The Ringer NFL Show - Bengals HC Zac Taylor on Burrow’s Swagger, Drafting Ja’Marr Chase, Recruiting Peyton Manning, and Coaching With McVay | Flying Coach With Sean McVay and Peter Schrager

Episode Date: June 9, 2021

Sean and Peter are joined by Cincinnati Bengals head coach Zac Taylor to talk about his days coaching with Sean in L.A. and playing quarterback in practice, drafting Joe Burrow and Ja’Marr Chase in back-to-back drafts, trying but failing to recruit Peyton Manning in Miami, his worst play call as a Bengal, and stories about the McVay coaching tree (2:10). We finish the show with listener emails and voicemails (51:08). Follow 'Flying Coach' here on Spotify! Email Sean McVay and Peter Schrager your questions at [e-mail]. Or leave us a voicemail and it may be featured in our next episode! [phone]‬ Hosts: Sean McVay and Peter Schrager Guest: Zac Taylor Producer: Craig Horlbeck Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What If the Len Bias story hosted by Jordan Ritter-Con is the ringer's latest narrative podcast. Episodes 1 and 2 launch on June 9th, and you can find new episodes every Wednesday on the Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. Here's a quick trailer. You've heard his name, Lynn Bias, 1980s phenom, second pick in the NBA draft. And then, cocaine, tragedy, one of the most shocking deaths in sports history. 35 years later, Bias' legacy is still making an impact. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network,

this is What If, the Lynn Bias story. I'm Jordan Ritter-Con. Episode 4 of Flying Coach, I'm Peter Schrager. I am joined by the head coach of the Los Angeles Rams, my co-host, Sean McVeigh. Sean, how are we doing today? Doing great, Peter. You know, it's been a little bit of a stressful day,

but now that I get on with you, everything is good. Let's get it going. We got Zach Taylor, head coach of the Bengals. A lot of fireworks to come for this offense. We had Jamar Chase already a potent Joe Burrow leading the way.

T. Higgins in his second year. Tyler Boyd, don't sleep on him. I'm excited. Maybe not as much as you, Peter, but I'm excited. I think you sold it pretty well. Let's get to Zach Taylor, episode four, coach of the Bengals and former colleague of Sean McVeigh.

Zach, what's up, big man? Yeah, I appreciate you guys having me. Thrown to be here. Former Big 12 player of the year as well. Don't forget about that, man. I remember watching Zach thinking, who is this guy balling at Nebraska? Then he gets into coaching,

but don't sleep on that career a couple years ago. He was inducted into Nebraska's Hall of Fame. He is the man. I knew where my checkdowns were. That's for sure. He's being modest, but Sean, you're right. I was going through all the stuff, and Zach knows this, because I've shown his combine

footage every year on Good Morning Football since he's gotten the head coaching job, because I just love showing it. He was throwing the ball. He was at the combine as a player, but this is a guy who went nine and three, broke the passing yard record at Nebraska. Zach, don't be modest here. One of the greatest quarterback, especially throwing the ball in Nebraska history. What was your career as a college player? And then as you progressed out of that, what was it like those first few years out of college trying to find yourself as an NFL player? Then, of course, in the Canadian football league. Yeah, it was, you know, the harsh reality that I wasn't going to be an NFL quarterback. You know, I made it through, I didn't even make it through training camp. I got cut

the first day. And so quickly transitioned to what I knew best. And that was coached. I didn't know Econ. I didn't know accounting. I struggled in all those classes. So I called it Bill Callahan. I volunteered in Nebraska. And that was my first put in the door coaching once. So our first, so our working together our first year and, shoot, I almost said Washington, but with the L.A. Rams, we, uh, our, our first, year. We knew we needed to add some skill guys. And so not only was Zach a good coach, but he was the best coach I've been with in terms of helping facilitate a good workout with these receivers and tight ends because, man, he throws a nice ball where you can evaluate it.

Bill Walsh's number one thing he used to say about a quarterback, does he throw a catchable ball? We go on a workout circuit. We're flying all around, man. There was a couple nights where I didn't know if we were going to land, but we got me and Matt LaFleur and Zach Taylor and Zach Taylor. we're all stuffed into a small little airplane. We're going around working out Gerald Everett and Cooper Cup. We had Evan Ingram on the list. I don't think there was a dropped ball the whole weekend, thanks to the exquisite location that Zach was just putting on all these passes.

I kept watching, I'm thinking, I'm not evaluating these receivers, but I'm thinking, all right, Zach, hey, you better be careful. You're going to be a little too good. We might have to throw you in there in some preseason action. You'll be ready to go. I think somewhere in Atlanta, there's some hidden video at Pace Academy of Sean covering Gerald Everton on nine route. I probably had a back shoulder room.

I'm sure Sean was staying on top of the route. But there was a pretty good workout video from that workout back in the day. I think it's a great. This is great access because I never know what goes on. I just hear this team worked out this player. So let's go there. Gerald Everett's working out in Atlanta somewhere at Pace Academy. And it's literally Zach Taylor throwing them balls.

And Sean, you're playing DB. Is that how, I mean, is that really what we're talking about here? It's part of the insight that we got. And then we decided to have a couple adult beverages later on that night. We made a good weekend of it. But it was, uh, is that how it usually is though. Well,

that was one of the first times that we've done that. One of the only times since then, you know, I don't know if we had too much fun taking the plane all over the country, but we, we had some stops all over the joint and we ended up, ended up, uh,

you know, adding two really good players from those workouts in Gerald Everett and Cooper Cup. Cooper Cup was kind of, he wrapped up the, the, uh, the workout circuit for us. but Zach Taylor, his arm was, he got some good work, man.

The old, the old pea shooter got nice with Lucy, he was spraying it around. In three days, we went from Ole Miss to Atlanta to East Carolina to that high school field outside of Columbus to work at that tight end for a long. Andy Sheehan. Yeah. Adam Sheehan. I know. I know. It's a joke. So that was after a somewhat long night for some of the people on the plane.

We were in Columbus that night, right? Did we stop in Columbus, I feel like, the night before? And you guys made me throw it 8 in the morning on this high school field where you guys just talked with me for every team route that I couldn't get to him. So it was a long trip. Zach, take us through that first year of working with Sean McVeigh. Here's his head coach.

He's three years younger than you. You leave where? You were at University of Cincinnati before that? Yep. Why did you join L.A.? How did you get in touch with Sean? How did you guys know each other? And what was that transition like in that first year in L.A?

That's a funny story. You know, Sean and I have met a couple years ago at Combine. He was at Washington and I was at Miami. You know, just two young guys connected at Chulas, probably. Great sake. And so you're right. I was working for Tommy Tuberville and he resigned. So, you know, there's a couple days there where I'm not at work.

And Sean calls me out of the blue. I didn't even know I had Sean's number. I'm actually playing golf. And my phone search ringing. And it's Sean McVey's name. I didn't even know he had my name. number I had his number and says hey I can come be the assistant receiver coach and I said you know kind of caught me off guard LA I'm from open home I've been in Cincinnati like I'm not sure if I'm

I'm fit in LA and so I said Sean just give me like a day or two to think like yeah yeah no problem no problem and so probably an hour later I hadn't even gotten a lunch he calls like what's your decision man you come or not I'm like I'm going that was that was two days for me I was waiting I was going to jump on it oh you know what's funny though people Peter, he is a stud, but I had been watching Zach from afar, and, and Zach and I have talked about this, I remember, you know, because as young coaches, you know, you're fan of coaching and, you admire the way that guys handled themselves, and it's kind of a small fraternity of guys, and I had seen the way that he had handled himself so well with the transition when Dan

Campbell became the interim and he became the interim offensive coordinator with Miami. He did a hell of a job. I mean, they were, they were really doing some really good things offensively, but, more than anything, watching the way that he handled himself in the press conferences. And you're saying, you know, this guy, I've heard great things about him. We had some similar friends and some mutual connections. But I was so impressed with that. Then he goes to Cincinnati.

And, you know, when the opportunity came about where you're kind of looking to be able to, you know, work with some great coaches for a guy of his caliber to be available, I said, hey, whatever we can do to get him on the staff is the most important thing. And then you know that, you know, I didn't really. realize he'd break my heart and leave me two years later, but I did know that he had a, you know, he was a great coach that had already achieved a bunch of success just based on who he is and his ability to communicate and his knowledge of the game. But I was definitely impatient, wanting to, I was pressuring the hell out of them to commit to coming. And it all

worked out. You know, it should just know what Sean's energy. I hadn't interacted with him too much and, you know, he sold me on it on an initial call. And I just, I just had to have time to call my wife to tell her moving to L.A., started looking for houses, you know, and then the next step is, you know, you're not actually in L.A. You're a thousand oaks. So, but the best decision we made and had a great time with those two years were there. You get there that first year, that staff is the two of you, Matt LaFleur, who else is on that offensive staff? Because I think someday we'll look back on that and say, wow, that was a pretty amazing collection of talent in one room. Yeah, Shane Walden was on that staff as well, who's now the O.C.

for the Seahawks. Greg Olson. Yeah, and Greg Olson. I mean, when you look at it, there was a lot of great coaches on that staff, but you look at Greg Olson and Shane are both OCs, Matt and Zach are head coaches. I mean, that's pretty rare in it of itself. And then you had a bunch of other quality coaches as well, some guys that are still currently with us and some guys that are doing their thing elsewhere. And, Zach, when you interviewed for the Bengals, what was your approach to that interview walking into that room trying to sell them on, hey, I know I'm a quarterbacks coach.

And a couple years ago, I was at the University of Cincinnati, but I am ready to be the head coach of the Cincinnati Bengals. I think what's unique working for Sean is he prepares me from that. It's not just a head coach doing this thing, and he isolates everybody away from all the things that are on his table. He does a great job of educating everybody on the staff, why he's making decisions and letting everyone know the intent of all the decisions. And so it prepares you without even realizing it to be a head coach,

just the way we practiced, the way we met, Sean filling you in with all the details and why we're doing things big picture. You just walk into an interview and you know, you got a book. You're ready for the interview. You got the book that everyone does. You never even open it up. You know, you're just talking from the heart and talking from experience. And we were still in the middle of a Super Bowl run.

And so I'm just talking through our daily life and how we do it because I believed in it because Sean believes in it and our players believed in it. And so it's very easy to communicate to organizations when they ask you those questions. One of the things we love doing on this podcast, Zach, is we like going down storytime and getting stories from coaches, the things that you've learned, the things that you've experienced. And we have a mutual friend, Zach. I won't say who it is, but he told me, you've got to ask Zach about the time he was in his early 30s working for the Miami Dolphins. And it was his job to recruit Peyton Manning to be a Miami Dolphin.

Can you go into story time and take us through that process that you were the one rolling out the red carpet for, oh, I don't know, maybe the greatest quarterback of all time? Sure. Yeah, so we thought wrongly that Peyton was going to fly down to Miami and come work out for us in an indoor bubble, and we'd have a chance to meet with them and interview them. And that is not what happened. What really happened was one day at about 11 a.m., someone came in office and said, where he, we're on a plane at noon to Andy, and you need to put your cut up to sell Peyton Manning

on our system. This is, this has been early March. And I didn't even know what our system was. You know, Mike Sherman had just come from Texas A&M, Joe Philman had come from Green Day. Yeah, we'd had some conversations, but it wasn't, we didn't have the players practicing yet.

We weren't meeting with the players till late April. We were still in a free agent process very much. So everybody kind of, you know, coaches know how it works. You're kind of in the personnel section of the offseason and then you're going to get to the playbook. And so I'm putting together this cutoff of 200 plays. Brian Ten, at Texas, St. Edm, and Aaron Rogers at Green Bay.

And I, you know, I'm the quality control. I'm the quarterback coach, but I'm the only one on the place. The owner, the GM, Joe Philbin, Mike Sherman, and me. So I am in the quality control on the airplane. So I grab a, you know, a projector. I've got one of the things to carry to project on the projector. I've got the laptop. I've got the remotes.

I'm on this private airplane. I put it on. I'm still out of my own at this point. I get on the plane. I'm terrified. I'm typing out the script so that the other coaches know what the cutups are. So, people know what he's about to cut up. So I'm trying to be the best quality control in the moment that I can.

We pull into this airport hangar in Indianapolis. Peyton's in this back room waiting on us. I walk in the room, and sure enough, there's already a projector put up there. You've got all the materials. I'm hearing all this stuff on the, we don't need any of it. So anyway, Peyton was awesome. You know, we had a couple hour meeting, and he treated everyone with so much respect. and that's, I didn't know what I worked his camp before.

There's no way he knew who I was when I walked in the room, but, but he's such a good guy. He figured it out very quickly and talked to me about the camp and how he met me years ago. And I can't imagine he actually remembered that, but he was just a salty earth guy. And I was really impressed. And obviously, he didn't choose Miami Dolphins. He chose Denver, but it certainly was a nice member to have. Sean, we got Denver coming in with John Elway. They take him to the country club.

He's having lunch with John Elway. They're playing golf. Zach Taylor gave it a show. We always say shoot your shot. You almost did it. There's no regress there. It's pretty cool deal. Yeah, if it makes you feel any better, when I was in Washington,

I think Kyle and Coach Shanahan thought they had a chance to. It was, you know, everybody was in on that. I don't know whether whenever he had it figured out, but it worked out pretty well for the Broncos and everybody else was just left in the dust. Sure did. Here's what I would be interested to know, Zach. Take me through.

Here you guys are last year. got the number one overall pick. I know I was texting you jokingly saying, if you don't take this Burrow, I'm going to have to come to Cincinnati and smack you. But I'm watching their tape. When you and Brian and the rest of your coaches and Duke are kind of going through this,

you know, take me through that process and, you know, what that entailed and really how soon did you know? All right, Joe Burrow, this is the guy that we want. Can't wait to move forward with them, all the things that I know has you so excited about the future with him leading the way. Yeah.

So probably five days after the season ended. We knew we had the number one pick as soon as the last game ended. And so Brian and I really didn't wait. You know, we went through and watched all 13 games, whatever it was, probably within the first two weeks of January. And, you know, some of our scouts had already done that. Mike Paus and Duke Tobin, they'd already done that. So we watched all the quarterbacks.

We had Justin Herbert at the Senior Bowl. So we made sure and watched all of his games before we actually put our hands on him at the senior ball. He was really impressive. Watch a lot of those guys, two other. but there was just something about Burrow, you know, watching those games where you get through the Texas game, I think week two or week three, it's like, try with this guy, there's something to meet about this guy. And then when you got to know him, the first time we ever met him was there's 18 minutes to come, you know, I talked to him once in the phone. We got to see him for 18

minutes, you know, at first it was me and Mike Brown and Duke Tobin, met with him for a couple minutes, and then we had the interview process, but just really impressive, probably sometime in March, you know, we had a pretty good idea. that this is our guy. So got a chance to utilize all those interviews leading up to the draft to make sure it was the perfect fit, it sure was. How hard was it to keep that secret? And was there an incentive to keep this secret?

I always am confused when teams have the first pick and they're like, we're not telling it. What was the point of keeping that secret? And I know it got out eventually that you guys are probably going to take them. But you never came out and were vocally like, Joe Burroughs the man. Yeah, there's no reason to publicly. You know, Joe knew, we knew. sometimes the league likes to keep that stuff quiet. So you just don't make a big deal about it.

That's easy for us to do. And you just don't have to question as they come at you. But Joe knew that he was going to be the number one pick and we felt good about it. And how cool is it to see him finally on the field? I know the injury was a short in season for him. But gosh, he was so special in those few weeks. We had him on the field. I think of that week two game against Cleveland.

Everyone's hyped about the Browns. Here comes Joe Burrow throwing 61 pass attempts, throwing no interceptions, throwing three times. touchdowns. I mean, gosh, Zach, it was a small sample size, but there is a lot to like about what we saw from Joe Burrow, the NFL quarterback last year. It was. And we really felt like we were hitting rhythm there, you know, week six, seven, eight, nine, ten before the injury. You know, even in the first half he played against Washington, we only had, you know, I think nine points when he got hurt. But we felt like we were in a great rhythm and moving it up and down the field and just

couldn't put it in the end zone. So that was disappointing because we really felt like, you know, we had a good chance there the second half of the season. Unfortunately, what happened happened and now he's making a really good recovery and he's going to see him back on the field. He's got this swagger to him. You see him smoking a cigar, right?

Like, what's the line between you encourage that as a coach, like be that guy and then, hey, scale it back. Do you even have the ability as a coach and Sean, I ask you, where you could tell a guy, hey, tone it down a little bit?

The word I use is edge. He's got the edge about him. And I can't. describe it. It's on a different level. There's nothing you got to say to this guy. When he's in a building, he's ready to work, and that's what he wants to do. And he's going to hold everybody accountable, myself, the other players, the other coaches. He holds himself the most accountable, you know, and so that's what you want from the quarterback. He's the he's the undisputed leader of that offense. We got some great guys, great leaders, but there's no question

that all eyes run this guy. You know, so it's really fun to have that at quarterback as, as we all know, man. It's driven by the quarterback and we got a great one. Zach, tell him the story and you can help me remember. I remember talking to you early on when you first started getting some exposure to him in camp. And there was something about a red zone period that he didn't like himself or wanted to do it over again. But I think that kind of illustrates exactly what you're talking about, the standards, just the ownership, the edge that this guy has. I thought that was a great story you had told me last year. Yeah. So the first day we installed the red zone, you know, in training camp, you know, you installed.

it's a lot of concepts guys haven't done before, especially coming from college. And so you get out there and it's a lackluster period against the defense just because it's the first time we're really doing it against the group. And he was just disappointed by himself, the offense in general, and ask us, hey, we need to do this again tomorrow or the next day, whenever it was. And so, you know, that's what he wants to do it. We're going to do it to make sure that he feels comfortable in the red zone.

And we did it. It was a much better day. And, you know, it's just he's got to win. That's his mindset. I've got to win. I didn't win that period. So we got to do it again. because I got to go win, you know, and that's how he wants to finish the drill.

And he's really impressive in that way. What says so much, it's one thing, you know, because everybody talks and throws this word leadership out there. And you get a lot of guys that do what they think they're supposed to do. And then you get certain guys that it is just part of their nature that, man, I'm a competitor. This is who I am. I don't need anybody to tell me, hey, the right thing to do as a quarterback is you should want to reset the drill.

you should want to do it. This is how Joe Burroughs innately wired. And those guys that are really special are wired that way. You know, you hear about these elite competitors. And I thought Zach just said it best. They have an edge to them. There's an edge that all these great players have. They want to be coached hard,

but nobody demands more of them than they do of themselves. And that's how when I hear Zach talk about the stories, you know, you talk about these guys that are the igniters. They raise the level of everyone around them. And when I heard Zach talk about it, the excitement that I hear him talk about Joe that comes out in his voice, you can't fake it. And this is what that guy's done.

You watch their games. It is powerful to see the belief that this guy instills in his teammates around him. And that's what the best ones do. I thought that was reflected. And then I think what says as much as anything that you've heard me talk about, Peter, when I can't remember if it was last week or a couple weeks ago, then to say, okay, we know we got a guy that can lead us. But then to find a way to get a way to get.

some tough, harder and wins towards the latter part of the year against Houston on Monday night against the Steelers. That to me is so instrumental in building a foundation. And then, oh, by the way, let's add Joe Burrow back into the mix. We get Jamar Chase. There's some exciting stuff going on with the Cincinnati Bengals and Zach Taylor, baby. I know you thought we should have dropped the line, Sean. But we went with three Cesar.

We went together to the guy that scores touchdowns. I'm just kidding. You text me two years in a runoff on your dog, top on the picture. Hey, I know I didn't need, I know you didn't need my help on those, but you'll thank me later. Jermar Chase was the pick,

and obviously publicly it was Sewell, Chase, Waddle, what do you guys see from Chase? And besides him just being a wide receiver and you love in that dynamic position, what do you see in Chase that made him worthy of the number five overall pick? Playmakers, the first word he used. And it's not just outside his next receiver down the field, making 50-50 contested plays.

This guy's got a great understanding of the nuances of route running. He's patient. He's got really strong hands. His lower body is similar to a running back. I mean, he's 6 feet, 207. And so similar to Cooper Cup in the sense that he's got unbelievable body control. He's running full speed. But when he judges where the ball's at, he can shut his body down and have that great control

now to run after the catch and maximize it. Oh, yeah. And it's hard to bring him down on first contact, you know, just like Cooper. or, you know, he usually makes that first guy miss or pulls through the tackle. And then he's got the top end speed to finish it off. I mean, there's countless lucky routes, Sean, and all these routes where he makes that first guy miss, and then he takes it 70 for touchdown.

So that's just the game-breaking element that's really exciting to add on top of Tyler Boyd on top of T. Higgins, who's going to have a great second year, and we've got a lot of other guys behind him. So I'm just really excited about that group as a whole. Can I ask if Mr. Burrow comes and knocks on the door or gives you a text at any point and says, hey, I did throw 20 touchdown passes to this cat.

Does that even come into play that they had this connection and that, hey, maybe the quarterback would be a little happy to have his guy? That's not the deciding factor, but that's an element that you've got to take into account. You know, it's, hey, we know what the chemistry is going to be. There's not that feeling out process right now where if you take a receiver that played for X school and he and Joe are feeling each other out, hey, I like this route run this way. They walked in with two years of connection. And they hit the ground running.

Joe knows how to speak through him. He knows how to communicate with him. Jamar's the same way. so you've seen that connection just for Lotea number one you already see it right out of game but that wasn't Joe's personality come in and say hey you got to take this guy

it was there was me asking the questions hey do you want to play with him yeah I do what would you expect to be out of 10 it'd be a 10 okay well I don't really need to add too many other questions here so it was good

he is you know what's amazing how much did it matter if at all that you know you're watching the most recent tape of Jamar and it's Joe throwing him the ball where he's winning the Balitnikoff Award. You know, like the crazy thing is, is here you are, you're watching a guy that,

you know, Herbert has a great year, Joe Burrow has a great year, and Justin Jefferson, oh, by the way, was the, you know, a receiver on that LSU team. And the guy that ends up winning the Balitnikov that year is Jamar Chase. I mean, watching that team was unbelievable. And you can't help but say, like, man,

I can't believe that this is the most recent film that I'm watching. Did that affect you guys at all? or not so much? Yeah, it's hard not to. Just because you can see a lot of elements of our offense, right? I mean, it's the saints going down to LSU and all the things that Sean and I have grown up running. So it's very easy to visualize because it is an NFL offense.

And Joe Brady and those guys did a great job. And I'm with it. You know, just looking at one route, seeing Joe Burrow throwing the goal over the top, back shoulder, a flatter throw on a cover two type hole shot. So you already know that they have the chemistry. and just take that one route, for example. There's plenty more.

So it was easy to see how he fit in our offense. It was easy to see how he fit with our quarterback. Those weren't guesses that you had to make. It was very easy to see on the film. So again, that was just part of the process. We had to do all the background stuff, but that stuff made it pretty easy to make that decision. Zach, can we go back to your time coming out of the draft?

We mentioned you were cut the first day, as you said, of training camp by the bucket of? I didn't even make. I was packing my bag. I just taking engagement pictures with my wife and mom. And I was zipping my bag up to get on the flight through Tampa. And somebody gave me a call and the scouts gave me a call. And don't be to ship my playbook back.

So that was back in the day when the 90 man rostered draftics didn't count until they were signed towards the 90 man. So as soon as you sign them, you had to cut guys. There's the previous CBA. It's not that way anymore. But back, I didn't know that. You know, my agent can do that one. So, you know, I'm seeing all my other undrafted guys get caught. My buddy's getting cut the days before.

I'm thinking, well, I'm good. And then sure enough, they got, they must have signed Gaines Adams or somebody, and I got the cut there. All right. So that was in Tampa. But then you go to Winnipeg. And this is fascinating to me.

Can you tell the listeners and Sean, who I don't know if he knows the full, what was the depth chart of the 2007 Winnipeg Blue Bombers quarterback's quarterbacks room? So I showed up in September, and that was halfway through the season. And I joined the best team in the league. The Winnipeg, we were number one in the league.

So I just show up. I don't know anything. I knew that I wasn't going to cut it. When I got off the plane at midnight, I walked on the field, and the GM handed me a ball, and the ball was battered. And I got small hands. And as soon as I picked that ball up, I thought in my head, that's ain't going to work. So I was a fourth string quarterback.

Our starter was Kevin Glenn. He was the league MVP that year. He went to Illinois State. A phenomenal. He played up there for 20 years. He was the starter. He had an MVP year that year. Let us the Great Cup.

Our backup was Ryan Dinwiddie record holder at Boise State. Boise, yeah. Before Kellyn Moore, before he was kind of the first one. It was him. The third-st-st-strand quarterback with Cliff Kingsbury. And I was the fourth-string quarterback. I was the practice club quarterback. And our office was no bigger than the one I'm in right now.

It was where we met. And our coach would sit behind the starting quarterback and they'd watch the film. And then there was a love seat over on the side wall. And there was Ben-Witty, me and Cliff just packed into this love seat. It was our meeting every single day. And so that was my experience to the CFL football. It was so cold.

We had no indoor. It was so cold that the defense would go out there and practice and the offense would like stay in like the dugout type of activity. And then when it was time to flip 30 minutes later, the other group would go inside because I'd be thrown out there in ski gloves. I mean, it was freezing, shot putting in. So Kingsbury's come a long way from sharing a love seat with you to freaking showing everybody up,

including you on Draft Night with his. draft set up. You don't even, you didn't even have a desk in yours. Zach, we got to talk about it. So you had the first pick overall. It's the first home draft. Cliff is in his whatever you want to call that thing. Zach, we got one ball guy and one guy worried about getting dates. Seriously, Zach, what did you, I mean, you had no, you didn't even have a desk in the office. It was just a blank white room. What was going on? I think Cliff and I lead drastically different lives. as you can see by by you know five-year-old girl's headlong here so so I got this great through this program this crew comes in and build this was a garage

man right now and that's what you saw on TV they come in in seven days they build me an office because we realize this COVID King's serious yeah I'm going to work from home I can't sit on my couch hunched over for the next four months so these these guys do a great job they build this office for me and I ordered this this furniture that you see two weeks before draft and I cannot get this company to get it to me and so it's the day of they're telling me it's going to be there it doesn't show up so so god bless the people around me are helping me they're putting a desk in there just trying to do something it didn't even cross my mind how big of a deal was going to be to be to be honest with you but it sure enough was and you know I got all the that

that I was a Hertz you know manager at the counter and trying to get people their keys and the room keys and things like that so people had some fun with it and it's all good I was hoping for redemption year because as you can see it's not so bad. I haven't really good. It's look good, man. You have up. Now you got the swag going again. I was, you know, it was almost like I didn't want co-bed. I just needed to be of close contact. So you're knocked out of the office and I've got to do it from home and show up on TV again and get a chance to show up on their digs. So, Zach, you know, I know we've talked about, you've listened to this show. Unfortunately, I could probably fill this segment in the rest of

all of the episodes, as I've alluded to on some regrettable play. calls to say the least, whether it's your tenure with the Miami Dolphins or with the Bengals right now. Give me a moment that you say, you know, what the hell was I thinking? And where were you guys as my assistant coaches to help me say, don't do that dumb. You know what? So one of my first game, preseason game one, there's the Kansas City chiefs at Kansas City. And it's the end of the first half. And we got the ball in the 40 going in.

And there was probably 10, 11, 12 seconds left. We had a timeout. And it was 3rd and 10. Okay, so we're on the 40. We just need to get the field goal reach. We just need five. We just be able to get five yards, get a field goal tipped up. And Sean, we get a two by two in our call pressure 10.

Okay. So there's a chance that quarterback's going to hold the ball a little bit here. Okay. So we take a set, a seven-yard loss. Now we're on the 47. I got a call time now. I'm thinking, you know, I should have called triple slant. something to catch the ball moving so we can get down down and down time out kick the field go get to half time so so bad play call we take a sack so now there's that gray area of four seconds left fourth down you don't want to put it uh so we're gonna throw a hell mary and we get hit as we throw the hell mary and they take it off and they are running for a touchdown at the end of half and so i'm sitting here watching on the sidelines like you've got to be kidding we're going to throw a pick six on a hail mary and my and my

first ever game as a headger, a grand inch of preseason game. And thank God, Trayvian Williams, a rookie running back, makes the tackle like the five-year-old leg. But it gets hurt. He hurts his ankle. He's up for the rest of the preseason. So here I am. Stupid play call on third down.

I should just call something, get the ball in a hand, quit game, get the field goal. The next play, fourth down, we throw a pick on a Hailberry, and they almost take his house. And, Sean, I mean, I feel like the biggest idiot on the planet. That was one. I take notes after every game I call every situation, and that's when I've reflected back on many, many times.

Don't ever do that at the time. Hey, give them, I'll tell you, this is not funny, but we can maybe look back on this and laugh. So after Marcus Peters, who knows a lot of our terminology, you know, and obviously, you know, you have some concept carryover. Give them, give them that story about where Marcus Peters goes the other way when we're making an audible check, and we'll change the Omaha route in both of our offenses for when we see our guy next year.

But go ahead and give him. Yeah. So it is Ryan Finley's first game, okay? And we're playing Baltimore. And that's not the easiest first game for Richard quarterback. And so we're hanging in there, though. I think it was 21 to 10. And we're driving.

We're in the red zone area. You know, it's a normal down situation, first and second down. And they're going to zero blitzes, if I remember correct. He's getting to a max protection. And, you know, he was trying to communicate with the receiver. And it said just the signal, he says Omaha. Well, Marcus knows Omaha. Marcus knows what that means.

And so unfortunately, and it was, you know, one of those regrettable moments for me because you're seeing it unfold. And sometimes you're seeing it unfold and you're like, time out. I'm out. But it just happens in an instant. And Marcus takes it back the other way. And, you know, and so it's just, it's those moments.

you got a hard from and that's just part of educating some of these young players sometimes. And there's veteran players on the edge of the ball that have heard a lot of terminology and a lot of communication. They study it. They studied the game tapes. And I know Sean's the best in the business that going back through the TV copies, you know, and making sure that he self-count himself and knowing what code words show up. And we do the same thing. And that was just one of those situations that didn't go so well first. That's actually really fascinating. Sean, what does that mean? So you would watch the broadcast copy. You'll put the volume up to hear if any audibles are picked up. We have coaches, I mean, because you're mandated where you got a mic,

either your center or one of your guards. So nowadays, and especially last year, they pick up everything. So that's a big thing that defensive coaches do around the league. So you better be in tune with what's being said and some of those things. But I can remember, you know, I talked to Zach after because it was around the time that Marcus had just recently gotten to Baltimore. And, you know, I mean, Matt talked about his experiences when he was with the Titans going against the Ravens. I mean, I could go on and on about, you know, when Wink Martindale just lit me. And he got some calls that I have a lot of regrets on. But long story short, Finley had gotten to a good decision.

The problem was is that Marcus could hear this. And he had been in our system. So he knew, I mean, his eyes light up like some saucers. Like, all right, I'm about to get a quick speed out. You got to be kidding me. And so I just felt bad for my guy because that easily could have happened to us. and smart players, they do a good job. And it's just like Zach said, it's a learning op.

And all of us, there's moments every single week as a play caller, not one, but multiple, usually where you're saying, man, I wish I'd put our guys in a better spot. And fortunately, when you've got guys like the burrows of the world or, you know, like the Staffords, they can kind of bail you out and make you right if you're wrong. But you want to try to be more right than you are wrong in terms of getting some of the looks and helping facilitate good execution from your player's perspective. Zach, can you give us your best

Sean McVeigh story? Is there a fun one that maybe we could tell? That's not, that's, it's, because, I mean, here it is. The listeners, you could hear it here. Yeah, I got plenty. We could do it all night. But, you know, the guy just, he's got energy like this at all time.

You know, he comes to your office at midnight on a Tuesday night, a game plan night. He's drawn up ideas on my board, and he's selling you on it in that moment. You know, I'm tired. I'm about to fall asleep. And this guy's just, and that's why they've had so much success as a team and as an offense

because his energy is endless. But one thing Sean does not like is when you talk in the install meetings. And so you're up there installing. There is nothing worse. And when someone is just having a little side conversation, it might just be a coach and a player, but that's just one of the things Sean does not like. And someone that didn't seem to get that,

was Matt before. And so I just get there. You know, I don't know Sean. They're brothers. They go way back. And, you know,

so they could get after each other. And it's, it's all good. But I don't fall under that category yet. I just got to know Sean. So I was sitting next to Matt thinking, this is harmless. And Sean's up there installing.

And probably the first install meeting, Matt starts drawing something on my paper and saying something to me. And I can just see Sean just shooting his daggers. And so I'm kind of just. moving back a little bit. I'm trying to talk to Matt. Matt keeps talking. And so Sean just, he blasts us right there in front of everybody.

And so I think, okay, all right, I learned my lesson, you know. So the next day, you know, I scooted a little further down from Matt. And Matt, he comes back for more. It's almost like he liked it. So he goes, he's trying to talk to me again. So then eventually, I just had to move a real back and just totally distance to myself from Matt, who's the greatest, most genuine person on the planet. But for whatever reason, he really liked to talk in those install meetings.

And I learned real fast, Sean is not like that. So I distanced myself quickly and I found a spot in the row behind me. And I don't know if Sean remembers that too wrong. Oh, I, I, you know what? I remember Matt making me want to, yes, Matt would, I feel like Matt would intentionally piss me off, though. Do you remember on the headsets? You know, like, he's ready to change the game plan after we go like three and out.

I'm like, Matt, you've seen three plays. Will you just relax and let us get through a series before you start? He it's it's like the wedding crashes It's the it's the second it's the beginning of the first quarter And you want to throw a Hail Mary just relax big guy So that's the best is is me and Matt would be in the press box And Matt is is like this guy watches more he knows more information about the opponent you're playing It is unbelievable this guy just consumes take it doesn't just consume it he retains it and can use it as advantage

And and he'd be up in the press box and we'd be three plays in the game and he can say something to me off off the mic and say, should I tell Sean that? I'm like, ah, I just got to see Sean right now. Like, maybe don't say that. I think I got to say it. I think I got to say it. He click on and say it and Sean would have reaction. Sean pushed right now and he click off and like, yeah, I probably should have said that.

I'm like, yeah, I probably should have said that. But he just, you know, that's what's great. Is he had thick skin and, you know, you need that. Like, Sean needs that. You need someone to tell you something and you don't have to agree with it. Sometimes you might agree with it three minutes later because you just don't want to hear it in the moment. But you sit there and you dwell on a second. You're like, you know what?

They're probably right. And that's what you need on that staff. And that's why I always thought Matt was such a great coach is because he was willing to sometimes take the lashing. And he had great information. And I learned a lot from Sean. I learned a lot from Matt. Yeah. I do think he would like to piss me off.

He used to tell me, I'm like, Matt, are you like trying to get me? me worked up. He said, actually, I am. I think you're better when you're pissed off. And if I have to be the guy that you get upset with, then so be it for the greater good of the team, Sean. Just because they were so close. You know, it's obviously the relationship went back so far. And so it was more, it was really just two brothers. I got a brother, you know, I got two sons. And so you see that relationship. And that's exactly what Matt and Sean, do you have a good Zach Taylor story you can share? Oh, no, I think that, you know, I think that, you know, know, just the experiences that we shared together, I think just the way that he handled himself

over the couple years. Here's what I would say, you know, I did enjoy the times that we shared right off the jump where, hey, I jokingly say it, but I meant it in all sincerity, like he was a great coach. We miss him for the armed talent that he had in terms of giving guys a good look. You ask Cooper Cup. And we've had some high standards in that receiver group that, you know, where coaches are there and giving them good looks. but, you know, I think to me, what says as much about Zach that, that has always resonated was the consistency that he's operated with. And that goes from our two years together to now two years later going into his third year as the Bengals head coach. And that was what stood out to me before we even really knew each other was just, you know, there's something about this guy that he's a leader of men.

You could see that when he played it in Nebraska. Then you could just see the class and the epitome of great communicator. listen to the way the players that have been around him and the coaches that he's worked with speak on him. You watch the way that he is as a father as a husband. But I think what says as much to me about Zach Taylor as anything is watching the way that this is a resilient group. You know, they've gone through some adversity in Cincinnati. But like I said a couple weeks ago, I think the guys really separate themselves when, how do we fight our way out of a hole and watching the way they played on Monday night,

watching them, you know, where is Brandon Allen led you guys to a big win against the Texans, where you're going up and down the field, those are the things to me that say, this guy's got all the right stuff in him because that's when it's the most difficult as a leader. When it's good, everything's good and it's easy and, you know, it's always easy to lead from the front. But how do you stay steady? How do you stay consistent? And this guy has done nothing but stay steady and consistent. And that, to me, has earned as much respect for the amount of things.

that I admire and revere about him as anything. And I just, you know, I can't wait to watch him do his thing and enjoy doing it because he's a hell of a coach. He's a hell of a guy. And it's good to be able to share a little bit of time with him today for sure. All right, Zach, here's our last question. It's something we've asked everybody who's been on the Flying Coach podcast. And I think we've gotten a lot of great responses.

If there's a young coach, high school, Pop Warner, college, who wants to reach out to you right now and say, hey, Zach Taylor, NFL head coach, what would be your one piece of advice for me as I get started in this career and I try to aspire to someday be one of the 32? What would be your message to them? Well, I think as when I was young coach, I always worried about what my next move is. You know, I need to be a quarterback coach. I need to be a core. I can't wait to do that.

I'm ready. I'm ready. And really what I learned was you've got to be where your feet are, which is easy to say, a ton of people say. But my most enjoyable coaching job, up to this point of being a head coach was working for Sean. I was in no hurry to go be a coordinator somewhere, go be a head coach. I just, I love being there in the building trying to do a great job for Sean and Jared and the guys there.

And that's, you know, you feel like you do your best work because you're not, you know, eyes elsewhere trying to get some other job. You're just, you're happy where you are. You're with the good people and you're really working hard. And one thing I look for from people is, are you a problem solving? or are you a problem maker? And someone, I heard that a long time ago. And so I've just always tried to solve problems.

There's plenty of ones to make. There's ones that come across your table all the time. You can complain about them or you can just try to go solve them. And that's what's fun about the job. And that's the advice I give, you know, a young coach is be proactive. If you work for a quarterback coach, you work for a coordinator, you work for a head coach, be proactive. Try to guess what may be coming down the pie.

at you at some point and just be proactive about it. So when they ask you, yeah, coach, I've already done that. I'll get it too as quick as possible. Or you don't even tell you very good. You just give it to them and they're impressed. But now just just do your best, be the best quality control you can be, be the best coordinator you can be, be the best tight-in coach you can be, whatever it is. Enjoy that and great opportunities will come your way as long as you're doing that. But again, just just be a problem solver. You know, don't be the guy that throws a ton of problems at everybody and less than figure it out. just be creative and figure out ways to solve it.

If you said, if you had to say, I love that. Are you a problem solver or a problem maker? That's so good. I'm definitely stealing that one from you, Zach. If you had to say two things or, you know, it might not be just two, but when you're looking and you're filling out your staff, these are the things that are non-negotiable, you know, for all these other coaches out here, these are the things that you better check the box in order to be in alignment with what we're looking for as Cincinnati Bengals coaches.

And I know we share the same values, you know, with Rams. What would you say those things are? Well, number one, honestly, because the players see right through it. If you're, and it really goes hand in hand with being a hard worker, you don't have to be the smartest person. Not every coach, I'm not the smartest guy. Not every coach is they may have all the answers. But if you will work to find the answers and you're honest with your players,

then you're going to gain the respect and they'll do a lot of things for you. And so, you know, obviously you've got to be knowledgeable your position and you've got to be a master in your position so that you can coach those guys and get the most out of them. But there's going to be times to ask you a question about a game plan or about a opponent and you don't have the answer for them. And if you try to BS your way through it, you're going to lose their respect instantly. If you're honest with them and say, you know what, I'm going to go out of Sean.

I'm going to go out of Zach. And I'll get you that answer ASAP. And that happens occasionally, then you're going to gain the respect. And, you know, when you're there working, you gain the respect of all your other coaches, you know, because you're working at your task and you're not just there, just pull on a time chart and trying to get your work done and get out there. It's you're doing quality work for the time you're there. You're honest, you're a good person to be around.

And those are, but we feel like we've got a staff full of those guys, and I'm excited to be around him over some day. You know what's amazing, guys? You say these values, you know, what you said, be a problem solver, not a problem maker. You say, work hard, but don't always be worried about being the smartest guy. That applies to corporate culture. That applies to all team sports. I think those are just good core values to have as someone in the world today.

As far as being a person trying to work towards a goal with a team, I see it from both of you guys that you're great leaders, but you also respect the work that is put in, and not just for show, not just, hey, look what I did. Can you guys notice when a young coach is doing things maybe without being so self-promotional? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. We got a guy Brad Craigdorf is a young coach for us. And I can ask him, hey, put together a cut up of all the RPO's from the AFC West.

I'm just making it up. And I can sense he's already done something like that. he's already proactive enough to think this may be something that helps us on the road. What may Zach may be asking us for? And so he's already got stuff like that. And so he's preparing himself with the scheme that's going around the league and what's the next step we need to take? And you need that from all your coaches. But, you know, that's the example of the guy.

You know, I usually ask him something and I got a pretty good sense. He's already done something along those last. Yeah, those are the things. And really that's what Zach did. That's what I'd like to think. Hopefully I've done before. and a lot of the great coaches I've been around, they have a role in responsibilities.

And you've got these kind of these general guidelines for what you're looking for, but they redefine the role. They make it even better than what you're looking for. That to me is what the best ones do. It's exactly what Zach did. We've got a lot of guys that I could say the same thing about on our staff. And I think the best,

they kind of redefine their roles and they make it even better than what was originally asked of them. And maybe that's what you're doing on Good Morning Football or Flying Coach, huh, Peter? just trying to do my job guys can I ask one question for you Peter last week

and you're talking about you know you put this segment behind you and go on to the next one how often do you review because you've done a lot of them how often do you review an episode you did

and again just just kind of coached me up along the lines of something that you looked at a lot from a hundred episodes ago that you did that you make improvement

but what is your studying process go through with that I think in the first year the show I would get caught saying things and I would check myself the next day or right after I said it and be like, do I actually feel that way? Do I actually really feel that way? And it's like you catch yourself and you say, all right, as long as I'm authentic and I believe it and it's accurate in what I know,

that's fine. But I'll never forget. I came in. It was the Monday after the Giants, they might have beaten Sean's Washington team and they were going to the playoffs. They were playing the Packers the next week in like seven days. And Odell and Victor Cruz and the receivers. I don't know who else was in that group. They all went down and got on a boat in Miami and like partied with, I want to say, Tray Songs might have been the guy they were partying with. And it was a whole thing in New York. And for whatever reason, I came on Monday morning, Tuesday morning, and I was outraged. What are they doing? Don't they realize they have a game? And there's time for that in the offseason. Whether that's true or not, that's not me.

I don't feel that way. In my heart of hearts, I did not feel that way. So I caught myself and I'm like, all right, I got caught up in the story and I knew that WFAA and the local New York radio station would be going that route. And I, like, played like New York crotchety sports fan. And I'm like, that's not authentic. So I think the whole thing with me and I appreciate you even asking the question is authenticity. And do I really feel that way? And if I do feel that way, am I willing to back that up if I was to be asked again tomorrow

in the day after that and the day after that? So did the giant's boat cruise or boat trip really upset me? No, no. I mean, they ended up getting the doors blown off them the next week, but one thing's irrelevant to the other. I was doing theater. I was fake upset, and I think anyone who knows me knew that wasn't my true self. And I learned.

That was just something I did, and you try to move on and try to be authentic to yourself. Yes, that is not in alignment with who you are. We all know that. Made for some entertaining TV, Sean. All right, Zach. You're awesome, Zach. I appreciate you doing this with us, brother. You bet, guys.

That was a blast. Zach, you're so good, dude. We appreciate you coming on. And each week, we're seeing a different side of the coaches, and we appreciate you letting us inside and giving us access to the guy you are beyond what we see on the sidelines and necessarily in the press media availability.

I appreciate you. You guys were awesome. and I'm just glad to do it, glad to be a part of it. Zach was great. Sean, I don't think the listeners at home I've ever heard Zach Taylor like that. To be honest, I didn't know he had that big of personality. He was really good. Yeah, that's who he is.

That's what I think has been good about this, Peter, is these last few weeks have really, you've gotten to see a different side of some of these coaches that have a lot of, a lot more personality than sometimes we feel like you can really show in some of these rigid settings where, you know, you're answering questions and it might be stressed out

after, you know, things don't go well. I know I can certainly attest to that, but it's been great having these guys on, appreciative of their time without a doubt, knowing how busy they are. Zach was awesome. He was gracious of his time, and he adds to a great list that we've had,

and we've already had now, Robert Sala, Matt LaFleur, Cliff Kingsbury. Hopefully we'll get on some more in the next couple of weeks. But before we wrap this episode, we've got to get to the portion of the podcast that everyone is talking about. There's so much buzz in the air.

it's called the the reader emails and the voicemail and it's trending and it's trademarked and it's got a snazzy name but the reader emails reader or listener I don't even know Craig Horlebeck you're our producer what do we call on this thing well I think I'm how do you guys feel about me

just printing some shirts out the emails and the voicemails flying coats those will sell quick I bet they're hot they're trending why do I sense sarcasm in your voice Craig well Peter one of these one of these weeks, you're going to come with something better than the emails and the voicemails.

I don't know what it is, but surprise me next week. Otherwise, it'll be my final flying coach podcast as a co-host with you. We'll be changing it. Promptly. We'll be not. We'll be changing it soon. Craig, why don't we get to it though? Let's do it. What's our first email this week? All right. This is from Brian in Woodstock, Georgia. He says, I consider the Washington football team coaching staff from 2010 to 2013 to be this generation's Cleveland Brown. coaching staff from 91 to 94 under Belichick in terms of being a cradle of future great coaches. Can you tell me one thing you learned from coach Mike Shanahan about creating a winning culture in developing young leaders?

Yeah, I think the main thing that stands out about Coach Sananan is the consistency. It's easy to say, hard to do. Everybody's got these buzzwords, but the way that we define consistency is that's the truest measurement of performance. And when you're a Hall of Fame caliber coach like him, he consistently expected the same thing. He was consistent in his standards that he upheld himself as a leader as a head coach. He demanded that of the players. And I thought he really demanded that as, uh, you know, of his coaches. You know, he's one of those guys that you wanted to work hard because you always

knew he was on every little detail that was going on. There was no stone that was unturned. There was a healthy competitiveness that our staff had amongst one another in that environment that he really created, but the consistency and the standards that he upheld day in and day out is something that I'll forever take with me. And then really, I think, a commitment to a philosophy. You know, those things really stood out. You know, he's, he's one of the original coaches that did such a phenomenal job of marrying the run in the past. And that's really something that you see for a lot of these upper echelon offenses in any, you know, really in any level of football. And coach Shanahan epitomize that as much as anybody.

Sean, can I ask you a question about Shanahan? So you're there. Yep. And for a while, you know, Kyle is in between you, his son. Did you have direct access to Mike also? Like, what was the dynamic there with all those young coaches because his son is one of them? Yeah, I did. And, you know, coach was the true CEO head coach.

He knew everything that was going on from offense to defense to the kicking game. You could see, you know, this was, you know, it was his offensive system. But Kyle had really taken it and done a phenomenal job with he and coach Kubiak at Houston and really kind of had made it his own. But there was always a great collaboration. I thought it was really cool watching, you know, two great coaches and Kyle and Mike really have a great father-son relationship, but also you talk about two high-calibur football coaches

and, you know, the ways that they operated day in and day out. And so there was a lot of interaction. You know, I was in essence, Kyle's quality control coach. And so I was drawing the past pictures. I was doing all the breakdowns. And so it was, you know, you operate at a standard that, you know, you really realize that, hey, there's a reason why Kyle's been as successful as he has. And, you know, he was great about being demanding.

And I think that's what made a lot of these guys that have worked with him and for him a lot better coach. Myself, Matt Lafleur, you got guys like Mike Lafleur, you know, Robert's solid now. And even, you know, Mike McDaniels doing a great job as the OC for the Niners. Okay, last question here before we get to the voicemail. This is from Andrew in Wisconsin. He asks, Coach McVeigh mentioned watching college football to find innovative plays in a previous episode. I was wondering if he could tell us

which college coaches he regularly watches and finds to be the most innovative. Perhaps the next Cliff Kingsbury, but probably not as handsome. Nice. Lincoln Riley is a guy that I've loved watching what they've done since he's been there. And then I kind of mentioned it last week,

but whether it was a couple years back when you watched Joe Burrow and what Joe Brady did a phenomenal job with all their explosives and success and efficiency offensively, and then you look at last year, arguably, one of the best college football offenses in the history of the game was what Alabama did. And I thought Steve Sarkesian was outstanding.

Obviously, they had a lot of great players. But you talk about from a schematic standpoint, putting pressure on people, being able to do a lot of different things, whether it's tempo, formations, motions, different ways of creating explosives, being balanced, running and throwing the football. They were as fun to watch as anybody. And that was one of the offenses that definitely stood out with all the great things that they did. do you have coaches who like study smaller schools you don't have time to watch who are like hey sean you got to see what norfolk state is doing yeah good question yes uh i think there's always the element of all right this is something that fits within the framework of our offense i thought cliff alluded to it last week it's like all right you might see a lot of good plays but you got to first ask

yourself does it fit with your personnel and then how you want to foundationally operate and philosophically operate and so there's a lot of guys we got a lot of coaches in our building that love football and they know how we want to operate and if they see something, it doesn't matter where it's coming from. No good idea or no idea, no matter what level is not good enough to be stolen from us. Like I said, all the best coaches are the best thieves. And we absolutely have pulled from a bunch of different places. But, you know, when you're studying a lot of these college players, our coaches will tag good ideas and I'll say, you've got to see some of this stuff. I love that. Some of these different places are checking out. And, you know,

You know, we definitely have stolen a handful of those ideas without a doubt. Can you name one? I mean, I would love this. If there was a smaller school or there wasn't a big program where you're like, hey, I saw this from this team. That would be really neat to hear. Do they know? Are they watching the Rams one day?

And they're like, that's my play. Depends on, if I say, you know, it depends on when it was run. We can usually go back and fact check it based on the dates. You can really see who ran at first. But I'll tell you one of the guys, you know, who's now the OC at Pittsburgh or at, yeah, at Pittsburgh, and I think he was the OC at the University of Pitt, is Matt Canada, when he was running all these different jet sweeps and types of motions pre-snap, that was something that I remember seeing a couple years ago.

Some of our coaches brought that to my attention, and that had somewhat of an influence on what we started really doing in 18. And, you know, even going back to before we got here, some of the different ways that they were utilized in Tavon Austin when Brian Schottenheimer was the OC. Those are things that, you know, it's, it's all right. What are the best ways to express the skill set of your players, your personnel? And, you know, I just, that's one of the things that kind of off the top of my head came to mind. And I mean, I even, even, we implement some things that I learned when I was at Maris, you know, running the triple option.

It just might be, instead of under the center running triple option, you do a variation of kind of reading one instead of having the block them and trying to change the math in a favorable manner for you offensively or vice versa defensively. That's great. Okay, let's get to the voicemail here. Here we go. Hi, I'm Charles from Connecticut. And I had a question for both of you, both in terms of coaching and as an analyst. They're sometimes drawn a dichotomy between the sort of stereotype of the analytics mind and the, you know, the football guy stereotype or however you want to put that. I sort of want to know how do you approach knowledge in a sense of how do you balance things that you can know,

you know, empirically or mathematically at least, versus stuff you know experientially or by trial and error. And is there really any dichotomy at all? Thank you again and really like the show. So it's basically, you know, how often do you betray what the analytics tell you to do to go instead with your gut or what you've learned from experience?

Yeah. It's a very good question, and I think it's a balance. And to say that I can put an exact percentage on that balance wouldn't be accurate. The interesting thing I think about football is there is a lot of analytical evidence that helps facilitate sound decision making. But what you have to take into account that I think is so important of finding that balance

as a coach is, all right, let's use that knowledge to our advantage. But let's also understand that what makes football so entertaining and engaging is there's 22 moving parts on every single snap and nothing ever really goes exactly according to plan. There's matchups. There's different things that you can expect situationally. For example, there's a lot of fourth downs that it does. does make sense. And if you just look at the overarching theme, oh, yeah, fourth and one you should go for. But if I told you that we got our third string right tackle at the point of attack for our short

yardage call and JJ Watt has been teeing off all day, I'll tell you that, hey, I understand the analytics, but I would respectfully say maybe this might not be the best percentage for us. So it is a balance like everything, but I think it's something that you have to be engaged and enlightened to understand. And a lot of that stuff is for people that are a lot smarter than me, but you certainly use it. But to say that there's a perfect dichotomy, I don't know, but it is a part of the decision-making process that you would be naive to ignore. And it's something that we definitely implement and has been helpful in making sound decisions. And then ultimately, it's about, you know, our guys being able to execute in those crunch time moments. And I think, you know,

Sean, that was so well put because, you know, we get these grades from the pro football focus. who do an amazing job. And then in the heat of the moment, you don't necessarily say, okay, I'm just looking at a chart or I'm looking at what I'm supposed to do because you've got other things going on. I look at roster management, though. And you could take a numerous selections

where people immediately will say, well, they didn't need that on their roster, and they'll give the person a D on the draft grade or an F on the draft grade. How could you take him when this guy was ranked here? The analytics, you don't know the team. You don't necessarily know the chemistry, what their needs are inside the locker room

or maybe what they value as a team. So I'll give you an example. You know, the Ravens, they draft this guy, Ben Mason out of Michigan, and he's a big fullback, and he could play tight end,

and he looks like he might as well be Pat Ricard or Nick Boyle, and people are trashing the pick saying he's not a draftable player. Yet before what the Ravens do, that guy's got a role, and he's going to play a huge part in it. So it's almost like there is no,

straight way to say, hey, this is how you build this roster. Every team is different. There's 32 teams. They've got different characters. They've got different personalities. And they have different ways of going about their business. And the same way that the caller just said, hey, you know, sometimes you've got your football guy and your analytics guy. I would also advise not against judging a book by its cover. Some of the most intimidating biggest guys that are in coaching also happen to be the sharpest minds and vice versa, some of the guys in the front office in coaching

who you don't look like your typical football or didn't play football might be the sharpest when it comes to not only coaching football but dealing with players. And I've seen that time and time again. So don't let someone's appearance or what their resume as a player is really coming to play

when you're talking about being a coach. Yeah. Very well said there, Peter. The thing that I do think can be a little bit more cut and dry is, all right, usage of timeouts and the clock management element of it. You know, those are a little bit more cut and dry, statistically driven where, hey, there's a clock. But when you start talking about your decision making that involves the human element that is a huge part of it, that's where that delicate balance comes into play.

And I think, like anything, hard work pays off learning from the good decisions, but also the bad ones, which I'm not afraid to admit there's been a lot of those and got to be able to learn from them and use them as a learning op moving forward. It's a balance for that dichotomy. Do you consider yourself an analytics coach or a football guy? I think you've got to be able to balance both. I think there's a lot of things that analytically sometimes I would maybe go against the grain based on, all right, well, there's a whole week of preparation. There are those 22 moving parts that might go against the grain for some of the analytically driven decisions on, you know, you go for it here or different things like that.

Those are the things that I think you have to take into account. And yeah, it is a big part of it. But also the matchups, the players, the time in the game, the situation, the feel for the flow of the game. That's where I think a lot of these great decision makers in our game really separate themselves by that feel that they have, but balance in both ends of the spectrum because they are both important. Love it. What's the biggest question in analytics? Sean, do you believe in momentum? Oh, hell yeah.

Momentum is a real thing. No doubt about it. I mean, when guys get going. and they're playing well and they've got confidence. I mean, it happens in sports. You're watching the NBA playoffs right now. Ask Kauai Leonard that after the way that he finished up that series. You know, the answer is, yes, I do believe in momentum.

And I think it can be really powerful in both directions, either positively or negatively, depending upon that type of momentum that you got going for you. Good stuff. Sean McVeigh. What about you, Craig? Do you believe in momentum? I 100% believe in momentum. I think we've gone too far with analytics to,

argue that momentum doesn't exist. We're not considering these people as human beings. So would that be, is that the, from the analytics background stuff, would that be the case that they don't believe in momentum? Oh, absolutely. Like that Ravens Niners Super Bowl a while ago, remember, the Ravens were rolling, but then there was that blackout. And then the Niners kind went on that massive comeback. And everyone's like, oh, yeah, the blackout caused the Ravens to give up the momentum. And the analytics people are like, no, there's no such thing as momentum. That's not how it works. You know, they kind of believe teams don't get hot. You can't get hot at the right time and go on a run. Nothing like that. That's just hard for me to understand. Good stuff as always.

Craig, thank you so much. We'll be back next week. Sean, any final words for the podcast? No final words other than always a pleasure with you two. Zach Taylor was outstanding. Appreciate him coming on with us. Absolutely. So I guess I did have some final words then, huh? It was great. That's like my pet peeve. You know, one of our, Real quick, all right? I'm going to go on to my soapbox for a second. You know, we had a guy, JW, who's great working with our personnel staff.

And he was really one of the few people. You know, you do these draft meetings. He say, hey, anything to add. And most people know nothing to add, and then they add something. That's just what I just did to you. But JW was great where he would say, nothing to add,

and he truly did not add anything unless he had something to add. But that doesn't happen as often or as frequently as you would think. referenced by me saying, no, nothing, and then I did say something. Fantastic stuff. As JW did, I would say this is the final words of the podcast. We will see you all and hear you all, or you'll hear us next week.