The Ringer NFL Show - Are the Broncos Sean Payton’s or Russell Wilson’s Team? What Will Jonathan Taylor Be Doing Week 1 of the NFL Season? | Extra Point Taken

Episode Date: July 31, 2023

'Extra Point Taken' is back! Sheil and Ben have some camp questions that need answers. How safe is Sean Payton’s job in Denver? Would ownership let Russell Wilson be benched if he’s playing poorly in the middle of the season? With the future of RB pay looking bleak, how will Jon Taylor manage his contract situation as he heads into the final year of his deal? Plus, how much stability or instability is there at the QB position across the league? The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Ben Solak and Sheil Kapadia Producer: Cliff Augustin Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Music Composed by: Devon Renaldo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Right now on the ringer game on feet and all throughout the entire month of August, the East Coast bias boys are getting you ready to bet the NFL this season. We're going through each and every single division and revealing our favorite futures, predicting division winners, and even giving you some award winners. Do we think the Kansas City Chiefs will repeat or will they be the throne? Tune in now to find out on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Extra Point Taken. That's right. We're back.

Shield Capadia joined by Ben Solac on the Ringer NFL feed. The official start of the 20-23 season training camps are underway. We've got takes. If you haven't joined us before, we go back and forth. We don't tell each other what we're going to talk about before we get started. And then one of us ends with an extra point taken. So Benjamin, the topic today, burning questions for training camp. These are things we want answered in the next month between now and week one.

First of all, how are you doing? I'm about to say. You don't want to say how to me. We haven't been together on a pod in the NFL feed in like two months, but that's fine. Right to business with Sheel. I mean,

I had a great summer. Thanks for asking. I couldn't get past your hair. The hair looks phenomenal, so I was going to start there. I don't know if you've got a new routine or whatever. But yeah, I already know you're doing well. We've already communicated.

Well, yeah, but not on the NFL feed. You have to like the facsimile. You have to keep up the pretenses for the listeners. We have extra point takens back. Season two, all right? It's bad. And no better thing to start it on. on the training camp tour

because we came up with the whole idea for the show in a wonderful restaurant in La Trobe, Pennsylvania, whose name is escaping me, but it's a show. Was it Sharkey's? I feel like, Sharkies, I believe it was. It was a shark involved. Yes.

It was something with a Y apostrophe, yes. It had that, you know, that sort of vibe. And we were like, well, what if we just didn't tell each other what we were going to talk about? And that was the whole concept. And then we'll do an extra point because of a football thing. And now we're back with even more extra points in year two.

That's how you bring a podcast back from the summer, shield. Jot that down. You should probably be hosting. That was much better than what I did. So Ben said it all. Ben's going to start us off. What is your first question that you want an answer to in the next month? Yeah. So I definitely wanted to ask some question about this Sean Payton, Nathaniel Hackett, Aaron Rogers fiasco that we've enjoyed over the last few days. And what the question that I keep coming back to internally is, what does Sean Payton want out of this Broncos joke?

because I think that I think the prevailing mindset, the prevailing opinion from NFL viewers and analysts on the outside is that Sean Payton has a huge deal, right? Mike Cliss, who's longtime successful Broncos reporter reported about a five-year contract somewhere between $17 to $20 million, big contract. Payton is very well established as the head coach of the Broncos for the foreseeable future. Russell Wilson, if you pinch your nose and you squint your eyes and you hold your brain, you could get out of that contract after just one year. So the large outside understanding of things is like Payton's kind of more of the establishment

future of the Broncos than Wilson is. And accordingly, like, you know, Peyton doesn't need to fix Russell Wilson to keep the job. Peyton can try to fix Russell Wilson and fail and then they can move on from Russell Wilson and it'll just become Sean Payton's team. And that, again, like that, I think is the prevailing outside view. And I think I agree with it. But I'm not as convinced I think a lot of people are that that's the case, right? like Sean Payton was retired.

He interviewed for the Broncos job. Like it didn't, it wasn't like a slam dunk right away, right? They were interviewing other people. They went back to Jim Harbaugh. They were trying to snag Demiko Ryan's at the last hour. Payton interviewed with the Cardinals. Like there was like a big Peyton to Cardinals push.

Like that was going to happen. And then that kind of fell by the wayside. Peyton ends up back with Denver. But it's not like Sean Payton kicked down the door of retirement and said, I'm coming back into coaching and I want Denver. It's not like this was a match made in heaven. Nor is it the case that the Broncos under new ownership group, right,

Walter Penner group said, all right, we're firing Nate Hackham. We want Sean Payne. We need him in the building. He was certainly one of their lead candidates. And they really tried to present the searches if he always was. But that was not the case. This team was flying to Michigan to try to get Jim Harbour to leave the University of Michigan job, right? So it's not like this was a match made in heaven.

So I don't, like, I'm not sold at Payton like, you know, all he ever wanted was to work with George Payton, the GM. And all he wants is to fix Russell Wilson. when he talks about the job, he talks about, you know, installing the running game and improving the offensive line, and he talks about improving Russ, and I think that he has a really good plan for doing so.

And the easiest way that Sean Payton's life becomes good, Sean Payton's life becomes nice and fun as the head coach of the Broncos, is if he fixes Russ, right? It's not if he lets Russ expire and they take on a massive dead cap, and he has to go and figure out how to make a rookie work. Like, Sean Payton hasn't worked with a rookie quarterback, and I was very young, The last time Sean Payton was working with a rookie quarterback, right?

And coaches generally don't like working with rookies. And so I could see Payton being like, I came here because I think I have a good plan to fix Russ. I think I'm going to be able to fix Russ. And this is my path to least headaches, right? And then he does this Nate Hackett thing, which like, what? So for anybody who missed it, Payton made a comment a few days ago to Jared Bell of USA Today, saying that Nathaniel Hackett, who's his predecessor as the coach of the Broncos, did quote, one of the worst coaching jobs in the history of the NFL.

And then he later clarified them by saying, listen, I had one of those moments where I still had my Fox hat on and not my coaching hat on, which is a hilarious qualifier. They say, sorry, when I said that, I was acting like somebody whose job it is to honestly evaluate NFL coaches. Also, by the way, he never said anything remotely interesting at Fox. So this is like much better.

This was much better than he ever was as a TV. I just find it so funny to be like, sorry, When I said that, I was being an analyst of the game, whose job it is is to tell NFL fans how coaches are doing. Yeah, so you meant what you said pretty much. Like, what do you? This doesn't help? This hurts.

And then Aaron Rogers gets interviewed by Peter Schrager for NFL Plus Red Zone Day. And he says that, keep my coach's name out of your mouth because he loves Nate Hackkin. It's become this whole hullabaloo. And is Sean Payton throwing darts at Nate Hackett because he's trying to soften the ground for the Broncos being bad in 2022? like, oh, there's no way I could recover with this guy did in a year. Is he legitimately just like,

for the love of the game, the pureness of coaching, really upset with the thing that Nate Hackett did? Or is he like, hey, this is going to be a really easy solve, but we're going to be good in 2022 because Hackett was so bad. It's addition by subtraction. Like, I don't, I don't,

I do not get what Sean Payne's in this for, to be very, like, besides the enormous contract, which I totally get as a whole reason for itself, I'm still not convinced fully in either direction that Sean Payton's here to fix for us and win in 2022 with the Broncos. I'm not convinced he's here to just cash a check. I'm not convinced he's here to just wait out the Russ era and draft the guy.

I don't know what he wants. And I'll know by like October, because we'll know if the Broncos are good or not, and his path will be decided. But I'd like to figure that out between now and then. First of all, I think he was just answering the question, honestly, with no guardrails, which I will never ask a coach, an NFL personality to apologize for. I love coaching rivalries. This adds more juice to Broncos' jets.

I would like him to just go after another coach, you know, this week. Be like, I don't know what the Eagles were thinking, bringing in Matt Patricia. Have you seen that guy? That guy's terrible. Something like Joe Judge. Listen, there are a lot of guys out there. Urban Meyer. Why's no one going after Urban Meyer?

Someone asked Sean Payton about Urban Meyer. You should put your money where your mouth is, be the change you want to see in the world and go after some NFL podcasters right now. Let's hear it. Who do you not like? Coaches. Listen, everybody knows I'm all class. Not really.

But so I appreciate it. It gave us content for a news cycle, so I don't think Sean Payton should apologize at all. I think your question is a good one. I don't know when we're going to find the answer to it. But version 2.0 of Sean Payton is so interesting because like you said, he didn't wait for the ideal job. He didn't say, let me wait a year, see if that Chargers job opens up and I can go coach Justin Herbert. He didn't say, you know, let me go somewhere where I can be coach and GM and I'm just their number one target. Like you said, the Broncos, by all indications, had like a couple of other guys that fell through.

And Sean Payton, as weird as it sounds, was their number three option. And Sean Payton was interviewing at other places as well. So I am interested to see how it plays out. And now what he wants from it, I think the answer is pretty simple. It's like ego, you think you're an all-time great coach. You just saw, you know, you want to get back into it. These guys can't stay away. Most of them, except for like Bill Cowher, they have that it.

they need to get back into it. He watches a franchise like the Broncos do what they did last year, and he's just ripping them to shreds internally or off camera when he's at Fox. And he goes, like, there's enough talent on that team. He said, Jerry Judy, Cortland Sutton, they were really injured on the offensive line. Last year, Russell Wilson, not my favorite quarterback. Come on, but you saw what I did with guys like Teddy Bridgewater and Tassum Hill late in my career. You look at that defense.

He says, I bring advanced Joe. That was a top 10 defense. Last year they've got a shut down corner. Like, I'm looking at the Broncos, and I haven't made my final sort of, you know, determinations on records and who's going to make the playoffs. They're kind of a, they're an interesting team. Like, there is a scenario where he does fix them. And you go, shoot, why didn't we see this coming?

We saw it when Joe Judge got replaced. We saw it when Urban Meyer gets replaced. Like, it's not a bad idea to key in on the team that had the horrible coach the year before that was a complete train wreck and now it's absolutely going to be an upgrade in some respect. So could that team finish with like nine wins? Yeah, I think they could. I don't know that I'm going to predict it. But I think that's what's in it for him. And the Russell Wilson aspect of it, I'm with you. Like I don't think Russell Wilson is his first choice. I think he probably got assurances from ownership that, hey, if this doesn't work out with Russ, we're going to have to

go in a different direction. Like, I'm not here just to fix Russell Wilson. At the same time, that does get a little messy. Like you said, they owe Russell Wilson a lot of money. And if you're going to move on from Russell Wilson and bring someone else in, that guy better be a hundred percent big time upgrade from Russell Wilson, given the money you're already paying Wilson. So there's a lot at stake there. Nothing would surprise me. If you told me they make the playoffs with Russell Wilson, I think that's in play. If you told me Jared Stidham is starting by week eight, honestly, that's not going to show. Who did they go after on like the first day of free agency? Jared Stidham. So all those things are.

And again, like, I don't want to ask this question because the answer is so obvious. The answer to the question I'm about to ask is $20 million in ego, exactly like you said. Yes. But why is Sean Payne coming out of retirement to play coach Jared Stidham in week nine? Wait a year and he's going to get greener pastures, man? And that could be something we could absolutely be looking at that after the year and go, why did he take that job? Look at these jobs that opened up.

He should have taken one of those. But come on, these guys, we just said, he doesn't want to sit around. round in Fox and give vanilla opinions when he could just be in the arena, ripping Nathaniel Hackett on like the first day of training camp? Come on. What's more fun? That's easy. Option A or option B. It's option B. So Peyton and the Broncos are a good way to start here. All right. My first one, Benjamin. You got to start it. My first one. Here's a question I want the answer to. What is Jonathan Taylor doing in week one when the NFL season starts? I mean, talk about a situation that has just gun out of hand in a week span. For those who don't know all the details, it's relatively

straightforward. Jonathan Taylor wants to- Is it straightforward? It feels not straightforward. Yeah, yeah, I think it is straightforward. Jonathan Taylor wants a contract extension. He's going into the final year of his deal. The Colts do not want to give him a contract extension. The Colts have, probably, I would say, am I missing anyone, the most unhinged donor in the NFL based on behavior of the last year? That's the non-straight-forward aspect of it to me, is that Jim Ursay is tweet. tweeting at Jonathan Taylor's agent just out here for everyone to see. So how can this thing play out? I mean, you're right, actually. There are some intricacies to this. Number one, Ben, I have a question for you. So for those who didn't see, Jim Ursay arrived at Colt's

training camp on a luxury bus, called Jonathan Taylor into the luxury bus. They had a one-hour conversation. I don't think that conversation went well. Taylor had reportedly already requested a trade before, but then Erse comes out and is tweeting, here's my question. Not to get sidetracked, but that's what we do here. Why does Jim Ursey have a luxury? Like, he's not going to like another state.

Like this is, I've been to Colts training camp. It's literally like, it's, what, a half an hour drive from downtown Indianapolis, Grand Park. It's in Westfield, Indianapolis. Beautiful training facility. Yeah. Great facility.

Yeah. He wants to be Jerry Jones. Right? That's the long and the short of it. Jerry Jones rolls to the NFL combine every single year in his giant bus and parks it on like side streets, not him, but his driver, parks it on like side streets of Indianapolis. Just as somebody who cares very deeply about traffic patterns and logistics, one of the greatest impediments to healthy traffic flow I've just ever seen in a downtown city area and just leaves that John wherever he wants for hours on end. And it's unbelievably Jerry. And you have to imagine that Ursa is just like, well, if Jerry Jones gets a bus, I get a bus.

Not the only thing Jim Ursay is imitating Jerry Jones on and that he's currently like handling contract negotiations with a star running back, which feels very GM-y. But he's just, just, just, just, just, the answer that that's his job now. Yeah, I think, well, Jerry Jones at least is going to a new city. I think the easy answer is the man is comfortable going to the bathroom where he wants to go to the, and he wants his own bathroom. I mean, that has to, because those luxury buses have nice baths. rooms, right? That's got to be number one. He doesn't want to be, you know, going to the locker

room or over the cult's facility. So that's my answer. If anyone has a firm answer, listen, Jim Ursay is very reachable. I could probably just tweet at him right now and I would say, add Jim Mersey, maybe. He would respond, but that's my question. So I'm wondering how this thing gets resolved. I mean, as you mentioned, Ursay can't stop tweeting and Jonathan Taylor's agent is responding. And Jonathan Taylor is not participating in training camp. He's on the PUP list. There was a report from ESPN that Jonathan Taylor complained about back pain and the Colts were considering putting him on the non-football injury list. Now, what does that mean? If you're on the non-football injury list, you don't get paid. And so that would be a big deal if that's

what were to happen. Now, Jonathan Taylor responded and said, no, his back is fine. He never complained of any back pain there. So listen, sometimes these things get to a point where you say there's no way this can be resolved. I think you and I thought that's where Lamar Jackson and the Ravens were last off season and then eventually time passes and it gets resolved. I kind of feel like Taylor has his heels dug in a little bit here. And if he wants to get paid and the Colts don't want to pay him, now all of a sudden, is there a trade in play? Would there be a team willing to give up draft capital for a 24 year old running back who's very good when healthy? And then, by the way, pay him near the top of the market. I mean, that is a lot to kind of consider. I mean, that is a lot to kind of

consider if you're a team the way we've seen teams operate in free agency, it would seem that that's unlikely. So the three scenarios are Jonathan Taylor's playing for the Colts in week one. Jonathan Taylor's playing for another team in week one. Jonathan Taylor is at home on his couch giving up game checks but saying, I'm not playing for that team. I'm not playing for that man. I've got to take a stand here. How do you think this thing plays out between now and week one? So the game check aspect of it is very interesting because this effort to put Taylor on the non-football injury list would preclude the Colts from having to pay out to Taylor in the event that he misses games for the injury, right?

Correct. Well, miss his games for the injury is a bit of a shaky thing because, like, how injured is Jonathan Taylor? Is it kind of like a quasi-holdout? And non-football injury list, NFI list is also a shaky thing because the Colts are claiming, yeah, like Taylor showed up to his physical complaining of back pain. He must have got it when he was training, like, in Arizona, you know, before we had camp, which is a non-football injury because it wasn't it didn't happen like on the field with the Colts

and then Taylor immediately tweeted was like did not report a back injury do not have back pain and then he like just like check their sources right because he was mad at the reporting and the sourcing of it all. So it's very difficult all that to say it's very difficult to say what's going to happen with Taylor in week one because we don't know how those chips are going to settle right in terms of if the Colts can or cannot successfully get them on the NFI list if there's I don't even know what happens if they try to add them to the NFI list and Taylor's it's not a non-football injury if there's like litigation and the process that happens there. I got no clue how that works.

In general, I think that we see Taylor play for the Colts in week one. I think that running backs are unbelievably deleveraged in these environments, right? Because NFL offenses, coordinators and coaches and quarterbacks and whatever, that combination have gotten so good at producing points and yardage without top running back talent, running backs just inherently de-leveraged. There's details of the situation that can give them more leverage. I think, like, Josh Jacobs hasn't signed his franchise tender, so he's not going to lose money for not showing up to camp. And the Raiders entire offense is very sad without Josh Jacobs,

gives him a little bit more leverage. The Colts here, like, they got fourth round pick a quarterback. They got a new head coach in the building, right? They got juice without JT. And so they can much more easily, I think, just walk out in week one and not have Jonathan Taylor and not feel like they're missing too much, while as Taylor's taken game check hits.

So training camp wise, he can hold out for a long time Because he's not on a veteran deal And so he can get his like fines recouped and and forgiven by the team in the event they come to a contract agreement It's a little bit easier for him there once we get to week one it really starts to hurt Taylor And I think Taylor also knows and his agent knows that like Okay, even if he doesn't get a mega extension from the Indianapolis Colts If and when Taylor makes it a free agency, they'll be a decent market for him He's not going to get Dalvin cooked like Jonathan Taylor's legitimate

24 years old, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so you kind of just want to get there. You don't want to risk not accruing the season and waiting another year. You want to get there as young as you can get there. And so to me, I think we see Taylor play in week one, but there's a lot to suss out still. And that's only made more complex by the fact that, like, at any time, Jim Ursay could decide to do anything. And I would not be super surprised.

Throw a lot of curveballs into this. Yeah, I forgot to mention earlier. Jim Ursay has said that the team is not trading Jonathan Taylor now or in October. Now, you say that. My question to you would be, let's say they changed their mind. Chris Ballard kind of calms Jim Mersey down and says, you know what, we're not going to pay him. We would have him this year. We'd maybe have him next year on the franchise tag unhappy. We're not winning 12 games this year.

We're kind of in that growth stage of our franchise with, like you said, a new head coach and a new quarterback. Maybe we at least do explore the trade market and see what we could get. What then do you think the market would be for Jonathan Taylor, knowing that the last running back trade we saw Christian McCaffrey, 49ers gave up a second, third, in a fourth in 2023 and a fifth in 2024. Now, I have to say, big difference between McCaffrey and Taylor and that McCaffrey is under contract for like three plus years at a very reasonable price for the team that acquired him.

So the 49ers aren't paying like a crazy amount for Christian McCaffrey. Actually, the salary is good for a player of his ilk. So it's different with Taylor because if you're trading for him, you're saying, all right, we're trading for him and we're going to have to pay him probably in the neighborhood of $12 to $16 million at some point here in the next year. Do you think there would be a team willing to give up, say, a day two pick, a second or third round pick for Jonathan Taylor knowing what they would have to pay him? So just to make sure I understand, they're trading for him now?

Now, before week one. Now before week one. Yeah. So this is always tricky because what you have to do from the selling team's perspective from the Colts is engineer it back from the compic that you would get, right? Which you're not always guaranteed to get a compick because Jonathan Taylor signs a big free agent deal somewhere else and you have a third round compensatory selection coming your way, but it precludes you from signing a huge extension in free agency.

Because if you go and give big money to, you know, ex whoever, T. Higgins, then you lose the compact from Jonathan Taylor. So it's not one to one. But if you as the Colts are saying, all right, like he's going to get 13 million somewhere. That's going to be like a third, maybe a fourth round compick for us. so we need to beat that in order to trade him, you're looking to get at least a third and change, right? That's also a year later, though.

You have to remember that's also a year later, like this is a team that is not a good roster. So they would potentially be getting a better pick and a pick this year rather than the following year. Yeah. And so the answer to me is I think you can get a third off of somebody. I do. It is like there's no team.

There's the problem with that, though, which is that for the acquiring team, you're basically saying, all right, we're going to spend a draft capital right now to make sure we get Jonathan Taylor and make sure we can extend him, which implies that should Jonathan Taylor hit free agency,

this team would be unsure they'd be able to outbid the contenders for Jonathan Taylor. And given the current state of the running back market, you should be pretty sure you can outbid the contenders to get a running back because nobody's paying him anything. So I feel like you should be able to at least get a third for Jonathan Taylor. Like, you should. That should be reality. I think probably be a wise move from a buying GM's perspective to just let him get to the open

market because even if you give them roughly the same size contract, you're probably not going to have too many people to outbid and out compete for it because a lot of folks aren't going to pay that money for running back anyway. And so it's like a patience thing. I don't know. You should be able to get a third for Jonathan Taylor. That should happen though. I'm smiling because you are forgetting your own rule. What's a GM's first order of business? Protect the job. Protect the job. Don't get fired. Two years from now, do I want to improve my team? Or this year, do I want to improve my team? I sort of think they would be able to, I think they would be able to get a day two pick for Jonathan Taylor. Here's the thing. He doesn't have a big contract this year. I think he's making like $4 million this year.

So even as a rental, like think of the rentals in the past. I remember the Eagles traded for Golden Tate in the middle of the season and gave up a third round pick. They traded for Jay Ajai in the middle of the season. I think gave up a fourth round pick. And so even if you're looking at it, look, if you're a contending team or maybe even not a contending, I don't know, the Seahaw. They have running back injuries. Anytime there's a running back, you have to mention the Seahawks. Would they say, you know what? We'll give up a third round pick and maybe something else conditional for Taylor this year and then we'll figure it out after the year because what you said about the Colts applies to a team that trades for him. I mean, you could trade for him and then you could say, all right, we're letting him walk in free agency. We're going to get that compensatory pick.

We got a year to check it out. We didn't want to pay in big money. That's what we're going to do. You could still use the franchise tag. And Taylor might say, you know what, For another team, I'm willing to play out the deal, but I'm fed up with the Colts. They've seen me play through injuries. They've seen me put the team on my back in 2021. I don't want to play for them anymore, but for another team, I'm willing to play for them. So I'm going to go on a limb and say Jonathan Taylor does get traded and is playing for another team between now and week one. We'll see.

Okay, who is it? Who is it? Well, two teams I wrote down. Is there a panthers trade that involves the new? you'll only signed Miles Sanders. Going to the Colts in addition to draft capital. Now, Sanders is making like $6 million a year. He played for Shane Stake in last year.

Jonathan Taylor played for Frank Reich in Indianapolis. He goes to Carolina and plays with Bryce Young. That and the Seahawks. Those were the two teams I wrote down. I don't think you sign a guy to a four-year $26 million deal for agency and trade him before he plays a snap for you. It'd be wild, though. I could do a nice lie detector test with Frank Reich and say,

who would you rather have Miles Sanders or Jonathan Taylor? I think you'd rather have Jonathan Taylor. I just think from a business perspective, you can't be doing that. You know the team that I could see doing it, and it would be so annoying when they do it, but it would also make sense because it's that. Cowboys. Los Angeles Rams.

Can't you just see? Oh, like Sonny Michelle just retired, which for some reason matters to them. Right, and then just haven't been able to figure out running back. Kamakers didn't work, Darrell Henderson didn't work, They want to get their run game going. Yeah, it's a big priority. It was dominant, little Todd Curly.

Like, come on. I think it was, I was Deonté Lee of the athletic who I was talking with him yesterday. And he mentioned the Rams. And I was like, yeah, that's the one. That's the team that I could see going over their skis for JT. And I would love it. It would be so Rams and it would be so fun. Yeah, they're in a different stage.

But at the same time, it was just like the end of last season. They were trying to trade two first for Brian Burns, right? So it's not like they're, you know, not willing to give up any picks. I think I like the Rams better than the teams that I suggested. All right, let's take a break. We'll come back. We will get Ben's second question. All right, we are back on extra point-taking.

Ben, hit me with your second burning training camp question. I'm very interested to see what happens with the Zach Martin holdout with the Dallas Cowboys. And here's why. The new CBA, one of the concessions that the players gave up, was that they made training camp holdouts more difficult for veteran players. previously you would hold out from training camp and you would get fined and then you would eventually sign your extension and then I referenced this with Jonathan Taylor the team could forgive your fines right they could say hey we're not going to collect those fines you were holding out for six days like whatever like we signed you too big extension we love you you love us happy extension we're not going to collect your

fines the CBA made it such that a player on a veteran contract so not jonathan taylor holding out on his rookie deal or Josh Jacobs holding out on no deal because he hasn't signed his franchise tender but Zach Martin, who's on a second contract, that player is going to be fined $50,000 for every day of training camp missed. It doesn't feel like a big number, but it accumulates. That's not, that number gets big fast even by NFL standards. Furthermore, again, for veteran players, you cannot have these fines forgiven. These fines are living.

They're happening to you. And Zach Martin is currently holding out. He's like five days, six days into a training camp hold out. I don't know how many days, like they haven't had six days of practice. I don't know if it's only the days of practice. or like if the player's day off and you're still holding out, I'm assuming that doesn't count. So I don't know the exact number,

but he's been holding out for about a week now. The Zach Martin holdout for like 29 of the 32 teams in the league would be very simple, right? It would just be here's a guy who has been a franchise defining player for a decade. He's going to be a Hall of Famer, right? Yes, he's going to turn 33 this season, but he was also like the best guard in football last year, as he has been the best guard of football for the last seven years. And it's important to clarify here.

Like there's a lot of times where, you know, we'll say like a mid-30s player is like the best guy in football. Like, you know, like Jalen Ramsey's still the best corner in football. Jalen probably hasn't had a season that's like the best corner season in the last couple of years. He's remained like a top five guy, but he's starting to get that age cliff. Zach Martin and Aaron Donald are the two. We're like, seriously, no, these guys are still the best at their position. Like, they are number one. Like, it's not close.

They're in their 30s and they're still doing this. So Zach Martin's, this is the best guard in football. who's also been on your team for a decade, who's basically to saying, hey, like, we've restructured my deal multiple times since I signed the extension to give cap relief to the team. I also signed a super long extension, which is always friendly to the team. I would now just like to make the money that top guards make, because since I signed my extension, players like Lincoln Tomlinson and Quinn Nelson have gotten over the top of me, and I'm playing better than those guys are, and he absolutely is. So again, for 29 and 32 teams, this would be very simple.

You just go to the piggy bank, you find $5 million, you give it to Zach Martin, even though, yeah, like, Zach Martin is under contract or whatever, you just do it because he deserves it. You keep it happy, you keep it smooth, you keep it chuck and you go into the next thing. When you're Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys, you decide to become the first sticking ground for this new moment in the CBA. And that's why, like, it's important that this is one of the first, like, big veteran trainee camp holdouts that we've seen none of this new CBA in which Jerry Jones was extremely involved in terms of the defining and the ratifying of. Jerry's bringing up the fact that they need to pay C.D. Lamb. Jerry's bringing up the fact that they need to pay Michael Parsons. Very quickly, after Zach Martin announced his training camp hold out, they announced a massive extension for Trayvon Diggs, which is probably a coincidence, but I'm willing for the sake of this question to argue that that wasn't a coincidence. That was a little bit of a message, right? All Jerry's talking about is we got to pay this young star and that young star and this other young star. Remind me who drafted all young stars Jerry Jones. Oh yeah, you, because you're the general manager. This is like a hundred,

this is a, this is a Jerry ego versus Zach Martin establishment thing. Like this is like, like, like this CBA is built to make it to these exact training camp holdouts can't happen. And this is kind of the first flashpoint here of this, this new change in litigation. And again, it should not be hard. They should pay Zach Martin, but I don't think they're going to. I don't think they're going to for a bit. And I think Zach Martin has enough of a war chest to take on some fines and make this look a little bit ugly. I don't think this is like a Jonathan Taylor gets traded thing. Like, you know, what's his future? Yada yada. I mean, I'd be stunned if we get to that point. But in general, like, we're going to see how much stress this new rule for veteran

players does put on training camp holdouts. And if ownership comes out with the victor and Martin just eventually reports on his contract, maybe with like a couple million dollars more in incentives, like that's it. Training, if ownership comes out of the victor, which I think they will, it sets an important precedent for veteran holdouts in the future. So this is an important moment here in terms of how we're going to see training camp holdouts work in the foreseeable future for older players. Still, it's not sexy. Guard, not practicing in Dallas, but it matters a lot to me and I'm curious to see how it shakes out. Well, let the record show that it only took to your second burning question until you said several things that I completely disagree with. So we are,

we're back on track for 20. The first questions, you know, I think we were all pretty, you know, disagreed a little, but we're on the save page. But an easy solution, just given $5 million, I mean, what are you talking about? That's not how this works in the NFL. He's a 32-year-old guard with two years left on his contract. When he signed the contract, it was a fair contract. It was his decision to sign us, what was it, a six-year extension? Like, that's a bad job by him and his agent.

If he wanted to maximize career earnings, he should have signed a three-year deal. By the way, just like his quarterback's doing, Dak Prescott played it perfectly. he signed a shorter term deal. You hit the market again. When you sign a longer term deal, you're saying, I'm taking more jobs. I want more security. And I'm at the expense of potentially maximizing my career earnings. No one's debating whether he's a really good player. But generally, players with two years left on their contract, you don't just give them a new deal. So could they give him an extension? Yeah, if they wanted to. But again, 30, again, 32 year old guards who enter free agency and the market, like sometimes they get paid, sometimes they don't get paid.

You're an older player. You're an older player there. You cannot equate Zach Morton to another over, like to Graham Glasgow. Those are not equivalent players. No one is doing that. No one is doing that way. You said sometimes over 30 guards don't get paid in the market. That's true.

Even really good ones. It's Zach Martin. Who there's no. And he doesn't have a path to the open market. Like this is a, what would, what would Lane Johnson get on the market right now? if he became available. Younger was a larger injury history. What would he get?

He'd get a record setting right tackle contract. Well, that's also tackle. Tackle is different than guard. It is. What are you talking about? Tackle is absolutely viewed differently than interior offensive linemen. You're saying Zach Martin's not going to get a record setting contract. He's on the free agent market right now.

He absolutely would. He beat Joe Tunis number in a heartbeat. I mean, Chris Lindstrom got what, 20 million per year. But that's not even the Cowboys question. Like they have him under contract for two more years. Like teams exercise their leverage. all the time, and this is a reasonable time to exercise their leverage. I think ultimately this will come down to some kind of common ground, whether they give him more guaranteed money, whether they give

him more incentives, whatever the case may be. But you don't just like, like teams are not in the business of just handing a 32 year old player who's under contract for two more years, five million dollars for no reason when they're under no pressure to do so. Like that that's just not how it works. So I don't agree that this is like a simple thing that all the 31 other teams would absolutely not let it get to this point and have a simple solution. Like I don't think that would be the case.

I think the majority of teams would do what now. I don't think they'd go in the media like Jerry Jones and explain that. Right. Yeah, and explain that we have to say Michael Parsons. I want to say, yes. I think like my point was that for 29 of the 32 teams like made up number,

Martin would say, I'm going to hold out from camp. They'd say, okay, let's figure this out. And then they would put incentives in the contract, which like $5 million was, a throwaway number. It really lasted down to the $5 million there. Add $3 million in incentives. By way, I googled it. Patriots added $5 million incentives to Tom Brady's contract in 2018. So it's not unheard of. It did happen to Tom Brady. It happened to Tom. It happened to Tom. I know, I know, I know, I know. Whatever. Rob Grunkowski got $5.5 million of incentives

when he was with the Patriots as well, but on his contract. Buda Baker four days ago, new incentives, $2.4 million in bonus and incentives on his contract. So anyway, all this to say, for most I think they can do that. I think that's, I think that is what will end up happening. But I don't think it's as simple as just pay him because he's been an awesome player. We did, but we wouldn't, all the other teams wouldn't go through this rigmar role of, oh, but we have to pay Michael Parsons.

Oh, but like, Jerry made a comment here that we've already paid him. Like, why? Because Dax said, like, pay the man. And Jerry was like, we've paid him. Like, like. Which is true. They paid him a very fair contract. Listen here, okay, pro-owner shield.

I'm never pro-o-owner. This is basically the only time in my history. go through my podcast records where I'm taking this stance. And part of it is because I, you know, I like to argue with you. But no, I, I knew I could get you with pro owner. I knew if I dropped pro owner, she'll fire you up. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance from the team. I agree with you that ultimately this will end in some type of compromise and some type of resolution. And I do agree with you that, yes, it is not. The teams, I remember when I first started covering the Seahawks for ESPN, my first weeks on the job, Cam Chancer was

holding out. And every time Pete Carroll had a press conference, lead questions are at Camp Chancellor. And the way he would love Cam Chancellor up in the media, like at every opportunity, this guy is a great player. He's a leader. We love him. This is football. Like, that is the way to do it. That's the way smart teams do it. And Jerry Jones could just say, listen, we're in communication with Zach. We hope it works out. He's been an all-time cowboy. We're confident he'll be back. We're not going to negotiate through the media. That's not how Jerry Jones operates. And I like him. for that because he gives us content, but I would agree with you that that's probably the smart way to do it. All right. Let's stick with the offensive lineman. Who said we can't be a meat and

potatoes type podcast? Big fellas. Question two for me. Can McCoy Beckton stay healthy and will he be a contributor to the Jets? Man, when I saw Jets on your text, I did not think we were going. You did not think I was going, brother. Well, you know, I'm just going through every team and you identify these players that you really think could swing a season's fortune. for a specific team. And I think Mackay Beckton is just that for the Jets. So for those of you who don't remember all the details, 11th overall pick in 2020,

started 13 games as a rookie, has started just one game over the last two years, missed all of last season. The Jets were not aggressive in free agency, the draft, whatever, in addressing the offensive tackle position. They have Dwayne Brown at one tackle spot, who is going to turn 38 years old next month

and is currently on the PUP list. They have Mackay Beckton, who had been held out of practice after the first padded practice, had been limited, was eventually full go, according to Zach Rosenblatt of the athletic. But Rosenblatt wrote,

it's clear that he's not completely recovered from last August's knee injury and is still working his way back into football shape. So if the Jets had to play an actual game this Sunday, they would be starting Max Mitchell a fourth round pick from 2022, who started five games as a rookie. Ben, I don't know if you had strong Max Mitchell.

Louisiana Lafayette, raging Cajuns, quality player. All right. Ask me if I had opinions about Max Mitchell. And then they have Billy Turner, a veteran who has played some good football in the past, Dub, but is on his third team in three seasons, not ideal for protecting a 40-year-old quarterback

in a season where you are looking to maximize winning now and making the playoffs. And so I just feel like Beckton is one of the key players to watch over the next month. Really was a physical marvel, his size, his agility when he was coming out of the draft in Louisville. And I just want to see the big fella get healthy and be on the field and see what the Jets have in him. But it's not going exactly according to plan here for really the third straight season.

And so I think that's a player to watch, whether it's preseason games, whether it's padded practices, whether it's what Robert Sop. is saying whether they're giving him time off after padded practice, whether he can string together a stretch where the knee is feeling good. But to me, he really is kind of one of the under the radar swing players in the AFC playoff race. What do you think? Did I over, did I overrate the importance of a Mackay Beckton?

Should I have just gone with a wide receiver or a quarterback? Do I need to get my legs under me? That this is our first extra point taken of training camp, or do you agree with the assessment? No, I do. I find myself bringing up the offensive line and particularly offensive tackle so much when I talk about this Jets and Rogers team. I'm just, if you had made me guess

which of the two of us brought up Mackay Bechtin on the first extra point taken of season two, I would have guessed me and I know the topics I'm doing and Mike is not on here. Listen, I was talking O-line play while you were in diapers, So lack, okay? It's not the O-line aspect of it. It's usually like when I bring up something

that like I think is interesting to me that's like a little bit like not a head. headline. I usually get it from the issue. Oh, we're talking about this. I thought it was Zach Martin. I was worried with the Zach Martin holdout. I was ready to defend that that was interesting enough for one of these questions. And you chased you with Mackay Beckett. I'm almost proud. Yeah, Mackay is a tricky thing. Like, I remember when the Bexton draft hype was coming through and everybody was just so excited to watch this cat play. And it was like, yeah, well, it's sick to be enormous and to uproot people looking like with total ease. But there's a reason

why guys don't play the size of the NFL for a long time. It does a number on your joints, right? And you wanted Bechtin to get more healthy years under him before he went through this process. And obviously he didn't. And now he's body recombed. And like, that's always challenging because you have to kind of change your technique and your timing and kind of how you go about things. It's really quite a challenge to play at this size. And it's a huge hope that he's successful because, yeah, their tackle situation is is far from established. And that can sink this shit, man. Garrett Wilson can be everything we thought it was. Breece Hall can come back from injury. Aaron Rogers can be interested and dedicated to winning the games.

and obviously took the huge pay cut and that whole thing happened. But if you're not set at left tackle, you don't win a lot of games in this league, period. It doesn't really matter what the incelary parts look like. That's why it's a 10thold position. That's why it's a premium position. And so I'm very interested to see what Bechton looks like.

I'm okay with like, I don't need Becton to be good. I think that like, for example, Mitchell. I think Mitchell can be solid enough, you know, another year under him with some playing experience that he'll be okay. So it's not like the entire ship rides on Beckon. When you have something like this, right, where you have this, like, big injury at a position

and then you have like a veteran who's kind of still hanging on by his last threads in Dwayne Brown, it's okay to approach the position the way the Jets have where you just roll a ton of dice and then whichever two land for you, they land for you. But it's still a scary spot to be when you're like, okay, Mackaybacked in plus Dwayne Brown, plus Max Mitchell, plus Billy Turner. Hopefully we get one and a half tackles out of this. Like, you have some decent odds, but it's still like a scary position. You have to figure it out and you have to be right with it going through training camp.

So it's a weird spot. And the interior line has a chance to be, you know, pretty good. Yeah, that's the other wild card of tackles that Elijah Vera Tucker, who's a top 15 pick for them at Guard, excellent young guard, was a tackle at USC killed it. And then they had to kick him out to tackle last year's injury. And he looked great. And then he got hurt.

And so, like, you even have that. Again, that dice roll just kind of sitting in your pocket there. Yeah, they have thrown a lot of darts. You're right about that. They haven't left the cupboard completely bare, but I just do feel like if Beckton can stay healthy and give you competent tackle play and maybe give you a high-stealing player,

it can really change the fortunes of that offense because I like a lot of the other things with that offense. All right, let's take one more break. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Can this Connor McGovern play guard? There's two Connor McGoverns. I know he's playing center right now. Him and Tipman are competing at center.

I think McGovern's been playing, taking the first round. and then the other McGovern's on the bill's playing guard. Okay, so this is this McGovern? I feel very poorly for calling him this McGovern, but that's really all I've got here. Has he ever played a guard? He was with the Broncos.

I think he played some guard there. It'd be nice if you could, if Timmy can win that job and the McGuver can potentially swing and then you can put Tucker out. They have some options. They have some options. We'll see what they do. All right, let's take one more quick break.

We'll come back with our final training camp question. All right, back on extra point taken. So like, you're not, not making three in a row with offensive line, are you? What are you hitting me with here? I was going to do a bit there. I was going to be like, so my big question, you know, other Connor McGovern and Buffalo, what is he going to bring? No. My third question is, Sheel, how many is several? When you hear several, how many numbers you think in? I think my kids tell me, I think several technically means four. Isn't that right? What? Yeah. Four is a few.

No, a few is three. A few is 100% three. A couple is two. A few is three. And I think several is, my kids tell me four. I don't, I never knew that. But maybe they're teaching that in elementary public schools now. You're saying, you're saying my kids told me a several as four. Well, how did this come up with your kids? Just like sometime in the last, how old are my kids now? All right. 10 and seven. Sometimes sometime in the last seven or 10 years, a child has said to me, this is what happens when you're old. You don't remember that several is four. I don't think that's how Zach Taylor meant it, but that's what my kids would tell you. Now, were they saying this as like, hey, dad in school today, we learned a several as four?

Are they saying in the sense of like a five-year-old, which is like, several means four? And you're like, I'm going to take this as gospel for the next five years. No, no, no. So actually, now I do remember, it's my younger daughter, Lila, who is seven. And someone said several. It might have been me because kids really pin you down on timing. When are we leaving in a few minutes? Okay, a few means three.

You know, they'll, like, hit you with that. How many donuts can you have a couple? okay, a couple means I can, like that, that's how kids operate. And so it came up in some context where somebody, me, my wife, somebody said several. And I remember my daughter specifically, I think it's probably the last two years. So you're talking about either kindergarten or first grade education said several means four. See, to me like it can't be that like a word means just one number. Like obviously a couple means two. And then in my head, a few, like because you're saying a few, you're inherently using an unspecific number. Like if it was three, you'd say three.

When you say a few, you mean like three or four. And so when you say several, you mean like maybe five or six. Like that's kind of what you're looking at. And then many is like eight plus, you know what I'm saying? Seven's kind of net. Many's got no number. I know that. Many is a nice vague parental term where you can say whatever you want and they can never

hold you to it. All right. So all of this to say, Joe Burroughs out for several weeks with the calf strain. And the reason why Zach Taylor, who I'm sure is a father and has used this technique, is saying several is because they don't know exactly how many weeks. it's it was a scary video to watch when burrow pulled up non-contact hopping on one leg gets right into the cart when you see a non-contact pull up like that you're thinking acil or achilles usually achilles they go down right but then they say okay it's a calf thing and like oh shoot maybe he did

pop as achilles like burrow's out for the rest of the season this is it and then the team announces it's a calf strain like generally good news right the bengals team Twitter account had a nice tweet they're like please stop trying to donate your calves we're not going to need them like that's a good work there. Keep it light, a little brevity. But then, yeah, Zach Taylor came out and said, hey, this is going to be several weeks for Joe Burrow. This matters, right? Firstly, like, you know, if you're Joe Burrow and you're rushing back from week one, there's a chance you're playing the whole season at less than 100%, which I would not recommend. But there's, you know, like this is now like a training camp injury, he's going to, A, miss valuable reps, but B, he might just

be dealing with muscle tightness for most of the season in that calf. So that's always something that you have to like care about. The other reason that this cares a lot, this, this matters a lot, excuse me, is because we are, as of today's recording, Monday morning, six weeks from Joe Burroughs presumed first game against the Cleveland Browns. And that's week one. Week two, they have the Baltimore Ravens. This AFC North has a chance to be the most competitive division in the league. This AFC North has a chance to produce four teams that are 500 or better. Like there are some good teams here. The Bengals are not going to have an easy time running through this division. We have not seen a three-peat division winner in the AFC North in my lifetime. Last time is 95 that a team won it three seasons

in a run. That's what the Bengals are trying to do. If Burrow misses just two games to start the season, he is missing two divisional games against the Browns and against the Ravens. Both teams that the Bengals could very realistically lose to with Joe Burrough at quarterback, let alone with Trevor Simeon, who it looked like is going to be the potential backup. When we get to January football, that divisional tiebreaker, I mean, that could be, that could be it for the Bengals. Like, the, Burrough could miss two games and it could decide the division. That's obviously, like, very fatalistic, but that's not outside the realm of possibility. It's not like they got, you know, like in week three and week four, they have the Rams and the Titans. How great would

have been for the Bengals if that was week one and week two? You just feel a little bit better about Burrough missing those weeks. So we're obviously not going to like learn things about it on the field because Burroughs not going to be playing, but the absolute one of the biggest storylines right now in the entire AFC, let alone the AFC North, is for how long Joe Burroughs potentially going to be out, how many weeks is several weeks. Because if Burrow misses the first few weeks of the season, the Bengals could lose legitimately critical games for what I expect to be an extremely hot division race. And that's going to matter for playoff positioning and how they play going forward.

And so Jalen Ramsey injury, obviously huge. But in my opinion, no injury bigger right now in the Joe Burrow injury. Even if he comes back, the season, it looks great. The Bengals have that September 10th game circled against Cleveland. and it's going to be a race against the clock to see Burd can play that one. All right. So my Google search history has just gotten very weird. How much is a few, according to dictionary.com, between two and several.

So I guess I'm wrong there. I don't know. I use it. It said some people use a few to mean around three, but this is not a universal interpretation. So I feel like I'm kind of right there, kind of wrong. Not officially, but you can use it as three. How much is several around three to five? this can vary greatly depending on the context.

So around three to five sounds right now, I was reading a couple pieces, one on the athletic, one on ESPN.com, where they were looking at kind of previous players who have had this calf strain. Dak Prescott is the name that comes up quite a bit here with this injury.

I think it was, I want to say, 20, 21. Yes, he suffered a calf strain in the middle of the season and he missed 21. days. They had a buy in between there, so I think he missed two games, and he missed the buy. He returned 21 days later. The Cowboys didn't have a great end to the season, but he was saying it's not because of the calf strain. Aaron Rogers played through a calf strain in 2015, where he did

not miss time because he suffered it in January, and it was the playoffs, and he said it was like, yeah, this is a legit injury that hurts. Other sports, Mike Trout, I know you're not a big baseball guy. It ended his season. He plays for the Angels. He's an Eagles fan. And he's the big Eagle. He's the biggest Eagles fan maybe in the world. He was saying it was like very, very painful. I feel like I kind of, everyone knows there's a Capadia curse where Sheel, you know, puts his name behind something and immediately something bad happens to that in his NFL analysis.

I was going, doing my team by team stuff. I was strongly considering picking the Bengals to win the Super Bowl. I still might be considering picking the Bengals to win the Super Bowl. And what did I see later on my timeline that day, the video of Joe Burrow? Having said that, it's a concern. There's no doubt it's a concern at the same time. We're talking about these guys who have come back two, three, four weeks. He's getting a full six weeks here where he doesn't have to do anything where he can really recover. It's a high variance injury. So there's no telling a definitive answer. But I feel like if you're talking about most likely scenario, I think he's got a good shot to be ready for the season opener just based on the information we have at hand. Now, there are different grades of calf strains and the Bengals have not. said which great it is. I think people are presuming it's a great tool. And if he was going to be out for Dak Prescott 21 weeks, Zach Taylor would have said few. 21 days, yeah. 21 days. But it is, but it is preseason. But it is preseason. And if you're, you never want to say it's

shorter and then they take longer and every reporter is just going setback, setback. There's nothing coaches hate more than the setback question. Do you remember that Carson Wentz, 2018 Eagles camp? They were like, yeah, he's going out here tomorrow. And they just did that like nine days in a row. And they're also like, but it's fine. We're like, it can't be fine. This isn't fun. This isn't Yeah, he came back and then they arrested him again and then it was set back, set back, set back, and Doug Peterson's head was going to explode. So I understand you always want to give it longer than if they come back sooner, then you get the stories. Wow, this guy's got, what is Pete Carroll called?

Wolverine blood. This guy's got Wolverine blood. It's like when Russ was coming back from the finger injury and they were like, he's in the gym 20 hours a day. It's like he broke a finger? Yeah, I probably wrote those stories. So don't check my article history. So I agree with you. It's a concern.

it's something to watch. We're probably not going to get a ton of information. I would say, honestly, until leading up to that week one game, where it's like, is Joe Burrow going to play or is he not going to play? So I'm hopeful that he's okay. And in terms of re-injuring it, it sounds like from, again, from what I read from those articles, it said, like, if you recover fully, you're in, like, pretty good shape. You're not at, like, this giant risk of re-injuring it.

If you come back when it's, like, 80%, then you are at a very increased risk of re-injuring it. So the best... Bengals are in a tricky spot where they have to be cautious at the same time. You're not going anywhere without Joe Burrow. And like you mentioned, you can't really give up games this season. You have a tough division. You have a tough conference. And so if he's ready to go, he's probably going to play in the early weeks of the season. So hopefully a good recovery for Joe Burrow in the weeks ahead. All right. My last one, Benjamin. What are the reviews on Jordan Love's first training camp is a full-time starter? You know, like some training.

training camp stuff you read and you're going like, you know, I'm not putting too much stock into that. I feel like with somebody like Jordan Love, you can put some stock into what the reporters are saying, what they're reporting, because I think that Packers reporting crew in the past, like they've reported that the coaches weren't really seeing it with Jordan Love. So like they're sourced up a little bit and have information and have boots on the ground. By the way, shout out to all the beat reporters with boots on the ground. I mean, I love just going through the athletic and reading the training camp reports every day. It really makes, yeah, I feel like we should thank people like that because, you know, we can't, we're not going to get to every kid. We're reading them. They're shaping our analysis, and I feel like they don't get enough credit.

So thank you to everyone who's giving us that information. Speaking of one guy, Matt Schneidman of the athletic covers the Packers. Schneiderman just announced he's got a new radio show coming out in the way as well. Yeah. Congratulations to Schneidman. Love a Schneidman. Love reading his work. on the Packers, said Jordan Love had arguably his best practice as a Packer in terms of the

ones that have been open to the media on Saturday. These are the kinds of things if you're a Packers fan, you're just like, I need to read these types of reports to be, to scroll through every day for the next month because he's such an unknown. I've said when he's played in the past, I've been like, okay, I can kind of see it with Jordan Love. The team didn't want to pick up his fifth year option. That spooked me a little bit. We talked in the past. I didn't think he made a smart business decision, signing the extension that he did, but that's his decision. So he's allowed to do whatever he wants.

I'll tell you this, Ben, there's a certain, you know, I would call him like a handsome, bald Indian man who is looking at which NFC team is going to make the final wildcard spot. And he's looking at the pack. He's kind of flirting with the Packers a little bit, you know, they're not, they're not dating. They're not going. They're not texting, but they're kind of eyeing each other up across the room. And so I'm going to make my determination in the weeks ahead that if I read these reports that

Jordan Love really, listen, it's so rare that a quarterback stays in the same system and doesn't play in games, but it's getting this practice time in for this long. I think the run game's going to be good. I think the offensive line has a chance to be good. I might consider making that kind of my sleeper wild card team there. What do you think we're going to read about Jordan Love in the weeks ahead? Well, I love this because you prepare for the season with who should my seventh wildcard card team my seventh playoff team last wildcard trying to figure how the NFC is going to shake out I tweeted last week trying to think of the most hilarious NFL team to end up being good this year like who just would be the funniest to me if they were really

good and I landed on the Packers think about how hilarious it would be oh yeah even like even like Jordan love is good think about if their defense is killer the first year Rogers leaves just by like randomness just like regression this is the year it all comes together I would die it would be so funny so they the different ways that you and I prepare for the season there I have always enjoyed Jordan Loves reps when he's gotten his opportunities. For, you know, preseason when he's when he's got some live reps, when he stepped in in the Chiefs game, when he stepped in for the Eagles game, when he's had some chances. He looks like an explosive thrower.

He looks like he understands the offense. He looks like he makes young player mistakes. And those can live in our head in a bad way because we've been saying Jordan Love's name for so long and he's been in the league for so long. But he's still a young player. And like you said, it's his first training camp. I'm encouraged by the positive reports. I don't think the Packers are going to get a 15-year NFL veteran Hall of Fame quarterback out of love the way they did with Rogers and Farv.

If they pull this off, they have three quarterbacks in 45 years. It's unbelievable. I don't think they're going to get that out of love. I didn't love as a prospect coming out. I don't think he has that ceiling necessarily. But I do think they can get a good quarterback out of him. And I certainly do think the Packers are a contender for a playoff spot. The roster's just good.

just so much talent. And so as long as love is not handicapped in the team, right? So long as he's not an active detriment, they feel to me like a team that can finish above 500 pretty squarely. And so I like what I've read out of love coming out of training camp. I've heard good stuff. And I've liked what I've seen out of him. So I'm like tentatively green arrow up on Jordan Love, largely just mostly invested in the Packers being good because it'd be really funny. You know what we need? I was just saying, we need like an official team of extra points. taken. We're in the next month we're like, all right, Ben and I disagree about many things, but this is a team we're both more bullish on than the consensus. I think that's what,

like, it can't be like the chief. You know what I mean? It has to be a team. I think it has to be a team with like plus playoff odds that we both think is going to make the playoffs. So I want listeners to extra point taken. The EPT heads. All right, that's not really a thing. Maybe we can make a thing. No, this year. EPT heads tweet at us. If you're like, we want a campaign for our team to be the official team of extra point taken, then we can do that because I feel like we'll be, we should. I mean, what you just, you were just like, all right, I could see the Packers. I'm like, oh, all right, we both can see that.

That felt very rare to me. I thought you were going to be like, get out of here. Packers plus 138 to make the playoffs. All right, so maybe they're the favorites. All right, so I'm not, but I'm not willing to put my name on the Packers making the playoffs just yet. But it's what July 31st. Bring it. Bring it, show.

Who you think is winning the NFC South? No, we're not. I want to argue about that in a future show, but I know we're not on the same page there. Okay, I thought we were on the same page either. I figured to give it a shot. Dirty bird, baby, rise up! I think it's got to be, it's probably got to be an NFC wildcar team, I would think is probably what we're going to land on, because the AFC is so loaded.

The NFC, you can really go any direction you want with those wildcard teams, and you're probably not going to be nuts. So let's put that on our project list for the next month. All right. The Saints are minus 188 to make the playoffs. That's unbelievable. That's unacceptable. I can't, it's,

like, it's hard to imagine someone placing a wager on that to me, you know? You can, I don't think it's wild to think that the Saints are going to win the division.

Like, that is a reasonable take to have, but minus 188? My goodness. The problem is, the problem is on Fandall, the odds for the Saints to not make the playoffs is plus 126.

The juice out of the market is enormous. And so you can't even fade it because plus $1.26 is like accurate. Minus 188 is far too large. Okay. All right. Benjamin. us out with an extra point taken. By the way, peek behind the curtain. Solek texted me like three

minutes before we started recording and it's like, who's doing the extra point taken? We both realized we forgot the whole premise of the show. The name of the show is extra point taken and we hadn't sorted that out yet. So listen, well, it's training camp for us too. We'll get better. All right, what do you got, Ben? Yeah. And I was happy to pick it up because I've been stewing this over in my head and I like to do for my extra points like, you know, kind of bigger, step back, larger looks. I hesitate to say this because we kind of say it every year and it gets said a lot and it's an ever-increasing thing. And so it can feel wrote and it can feel hackneyed. But I really do think it's a big, big narrative this year as we look at the training camp. We're really,

this is a year of a lot of quarterback instability, a lot of quarterback question mark, a lot of quarterback randomness. And I think when we talk about a team like the Packers, we talk about finding that plus money team that we want to hitch our wagon to, there's going to be some surprising finishes for a lot of teams, I think just because quarterback is so up in the air for so many teams. I'm about to list the presumed starting quarterback for over half of the league, and I'll do it by category. You have veterans in new places in Aaron Rogers and Derek Carr. You have veterans with injury question marks in Matthew Stafford, Kyler Murray, Tuatung of Iloa, and then you can throw Joe Burrow on there, as we talked about earlier. You have veterans with new offensive systems

in Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, Russell Wilson. You have young and unprovens in Georgia Gordon Love, Justin Fields, Desmond Ritter, Sam Howell, as well as the rookies, presumed starters. Three of them, which is not a low number. In Bryce Young, C.J. Stroud and Anthony Richardson all expected to make week one starts for their teams. And then in just one big circle by himself, our 17th player, I just have Brock. I don't even know what category that guy falls into, but the whole Niners situation deserves an extra point taken unto itself. That's 17 of the 32 teams right there. you can land on wildly different sides of the argument

for how those players are going to perform in their current environments very easily. I can argue either side of Derek Carr in New Orleans so easily. Matthew Stafford with the Rams, Justin Herbert with the Chargers, Sam Howell with Washington, like this is just, there's so much we don't know about quarterbacking. And for a lot of these teams, we brought up the Falcons,

brought up the, like bring up Howell with the commanders, whose defense has played well, Jordan Love with the Packers, who have so much talent, Derek Ratt, the Saints who are a playoff favorite, to a Tuggar Vaila, we saw what the dolphins could look like. There are so many teams here, if they hit on quarterback, the playoffs. Absolutely, the rosters are good enough. So an exciting and fun and interesting and challenging part of the league year this year.

We always talk about quarterback movement, all of these new quarterbacks, new places, so it feels like we do it every single season. But really, this year, there is a lot of interest, a lot of uncertainty, and a lot of young and old and new and established quarterbacks that's going to make for a very intriguing league year. And so we could do a whole new training camp episode questions, quarterback edition and successfully fill an hour of airtime, no problem. Very, very fun year for the quarterback position,

very fun year for the league overall. And I think your categories, you didn't have like, can they do it again, right? Or did you? No, but that's another one. Gino and golf and yeah. Even is Jalen Hertz? I didn't even put Jimmy. Freaking Jimmy.

Jimmy's a veteran with a new system and he's an injured guy. Jimmy goes everywhere. You didn't have Deshawn Watson in there, did you? Did you mention? No, Watson. Watson is also kind of his own category where it's just like, are you just not going to be good for the rest of time at this point? Terrible last year as the track record of being good. Can Goff do it again? Can Daniel Jones do it again? Can Gino do it again? So yeah, you're right. I mean, the list of quarterbacks where you're like, sure thing. I know exactly what I'm getting. Yeah, I mean, it hurts. I mean, hurts has got to be in a do it again. Like I think Hertz is for sure going to be good,

but like he was second MVP. He was going to win MVP even get hurt maybe. Like, Hertz isn't good to do it again. Yeah, Hertz is high floor, I think, is his seal, is he going to be in the MVP conversation again,

uh, is the question. So yeah, the guys who are like healthy, stability, nice cast around them, like three years body of work. Uh,

that is a very, very short list. And then, yeah, I mean, even Herbert and Lamar are guys who you're like, all right, like there should it be too many excuses for you guys this year. to not be making big time runs and having big time season. So you have a lot of that. And then there's

always surprises who will get to in some of the episodes ahead. All right. That was fun. We had some listen. There were some ups and downs. We're still getting our legs underneath us. I didn't put in the training in the off season. When I bid farewell from OTAs, I wasn't just, you know, working on my craft, working on my game. I was relaxing. So I take responsibility for that. I passed the conditioning test. We did over an hour. I had a coffee and a water here. workouts yeah no yeah I'm I'm uh I'm okay I didn't fly to like uh you know Austin or South Dakota or whatever to work out with the quarterback I'm not doing that uh in my off time we made it all right where are you headed this season you uh you have training camp

so scheduled out at this point TBD TBD we will we will figure that out uh in the weeks ahead uh in the weeks ahead uh in the weeks ahead uh in the weeks ahead uh thanks to ace producer Cliff Augustine production supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopal. We'll be back on the Ringer NFL feed soon. Thanks to everyone for listening. Must be 21 plus

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