The Ringer NFL Show - Bruce Arians's Retirement, Lamar’s Extension, and the State of the Patriots

Episode Date: March 31, 2022

Kevin, Nora, and Kaelen react to the news of Bruce Arians retiring and what it means for Todd Bowles and the Bucs, Lamar Jackson’s extension, and Robert Kraft’s recent comments. Then they are joined by Steven Ruiz to talk about how the Bucs will look under Todd Bowles and their chances in the NFC this year. Host: Kevin Clark, Nora Princiotti, and Steven Ruiz Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For as long as I've known the NBA, it's been a Stars League. But even among the Stars, there's an exclusive club. Russell and Dr. Jay, Jordan, Kobe. They're all part of a select group that paved the way for the NBA superstar of today. And some even shared secrets with each other along the way. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Jackie McMullen. And this is the Icons Club. It is the ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network.

I'm Kevin Clark, joined on a newsy Thursday by Nora Prince. I mean, Nora, hello. Hi, Kevin. What's going on? Not much. I'm very proud of you as you have diversified your sports interests into Formula One. I don't feel like we've gotten to pods since the big pod was catching on fire. It exceeded our expectations.

We now are doing more pods. on the Formula One side. I'm really excited about that. But the good news is because of the way the schedule works, I don't have to change anything about what we do on this great league and this great pod. Kalyn Jones just asked me how fancy NASCAR became popular. He was referencing Formula One. There's a lot that goes into that.

I'm still learning. I'm learning about everyone's interest. I will jump into it at some point. But yeah, congrats on your pod, Kevin. seriously like it's it's definitely the sport itself is taken off and I assume the pod will similarly follow suit so well maybe the pod took off first

you ever think about that oh oh never thought about it no I don't think that's what I actually just thought about it and that's not true it is super duper not true all right I thought it being a little too nice to you yeah yeah yeah I decided to go overboard on it a little too high on the Apple charts

there for for two weeks and now you guys need to take me down a peg. So let's get to it. Let's start taking me down a peg. We have a couple of things to get to. We will start with the news. So I actually did know. I was at the owner's meetings for three days.

I didn't know if we're going to have anything to talk about coming out of the owners meetings. There were a couple of things. We get to it. Robert Kraft's comments on Bill Belichick, sorry, on the Patriots and kind of that team this year were interesting to me. Lamar Jackson's contract situation that Steve Boshati spoke about was interesting to me.

But then on Wednesday night, a legitimate bombshell dropped. Peter King and Sam Farmer reported that Bruce Ariens is stepping down. He's going to the front office of the Bucks. Todd Bowles is the new coach. The team, according to Rick Stroud, who covers the Bucks, insists it is not related to Tom Brady's decision. My counter to that is I'm not a moron. And there's a lot to get to.

Nora, when you first heard this news, you thought what? I thought, that pesky Tom Brady. just look at him build the world you want to live in up around you and bask in its glory it just

what Tom Brady wants he seems to be able to manifest into existence fairly effectively it makes me very curious to know what other meetings took place when

Tom Brady went to that Manchester United game other than his on-field Rinaldo meeting. I will say that. I agree. By the way, we're going to have Stephen Ruiz on later to do an in-depth breakdown of what the offense could look like this year with area it's gone. Obviously, Barry McGrath was still there.

Brady had more saying it. We'll get to that a little bit later. Kalin, I mean, I don't, sorry. To me, the idea that, you know, first of all, Stroud also reported that Brady knew about this the day that he came back and all that stuff. Like, to me, did he report anything after, at first, the language of that reporting was, Tom Brady was informed Bruce Ariens planned to step down and Todd Wals

would succeed him as head coach either the same day or a day after the quarterback announced he was ending his first. The most incredible coincidence of all time is that Bruce Ariens was also with Cristiana Ronaldo that day on the other side of the field saying, you know what, I think it's about time I hang it up. Just what an incredible coincidence that Bruce Ariens decided to retire. on the same day that Tom Brady decided he was going to return.

There's been some reporting around this. Ariens quotes are that, you know, everybody gets cussed out. What you're sitting to me. I've actually talked to Ariens about this back when he was at Arizona. Ariens did not go to his media availability just because we get the owner's meetings. He got a stomach bug. I saw him very briefly. I don't know him really.

And so I didn't connect with him or stop him or ask him anything about it. Um, but I, I, I, I've actually, um, when I was Arizona, when he was there, I did a story about this. And he, he deeply believes in, in destroying everybody, and ripping everybody a new one. And then, and then his, his phrasing is hug them, hug them later. Um, and I think that that actually tends to work with Tom Brady. Like, Tom Brady, I think that, I think it was with Bill O'Brien, Nora. He said that he wanted to be coached hard, coach me hard. And so I don't think it's a temper, thing. I don't think Tom Brady didn't want to be yelled at. And I think there was some, I think the

language on that was kind of weird in that reporting. I think it was probably just more a couple of different situations, maybe some offensive issues, put them the Antonio Brown thing, how the locker room was handed. But I think it was more a big picture norm. If anything, I mean, I think there's, there's a difference between getting chewed out in private and shoot out in public. I can see some of the ways in which Brouserians tends to, you know, get up to a podium and say, Tom Brady screwed that up, that definitely could have rubbed him the wrong way. The thing that I think is curious is that if there was a temperament issue, I think it's actually kind of the opposite. Like, sure Bruce Ariens loves to, you know, he loves to rib people. He, by his own admission,

chews out all of his players on a fairly regular basis. He's still kind of this like, boisterous, friendly, let's go hang out on the golf course and have a few drinks kind of dude. Like, fundamentally, if either Bruce Ariens or Tom Brady is a more intense dude, Tom Brady is the more intense of the two. And I'm not sure that he loved everything about the environment switch from New England to Tampa. I think he loved a lot of things about it. But I think there were a few things. just in terms of the emphasis on discipline

that maybe he felt like we're missing. I think that's what makes Bulls a good fit, right? He's more of a disciplinarian defensive coach, more tight, like it's not going to be as loose of an environment under Todd Bulls as it was under Brouserians. And maybe that, you know, and encourage, you know, Brady to stay. I'm still convinced Kevin that was, you know,

we talk about the Rinaldo meeting. Really, it was Tottenham Hotspur, that we can blame for everything blowing up with the Tansbyy buccaneers this off season. Let's not let Tottenham Hotspur get strays in this podcast. It's only minute seven. Yeah, I mean, what's the outlook now for the bucks? I mean, I don't think that this changes much.

I mean, really with Ariens, Ariens was the point, man, the buck stops with him, all that stuff. But you think about a guy like Tom Brady, and I think about kind of the Peyton Manning genre of quarterback. At some point, Peyton Manning was the coach of the Broncos. At some point, Tom Brady

was just the coach of the box. And I know that that, you know, press conference and all that stuff, I mean, people talk about how Peyton just literally run the practices in the offensive side of the ball. And I think Byron Left,

which has been a very good offensive coordinator, but I think that Tom Brady runs himself at this point in some things. So I think that the fact that Todd Bowles, defensive coach, big picture guy. I love this hire. I think firing left, which would have been an awesome head coach candidate as well.

I'm glad, by the way, that firing left which didn't take the Jacksonville job because obviously that's a complete mess and you don't want to look at Trent Balky. But having said that, I mean, I don't think that this changes anything. If anything, it helps about the bucks being NFC contenders. Because if anything, it helps,

because if there were lingering issues between area and Brady, get them out of the way. He's going to get along with Bulls. He obviously has a great relationship with Leftwich. Like this, to me, the Bucks were contenders yesterday in the NFC and the still contenders, Matt. What do you think, Kailen? Yeah, no, I agree with you.

I think that especially when you consider the pathway through their own division, you know, had the Saints maybe upgraded quarterback, maybe, you know, be singing a different tune. But, you know, when you look at the Buccaneers, they should be able to, one, win the division. And then two, you know, be strongly competitive in the NFC. Like you said, if they, there were any lingering concerns or issues between Ariens and Brady,

the fact that Ariens is now at the building, you allow Brady to have that autonomy to do whatever he wants offensively. Like you said, he has a good relationship with Left Witch. I was kind of, like, concerned at first when, you know, my first initial thought when they gave the job the Bulls was why not Left Witch, but then, like you said, Brady kind of gets to run the show. There is no, you know, bickering back and forth, potentially,

where you have your office, your head coach saying, hey, Tom Brady was the one who messed this up. It'll just be Todd Bulls answering for whatever happened on the defensive side of football. So I think it's a strong move. I think that it gives them a chance to really push for, you know, competing for another Super Bowl. I know people are going to bring up the Peyton Manate thing.

Oh, we had John Fox. Yeah, exactly. Do you think John Fox? I'm like, John Fox. I mean, Gary Kubiak is actually a good coach. But Peyton Manning, and by the way, the 2015 team, and that was also Wade Phillips. So there were a lot of, you know, the whole thing, victory has many fathers.

There were a lot of things that went into that 2015 Broncos team, but Peyton Manning running team for four years, that's nothing to do with that. Nora, Bucks, 2022. Yeah, I think there's nothing that should make them less competitive about this and arguably the seamlessness with which it seems like they can operate just with Aaron sort of out of the way, any sort of tension with Brady out of the way. I think all of that makes sense. The other thing is good for Todd Bowles.

Like, I think he deserves this opportunity. It's rare that we see a minority head coach step into what I would call a pretty good situation, right? And that's really nice. Like, he's inheriting a good team. I think the bucks are full of crap in how they're talking about why it happened. But that doesn't really matter. I think he totally deserves this opportunity. And it's really good that he got it.

I agree. The stat here is that the Bucks have had four black head coaches since they were founded in 1976. Via Chalice Manzi Young, or Ziyahu. There are 13 teams who have never had a single black head coach. Todd Bulls is the fourth one in Tampa Bay. A lot of those teams are a lot older than the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Yeah. Well, hopefully, Chalice has a list here. The Giants were founded in 2025, the Washington Football. team were founded in 1932 and the Rams were 1937. So there you go. Yeah, that's the thing like with Ariens leaving. One, he was such a great ambassador, not just for black coaches, but also for women. Obviously, Jen Welter. And I believe there were two women who are currently on the buck staff right now. My question is like, who's going to be that ambassador now amongst the white coaches for

promoting diversity, integrity within the coaching ranks? Obviously, we have the addendum to the Rooney role that just recently got put into effect, which is, I think, a positive step putting in the idea that, you know, you have an offensive assistant position dedicated to a minority group. But at the same time, I'm very curious to see, like, which coach is willing to take on that mantle because you look at that Buccaneer staff page. If you go online right now, it looks like a football team. There's a lot of black people. There's a lot of white people. And there's a few women in there, which is really cool to see. And I'm really curious to see which coach, you know, over the next year or two or in the future,

is the next to be that person to forward the diversity conversation amongst the coaching ranks. Because it's really important, and I think it's a really big part of Bruce Ariens' legacy, and I don't expect the stop within the Buckingier, especially now that he's a part of the, I believe he's taking on the senior advisory role

within the front office. During his press conference today, he was like, I don't know what my title means. I don't know what he was saying. I don't have... in other Brouserians as confused as anyone? I don't have a ton of faith in Brouseran's contributions in the front office this year. That's my, I'm not sure he's going to be locked in.

A lot of golfing? A lot of golfing. A lot of hanging out. Yeah. A lot of Tampa. A lot of Tampa. A lot of just hanging out in Tampa. I mean, look, if you're going to get kind of like stabbed in the back by Tom Brady, the least they can do is create a soft landing spot for the fall. and it at least seems as though. Like, let's just spell it out here. This, because this is the, this is the source of the skepticism, right?

It's like, Tom Brady, I know we're making a lot of a soccer game, of Tom Brady attending one soccer game. But he does so as the guest of the Glazer family, which owns both teams. Presumably, there was some opportunity for a meeting with the coaching staff there. Oh, sorry, with ownership there.

suddenly he unretires. Todd Bulls says that, said that Bruce Ariens called him on Monday of this week. And then on Tuesday was when he no-showed the coach's breakfast. I mean, I guess he was sick. It just all seems a little on the nose.

Like, come on, guys. Who are we getting? The reporting that was out there that Ariens wanted to ensure that Bulls had a good team to return to. It had a good opportunity, a good team when he first took over the job makes no sense whatsoever. I don't, I even wanted to delve into that. We, we kind of know what happens.

Nora, I want to ask you, like, that doesn't, so if he would have never gotten the job, if Brady hadn't come and come back, it would have just been like, go, go find another job. Like, there's so many logical fallacies that within that particular reporting, that I kind of don't even want to delve into it. All I know is, here's my, here's my take. If you, when you retire on March 30th from a coaching job, you'd already committed to coming back, to and it's not health related, not scandal related.

I can definitively say things are weird. That's it. You saw the comparisons to LeBron, who's changed coaches before, and there are some people saying, okay, well, he's at Belichick's never had to think about changing coaches before. Was Belichick keeping him from being the type of player who says, I want to make a coaching change?

Like, if he'd played his 20 years elsewhere, would he have done this earlier at some point? was, I mean, being away from Belichick just seems like a completely new experience for him, obviously because it is. Do you think he gets really frustrated with coaches at the point that he wants to make a coaching change and that New England was just keeping that side of his personality from coming out? No, I don't actually. I think Tom Brady, it actually took him kind of a shockingly long amount of time to

internalize that he's different from other players. Like really, if you talk to a lot of people in New England and just having been around there towards the sort of tail end of this, it was the comeback Super Bowl against the Falcons and the aftermath of that that really flipped a little bit of a switch for him where he started feeling like, okay, you know what? I have been one of 53 for a long time. And that's made sense.

and that's probably been to the benefit of myself and our team and everyone around us. But that stretches the bounds of imagination at this point after all of the Super Bowls and just such a storied career and a dynasty that was going into what could have been a second separate dynasty. And that was when you saw him start to say, no, like, I, I'm allowed to talk about my business interests. I'm allowed to make that a part of my life that does kind of touch my, you know, my day job. And that created a lot of tension. I'm not saying it was the only source of tension.

I'm not saying that there wasn't ever tension between Brady and Belichick or any other coach before that. But he was a surefire hall of famer long before he started thinking of himself as a different case than most. NFL players. So I think what we're talking about is a conversation that really only happens around late stage Tom Brady, clear goat Tom Brady, goaded many times over Tom Brady. Now, there is a piece within that where he is a person who is very, very conscious of anything that is a perceived slight. He has been that way, I've got to imagine since he was a child, certainly since he was in college. long before he was in the NFL.

So those two things interact with each other a little bit. But I don't think, I think some of this is only with the knowledge that he just isn't like other NFL players. All right. Kayla, anything else on this before we move on? No, I mean, like you guys said, it is curious timing. I was inclined to believe this was a, you know, a transition of a, the idea that you're going to hand over a good team to a coach who has dealt with,

I think, what was it, the Gino Smith era with the Jets? So from that perspective, I want to believe what they're saying. And maybe there is some truth with that. But like you guys are saying, the timeline just isn't adding up when you put everything in focus. All right, let's move quickly to Tom Brady's former team, which is not as good as they used to be. because Tom Prady doesn't play there anymore, but the coach is still there. So Robert Kraft talked to reporters two days ago,

and he said that I basically, listen, Robert Kraft is always going to be blunt, he's going to be honest, he's had been one of the best donors in sports for two decades. So he basically suggested, and not in any dramatic way, I'm not trying to clickbait anybody here, but he just said he's not happy with things going,

how things are going. his quote was, I'm a big Patriot fan, big time, first. More than anything, it bothers me that we haven't been able to win a playoff game in the last three years. After my family, there's nothing more important to me than the New England Patriots and winning football games. That's my passion. And then he said, basically, he's glad they had a good draft last year, but they need that the way to sustain things is the draft basically suggested that the free agency, the spending we saw last year, isn't going to be, shouldn't be the mode of operation going

forward. Norah, when you saw these comments, I mean, listen, anybody with eyes can see that it's not as good as it was when Tom Brady was there. That's fine. Are you surprised at the tone of these comments? Not really. No. But when you alluded

to the fact that we were going to talk about this at the top, you said Bob Kraft's comments about Bill Belichick and then said, well, not about Bill Belichick. It was a phrase. They're about Bill Belichick. He's talking about Bill. And Bill Belichick is, you know, this team right now does not have an offensive coordinator. It does not have a defensive coordinator, at least in title.

Bill is in the front office. He is the head coach. The buck stocks stops with him completely. And one place where you can see two different philosophies of how to accurately analyze the state of the New England Patriots is a couple of times in the last couple of years, which have been leaner than most. when Bill has been asked about the change in results, he kind of calls scoreboard a little bit. Like when they lost the Titans in 2019, somebody asked him what his message to fans was.

And right. I think the phrasing was like, fans who've been with you through thick and thin. And Bill goes, we appreciate our fans. I wouldn't say it's been all that thin around here personally. Maybe you feel differently. And in 2020,

there was one where he said, I'm not going to apologize for our record over the last 20 years. I've seen a lot worse. So I think that kind of tells you where Bill stands as far as, hey, can I catch a break? Like, I know it hasn't been as good for a couple years, but seriously, you're going to criticize me for my record. And what Bob Kraft is kind of saying is, heck yes, I'm going to. You've set a standard where not winning a playoff game in three years is a significant departure. and I'm not happy about it. So does that mean that Bill Belichick is on the hot seat?

Absolutely not. But it's a criticism and there's no one else who it could be a criticism. Well, the thing is, like, over that three-year stretch, too. I was going to say, like, over that three-year stretch, too, like, in addition to not being able to produce the same results, like when you look at that staff, I mean, there hasn't been many changes,

especially like this off-season where, like you said, they still don't have the office coordinator. Yet they've added Joe Judge and they've added Matt Patricia. It seems like a lot of the same mentality in terms of, you know, the coaching realm, but they've made the schematic changes that they felt were necessary with the roster and reshaping that last year. And by going all in and reverting from what the status quo for the Patriots really is, as far as their MO and free agency and building a roster, And I know it's only three years, like Bill Belichick is probably asking for, more patience,

but that nothing has really changed. That suggests that they're going to be a better team next year or in the next few years, unless they get, you know, Mac Jones to take an immense jump. But other than that, I don't see what, you know, what encourages you about Bill Belichick's current tenure moving forward. Seems like it stagnated. I'd also like to point out that Bill Belichick is going to be 70 years old next month

and the oldest coached NFL history you guys know who it was Romeo Crennell who was 73 yeah wow NFL coaching it's not a young man's game but it's a middle-aged man's game Pete Carroll by the way is older than Bill Belichick Tom Coughlin retired at 69

Dick for Mules last year was a 69 Marblee v. 72, George Halle, 72, Romero Cornell, 73. I don't see a path for Bill Belichick to win another Super Bowl. I don't see a path for him to make another Super Bowl with the way that the AFC is currently set up, let's say, the next three years. I think that he needs to, nobody played the long game better than Bill Belichick in history of football. And he's got to build this team.

And it might be a situation where he's handing it off in four years and saying, hey, you guys take the Patriots to the mountaintop. Nora, what do you think the succession plan is? Do you think Belichick even gives thought to that? I just don't, I mean, when I hear these comments, Belichick has a job until he doesn't want it anymore. But I'm just wondering what the next, I don't know, five years looks like when you have a 70-year-old coach.

I don't think that there is a clear succession plan. Right now one would presume that it is not Josh McDaniels, obviously, whether there are people like Gerard Mayo who are maybe front runners, in the eyes of some people there is possible. But there has been such a massive brain drain of people both on the personnel side and on the coaching side there. But, you know, the coverage is pretty thin, right? Like, we're recycling back through Joe Judge and Matt Patricia.

And those guys are to a pretty significant extent, sort of like extensions of Bill who operate the way that he wants them to. And it doesn't lead you to a natural conclusion of what comes next, right? And the thing is, it looks like as he's getting older, he is still the person you trust the most there, right? Who has vastly more experience than anybody else, particularly, like, they've lost their sort of legendary OG position. position coaches, right?

Like Dante Scarnacchio, no longer with the team. Like the people who'd been there for decades. I've been fierce, the long-time running backs coach. Also, it's creating this situation where Bill pushing 70 kind of has to be responsible for literally everything. And I felt like watching last season, there was some uncharacteristic messiness that I'm very curious to see if next year it looks similarly sloppy. Like they had 95 penalties the year before they had 62.

And it gets complicated to keep going back with that just because particularly how holding calls have changed and how they're enforced. But pre-snap penalties, just general confusion seemed more present on the field on game days for that team than I felt like I was used to seeing. And I don't think that there's anything reasonable to the idea that, like, Bill has somehow lost his fastball. But I do think that he's responsible for just a ridiculous amount of things because there just aren't that many people left to have the institutional knowledge to do it exactly how he wants it done. And because he is himself, he's only okay with it being done exactly how he wants it done. So it creates a complicated situation. And that's before you get into how the rest of the AFC has just, like, stocked up. Yeah, and I don't think it's necessarily losing your fastball, as you said.

It's more about being almost 70 years old and losing the best quarterback of all time and everything that goes along with that. Like, you're not going to be able to reload from that in the same way you've done for the last 20 years. So there was obviously going to be a natural step back. I agree with you. The games were sloppy last year. I wasn't encouraged at just how things progressed since you went along. And then, as you said, you enter into and enter into the equation. In fact that AFC teams are so talented,

the barrier for entry is higher. I don't have a ton of optimism. I do want to address one thing. You talk about Matt Patricia. Kaelin, this is a big call. I met Matt Patricia for the first time the other day. Well, actually, I met him with the Super Bowl, the Eagle Super Bowl, like briefly, just in an interview setting.

I was introduced to him the other day, and I've made fun of Matt Patricia. I don't think he's very good coach, but I'm ready to make a big call. He's kind of a good hang. I didn't hang with it. I got like a minute with him. But he had this, like, every, all the coaches, I kind of wanted to see him a little bit.

Like, in a way that was, it was, it was, it was, uh, not what I anticipated. He was kind of the life of the party in some ways. Interesting. He was kind of walking down the hallway, a lot of brohugs. I don't know. Just went against my, my, that matters. That stuff matters. That stuff matters.

A lot of brohugs. More Matt Patricia brohugs than I had anticipated. All right. Let's quickly get to the Lamar Jackson situation. So Steve Bishati. and this is not against, kind of going against what we've heard the last couple months. Lamar Jackson has not signed a extension.

Steve Boshad, the owner of the Ravens, called his approach. This was, he talked also on Tuesday. He called his approach, quote, unique as hell and said that he doubts that Jackson's going to sign a new deal before the next season, unless he has a change of heart and call his general manager, Eric Dacostan says, I'm ready.

Eric can't keep calling him and say, you really need to get in here. That's not a GM's job. So the Kirk Cousins path was brought up a little bit as far as just playing out the tag, getting a fully guaranteed deal, all that stuff. That was thrown out there after Bishadhi's comments and during Bishadi's comments. This isn't it the most interesting contract negotiation, I think, in the NFL right now, Kailan? Yeah, it is.

And part of it is because I believe Lamar is representing himself or he has, you know, close relative who's helping him out. but yeah like i i'm very curious to see like whether you know he's looking for a certain threshold of you know compensation based on i think the the deal that everyone is pointing to was the fact that shan watson just got you know 230 million dollars um over 140 guaranteed i believe so i mean if that's the baseline then i don't know i get the hastiness from the Ravenside, and we see them operate pretty much methodically. We revere Baltimore as being

one of the better front offices than football. So I get why they're trying to get this done. But like, like, you know, DeCaza said, like Lamar Jackson's unique as hell. He's a different dude. I mean, just how he carries himself. So I'm not too surprised.

This is turning into what it's turning into. But at the same time, you know, if Lamar Jackson's goal is to win a Super Bowl eventually with the Baltimore Ravens, then I think there's incentive to, you know, as far as winning is concerned, to getting it done sooner than later,

so that way the Ravens can operate how they need to operate. At the same time, if you're Lamar Jackson, I believe the TV money is coming in next year, you're probably waiting, you know, individually for whatever incentive that you can drive up your deal based on whatever the salary cap is next year, but there should be projections that allow you to know that.

it's confusing. It's kind of confounding. But, you know, Lamar Jackson is Lamar Jackson. So we just got to wait and see. So Spotrack ran the numbers and said that if he lets it ride, if Lamar lets it ride through two tags, as Kirk Cousin said, the total over the next three years is going to be $94 million. Okay. 94. So let's compare that to the next three years of cash. Does it say what the tags are? So he gets $22. this year on the fifth year option. Yeah. 32 then 39. According to Spotra.

Because that's based on the top five salaries. And. Which, by the way, though, if anything, that is low. Like, they would be the experts. But if you imagine that, like, Kyler could push things up, Rush could push things up. Sure. Those feel like.

Sure. And the second tag is 120% of the year before. Like, that feels low to me. So 94 is their estimate over the next three years. And then the other quarterbacks over the next three years in cash. Rogers 150 unique situation, Watson 138 unique situation. Stafford 120. Mahomes 107, Allen 105, Prescott, 85.

So if he lets it run and reaches truth frequency, he would over the next three years be making more in cash than Doc Prescott, less than Josh Allen. and then the bet, if he's going through this path, if he's going through this path, the bet is that he would be able to thank the 94 and then get a deal that reset. Not only, I mean, frankly, if Lamar Jackson reached two free agency

and he was playing as well as he is now and he was fully healthy and there were no, and there were no restrictions on where he'd go, it would not just reset the market. It would reset how we think about NFL contracts. It was, we've, the only, the best player who's best quarterback who's reached true free agency and has been fully healthy as Kirk Cousins. Peyton Manning was a different situation. He had four neck surgeries.

He's been released by his team. That was, Andrew Luff was coming in. That was completely different. Kirk freaking cousins changed contracts. Lamar Jackson getting there would be just incredible. It would be a moment for, for contracts. But, but it's a lot of money guaranteed that you're, that you're passing up. So I see both sides of it.

94's is not crazy. And it's not like, you know, even if he got hurt, which is obviously the thing you're guarding against, I still think that he would get a pretty significant contract if you ever reached for agency. So I don't know. I don't, I'm glad, listen, Lamar's making his own decision. I don't have to make the decision because I suck at football. I just, you know, I hope he gets his money.

You were shaking your head there, Norm. During my rant. Yeah, I mean. no, no, I'm right there with you on the rant. I just, I do think it's a fascinating situation. Ashadi said he doesn't think that they'll get a deal done before next season. So presumably this is going to be something that we're going to be watching for a long time. I just think, and loathe as I am to question the brilliant minds at Spotrack,

who I use constantly. as a resource. That has to not be factoring in potential new quarterback contracts. Because I don't understand how that and I think there was a

like Joel Corey at CBS I think did an estimate that was closer in the three year guarantee to like 118. So and there was some reporting and it's a few weeks old at this point, but Jason Lacanforra, I believe, reported that the Ravens were offering long-ish term deals,

like five years or more was, I believe, what he reported, averaging around 35 a year. So I think the good news is that everybody on both sides of this negotiation seems committed to finding an answer. I don't even know if you want to call it the bad news, but the flip side of that is, financially, I've got to imagine that they're incredibly far apart. because the math of those two things leaves a very large gap between how it all works out. That's the only thing that makes me just sort of turn my head to the side. But it does seem like everybody involved here is like Lamar loves the Ravens. The Ravens love Lamar.

They'll figure it out. But I just don't know where you get 35 million a year for Lamar Jackson at this point, particularly if it's over a long-ish term period. that's my thing too especially if you know like you said Russell Wilson will probably get a new deal with the Broncos there's another quarterback who will probably get a new deal you know in the time you know between now and the time Lamar Jackson ends up getting a new deal like I'd be shocked that this is under 40 a year just based on how some of the other quarterbacks contracts is structured so it is the most fascinating contract situation in the sport right now and I'm intrigued to see it as it develops. Kalyn Jones. Thanks so much, buddy. Of course, guys. Thanks for having me. All right. Now, an offseason Ruizans. Wow. That just rolls off the tongue. What we wanted to do here is do a deep dive into what this buck's offense has looked like, is going to look like. I just saw a quote from Todd Bowles. He says he's not going to apologize for inheriting a talented team. That is the energy I like. I'm into it. Stephen, first big picture question. We were talking about it a little earlier, but we wanted to get your take. Does this change your outlook on? whether or not the Bucks can compete in the NFC in 2022? I don't think so.

Just because that offense and Byron Leftwich, as a coach, I feel like has been so molded by who Bruce Ariens was that I really don't think they're losing anything on the offensive side by losing him. My question would be what that defense looks like now that Todd Bowles has more responsibilities. I'd be more concerned about that than the offense. Interesting. Okay. First big picture question. Brady goes to Tampa. and he does things that are Aryan-centric,

he does things that are Brady-centric. How would you describe the kind of tent pulls of that offense over the past two years? What did they, what was their bread and butter team? I would say their bread and butter, I would think, is the play-action deep-shot game, and I think Brady's ability to make those throws, which was shocking to me,

because at the end of his New England run, I thought he was kind of washed in terms of arm-tal. But then now he's making the best throws of his career. I thought that was the bread-and-butter, and I don't expect that to change. I think the concepts are going to remain the same. If anything, I think the offense might get better now that you don't have Arian's philosophy kind of holding it back.

I think Brian Lefowitz got a lot of criticism in the early years, the first year with James and that first year with Brady as well because they weren't running a lot of play action. They weren't running a lot of motion. But those are things that Bruce Ariens has always done. He's never run a lot of play action. He's never run a lot of motion. Offense is really hard on quarterbacks.

That's why it only works when the quarterback plays really well. Like it only works when you have Carson Palmer playing at an MVP level. Or Andrew Luck playing at a top 10 quarterback level as a rookie or even Ben Rothsburger. Maybe now that it's Byron Left, which is offense on his own, maybe we start to see some of those schematic shortcuts for Tom Brady and things get even easier. Interesting. You mentioned the defensive. the defensive questions that you have with Bulls being a head coach. Can you expand on that a little bit?

It has nothing to do with Bowles personally. It's just whenever a coordinator becomes a head coach, you have more responsibility. Like you have to manage timeouts. You have to manage the game. And I have to imagine that gets in the way of calling plays if he's going to call plays on defense. He is.

And when you look at the best play callers around the league on both sides of the ball, like Shaw McVey, Kyle Shanahan, And those guys are guys that have always struggled with game management. And I think a part of it is because they've micromanaged the offense so much that they don't have time to pay attention to timeouts or fourth down decisions or field position decisions. It just makes it harder. I can't imagine being that guy on game day, calling plays and managing that aspect of the game. It's just too much. I think I agree.

Is there anything that you would like to see Brady do more of this year, by the way? I think play action. they've always been, like, Arian's offense always been at the bottom of the league in play action. And I think one thing that Tom Brady did really well, even at the end of his time in New England, where things started to fall off, was the play action passing game.

They rode the play action passing game to that 2018 Super Bowl. So I think that takes a little off his plate and demands less of him. Like last year, he's a 44-year-old quarterback who were asking him to make the most difficult throws in the pocket and to hold onto the ball. for an eternity in the pocket against pressure.

Anything you can do to limit his responsibility after the snap, I think is good. And I don't know if Ariens was ever going to do that at this point in his career. I just think he was a little too stubborn. And rightfully so, he's had a lot of success. So why change? But now I think Brady has a little more say over that audience. Nor, you were around late stage Patriots Brady. were you surprised at how easily he was able to thrive in a new offense?

And also, as Stephen said, just the arm talent required, I think there were a lot of questions about it. And he answered all those questions under Broussarians. And now he will under Byron Leftwich. I don't think that I thought, if you looked closely, even at the end when that Patriots offense was really struggling, the issue is that the receivers couldn't separate. it wasn't that Tom Brady had gone noodle arm. And if you paid attention, I think that was fairly evident. I was still surprised by the degree to which he was able to go there and very quickly play at a level that made him an MVP candidate.

So I was surprised by the degree to which it happened. But again, the issue is just that the cupboard in terms of pastcatchers was completely bare in New England and no one could get separation. So I think, and I do think that he has, you know, sometimes he's exerted a little bit of his will on that offense and gotten them to do a little bit more in terms of running play action, a little bit more in terms of using motion. I bet if we believe that he is exerting some influence over what has happened with the coaching staff and the head coaching position there, I would bet that he continues to do that a little bit more this coming season. we'll see how much, but that is stuff that he really likes to do. So I am with Stephen on that front. Steve, anything else here in notes?

I am happy for Todd Bowles, but I do think we should question his head coaching ability at least a little bit because things did not go well in New York. Like he got a 10-win season out of that team, that roster, which was pretty good. They spent a lot of money on it. But the locker room issues were, they were significant.

Like you had Mo Wilkerson skipping out on practice. I think there was one meeting where they bought a birthday cake for him and he didn't show up. Power moved by him. Sheldon Richardson had some problems. Yeah. Ryan Fitzpatrick, the Ryan Fitzpatrick benching situation wasn't handled well. I think Bowles announced it to the media before he told Fitzpatrick,

you had the Gino Smith thing getting punched in the locker. Like it was not a- You did. You did. It was not a great locker room environment. Now, I don't think that's going to be a problem in Tampa Bay because you have Tom Brady there. You have this established culture in the locker room.

So it might not be an issue. Players rowing in the right direction. When winning is right there, everything changes. Okay, I'm going to go to rant here. I heard a story the other day about an NBA team. And someone was talking about tanking. And they were talking about the problem with tanking or the problem with not going.

this actually, I heard a story weeks ago and I was just waiting. I've brought it up a little bit, but I'm just waiting for the right time to rant about it. But when winning is not the primary goal, contracts are, which is what happens

and contracts, by the way, are the primary goal of every player everywhere. But when the as the team goes through a season and winning is not possible or the Super Bowl is not possible, guys start. to only look at their contract.

Instead of, and I'm sure, I don't know what the breakdown is, it's probably only 75% in the same way anybody in any business looking at their own salary, 75% contract, 25% winning, right? And at some point, it becomes 0% winning, if winning is not possible. And so your entire culture is completely different. If you're someplace like Tampa Bay, where winning is so close,

and that if you're the backup tackle and you play 30 great snaps in, in in in in in in replace in relief of an injured guy then someone will see that and assume you're good and and sign you for 25% more than you get everything winning makes people rich coaches rich backup tackles rich starters rich owners rich marketing guys rich winning makes it rich and when it's that close it's a completely different environment the Todd Bulls jets and the Todd Bulls bucks are almost going to be like playing different sports. But here's one issue.

They won 10 games. So you can't just say they sucked and they just gave up. They won 10 games. They were still having to. I know, but they also had Ryan to Patrick. They arrived with Tiger quarterback and there was a ceiling on that. But it's also like let's let the thing be the thick, right? Like that 10 and 6th season was the best jet season in the last decade.

Like it's hard for me to knock the 2015 jets as a demerit for Todd Bowles when it is the best it has been in 10 years by like a chunk. Here's my thing. Here's my take on. Including in other years with Todd Bowles. But like that feels like a Jets criticism,

not a Todd Bulls criticism. Yeah. Todd Bulls is going to win a lot more than 10 games this year. That's true. I've talked about how if I could just get in the room with the NFL owner for like 10 minutes,

I could get a job. Here would be my pitch. I would pitch tanking. But you don't tank. You let another team tank for you. You trade for their first round pick and then let them tank. That's what tanking teams, that's what they're missing out on. You need, like, the Texans to tank for you, or the Eagles to tank for you.

Or the dolphins, even. That's how you do it. That's a secret to success. I think Tepper would like that. David Tepper would be on board for that. I think the Panthers are going to also tank. Not by choice, though. No, I'm saying even if your plan was let's let somebody else tank,

if you got hired by the Panthers, you would also be accidentally tanking. how did we get on this subject? Well, it's because Stephen has been talking about his plan to get to swindle an NFL owner for many, many months now. That's what this podcast is about. This podcast is about me swindling an owner, just getting in the room with an owner so I can swindle them. And if I'm not able to do it, that's on me. That's on me. All right.

Thanks, guys. Cool. You're welcome. All right. This has been the ring NFL show, part of the podcast network. you to Stefan Anderson for his production out with additional productions provision by Arjuna, Ramfiel Paul. See you next week or the next time there's six.