The Ringer NFL Show - Baker’s Struggles, Year Two QB Panic, and Mahomes vs. Watson | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: October 10, 2019

We break down who's to blame for the Browns’ early-season struggles and how quickly QBs need to perform before it’s time to panic (2:30). Then we workshop some takes about trading Nick Foles and resting Patrick Mahomes (19:20); preview the biggest three games of the week, including Texans vs. Chiefs; and offer picks for the 'Thursday Night Football' game (30:50). Hosts: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. I want to tell you guys about a brand new podcast coming to our liminary slate called Sonic Boom. For more than four decades, the Seattle Supersonics were among the NBA's most iconic franchises. But in 2008, they packed their bags for Oklahoma. Hosted by the Ringer's Jordan Ritter-Con, Sonic Boom tells the story of basketball and politics, wealth and power, and reveals new truce about the NBA's greatest heist. You can find the eight-episode documentary podcast exclusively on Luminary starting October 3rd. Welcome to The Ringer NFL show.

I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing okay. You ready for Giants Patriots? I'm very ready for Giants Patriots. I'm currently in Green Bay, Wisconsin. I'm in a hotel room, so I'll be watching it somewhere in the Bay. The only thing to drink in the mini bar in this hotel is dark chocolate brandy, which I find fast. Is that where you're currently doing?

drinking? I am not drinking it. It's in a large bottle, though. I picked it up, but I was like, is that a bottle of whiskey? Why is it so big in the mini bar? But do you know why that is, Kevin? Because in Wisconsin, they drink their old fashions with brandy. Did you know this? I did not know this. It is one of like, it's an unofficial kind of state drink of Wisconsin is a brandy old fashion. It's a thing. Daniel Jones and Tom Brady, the biggest age gap matchup since 1950. Isn't that amazing? That's just going to keep happening. You've written about this in some capacities over the last couple years, whether it's the kind of forever quarterbacks or younger guys starting. It says a lot about the league that that's true.

It's not just an oddity. We have younger quarterbacks than ever being able to start because more quarterbacks are competent at a younger age. And we have guys able to play longer because of the way the game has changed, because of the rules, because of medical advances, because of science and nutrition. It really is coming out from both sides. Yeah. And that's the really interesting thing. Again, I've written, around last playoffs, I was talking about that where, you know,

golf versus Bree's set a record. Golf versus Brady set a record. Mahomes versus Brady set a record. Like, it seems like every single time there's an AFC title game, and it's starting a game of Super Bowl, there is an age-related record broken or threatened. And that's just going to keep happening.

This is the same caliber of game. I mean, this is pretty much an AFC title game or over Super Bowl. This is a big game atmosphere in New England tonight with Daniel Dimes coming to town. We're going to get to the Thursday night game a little bit later on. We're going to get to our biggest

three games of the week. But we're going to start off this show talking about a different young quarterback. And that is Baker Mayfield. I wrote about the Browns offense today on the ringer.com. You can go check it out. And this is something that I started to dig into last week. And then when some other things kind of came up, backed off it a little bit, the Browns won, everything else. I was really curious about what was wrong with the Brown's offense. And there are a few different things. There are so many elements to this. And it's not just one culprit. But Baker Mayfield is a big part of this. What I wanted to ask you, after we saw what Baker Mayfield could do last year, and now the way we're seeing in play right now, if this is Baker Mayfield, this version,

through the end of this season, how worried do you start to get? Because I think this starts to get into the idea of how early quarterbacks need to hit for us to feel better about them moving forward. Guys are hitting earlier and earlier. And it feels like after a year or two years, If the guy is not who you need him to be, he might not get there at all. So how does that line of thinking play into the way you're watching Baker Mayfield right now? It's a great question. So the way we frame this offline is does the quarterback need to get it and hit by year two? Yes.

I think that Baker Mayfield's a unique situation because he hit in year one. That's why he broke the rookie touchdown record and all that stuff. And I also think that it's hard to say really anything definitive about the learning curve and the aging curve of a young quarterback now because there's a real small sample size. first of all, there's just not that many great quarterbacks. Beyond that, the era of these quarterbacks playing right away or playing as a rookie is actually smaller than we think. I mean, you know, this is, Aaron Rogers will without a doubt be the last quarterback to ever sit three years.

There will probably never be a first-round quarterback sit two years. Patrick Mahomes was an outlier because of the planning that the Can City Chiefs did. And even he started a game in his rookie year, even though it was kind of an irrelevant game. And so I think that these guys being thrown out there, I wrote a piece this week about just how big the Gulf has gotten between the best and worst teams in the NFL. And Andrew Brandt, the former Packers executive, said, you know, this is the end of the placeholder era.

There's never going to be, like, in five years, we're not going to do the Tyrod Taylor and Cleveland thing. We're not going to do the Joe Flacco and Denver thing. We're not going to do those sort of things, you know, the signing AJ McCarran and Buffalo, because Josh Allen's not ready, whatever it is, and starting Nathan Peterman. My team did.

It drove me crazy. When they signed Mike Glennon, to me, that was the most frustrating part about the Chibisky pick. Right. You just spent $18 million on a guy. It doesn't make sense to do it that way.

We're coming to an end of that, and guys are just going to start week one, which has been happening in the past few years, but certainly, you know, Wence wasn't supposed to do that, and the San Bradford tried happened. The Cardinals went all in on Kyler Murray, and I actually appreciate that.

And so from the way I look at it, it's really hard to say, okay, a quarterback is to get up by blank. you know, the coaching change is very strange. And I don't know. I'm, are you worried? I guess the question is, are you worried that Freddie Kitchens

was not the right solution there? Part of me says yes. But I also feel like the whole staff changed offensively, right? So when I'm watching that offense, there are so many things that jumped out to me. The biggest thing is Baker and his just discomfort and how often he's bailing from the pocket, how often he's passing up open throws

that he just would have ripped last year. He's holding onto the ball. Holding onto the ball. So it's a combination of issues. If he was just being overaggressive and looking to push the ball down the field and that's why he was holding out of the ball, that's okay to a certain degree because that's the player he was last year. Freddie Kitchens told me this summer he likes that about Baker Mayfield, the idea that he's going to try to fit the ball into tight windows and he is aggressive. But then on the flip side of that, there are a ton of plays where there are guys open where the design of the play has worked. and he's being too passive. So being too aggressive in some moments and too passive in others, that's where you get screwed

because there isn't just one issue. They're starting to compound one another. So all of that stuff, though, has been combined with some of the smaller coaching things. There are details on the offense, route depths, certain motions and timings. And Antonio Calloway on that pick by Richard Sherman against the 49ers,

he makes his break inside like seven yards before he gets to Richard Sherman. You're supposed to be on the, guy's hip before you do that. It's tiny little things. So that's why I feel like there's no way to say if we fix this will get better. I do think there's a path to the Brown's improving, but I think it's coming from so many different directions. And I think that's why, to a certain degree, it is on Freddie Kitchens because it's not the quarterback. It's not this. It's not that. There's so many things going on that I'm not sure who you can put it on outside of him. And then the idea that they went from

Ken Zampeze, who, if you remember, Bob Wiley, the offensive line coach gave a ton of credit to after before this season and people kind of tacked it up to well he's just bitter that he didn't get to stay on the staff, whatever. But Ryan Linley is there. Ryan Linley has never been a quarterbacks coach. He came from being a graduate assistant in a small college and it just feels like Baker Mayfield is completely out of sorts.

He worked with some young quarterbacks as for an agency. But that's a mechanics thing. That's not a coverage thing. That's not moving kind of in the pocket and real time thing. I think that's more of a teaching guys how to actually throw a football and be a quarterback the same way we have, you see these private tutors work. But this is a very different

situation. And I think that Baker Mayfield has definitely regressed in pretty much every area. So it's hard to lay blame for me because it seems like everybody deserves a little bit. I just think that every quarterback, and I know this is hard to paint with a broad brush here, every quarterback is its own guy. You know, if Jared Goff didn't have Sean McBey in year two and did have him in year three, he would have broken out in year three. If he had two years of Jeff Fisher, we would not broken out in year two. You know, Matthew Stafford was hurt year two, and year three kind of became his year two, right? Peyton Manning had one of the worst seasons in the history of football when he was a rookie

and then looked like one of the best quarterbacks and, you know, a top ten quarterback the next year. It's all so strange. One of the things I think we've all forgotten about collectively, do you remember how much people used to roast me in Carson Wentz's rookie year? Because I said he was a top ten quarterback in the first month. And then Wentz started to dip, and everybody was like, nice call on Wentz, Jur. and because his stock had gone down so dramatically

from basically mid-season until the end of the season and then he starts off the next year like an MVP candidate. Like this stuff happens all the time with young quarterbacks. It's just whether or not we're finding out who he is. I don't even think we know who Jared Goff is yet. And he's older than Baker Mayfield. I just think the young quarterback is the hardest thing to nail down in football as far as who they are, what environmental factors are pushing them up

pushing them down. There's a million things here. And so for me to say Baker Mayfield is lost or Baker Mayfield is going to be great or he's going to be out of league in three years. I mean, one of the things that I found frustrating was there was a meme going around. And I understand that a lot of it is just internet jokes. But like, people were like, oh, he's just like Johnny Mansell. He's a new Mansell. He'll be out of like, like Johnny Mansell did not set the rookie touchdown record. Johnny Manzell came in and sucked. And then that was it. Like he didn't put in the work to be good. He just, he was, he was a complete disaster. Baker Mayfield is our, it was, was more accomplished in like three games than Johnny Mansell was ever. So this is not, to say this is

same old Browns is misguided at best. I feel, I feel the same way. And I think that framing of it is silly. I think you made a really good point that there are vacillations after a certain level of competency that you can show. So if you, let's it for what, I think he's the perfect example. He, he shows he can play in the league. And it's clear that he can. And then there are ups and downs within that. When you get to the second half of your rookie year and you guys have tape on you and you're running a lot of that North Dakota stuff and you really haven't been able to kind of ingrain yourself in the system the way that he did by year two, maybe you take a dip in the second half. Then the offense gets more complete. Everyone has more experience. The offensive line really gels in his second season and you see a jump.

So I do think that maybe we're learning quicker and quicker if guys can actually survive in the league, but it still is dependent on so many environmental factors that within that, there are going to be a lot of ebbs and flows over the course of someone's career, especially early on. You can't go from Nathan Peterman to like average NFL starter or above average starter, but you can certainly go from, you know, the 24th best quarterback in the league as a rookie to the 10th best quarterback in year three. That can, that sort of, if you can hang in the league, like you said,

we find out pretty quickly, and then you can start climbing from there. But no one ever goes from looks like they can't play football to can't play football. Like, once you see what Blake Bortles is, you kind of know a ceiling. And that was the thing about Baker, though, is that we thought, this is largely dependent on situation. You know, it's largely dependent on scheme and help and everything else. And we thought with Baker that he was in a good spot. We thought the scheme and the talent and everything else was enough to kind of keep him lifted up. And it seems like for the first five games that the schematic side of that is not what we thought it was going to be.

And he struggled as a result. So that's been a surprising thing to me. And when I wrote about it today, I kind of admitted that I was wrong about how good they would be. I'm happy to do that because I was. But part of the reason that I was so confident about it is that there was very little projection because we had seen what he was with this play caller. And now he had better help. So that's been the most shocking thing. but maybe, you know, that infrastructure was not nearly as sound as we thought it was going to be coming into the season when it comes to the scheme.

You know, I understand him being a head coach and the personality management, the penalties and all of that. That stuff can definitely change when a guy gets a little bit more power. But I thought that the offense we saw over the second half of the season was going to resemble the one we see now, and it just hasn't been there. Who do you feel better about Baker Mayfield or the quarterback who's entering their, the offense that was the worst, offensive team in the last 43 years and had to give a press conversation today that says, I'm not in danger anymore. I mean, I would necessarily agree with him on that point, first of all. The danger thing? I know.

His spleen may not explode, but I think he's still in danger. Out of one particular danger and into a very different, very specific type of danger. A very Adam Gase-tinged danger. But I feel better about Baker still just because I've seen the heights be higher with him. And when I watch Baker play, I went back and watched all of his games and all of his throws over the last couple weeks.

And there are so many moments where you're like, what is happening? What are you doing? Why? The drift to the right thing is becoming like a Chuck knoblock type situation where it's a tick. It's a tick that is so bad that teams are literally scheming for it. They're running these loops in order to have, they'll crash the defensive end inside to make him think that he has an escape route to the right, when in reality they're just

running a T. e-stunt and the tackle's coming around. They're scheming to his bad habits, which I think is fascinating, first of all. But it also lets you know how pronounced it is. So when he's doing stuff like that, it's so frustrating because then you see a couple throws where it's the type of stuff we talked about in camp where I decided watching him throw football is a little different. It's so violent and he still is very accurate in a lot of these passes.

So you see those moments creep up and you're like, man, if they could just get that 15% more 20% more. And they just can't. There's such a lack of rhythm to what they're doing right now. It's still enough and the moments are still good enough that I have a lot of faith

in his talent, just winning out eventually. But you start to worry that the habits and some of these things that are becoming a little bit more ingrained are not going to go away. Because I think after a certain point,

they do start to settle into who you are as a quarterback. You start to see ghosts. You start to be just completely uncomfortable and discombobulated. And I'm really worried that we might be getting at that point if he does this the entire season.

When I talked to John Dorsey before Baker was a starter, and he said a lot of different things, but one of the things he said was, wait till you see Baker's release, wait until you see how quick can get the ball out, how we can run that offense so quickly, the quick snap stuff. And you saw it last year, and you're not seeing it this year. And if you're not doing the things that got you to greatness, that's a real concern. And so I just think, I don't know if it's, I don't know what you do. I mean, I guess you just, if you're a coach and you're the quarterback coach and you just try to just kind of get back to fundamentals here.

Yeah. And that's the problem is that they just don't seem like they know how to put him in a rhythm. They don't know how to put this entire offense in a rhythm. We'll get to the Browns at large a little bit later. If Freddie Kitchens, can I ask you one question to put a ball on this? If Freddie Kitchens wasn't the answer, who would have been the answer? I don't know. That's why I was okay with him getting the job.

I shouldn't. We should know better by now. about hiring the interim, even though he wasn't even the interim head coach, which is kind of funny, but hiring the guy that showed you a flash that for whatever reason had never gotten there before. But I think that that's a really good way to frame it because who would have been? Who would you have felt better about getting the most out of Baker Mayfield than Freddie Kitchens because of what we saw last year? I just don't know if there's a better option than that.

Yeah, I'm with you. I can't think maybe you throw a bunch of money at Lincoln Riley. Maybe, but how likely is that? How likely is that Lincoln Riley is going to leave this perch he sits on in Lincoln where, or not in Lincoln, excuse me, in Norman, where he's making an ungodly amount of money. And he gets to run the entire show. And he gets to be the coach of one of the most successful college football programs of all time. It's a really good job.

These colleges have a ton of money now, man. Unless it's all about ego, I don't know why you're leaving that gig. My favorite report this week was that Lincoln Riley's not interested in the Redskins job. Oh, really? Yeah, shocking. Really? Who could have thunk it? I mean, like, did the person who wrote that even have to make a call,

or do they just sit there and just type it up? Yeah, that's an easy one. You don't have to have a ton of reporting shops to really knock that one home. And now it's time for the State Farm Safe Bet of the Week, the offense you can count on. We need a game plan for protection. State Farm agents are here to help. With personalized service, agents are available to talk in person,

over text, or through the State Farm app. So go with the one with coverage and agents. can count on. Find an agent in your neighborhood today. Robert, we want to focus on one of the many mismatches in the league this week, the Jets and the Cowboys. Last week, the Philadelphia Eagles played the New York Jets. And Philadelphia Eagles, some of the areas of their team were struggling a little bit. Had a couple down weeks. They really needed a jump start. And there is, there are a few better jumpstarts in the NFL right now than playing the New York Jets on both side of the ball. And that is one, I think the 10 sacks. Ten sacks for the Eagles. Ten sacks for the dormant Eagles. Ten sacks for the dormant eagle.

pass rush. This week, I think it's the dormant Dallas offense that is going to be catching the New York Jets at the exact right time. Yeah, I asked you off air if C.J. Mosul is playing, and then we kind of laughed because we realized it doesn't actually matter. The Jets are a disaster on both sides of the ball. Sam Donald is coming back. I'm not sure how much that will help. The Jets, this season,

are the worst offense in 43 years. I understand that they were down to their third string quarterback, Lots of teams have been down to their third string quarterback. None of them were as bad as this current Jets team is. They're averaging 3.16 yards per play. Christian McCaffrey, the outstanding Panthers running back, is averaging more yards per drive than the entire Jets team. I think that says it all.

So this is going to be a blowout. This is going to be a confidence builder for the Cowboys. The Cowboys are going to be able to do on offense, whatever they were able to do against competent teams, but more so. Absolutely. And I think the Cowboys were closer against a team like the Packers than it seemed. You know, it's a tip ball here. It's a tip ball there.

It's a tip ball interception. It's Dak missing maybe one or two throws he would have hit. It's them getting behind and not being able to run the ball the way they probably wanted to him. And Zeke Elliott was good in the first half. He's averaging about six yards per carry there. And he only had three carries in the entire second half because they were in so deep of a hole. They're not getting into a hole against the Jets. They're not stumbling against the Jets.

They're going to be hitting it right away. and they're going to be hitting it hard. And I just think this is definitely the week where the Cowboys get back on track. I agree. State Farm. Talk to an agent today. All right.

Let's get to this week's take shop. I want to talk about a quarterback that I think is playing the way I thought Baker Mayfield would. And that is Gardner Minshu in Jacksonville. I know that there are a lot of complications with this in terms of the money and all that. But I feel like we've gotten to a point that the Jag should trade Nick Foles.

Maybe not now, but definitely this off-season. If this continues, with Minchu. I just don't know how you justify not having him be your quarterback. He, by the way, it was added to the injury report with... Did you see what he was added to the injury report with? No. Slight groin-sornness.

Which is... It has to be a bit. That has to be a bit. He had to have reported that just for the general. There's so many things I want to say right now that I'm just not going to. But it's fine. Let's move on. Okay. Anyway, I tend to agree with you. We've seen Nick Foles's ceiling.

Nick Foles is, I kind of like the Nick Foles got paid. I kind of think Nick Foles' destiny to be the best backup quarterback in the history of football. I totally agree. I think that's a really good way to put it. Or a breaking case of emergency option for a team that really needs him, maybe it's the Bears a team like that. I wouldn't be thrilled about Nick Foles,

but for $15 million next year, whatever. Like how quickly, and something we talked about two years ago, but how quickly he adapted, how quickly the Eagles adapted, it's one of the football miracles of our time. If I was a, I wouldn't pay him as much as the Jaguars are paying him, but if I was a contender, I would want Nick Foles on my team.

The problem with the Bears is that he's better than the starter. Yes, he would be the starter in a place like Chicago. But a team, we've talked about this too much. I don't want to get into it again, but the Bears would have to be a little bit creative considering they don't have a first round pick next year. Right. They're probably not going to be able to pick their guy.

So if you feel like you can contend with Nick Foles, then maybe he's an option. In terms of Jacksonville's money, there are ways to do this. It's not ideal, but you can save $6 million by cutting DJ Hayden, which wouldn't be no one's crying over that. Jake Ryan, you can save $6 million by cutting, I don't know how Jake Ryan's cap hit is 6.2 next year.

That's crazy. Abrey Jones, they're definitely going to release Marsaul Darius. That's $20 million. So the cap, they're $10 million over the cap as it currently stands. So you could say, how could you possibly give a guy a $20 million cap hit if you trade him? But they're going to get under that very quickly. So it wouldn't be ideal. but if you want to give the keys to a guy like Gardner Minshu,

and we know this is an organization that feels like symbolism matters with your starting quarterback, which is why they gave Nick Full so much money, then I don't think this is out of the realm of possibility. I went back and watched the Carolina game again today, and the dude's just real. This isn't some oddity or this isn't some novel, this is some novelty where he's got a mustache and a bandana and it's fun. He plays quarterback. He's really good at it.

He's manipulating guys with his eyes, the way he's kind of taking these small hitches. On the first touchdown throw to a chart on the 11-yarder, he takes this little hitch to make the corner flip his hips and then throws the pylon route instantly. That's next level quarterbacking. That's a type of stuff like Baker Mayfield is not doing right now.

He's accurate. This is not some fun story, and that's all it is. The guy's actually really good. And that's why I think this should be on the table. Before I get into the football aspect of it, Lindsay Jones, I thought I did a piece on Minchu and his family a couple of weeks ago.

And the one detail I can't stop thinking about is that they were, Lindsay and Flint Minchu were talking about where to eat before during their interview. And he only had one request and it was no vegan restaurants. That's incredible.

Which is just that, that tracks. We'll just say that tracks. Lindsay lives in a very granolae place. So sometimes she's living that lifestyle. I don't think she was going to go vegan with the Minchews. Anyway, I'm not sure she was either. I kind of think that the Minchu thing is getting into one of the most significant what-ifs of the last couple of years.

Because if Minchu doesn't catch fire here and create a cultural phenomenon, maybe Jalen Ramsey's on the Eagles right now. Maybe Jail and Ram's on the Ravens right now. I mean, this changes a lot. Do they bring some of the guys back that maybe they were thinking about not getting? Leonard Fournette is just breaking off big runs all the time. He's not, what does Bill say? He's not rejuvenated. He's just juvenated.

Like, he's never really played like this before. And what about DJ Chirk? Do we know that DJ Chirk can do this? He's one of the best receivers in the league right now. I love this. This is answering so many questions but the Jaguars franchise and has having a huge ripple effect. Do you know who's also just loving this?

And he's kind of getting the last laugh a little bit. John D. Philippa. Oh, yeah. He's back, baby. I mean, there are some throws where Mitch is really impressive. but there are a ton of plays where even against a really good defense like Carolina where dudes are just wide open.

John D. Filippo is a good past game coordinator. He was not the correct offensive coordinator for the Vikings, but that dude actually knows how to call a passing game and he's doing a fantastic job right now with a quarterback who's just feeling it. Yeah, it's awesome. It's one of the

best storylines from this year. And the Thursday night game with him was just incredibly fun. We need more. Yeah. And that game last week was really fun. Hardener Minchie should play on Thursdays every single week. The Jags just have a standing date on Thursdays now. I don't care. I would honestly be totally fine with that.

All right. Is that your end of the take shop? That's it. That's all I got. I have a take shop. I want to read some stats from the NFL. After Mahomes' ankle injury, okay? He threw from the tackle box 86% of the time before his ankle injury was 68% of the time.

Pressure rate 38% after, before 19%. pressures evaded 20% before it was 40%. Completion percentage is the important part. 64% before, 42% after. Now listen, this is a small sample size. And Patrick Mahomes hobbled and unable to move around is still much better than anything in Chicago or many other places around the NFL.

But when I look at this type of situation, there's a really cool game happening this weekend against Deshaun Lawson. I want to see how Patrick Mahomes gets through that if his ankle is still hot. Remember, he injured it the first time in Jacksonville. But what I'm saying is, you've already got a loss in the schedule. The Patriots will not have a loss on the schedule after this week when they play the Giants. And I would consider, for the sake of a Super Bowl run, sitting Mahomes and just getting them healthy for one of these gimmie games. They play the Broncos in a couple weeks.

They play... That's no longer looking like a gimmie. against that defense, though. They're playing much, much. Yeah, I mean, maybe that's the reason he don't do it. So they have the Texans, and they play the Broncos in two weeks. Then they play the Packers, the Vikings, the Titans. From my perspective, you see how he plays this week against Deshaun Watson,

that Texan defense. And then you think on a short week, they play the Broncos on a short week. For the sake of the franchise, you saw the difference, you know, night and day between before the ankle injury and after the ankle injury. Maybe we just take it easy, make it map more time for one week. I think more, I think... You know there's a zero percent chance that happened. Of course.

But what I'm saying is we're entering the era of load management in the NFL. I've talked to everybody about it. I'm working on a piece about it, all this stuff. And the one thing that hasn't happened ever is kind of erring on the side of caution with an elite player and saying, you're just going to sit out. I think that's kind of what's happening with Cam Newton right now. I kind of, well, I don't know about that. Camden looked like really bad.

I think it's a little bit worse, but I do think it's in the same realm. Patrick Mahomes still looked awesome. That's fair. Even though the numbers were different. What I'm saying is that if it comes down to, you know, Patrick Mahomes being 100% in a month versus Patrick Mahomes being at 75% the entire way, I don't know. I mean, listen, the chiefs have a great medical staff.

Andy Reid's a lot smarter than me. Brett Beech is a lot smarter than me. I'm just throwing on a wild take shot. That's what this segment is for. We throw a takeout and then we workshop it. So that's my thought. Let's just take the load management era one step further, sit him on a short week against the Denver Broncos. Me saying that it's never going to happen is not me trying to discount you putting it in this segment because you're 100% right.

It makes a lot of sense to me. The problem is that in a 16 game season, it becomes so difficult to do that. Of course. Because if you drop a couple, if you drop one of them to the Raiders, for example, and they're only a game back of you in the division right now. Stuff like that, it's just it's much more difficult because the game, the season hinges on so many fewer results. I think I have a bit of a spoiler for you. The Chiefs are going to win that division.

Even if Patrick Mahomes is a month, though. I'm not asking a month. I'm not asking a month. I'm asking a week. Oh, a week. Oh, yeah. Sit about a week. Sit about two.

Yeah. I'm saying a game against the Broncos. Maybe you wait. I don't know. The Packer is a little hard because you're going to want to win that game. But you don't mean to win that game. I'm saying it's going to be a shootout. Are you sure?

But I feel like you'd rather lose that game than you'd lose a game to the Broncos. The one and four, because you know or lose to a game in your division. I think the Chiefs are going to be fine. I'm not too worried about the Raiders. I understand what you're saying, though. All I'm saying is that maybe you miss one game here.

I don't think that's the craziest thing in the world. I actually think it's a really good idea. That's what the Bears did with Kalil Mac last year. He could have played. He set out the Dolphins game, I want to say, and I can't remember the other one. He sat out two games, though, and he had been playing. And they essentially just said, you know what?

This is not worth it. We are going to get him right. And it was a really good idea because it was much better for him to play at 100% than it was for him to play as a shell of himself. Yep, that's what I'm proposing here for the best quarterback in football. Yeah, it's a little bit different. I do love Cole Mac, but it's a little bit different when it's the most valuable player in the entire NFL.

That's correct. Although Cole Mac's probably the most valuable defender. Mr. Aaron Donald would have something to say about that. Support for today's show comes from Sonos. Every Sonos speaker is designed from the inside out for incredibly detailed sound and deep bass and fine-tuned by Oscar and Grammy-winning producers, mixers, and artists. Starting your system is easy. Just plug Sonos in and open the app for step-by-step instructions.

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I was like, hey, how long do I need to do this? I put it off for like a day and a half. I eventually take it out of the box. I open it up. It takes me 15 seconds. And it's working instantly. A couple pushes of the button. You connect it to your Wi-Fi, and right there, it is just blasting, the highest quality sound you could possibly imagine.

This move is out by my grill while I'm cooking. It's everything you could possibly want in a portable speaker, and it's so easy that even I can do it. Enjoy Brilliant Sound Anywhere with Sonos Move, the durable, battery-powered smart speaker for indoor and outdoor listening. Check it out at sonos.com. While we're on that topic, I want to start the biggest three games of the week, and I want to start with Brown Seahawks. because I feel like right now the most valuable player in the league, the best player in the league,

at any position this season has been Russell Wilson. Do you think that's fair? Yeah. I saw a great stat from Barnwell the other day. I don't know if you saw it, that the NFL next-10 stats is something called dimes, which is downfield throws within a yard or something. So it's literal dimes.

And we're not literally. But Russell Wilson, him, Russell Wilson has 40, which is more than any other quarterbacks in 2016. Matthew Stafford is actually second. But this is what we're talking about. Like, Russell Wilson, when he's kept upright, when he gets to do the things he wants to do, is as good as anyone in the league. I saw a staff from PFF that he had an average of 3.45 seconds with the ball in his hands

last week. Okay. and when he had when he threw the ball after he had the ball for 2.5 seconds, Wilson had the second best pass the rating of the week completed 10 of his 13 pass for three touchdowns. That's from PFF. When I start to think about Russell Wilson

with the ability to do what he wants back there, I get very, very, very excited. It's, he's been remarkable. And I've always thought we've espoused his praises often on this podcast. We've long said he's one of the best quarterbacks in the league. And Pete Carroll said this this week. and we can get into that in a second, but that Russell Wilson's playing better than he ever has.

And I totally agree with him. His expected completion percentage this season is 62.5, which is based on receiver, it's about throw depth, receiver separation, all that stuff. His actual completion percentage is 73.1. That's a 10.5% difference. It's the biggest in the league by two full percentage points.

Drew Breeze's second. Drew Breese has played like two games. That's crazy. that metric is so interesting to me and I really like it because it tells you how much better a quarterback is playing than his offense would typically dictate. And that's my problem with the Pete Carroll stuff,

is that I still believe that the Seahawks are holding back Russell Wilson to some degree and it just doesn't matter anymore. He's playing so well that he's just able to drag them to wins left and right. Hey, do you... If you could pick a destiny,

like if you could have been drafted by anybody, who would you have picked Russell would be drafted by in 2012? Andy Reid. Yeah. What about like Sean Peyton? Yeah, that's a good one too. I think Andy Reid is just the one that jumps out to me because I still feel like that

passing game is the best design, but Sean Payton's right there. I mean, you can throw out any of those guys. Andy Reed, Sean Payton, I think those offenses just because they're so different. I mean, I guess the old Sean Peyton offense, the Saints run the ball a lot now, but it just feels like seeing him and that would be remarkable. And Mahomes, we say this all the time about him. Who else can make that throw? Who else physically can make that throw?

And I often think that Wilson is in the same conversation with a lot of those passes. Not all of them because Mahomes is in a different category. But I do think that Wilson is not that far off with some of this stuff. And I think we've seen a lot of that this year. Do you, I think this has come up a little bit recently as we really started to hammer the conversation

of if they threw the ball more, how much more successful would they be? Do you think that part of his success is based in the fact that he's able to be so efficient because they do not throw that much. I don't know. I mean, I think that defeat through the ball 50 times a game, he would still be awesome.

I think so too. And I would like to see that. I just think there's an argument to be made about just kind of how much, you know, is there a thing where it's efficiency? It's like being a three-point shooter doesn't have to shoot that much, you know? You're only taking the best shots.

But he's not taking the best shots. So that's why I think this is, it's kind of misguided. But I really do feel like he's in that conversation right now. Listen, the first podcast that we ever did together in this studio, I said Russell Wilson's the best quarterback in football. Like this is, we've known this for a while. So they're playing the Browns this week. I feel like if we see the Brown's offense that we've seen, it's going to be a big problem.

Because like I said before, a lot of teams are trying to do this stuff where they're muddling it up up front and making Baker feel like he has escape routes, all that. And when you have Clowny who for, I love the way the Seahawks have been using him, he's just an agent of chaos. that's all he is. He barely has a position. They just keep moving him around and it's just like, all right, wreck shit,

that's your job. And against this Browns team that's having so much trouble with understanding how their pockets should work and everything else, it just feels like it could be a really big day for him.

You just get to wreck shit is my ideal job description. Yes, and he's perfect for it. And that's why I really like the way they've been using him. It's ideal. And he is such a fun, different player

when he's just let loose. And they really, have done that with him. Yep. All right. What's next? Chief Texans, I want to,

is Deshawn Watson, Patrick Mahomes, the most exciting quarterback matchup in the NFL to you right now? If I could just have anybody right now? Yes,

if you could watch two guys. I kind of want to see Mahomes play, play the Patriots again. Is that basic? So that's not, that's not the quarterback match. No,

I know, but I kind of, I just love seeing Belichick go against stuff to do with Jonathan Jones. I understand the quarter. It's a confusing question. I'm making it a confusing question,

even though it shouldn't be. I know what you're saying. But I'd rather see Mahomes against a couple other defenses. But I understand what you're saying. But two guys just slinging it around. Are they the two that you'd want to see just go back and forth touchdown for touchdown right now?

I would like to see Mahomes versus Wilson right now. I think that's true. I also think that it's within their own offenses that they have to exist in currently. and I think the Texans just let Watson go nuts. I think before the year, I would have thrown Baker into this. I mean, it's just far as the excitement. I would have too, which is so sad.

It makes it so depressing. I loved a lot of the stuff I saw from Houston last week. They were doing more of that max protect two guys in routes. And when you have those two guys, I just love that strategy. Because you're ensuring that Watson's going to get the ball off. And I don't have faith in a lot of secondaries to stick with those two. are those two combined right now with Fuller & Hopkins the scariest

wide receiver duo in the NFL not the best but the scariest um and maybe yeah I feel like they are really really productive they are really really productive so right now I wouldn't you know I think that I do think we have to

just point out that you know the schedule has been you know a little bit a little bit easier they play the Falcons the Falcons are bad they give up 53 points because that's what the falcons do. So I want to see more here. And I'm expecting an exciting game here,

but I'm not going to just completely overreact to a Texan game last week that was against a falcon team. No, I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I just feel like the overrunners 5.5 or 55 and a half. I feel like that's fair. And we're going to get close to that. On the flip side, we saw what the Colts did to the Chiefs last week.

A lot of man coverage. A lot of sticky man coverage. I don't know if that's necessarily a, blueprint for how to play the Chiefs, considering we have no Tyree Kill, all of that. Watson's banged up, or Mahomes is banged up. Do you think that we'll see something similar from the Texans and do you feel like that is the way that you have to go at the Chiefs right now? Yeah, I saw that and I think that there was something similar with Watson too where they both struggle against man coverage relative to zone. But on the other hand, like their quote unquote struggling is

still just better than, again, not to go back to this well again, but significant better than anything going on in Chicago. And so... God damn it. Yeah, you know, that's on you. And so... That's true. It's a pick your poison thing, for sure.

I mean, it's not... Remember those stats from Tyrod Taylor a couple years ago where the splits were just outrageous between zone and man? That's not this. These guys are still pretty good no matter what defense you throw at them. Kind of, we got a little bit more nitty-grady

before we move on to the next game here. I think that injuries on both lines for the chiefs or something to look at. Eric Fisher's still out. Wiley is questionable for this game. You have a Texan's front that's very good. Merciless has had a really nice year. Watt is still Watt.

I think feeding him to Mitchell Schwartz on Thursday or on Sunday would be a mistake. I feel like they should move him around more, try to take advantage of just the shuffling moving parts on the interior of the chief's line. And I think on the other side, no Chris Jones in this game. And the Chief's pass rush has not been great all season with him. So if Chris Jones is not kind of there pushing the pocket, I feel like Watson's going to have a little bit more time. do not trust the chief secondary to hold up.

All right. Let's move on to our third game here. It's the battle of the geniuses, man. Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh. I feel like Kyle Shanahan has may have taken the mantle back of the best offensive play caller in the league. Do you think that's fair?

From Andy Reid? From Andy Reid or McVeigh. I think those are the two guys that probably in the conversation. I think the season that Shanahan has had, I think he may be back there now. This seems like a column for you. I got to think about it more

I wasn't prepared for that specific thing but that is we're going to see it I thought that it was really interesting there were some there were some really good visualizations

that NFL next gen stats put out about how defenses are playing the Rams and it really does seem like with the two safety stuff the Patriots really did a really did provide a blueprint and obviously there no that was happening way before

no so so there was this has been debated a lot right did the lion started did vic fangio started or did bellichick started and it seems to be it's kind of the victory as many fathers thing that a lot of the bear stuff came from came from fangie from um excuse me from um patricia and then i'm not i forget exactly what fangio contributed to it and then obviously uh what belichick was able to do was put you know jonathan jones and and take away almost everything underneath with with and and have speed down there. Yeah, it was that robber

kind of covers this buzz, that buzz stuff they were doing. Everyone, everyone... The 6-1 though had gone on long. No, no, no, right, right. But that's not what I'm talking about the coverage stuff. Gotcha. And so, yeah,

Fangio did the 6-1 stuff, that, that whole thing. But Belichick combined that stuff that had already been out there with some really cool coverage techniques and that hurt. But again, the Rams have had a good start to the season. Like, they still have a lot of good players in their winning games.

So this, you know, if there's a blueprint, the best case scenario, the Best case scenario is everything we're saying and have been saying for a month is correct and that teams have figured out how to play the Rams and that this is what they look like. And this is their baseline. And they're still winning games and they can tweak things to sort of go forward. Because I think Sean McVeigh is smart enough to understand what defense are doing and make adjustments. Maybe they haven't for a couple of weeks start the season.

Sean McVe acknowledges 6-1 stuff on a podcast a couple weeks ago. He says, we're probably going to see more of it. My guess is that Sean McVey is not Chip Kelly. And what I mean by that is Chip Kelly got to the NFL, had a few things, never made adjustments. Our Chris Brown wrote an incredible column about this at the beginning of the 2017 season, I think, where he basically just never made adjustments once he got to the league, and especially with the 49ers, and then just flushed out of the league. That's not Sean McVeigh.

One of my favorite things about this season so far has been watching Sean McVeigh try to figure this out in real time because he's thrown a couple different things at it. Early in the season, they were using a lot of 10 personnel. for receivers trying to spread things out a little bit more, that didn't necessarily work the way that he wanted to. So last week against Seattle, they used 12 personnel almost exclusively on their first couple drives. What they're trying to do is they're trying to widen those six guys out

and then run inside zone back to it. So they're trying to make sure that they have the bodies on the bodies and they're trying to make teams pay for being so wide and not having players on the second level. That is fascinating. He's trying to find solutions, and even though they haven't come smoothly, watching him chip away at this

has really been indicative of, or just kind of a window into a really smart football coach trying to solve problems on the fly. And it's been so fun to watch. They're doing this stuff now. They ran a play to cup where, usually on play action, they would have him go behind the linebacker,

but they actually had him threaten vertical and turn around because linebackers are getting so much depth against them on play action now. So he's coming up with small answers to this stuff, And even though it hasn't been gangbusters, I do think you're starting to see them breaking through every once in a while on these little tiny answers. And it's really cool to watch. Yeah.

And this is going to be an awesome mashup. I'm really, really excited. It's really fun. I'm bummed out about the use check injury and the McClinty injury because watching that 49ers run game so far has been amazing. The stuff they're scheming up is so smart. On the breed of touchdown that started the game, it was a, it looked like an outside lead to the right. this type of stuff you see all the time from them,

and then they countered it back. They almost never ran counterplays under Shanahan last season. They're doing a ton of it now. So what they're doing is they're trying to get the ball on the perimeter as fast as possible, whether it's through these outside zone plays, tosses, they give a jet sweep to George Kittle, and then they're hitting teams back with it.

They ran a reverse to Goodwin. They're doing these design counterplays. His run game right now is, to me, my favorite thing to watch in the NFL in terms of schematic stuff. But it is not my geeks out of the week. Yeah, it's geek out. that is going to be the New Orleans Saints defensive line because that group is playing as well as any

positional unit in the NFL this season. You know, we gave the Saints a lot of shit for trading a first round pick from Marcus Davenport in a world where you should not trade future first round picks. And that guy looks like a superstar. On a per snap basis, he's been one of the most impactful defensive, the past rushers in the NFL.

That guy is almost six foot six. And I worry about that with rushers. I feel like when you get to that length, your change of direction stuff is hard. It's hard to go speed to power. You don't have the flexibility to be able to be a dominant player. And he had a play last week against Tampa.

I put it in the starting 11 where he used a long arm that just knocked Amar Dotson on his ass instantly. And a lot of plays, you'll see a guy fall over or everything else and looks like he's getting owned and he's not. That was a real owning. And that's happening all the time,

whether it's him or Cameron Jordan, or even Shrey Hendrickson, who's a little banged up right now, but that group they have right now, you throw Sheldon Rankins into the mix, they've been able to help this team sustain without Drew Breeze. And I just feel like that's a group worth watching against the Jaguar's offensive line that has not had a good season so far. They lead the league and holding penalties.

I feel like you could see a lot of yellow and a lot of sacks this week for the Saints. All right. I'm going to get to my sneaky truth. I've got two. One of them is Carson Wentz is not getting any attention he deserves because his receiving corps is. is leading the NFL with the

drops. They have, I thought this interesting from PFF, they have 15 drops which obviously leads the NFL, but it's not centralized to any one player.

Even though the Nelson Al Gore narrative has gotten out there because someone, that was the big one. Someone roasted him to the high heavens, but no player on the team has more than two, according to PFF.

So I think that's... Matt Collins has a couple... Everyone's doing their part to make sure Carson Wentz is getting his stats he deserves. The only reason not making that my full sneaky truth is that even with the drops,

he's not, I think he's kind of average for accuracy this year. So it's not like he would up be there with Russell Wilson or Patrick Mahomes if he was completing those passes. But it is, Carson Wentz having a good year. Jackson gets back, they're going to be scary. They're going to be scary. That's what I'll say. This is still a pro-Eagles pro-Carson

Wentz podcast. Correct. I just want to rant for a second. I want to go back to the Lincoln Riley thing. The Redsians never going to be good. And I don't know why, the NFL lets this happen? I remember a couple years ago they're like a year ago

the NFL was like, uh-oh, we have to meet about this Chargers thing because they're not going to make any revenue. It's like the Redskins used to be the most popular team, one of the most popular teams in the entire country. Like they had the entire Eastern Seaboard. I remember I was in Redskins

Pan. I was in Carolina, the week of Redskins Panthers. And they were talking about how there used to be, there still is a huge Redskins fan base in North Carolina and South Carolina because they were basically the only team from Washington, D.C., gone down. And so you had like Tennessee, Georgia. I mean like, you know, from the 50s and 60s,

like there's still a huge fan base there. And because of that, they're almost like, you know, the Atlanta Braves or something where they were on TV all the time. And so the fact that they have now gone to just complete irrelevance, like my parents are from D.C. Like, you know, my extended family, they're from their residents, a lot of Reds against fans. A lot of Redskins are in my family. And they don't care at all about this team. And that's just not anecdotal. I mean, Grant Paulson put that tweet up, like a lot of people put the tweet about how many Patriots fans who were last week. It's just really unbelievable to me

how relevant that team has become and that the NFL is just going to let Dan Snyder employ Bruce Allen make another bad hire, probably throw money at a terrible terrible big name. I'm trying to think of some terrible big name that is out there that will throw money at.

But I think that we're still not talking about on Slow Newsday, but I think that they probably get unfairly maligned. for letting Lafleur and McVeigh out of the building? Like, what were they supposed to do? Like, promote Matt LaFleur? Yeah, that's silly. That's just more of a fun fact.

But what I'm saying is that, like, you know, the NBA stepped in when Sam Hinkie was smart as hell was running the Sixers. Like, this happens all the time when leagues are like, you've got to stop doing it. You know, the Major League Baseball made Sandy Alderson the Mets GM, right? Like, at some point, you're losing money by having an irrelevant Redskins team. Like, it's bad for league revenue to not having. former crown jewel relevant, okay? And like, at some point,

someone's got to fix this because it's pretty obvious to me that Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder are incapable of doing it. Bruce Allen has reached the top of the nepotism rankings in the NFL right now. I'm not sure there's any worse but the weird thing is,

is that like, I don't think his father is anything to do, I mean, obviously his father does because he's a Redskins legend and all that, but like, his ability to keep his job, that's like, the nepotism there is that he's like

Dan Snyder's son. He's older than Dan Snyder. Of course he is, yes. But I just, it's, it is very, very, very strange. Everything's gone. Bruce Allen has won 38% of his game since he was named team president. I mean, I just don't, I guess he's there so that Daniel Snyder doesn't have to take the heat. That's exactly why he's there.

But he's, he is there. That was the, the press conference. That was the part of that press conference. It was the most embarrassing is that, you know, Dan Snyder's more than willing to at 5 a.m. call Jay Gruden into the office and fire him. But he's not willing to sit there and take questions about it? But wait, but isn't the, instead of having a fall guy and a guy to take the bullets for all of your crappy decisions, isn't the better solution to just have someone else who's just not

going to make crappy decisions? You'd think so. But that's the thing about this franchise. They don't care about winning football games. But that is not what is most important to. That's so weird. I know. But that is not what is most important to them.

It's, if that is, I feel like something will change when people stop. stop coming and I think people are starting to not come anymore. I mean, they get rid of 10,000 seats in FedEx Field. Even if they don't, you know what? Even if they do stop coming, Snyder gets to cash his check from the revenue sharing and the TV deal and I don't think he gives a shit.

Right. Just point blank. The difference between the Knicks and the Redskins is that the Redskins play outside. They don't play in the most famous building in American sports. Hey, give FedEx Field time. It's still new.

I can't find Bruce Allen's age anywhere. It's not on his Wikipedia. I think he's at it scrubbed. I think he hired an internet fixer. We do not need to spend it or waste any time on the first of that game. The only thing I can find is that Bruce Allen bought a home on the Balbollah Peninsula for $7 million.

See, he's very good at maintaining his internet presence. Bruce Allen knows what he does and doesn't want out there, man. He's crushing it. Oh, living the life. God bless him. I'm now after the search, I'm going to, I'm a Bruce Allen stand. I have no idea what his age is. He's had his job for 10 years,

and he has a $7 million house in a place that's nice to live in. All right. Again, Patriots are going to win. No need to talk about that game. We'll be back on Sunday night, as always. Thank you guys for so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show

on the Ringer podcast network. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks, guys.