The Ringer NFL Show - Brian Daboll Needs to Hit a Bull's-Eye With Jaxson Dart, With Pat Daugherty

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Sheil is joined by Pat Daugherty from NBC Sports to discuss the news of the Giants benching Russell Wilson for Jaxson Dart, and what it means for both QBs and HC Brian Daboll going forward. (00:00) Intro/cold open(2:38) How did the Giants get here?(6:09) What to expect from Jaxson Dart(10:57) Scenario 1: Dart is a revelation(13:40) Scenario 2: Dart is OK(15:57) Scenario 3: Dart is terrible(19:18) How many starts does Russell Wilson make for the rest of his career?(21:18) Who could be the Giants' next head coach?(24:26) The Hurry Up: Dallas after the Parsons trade The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Sheil KapadiaGuest: Pat DaughertyProducer: Chris SuttonSocial: Kiera Givens and Brian WatersProduction Supervision: Conor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm your host, Shield Capadia. We have our first, I think it's our first official quarterback benching of this season. Poor Russell Wilson. The Russell Wilson era in New York is over. What an era it was, but the Giants are going to rookie first round pick, Jackson Dart. Everyone saw this coming from a mile away, which is kind of a matter of when. And to talk about why the Giants are making this move now, what to expect from Dart.

I feel like there's some propaganda out there. So I feel like this is the perfect guy to cut through some of that. His name is Patrick Dardy, and he is from NBC Sports. I feel like Pat, you have a rare distinction in my life, at least, because that distinction is that you are actually funny on social media. I feel like I've been laughing at your tweets where we were just saying for probably like a decade now, but we've never potted together. So I'm very much looking forward to this.

I appreciate the kind words. I'm glad you think I'm funny because, boy, do I care about, trying to be funny. It's very important to me. So it would be a huge problem. Everyone's like, Pat, you got to stop with the jokes. They're not good. You got to stop.

Well, listen, sometimes you've got to be a volume shooter, you know, and some of them hit and some of them don't. So we'll see what the listeners think at the end of this. But let's take a break. We'll come back and we will talk Jackson Dart and the New York Giants. This is the Ringer NFL show presented by Fandul, and the NFL is officially back. So if you're going to be in it, be in it with Fandul. They've got the goods, futures, live betting, SGPs, Your Way bets, all of it.

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Must be 21 plus and present in select states. We're 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG dash help.com. Call 1-888-7897777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. Paid endorsement. All right, we're back on the ringer NFL show. Pat, I'm going to get us started here, okay, because I want to talk about just how they got here and what this is actually about and why now.

I think that's the big question. So I'm not an expert on many things, but I feel like I can recognize when an NFL coach is just launching himself into job preservation mode. And let's be honest. That's what this is. Brian Daiball is throwing a Hail Mary. The Giants are 0 and 3. They have one of the hardest remaining schedules in football. If they go five and 12 or whatever with Russell Wilson, you're getting fired.

It's an open and shut case. We don't have to look too much further. So now Daibald turns to plan B. Try to develop Jackson Dart, create some excitement, try to shape the narrative. You want people saying like, oh, man, Dart looks like he's showing something in this dayball system. You know, it doesn't even have to be perfect. It's just like, are there some moments? Are there some glimmers of hope?

Are there some highlights, maybe a sneaky upset here or there? So that's what this is about, right? Pat is just like, Daibald had one chance to save his job. You had one last card to play, and that's why he's going to Jackson Dart here. Yeah, you said it's the first benching. We knew the Giants would be the first something, and they were very frequently in the conversation for who will be the first team to fire their head coach? The Dolphins and Mike McDaniel, or the Giants and Brian Daibald, those were kind of the two,

quote, contenders. And Brian Daibald decided, instead of winning that race, you know, might as well at least win the benching my quarterback race and Russell Wilson, you know, kind of the perfect. a guy to throw under the bus. And you say like, why now? Why are they do this now other than the obvious reason to save his job? And I think you could argue

after watching that game Sunday night. The Giants didn't even make this decision. This decision was just made for them. And I know that in the media we can get carried away with this kind of stuff, but if you watch watching that, there was like a heavy sense that they don't do something to

change up this mojo and the easiest something is always to bench the quarterback. it could be like the classic like you were losing the locker room like Malik neighbors he's an alpha wide receiver they're never particularly happy but Malik didn't appear to be loving life on Sunday night

and just too the way it ended like those two series I believe it was two series in the red zone and you know you get the read option that Russell Wilson I know they called a read option let's be real it was actually a handoff like you're not to keep her there

like that ground out the back of the end zone and then putting an exclamation point on things with that pass, that fourth down pass that hit the field goal pole? That's hard to do that. You know, if you ask Patrick Mahomes to do that this week and, hey,

you know, it's not that thick of a, you know, bar there. So Russell Wilson, maybe it was just a challenge. Maybe it was a dare from someone on the team. I love that you brought up neighbors. It was like, that was the fastest I've seen a wide receiver be frustrated. It was like the first quarter of the first game and he was yelling

at Brian Dave on the sidelines. He was like, I'm not having a season like this again. So I think you're right. I think everybody, you know, you're right. Russell Wilson is the perfect scapego because he's like, you know, he's kind of an annoying guy. Coaches don't really, this stage of his career. You know, coaches don't really like him. He's trying to be rah, raw, and positive. And that works when you're really good. And I almost feel like his career. I want to get to that at the end. But it's almost like people do probably forget how good Russell Wilson was in his prime with the way this is finishing. But yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It was just that time for the Giants.

And so now we look at Jackson Dart and we say, what are reasonable expectations here? And I've kind of looked at this statistically over the years, like how rookie quarterbacks typically perform. And it's usually like the 25th or 26th best quarterback in the NFL. You know, it sounds crazy to say. But it's like, that's an average rookie season is you're the 25th or 26th best starter. So Jackson Dart comes in, 25th overall pick,

started a lot of games in college, 41 games at Ole Miss. And it's like I feel like day ball is now going to have to say, all right, let's cater this offense to kind of what he did in college. Let's use his legs. Let's hit on some deep shots. But kind of what do you think are reasonable expectations for Jackson Dard here the rest of the way? Well, first off, I think Giants fans, expectations, you know, need to include the very

unfortunate possibility that things actually could get worse than they were under Russell Wilson. Say what you will about Russ. I mean, they were in all three of those games. They had the shootout in week two. They played super poorly and still almost beat the defending AFC titles, Kansas City Chiefs. And Jackson Dart had a prolific college career. You know, it was a simplistic offense.

He's kind of a one-reed guy. He's kind of, there's a reason he was taking, you know, in the Kenny Pickett zone of the draft and wasn't a lottery pick because I think that says even the Giants, you know, weren't necessarily sold on him as a franchise quarterback. They're sold that he maybe as franchise upside. If they truly believe that, they would have taken him at number three overall and not just traded back into the first round. So this is a high variance pick.

He's a very volatile player. But whereas it could get worse, we knew it wasn't going to get better with Russell Wilson. Things actually could get better. He has an exciting skill set. He likes to throw down field. He likes to call his own number. I would say maybe a little too frequently. Yeah, watch out.

He might take some shots. He's not a bad athlete, but he's not like an elite athlete. And I thought he ran kind of a lot. But, you know, he's tough. He's got, we already saw him kind of embracing like the Taysom Hill role a little bit. And I think that is where Giants fans like need to park themselves. Like it could get worse, but we knew it wasn't getting better before. Like a playoff season, a winning season is probably not attainable.

Of course, excitement though is now attainable. And hopefully, like easily attainable because he is an exciting young. prospect despite the downside and volatility. I love the Kenny Pickett zone. Where does that start? Is that at like 14 or I'm going to say, I'm stealing that. I'm just letting you know. Please do. Because I've been I've been hammering that one this off season, by the way, trying to make it a thing. So if you want to embrace it too, I didn't say around 12 or 13. 12. Okay, yeah, outside the top 10, but 11 feels too close. Yeah, I like that. 12 to the 32 in the first round. You're in the Kenny Pickett zone. We kind of like you.

we don't like you enough to take you in the top 10. Who knows? Football's hard. Quarterback evaluation is weird. Maybe we'll get lucky here. Yeah, that's kind of the area of the draft that they took him. So we'll see what it looks like. Yeah, I think they're going to, like you said, I think they're going to simplify it. You know, it's not like he's got to be going through all his reads.

And he doesn't need like the film grinders to be like, oh, my gosh, he got to the facts I dig here. Like, he needs to be chucking it downfield. He needs to be running. He needs to be scrambling. He needs to be avoiding negative plays. He needs to be sparing. Hamming targets some Malik neighbors. Like, if I'm a rookie quarterback on that team, I'm just like, if Malik Neighbors is the first

raid, I'm probably just going to throw it to him and see if he comes down with it. So I think that's what it looks like. But I think you did a good job of resetting the expectations because you're right. Like Russell Wilson, if you just look at the nerd stats like EPA per pass play, he was 18th through three weeks. You know, he had one very good game where they were bombing away against the Dallas Cowboys. now it wasn't a great three-game stretch, but like 18 is actually a hard bar to clear

for a rookie quarterback. So yes, it could get worse, but to your point, I can't imagine. I wonder if there's like a columnist or just anyone in New York was making the case, like they should have stuck with Russ. Like how good that? I actually don't, I think that's one take. I don't think there's anybody in America making the case, right? Should I,

maybe I should have done that on this podcast. This is ridiculous. They should have stuck with Russell Wilson. Yeah, there's a lot of contrarian takes that are layups these days. That's like an old school economist. Like that's when you're writing in the actual paper level contrarian take. I don't think anyone's bold enough to do that. This is disrespectful to a Super Bowl champ.

How could they do this to Russell Wilson? So, yeah, I don't think anyone's making that argument. All right, let's take a break. When we come back, Pat, I've got three ways where I think this could potentially play out. And I want to get your take on those three potential scenarios. All right. we're back on the Ringer NFL ship. So I'm going to give you the three scenarios and you tell me which one you want to start with,

okay? Scenario number one is dart looks completely overmatched and is terrible. Like this thing's just a disaster. That's scenario one. Scenario two, Dart's like okay. As I said, he performs like an average rookie. He has some ups and downs, but it's like, all right, maybe there's something there. He's not terrible.

And then three is, Dart is a revelation. Like, he's just really good. Which one of these three do you want to discuss first? What order do you want to go in? Well, start from three, because I feel like that's the least likely, and we'll go backwards. All right. We're being nice. He wants to be nice to you, Giants fan.

So he says, let's start with three. Dart is a revelation. So the case here, I think, is just that the hardest thing to predict in the NFL is how rookie quarterbacks are going to perform. We see that year in, year out, everybody's so confident with their draft takes. And then the guys actually play. And it's like, okay, a lot of those were very wrong. So he's got Malik neighbors.

Andrew Thomas. is coming back at left tackle, maybe DART injects some energy into the team. You know, everybody's like, all right, this is kind of exciting. That's the dream. And I'm with you. It's possible. It's unlikely, but it's possible. So how realistic does that feel to you?

It just doesn't feel very realistic because, you know, we got so used to quarterbacks kind of hitting the ground running. We had that quarterback golden age where the Brady Manning breeze years where all the veterans were producing, like, well beyond, like, where players used to produce ages, that is. New quarterbacks were coming in, just hitting the ground running, having 300-yard games, right out of the gate, you know, the Justin Herbert years, which already five or six years ago somehow. But we've just seen a turn.

And I feel like the past five seasons where even the revelatory rookie years aren't revelatory anymore, like, C.J. Stroud, like, we thought he was amazing. And then, you know, what is going on with him? The past 18 starts. And it just seems like in response to that passing golden age, like defenses aren't just getting more complicated. They're getting like exponentially more complicated every year. And it just seems like a really difficult time to be a young passer, a young quarterback right now, especially if you're not an elite runner.

And he is a good athlete. I just don't think he's an elite runner. And I just feel like for a genuine blue chip prospect, it's so hard to be that revelatory rookie right now. And I, despite having upside, I just don't think, you know, he's a genuine blue chip prospect, and I think it'll be very, very hard to get the revelation that saves everyone in the Giants' organization's job.

Yeah, I think that would be surprising. Again, possible. We could be wrong, but not the most likely scenario. All right, so that's the third one. The second one, DART is okay. He performs like an average rookie. So this is just, you know, he flashes, he has some ups and downs like rookies usually do.

There are moments of excitement. There are weeks where he just looks completely overmatched. And I kind of think this is the most interesting scenario because what is the bar to clear for Brian Daibald to keep his job? I don't know. I know you do a great job with like coach rankings and GM rankings. And I feel like Dayball is very good at manipulating the media a little bit or like shaping the narrative. Like I'm even seeing it with this move like, day ball's been working with him, you know, in the summer. And these guys have like fiery personalities. And I'm like, all right, let's see what this looks like before we go overboard here. And I think

is it just like if they go let's say I don't know 5 and 12 6 and 11 but he shows some flashes is there a chance that that could be enough for him to keep his job or do you think Giants ownership is going to be like sorry you're going to have to do better than that I think it's the sorry because

so listen Brian Dable's been on the job three years he's won three games six games and nine games those are normal win totals for a coach's first three years on the job what is not normal is that you begin at 9 then go to six, then go to three. Usually you're three, you're six, and then you're nine. And so to me, kind of no matter what happened this year,

like seven, eight wins, this wasn't going to be enough for Brian Daible to save his job. Nine or ten, this doesn't feel attainable to me. And I feel like he's almost like damned if he does, damned if he doesn't at this point. Because even if Jackson Dart shows promise, you know, the narrative is probably going to be, I think, understandably, like, okay,

we got this promising young rookie quarterback, Daibel, we gave him four years. He just didn't show enough. We cannot screw up Jackson Dart. It's someone else's turn to come in here and do this. And I just think the way his beginning was sequenced kind of dooms him because I just don't think seven or eight wins saves Brian Daibler's job.

And I don't see how they get to nine or ten wins. Yeah, if it's seven or eight, it would have to be, Dart looks amazing. And it feels really clear that, like, Dayball is responsible. Like, Darts like, like, Daveol's my guy. And like, yeah, you know, they have, like,

it feels like there's something there. That's kind of the scenario he's looking at. Okay, so then scenario number one, DART looks completely overmatched and is terrible. And we can't discount this possibility because this is an organization that just doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Again, I've read stuff today about Dayball's plan,

and I'm just kind of like laughing. Like, their plan was to return 10 of 11 starters to an offense that stunk and go with Russell Wilson. You know, and this is an off-season where their jobs are on the line. I don't think they had a great plan. I don't think they have a great plan. And if you mentioned day ball's win totals, like if you look at it,

204 coaches have coached at least 50 games in the NFL. He is 186th in win percentage. This has not gone well. And it's not just day ball. Like the organization I'm talking about benefit of the doubt. The last 10 years, you know how many teams have won fewer games than the New York Giants? Oh my gosh.

Give me a guess. Well, I'm going to guess low now. Yeah, I know. Bad setup I make. Three, three. One. One. The New York Jets are the only team in the last 10 years that has won fewer games than the New York Giants.

So that Jaguars win last week was big because it put them over the giants in this 10-year thing that only I care about. But you know what? I'm tracking it. So good job by you, Jaguars. So you look at all this. And then does Daniel Jones play a factor in this? You know, especially for ownership. You're looking at this going, all right, we couldn't.

do anything with this guy. We stunk. And now he's in Indianapolis and their offense is going up and down the field. So like, you add all those things up. And I just, like, there is a chance this goes very poorly for them. There is. And I think the Jones thing does play into it. Because I think the giants, even New York giants, like, they understood that Seyquan Barclay was probably going to look better when they let him go. I don't think they were ready for 2,000 yards and instantly winning the Super Bowl. But I think they understood, you know, he was just going to look better because it was not a great situation. Daniel Jones, I think the Giants probably sold to themselves, like, listen, like this wasn't our fault. Like, we gave this guy a pretty long leash and it just didn't work.

It just wasn't meant to be. It's a bit much then for even Daniel Jones to go, oh, now they're three and oh, he's a guy who could barely get the seven yards for attempt in New York is averaging over nine yards for attempt every game. It's a not like it's an elite skill core. Like, it's a better skill core, but we didn't think it was this much better than our skill core. and Daniel Jones is still doing this. And like, though, the problem really is us. We've been putting off this full-scale rebuild for so long. We're giving guys extra years.

Brian Dable probably did not deserve an extra year. We're giving the front office an extra year. And we're trying to be patient. But wow, like, we just messed up. We really underestimated how much change there needs to be. And that is a very plausible outcome in New York. Yeah, so the Daniel Jones thing is so hard to explain because if you're like, it's the coaching.

It's like, you know, Stike and soon as a much better. job than Dayball. Like Joe Shane might be whispering that to John Mara. And then Daibald's like, look at his supporting cast. You know, it's not the coaching. He's just in a much better situation than I have been in here. It's one or the other. Like, it's got to be one or the other.

And again, it's only three games. We don't expect him to play like that the rest of the season. But yeah, I do think that's the type of thing that certainly gets ownership's attention. All right. Last couple things I want to end on here. Over under Russell Wilson starts the rest of his career. So he's 37 years old. went from Denver to Pittsburgh to the Giants.

I will put it at 10 games. He starts the rest of his career. Over or under and how do you think this plays out? I might push on 10 because 10 sounds good to me. I've learned, as you have definitely learned, that it's hard to kill these guys. People with reputations, people with track records. Carson Wins is now a starter in Minnesota.

And not just a starter, people kind of whispering like, listen, man, he's probably going to be better than J.J. McCarthy was. Listen, when I said this is the first QB benching, I was like, I don't know, Pat might want to break a conspiracy. He's been reading those same tweets that I've been reading that are we sure that they're not just going to Carson Wentz? So, yeah, who knows?

Well, I got a little more suspicious when Tracy Wilson had a sideline report about how healthy J.J. McCarthy was. But when you see Carson Wentz getting another start, you know, Joe Flacco, like really, he was as close to out of the league as you could possibly be. Three years in a row where he's making meaningful starts where Russ, Russ has got the extra problem.

Like coaches kind of don't love having him around, like you said. But it's hard to get rid of these guys. And 10 sounds good to me because he's not young. He's not quite as old as you might think. I'm pushing on your projection of 10 more Russell Wilson starts. It sort of feels like he could get a backup role, you know, and if a guy gets injured, does that for a couple of years, that could maybe get you to 10.

I don't know that he's going to get another opportunity to even be in like a quarterback competition. But it could be wrong. You mentioned that Joe Flacco is starting in the year 2025. All right. Last thing. I went, you know, I can't help myself. Sometimes I like to look far ahead and start speculating.

And so let's say it doesn't go great for Brian Davell. This is his last year as the Giants head coach. I just, I took like 12 seconds. And I'm like, who are names that pop into my head as potentially the next Giants coach. And I just wanted to throw them out there to you if there's one where you're like, ooh, I could see that. Okay, you ready for this? I'm right. Here we go. Mike Tomlin,

Kevin Stefansky, Jesse Minter, the Chargers defensive coordinator, Steve Spagnolo, Cliff Kingsbury, Brian Flores, and finally, Nick Saban. I had to. It popped in my head.

What do you want for me? I had to, all right, do any of those when I mentioned their name, you're like, ooh, yeah, I could I could totally see that one. You had to throw Sabin in there because I think Belichick has removed himself from the running. Yeah, he's gone. I thought about it. I'm like, no, no one's, I don't think anybody's hiring him.

And this, I think the Giants, so the Giants are, they're the worst kind of dysfunctional organization because they so badly want to be functional. Like you can see it. Like, they think they're above being dysfunctional because it kind of work for a lot of their history. So they've done all these half measures. Again, they're taking quarterbacks in the picket zone. they want to appear stable.

So they're giving Brian Dable an extra year, a guy who just didn't deserve an extra year. I think they might, kind of like my St. Louis Cardinals, kind of like maybe what you're seeing with the Pittsburgh Steelers, they've kicked the can down the road on a true reset for so long that I think they're going to do like

the full, like true, kind of blow it up, truly reset. And none of those names struck me as like the guy you want to read. Maybe Nick Saban, if you're five years younger. I think they're going to go, the tried and true recent route, and they're trying to find the next McVay. And I didn't hear like a next McVay on that list.

But I think they're either starting with a really young potential mastermind or like a really established name brand. I didn't hear that there. There's not a great next McVe that I can think. I feel like Jesse Minter defensively may be the closest thing to that with the charges if he keeps coaching like this. So maybe that's a name to keep an eye on. I looked at Tomlin and at this season, and I've been saying this for like five years. and I'm wrong every year. So, yeah, Tomlin's probably not going anywhere.

But I was like, if they're just like, we're sick of this, to your point, we're sick of the half measures. Let's get someone who we know is a good coach. And there's an opportunity. I know Tomlin's the Steelers head coach right now. I'm saying a lot of things can happen this year. That's one that I could at least see in my head. And then Spags, I could see it for the PR. They're just like, all right, we suck for 10 years.

But remember before that, when we were winning Super Bowl, this guy, and everybody loves him and the media loves him. And he seems like a great guy. Players love him. He's coming back and we're going to fix this thing the right way. Say, I don't know. Maybe those are wrong names. I'll update this list weekly. Tomlin was a really good poll, actually, I should say.

Tomlin, you think, though, would maybe want to go to more like shovel-ready situation. I don't know if he'll regard the Giants as like, because I don't know if he wants to mess around with a rebuild. Because he's been in a quasi, like fake rebuild, very similar to the Giants in Pittsburgh's. Maybe that doesn't appeal to him. But he can also be like a savior, you know? That might be like, I'm going to come save the New York Giants. Yeah. appeals to a lot of coaches. All right. Bad to Hardy, this was a lot of fun. Check him out on NBC

Sports. I will be back in a minute with The Hurry Up. All right, the hurry up is our closing segment where I give you a take on news in the NFL. And I'm going to take the layup today. The Cowboys host the Packers on Sunday night. Michael Parsons makes his return to Dallas. And Jerry Jones did his weekly radio appearance on 105.3 of the fan on Tuesday. He talked about the Parsons trade saying he He doesn't regret the timing, mention the run defense once again as a reason for the move. So I thought, all right, now is a good time to do a little check-in on how things are going. We are three games in. The Cowboys are one and two.

Their defense ranks 32nd in DVOA, 31st in EPA per drive, and they are 25th in success rate against the run. One of the worst defenses, if not the worst defense in the NFL through three games. So that's on the defensive side of the ball obviously applies, relates to Michael Parsons. Meanwhile, offensively, C.D. Lamb is out for this game and could be placed on injured reserve. And the Cowboys are down to starting offensive linemen. The Packers go into Dallas as six and a half point road favorite. So we know anything can happen. And the Cowboys offense hasn't looked bad.

But man, this just feels like it is setting up for Parsons to be a complete game wrecker and for Dallas to get embarrassed. So maybe I'll be wrong and the Cowboys will find ways to neutralize them and their own defense will show signs of life. But nothing we've seen through three weeks suggests that's the most likely scenario. The season started bad for Dallas with the Parsons trade. And if they fall to one in three and get embarrassed at home and Parsons has a big game, it's going to feel like a low point already. And we're still in September. Again, maybe it won't play out that way.

And the Cowboys will surprise and Jerry will get to brag afterwards. but the most likely scenario is that it gets ugly in Dallas on Sunday night. All right, appreciate everyone listening. Thank you to Christopher Sutton for producing Kira Givens on social, additional production supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgapal. We'll be back tomorrow on the Ringer NFL show. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming.

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