The Ringer NFL Show - Are the Browns Dead, What's Cam’s Future in Carolina, and Should the Chargers Move to London? | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: November 7, 2019

As we enter the second half of the season, we ask ourselves whether the Browns can salvage their future, where Cam Newton stands with the Panthers, how high the Raiders' ceiling is, whether the new pass interference rules will be fixed, and who will win the tank fest (0:25). Then, a Chargers-themed Take Shop, the three biggest games of the week—headlined by the Seahawks vs. the 49ers—and a Thursday night preview (30:45). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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State Farm. Talk to an agent today. It's the Ringar NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. Good play to games this week. Yeah, it is. We have the rekindling of the Niners Seahawks rivalry, I wrote about on The Ringer.com today.

We have Cowboys Vikings. We have the Rams playing a suddenly resurgent Steelers defense. We will talk about all of those. Before we do that, though, we're pretty much getting into the second half of the season now. You can debate whether it's week eight or week nine with the buys. I've always struggled with that. I never know when to do it because half the teams have won't play seven games through eight weeks. It's a strange league.

Anyway, I'm saying that we're starting the second half of the season right now for the purposes of this segment. This podcast is the official start of the second half of the season. That's exactly right. We're the ones that make the rules. We're going to talk about the most pressing questions that we have at the end of the second half of this season. We're going to do a few each. We're going to try to hit on a bunch of different teams

and some big picture topics. So, Kevin, why don't you start us off? So I have three, and I want to start with the most pressing one. Last year, around midseason, Cleveland Brown start a climb up that made them the offseason darlings, the training camp darlings, of September darlings.

And now we know that was all for not. That was fools gold. I'm wondering now if with the talent they have, because Miles Garrett is the highest rated defensive player in the NFL right now according to Profitball Focus, there is still talent there, okay? It's just a very strange team right now. You know, Sam Monson from Pro Football Focus,

put it the right way. He basically said the structural components are all there, as is him writing in Pro Football Focus, but they're an engine whose timing is off. and that means Baker Mayfield missing routine throws, receivers not being on the same page, the offensive line not being around,

not being a strength. So my question is, is there anything the Browns can do with their paper talent that will salvage this and set them up next year to have any hype at all or is this just headed straight down?

I've been trying to talk myself into it for the last month, just because I think both of us were pretty high in the Browns coming in this season. Well, they're done for 2019. They are done for 2019. This is a 2020 question.

It's absolutely, but it's more so that I've been trying to find reasons that there's going to be some improvement, even if it can't save their season, to make them start moving in the right direction. And every single game, it just seems like the same stuff is wrong. So I don't know. It's hard for me to say that there will be because last year you could point to one catalyst, one factor that really changed everything. That's when they fired Hugh Jackson. They gave play calling duties to Freddie Kitchens and things really kind of shifted. This year, what's that catalyst? is going to be. I mean, it pretty much said this week that Freddie Kitchens is not going to give up

play calling, even though I think at this point it might be a good thing. I mean, the last time a stagnant team gave play calling to Todd Monkin, it turned that team into one of the best offenses in football last year in Tampa Bay. I mean, that was a huge, huge boon for them is when they moved from Qatar to Monkin. I just don't see that happening. So if it's not going to be some overarching sweeping change, are there enough incremental things that can happen? to turn this around, at least for the second half of the season? The answer to that for me is no. I just don't know what it would possibly be.

Baker Mayfield's passerating under pressure is about 40. Okay, it was 35 last week. He improved it to 40. Congratulations, Baker Mayfield. I thought you said four. You cut out there right when you said it. I would have been like, okay, that sounds right? Well, so it is, 40 is worse than Sam Darnold, Mr. Seeing Ghosts.

And as broken as Sam Darnold looks, apparently Baker Mayfield is just as broken. here's my question to you. My secondary question, a question within the question. Is Baker-Mayfield's 2020 going to look more like 2018 or 2019? I think that's impossible to know. It's all about whatever structure they put him in. And I do think the component parts are there, like Sam says. But I think the engine is whatever the scheme and overall play-calling strategy is going to be.

And I think that part is wonky right now. I don't know how they change it. I don't know if they move on from Freddie Kitchens after the season. something needs to change at the baseline level of the way this offense is structured. And I think that's when we'll see the most out of Baker Mayfield. I was having a discussion with somebody this week who I certainly trust about football. And he said that he would trade for Baker Mayfield right now. And he would trade a high pick for Baker Mayfield right now.

People that really are in the know, I think, still believe in Baker Mayfield. I don't think anyone's writing off Baker Mayfield. They're writing off Baker Mayfield in week 10 of the NFL season because he looks like there's a lot of work to do. but I think you could save Baker Mayfield quite easily. I think then the question becomes, how are you going to save him? If you were Cleveland right now, and this didn't get any better by the end of the season,

what would you consider doing with Kitchens? If this, if the Browns, if it's this, if the Browns show no improvement, none, and Baker Mayfield either regresses or stays the same, which is in and of itself a regression in 2018, obviously, at what the coaching market looked like.

Now, there's a real possibility that there's maybe not great options out there. I mean, listen, you don't, the Jets thought it was great to fire Todd Bulls and all of a sudden they ended up with Adam Gase, okay? So there's no guarantee there's going to be a better option out there. But if there's a coach out there who is ready to make the jump or, you know, a Lincoln Riley is ready. Somebody like that, I'd consider that. I mean, I understand that going with the guys never coached in the NFL before is a risk,

but so is rolling the dice and Freddie Kitchens next year. I wouldn't necessarily say Freddie's got to go. I wouldn't say that. What I would say is I would look at the market and what might be available. Because I think the difference between this team and the rest of the teams that have struggled compared to what their preseason and expectations were,

and I mean really struggled, like one or two wins, is that this team's talent is in place to win right now. Yep. And they really are. Even with Atlanta, I feel like their defensive talent is wanting. I think that the Browns are the most talented team

that's really struggling right now. You can maybe throw the bears in there, but I think the quarterback situation makes that a different conversation. So I think that's why there's a sense of urgency with Cleveland that there might not be with some of these other teams that are playing this poorly.

I don't think Zach Taylor should lose his job because the Bengals are awful. But the Browns are good enough now with the players on their team that you really want to make the most of it here in the next couple years. And I think you have to look really hard at whether Freddie Kitchens is the person to do that.

I think there are 10 coaches in the NFL who could, win 13 games with that, with that Cleveland roster. I tend to agree. I mean, I don't know. I'm not going to say you're in name those coaches, and you guys probably know who they are, but I think that there are coaches who can win a lot of games with that 53-man roster. Now, but listen, there are holes.

We're not saying this is perfect. The offensive line was a hole. We knew the offensive line was going to be a hole. This is not a perfect roster by any means, but it's certainly a better roster than, say, the Buffalo Bills. And obviously, there's schedule problems or whatever, but I'm just saying, that teams win with this kind of talent. Absolutely.

Teams move the ball with worse offensive lines than the Browns have right now. I can promise you that. It's not good, but it's not that bad. The Seahawks' offensive line is worse. They also have quarterbacks who don't just have strangely developed a bunch of bad habits that don't seem to come from nowhere.

I mean, this is strange. This is a strange season for the Browns. And look, this is something I keep coming back to, but there's probably something to the fact that we were all hyping up the 14, Niners last year, and then they look, you know, not great. Then their quarterback gets hurt. They've lost season.

And this year, they look like one of the best teams to the NFL. Maybe we're always a year too early on this hype thing. Maybe it always takes a year longer than we think. Maybe this league is not as immediate as we think. We've seen some overnight success stories, but maybe those are just the exception, not the rule. So maybe we were all just too early on the Brown side. We need to reset for 2020, or maybe this isn't just, this is just not fixable.

I don't know the answer to that. I'm not smart enough. The difference for me is that the source of my option. optimism in the 49ers was their coaching staff. The source of my pessimism in the Browns is their coaching staff. If those things are going to stay the same from one year to the other, then I don't really think there's going to be that same carrier that there has been in San Francisco. Tough one. All right. Let's get to my first one here. I want to talk about something you wrote about this week. And that is, what is the future of Cam Newton going to be in Carolina? And I know that

that's not going to be a question that's answered on the field because he's done for the season. But what is going to happen there? And depending on what does happen there, where does Cam Newton end up? And what does that say about the movement of the quarterback market? So when you're thinking about Cam Newton right now, what is the number one thing you are curious about as it relates to next offseason? Well, it's his health, number one. Yeah. And whether or not, you know, I think what's interesting to me is what does he look like in offseason programs or what's his health around March when teams might be looking at him?

and one of those teams would be the Carolina Panthers who have him at $20 million next year, which I find to be a bargain, okay? Oh, absolutely is. If Cam Newton is decently healthy in a league where Jared Goff is making 36 next year, Joe Flacco is scheduled to make 25 next year. Cam Newton to 20, sign me up.

If he can't move, if he looks like he did at the beginning of this season with the Liz Frank and the shoulder sort of compounding each other, then it's a different question. But if he's decently healthy, I think that he is going to be either the best option for the Panthers or the best quarterback available in the free agent market. And so I think that this is a health first question and everything else flows from there because we know a healthy Cam Newton can do. If you don't think that Cam Newton can be a good quarterback, then I just there are a lot of people, a lot of people.

I would say, well, I'd say 80% of the people agreed with me on Cam Newton, my story kind of celebrating his Carolina legacy. And there were 20% of people who were just relentlessly negative. They either brought up his off-season or his off-field antics or on-field antics, whatever the hell you want to call it. Like what? Like he dabbed. I don't know, dude. It was ridiculous.

And then- He also gave footballs to kids forever. It's just like the guy has done so much good stuff. It's just all ridiculous. Let's leave that aside. I don't care. I don't care. I know.

I care about his play. People were posting screen grabs of Pro Football reference being like, he never had a pass-a-rating over a blank. He never had a completion percentage over this. If you watch Cam Newton and you think he's a bad quarterback, then what you have just told me is that you are new to football and you need to find out who's good and who's bad. This is your—congratulations, you've discovered the sport of football, okay?

That's what you're telling me, if you're telling me that Cam Newton was never a good quarterback, okay? So it makes me really angry that people don't appreciate how good he was not only in 2015, but before that. You know, he's not, in 2017, I think, he averaged 15 yards per run on the read option. And he was a good passer. I mean, this wasn't, you know, there was an amazing article from 2016 I found by Kevin Seaford, I think, where he said that not only did he have almost double the design runs of any other quarterback, but 66% of those runs were between the tackles.

Nobody else was playing that sort of style. That probably caught up with them. The ESPN said the other day that he's taken 1,235 hits so far in his career, which is by far the most of any quarterback. And I think that there's probably, you know, at some point that that does catch up with you.

But I still think that there's, listen, if the foot can heal, and that's not necessarily hit-related, and the shoulder can get to where it is, Cam Newton can still be a really good quarterback. I'll be really curious to see what Carolina's, just how they think about it going in. is this, what they just did, putting him on IR, is that them pulling the plug?

Is that them saying we're moving on? Because this is as emotional as it is practical, right? And I think that's going to play a huge part in it. I feel like Buzz Cook is really going to have to make his money this offseason. Because I think that kind of getting things out there about how healthy Cam is or isn't is going to be a big part of what drives his market. Because he's 30 years old. He's got to be hoping for a new contract at this point, right?

So it's not just the one more year in Carolina, it's that if Carolina has moved on, can his representation convince someone to take him? And I think that's going to be a huge question. I would take him. I mean, I think, listen, I don't think... I would take him if he's healthy. If he gets cut loose,

I think what's not going to happen is a team's going to go all on in Cam Newton, give him a multi-year deal, you know, don't have any competition for him. I think there might be a situation where he comes into a place, or maybe there's a rookie quarterback who's still around,

rookie contract quarterback, still around. Honestly, maybe it's Chicago. Would you take Cam Newton next year, I don't know, 14 a year for two years? I don't think it'd be 14 a year. You'd think it'd be lower? I think it'd be higher. You'd be higher, okay.

Yeah, I think you'd have to give him at least 20 million. I think that's the going rate for that kind of quarterback. I mean, it depends on the market. It depends on the market. I mean, Case Keenham got $18 million a year. Yeah.

This is a league where if you were that kind of stopgap quarterback. Case Keenum was coming off a playoff. run. You're right. He's healthy. He was healthy. That tier of quarterback. Health is so important.

Understandable. I think if he is not healthy, if he doesn't prove his health, I think you're looking at, you know, the $14, $15, $16 million range. If he is healthy. How do you prove your health? I don't know. I don't know. He's on injured reserve now.

I'm saying that's a problem. Again, the best solution is Carolina brings him back at $20 million for everybody, for everybody. Because I don't think he's, if he makes. $20 million next year, and that's certainly possible, then it's going to be in a situation that might be worse. You might end up in a place like Chicago. It might end up in a place like Tennessee. It might end up in a place like Tampa Bay who needs a stop gap solution and is looking for a younger quarterback down the line. Carolina, listen, do you think Kyle Allen is the long-term starter there? Absolutely not. Yeah. So if I'm them, I roll the dice and say, who cares? Let's bring Cam Newton back.

I think Kyle Allen's had some moments. I think that he's promising. If you want to develop him somewhere, whatever, if you want to keep him as a backup, that's cool. But Carolina's options are not Kyle Allen or Cam Newton. Carolina's options are probably keeping Cam Newton if you think he's healthy. Because if Cam Newton's healthy, there's no reason to go out and get another one of those stopgap quarterbacks. Who would be better than healthy Cam Newton? You already have him in the building.

So if he's healthy and you don't feel like you don't want to draft a quarterback, you don't think this is the time you want to move on, I think you keep him. But if you're ready, if you think it's in the best interest for your interest of your franchise just in terms of having came in the building, what that means, all that stuff, which matters, then I think that you probably move on and try to draft somebody. I don't think Kyle Allen is the answer even for one year. I really don't, because I think your roster's too good to do that. Yeah.

Listen, it's going to be one of the most fascinating things of this offseason. And I mentioned to see the quarterback market as a whole. I think there's a lot of questions to be answered with that. That's a huge part of this. Eight weeks, but it'll be, it'll be fascinating to watch what happens. And I think that's what I'm saying is that if Cam Newton's even slightly healthy,

if you are confident he's going to be able to play, then moving on from him to get a Marioita or a Winston or a Dalton or a Tannahill or a Foles or a Minshew or all these guys I think about on a daily basis now, it's not worth it because I think it's going to be such a lateral move that why wouldn't you just roll with Cam again? But there's so many factors involved here. I mean, pressing interesting questions about the entire league this year,

and I think Cam is a huge part of it. All right, let's get to your next one here, bud. Packers. Greg Rosenthal tweeted this out today. Packers are 31st in yards per play allowed since week four. Okay? Peter Bukowski on SB Nation, Packers' Block had a really good breakdown

of just how bad the Packers have been when the quarterback has time to throw. I believe they are allowing the most 40-yard-plus plays in the NFL. quarterbacks are just absolutely dicing them up when they have over 2.5 seconds to throw. So if they're not generating pressure, and listen, for many of these games, they have been, but when they're not generating pressure, things have gotten bad for them. The Packers have been a very strange team this year, and they've been very good, and we've considered them one of the NFC's best.

But at this point, they've been pretty inconsistent. You know, obviously they had the defensive victories in the beginning of the season. They were turning their ball over at an awesome rate, and then Roger starts carrying them a little bit. And last week, you know, things got weird in Los Angeles in a soccer stadium parking lot. And I'm wondering whether or not in the second half of the season they become the complete team to make the leap

and get in with the Saints and get in with the Samsonson's 4-9ers. Because from where I sit, if both the offense and the defense start firing at the same time, they absolutely are on that level. I just haven't seen that yet. Where are you on this? the defense is worrying, but I also think there are defense that's still in some transition. You know, Amos is in his first year with the team.

I agree. Savage isn't his first year with the team. You know, you bring in B.J. Goodson as a free agent this offseason late because they were so injured at linebacker and you have to kind of implement him in a strange time. They're, what they're doing defensively is kind of wonky, right? You know, they're playing Amos as a dime linebacker a lot. They're playing tons of defensive backs. Kevin King has struggled a little bit. You know, they have, God, what's that guy's name?

Chandon Sullivan. I mean, he's playing a decent amount for this team. I mean, they have so many moving pieces on the back end that I trust the talent to eventually win out. With teams like this, we've talked about it forever. I mean, you're really not the team you're going to be probably until like Thanksgiving. So I think they're still in transition to a certain degree. But I am with you, watching that game when they weren't getting pressure, they were just getting

diced up. Jay-A. Alexander also didn't have a good game. I think he'll be better. I tend to think they'll be all right, but they're definitely struggling to find exactly who they want to be defensively right now. Because when they bring Amos down as that dying linebacker, that's when they just get eaten up against the run. So if you're not going to be able to stop the run

and you're getting gashed by people throwing the ball at you, you're probably going to need to find a different solution. Here's what's encouraging, is you're right. There's a lot of new faces on that defense, even though Mike Patton obviously is the carryover. And a lot of young players who are getting better. You know, I think that that's one of the things about the guys who are holdovers is that there's a lot of youth there.

And I think that what's important in today's NFL is, you know, look, you don't have time to become a cohesive unit in September or October. So the fact that they were that good early on and that things will only get more cohesive from there as long as they stay healthy, I think that's important. I think that's encouraging and that's a sign they might be able to get there. I just, I want to see it because I think I would love to see Aaron Rogers with an elite defense in the playoffs going up, going to No. Orleans, going to San Francisco.

That would be one of the most fun things you could possibly see in the month of January. Yeah, and I think the encouraging thing for them is that it's not as if they've struggled. They've been successful for the most part. The seven and two. Yeah, the seven and two. We're not talking about the Browns here. The seven and two. They're going to probably win the division.

As you try to figure yourself out, as long as you're staying afloat and you're maintaining a playoff spot and you're pretty much ensuring that you're going to get into the dance some way, shape, shape, or form, that's what you need to do. As long as you're making sure that you're going to. to get there, you have time and room to figure it out along the way. And I think that's the stage they're in right now. Agreed. All right. I want to talk about a team that they roasted a couple weeks ago, but I'm very curious about what's going to happen with the Raiders this offseason and how good the Raiders can look on offense over the second half of the season.

They've been pretty damn good, man. And they've been pretty damn good without any receiving talent. I mean, Tyro Williams has been hurt for a good chunk of the year. Darren Waller, it looks like, a superstar. He has been amazing for them. The offensive line has been really, really good. I mean, they've really pushed people around on the ground. Their pass protection has been excellent. And Carr has really settled in to that in year two under Gruden.

The offense looks crisp. He's, I mean, he completed a couple throws against Detroit last week where I just kind of sat up in my chair and it was like, wow, they look really good right now. So I'm curious, if they continue this, what's their next offseason going to look? quite. First of all, can they make the playoffs? Second of all, what kind of pieces can they add and can Carr be the guy for them? I just assume coming into the year.

I think he can't too. And I feel like he struggled so much last year. And I probably didn't give enough creeds to the fact that it was his first year that the supporting cast was pretty bad all around. They've just been surprising on so many levels. And I cannot, I'm really interested in what's going to happen to them over the next six months here because I just did not expect

them to be at this level. and I did not expect this trajectory to exist for this franchise. I'll ask you a question. I agree with you. The Raiders have been extremely impressive. I've liked what they've done. John Gruden is objectively a good coach. Do you think this would have been different

if John Gruden did not have full personnel control the whole time? Like if someone like Mayock was calling the shots from the beginning and we didn't have the huge overhaul of the roster and that kind of thing, Do you think that Gruden, the GM, hurt Gruden the coach? And because I think Gruden is, I think we all can agree, probably, that Gruden, as we see now, is a really good coach. I don't know if you can necessarily say that. I mean, would you like to have Amari Cooper on this team?

Maybe. I mean, the first round pick is nice to have, but I think Amari Cooper was going to be pretty much as good and you had the money. I mean, you could have paid Amari Cooper not that much less, or not that much more than you pay Tyro Williams, right? So, I mean, I think that that one is, questionable. The Mac trade, it's hard to argue with it right now. Would Khalil Mack make this

team that much better? I don't know. I mean, they got two first round picks for him. Those first round picks are succeeding for the most part. I mean, Jacobs has been really good. So, I don't know. I don't think they put them that much behind the eight ball. I mean, I've, I'm definitely eating crow about the Mac thing. I would love to have them. I would do the trade again. But I think if you're Oakland, you'd probably do the trade again. So I'm not sure. And even what they spent a free agency this year. I think it'd come back to bite them down the road, but it's worked out for them so far.

I mean, Trent Brown has been excellent. I think that Williams has given them something when he has been out there. It's a lot of money. But right now, the way they've built this team, I think, is okay. I think they could be in trouble a couple years from now when some of these bills come due, but I don't feel like it's hindered him that much to this point. Yeah.

Okay. So back to, I generally agree with you. I think that, you know, someone like Amari Cooper would have helped this team. the Mac thing, I think we still have, I think the jury's still out on that. Obviously, didn't Gruden win the Sloan Sports Analytic trade of the year or something for training to LAC?

I think that's very silly, but... Well, let's put that aside for a second. So, Josh Chabot said this. Derek Carver's last five games. 70% completion percentage, 8.5 yards per attempt, nine touchdowns, one interception, 112 rating.

I mean, this is 2016 Derek Carr, and it's really fun to see. He's way better. than he was in 2016. Absolutely. Okay. He's a better quarterback right now than he was in 2016.

I mean, the Derek Carr thing to me is one of the most interesting career paths that we've got going on right now. If he can get to a place where he is a really good borderline top 10 quarterback

and he's, you know, obviously the last five weeks don't dictate whether or not he is, you know, permanently in that group. But that is fascinating to me. And I think that John Gruden deserves a lot of credit.

And I am, you know, at this point, it's working out. And, you know, only nine more years of this. I mean, in a way, Carr is in the same group as a lot of the guys we always talk about. When you have the circumstances and you have a chance to succeed. And even though he doesn't have a lot of pass catching options right now, I think that's a very well-constructed offense with an excellent offensive line. And that puts him in a spot to succeed. And he's taking advantage of it. I don't think that Derek Carr is one of those guys that's going to transcend whatever.

is around him. But if you put something around him, he has the capability of playing pretty well. And we're seeing that right now. All right. Last one. What's your next one? Referees. Kevin Sefert had a piece today at ESPN.com about just how bad it's gotten crisis and officiating. So, 63 total reviews for past interference. 14% have been overturned. Even when it's clear they have not been over, they should be overturned. They have not been overturned. My question is, the league seems to be not only making it up on the fly, but adjusting it on the fly seemingly every week. We went through about an eight-week period where they just decided they're not going to overturn anything. And then now they're starting to overturn a little bit.

It is so inconsistent, it is maddening. And I wonder if there's anything the NFL is going to do in the next eight weeks, the referees are going to do or Al Riveron is going to do that is going to get the focus off of referees, or is this just going to be a disaster through the Super Bowl? what solution do you think there is over the next eight weeks? Because I think that changing how they legislate it is not a solution. In one way. It's going to cause more confused. I think you think overturning more of them is good? I think the only way you can salvage this is either just overturn none of them,

which unfortunately they went back on a couple weeks ago and just tell, essentially without outwardly saying it, just get coaches stop challenging. Or just call it fairly. When you get the challenge and somebody's draped, make it a pass interference. Either throw the flag every single time when it really is deserved or never throw the flag. The problem is the inconsistent application at this point. Yeah, I just don't know how it gets more consistent. I almost think that not calling it ever or not turning, excuse me, not overturning it ever is the correct way to do this.

And then in the off season, just consider whether it should even be a rule anymore. But I agree, they were on that path and then they stopped. they got off the path and started overturning things. And I think that's when it becomes a disaster. Yeah, that's why it is a disaster. No one knows anything. It's, I don't know. I don't know what the solution is.

I don't think there is a good one. Their rule just, if they were going to implement it the way they did at the beginning of the seasoner for the first six weeks, whenever, it probably shouldn't have even been a rule. I agree. So now that, you know, the horse is out of the barn, I'm not exactly sure what to do here. It's them sticking with it was probably the move. Really bad. Really bad time for everybody.

Great stuff. All right. My last one here is essentially just who wins the tank fest. And what are the implications? Let me stop you right there because AJ Green says he's probably not playing this week. The Bengals are going for it, man. I'm really glad they kept him on the team. AJ Green might be the tank commander the last eight weeks of this season.

He knows. I understand why if they pick a guy next year and they bring AJ Green back. I get that. I'm really just kidding. but it really does seem like the dolphins could lose this thing, man. And I know that picking first or fourth and how much does it really matter, it matters a lot because you control the draft when you pick number one. It's not even just the guy you can get there.

It's the fact that you control how the entire draft works. That is why you undergo all of the pain and suffering that you have in the last year. If they somehow don't get the number one pick, I just, I cannot even imagine being a offense fan and sitting there with the number two overall pick, not knowing that you get to have anyone you want or all the picks. Dude, they play each other. That's all it needs to be said. I know. So if, let's say the Jets end up winning the tank fest and having the worst record, is there any way you can bring back Adam Gase next season? No, God, no. I don't think so either. Right now, can you just, is it over? Definitively, can you say that it's probably done?

Well, if Sam Darnold somehow rebounds and looks... That's the only way. Decent. But right now he's a broken quarterback and it looks like Adam Gace broke him. So there's that. No, I mean, we've talked so much about Adam Gase. It just, there's nothing to be done. That team sucks.

He has no good ideas. No. Get him out. But again, who are you going to get? You're going to get a worse Adam Gase probably. Honestly, with that situation, I don't think it matters. Yeah, I think not Adam. I think not Adam Gase is the best coach for.

the Jets right now. I agree. Before we move on, let's take a quick break. Support for today's show comes from sideline, the free real-time prediction app that lets you get more out of live sports. Look, anyone who listens to this podcast knows that I get genuinely excited by watching a random second quarter Kyle Shanahan play action concept. But I can still acknowledge that every moment of every game can't be as exciting

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Let's get to take shop. I'm going to kick us off here. We talked a little bit about Matt LaFleur's Packers earlier, and I think for the most, for most people for most of the season, we would have said that Matt LaFleur was the best first year coach. I kind of think that what Cliff Kingsbury has done in Arizona is more impressive than when Matt Lleflour is done with the president. Packers. I know the Cardinals haven't won that many games, but what the Cardinals

offense looks like right now, considering the talent the Cardinals have on offense, is incredible. There's 16th in DVOA, which doesn't seem impressive, but to be an average offense, which is about what they are right now, with essentially only changing, Matt LaFluor, excuse me, Cliff Kingsbury and Kyler Murray is remarkable. I mean, they have zero talent on the offensive line still. their receiving core is pretty much the same. Christian Kirk has been hurt for a good chunk of the year.

They're running backsers falling like flies. Kenyon Drake is the best one on the team now. He's been there for two days. They really move the ball well against the Niners team that was destroying people for the first half of the season. I just think that that pairing, the Kingsbury, Kyler pairing in Arizona, what has looked like right now is a success story.

No matter how many games the Cardinals win this year, their season is a success. if these guys continue to get better for the rest of the year. Yeah, and one of the things about Kingsbury is making adjustments every single week and getting better every single week. And that's really what you want to see at the NFL coach. He's learning, he's adapting not only to his skill set, but to the NFL because he's never coached in the NFL before.

So I've seen some encouraging signs. This was a really strange hire on the front end. But I think that if you were to map out the best case scenario, it's been that through half a season. Yeah, and it was schematically. especially because I think that the decision making has been wanting at certain points. I mean, they've done some really stupid stuff in terms of fourth down decisions, all of that for the first half of the year.

But that stuff has gotten better and the schematic stuff has gotten better. And the game plan he had against San Francisco, they're running a lot of like stick, you know, shoot routes on the sideline, getting the ball out quick. It's just and really taking advantage of Kyler's skill set. I mean, they can throw deep outs in a way that a lot of teams can't because of his arm strength. They're running a lot of them. it's just a really nice marriage. And we don't see that enough.

There isn't enough of that in the league. And even if they've been average, that's better than they have any right to be. I think it's been encouraging on their end. Yep. Totally agree. All right, what's yours? The Chargers need to move to London as soon as possible.

So Dean Spanos comes out and says it's BS. We're not going. Well, why? You already cut your PSL projection from $400 million in revenue to $150 million in revenue. That's bad. That's really bad.

You don't have any fans. You are going to move into a stadium that is 70,000 seats next year when sometimes it looks like you might not be able to sell 28,000 seats, okay? They can. It's just mostly the other team. Yeah, when they play the Steelers and the Packers and stuff. I mean, like, what's going to happen when they play some lesser, you know, with the Bengals, that kind of thing?

I mean, I went, listen, I went to a Browns Chargers game, and the Browns were working on O'N-16 and it was mostly Browns fans. Like if you can get invaded by a team that's not going to win any games,

imagine what happens when it's a good team, right? So I just don't understand why there'd be hesitation. Listen, who leaked this story? It wasn't the Chargers, okay? That seems to be the case.

And, you know, Mike Flores, some other people have written about this. There's probably some pressure from either the league office or the Rams who were certainly not happy. with the charter situation.

I just think that, you know, if everyone is shooting daggers at you, maybe you need to figure it out because it's not going to work in Los Angeles. It is not going to work. And this whole thing is, oh, they have a 20-year lease. They have a long time to build the fan base. I'm sorry, when is the NFL ever been patient when it comes to revenue? Like, the NFL is going to say, oh, no, no, no, you have 20 years to figure this out. It's fine.

You cut your revenue projections for 400 million to 150 on ticket sales. That's fine. No, they're not going to do that. And I understand people are saying, oh, well, London may not work. Well, it's got a better, you're going to be the only team there. And the market clearly can sustain football and one football team. I just don't, I don't think the Charter's thing will ever work on Los Angeles. Back to the drawing board.

You know, listen, the solution is to go back to San Diego. But that seems to not be in the cards. Because... I just doesn't see there's any way that it'll happen now. Well, no. I mean, so there was some rumors that there was some site, but then that's gone to San Diego State or something. so that's not going to happen.

I just don't... Whatever the chargers are doing now, do something else. That's the take shop. So there are four games in London this year. I'm just trying to figure out the logistics of this. Would it actually be possible? Well, they would move to the reports

that they'd move to the AFC South. Okay, yeah, that's... Even the geography is not what I'm really concerned about. It's more about just, can we have eight games? Can a team be in London for half the season? and realistically get back and forth in order to play all of its games without being on a plane for half of their lives? I think they could. I mean,

I think that you'd have to schedule it to where they'd have to have a bunch of home games and a bunch of road games. Sort of in the same way, you know, the bulls leave for all of a month because of the circus. Circus trip. They no longer exist. But yeah. That doesn't exist? What happened in the circus? No.

The circus is like canceled, man. We canceled the circus? We found the circus's old tweets? The circus's old tweets are like how they treated elephants. I'm pretty sure the circus is canceled. Okay. So there's literally, is there a circus trip anymore? Is it like just tradition?

I do not believe so. Okay. Neither here nor there. So it's that kind of thing where you would do three home games. You would kind of package it. I talked to an owner a couple of years ago. I say how this work. Essentially, this is not about the charter.

It's about a team. You'd have an East Coast base, whether that's Orlando. You know, a place with a lot of flights. It's Orlando, you know, South Florida, Atlanta, that kind of thing. And you would, I mean, it's like a trillion flights a day from Orlando to London. They can figure it out. But that's where you'd have your training camp, your OTAs, your preseason, your tryouts, most importantly. Because, I mean, it's really hard.

If you're just trying to work out six kickers, if Matt Nagy's the coach and they're doing a nine-man kicker competition, you'd have that, you'd have that on the east coast of Florida or the east coast of America instead of, you know, flying them out to London. So you'd have a home base of operations. You have to schedule it differently. You can make it work if they wanted to. If the bottom line is revenue and spoiler alert in the NFL usually is, you can make that work. I think you're right. At this point, there's no reason not to try something else because what's happening right now clearly isn't working. All right.

Let's get to the biggest three games of the week here. 49ers hosting the Seahawks on Monday Night Football. I wrote about this today. It's really good to have. have this game matter again, man. These are some of the best moments of my early time covering the league of the last 10 years of football period. And it's different now, obviously.

Richard Sherman's on a different team. Russell Wilson is the best player in the league instead of just a guy on those Seahawks teams. But I am very excited to watch those two jerseys on the same field again when it matters. Yeah, I agree. What do you want to see from each team in this one? I'd like to see how San Francisco holds up against a good passing offense because for the most part, they played no one good over the first half of the season. Then we saw what Arizona

did to them last week. So playing against Russell Wilson and a group that is just on fire right now, with the way that Tyler Lockett is playing, everything else. Josh Gordon is going to be on this team soon. So that's the side for the Niners I want to see. For Seattle, I think it's, again, the defense. I mean, their defense has played so poorly as of late. They got torched by the Bucks last week. Can they start to put something together on that side of the ball over the second half of the season? Because We've seen this all the time, right? Where a team has a great offense and you just need a hot run on defense. You need just to get on a streak where you can put it all together for six,

eight weeks and you can become a real contender. And I think that's what Seattle has to do because they do not have the talent on that side of the ball right now. So can they start to kind of put stuff together over the second half of the year and build a defense that's worth having Russell Wilson as your quarterback? I'm really looking forward to this game because I want to see what the 49ers look like against a really, really good Seahawks team. Now, it's going to be in San Francisco or Santa Clara. So I think Niners probably will win.

But the thing we keep coming back to is this is a schedule league this year. And the Niners have had a good schedule. I mean, they've had the Bengals, they've had the Browns, they've had the Steelers team that was kind of floundering when they play the Redskins. You know, I barely speak by the Cardinals. They destroyed the Panthers team. But that obviously, you know, it's a different. The Panthers are a little weird this year,

even though I think they're a pretty good team. This is the game I want to see. I cannot wait for this. There's a couple, you know, they play the Cardinals again the game after this one, but then they have Packers, Ravens, Saints. That's a great stretch. That is an awesome stretch.

They have Seattle again, right? They have Seattle last game in season. Yeah. So, I mean, it's, that's second half. And the Rams. Then they have the Falcons in the middle. Yeah. I mean, it's a good one, man.

I'm very excited to watch this. I think that we're going to learn a decent amount about both of these teams. I'm also curious to see how the Seattle line can hold up against the Niners Pass Rush because they've controlled games. And for as great as Russell Wilson has been, the Seahawks offensive line has still been not great this season. And now they get to have to go against Nick Boso. So, all right. Next one, Rams and Steelers.

I just wanted to talk about the Steelers briefly because I feel like their defense has really started to put it together. And I watched that game that they played against the Colts last week. And I understand that Brian Hoyer was playing for most of that game. but the Colts offensive line is arguably the best in the league, and the Steelers' defensive front just pushed them around. And that group has been awesome this year. It took five seasons, but Bud Dupree is good. So I don't know.

I think that the mega Fitzpatrick trade, I'm not sure if I would have made it still, even though he's played great just because who knows where their pick is going to end up. But that defense makes them interesting every single week. Okay, so let's put the value question aside real quick, and whether or not we do the trade. We talk about that stuff all the time. Let's just talk about how awesome Minka Fitzpatrick is.

Sean Jeele has been great. He tweeted this out. He said, Mika Fitzpatrick has the most interceptions by a Steelers defensive back since 2010, and he's played six games. I mean, some of it's like deflections and all that stuff. But I mean, like, he is a force back there.

And would you do the trick? The big six he had last week is awesome. I mean, that's just objectively amazing. Yeah, he's played, okay, so in seven games, 36 tackles, 36 tackles, four interceptions, two force fumbles, one CD scored. I mean, this is

what you want when you trade a first round pick. Now, would we do it? I don't know. I mean, listen, on trades, those things are, you know, move shape all the time.

And what's, let's worry about that in three years, whether or not you would do that trade. What's worry now about whether or not Mick up Fitzpatrick saved the Steeler season. You know, I saw that ESPN had a thing

about, you know, um, uh, first half MVP's and the ESPN chose Kevin Colbert as the Steelers first half MVP. And when you, consider that they wanting to win this year and not tear it down, you have to agree with that. He saved their ability after Ben Rothensberger goes down, making $34 million a year, franchise quarterback.

He saved their ability to compete with this trade and a couple of other moves. You know, the depth that quarterback has been not disastrous. I'm impressed by the Stewart's. It's funny because the Mega Fitzpatrick trade starts looking better as McA Fitzpatrick starts playing. better, not because he's playing well, because they're winning enough games to not have like a top seven pick. He's making the trade look better just by how many games they're winning. I think that's the funny part about it is that they've played themselves out of the top 10 because of him. So it's an interesting kind of dual approach to why that trade is getting better every single

week. And the contract looks great. I understand all of it. They have him cheaply for two more years after this. They can extend him if they want. I get that entire side. But this is still a team that's probably going to end up in the middle of the pack in the in the NFL and they're going to give away their first round pick. I think that's still a little bit hard to stomach. What I'm saying is if it's the 16th overall pick, then Minka Fitzpatrick is better than anybody you're going to get a 16th. That's fair. I think you could absolutely make that argument and he's again, he's making sure they get the 16 overall if you want if they are in the market for a quarterback after this season and they have to trade up to get the sixth pit, whatever it is, then the trade looks different.

There's a lot of ways that this trade can look different. What I'm saying is as currently constructed, make of Fitzpatrick is awesome. Let's deal with the rest of it later. Yeah, I'm with you. Watching him has been a blast and watching that defensive front has been a blast. I mean, T.J. Watt is really good. The last two years, he's been really good. Kim Hayward still just destroys people. And again, Bud Dupree, a career year and year five. Light has finally come on for Bud Dupree. All right. Last one here. Vikings and Cowboys. What are you looking for? First of all, Marri Cooper had an MRI on his knee on Wednesday.

And that's what I'm looking at because the most important thing is health, always. And so I'm monitoring that. Listen, the Cowboys, listen, the Baltimore Ravens lose the NFL in scoring percentage,

a 51% they're the only team in the NFL that scores on over half their drives. The Cowboys are third. The Vikings are fifth. These are two really good offenses. They haven't been consistent. They've laid some eggs.

I think that it will take a long time, possibly a decade for me to stop thinking about how the Cowboys lost the Adam Gays Jets. But at some point, you know, there's not that many good teams this year in the NFL. And at some point, you start to think about the Cowboys and the Vikings as real contenders to make a playoff run. I mean, the Cowboys are number one in offensive DVOA right now. Yep. And that accounts for opponent as well. Their passing offense has been fantastic for most of the season.

The rushing offense has been fantastic for most of the season. They've had those weird blips, but going back to health, most of those weird blips came when Tyron Smith and Lyle Collins were hurt or either are. And we have not seen this team for extended stretches with everyone. And that's why it kind of bums me out. Because you saw last week when they have both their tackles healthy and Michael Gallup, Randallup, Randall Cobb, and Amari Cooper, they can just destroy people. I mean, that's second half.

They moved the ball however they wanted. I understand that it's the job. giants. But that group at full strength is so scary. And we just haven't seen it very often. I still think they have what it takes on offense and the talent on offense to hurt the Vikings right now. Because as we saw last week, Minnesota's defense is struggling. And it's Xavier Rhodes. I think that he's probably the biggest part of that right now. But they're not playing on the back end how they have in years past. I think even without Amari Cooper, this Dallas team can still probably move the ball.

Yeah. Listen, what, if you were to lay bets on which team is more likely to go further in the playoffs with these two teams, who are you taking right now? Dallas. Why is that? I just have a lot more faith in deck Prescott to be this good over the course of the season. Man, Deck Prescott is so good this season. He's been fantastic.

He is so good. And it reminds me, it reminds me a little bit of the transformation happen with Russell Wilson. which was he had such a good supporting cast at the beginning of his career. I'm talking about Prescott and I'm talking about Russell Wilson that he was penalized in the conversation

because it was, oh, well, you know, he's got this running game and he's got these offensive line, he's got these receivers. Dak Prescott is a genuinely great quarterback right now. He's playing like it. He's really good. And I think that for some reason

the conversation hasn't caught up with how good his play has been. if you were handicapping the MVP MVP race right now where would he be? I mean he's not he's not in the top top

for me right now Oh I disagree You think he's with with Wilson and Watson And I don't know where you put Jackson and Rogers But in that I think those four

I think the first four you mentioned I think Wilson's number one To me it's not even It's not a conversation I'd have Prescott like fifth But on like the second tier after that Now I think he's right there With Watson and Jackson

I think that Presscott is playing better than Rogers. I'm talking about who's actually going to win the MVP. Oh, yeah. I'm talking about my personal MVP ballot. No, that's different. I mean, my personal MVP ballot is probably like, you know, fucking Stefan Gilmore or something. I don't know. Like, it's, it's, that wouldn't actually be my vote.

But, like, I think that I'm talking about, for only time about quarterbacks, which is the only people who win the award now that I thought we were discussing who would win the award. Prescott has been really good. 7% of his passes have been dropped. He's been this good, and 7% of his passes have been dropped that is second in the league. Second highest in the league. And if you're trying to build how they lost to the Jets, they had a ton of drops in that game, and they couldn't block anybody.

And now the offensive line is healthy again. So I think we're going to see more of the same. And I know that cousins had that great run. We go back to the Vikings or Cowboys question. But it was a four-game run, and the infrastructure of that offense is not nearly as strong. I know Theo and the Diggs are great. I know Daven Cook is great, but the line is definitely a concern still. I mean, Michael Bennett going against Pat Elfline in this game, could become a problem for the Vikings.

Their past protection, especially on the interior, is an issue. And the Cowboys don't have that. The Cowboys have a very good offensive line, very good receivers, a very good running back, and a consistent quarterback that's been good this entire year. I mean, it's been one or two games rather than the five-game blip that Kirk Cousins had to start the season, four games, whatever it is. So I still feel much better. the Cowboys offense.

And I think their defense is getting better. DeMarcus Lawrence has really come on, getting Michael Bennett has been big for them. They did not have an interior pass rush. I feel really good about this Cowboys team. They're frustrating at times, but I think their ceiling is as high as anyone in the NFC. I've said that all year.

Let me ask you one more question about Dak Prescott. So we've gone through the 2016 draft class so many times, golf, Wentz, Prescott. And I think that each of them have taken their turns in the spotlight. Prescott obviously shined really. early on as a mid-round pick. You know, Wence looks like an MVP in 2017. 2018 golf gets at the Super Bowl.

Prescott is undoubtedly on the top right now. He is blowing them out of the water, both statistically and eye test-wise. I think Wence has been pretty good. I think Wents has been better this year than you do, but continue. I think Wence is still a really good quarterback. But here's my question. Do you think that this is permanent

and that Prescott will end up being the best quarterback in the 2016 draft class? I think it depends on what happens with Kellynmore. Okay. Right. So the advantage that both Goff and Wentz have is that their offensive coordinator can't leave. Right. Right?

Yeah. I mean, their offensive coordinator can't leave. Their office creditor is their head coach. If he gets fired, that's the only way he leaves. With Prescott, we've seen how different he looks based on the system that he's in. When he was with Linnehan for the last two years, this thing really stagnated because that was not an offense that was conducive to quarterback success. this one is. This is a really well-designed offense. And if more leaves and you've got to start over again, then I think he falls back to Earth a little bit. And that's not a criticism of Dak Prescott.

I think we've seen that with every quarterback. You need a little bit of help. And some guys, you need a lot of help. And he's gotten it this year. And if more leaves, then I don't think it's certain. Sure. I just think Dick Prescott is really freaking good. And I think that at some point, I think that at some point he will rise to the almost Russell Wilson level. of being able to over... Oh, man. As far as being able to overcome his surrounding cast.

Do you get what I'm saying? Like, hypothetically... I disagree with you. You think in 2021, Dak Prescott will be a total product of his surroundings. I don't think it's a total product of his surroundings. I just think that Russell Wilson,

how many guys are in that class, man? I'm not talking... But I'm talking about Russell Wilson in 2014, which is his third season. was always this good. If you look at Russell Wilson's efficiency numbers, even when he wasn't asked to do a lot, they were still excellent. Right. Okay. I'm not saying he's going, he is Russell Wilson. I'm saying that he is going to rise to that role of being able to

overcome his surroundings. I'm saying that the most notable person, maybe, I think maybe you can throw Aaron Rogers into this category, who's had a scheme set up for them to fail and has overcome it. Here's the thing. This is all hypothetical because that's not the case right now. Dak Prescott has a good offensive coordinator. He has a good offensive support system. He has talent around him. If Amar Cooper is healthy, that only helps him. I'm just saying if things went south,

that I think Dak Prescott would still be a good quarterback. I think he'd be a pretty good quarterback. I think that Russell Wilson is in the class all of his own. I'm not saying, it's not criticism of Dak Prescott. I'm not saying he wouldn't be able to do this. I think Russell Wilson's the best quarterback in football. I'm not saying that he's good, that Dak Prescott is better than Russell Wilson

or even close to it at this point. What I'm saying is that they will have, I think Prescott can have a similar career path if things went south. I am not nearly as confident in that as you are. Okay. But again, that's not a criticism of Jack Prescott. That's just how I feel about quarterbacking in general. Okay. All right.

Quick pick for Thursday night? Raiders. Yeah, I'll probably pick the Raiders. I think it's going to be a fun game. I'm so excited to watch Joey Bosa go up against Trent Brown and that offensive line go against Ingram. and Brown because, excuse me, Angerman Bosa. I mean, they've been really good this year. They dominated against the Packers last week.

And that Packers' offensive line is excellent. So I'll be watching that. I'm excited to see Carr again. I think the Chargers defense has put it together a little bit. You know, the back end was so banged up for a lot of the season. But Hayward's playing well. I think King is playing better. They still have absolutely no talent on the second level.

But this is going to be fun. It's going to be more fun than we probably would have thought three weeks ago. Yep. If we were talking about who the fun team was, coming into this season. If it's a Chargers, Raiders game, we'd be talking about the Chargers. And now I think the Raiders,

the Raiders are just as fun. Oh, yeah. I mean, also, I think that the Chargers' offense still has a really high ceiling. When they're blocking people, and they probably will against the Raiders who don't have a very good pass rush, I still think they can really put up points.

I wouldn't be surprised at this were a shootout, and that would be fun. Yeah, I'm with you. All right. All right, guys. As always, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.

We will talk to you on Sunday night. You know,