The Ringer NFL Show - Brady vs. Lamar, The Nontrade Deadline, Dalton’s Benching, and the Art of the Tank | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: October 31, 2019

Teams were incredibly quiet at this year's trade deadline. We talk about why this was a mistake for the Bengals and the other tankers. Then, a Take Shop on the best NFL brothers of all time and the AFC South’s potential playoff teams (2:00) before we get into the biggest three games of the week, break down the 49ers' offensive scheme, and defend the Jets (29:20). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the NFL show is brought to you by State Farm. When you need a game plan for protection, state farm agents are here to help. With personalized service, agents are available to talk in person over text or through the State Farm app. So go with the one with coverage and agents you can count on. Find an agent in your neighborhood today. State Farm. Talk to an agent today.

Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays. Joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. A little let down by the trade deadline. But, you know, listen, we got some action before him. And so let's not get greedy.

That's true, but I was sitting there on the couch. I thought there were going to be some big moves. There was nothing. We're going to get to that. I just want to say before we start the show, to thank D.K. for filling in on Sunday night, I had a little bit of a snafu with my travel.

I was at a wedding in Austin. It was not because the Bears lost, which some people thought. I showed up after the double-doin game. I have moved on and I have come to bat after worse. So don't think a Bears loss is going to keep me from doing the show. There have been terrible, terrible Bears' loss. losses.

How dare listeners think you still have the capacity to feel pain? That's exactly right. I mean, you think this was the tipping point? Trubisky didn't even play that badly. There were some bad moments, but for the most part, it was one of his better games. So trust me, it's gotten much lower than this. It will continue to get lower than this. And I will be back doing the show.

We will talk about the bears in a bit. Yeah, I know. We certainly will. Before we get to that, though. You tried to get out of it. I wanted to talk about some different teams. I was not trying to wheeze a lot of it. Again, for the second time this week,

I'm not trying to wheeze a lot of talking about the bears. I don't mind. I also want people to know most of the time when we talk about them on this show, it's because you ask to. Because you purposely enjoy this. You never bring it up. I know,

because I don't like talking about it. I assume people think that if I never met, after the double doinck game, if I was like, we're just going to focus on the other wild card game, you'd be like, that's fine. We're just never going to bring up the double door. That was Chargers Ravens that day.

We just could have talked about Chargers' Ravens. Fantastic. It's fine with me. All right. So let's talk about the trade deadline because obviously there were some moves before it happened. But it was kind of a dead trade deadline. And we thought it was going to be a lot more active, like we said, Len last week's show, just because there are so many teams that are bad this year.

The gulf between the good and bad is so large that it felt like a lot of these teams would make some moves just to recoup some value for players that won't be a part of their long term plan. I mean, that's what the dolphins have been doing this entire off season. You know, you tweeted about it. I tweeted about it. there is such a chasm between Miami and their long-term plan and the lack of long-term plans that exist in places like Cincinnati or Washington. So which teams surprised you the most with some of their non-moves and which team do you think hurt themselves the most by going that route? Well, I was surprised in general by Andy Dalton's benching.

Andy Dalton, as Zach Taylor said, was not the problem. And so you bench him on the morning of the trade deadline. When that move was made, the only thing I think of was they were going to, to trade him. There's no real reason to, you know what Andy Dalton can do. They want to see Ryan Finley, who I saw in preseason. I was not, with the one practice I was at, I was not hugely impressed by him, but I guess they want to see him in the game. Which I think makes sense. That makes sense to me based on where they're going. If they know Andy Dalton isn't the answer, why not see what you can get out of Ryan Linley for half the season. Sure, but you could have gotten a nice little pick. I mean,

what I tweeted about the- But they think that the turnaround is a little too fast, though. No, but here's what I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying, okay? The exact phrase I tweeted was, The Dolphins figured out they sucked months ago and planned ahead. Everybody else just realized they sucked. The Bengals knew what Andy Dalton was. There was no law that said they couldn't bench him until the morning of the trade deadline.

They could have planned ahead for this, yet they are just a conservative franchise that doesn't like to do things like the Dolphin. What the Dolphins are doing is fairly aggressive. Just as far as trading way, trading way, Make-Fitts Patrick. I mean, they're doing what the Browns did a couple of years ago. They're not the first team to do it, but they are doing something that no other team is doing right now.

Every other team... The Dolphins are doing it to a more... The Dolphins is a little bit more pronounced. The Browns didn't trade guys with multiple years left. There were high picks on their rookie contracts. Sure. If they did, I don't remember it. But what I'm saying is that...

I mean, the Brock Osweiler's salary dumped. I mean, it was stuff like that they were doing that was outside of the box. But what I'm saying is that everybody else is just being... bad because they're bad, and the dolphins are being bad for a reason. And I think that's the big difference. I'm not saying the dolphins are going to be good in three years. I'm not saying that at all. But if you're the Redskins and you just randomly said, we're not going to trade Trent

Williams, and then like five days before you're like, oh, maybe. And then on Tuesday... It was like, oh, yeah, and then on Tuesday, they're like, oh, yeah, we'll trade him. I mean, what kind of negotiating is that? You could have got, this is a world where Laramiemey Thompson went for two first-round picks. You've got Trent Williams. Trent Williams hates you.

You're going to be, you're going to lose anyway. you can get value for that. There's no, you know, we've talked about it so many times. I think I started off saying this the first regular season podcast we did and we're talking about lessons we went from training camp. The league is not nearly as progressive as we think. The league is not nearly as in step with what we talked about this podcast, we don't about decision making, how to run a franchise, whatever that is.

There are a lot of teams who are running at like 1997, okay? And there are essentially two NFLs. And that's why people like the chiefs or the Patriots or the Ravens, or the Eagles in most years, you know, the last seven weeks notwithstanding. That is why a lot of those teams are pretty good all the time or really good all the time or Super Bowl contenders all the time, because they're smarter than some of these other teams who have no idea how to run an organization. The Trent Williams thing is malpractice. It's absolutely unacceptable to not try to go get something for him.

It's just vindictive. They just don't want to give him what he wants. How would you possibly think? It's not worth getting a second round pick for Trent Williams right now, based on where you're going. Do you think that Trent Williams is still going to be playing when you're a contender? There's no chance. Let me tell you something.

Let me tell you when I look at, when I look at those moves and I look at everything the Redskins have done over the past seven weeks and maybe the past seven years, do you know the only, do you know, the only thing that explains it? There's only one thing that explains it. They don't give a damn about winning. Yeah. That's it. They don't care about winning.

If you're making these moves and you're going to say, you know what, we could get a couple first round picks or at least a first round pick for Trent Williams, who hates us and is just not going to play for us. But instead we're going to be vindictive and let him sit on the bench and just getting a weird feud with them. That says that you are prioritizing yourself and your feelings over winning.

And if I was a Redskins fan, we're getting in the zone where if you're a Redskins fan, I am okay letting you out of your contract and becoming a fan of another team. Oh, I think you could have done it three years ago. I honestly think you could have. I just, when I wrote, went back and wrote about them a few weeks ago, and you're just going down all of the crimes against football, it's a laundry list. It's unbelievable to look at it in its totality because you're 100% correct.

They just don't give a shit. They do not give a shit about trying to do things the right way. It is all about just pass. adding the pockets of these guys in charge and having this good old boys club. I wrote it. Drinking Coors lights with your boss is not grounds for employment. And that's not even a pot shot. That's pretty much something that was written in the Washington Post story about the partnership

between Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder. They drink together at midnight, like hang out. It's just if that's the type of decision you're making about who's going to run your franchise, your franchise is always going to be bad. at least with Cincinnati, I can understand how this happens. And it's not just evil's the wrong word, but it's not just cravenness that leads the Bengals to this point. It's being conservative. It's just not being the type of franchise that does these sorts of things.

In the end, I feel like it gets you to a similar place, which is why those are the worst two teams in the league outside of Miami right now. But the motivations are different for it. When it comes to Dalton, I get why no one traded for him because it's so. such a huge move to trade for a quarterback, to know that he was probably available or for it to be that clear, only hours before the trade deadline, think about all the machinations you'd have to go through to trade for him in those hours. You'd have to get your owner to sign off on it. It's a massive move.

So that's why I just didn't think it was going to happen. I also think that trading for a quarterback midseason, there's diminishing returns. It's not going to transform who you are. But when it comes to people like Gino Atkins, right? You can argue that AJ Green gives you the best chance to evaluate Ryan Finley. Fine. I think it's not a good argument, but I understand it. When it comes to guys like Gino Atkins or Carlos Donnell, who can be moved and are valuable,

what is the value in keeping them at this point? Where are you going to be in three years when they're probably gone? Yeah, Gino Atkins is signed through 2022, at which point will be 34 years old. It'll be 34 years old. I can understand keeping Gino Adkins. I mean, Juno Adkins, at his best, is an elite,

elite player. And if you think you're two years away, you probably want Gino Adkins. The cap hit is... But are they two years away? But maybe, but I, listen, but I'm what I'm... If two is a superstar,

I guess I get it. Maybe, but his cap hit in 2021 is $14 million. I'm totally fine with that. I'm in. I can understand that. I'm in on, on 14 million dollars of Gino Adkins.

I understand what you're saying. Listen, if some team wanted a, overpay and give some, like, if somebody lost their mind, tried to give the Jaylon Ramsey deal for Gino Adkins, I'd be fine taking that. But I understand why you wouldn't want to ship him out for a second round pick. What about for a first round pick? Do you think it'd be smart to keep him if somebody offered you a first round pick for Gino Atkins? I don't, I don't know the answer to that. I just don't think it is, man. I just, I get your argument and I get if, because we've seen teams

turn it around quickly and it's be, it's so important if you get the quarterback to be able to do that. And let's say they do pick second overall. Yeah. And Justin Herbert's a superstar. Maybe it happens quicker than we feel. But I just think that that defense is such a mess. And you're not,

Gino Atkins and a couple guys away from fixing it. So even if you bring in two and next year, the infrastructure in that team or to whoever it is, the infrastructure with that team is so inherently broken. I just feel like it's worth trying to start rebuilding it from the bottom up. Again, though, this isn't a team that's willing to make that drastic of a decision. Yeah,

Mike Brown is not going to have a process-style rebuild. That would not be happening. He's a football guy. I think he, listen, the Bengals have brought in talent over the years under his tenure. I mean, it's a bit like, obviously, it's completely different because they don't spend nearly as much money and don't have an interest in it. But it's not unlike Jerry Jones, where the owner is the GM, essentially, and they have drafted pretty well over the course of that tenure. I mean, it's not like there hasn't been talent. Not over the last four years, and that's why the bottom is falling out.

But they do have players like William Jackson. They fit on who I think are really good. But it's not like the Bengals or the Bengals of the 90s, even though Mike Brown was under that too. And so I think this is just a disaster of a year. I think Bengals fans are getting fed up with Zach Taylor. I give him another chance to kind of build another team and see how it goes. But I just don't know where this franchise is headed right now.

I said their season was over in July. And you thought that was crazy for me to say. If the writing was on the wall. I said it was over in August when AJ is headed. Green got hurt on a high school field. I think that's about when I said it, but even before that, when Jonah Williams got hurt. You had it a week before. And then I called it.

It was like networks on election night. You called the Bengal season over before I did. I mean, it's just been such a disaster in so many ways. I don't want to get down the Bengals rabbit hole here, but just think about all the offensive linemen they've missed on. And obviously, if Williams was in, that's a little bit of a different story. But the Bengals left tackle right now was John Jerry. John Jerry wasn't a starting caliber guard like three years ago.

And now he's their left tackle. Their first round center that they picked last year has to play guard, and he's terrible. It's really been such a bad run for them. And that's the problem, right? The Green Bay had a little bit of a bad run for a while. In the last few years, it's been fine. They hit on Alexander. They hit on Kenny Clark.

But before that, in the Dayton Jones range, it was bad. And they've finally learned that you need to supplement that roster with some sort of outside talent when you're not crushing every single draft pick. And the Bengals have just refused to do it. So you're left with these barren teams because they've been unable to add talent to them in any sort of way. I mean, Bobby Hart's on this team. Yes, they re-signed Bobby Hart. They re-signed him in the offseason.

That was one of their big moves in free agency. Like, that's what this team does. It's just, I cannot imagine what it would be like to be a Bengals fan. I mean, my team sucks right now. Sure does. But at least there's been some ambition to some degree. about trying to win football games. I guess, yeah.

I mean, it is, it's a very confusing franchise. Hey, would you rather be a Bengals fan or a Reds fans fan? I'd rather be a Bengals. One hundred percent. Because, again, it's not this level of just, they're not spitting in your face constantly. I think it's more just being a little bit old school and conservative and not understanding how this stuff works rather than we're just going to actively

try to, what's the word I'm looking for, actively antagonize you. They're not trying to do that. It feels like the Redskins are. The Redskins, I mean, Bruce Allen is just a wrestling heel at this point. He really is. It's unbelievable. He should just come out to some sort of like Vince McMahon-esque music. Every single time he comes out for a press conference.

Oh my God. I need to stop you right now. John Kime has tweeted this out. The Redskins are dipping footballs in water to get used to possible bad weather on Sunday on Buffalo. As of now, there is no rain in the forecast. It's just Buffalo, so the weather's terrible. The weather was pretty bad when I was in Buffalo. a couple weeks ago.

I just love the idea of Bill Callahan just saying the jury's still out on science and dipping water, dipping balls in water. The jury's still out on science. So what's the, before we move on here, I want to get through the particulars

of the Trent Williams thing very quickly. So wasn't it originally announced that he had passed his physical? Well, no, he had helmet discomfort. It's amazing. I'm rooting for Trump. He got his helmet on and said,

I had surgery. my helmet hurts. We're in a golden age of helmet-related helmet-related scandals. We really are. And now it's time for the State Farm Safe Byte of the week, the player you can count on. When you need a game plan for protection,

state farm agents are here to help. With personalized service, agents are available to talk in person, over text, or through the State Farm app. So go with the one with coverage and agents you can count on. Find an agent in your neighborhood today. Robert, we want to talk about a breakout star

for the Green Bay Packers, Mr. Aaron Jones. We certainly do. He has been such a blast to watch this year, and a big part of it has been the way that the Packers have used to. You know, last season, he only had, I think, 34 targets, I think 35. He had 34 coming into last week. And then he had a monster game. The Green Bay Packers before this year really didn't use the running backs in the passing game. It wasn't a big part of their offense.

They didn't use the running backs at all, really. Period. They had the second highest passing percentage in the league last year, I believe, outside of Pittsburgh. So we just didn't really see an offense that leaned on the running backs at this degree. and we're really finding out what sort of talent level and what sort of just talent variety Aaron Jones has. To be able to not just use him in the screen game and to be able to use him split out

to take advantage of linebackers, I mean, this is a Chargers defense that has struggled mightily stopping the run and they don't have much talent on the second level. And I just feel like this is the type of day where Aaron Jones could go nuts as both a runner and a receiver. Yeah, we've been talking about the way Green Bay

was using their running back center Mike McCarthy. It was just not. logical. The running back position has changed. It will never matter like it did 10, 15, 20 years ago, but you can make it matter by using them in the passing game, using them creatively. And that's what Matt Lafleur is done. 20 touches last week for 226 yards. Robert, he was the first Packers running back with 150 receiving yards in a game since the merger. And he could have had more if he didn't step on bounds on that play. It really is remarkable to see just how drastically, how drastically different the usage is. I mean, this is a team that had

success under McCarthy just in such a different way. And I know that running the ball and having it be the key of your offense and it be the focal point of your offense is not necessarily a good thing, but you can find a balance where your under center running game is a huge part of what you do and still maintain efficiency. And I think the Packers have really started to strike that balance. Yeah. Okay. So we like Aaron Jones against the Chargers this weekend.

State Farm. Talk to an agent today. Okay. Let's move on. Let's get to the next week's take shot. Kevin, why don't you start us off? Joey Bosa and Nick Bost. So both players of the week.

Huge weeks. Both players of the week in their respective conferences. That might happen a lot. The Manning Brothers also did this. Based on pure talent, based on pure talent, not fame, not money, not anything else. My take shop is that I think that the Bosa brothers are going to retire being the best brother duo in the history of football. So you're discounting the Manning's in this scenario based on the talent thing. So Peyton Manning is the most.

talented player on the list of people who are brothers, right? Does that make sense? So, like, he's number one, if you were just going to take everybody on this list, he's number one. Eli is not as good as Peyton Manning. That's just a little bit of newsflash for you guys. So here are the candidates. Thanks, buddy. I'm glad you're here. Right now, Kelsey Brothers, the Griffin brothers obviously are in league right now. The Watt brothers, we're going to, you know, the Gronks, that whole deal, right? The Griffins? Yeah, the guys who play in Seattle. Oh, the Griffins. I thought you were talking about Michael Gros. Griffin because I mean, I was like, I don't think he's been a league for a while.

No, no, no, no. But he also had a brother. The Bennett brothers. Continue. The Kendricks. Those are those are the candidates now. When you dip into retired people, it gets more interesting. So the Barber brothers, obviously, the Longs featuring Ringer contributor, Chris Long and

current bear, Kyle Long, who is out for the year. Randall and Sam Cunningham, which I, I think that's an underrated. That's an underrated. That's an underrated. Vernon, Avanti Davis, who is who, I just, I just thought about whether or not, Vante Davis was in the league and then I remember he retired a halftime. So now I'm happy.

Now I'm happier than I was when I started this. The McCowns, which obviously are right there with the Manning Brothers is so legendary. Dynasties. The Pouncy Twins. Let's just set them aside for a second. And then I think that this, these two have an argument to be the most talented brothers. One and two.

Sterling and Shannon Sharp. So I think that you put the Manning Brothers and Sterling and Shannon Sharp at the very top, and depending how you feel about Eli Manning, you can kind of throw them in either direction as one and two. I think the Bosa brothers have a chance to not only be in that group,

but possibly, if you've seen them over the past couple of weeks and a couple of years, they have the chance to be number one. Are any of those pairings both in the Hall of Fame? Because Sterling Sharp is not. Sterling Sharp should be, but he had to retire because of back injury.

He was like the Grunkowski of his day, even though he was a wide of senior. He's been on like one of those who should be next lists when it comes to the Hall of Fame. A lot of guys who were around covering the league back then are big Sterling Sharp believes.

I believe Peter King has always been kind of probably the table for Sterling Sharp. The big thing is that he didn't, he never talked to the media like ever. So that's probably why. And so no, no. And so like people, people say that that's like a huge,

was a huge problem for him. And there's a couple of baseball guys like that too who were just so anti-media that they never, they never got the goodwill of the writers. I think that has something to do with it. But he was so freaking talented. Yeah, he was incredible.

Which is hilarious now that Shannon Sharp is his brother who talked constantly and is now host a show with Skip Bayliss. He played from 88 to 94. Well, Charlie Sharp was on TV too. And it was weird. But he played from 88 to 94. He made five pro Bowls, three first team all pros, three-time NFL receptions later, two-time

touchdown leader. By the way, he wasn't, you know, 88. He came pre-Bret Fav. Yeah, exactly. He got some Brett Favre, but he was basically tailing out at that point because of injury. So anyway, let's not get into a Stowing Sharp Hall fan discussion. We don't have to do that.

It's interesting because Eli I think Eli will get in the hall fan which I think is ridiculous. But yes, that's fine. Yes. I think that's ridiculous. Do you think there's a case to be made that the Kelsey brothers would? If Travis becomes sort of this generation's

I just don't think, I think the bar for Jason's way too high. Offensive line and you have to be transcendent to make it And while he's been the best center in the league multiple times, I mean, guys like Steve Hutchinson can't get into the Hall of Fame. I mean, he was the best guard in league for a decade. So I just think it's really difficult. I think Travis Kelsey with the right numbers probably could.

I think that the Super Bowl, I think the problem with offensive line analysis is a lot of times, it's just who won. And Kelsey did win a Super Bowl. That's why. So I don't think either of the Kelsey Brothers would get in, but I was just throwing that out there since, you know, if their careers continue.

It's funny. I think Tiki Barber, I think there was, a chance. There's a, in one of the many multiverses, there was a chance of Tiki Barber hadn't retired to go be a pundit that he could have just hung around and joined his brother. Maybe. I mean, Tiki Barber made one first team all pro team. You know, I know, but he played in the league for 10 years. I understand that. But if he kept going and he, you know, he was on another Super Bowl team, all this stuff. Like, you just never know on that stuff. Yeah, maybe if he's on that 07th Super Bowl team because he retired the year before. Yeah, I could see that argument. I mean, isn't Jerome Bettis in the Hall of Fame? Yeah, because he played for like 60 years. and he won multiple Super Bowls. Yeah, he was an all pro. It's interesting to me how many times.

Jerome Bettis is much better than Jeannie Barb for the record. I'm just saying when you talk about running backs who hang out and win a lot, sometimes they get in. Yeah, there's a chance like Frank Gore gets into the Hall of Fame. I think he will. Which is based on production in general. It's interesting to me how many guys from the same, our brothers have been picked in the first round together.

Yeah. I think the pounties both were. The mannings obviously were both the number one overall pick. Vernon Avanti. Vernon and Vante Davis were both first round picks. And you think about the fact that Sterling Sharp or Shannon Sharp was so good in his career. But one of the things about Shannon Sharp is that he was a seventh round pick. And his brother was the seventh overall pick, which I find that fascinating.

The longs, the longs were first round picks. The longs are both first round picks. Yep. Kyle was the 20th overall pick. That's right. But the boasts are up there. I mean, you have a number two overall pick and a number three overall pick. In terms of talent, that's pretty damn.

I'm good. I think Joey's really good. I think that Nick is currently having a better season than Joey's ever had in his entire career. Interesting. I mean, he's been the most dominant edge rusher in football. Let me ask you. He's been so, so good. Do you think it's not even just sacks? It's that the pressures, everything. He's destroying. The turnovers. Yes. Do you think that there's a case to be made that he should win, that Nick should win defensive player of the year on top of rookie of the year? Yes, absolutely. Do you have him as your I did not pick him. Okay. Because I think that it's tough for a rookie to win. I had a weird pick.

I don't know if we've run this. I picked Jamie Collins. Okay. I pick Stefan Gilmore. I'm a little bit worried. I'm a little bit worried. It's like the 2002 Miami Heisman voting where they just, it was, it was just, people were just like, I'm going to vote for Ken Dorsey.

It's like, what? And so I think that there might just be a split and no Patriot wins, Defense of a year, even though they should. The reason that I picked Collins is that we can. You can talk about this when we talk about the Patriots we want. The reason I pick Collins is just that he's doing so many different things. He'd be the first player in NFL history to get double-digit sacks and five interceptions in the same season because he's currently on pace to get that.

He's also forced two fumbles. I just feel like it's so hard to do all the things he's doing well. And I'm probably putting the fact that he's making $3 million into the equation and I think it's ridiculous. Gilmore's been really good. But the rest of that secondary has been excellent too. I mean, Jonathan Jones has been good. McCordy leads league and interceptions.

It's tough. I feel like to me, the most outstanding player on that defense this year has been Jamie Collins. I can understand the arguments against that, though. Yeah, we can have a little more with the pages defense later, but I just think that there's, I think that Stefan Gohmor,

what he's doing and basically shutting down one half of the field is, what he allows them to do, I feel like is definitely part of the conversation, for sure. Okay, let's get to mine. I kind of think that the AFC South is going to have three playoff teams. I really feel like the Jags are coming on.

They're a strange team to me. In terms of what I thought they were going to be before the season and what they are now, not even just in terms of quality, but what they are, there's a strange disconnect to that because Minchew obviously is the weirdest thing. But what they're getting from chart, what their passing offense looks like. And then the defense, even without Jalen Ramsey,

that front can still just ruin a game together. And we see it all the time. Campbell is playing at such a high level. Josh Allen would win defensive rookie of the year in any other season. It's just that Bosa is going nuts. So I don't know. I feel like right now, if you look at it, Buffalo is going to be probably six and two after this week, right? They have a game against Cleveland after that.

They're playing Washington. They have a game against Cleveland after that. That's a potential loss. I don't, I think they can beat the Browns. But the end of their schedule is absolutely. Absolutely brutal. So to end the season, they also have the Broncos, which the Broncos are not a terrible team.

Their defense actually comes to play. There is a stretch where they have to play the Cowboys, the Bills, the Steelers who weren't very good, and the Patriots. They easily could win or lose three of those games. So if they drop one that we don't expect and they played the Jets really close in week one, they could end up nine and seven. And I think Jacksonville is playing well enough now. that maybe they get to 9 and 7,

we get to a tiebreaker situation. I think that they are the sixth best team in the AFC right now. Okay. So they beat the Jets. This is the Jaguars. They have the Texans, which is, I think that in a weird way,

the badness of that, sorry, the goodness of that division and the badness of the AFC East will hurt the Jaguars. So they've got the Texans, the Colts, the Titans, the Bucks,

the Chargers, the Raiders, the Falcons, the Colts. There is not, I think that the Falcons are the Gimmie win here. And I think everything else can go, I'm not saying 50-50, but some of these teams can pull off an upset. And I think that one of the things about making the playoffs this year is how many really just awful teams you have in your schedule, whether that's the Falcons. Yeah, and they don't have any left.

Except the Falcons. Yeah, the Falcons. The Cowboys. I was just looking at the name of the Cowboys. Sorry. The Falcons, the Bengals, the dolphins, the Redskins, those are the type of teams in the nearest schedule. The bills have had that. The Jets, obviously, we'll throw that in there.

The bills already beat the Jets in week one. So I think that there's, this is a schedule year. I think this is probably one of the best examples of how unfair the NFL schedule can be, but that's just sort of how it goes. Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I also think that when looking at that stretch, when they have the Titans, the Bucks, the Chargers, the Raiders, and the Falcons,

they could win all five of those. So if you win one game against the Colts, you're at 10 wins. I mean, I understand that it's a long road to do it. I just feel like they're playing well enough where it might be on the table for them. I mean, this is a team that pushed the Titan, or excuse me, pushed the Texans and the Panthers recently.

I mean, those are one-score games. They were in both of those. So I could absolutely see them going on some sort of run. They are playing well on both sides of the ball and wait, I did not expect. They're fun. I like them. I don't want to make it seem like I'm anti- Jaguars.

I'm hugely pro-Jaguers. I'm hugely pro-Minchu. I just, it's a math problem at this point. Yep, I can see that. All right, before we move on, let's take a quick break. The Google Assistant is ready to help you get more done with just your voice in the car, at home, and everywhere you take your phone. When you're driving and want to listen to this podcast, hands-free, just say,

hey, Google, play the latest episode of the ringer NFL show. Sure, playing the latest episode of the ringer NFL show. Hey, Google, pause podcast. A little help, hands free. Just say, hey, Google to get started. All right, let's get to the biggest three games of the week. Let's start with the Vikings at the Matt Moore-led chiefs. I did not expect before the season for this to be a game between two of the best offenses in football.

Like two of legitimately the best three or four offenses in football. The Vikings, even though they didn't put up a top. ton of points last week against Washington. Cousins played fantastic again. I mean, do you see this game being a shootout if you're just trying to figure out how it's going to go? Yeah. I mean, I just think I saw an interesting stat last week that the the chiefs used play action

on 46% of their first downs in the first half. Highest or the highest play action percentage of the week last week. Yeah, exactly. And in the first half, Matt Moore was seven for 11, 105 yards touchdown and play action. That was via the NFL research Twitter account, which is invaluable. I think that Andy Reid can make Matt Moore into an average NFL quarterback. And I worry about the defense a little bit. I think that you need Patrick Mahomes to win you these games, and they don't have Patrick Mahomes.

But I think this will be at least a competitive game. And if you were looking at the rosters, it shouldn't be. This is an Andy Reid, Andy Reid classic. what he did last week was just such it was so far to watch he schemed he schemed matt more into a quarterback duel with erin rogers that's good take my backup quarterback i'm just going to run the shit out of play action just run the daylights out of it just every single time i can use it i'm going to which by the way is what you should do when your quarterback isn't good or is it or is good whatever, but especially if you have to manufacture offense with your quarterback, this is what a

smart play caller would do. It's what the smart play callers do do. So I just, it's so easy, but it's just so frustrated that more people don't understand. Look what the smart people do. Do it more often. Anyway, all the motion, the route combination designs, the throwback to Kelsey with like the double jet motion going in either direction, it's just stuff that no one else would think of. And he's leaning on just the throws of the flat and just this team speed he has. It's such a resourceful game plan. And I think we're going to see the same thing against Minnesota. The problem is the Vikings linebackers are better than the Packers linebackers. Kendrick's having the best season of his career. He's playing extremely well.

So I'll be curious to see if they can take advantage of just misdirection and all of that against the Minnesota defense. I'm also a little bit concerned about like you said about the Chief's defense. This is, we've seen the game plan against this Chief's defense. The Packers did it last week. It's let guys like Aaron Jones destroy you on the second level, and that's exactly what Minnesota is going to do. They have the personnel and the scheme to do that.

They're going to run 30 screens on Sunday, and the Chiefs are going to be able to do nothing about it. I mean, Kirk Cousins had the highest completion percentage in Vikings history last week. 88.8.5%. That's Drew Breeze-esque. He was awesome again. He's the top passer in football against the Blitz. Like, Kirk Cousins is playing, this is a weird thing to say, but Kurt Cousins is not only playing up to his contract at the moment.

He was the NFC player of the month. But at some point, I mean, like, Kirk Cousins for $84 million over three years, in relative to what Jared Gough costs, what Dack Prescott will cost. I think that Prescott's a very good quarterback. But at some point, if Kirk Cousins, Cousins plays like this, he's not only worth it. He might be a little bit of kind of what we talked

about where, you know, these quarterback contracts age so quickly that he might be a bargain next year. He's been the best quarterback in the league over the last month. I don't even think it's a conversation. Russell Wilson for the season has been amazing. But for Kurt Cousins over the last month, he's played perfect football. I don't think that's an exaggeration. He's played as well as you can play quarterback. And in the aggregate, I assume that it's all going to come back to some level, some like water will find its level. It's all going to come back to normal. But I've just been blown away. I mean, just the balls he's putting in certain spots. And the play action game helps him obviously. But it's not even a matter of that at this point. He's putting it

wherever he wants. Yeah. I mean, and that that's it. And he has, you know, look, he has the second biggest cap hit in the NFL this year. And I think that everyone is always going to talk about his fully guaranteed contract. But this contract is no longer a joke. This contract is no longer a joke. And I think that's impressive. And then beyond that, you know, look, the Vikings can be real contenders. They're a really good football team. They built this team

through defense. Kirk Cousins, by the way, next year becomes the eighth biggest contract hit. And all of a sudden, Ben Rothesberger is 33.5. Matt Ryan is 33.5. Jared Gough is 36. Rogers is 32. He's Stafford is 31.5. So Flacco is 23, for God's sakes.

And then obviously, Dak Prescott will be on that list, too. So listen, that contract has aged quite well relative to this. And I think that the Vikings can look, they're in a fringe, at this point a fringe NFC contender, but an NFC contender nonetheless. Oh, I definitely think they're going to make the playoffs. Oh, no, no, no. They're a wild card. I'm in on them making the playoffs.

I think that they'll win the NFC North. I love this team. But I'm saying I'm not ready to put them with the Saints and the, I would say probably the Packers as well. And then obviously the 49ers. That to me right now is the top three. I have the Vikings a cut below, but they're on my watch list here. I feel like they're getting to be in the conversation because the defense is still playing well. They have issues.

I feel like Xavier Rhodes is a problem right now to the point where they might be better if he were on the bench. I think that Mike Hughes should just be playing now full time. That's how bad it's gotten, but they still have a ton of talent on that side of the ball. I mean, we have Everson Griffin playing really well in a bounce back year going against a backup left tackle on Sunday. That's probably going to be an issue for Casey. they have enough talent to sustain them over there, even if it's not a dominant, transcendent defense that we've seen in recent years.

The way they're playing on offense is remarkable. They look so good. The running game has been efficient to the point where I don't care that they're running it on first down all the time because we're ripping it off six yards of carry. It doesn't really matter. So I feel like they're scary.

I think they absolutely can compete with any of those teams that you said. Yep, totally agree. They are one of the most intriguing teams to watch over the next eight weeks. for sure. All right. And I think that the level that Kirk Cousins plays at and whether he can sustain this to some degree. He's not going to play like this for the second half of the season. That's virtually impossible. But is it one step down from this. And if it is, I think they can still be very good. And they should get Adam Thiele back this week, I believe, after he missed last Thursday's game. So again, that's a boon for them. All right. Let's talk about the Bears at the Eagles. I didn't want to talk about this game. You wanted to talk about this game. Let's talk about it. Well, I want to dive into one particular point, which is we didn't get to talk about it on Sunday. Matt Nagy says he didn't even think about trying to get extra yards for the missed field goal.

Here's the problem with that, right? So the bear spent eight months, nine months, whatever it was, trying to fix a kicking situation. They had nine guy tryouts. They showed videos to them. Matt Nagy wouldn't stop talking about it because he wanted to face it head on within the facility. If you missed a field goal because you didn't try. trust your quarterback or your offense to run one more play to get you a few more yards without screwing up.

Well, guess what, Robert? The problem was never the kicker. They're just coaching and playing scared. And I understand that. And when your quarterback is playing this poorly, and he actually played okay on Sunday compared to what else he was doing. I tweeted this after I wrote about it. When your quarterback doesn't throw a touchdown pass, has two backbreaking turnovers in

the fourth quarter, goes over in the red zone in terms of actually productive completions. All of them did not gain more than half of what they needed to to get to the end zone. One of them was on third down short of the goal line and averages seven yards per attempt. And your thought is, you played pretty good. Your quarterback probably isn't very good. I mean, it is, it's a brutal situation right now. And you're going back watching the film, a couple people pointed the plays out on Twitter.

And there was a perfect design where Gabriel came across. I think it was Gabriel or Miller. I can't remember. It was in the slot on the left. They ran sort of like, it wasn't a switch vertical, but. He moved across the field in order to kind of change the responsibilities, wide open for a touchdown, air mails it. And it's just stuff like this where it still convinces me that if they had

moderately good quarterback play, they would be able to be a sustainable offense, if not a successful one. I think the line is still a huge concern. I think that Fletcher Cox is going to eat on Sunday. But I still feel like there's enough talent over there in the past catching core and on the coaching staff where if you have a guy you can trust to make some throws, the throws are there to be had. So I don't know what there is to say about it.

We've talked about it so much. The running game got going a little bit last week. I don't think it'll do much against this Philly front. The passing game just has no rhythm whatsoever, no continuity whatsoever, and no consistency whatsoever because you cannot rely on your quarterback to make throws down after down. It's really just not even that complicated at this point.

Is this a lost season for you? Yeah, absolutely it is. I mean, I said before the year coming in, nothing else mattered if the quarterback didn't get better. That was it. If he didn't get better, nothing else mattered. Because the defense was still going to be very good, but not as good as it was last year. They've gone from first to seventh and defensive DVOA.

They were not going to be as healthy as they were last year. You've already put your right guard on IR. Akeem Hicks is on IR. This is how it goes. This is how it goes. You cannot sustain defensive success like that. So you're going to fall off a little bit and you need the offense to pick it up. And the quarterback has gotten actively worse over the last two seasons.

He's playing worse than he did as a rookie if you look at the numbers. That's hard to believe. So now you move on. Now you have to move on. And I always knew coming in. You have to move on from the quarterback? Yeah. Absolutely.

Okay. I just don't know how you can look at the rest of your locker room in the eye and bring him back as you started. But what do you do? Do you draft? Do you sign? Do you trade? We talked about this. I think that you try to go get one of those less than desire about available options.

You know, we talked about Andy Dalton at the beginning of the show. I've been saying it for a month. And now everyone else is. caught onto it that he's been benched, but I've been saying it for a month that he was the guy I would want. It's him or it's a Tannahill, it's a Cam Newton, it's a whatever.

Newton is not, I don't really want to do that just because of a health situation. But there are guys that are going to be available in the spring. I'd take an injured Cam Newton right now. I wouldn't, oh, I'd take an injured Cam Newton over Mitchell Trabisky.

I don't think I'd take an injured Cam Newton over Randy Dalton. So that's what I think they're going to have to do because they don't have a first round pick. So we've talked a lot about this all the time. I don't think it's berth belaboring. We're in the same spot right now that we were a week ago. I want to talk about the Eagles a little bit, though, because that game against the Bills, the passing game wasn't

great because the wind was just gusting. They couldn't get much down the field. But I feel like the rest of the NFC does not want to see this Eagles team down the stretch. The Eagles team we saw last week, where the coverage is a little bit better, albeit against a bad Bill's passing offense. But the defensive lines controlling games. The offensive line is really starting to click in the run game. You have a rookie running back that might be starting to figure it out. And it really gives you a lot of juice. Sean Jackson gets back next week.

I think this Philly team absolutely could steal that final wild card spot in the NFC before it's all set and done. I think their talent is such that they're still really dangerous. Talk me out of that. Listen, I'm with you. I look for reasons that the Eagles are good still. I think that's probably what I'm doing. The same. We've talked about it.

It's what we do with the Vikings last year, where I picked them to, I think, either I go to the championship game or something like that, I remember. But I remember, well, week nine, being like, they still got it. They still got it a little bit. And maybe we're just looking for reasons for that. I think that their secondary is fatally flawed.

I just don't see that getting better. I was just talking. Well, they're getting healthy now. The fact that they got Jalen Mills back. Sure. It's not as banged up as it was. I know Jailen Mills is the savior of anything, but it's not as banged up as it was.

And I think it's going to be tough just because Seattle's in front of them. Seattle is the team I think they can catch. I feel like Minnesota is playing so well. They also lost the tiebreaker. They play Seattle before the season's over. You win that game. You're one game back with the tiebreaker.

So I absolutely think it's still in play for them. So I think that I was just talking to a ringer Eagles fan, not Chris Ryan on the lot here. And they were talking about how they think that the only solution would have been to

pay the price for Ramsey. And I'm curious, seeing what this team looks like right now, would you have done that trade? No, I wouldn't have traded two first-run-pix for Jamesi, period. I think I agree with that. I would have tried to go see what Chris Harris was available for. I think I agree with that.

And also, we had to do the weird Patrick Peterson rumor mill thing again for like three days. That's the guy I thought they were going to try to go get. That's a guy, I'm surprised, was not traded. Again, they're just not, he's the AJ Green of of Arizona is every three days

there's a report that teams are calling about Chris Harris Oh oh oh yeah yeah I'm surprised Chris Harris wasn't dealt I'm not surprised Patrick Peterson wasn't dealt Yeah

that those guys are the face of their franchise and have been for years I mean Larry Fitzgerald also But I mean Patrick Peterson is is that defense So I mean I think the AJ Green comparison is apt But Chris Harris is at the end of his contract

It's a bad team He clearly doesn't want to be there I'm surprised someone didn't go try to get him. I'm sure the price was a little bit too high, but if you're Denver, again, why not take a second round pick for Chris Harris? You're losing him anyway. You get a third round of a competitor two years from now?

I think I know why. It's just because John L.A. doesn't know he's doing. Yes, that's fair. Okay. It brings us back to our points at the beginning of the show. All right. Do you want to get to the premiere game of the week here?

Yes, I do. I'm so excited about this game. I am so pumped. I love that we've been. trying to find out all that we're talking about Patriots ravens by the way if that's that's not clear I've been it's been so fun to watch people try to figure out what belichick is going to do i thought you're talking about jet's dolphins yeah it's just dolphins is definitely the one i'm keeping eye on i'm really excited to see i think is everyone that cares about the machinations and nerdery of football what the

patriots are going to do because this is a team that for the most part has played a ton of man coverage they blitzed at a super high rate they've sent zero blitzes at a super high rate they've sent zero high rate. It's not what you want to do against a mobile quarterback. I just think that that's a way you get absolutely gashed. So what do they end up doing? Do they try to just play a ton of zone, confuse him, play some weird cover three variations that they really like?

What does the front look like against Lamar in that offense? Do they play some of those tight fronts that had worked against spread offenses in the past? I just think the answers to all of those questions are going to be absolutely fascinating over a three-hour period. Doug Farrar tweeted out, you know, there was, I guess some people were talking about how maybe he should spy Lamar Jackson. Don't do that. For the love of God, don't do that. Doug made the point. He said that if you, first of all, we know this by now, but Lamar Jackson's faster in linebackers.

And what Doug's line, Doug's line on Twitter was that, Doug's line on Twitter was that he made Bobby Wagner look like Vince Wilfork. And which I thought was pretty funny. That was really good. I think that that was something when I talked to the Bangladesh Trans coordinator. in preseason, we talked about building a defense to take down Lamar Jackson. And part of the reason that they hired

their linebacker's coach was because he was from Mississippi State and he understood kind of where their game of football was going. That was one of the, you know, obviously he's a great coach to all that, but they thought that might help them as well. And so I think that one of the things that they realized, the Bengals,

was that Lamar Jackson's faster than everybody but the cornerbacks, essentially, and maybe some safeties. And maybe some cornerbacks. No, certainly. Yeah, certainly. We still don't know how fast Lamar Jackson is on a 40-time basis, but I know how fast he looks on a football field

and he's the fastest guy. So, one of the things I've been saying for the past couple of years is that a young quarterback doesn't graduate to being anything other than a young quarterback. Bill Belichick throws a sink at them. And we saw it last year with Mahomes when he went

in New England in that incredible shootout, they were able to confuse him early. Remember he threw probably the worst interception of his career early on in that game where he just didn't see a linebacker. And I think that that, I think Belichick will be really good at confusing Lamar Jackson, but I also think Lamar Jackson just has the athleticism and the instincts and the skill, and he's just a good enough, he's just a good quarterback. And I think he'll be able to, I think that the chess match

from what Belichick throws it in, what Lamar Jackson is able to do to adjust. is one of the most fascinating things of 2019. Yeah. I think we're going to learn, maybe not a lot about Lamar Jackson because the Patriots defense is just so good. But it's like we were talking about last week. I wrote about it for next week.

It's just the idea of how we evaluate these quarterbacks and at what point in their development we see them because it's not about the highs as much as it is getting rid of the lows. It's about making sure your weaknesses don't torpedo who you are. And I think that we're going to find out what Bill Belichick thinks Lamar Jackson's weaknesses are. Yep. And watching that back and forth is going to be great. I mean, I just think that it's a perfect sort of matchup for where the league is right now and where the league might be going.

It's going to be so much fun to watch. Fired up. All right. Let's get to me geeking out. Let's get to your sneaky truth. I will start us off. Mine's about tonight. I mean, we usually save something for the Thursday night game.

We don't really have to. I just want people to watch what that 49ers offense looks like right now. watching them last week against Carolina. This is a Carolina team that has a really good defense. I mean, one of the best defenses in the league all season. And the Niners just made them look silly. And I know the defense played great, all of that stuff. But watching the misdirection, the levels of misdirection with that offense right now is just amazing.

I mean, every single play, there's a blocker coming across the formation. There's some sort of faked screen pass. and a throwback. There's a guy in the flat to pull a linebacker out. And after handing the ball off, Jimmy Garpo is actually faking passes to those guys. They're just so hard to defend right now. And I know that seems simplistic,

but it's like we talk about with Andy Reid. He just makes himself hard to play against. And that's what Kyle Shanahan is doing right now. I know the defense has really carried them, but this is an offense that's played without its two starting tackles without any sort of high-end receiver talent before last week when they got Emmanuel Sanders. And it's still one of the top 10 offenses in the NFL.

And I just think that it's a huge part of that is what they've been able to do with just playing with defenders' eyes, making you think the ball is somewhere else, and again, just making it really hard to play against them. Yeah, I mean, this is they're one of the stories of the season. And I'm excited to see them on Thursday night and primetime. I think it's not exactly the sexiest matchup.

But, you know, I think Kingsbury does enough things to where this will be a little bit interesting. I'm just excited to see the Niners when I have, you know, four hours just to focus on them, quite frankly. That's exactly what I was saying earlier today. They're just such a fun team to watch. I just get enjoyment on a football level from watching them do some of the things that they do. And I think tonight is going to be no exception. All right, here's my sneaky truth. First of all, I want to start with a stat.

It's from Rich Samini. Jets at Dolphins is the first game. the first game in which both teams enter with a negative 100 point differential or worse and both are fewer than eight games into the season. There is a case we made this is the worst game in history. Having said that, that is not my sneaky truth. My sneaky truth is defending the Jets. I'm ready to dunk on the Jets at all times.

Adam Gase is a bad coach. The Joe Douglas hire, the timing of it was bad because, I mean, look, they did the best they could in June when they're hiring a GM. but why would you let my county have another draft, another free agency after he'd already proven he couldn't handle that? Now, here's what happened. So, Jamal Adams, there's some calls about Jamal Adams. Jamal Adams does not like this.

He says, I'm on the Tom Brady level, I'm on the Aaron Donald level. They don't take calls about those guys. Here's my sneaky truth. They should take calls on those guys. Jamal Adams, even though he's not on that level, he's never gotten to a Super Bowl, played in a playoff game. I don't think most

people around the league. I think Jamal Adams is a hell of a player. Let me preface it with this. Jamal Adams is a great, great, great defensive back. Having said that, when you get to that level, I think now we understand that teams are just going to call. There's a price on a superstar. I mean,

Kallel Mack was traded. Jalen Ramsey was traded. I mean, Laramie Tunsell is not that, but he was worth two first round picks. Superstars are getting dealt in this league. And if you're the Rams and someone's says, hey, we won't talk about Aaron Donald. You should take that call because maybe it's four first round picks and

Patrick Mahomes are trying to throw at you. You don't know. I mean, I just think the idea that Jamal Adams thinks that you shouldn't entertain trade ideas for a great player in this day and age when people like Jill and Ramsey are on the move or Colomac is on the move. I understand it was a different situation because those guys wanted to move and wanted new deals or whatever. But I think that this is a new NFL where superstars can get dealt and someone like Jamel Adams certainly can get dealt.

If the Cowboys wanted to try to Godfather the offer, Godfather offer the Jets into training Jamal Adams, that's fine. Jamel Adams, it's a touch situation. He obviously doesn't like his boss right now. That's fine. But what I'm saying is, is it to say that you reach a point you're untouchable in the NFL is just not true. I'm with you.

I 100% agree. I think it's just silly to think that anybody is available for the right. Packers, that's just how it's going. And we've seen that. When Jaylon Ramsey can get traded, you can get traded. So it's how the sport works. It's how the league works more than ever. So no one should be surprised.

All right. I think that's all we got, buddy. It's Halloween. What are you being this year? What are you going on? I've been the same thing for 20 years. I throw Horace Grant goggles on and I'm just weekend Horace Grant. That's a fantastic move.

How about all these NFL players with these elaborate costumes? How do you feel about this? Well, the problem is that I'm... I just as athletes because I'm like a Belichick type. I need to be flexible at all times. right? So like, what if I had to go to a meeting right now and I'm dressed like as Batman? And so that's why you all you have, you have a, you have to have like a horse grand goggles. So it's just like one thing that makes the costume. Otherwise, you might get stuck in a bad

situation. And you're just like, oh, oh, like I have to do this thing. This news broke. I have to go in video. And I'm dressed as like, you know, the comedian Gallagher and I'm smashing. I have watermelon for some reason. I mean, I think that would be fantastic content, but that's just me. I haven't done Halloween in a really long time. I haven't done. any Halloween parties even on the weekend. It's just not something I've ever been into. I think I might try to do Halloween soon. Maybe one of these years.

I'll try to find a funny. I think you should probably do it tonight if you're going to do it. Don't do it like in two weeks. It is snowing here. So I will not be participating in Halloween. It has been snowing all day and I don't, it doesn't look like it's letting up anytime soon. I feel bad for the kids. But for me, I am going to sit on the couch, drink some hot chocolate and perhaps watch

a scary movie. The Cardinals defense. That's going to be on the top TV. I'm thinking more like midsummer on the bottom TV, but yes. All right. All right, guys. As always, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. We will be back Sunday night.

I can promise you.