The Ringer NFL Show - An NFL–Fantasy Football Crossover Mailbag

Episode Date: July 19, 2021

Kevin is joined by Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck from 'The Ringer Fantasy Football Show' to answer listener questions about the upcoming NFL and fantasy football season. Check out the second half of their conversation for bold predictions for the upcoming season on ‘The Ringer Fantasy Football Show’ feed. Click here to listen! Be sure to check out The Ringer’s 2021 Fantasy Football Draft Guide here! Host: Kevin Clark Guests: Danny Heifetz, Danny Kelly, and Craig Horlbeck Producer: Craig Horlbeck Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Gene and Roger is the story of the two most powerful, influential movie critics of their time, Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert. You can find Gene and Roger on the Big Picture feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's a quick trailer. It seemed like a crazy idea for a TV show. Take two rivals and let them duke it out about movies. But Gene Sisko and Roger Ebert quickly became the most popular film critics in the country. Millions of viewers tuned in to see whether they vote thumbs up or thumbs down. This is the story of two unlikely superstars who changed the way we argue. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Brian Raftery, and this is Gene and Roger.

Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I am Kevin Clark, joined by the fantasy football guys, two of my favorite people, Danny Hypenes and Danny Kelly, and then Craig Horleback. Wow. Hot start for Kevin. Hi, Craig. How you doing, buddy? Good.

Great to see you. I'll resume, Kevin. great to see you. We're doing a mailbag today. It is fantasy football season. What's the earliest Danny Hyphus that you could conceivably do a fantasy draft and it be acceptable?

Dude, Danny Kelly's been drafting since like April. He was doing rookie drafts before the draft. He never stops. He always is drafting. Yeah, but this is dynasty stuff. But for like substantial leagues with your buddies. I think you have to wait to at least the middle of the preseason.

But like, realistically, there's a point where in theory you want to be close to the season, but I would always prioritize being, if you can get your whole league together and all your friends in one place, if it's three or four weeks before the season, I don't care. I'd rather, like, actually be physically in person, obviously if it's safe for wherever you're at. But that's always the ideal. Early August, I think you can get away with you.

Like early August. Yeah. Anytime in the month of August, you can all get together. It works. My buddies in 2003 had our fantasy draft the day of the evening that Michael Vic broke his leg. And that was the fantasy apocalypse for me. Wow. I did a fantasy basketball draft one year, but just scheduling-wise, We had to do it the day of the first game of the night season.

And I drafted Gordon Hayward like 20 minutes before he broke his leg. And that sucked. Tough one. Danny, any other traumatic, Danny Kelly, any traumatic drafting stories for you? Since you've been drafting for seven months. Let's just make the whole episode, the time when we drafted the guy who got dropped, like literally the day they drafted him. No. There's a lot of those things.

The point is just wait because injuries happen in the preseason. Injuries happen in training camp. Wait as long as possible. It feels like every year, though, it's harder and harder to get your groups of friends together. So just keep that in mind. That sounds like an adult, like an adulthood take. It is, it is. That's DK telling people not to have children.

Yeah. The sands of time. Wow, I didn't know how dark this is going to get so early. All right, let's do a mailbag. I'm really excited about this. So just so everybody knows, housekeeping, we do this mailbag on the NFL show. And then I'm going to be the guest of the Danes and Craig. And I'm going to be a part of the Hot Takes episode,

which would be the second part of this episode. You also need to know about the fantasy football guide. We blasted it out this morning. Danny, what was the best? Danny Kelly, what's the best part of it? I think the best part of it is that you can draft and you can click on guys that have been drafted. So you can literally go on our draft guide

and use it to have our top-ranked players at the top of the board. It's just a really helpful draft tool. So I think that is the really cool part. Obviously, then, if you've seen my draft guide from the last couple of years, the NFL draft guide, it's the same format. KOC does the NBA draft guide too.

Very usable. The functionality is awesome. It looks beautiful. I can't take credit for that. But it's just really, really easy to use, really cool, and good, you know, obviously good content, too. Fantasyfootball. orgher.com. We really just want to make something that worked on any device you have.

I think a lot of fantasy guides just kind of are stuck in the desktop era. And I think the thing that I'm most proud of is, you can look at this on your phone and it's great. It's beautiful. honestly. Fantasyfootball.the ringer.com. I'm excited about it. I looked this morning. I loved it. I am fired up for this mailbag, for the guide for it all. We will start with the question from all 20Q. What's the most popular narrative that you are not buying Craig Horlebeck? I think it's that ever like that the Saints will just be good again and all the

fantasy players from the Saints are totally fine. Direct that to Danny Kelly who's been talking up the Saints all summer. I just don't think that we can think about Alvin Camara the same way we've thought about him the past four years. Everything is different. He doesn't have the ultra-efficient Drew Brees as his quarterback. Alvin Camara doesn't get any touches. His whole thing is that he's like crazy super efficient. And now he might be quarterbacked by the least efficient quarterback of all time.

Or Taysam Hill, who's going to take all these. Yeah, I was actually curious which of those was the least efficient quarterback of all time. Which is a problem. Yeah. Danny Kelly. I mean, that's fair. Yeah, that's a fair assessment. And my answer to this question is kind of like in the same line of thought that I think everyone is assuming James Winston is going to be the starter or that's the prevailing thought right now that he is the guy.

It would be stupid of the Saints to go back to Taysam Hill. I think that's kind of the general narrative. I'm not buying it. I think that at worst, it's a open competition and probably more likely I think that Tassum has the edge. I'm starting to really believe that Tassum is going to be the starter, not James Winston. You know, it's one of those things where I don't really understand what happened from the regular season to the off season where all of a sudden people think that Sean Payton prefers James Winston as the starter after he did not start James Winston as his starter when Drew Breeze went down. I don't really understand that leap in logic. I think it's people having wishful thinking that they want James to start because he would be so much more exciting and fun and interesting, at least from a fantasy point of view, because, you know, he's done the,

you know, just crazy amounts of passing, crazy amounts of touchdowns, obviously lots and lots of picks to go with it. But unfortunately for people that want that, I just don't see it happening again. I mean, there's a chance, clearly, that he could end up being a starter. But I don't think it's as clear cut

as everyone's making it out to be. I want to zag here, because you said from a fantasy perspective, Winston's more interesting choice because he's throwing a lot of touchdowns, isn't Tayson Hill? Doesn't he have the potential to actually be one of the most interesting fantasy players?

Yes. For himself. Yeah, for the quarterback position. Yeah, yeah, not for Michael Thomas. That would be disaster. I'm saying that Taysam Hill. Absolutely. I mean, he could be a QB1.

I mean, his rushing upside, his ability to be featured in the red zone, like he's a legit full bat. They like basically use him on power and stuff in the red zones, like Cam Newton in his prime. Not that they're the same player, but. No, I got you. They're the same player. We heard you.

Arjuna start working on that quote card. Yeah, God damn it. Yeah, but right, but is he good enough thrower? I mean, shit. Heifitz said that he'd rather have Jarvis Landry throw a pass last episode of the fantasy show than Taysam Hill. Wow, if Hifitz said it. I think Jarvis Landry has a better deep ball than Tassam Hill.

And I stand by it. Dude, do you guys remember the Tassum Hill deep ball from late in the season where it's like, I'm pretty sure it hit a rafter in the ceiling or something because it came straight down? And I don't know who caught it. I forget who caught it, but he had like come back for it. Literally come back like he was catching a fly ball. It wasn't great.

I'll admit that much. Kevin, do the Saints have a better record with James or with Taysom? Probably, probably with James. Probably with James. I think that the Taysom thing is interesting. I also think that why can't it be both? Why can't we just still do an expanded TASM experiment with James as the starter, the quote-unquote starter? I don't think that you need to make a decision one or the other.

You can go old Steve Spurier. Just bring in, bring in Tassum for third. down. Danny Hyfitz-Waring on the stance in 2021. I think it's interesting that Tayson Hill's making like four times more money than James's like, or at least three times I think. Like that's an underrated part of this. They're just paying James back up money and Tayson's getting like really bad tier quality starter money.

But I think that the most likely answer is to what you said, Kevin, is Sean Bain's just going to do both. It's going to be like third and 10, probably James and maybe like the idea of starting, like even starting pitchers in baseball the last couple of years has been like the concept of it's been rattled. I think that the concept of what a starting quarterback is. Sean Payton wants to play with that idea. But I also kind of lean toward,

I think that we used to have this joke that like Bill Belichick secretly wanted Brady gone so we could just play the Jacoby-Bresset game. And I think that's actually Sean Payton. Like, I think he's just excited to tweak with the starting quarterback concept in general. And I'm sure that we'll just mess with their opponents every week too.

Danny Hyphitz, you just have one word here on your answer for what popular narrative you're not buying. And I'd like you to expand on it. The word is Rogers. Oh, yeah, yeah. So the narrative that I'm not buying is that Rogers won't come to training camp. He's going to come. And I know that this is probably a little less mean.

This is more mainstream now. I think a lot of people now believe he's going to come. But I just think Rogers has a lot of Jamie Lannister in him. Like Kevin, you've talked to Rogers a lot about Thrones. I have no idea if Rogers would like this comparison. But I just can't stop thinking about there's this moment in Game of Thrones where Tywin Lannister, who's Jamie's father, is basically being like, stop caring what people think, you little dweeb.

and Jamie's like, I don't care what people think of me. And Tywin looks at him and is like, that's what you want people to think of you. And I just think that's Rogers. Like I think Rogers has this air that he wants to come off as if I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm an independent thinker. I think Rogers will care a lot if the Packers have,

what, a top three fan base in the country by number of people, top four. If those people who worship you, if he doesn't show up to camp, if he doesn't play the season, they're going to hate him. Like that really is underrated. To me, it's bigger than the money. obviously the number one loyalty

probably has is to the teammates. The thing that's underrated here is the Packers fan base will turn on him. And I just don't think that that's going to happen. So I think Roger shows up and I think that there will be a lot of fans will be really annoyed that we talked about the Rogers thing so much if he just shows up on day one.

I think Rogers will show up and play for the Packers. I don't know if it's day one. I also don't think that whether or not the Packers fans like him is high on his hierarchy of decision making. I actually think that he likes football. He realizes that if he plays this year, maybe there's a handshake agreement that he'll be traded in the offseason, something like that.

But I actually think he'd be generally okay with any sort of turn in the family. Obviously, nobody wants to be disliked. I'm just saying, I think that he's, there's, there's, he has other priorities. Danny Kelly, handicap the Packers thing for us. Like what are the odds I think that's going to happen? Yeah. There's two separate odds I want you to make. First is Aaron Rogers is at training camp day one.

on July 27th, and the second is he starts game one. So I think, I would say starting game one, I'd say 70%, like 70, 30 odds that he's going to start week one. And then I'd say probably like 55, 45, 45 that'll be there on day one of training camp. I'm leaning that he will, but I still think that there's, you know, he's got some leverage to and end the ability to sit out for a while. But the fines really do start adding up, right? Like, he could lose millions and millions dollars.

The Packers cannot pay that. But it's not just the money, though. It's like he loses $3 million if it doesn't come to camp. But like, Kevin, just the fact, this isn't a running back. This isn't Ezekiel Elliott showing up the week before the season and just plug in the starting lineup. Doesn't every single aspect of the Packers team get really screwed up if he's just not there for two weeks of camp and just shows up in mid-August? Like, he has to come to training camp on time if he wants to play in week one. doesn't he? At this point,

you think so? I feel like no. No. I don't. I don't think that. This is his 16th year. What is the latest Rogers could show up in playing week one? Danny, Danny, do you think if he shows up on August 6th? Matt Lafair is like, we're going to roll with Jordan Love? August 6th? Yeah, August 16th or 26th? I don't, I don't think so. No. I don't think you can just roll in. I think if he rolls in, I think if he rolls in at 10 the morning on the opening game Sunday, they're going to be like, welcome back, buddy.

Yeah, you want to talk. about who fans would hate. If Matt LaFleur didn't start Rogers, fans would hate LaFleur more than No, that's not true. If Rogers just doesn't air for a month and comes on the two days before, the fans are going to blame Matt LaFleur? Absolutely not. That's Rogers's fault. That's the, and that's the kind of out of it. You can't lead a football team by just skipping camp being like, hey guys, what's up? Let's play. Like, that's not how it works. He should sit out week one, let Jordan Love suck and then come in and be like, I'm back. That's the play. I don't think.

I don't think that it would be the optimum thing. Like, I don't think it would be the best thing for the Packers and Aaron Rodgers and skipped all of training camp. I'm just saying he'd still be better than Jordan Love. I guess all the football cliches of like Next Man Up. Like, people in the NFL believe that stuff. And I just think it's not the NBA where like a James Hardin sits out and comes in. They have to play.

Okay. They believe that when it's the left guard, not when it's from MVP. Yeah. Of the last season to the second year guy. Okay. Like, no one. I don't know. No.

I think. I think that Next Man Up has its limits is what I would say about that. All right. Next question. What should be the new standard of fantasy football that best reflects in real life NFL play? This is the question for Hyphitz because he is absolutely freaking obsessed with it. Everybody just turn your mics off for 10 minutes. There's been two rounds of fantasy scoring.

There's a play clock here, buddy. Okay. Oh my God. Fantasy football was invented like 50 years ago and they were like running back to the most important position. So running backs have an outsized influence on scoring. And then like 10 years ago, we all got ADHD and they gave us a PPR scoring because apparently the millennials were upset. And just a one catch for zero yards gives you a point, which is dumb, which is equal to first down. The best fantasy scoring should do two things. It should just make quarterbacks the most valuable

players in the NFL. It's kind of nuts that, oh yeah, you don't need Mahomes. Just wait on quarterback. Get Jalen Hertz. In real life, Mahomes should be the best player. Get Taysam Hill who might be QB1 according to D. Exactly. Any scoring where Taysam Hill can out do, Mahomes is a stupid. stupid. So either whether that means you have two quarterback leagues, which are my preference, or just making passing yards equal to rushing yards and passing touchdowns equal to receiving, whatever it is, just make quarterbacks the most valuable players. And then also, I just think points per first down should be a thing and points per reception should not be a thing.

That's what I think is ideal. Is anyone else want to take Danny's take? So, Hyfitts loves to get on one of so box about this. I think generally speaking, I do agree. However, I'm sort of in that mindset where I'm like, we're not fucking changing this. Like, it's not happening. PPR is. here to stay, deal with it, get over it. It's not like real football, and that's fine. This is fantasy football. This is how it works. I like points.

I like points. I like more points. I don't like when my starter score like six points. I want, you know, I want more points. It's why PPR is good. That's the millennial generation. Half PPR is the perfect middle ground. I feel like we can all agree on that. Hyphitz's a quarterback thing, I think actually makes a ton of

sense. Mahomes should be the first player picked in fantasy address. I don't know how to explain to people that Mahomes comes after Josh Jacobs. Yeah, I mean, it's not great. Your first downs thing, though, I can't get behind. I still think that, like, that's a bridge too far. But why isn't it bridge too far? The whole point of a drive is to get a first down. Why would just score fantasy based on EPA? This is not analytics. The only things that matter in football are yards, first downs, and touchdowns. Those are the three things that should be one points.

Danny. Expected points added. Doesn't matter, Hyfitz? Join Danny Hyfitt's DVOA Fantasy League. God. Launching. First, thousand. We're going to put a guide up. Let me be devil's advocate here, Danny Hyphitz. The Mahomes, Josh Allen, whoever it is, they've already got their football league where they can shine. It's called the NFL. Why can't we have a league where Josh Jacobs is a thing? Why can't we have a league where running backs who can catch out of the backfield go in the first round, even if they might not be the most famous guy?

Let's have a little bit of fun here, Danny. high fits. We already know who the best players in football are. We don't need to do it again. We don't need, you know, we don't need a league where we're just drafted in Quentin Nelson. Counting it twice. No, because it's way, no, because if you have a league where you can start Mahomes and Kyler Murray together next to each other and then you root for them on every play, it's a hell of a lot more fun than hoping, why are you taking out Chase Edmonds on third and five at the three yard line? Like, that's not fun. You feel like an idiot. The, like the reason fantasy is fun is you can root for certain players and the quarterbacks are the most

important players. The rules of fantasy football were just invented 50 years ago from when, as you have chronicled a lot, Kevin, just 50 running backs were the face of the league. 50 years ago? Yeah, no. The 70s? You know, the scoring of quarterback passing touchdowns are worth four and rushing touchdowns are worth six was straight up, I think, 1968, I believe. Wow. Perhaps we need an update to make quarterbacks a little more valuable over the last 50 years. Any of the thoughts on that's where I move on. Nope. No.

Nobody knows what's going on, but we watch the Olympics. We just turn on our TVs and become obsessed with sports we haven't thought about in four years. This is why we made the ringer guide to the summer games. I'm your host, Roger Sherman. Each day during the Tokyo Olympics, I'll tell you about a different sport, athlete, or storyline. We'll be releasing new episodes every day starting July 19th.

Follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. podcast so you know exactly how to watch the Olympics. Great question here from Couch Thoughts. Which mid-round player are you drafting a round early? Who's going over drafted Craig Horlebeck? So I'm drafted Tyler Higby probably two rounds early this year. So Tyler Higby for the first time in his career is without Gerald Everett, who was the titan on the Rams, who's now on the Seahawks.

Every single time that Gerald Everett has not been on the field, Tyler Higbee has gone insane. In 2019, Gerald Everett missed like the last five games of the season. Higby set a record. He had four straight 100-yard games. He was the overall tied-in one in the league. And then last year, Gerald Everett missed one game in the 2020 season. In that game, Tyler Higby had three touchdowns.

Tyler Higby is an incredibly athletic, productive tight-end, who now has the best quarterback of his career, who's probably going to be in the best offense the Rams have had in the last three years. I think Higby is going outside the top 100 right now. Super underrated. I love Higby. Wow. Okay. You have another guy here. Yeah, I like T. Higgins a lot. I just, honestly, this is just like, he's getting

disrespected because Jamar Chase is like the cool new shiny object. Yeah. And T. Higgins had honestly one of the better rookie wide receiver seasons we've had in a while, but he's been overshadowed by Justin Jefferson. And on teams that have three good receivers, like the Steelers, like the Cowboys, and like the Bengals, I like drafting the non-best guy because you're essentially getting... The most expensive guy, you should say. Correct. I like getting the second or third most expensive guy

because you're essentially drafting upside. Basically, like, take someone like Alan Robinson. His projection right now, when you look at him on whatever website, the ringer, he's projected out his max. There's pretty much no other scenario where he sees significantly more targets or production or yards than what his current projection suggests because he's the guy. There's no one else. The Bengals Trio leaves a lot of food on the table.

So if anything happens to one of them, the other one's projections go through the roof and they could have an incredible season. So that's kind of why I like these guys. Like I said, like the Cowboys, like the Steelers, the Jujus, the Cedes, the Gallops. Because I just think they have so much more upside than guys who don't have much competition on their team. So I think T. Higgins is awesome. He's also Best Shape of My Life guy narrative this year. Sounds like he came into camp and the coaches are blown away at his explosiveness, which is cool. Oh.

Yeah. Has anyone ever come in? had like the worst shape of their life. Zeeke. Yes, many times. Zeke. Ben, every single year except this year.

I wish as some of the stewarders writers were pointing out, like we saw Ben in minicamp like a month ago and he wasn't in the best shape of his life. And like too, he is, he is cranking right now. He is so healthy. Okay.

Keto Ben. Could you imagine? Like that, I just, I think that was perfect. Like that was, I needed that in the middle of July. It's just a random Ben,

Ruther is in the best shape of his life story. Absolutely. And the whole thing about Ben is he's obsessed with losing weight, which is like, I don't think for the last like 17 years. Obsessed. Obsessed. All right. I just have a question.

Maybe St. St.erson, help me. What is considered the, like, the best shape of Ben Routherstberger's life previously in the NFL? Like, is there a year where he came in and he was just shredded and he had a great season? I don't really remember. Ben's never been better than when he's hurt midgame and then comes back with whatever they inject into him, that's when he's in his best shape.

We also need to know if there's like a local Pittsburgh like parogi shop or something where he's been a regular scene and he just hasn't been seen since like June began. Maybe that's what's going on here. Sounds like a hype at story. Danny Kelly, who we overdrafting? So Damian Harris for the Patriots is a guy that I've been kind of grabbing up. And in

the mock drafts that I've been doing, he is sort of the last quote unquote starter for like an NFL team knows how many how many mock drafts have you done? I don't know. Not that many, honestly.

Probably like five or six. I've been doing a few for like for, I've been doing a few of these mock drafts for like other publications around, you know, around the world. Mike Reese from ESPN recently said that Damien Harris is the decisive RB1 for the Patriots. Because like the Patriots every year, it's always like who is this guy,

who's going to be the lead guy, who's going to get the most volume? We never know. Just take the cheapest guy. I think Damien Harris is going to be the guy who gets the most volume this year. specifically on early downs. I think that, you know, that's the big deal. But because he hasn't been used in the passing game as much.

But I think at the end of the day, like, at the point in the draft where you're grabbing him, he is the last guy who's going to get significant volume in my mind. Unless an injury happens, then, you know, that's a reason to take a few guys really late in the draft. But to me, Damien Harris is a guy I'm grabbing before the cliff really comes. And then same sort of deal as Trace Sermon for the 49ers, I think, is going to end up being the starter for the 49ers. I do like Rahim Oster, but I just not sure if I can necessarily trust him to carry a heavy load and be the guy all the way through the season. He's already kind of popped up with some injuries this off season. So, you know, they traded up in the draft to grab him. They clearly

liked him. It sounds like he came in and during OTAs and was really impressive. He took like first team reps with the guys and they really like what they're seeing. So Sermon is another guy. I'm kind of just betting. I don't know if it's just a gut feel. or whatever, but I'm just betting that he's going to be the guy in San Francisco, but, you know, after a few weeks. I didn't, like most people, it was kind of hard to follow college football last year. And I remember watching the Big Ten championship game and seeing Trace Arman run for 150 yards every single time that he ran the ball.

And then, like, doing anything other, he would just run until he got tired of something and be like, all right, that was a cool 27-yard run. I'll just stop for now. It was like, it was climbing a mountain. It was just like, yeah, I'll just take a little break. like he was he was so good in that game yeah um and i saw that and i was like this guy is either the northwestern defensive line is the worst i've ever seen which is possible but i don't think so or tray sermon is is an NFL running back so i'm i'm totally totally with you danny hyfitz

well first i just want to shout the trace sermon meme from the championship game when he looked in the camera that was fantastic but the player he had a huge game on and off was unbelievable but the the guy i'm reaching for in drafts this year i just love mike davis like i have already talked about him ad nauseum on the fantasy show. But I love Mike Davis. I just think he's a boring player with a boring name on a boring team. So he gets no love. But this is the starting running back for an offense that I think will be better, even

that Julio's gone. I know that sounds crazy to say. But I think they're going to actually be winning more games because the Falcons have terrible luck last year. They're going to win more games. And Mike Davis is the starter. But his name's Mike Davis. So who wants to take Mike Davis over like J.K. Dobbins?

Nobody. The list goes on and on. The boring named players get the shaft every year. It's not fair. I want to get a non-biased opinion. Obviously, High Fitz and Craig and I argue about this a lot. But do you think that the Falcons

are the most boring team in the NFL? Or even in like the bottom five? So I think that they have, we have to see how this all shakes out. I think first year head coach, I think that Kyle Pitts gives them a floor.

It's a little higher than normal. I think they have the chance to be the most boring team or one of the most boring teams, but I also think they have the chance to be kind of sneaky fun. Am I crazy? Kyle, Kyle Pitts changes it. They still have Matt Ryan.

I mean, it's not like they have. But from 2018 to 2020, I would say they were the most boring team. I would say now that they have Kyle Pitts and traded Julio, they've sued that. I think the Carolina Panthers are in their own division and they could, they could be more boring. How about the lions? The lions. Yeah. Are we sure that the Falcons aren't going to be more exciting than the Vikings?

Yeah. Are we sure that the Falcons are going to be bad? Are we even sure they're going to be bad? What if Arthur Smith comes in? It's just like turns this team around. You can be good and boring. I guess the Raiders aren't boring. They've got some interesting guys.

No, the Raiders are surprisingly boring on the, like the Raiders are actually quietly, another extremely boring team. On the field, off the field, they're pretty fun. Right. Everything else, the John Gruden of it all. That's all crazy. Mark Davis is a cartoon character.

But like the team is actually about, as boring as there is in the NFL. I think that there's not really degrees of boring. There's just you pass the threshold and then I'm just like, I don't care about this team. I don't want to watch this team.

It's the mad men thing where it's like, I don't think about you at all. Do you think about Derek Carr ever? Or Matt Ryan? Yeah. I think of both of them, yes. It's my job to think about them.

She tries to time. I don't know any. Look, I challenge everyone listening right now to tell me two things about Matt Ryan other than he was drafted by the Falcons. He lost the Super Bowl with the Boston College. No one knows anything else about Matt Ryan.

He's an amazing. golfer and his nickname, his nickname is not anything about his demeanor. It's about that he used to just crush Natty Isis in college a lot. Okay, there we go. There we go. I can keep going on Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan, Matt Ryan, interesting guy. All right. Um, tight end is from John. Tide end is a wasteland and a struggle every season. Should they be a required position in leagues or instead just replace it with another flex spot? Also, can everyone just get rid of kickers? I don't, I don't want to do the kickers thing. because we've been doing kickers since 1968. The kickers debates 1968, as Danny Hyfitz has been talking about.

But I do want to do the tight end thing. Aiden in the modern NFL is obviously a crop of, I think you should leave me. What a crop of tight ends at the very top. And then it gets dark pretty quickly. I'll start with you, Craig. Tight end. Keep it or dump it. Keep it.

I don't know if I'm a traditional list. But if it's a position in the NFL, I want it to be a position on my fantasy football team. I also think it makes people like Travis Kelsey more valuable, which I think is cool because he's that valuable in the NFL. You know, he's the only guy going in the first round of drafts at tie-in, and I think that's cool, and I think that should stay. I have my, one of the fantasy out takes later is about position scarcity of the tight-end position.

Danny Hyfitt's tight-end? I'm going to ask you a question, Kevin, because it's like, yeah. So Mike Gisicki lined up in the slot, like 90% of his, is he a tight-end? Like, this to me is less about fantasy, more reflection of the real league, is should Mike Gisicic be a tight-end? a receiver. Right. This is like Jimmy Graham saying that he was a wide receiver and not a tight end in arbitration. And

I believe he lost that case. But it all came down to like it was actually crazy. It was just like they, it was about blocking and there was testimony and all that stuff and it was really fascinating. Anyway, I think that we kind of understand in the spirit that like Mike Gaseki is a

tight end and not a wide receiver. Like I'm not like Kyle Pitts and we'll get to him a little later on the second part of this thing. But you know, Daniel Jeremiah's line was that even if you hate absolutely hate Kyle Pitts's blocking, if you just make him wide receiver, he'd still be worth the top five pick, right? So I understand that part of it, but I think it's pretty, I don't think there's that many guys who are actual borderline. A tight end is a tight end. And until those positions merge a little more, I don't think we have to worry about it. So Danny,

tight end? What do you want to do? So I say keep them. I agree with everything you just said. I say keep them but tight end premium leagues i play in quite a few of those and i really like them so basically it's ppr but tight ends get 1.5 ppr um and it's it's a good mix because the best tight ends in the nfell kettl uh you know waller they're extremely extremely valuable but you can get more and you can play at like either tight end or flex you can play some of the like quote lower level tight end guys where you know it actually pays to have those players on your roster it pays to kind of like dig in and and try and figure out who's going to be the guy this year so i think it just expands kind of like what you have to do the strategy i don't necessarily like the idea of eliminating

tight ends all together because then you only literally there's only like three guys we're paying attention to so i don't know to me that just takes guys out of the player pool it's less fun so that's my that's my take on it's kind of like the NBA where like the all the all NBA like roster there's been so much debate about what should the positions you vote for in the NBA. It's not that different positionless stuff. All right. Mango asks, which team do you think will overachieve and which team will underachieve the most, Danny Hyfitz?

Underachieve, overachieve. I think, so I guess it's relative to expectations, but I think overachieve, to me, it's Washington. I think Washington could win the division over the Cowboys, and I just think that Washington really will have a top three defense this year, if not like the best defense. I think Chase Young is unbelievable. I think Ryan Fitzpatrick is a sneakily huge upgrade,

even though he's Ryan Fitzpatrick, because he kind of has to be a game manager. This will probably, pretty easily be the best defense he's ever played with. They have to figure out the offensive line, but like I just think Washington's really great. The team that I think is the underachiever is the Steelers. I mean, I hate to say it, but like,

so Mike Thomas never had a losing record as a coach. I kind of think the Steelers have a losing record this year. And I hate to say it, but just they just went from a team whose strength was like a lot of depth to now they're just top heavy. Like it's not clear who's across going to be the rushing from T.J. Watt. They just lost a lot of depth on defense and depth is really important there.

Their line can't really get worse, so even it gets better. I just think the whole offense built is built around Ben's limitations. It feels to me like the Giants just holding on Elon Manning for a year too long a few years ago. I just don't,

I think this is a team who's just too committed to Ben, but like I just don't believe the, I don't think that they're going to be nearly as competitive as last year. Danny Kelly? So first of all, I kind of want to disagree with the Steelers take.

Get me. Get me, DK. Craig is too close to it. He's a Steelers fan, so I'm going to let him just sit there and seethe for a while. But I just see the Steelers as... Craig is the most cynical Steelers fan of the planet. He's not going to bring out the Palm Palm to the 2021 Steelers. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Regardless, for me, it's just the Steelers have too much talent.

I know that they're maybe not as deep. They're certainly not as deep as you'd like to be. And the Big Ben question is a valid... Like, that's a valid, valid concern. But for me, I'm just looking at, like, the skill players they have. Like, they got nausea this offseason. They're a trio of really good receivers. They've got some star-level players on defense.

I don't know. I'm just looking at them. I don't think they're going to be bad. They might not be elite. But I don't think they're a losing team. That's just my take. But we can move on from that. One team I want to talk about that might overachieve.

And this is mostly based on the narrative and I think the general feel for it right now. but I kind of think the Jaguars are going to be better than people think. I'm not saying they're going to be good. I'm going to say, I'm a big believer in Trevor Lawrence. I think he's going to raise the floor significantly, significantly on offense. And everybody's worried about Urban Meyer, and I think that's fair. But I don't think it's going to be the point where they're just like getting boat raced or whatever. I think that Trevor Lawrence is good enough to really raise the floor of this team.

I think they're going to be competitive. I think they've got some really exciting talent on both sides of the ball. So I don't think they're going to be the train wreck that everyone thinks they're going to be. And that Urban Meyer is going to be, I don't think the Urban Meyer is going to be as bad as people think right now. Huh. I agree with the Urban Meyer take. I do agree with that. And that's something I've been pretty consistent on all offseason.

It's everybody, you can enter this league in a couple of different ways. Like Lou Holtz famously coached the Jets. And after like five weeks was like, God did not put Lou Holtz on this. to Coce the NFL. He literally said that. Nick Sabin basically said I didn't like how little control I had over the process, whether that's the draft of free agency and moved on. Jimmy Johnson built one of the best dynasties the last 50 years.

And Chip Kelly was up and down in a bit of a roller coaster, but his schemes obviously had success. I think the Urban Meyer's schemes can have success. I think he's one of the, you know, if you just look at the innovations he's had, I think there's something there. I just think that the talent's going to take a little while. to catch up. That division's pretty weak, though, so they'll win some games that we probably think

they shouldn't this year, but I don't know. I think they'll be fine. Did you say you're underachieve? No, so I didn't think about this a lot beforehand, but I'm, the team that I'm just coming back to is the Cardinals, and it's not because I don't believe in Kyler. I do believe in Kyler, but I'm just still sort of... They're going to get beat up. I'm just still sort of waiting for what, like, what is Cliff Kingsbury? What is he going to bring? Is he going to bring this like, four wide, super awesome air rate offense, or is it going to be

more closer to what we saw last year and year before? I just am not quite ready to jump on board with the Cardinals. I think that they have a lot of talent, but are they going to be able to get enough? How are they winning games in that division? Yeah, and it's a tough division,

really, really tough division. So that's the team that I kind of just first went to where I'm not quite sure I'm ready to see them like turn into this high-level playoff team yet. But who knows? I don't think that I don't I think the clips probably I think he's going to get some bad luck because of that division there's three really good teams in that and I think that it might be over for

our boy now I just don't see a path forward for them to have a decent season am I does anybody disagree with me good you don't have uh you don't have anybody listed here I like the chargers to overachieve this year I mean they're pretty much a different completely different team than they were two years ago they've been riddled by injuries like that's the whole story on the charges every off season. If they can stay healthy, they have Brandon Staley now.

I think their defense is going to be borderline of top 10 defense. And they have a brand new offensive line essentially with Herbert. Like, I don't really know what there is to not like. I guess a completely new coaching staff with Lombardi at the O.C. And Staley coaching maybe could cause some hiccups and a slow start. But I just, I mean, the Chargers went seven to nine last year, I think. I don't think it'd be that crazy for them to win 10, 11 games this year. No, not at all.

I mean, that's, that's the upgrade. They also got super unlucky. I will say that saying the chargers will have better luck is a recipe for disaster. True. I will go to this one. Danny, you have a lot of thoughts on this one. This is from Petrecore. Is there a position ranking that ends up on championship rosters more than others,

e.g., a top five running back is on 70% of teams, a top three wide receiver, or top seven wide receiver, top three tight end, for example. Danny Hyfitz, you have a lot of notes here. You've been thinking about this. This is since 1968, this has been roaming around in your mind. And now it's time. Hit us with it. Well, it's just worth know.

I think there's a couple things worth knowing is that every, like, every year there's a player that just disproportionately gives you a great chance to make the playoffs to win your championship. So, like last year, I think 70% of the teams that picked up James Robinson from the Jaguars made the fantasy playoffs in ESPN. That's incredible. And then I think a few years ago, like 2018, 40% of the teams that had Christian McCaffrey won their championship.

Not made the championship. Like, won the championship 40%. That's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah. I'm sure that I don't have it in front of me. These numbers are on ESPN, but like, specifically, I'm sure that Alvin Camero must have had a similar impact last year.

But just the point being, like, there are certain players that you're targeting because really, my point is that as you get later in your draft, you want upside. the first two or three rounds you want a mix of upside like you want a player could be great but you also just don't want to strike out and then later you can start swinging for the fences because you do want that kind of player dk mentioned trace sermon before depending where you can get him if you can get maybe the lead rusher for the san francisco 49ers and kail shannon that's a home run kind of player but it's worth targeting guys who could blow up lamar jackson tiers gun 2019 was going outside the top 100 i believe more than half the teams who had lamar jackson made the fantasy change championship. So you do want those kind of home runs. Yeah, it could be like Trey Lance. If Tray Lance starts week four and just explodes, I honestly think it's really waiver wire. Like, to be honest, we're all pretty much the same at drafting. You and your friends in your league, your teams are all probably going to be pretty even unless one person's way better than the other. And if everybody has, you know, if no one gets hurt, I feel like everyone's teams are pretty similar.

So what you really got to do is it's whoever is the guy who can grab DeMarco Murray in week four five years ago when he started to take off, it's grabbing the Justin Jefferson. last year. Being like the way, the proactive waiver wire dude in your league, I think is the most

important way to win your league. The most practical advice is just cut your kicker after the draft and just keep it as an extra bench spot until week one because you want those kind of players and you could do that like every week.

You don't even have to draft a kicker. Don't draft a kicker. Yeah. Thinking outside the box, Craig is the Belichick of fantasy football. I think Belichick likes special teams too much to cut the kicking. No,

remember didn't he cut the long snapper before week one a couple years ago, or like four or five years ago, and then there was a fumbled snap in the first, or maybe it was the holder. I don't remember. He played some, let me tell you something.

Bill Belichick loves one thing more than special teams, and it's ruthless salary cap management. I forget what the actual thing was. All right. So here's one that I actually didn't want to ask, but you guys want to ask. So, Timmy, if Drew Locke was a cheese, what cheese would he be,

Danny Hyphitz. Wait, who actually put this in here? Danny Kelly? I did. Okay, Craig. You lead the way since you have an answer already. I wrote Pepperjack. I did 10 seconds of research. I literally Google list of cheeses and he's like, oh, I think he's Peppercheck. What's the worst cheese? You know, every once in a while. What cheese are you trying, actively trying to replace? I don't love Pepper Jack, to be honest. And it works, it works rarely. Once in a while, it's great, but on most things, it doesn't work at all. You can't put it on pasta. It doesn't work on pizza. It works in like a spicy sandwich, which is, I mean, Drew Locke, like one in every 20 throws. You're like, wow, that was amazing. Or one in every 20 scramblers, like, wow, that was amazing. But it's just,

it can't go with most things. That's good. I think he's maybe a craft single, because you know how craft single is technically not cheese? That's a piece of milk. I think that Drewlock technically may not be a quarterback. Should have played basketball. What is a craft single? It's like how Subway Bread isn't really bread legally because there's too. Oh, it's like sugar? Yeah. It's just kind of a gelatinous goo, but it's really good. It's like dove soap isn't soap.

Like it's a beauty bar, but you have a dove box in your home. Like, you look for the word soap on there. It's not there. Many years ago, I used to go, when I lived in Miami, I would go to this store, this Cuban store. Now I would get a buffalo chicken sandwich every day. After like two months, this guy behind the counter. I was like, you really like these.

And I was like, yeah, it's my daily lunch. I do it before I go into work. And he goes, it's so good, and I can't believe it's not chicken. And I had no idea what it was, and I just kind of stopped, backed away, and just said, okay, I'm not going to have this buffalo chicken sandwich anymore because I don't know further questions, you're on it. That's the Broncos and that's Drew Locke to me. That's true luck to me. Danny Kelly, Drew Locke. First place my mind went, Swiss cheese, because there's a lot of holes in his game.

Oh. Oh, my God, you're a dad. Oh, boy. Thank you. Calvin would love that one. Thank you. Oh, boy. All right.

Jared asks, which NFL players would be the best at playing fantasy football? So I have some takes on this. I think it's either it's a young quarterback who played in a modern spread offense. I mean, like a little bit like whether that's Kyler or like you think about, you think about, you think about, even like a guy a little different, but someone like Joe Burrow who just understands the value of the skill guys around him and understands

what it takes to have those guys. Because you don't really need any football expertise. You just need the ability to understand which skill guys to get. That'd be my take. So, Kyler or Joe Burrow would be my one too. Danny Hyvitz. Kyler's a good one because I think you really just want someone who's extremely freaking competitive.

I think my answer's Brady, just because I feel like he's the most competitive guy. And then also, you could also, there's also the joke that all the players will come to him and want to play with him. But I actually just think you want the most competitive dude. The person who spends the most time on their team usually wins. He would create his own company full of people that would do research on, you know, probabilities of every player and everything.

Like he'd be the TB12 method at fantasy. Just like you said, though, High Fitz, he's so competitive, so smart. I feel like, yeah. I think I'd take a running back. I think I'd pick like Derek Henry because he understands his own value and he would just draft running back. That on yourself, baby. Right, yeah. He's like, I understand that we matter.

taking me, I'm taking Zeke, McCavery. Do you think that when players are in fantasy leagues that there's a rule that no one else is allowed to draft them? Do we have any idea how many actual players play fantasy? Is it extremely rare? Do you think it's common? Maurice Jones Drew

did it, right? The craziest story I've heard is that Matt Hasselbeck when he was the starting quarterback for the Seahawks benched himself, I believe in favor of Peyton Manning, and then Matt Housselbeck had five touchdowns, 450 yards at the best game of his career. Yeah.

Let's see. Maurice Jones drew accused Greg Jones of fantasy football sabotage at one point. So that's exciting. There should be a players league. Hung him out to dry on a goal line play for fantasy football purposes. Wow.

You know who wouldn't be good? Nick Chubb for going down at the one-yard line. It's good football. Am I misremembering that? He did that last year, right? Yes. I have a take on that

that's going to be in the next episode. Speaking of, 45 minute mark, which means it is time for the second episode you can find it over on the fantasy football feed. I'm relinquishing

hosting duties to Danny Hyfitz. I'm just a guest. I'm just a lowly guest. What do I get when I enter the Finns football lounge? Do I get like a robe? Well, we have a whole gift package. We can follow up with you that.

We can follow up with you later. It's like your whole care package. We have dove beauty bars, Kraft's eaters for you. There's a whole stuff. There's a whole list of stuff. Slippers. Technically what it says.

Flippers is what I was looking for. Thank you, Craig. Thank you to Arjuna Ramkopol for production and Craig Horleback, who's calling his own number today. Rare player coach appearance of Craig Horlebeck here on the Ringrenfielsen. Next up on this feed is Flying Coach. Find the second part of this episode on the Ring of Pannis Football Feed wherever you get your podcast.

We'll see you next week.