The Ringer NFL Show - Categorizing All 32 NFL Head Coaches

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Nora, Austin, and Diante come together to categorize all 32 NFL head coaches based on their coaching styles and what they contribute to their teams. They sort them into categories such as control freaks, chief morale officers, scheme lords, and more! Hosts: Nora Princiotti, Austin Gayle, and Diante Lee Associate Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sure, the weather is getting warmer and you're probably planning your next vacation with your family. But what better way to avoid your family on that vacation than listening to three dudes argue about quarterback tears? If you can trust a wide receiver over 30 years old, and if Jim Harbaugh still thinks chickens are nervous birds. Join me, Craig Horlebeck, along with Danny Hyfitz and Danny Kelly every week on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm Nora Punciati, and I am joined this week by Austin Gail. Hello, Austin. Lovely green Dodgers cap you've got going on there.

I'm trying. You know, I try to switch the hats up as much as I can. Yeah, it's pretty good. It's pretty cool. And we've got Deonté Lee, newest member of the Ringer NFL family, and not a first time Ringer NFL podcast participant, but first time for us potting together, Deontay.

I'm excited about it. How are you feeling? Very excited. You know, obviously, Nora, you and I have kind of, bumped into each other in Indianapolis for the combine for a couple of years. I'm not sure how much information sharing was going on while I was being kind of recruited by some of the other people on staff, but I'm glad that I'm here now and obviously been looking forward to, you know, recording with you.

Me and Austin obviously have history going back to pro football focus. I'm glad to be here with people I know, people I care about and talking ball. That sounds so ominous. We've got some history. We've got some old beef. We're going to dredge it up and the second half of this pod. There we go.

I'd like that. If you guys want to get into it, that's totally fine with me. There's just stuff that went down several years ago in PFF Slack and you feel like this is the appropriate forum in which to work it out. That's fine.

I think Deante is a pretty good, a pretty good Slack contributor. He doesn't really create a lot of dust. He's in and out. Whereas I'm kind of a, constant mini gun in there that, you know, obviously some windows get broken with those shots up. So I think it's more about me and the beef that I've created or the dust that I've created. Yeah, no, Austin and I are good.

That's some self-awareness. I like it. Yeah, we're good. Actually, we might actually go all the way back to fan side of talking about the Raiders. And that was like forever ago. It's true. It's true. All right. Well, I'm mostly glad, though, a tinge disappointed that we've established that nobody on this podcast has active beef with each other. But on that note, maybe we can kick off our actual programming. We're going to do a little coaching episode today. It felt time that we talk about the various head coaches of our 32 NFL teams.

And what we thought that we would do is instead of doing a straight up like rankings, because we didn't want to get into a situation where we were having arguments about like, who is the fourth versus fifth best NFL coach because it just sort of, you know, you're splitting hairs at that point. We felt like we would do some

archetypes and sorting coaches into the buckets based on sort of what their calling card is, what the thing that they've been hired first and foremost to do for their organization, and see if it teaches us anything. Like, see if it tells us anything about how each one of us might look at different coaches similarly or differently. And then once we've got the buckets together, take a look at those and see if we can draw any conclusions about what's working in the NFL in terms of archetypes for head coaches, maybe what isn't? So I'll share with everyone the five archetypes that we came up with.

And one of them, we called the control freaks. And this is a pretty rare one. But this is the type of all-powerful organizational leader. Obviously, he is not on this list anymore. But I think of this in the Bill Belichick mold, someone who has roster control as well as obviously control of the coaching staff and a role in coaching. And basically all of your major football directives are coming through this person. They've probably been hired with some type of general oversight ability in mind. So maybe you see that as ability to sort of like build a program. Maybe you see that as just like someone who you cannot hire, who won't take the job unless you give them a type of, a ton of control.

But this is a relatively, probably a relatively small group, but it's the people who are in total control of their organization. Another one that we have is the placeholders. And I do want to distinguish this from the hot seat category because this could be the coaches who are sort of in limbo and you wonder if they're going to make it to the end of the year, make it to next season, but it could also just reflect the fact that they're kind of a delegator. And in some cases, maybe that's a good thing,

but in others maybe it means that a lot of the staff or roster is sort of out of their hands, and it's a little bit hard to define what exactly the number one quality, if there is a singular quality that they're bringing to their organization as head coaches. The third one we have, we're calling adult in the room. And this is a sort of complete coach. But this is someone who is not quite as empowered as a control freak, but is someone who is kind of a program builder, someone who, you know, maybe they instill a lot of fundamentals,

a lot of discipline. It's not necessarily about being like, rah-rah vibes guy, but it is sort of a holistic approach just falling short of that sort of all encompassing power of a control freak. That is distinct

from chief morale officer, which is another category. This is the vibes king. Austin Gale is absolutely desperate for me to include the phrase guardian at the gate in defining this category, which maybe gives you a clue as to one of the coaches on his list in this category is.

culture eat strategy for breakfast, attitudinal, raw, raw guy. Like, I think if this is the sort of typical players coach, but this is someone who is hired for their ability to bring people together. And then we have the scheme lords. I think that's pretty self-explanatory. This doesn't necessarily mean that they call plays,

but obviously that's definitely going to be a future of a lot of these guys, or at least they were play callers at one time. They're known for either their offense or their defense, and fundamentally, that's a big part of what they bring to the team. Deonti, I was thinking as our newest edition, I was going to nominate you to start sharing your list, and then we can kind of work off of it.

Austin and I can share where we might see things slightly differently, and we'll make our way through that way. Is that okay? Yeah, of course. That's cool with me. So I think I'll start with where you start. that's where you started in terms of control freaks. As you mentioned, kind of a rare archetype of coach.

I don't, I try not to infer that that means that you're the best kind of coach, but just that I think the combination of qualities that would make you a control freak, you probably see a little less likely than you would with some of the other archetypes that we're going to talk about today. And the four person list I have for control freaks would be Andy Reed, Kyle Shanahan, Sean Payton, and Sean McVey. If you have to try to draw a line of comparison between all four, they are all four offensive guys.

I would say maybe only two of them I specifically think of as quarterbacks guys. And that being Sean Payton and Sean McVeigh, I think Andy Reid was a little bit more holistic as a West Coast offense guy. Same with Kyle Shanahan, right? You obviously have the implications of working for his dad and learning the offense and the way that Mike Shanahan liked to run it for however long and then branching out and doing his own thing in Houston and Cleveland before getting a head coaching opportunity. But yeah, I would say that those are the four that probably fit that control freak archetype in the sense of even their GMs are going to let you know at the combine when you're talking to them at the podium in any capacity that this is a collaborative effort through and through.

If Sean McVeigh walks into Lesnees office and says, hey, we need another tight-in, they're going to start scouting tight-ins to go acquire, right? And I think that while there are some other coaches that I think have a lot of influence on rosters and staffs and things like that, I would say that these are probably the four guys that I identify as having like 360 degrees of control over what happens in terms of football on field decisions. Austin, how did you think about this? Probably wrong because I don't have those guys in my list. I think that- Mine's actually pretty different too, so I want to tell us. I definitely agree that, you know, Andy Reed, Shanahan, McVey, Peyton have either strong-armed, I think with Peyton in Denver have strong-armed their influence or strong-armed their 360-degree control,

whereas Reed, McBey, Shanahan have, like, wholeheartedly earned it as scheme lords. Like, if Andy Reed's offense or McBay or Shanahan's offense isn't what it is, and, like, if a Shanahan can't turn Purdy, Garoppolo combination into what he has, has been able to. I don't know necessarily if he has that control. And I think I feel the same way about Reed. I feel the same way about McVeigh. That's why I did position those guys at Schemortz and how I thought about these tiers was not necessarily why they hired them, but like, where do they bring the most value? Is Shanahan the most valuable as a control freak? I would argue no, cough, cough, tray Lance. Right? Like, I would argue no with some of these other, you know,

maybe even some of these other decisions that it Reed has made or McVeigh has made. McVeigh is still someone where I constantly find myself questioning his punting and field goal decisions, all that stuff where it's like, hey, like, I really like the offense. I really like what he's able to put out. He's still someone who, you know, five years ago, like, led the 11 personnel change to where like every single team was like, we're putting three receivers on the field. We're going to do what they're doing over there in Los Angeles. He's been one of the bigger innovators. What he's done hiring coaches and developing coaches, I think four of the current head coaches in the league were former McVeigh. Since five before Bray's, he's

Rand's Daley was let go. He has a ton of other assistants that are getting promoted. Zach Robinson and Atlanta, it happens everywhere, right? And I think why I think they're most valuable, however, is what their impact is on their side of the ball. Obviously, all three of those being offensive.

The only control freak I have currently is Sean Peyton. Because I think that while he had earned that in New Orleans, working with Drew Brees. And I think if we had Stephen Ruiz on this podcast, he'd put his hand up for complimenting Sean Payton and what he did when it was that Taysom Hill, James Winston, Teddy Bridgewater, combination. But he's now a control freak in Denver, and I don't know the impacts he's going to

have specifically on the offensive side of the ball now that they bring Bo Nix in there, and he's comparing Bo Nix to Patrick Mahomes. And this scares me, right? I think he's in this control freak territory where, yes, when he walks in the room, because no one else really wants to jump up to it is going to have the control. That's me is why I only have Sean Payton in this tier, because I still feel like he is most valuable to Denver, being the guy that like wants to make the decisions, wants to build the team, lead the offense,

hire all these guys and all that stuff, it's all going to be dependent on the decisions he made. He's made, and that big decision he's made is drafting Bo Necks as high as he did. Let me ask you both a question because I'm curious about the McVeigh part of this.

If Sean McVeigh and Les Sneed had a significant argument, difference of opinion, over a roster move, who do you think wins there? I probably say McVeigh, but I don't know if it will be, I don't think he's winning with hostility

as much as I think that less need could probably look at that situation and say, you know offense, you know how to hire a defensive staff, for example, you have a vision for what works and what wins in the NFL, and we've now seen basically two and a half, depending on how you look at,

maybe the back end of Stafford's career now, post-Super Bowl, in terms of eras of Rams football that he has now kind of ushered them through or is ushering them through. So I say Sean McVeigh probably wins that decision and I think if I was to reframe the question as if they bottomed out again

the way that they did two seasons ago who would be more likely to be on the quote-unquote hot seat, it will probably be more likely that less need would be on the way out than Sean McVeigh. I don't think that a team like the Rams would be willing to part with him. I think that's true in the sense that I think Sean McVeigh has more organizational power

probably significantly more. But in terms of like, okay, you know, he still is the coach, right? So you have to be a particularly empowered coach to get to override the GM when it comes to roster stuff. I think he would win if it were, like I think he would win on quarterback things.

I think in some other areas of the offense, probably. I just, I do think that less need has, has, has, has, created, he's accrued some amount of decision-making power there just in terms of like, there is a sensibility and a formula that you associate with his roster building that has, you know, they've had ups and downs, but that has led them to success. Like there aren't that many general managers who have a slogan on a T-shirt. And so I think Sean McVeigh is really, really, he's obviously a really, really empowered head coach.

I do wonder if there's a little bit of sort of more sneaky equality between those two branches of government than we then seems obvious. At the same time, I do lean towards Austin's thinking in terms of like when I just, when I think Sean McVay, I just think about scheme. And I feel the same way about Shanahan. Read to me is really tough. I do think I put him in this category ultimately just because at this point, like he's spent so much time kind of building that. organization in his image. The other two I want to bring up for you guys, I considered Mike Tomlin here,

who I just think has at this point, again, he really, he's such a mainstay there in Pittsburgh. And I think that team has really reflected him and how they operate and the types of decisions that they make really seem to stem from him. Omar Khan, obviously, is a fairly young general manager. So I think Tomlin is a contender here for me as well. And then the other one, I see a little bit of,

I see a little bit of this in the hiring of Jim Harbaugh. And I do think, you know, in a similar way to the Peyton thing, sometimes it takes giving a heavy amount of control to woo someone. So those were the other two that I would have considered. And I do kind of ultimately want to put them on here. Austin, how do you feel about either of those names?

I think that the Tomlin comment is fair. I still have him in the adult in the room tier. And I want to talk about him a little bit more in depth when we do get to that tier. I think that the control piece for him isn't as aggressive as a Jim Harbaugh. I think Jim Harbaugh makes way more sense here. If he wasn't as eccentric and loud as a person, I think I would put him in this spot, but it's just so hard not to put the chief morale officer

in the chief morale officer spot. I don't know if you guys saw that clip this offseason where he's like, I woke up 4 a.m. And I didn't realize it was just a day. It was two day. And I'm like, okay, this guy's made for this league. He's made for content. He's made to cheer these guys on.

He puts their recruit status on the players' locker rooms. Why does he mean for content matter? Because if you're going to be a chief vibes officer, you have to come in and throw not. He's saying the Michigan fight song after day three of the draft and everyone's saying with him. That is, yes, a control freak in a lot of ways. But like that dude's the definition of raw, raw vibes king just coming in. And not just immediately changing the culture or immediately changing the decision making, but literally immediately changing the decibels of the locker room in terms of how loud that place is probably now.

and how much more active that place is now. I think we're going to continue to see him have a lot of control, and his control of the roster, his control of the decision-making across the board is definitely going to be felt, but it's impossible not to put him in the spot where he's just, he's, at his core is just like the world's biggest. I mean, think about the comments he made about JJ McCarthy.

That guy is like the raw, raw piece of the league. He's like what you build a coach out of when you're trying to pull out of some of these, like, motivating things. I think he really is, he really wants to be that guy, too. If you asked, if you gave these five buckets to Jim, and you're like, which one you think is that? Of course, I'm Chief Moral Officer. I'm the Vibes King.

I'm the guardian at the gate, et cetera, et cetera. How many times is I was going to say guardian at the gate? As many as I want. All right, Deontes, we're going with your list. So I'm curious if we've made any convincing arguments to you so that we can settle who actually belongs in here. So the name that you brought up that I'm kind of fascinated to kind of go back and forth about, I think would be Jim Harbaugh.

And I think maybe I feel a little bit more comfortable putting him in like a chief morale officer category because I have some trust maybe in what John Hortiz is going to do as a team builder. but I think that you could make the argument that the kind of symbiosis that I would credit Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch and Les Need and Sean McVeigh with having in terms of team building and putting together a staff and creating an entire program around them, you probably could make a sensible argument around the same thing happening with the Chargers. I'm probably just going to, I think I want to wait a little bit to see exactly what Harbaugh's second stint as an NFL head coach is going to look like because we saw a lot of tension with he and Trent Balky in San Francisco, right?

That was kind of the undoing of both of their tenures, you know? And I know that Jim Harbaugh will probably eventually have some very strong opinions on where the roster needs to go, especially because I think we all know that major turnover is happening now and probably more so on the horizon to come. So I think that that's one of those things that I'm probably in a holding pattern with. And I want to wait and see whether or not we see something that's a little bit more easily identified by what Jim Harbaugh's vision of football is or if they're bar.

a little bit more directly from Baltimore's model of just trying to go get the best athletes in the building and trusting that their head coach knows how to put guys in a position to succeed and knows how to develop them. So that's something I think that we can probably answer a little bit more clearly in an offseason or two than I feel like I could right now. Okay. Well, we can keep them in CMO. I like Jimmy in the control freak, especially emphasis on freak. Jimmy?

Right. What is this? People call him Jimmy. No, you don't call him Jimmy? You made that up. I like Jimithee Harbaugh in the control freak tier more than I do. Jim strikes me as a guy that would want to fight you for calling him Jimmy. Yeah, Jimothy.

Jimothy's good. But I like him in that tier more than I even like Shanahan and McVay because I think part of their success is the relationship they've been able to develop with their respective GMs, right? like what Shanahan's been able to do with Lynch and what Sneed and McVeigh have been able to develop. I think it's like part of why they've been successful.

Right now, I don't know how much like... We've never really had to find out because they're all pros with each other. Exactly. Like they're all friends and like they're all like buddying up versus like I don't know how much Joe Hortez is making decisions in Los Angeles. I think Jim is making all of those.

I would be surprised if Harbaugh doesn't have the edge over Hortiz in that spot. And same with Peyton and, Denver with George Payton, the other Peyton in Denver. Okay, well, let's move to our next category and we can see if we clear some of these up later. We also, I mean, we don't have to totally, some people can belong in multiple spots. Deonti, want to give us the next category? So the next one that I was interested in going through was placeholder for me,

because I think it exists like on the opposite end of the paradigm, right, guys that are really just here for maybe their football bona fides and football bona fides only in terms of what they are as a strategist or a tactician. I would say that in this group for me are also guys that were maybe hired for another reason. And I think we may be found out over time that they don't have as much cashé within the organization that they may have wanted or that they might have had earlier. So my list here will be Nick Siriani in Philadelphia, Jonathan Gannon, Matt Eber Fluth, Brian Daibald, Brian Callahan, and Robert Salah. and I think with some of those, and I like the caveat you through in front,

that this is not necessarily a hot seat issue, right? You hear Robert Sala, you hear Nick Siriani. I think it's, you hear Matt Eberflus. I think it's very easy to hear, like, that combination of names and think like, oh, these are just guys where it's pretty clear that if they don't produce now, that their job is not secure going forward.

I think that with all of these situations, the organization has been built, I think, to kind of keep the head coach siloed, in their one particular role, whatever it may be that those teams hired them for, they're not going to go, you know, Jonathan Gannes can go knock on Monty Austin Forrest's door and ask for a certain player. But I think if Monty does not want to bring that player in the building, that guy's not coming in the building.

And if they're having conversations with ownership, I think that ownership for each of these guys is probably more likely to lean upon whatever brain trust they have between, you know, president, EVPs, and the GM, than they are to lean on the understanding of the head coach is probably the way I would say it. I am with you on this list. This to me is exactly where I would go. Here's what I would say, though. Is Jonathan Gannon,

how many games do the Cardinals have to win this year for Jonathan Gannon to get? And I don't want to say upgraded, because again, this is not about Hotsie, but for Jonathan Gannon to move into Chief Morale officer category. I've got him in that spot. I got him in that spot already.

I don't have him in the placeholder spot. He's got CMO potential. I agree. He's got vibes to him. him. He's got vibes to him. I don't know if I don't remember the Pew Pew, the random stuff he did with Ronnell Moore. He's like, did you take the bus in?

Some of that stuff is not hitting, but at least he's Oh, never going to over taking the bus. But I think that, I remember talking with Ruiz a lot last year. Did you take the bus here? A group of NFL players who all at minimum making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Did you take

the bus here today? Probably not. Your local metro transit line. They probably didn't. They probably didn't have their Arizona, like not a place known for public transportation. I know living in Cincinnati that the Bengals players had to walk across a public street to the practice field. And like that always felt like very, very awkward. But I don't think that's happening across the league.

And I definitely don't think players are taking the bus to practice. But I still feel like he wants to be a chief vibes officer. I think he has intentions of being like that shows immediately when he came in. He's like, I'm not calling plays. I'm not calling place. I'm going to delegate that stuff out, and I'm going to try and just keep this place excited, keep this place energized.

I remember talking with Ruiz, you know, steam Ruiz here at the ringer a lot last year, but like, this team's fighting. Like this team's not laying down. I remember that game against early in the season against the Dallas Cowboys.

You're like, whoa, okay. They're coming out and fighting for him and playing for him in ways that I don't think anyone expected after Hard Knocks really peel back the layers and the Rondel Moore clip went viral. I think some,

you know, Danny Hyfitt's another analyst here at the ringer was making comparisons to Kendall Roy a little. bit. I was like, okay, he was getting thrown on the rug. But I honestly thought the Arizona Cardinals team really wanted to play for him last year. So I did move him to Chief Vives officer. I kind of like, I don't know if I'm picking up the vibes he's putting down, but he's swinging the bat. That's for sure. I'm going to bang the gavel and I'm going to move Jonathan Gannon into CMO category. I just think that feels right. That's fair. And you know, a lot of these guys

kind of exist between worlds, right? Like, I would say Nick Siriani is probably on that same borderline of like being a morale guy, right? I think they obviously having been a quarterback guy and working with offenses. I think as long as Howie Roseman is, is the general manager of the Philadelphia Eagles, Eagles head coach just like no matter who has that job, there's, there is a little bit of placeholder potential. I mean, it's just very clear who you're reporting to at the end of the day, right? Like it's very clear where the owner's eyes are.

If something goes wrong in Philadelphia, you're not calling Nick Siriani. You're calling Howie Roseman to address the issue. first and allowing it all to kind of trickle down from there. Yes, Siriani has, he's at various points, kind of played himself as a scheme guy. He's also kind of played the vibes game. It's just, it's, that's just the nature of that job, though, particularly when you got somebody like Bill Belichick looming over your head. But even, even without that, that's just, I think, the nature of that job.

Austin, did you have any more takeaways in this category? I like the list. I had some additions. My list is a little bit thicker than yours. I actually had a bold one here. I put Zach Taylor here. I think that he to me has felt like a placeholder until the successes they were able to have

in large part of Joe Burrell being a monster and arguably being a top five quarterback in the league. I know some people differ on that, but I think he is one of those top five guys. And then also just the success that his defensive coordinator Lou Anirumo was able to have, who three or four years ago, you could look up the articles from Bengals

Jungle, all the people who covered the Bengals closely like, we want Lou Anirumo out. This guy sucks. Defense not playing well. Luanarumo turned around. Joe Burrow got healthy and played really well. And I think there's been constant, fair questions about just how much is Zach Taylor's offense really elevating Joe Burrow,

T. Higgins, Jamar Chase, Joe Mixing when he was there, obviously now in Houston. I see Zach Taylor as a placeholder for eventually, if this season ever happens where Joe Burrow doesn't get hurt and the bangles don't, you know, win a playoff game. Right, right now, so much of the seasons have been, Joe Burroughs healthy, they're going long, Joe Burroughs hurt, the excuses are right there. And I think that if there's a season, maybe this year or next year, where Joe Burrow is

fully healthy and there aren't as obvious of injury excuses, I wonder if there does come into question, what exactly do you do here, Zach Taylor? Because I think those questions have not kind of way, despite the success of Joe Burrow, despite the success of the team going to the Super Bowl, however many years ago. I don't know. I've always been low on Zach Taylor. I've never really liked some of the things he said about, like his run-pass split, some of the things he said about how he's going to try and elevate the offense. It feels like he's always following what Joe Burrow wants, which, like, how much of an elevator can you actually be if you're saying, oh, this works for Joe, we're going to do it this way. Like, I understand catering your offense to your players,

but at a certain point, you have to also bring something to the table. And I just don't think he has. I don't know how much he's brought to the table. And I'd be interested. Deiontie, what your thoughts have been just to reaction to some of the challenges that they've faced, trying to bring in a shotgun run game and trying to make Joe Burrow better than just a kind of like 50-50 shot

vertical ball merchant. Like he has not, in my opinion, helped Burrow even move on from some of his weaknesses or like constraints in my opinion. I think that's fair. Like to me, I have Zach Taylor in the scheme law category.

Which I, if he's not in placeholder, I think that's where he ends up. Right, but I think that the argument you make is strong. And there was actually another AFC North team who has a coach that I was kind of on the borderline on. And that's Kevin Stefanski right now. And I think that you can probably make an argument that this season for them, they've made strides to say, hey, we're really going to try to adapt this offense to fit Deshaun Watson because we obviously poured so much money and draft capital and all of that into bringing this guy in and making him the franchise guy. And I think that that kind of leaves him in a little bit of an eye.

position. Again, that doesn't necessarily mean hot seat. It doesn't necessarily infer that there's anything negative happening. But clearly, they brought in Kevin Stephancy because of what he did offensively in Minnesota and what they're going to be doing going forward. I think it's sending a pretty clear signal that that's not what he's doing now. You know, he may still be, he may still have a total hands-on approach to the offense, but that is not the reason why he is going to keep his job is because of what he did as a coordinator. It's all going to be basically what he can apply as a delegator and trying to meld whatever new offensive ideas into what they currently have now to make it work for Deshaun Watson.

So that's another guy I'm kind of interested to see, like, how much power do you actually have in this organization? And we already know between Andrew Barry and just like the organizational brain trust that exists with all the analytics guys and the ways they approach scouting and acquiring talent and what they do with the draft, I think it's pretty clear that they are not thinking that the head coach's wishes always have to come first when it comes to how they build that organization. So I'm really fascinated to see what context exists for Cleveland now

versus what it was maybe four or five years ago. What was interesting about doing this exercise, and I think I felt it the most in the placeholder tier, was when I found myself saying their job security is largely dependent on the success of the quarterback play. And I feel like it's hard to

not feel that those are inextricably linked with coaching success. And I've long said that the hiring and firing process in the NFL is like, just horrible and not actually sometimes you know not actually like results driven oftentimes it's it's more or is maybe two results driven and that like you lose this game you're out

you win this game you're you're gonna stay like we've seen those situations come up those tweets from Rappaport and Schechter late in the season where it's like if they win week 18 he might stick around if they don't it's he might be it's like I think the process for evaluating hiring and firing coaches is bad and it's going to continue to be bad given the powers it be and what drives a Callahan getting into the league or a Shanahan getting into the league

or all these other guys, right? Press Taylor and Zach Taylor. That to me, I think, is going to always make this exercise, even just evaluating coaches in general very difficult. But when I put together a lot of these placeholders, I kind of found myself saying like, they aren't necessarily going to be calling plays there. They aren't loud enough to be raw, raw guys

and maybe have yet to prove their adults in the room. They're guys that if they stick around, their quarterback's going to play well, right? I feel that way about Dave Canales and Carolina. I feel the way about Zach Taylor in Cincinnati, Matt Iberfluse in Chicago, Doug Peterson, and Jacksonville. These guys are going to be coaches in the league if their respective quarterbacks play well. If Bryce Young doesn't turn it around immediately under Dave Canales, I wouldn't be surprised

to he's out in two years. I feel the same way about Iverflus with Caleb Williams. I feel the same way about Siriani and Jalen Hertz. I feel the same way about Peterson with Trevor Lawrence. All of that to me feels like they are not above their quarterbacks and therefore objectively placeholders. Whereas, like, Shanahan is always going to be above his quarterbacks, right? Reed is above his quarterbacks.

Reed, before Mahomes came in, had a top 10 offense with Alex Smith in the four years leading into the Mahomes era. And then since then, has had the best offense in the league. Like, he has been above quarterbacks for quite some time. Placeholders have yet to prove that. Here's the thing that I would say for Stavansky, though, is that, and this is where you get into the fact

that it is a little bit of a one-on-one situation in Cleveland. If somehow they disentangled themselves from Watson, I think Stifansky has a shot to revert back to scheme lord I think he had

proven that he's that he does have he does run an effective offense he does have ideas that given better quarterback play

but also quarterback play that is fitting of his system that it works, that it's effective, that it is capable of elevating quarterbacks who don't necessarily have the most special traits

in making them look good, which is a valuable thing, which is the type of thing that a lot of these scheme lord guys hang their hat on. I think because of the situation with Watson, who at least has been a better quarterback

than some of the guys that Stefanski has actually made look pretty good, but first of all, has not done that in a long time. And second of all, even when he was doing that, was not necessarily the style of quarterback that that,

that fits itself ideally to that offense. He is hamstrung as a scheme lord, and therefore he's trying to be an adult in the room, but the room is just a bunch of babies throwing crap on the walls, and therefore that's a failure, which pushes him into the placeholder situation. So I think that's true, because I do think that that situation is probably

unless there's a real turnaround in the quarterback play going to result in someone getting fired and though this is not necessarily a hot seat placement and can be indicative of that and Stavansky feels like the obvious contender to take the fall there. That said, I do think that if he somehow found a way to stick the landing,

we could return to the days of Kevin Stavansky scheme lord, which I do think he came by honestly. It is a little bit of an interesting parallel to Zach Taylor, who has had better quarterback play, and yet where I can define for you the features of the Kevin Stefansky offense, and where the Bengals have done, have made some admirable strides in terms of how they have tried to marry their run and pass game and how they have gone through seasons when they've dealt with injuries and all of that stuff. When I think of the Bengals offense fundamentally,

I think of the stuff that Austin was talking about, which is like the 50-50 balls and the, we are going to win simply by being better than you, which is not really scheme-driven. I also feel with Taylor, I feel like the innovations he's made have been very reactive and also very simple, right? Like, oh, this isn't working for us. We're going to like essentially flip the coin and try something else

rather than actually trying to innovate on any individual principle or certain shifts or certain motion versus like actually trying unique things to put other players in positions to succeed versus like we're doing a lot of zone. Let's try a lot of, you know, gap scheme stuff and see if that helps unlock some of this, you know, shotgun running game because it's reactive to the Joe Burrow thumb injury. Like every innovation has been reactive to a problem

when like there needs to be more proactivity in this league. Like Mike McDaniel literally spending the entire offseason on changing offense with the cheat motion. With Stefanski, what I find interesting is there's a quote from an article in February of this year. They hired Ken Dorsey, obviously, the office coordinator or former office coordinator from Buffalo, and he's yet to commit on who's going to call plays in 2024. In the quote, he said, I don't think that's like the most important decision right now. I'd be really interested to see if he actually delegates that because I think he thinks his most,

like his biggest edge is him as an offensive play call or him as an offensive designer versus like once he delegates that, does he become this placeholder piece where it's like, all right, man, like now it's Dorsey running the offense. And it's up to Deshaun Watson playing better and or staying healthy. And then Dorsey, who wasn't able to make it work in Buffalo, arguably, right? He got moved out of Buffalo for whatever reason. That to me, I feel like Stefanski wants to keep the reins there.

And if he does ultimately make that decision and it's Stefanski again calling plays in Cleveland, I think he's kind of putting his foot down saying like, hey, this is what I'm good at. This is what I'm going to try and drive with. It's the same thing that a lot of the other best coaches in the league do. like Reed and Chanahan these guys. The best coaches in the league maintain their strength as innovators on their side of the ball and continue to call plays.

I know delegation's important, but that's only when you're not in the tier with these big dogs. So, Devancy wants to be, I think we've said scheme lord a lot here, but it's the category. If he wants to be a scheme lord, I think he needs to not like waffle on that decision,

re-grip the reins and drive them out of this hell that they're in. I agree. And I think the fascinating thing when we talk about Stefancy, when you talk about Zach Taylor, is that they land themselves in a place that I think we more easily associate with defensive head coaches, right?

Like, to me, the degree to which Robert Sala is a placeholder is just because he's kind of like a boat of drift, right? He's not going, the success of Aaron Rogers is not going to be directly tied to Robert Sala as a head coach, but his job security is, right? And I think that it's a lot easier

for a guy who is not tied directly to a quarterback to find himself in a place where, oh, my coordinator hire didn't land, the guy we drafted maybe didn't land. We are on option two and one of the two, if not both spots. And now how I'm looked at as a coach is married to whether or not something that I do not have my hands on directly is successful or not, right?

So that's where it's really interesting to me for Stefanski. Because to Norris credit, or to the point that she's making, the way that he runs. I'll always take their credit. Right. The kind of offense that he ran prior to them acquiring Deshaun Watson didn't necessarily necessitate having a transformative quarterback. But once you go make that move and now your tenure is married to this guy, It does necessitate you making changes.

And if things go wrong, you're going to bear a lot of the blame. The thing that's kind of interesting for me when I think about Stefanski, though, is I feel like if it's successful, I would almost move him into a different category now. I would almost look at him more as like an adults in the room type for being able to take whatever mess exists in Cleveland right now in terms of like, I guess this imbalance organizationally in making the move for Watson, despite what would or would not have fit the head coach. if you are able to kind of weather the storm through that and continue to be successful and then you would have, hey, I figured this out what Watson, when he wasn't available,

we made the playoffs with Joe Flacco, I've been here for however many years now, we've still been winning and competitive. I think that that can almost waltz him into a different category as a head coach, or I might start thinking about him a little bit differently and not just as a play caller type. The Deshawn Watson stuff forces him into multiple categories

because you have to be the adult in the room, because there's no other adults, and there's nothing else there. You have to be the adult in the room to kind of be the stabilizing presence in Cleveland. Yeah, maybe Joe Flacco is the adult in the room. I kind of feel like where we're landing is that both of these guys belong in placeholder.

Yeah, I think that's fair. Or feel right there? Yeah. All right. So then let's do the adults in the room. I would say adults in the room for me, I think this is probably the one where I felt like I had the outside of control freak where I had a pretty strict kind of way that I thought about this.

I think that there's a certain level of tenure. that I associate with being an adult in the room, and if not, tenured at this one particular spot, you're maybe just like a long-time NFL coach, or you were hired very specifically because you were thought about as like, hey, you're going to bring these coordinators in the door with you. You have a easily identified style of play that you're going to go, you know, approach the game with.

You and you're maybe striving for that kind of symbiosis that we talked about with the control freaks, even if you are not maybe the guy that's going to be pounding the table saying you have to go draft this quarterback, or we've got to go trade these picks to move up so I can go get whatever difference maker, right? So that's kind of the way that I looked at it. So for me, the names that I think kind of qualify here will be Mike Tomlin, which I feel like is an obvious one. Sean McDermott.

I had Kevin Stefansky. I know that we just moved him, so I'll move on from there. I would say John Harbaugh, Dennis Allen, Rahim Morris, Dan Quinn, and Todd Bowles will be my list of guys that kind of serve as adults in the room. I like it. Austin, what do you think about this? I had a tighter list for my adults in the room. I had Harbaugh there, John Harbaugh specifically. I had Mike Tomlin in here.

I also had Demico Ryans, which I know Deontay you probably have in Scheme Lord. The reason I have him here is I do think that Houston desperately needed an adult in the room. And maybe he doesn't have the experience to be that. Maybe he's more valuable as a defensive play caller as a scheme lord on that side. I still feel like what he's been able to do, and talking with former PFF or Bobby Sloick, who's the OC there. It's like he has a standard that he's setting that I think Houston wasn't used to fairly before like all this stuff happened.

I think D'Amico and what he's done to like establish a standard, establish a presence culture-wise, both and like connecting with the players too. Like I don't know. D'emico to me is like one of the more impressive young coaches in the NFL because he can fit in a lot of these buckets. Yeah. Every one except for placeholder, right? Like D'emiko, former Houston Texan, a player's coach that can be the raw, raw,

without running up and down the stadium steps like Sala, all performative and shit. Like, I think that D'Amico can legitimately be just like that chief morale officer, but in like a much more stable, quieter way, he can be a scheme lord and really turn it up as a defensive play caller. He was revered across the entire media cycle in terms of what he was doing as a defense play caller in San Francisco. And then obviously here are the adult in the room, like establishing a standard and a culture as quickly as he has, I think is truly incredible.

I think that it gets underrated because C.J. Stroud was so good, and I think a lot of people pour praise on Stroud for like reinventing that team and maybe bringing them back. But I think what Ryan's did to stabilize first year head coach with the first year office play call on a first year quarterback, right? On a team that like had free agent castaways for most of the roster, but he's been able to elevate a lot of those guys too. So I don't know. I think D'Amico Ryan's could probably fit into a lot of these groups. And then the other guy I had here was Rahim Morris. And I'm happy to see that you had Rahim Morris here as well.

I think he is going to be that adult in the room for Atlanta. And, you know, finally, like, I think brings some stabilizing presence. The worry I have there and, like, I don't think he's a placeholder. I know Atlanta chose him over Belichick. I think that they have faith in him being, like, a long-term answer for them. The worry I have is, obviously, when things don't hit, when things don't, if things don't go well with Kirk Cousins or first-year office to play call or another former PFFer and Zach Robinson, do, how quickly do they start to look at Rahimor? Morris or do they give him the full? Like, because then, I don't know.

I guess Fontno is probably the first guy to blame there in Atlanta if things start going wrong and maybe they commit to Rahim Morris. I think the Atlanta, like, whose first to fall conversation is interesting. I don't think it's Rahim Morris. So I do think he's the adult in the room. Here's what I would say to your latter point about Rahim Morris and Kirk cousins. I would say if things were to go sideways with Kirk, I think what that does is it just accelerates the timeline on evaluating Rahim Morris to an uncomfortable degree, right?

Because I think that if anything goes wrong with Kirk, everybody, the initial look is going to be, well, you went and you got Michael Pennick. So he better hit right, right now. And I think that that ultimately would decide the tenure. So I do think that that's fair for Rahim. I think it would probably be a pretty quick drop to placeholder. Or it would be easy to look at him in a placeholder type of way, I think if something went wrong with either of the quarterbacks that were brought in this offseason. To your point about D'Amico, I think, Austin, you made the point about D'Amico more as like, like a tone setter, right, a culture setter in Houston. And I think that does resonate with me for as much as I think about him as a quote-unquote scheme lord type. And maybe I'm more attached to him or the reason why I'm fascinated with him probably has a little bit more to do with defense schematically. I do think when NFL films is doing the mini-doc, you know, 10, 15 years for now, if everything goes right and Houston makes a Super Bowl or they play in multiple AFC championship games, the story that they're going to be telling about D'Amico is the fact that he stepped in,

when it seemed like this organization could not retain a head coach. They could not find a quarterback to replace Deshaun Watson. They had no idea where the organization was going. There was all these issues. You know, we weren't sure about how much power team president and GM and all that and whether or not, you know, this generation of the McNair family was going to be able to hold this thing afloat, that he was able to step in and kind of set them on the right track. So I do think it's fair to look at him maybe more as an adult in the room,

even though it's still early in his head coaching tenure because of that, right? we're going to be talking about him as a culture and tone setter, probably more than what we're going to talk about in terms of like pressure packages and being a part of this split safety zone defense phenomenon that we've seen in the NFL for the last few years. But so far, you feel like that's more defining of him. That's how I feel. I feel like he's like a chief morale officer or adult in the room in training,

but it still does feel like the number one calling card is the defense. Yeah, I would say so. I would say so. I think that right now, I mean, that's the reason why he was hired, right? I mean, we obviously heard about it from Fred Warner, Drey Greenlaw, the guys he was working with directly at that position in terms of like, hey, there's more to him than what we think about in terms of just drawing up cool stuff that maybe Robert Sala wasn't doing beforehand. It was not like you guys don't understand the commitment that he is engendered here from Nick Bosa, from this entire defensive line, the way that we get to the football, how we pursue, how we communicate. that's not just us being veterans in this defense. That is his communication directly that's creating that environment for us. So I do think that it's fair to say that, and maybe those two things are linked for now. Because we know, because of what we've learned of him schematically, I think that that has kind of given us a window into who he is as a leader.

So that that'll kind of be interesting to see how that story continues to develop and how much credit, quote unquote credit you get as a defensive coach when you have maybe a franchise quarterback already. in the mix and you're not the offensive play caller. So I don't know how much credit or where that will change the context to how we talk about his head coaching career going forward. Austin, where did you land on, I don't think we've talked about Dennis Allen. I don't think we've talked about Dan Quinn. I don't think we've talked about Todd Bowles. I hit all three of those guys in the placeholder tier.

I'm not super high on Dennis Allen. I'm not, you know, I find myself pulling my hair out with Todd Bowles, fourth down decision making, a lot of the timeout, and some of that stuff. I worry about what he is doing as a head coach there. And I think that if the Bucks had it as bad of a season, I think as many people expected last year, he wouldn't be still coaching in Tampa Bay.

Though I do think he's been a stabilizing presence for the ship in there since Brouserians left kind of abruptly. I don't think he's like a long-term solution that the Bucks are thinking about. And I feel very similar about Dan Quinn, honestly. like, I don't know. I think the shirt is still the most notable thing Dan Quinn has done in Washington and could be with this whole racist commander's shirt. And I think that tells you all you need to know.

Sometimes the book covers enough. I don't know necessarily if he's someone that, like, you could even call an adult in the room with that or even a scheme ward or chief morale officer or what it would be. I don't know. They feel like placeholders until they do something. I don't think that Washington is going to be successful because of Dan Quinn.

I don't think the Bucks are successful because of Todd Bowles. I think the reason the bucks were successful last year is what Dave Canales was able to do with Baker Mayfield. Now, obviously, Canalysis is in Carolina. And then with Dennis Allen,

I still think that the Saints are, Dennis Allen's a placeholder or is placeholder. Like, he might be the captain of that category because the person who has the most sway in New Orleans continues to be, my boy Mickey Loomis, who is the deciding factor on how good that team is every single year.

that he continues to pull from the future with the cap situation and that kind of puts this team in purgatory. So I have all three of those guys in placeholders, which I think I overstuffed my placeholder category. But think about the turnover in the league. Like, I think... Yeah, no, I think it's fair. Yeah, 25 to 30% of the league is going to be out

in terms of the head coaches in the next two years, and that might be putting it low. I bet you're like almost 40% of the league has gone in every two years. I'll throw a couple more up for debate. Either for placeholder or I think these guys, you know, in between adults in the room, Chief Morale officers, maybe how do you think about it?

But Doug Peterson, Mike McCarthy, any consideration in the placeholder or adult in the room categories, Austin? I have Peterson as placeholder. If Lawrence is good,

he'll stay. If Lawrence is bad, he'll go. I think it's that simple. And I think I knew that as soon as he delegated offensive play calling duties to press Taylor.

That was an unmitigated disaster. I am begging Doug Peterson to be a scheme word, but I agree with you. He's like, he doesn't want to be. Exactly. I think that he is a placeholder for Trevor Lawrence. Like if Trevor Lawrence plays well, and he was a placeholder when he was the adult in the room

by default when he replaced Urban Meyer. But what, and now bulky, I think, has way more sway on that team success. He also a little bit had that role in Philly. I was going to say, I think that he borrowed that reputationally from the time in Philadelphia and helping them get through moving on. from Chip Kelly. That's well. Doug Peterson.

I like Doug Peterson, but Doug Peterson also borrowed reputationalally for calling a trick play one time in the Super Bowl. Well, that's a hard thing about having this conversation, right, is that it's hard to say some of these things without sounding

like you're hinting at like being displeased with guys. I would say like, with Doug Peterson, the sales pitch when he's hired is adults in the room. I think that the consideration now with a couple of years

the distance between the Urban Meyer regime is that the bar was in hell. So literally if you could just get everybody, if you could just herd the cats that were, you know, just wild in Jacksonville, you were going to get a certain level of credit for getting things back on track. But I think that scheme lord and placeholder is probably the two categories I would think a little bit more about with Peterson because all of this is going to come down to whether or not Trevor Lawrence is a quarterback that they need them to be. And I think obviously, you know,

it's going to be under much more of a magnifying glass with the extension being made. It's clear now like, hey, you're going to need to get top six to ten quarterback play. of this guy without the caveats of, oh, he would have been so much better if not for the dropped interceptions. Oh, it would have been so much better if the offensive line stays healthy. He would have been so much better if they had a consistent run game. Like, I think that the runway on that is a little bit, you know, has obviously expired. And not all of that is his fault. Some of that is made because of how awful the Urban Meyer year was that he kind of has,

that he inherited such a bad situation. But it is ultimately going to come down to what he is in terms of scheming and developing Trevor Lawrence and making sure that he is as effective and not as risk prone, whether it's sacks, turnovers, you know, are just like bad luck, you know, for as for as little control as he has over it, ultimately he's going to have to own the results of that. And I think the same thing exists for Mike McCarthy. You know, contract year for Dak Prescott, so it's going to be a similar kind of context that we just talked about with Doug Peterson. And nobody is going to care about anything other than whether or not Dak Prescott is an MVP candidate again. And if this

defense is going to be good enough for them to compete in January. And those are things that for as much or little control as he may have, depending on how you look at his involvement and calling the offense and designing it and what he's willing to change on, what he's gone back to, you know, that that's a little bit more reminiscent of his Green Bay days. And then ultimately how much he has to own with making the Mike Zimmer hire. To me, this is like, this is a one-year job for both he and Peterson. And the way that we're going to talk about them in their tenure is going to come down to whether or not you're able to make contenders out of these two organizations.

When Mike McCarthy tried to make the Texas Coast offense happen, retroactively, I banned him from the scheme word category. I didn't know it at the time because I didn't know we would be doing this podcast, but I do believe that that's disqualifying. You could also never be a chief morale officer if your branding as bad as Texas Coast offense or whatever the hell that was. You have to be a good marketer as well, and he just doesn't have it. I think that if the Jags missed the playoffs this year,

bulky, Peterson are gone, gone. Like, as quick as day, this is gone. And then with the Dallas Cowboys... Are you predicting a Trent bulky firing? That's a dangerous game, my friend. I think that I think that I could see it. If the Jags, after paying Trevor Lawrence, all the money that they have,

if they missed the playoffs this year, I would be shocked if Balkey and Peterson are still there in a shit. I don't see the logic. I just... That man's got some stanging... It would be a disaster. Power. Yeah, yeah.

I think the thing I'll say with McCarthy, I think that entire Dallas Cowboys team is on a one-year flyer, right? I mean, like, Dak Prescott's on a one-year contract. In a lot of pieces, that is literally true. Right. Yeah, yeah. They, they, the whole, like, we're all in for this year, the thing that Jerry Jones has said, like,

a hundred times outside of his doodles and, like, revealing their draft plans and all that kind of stuff. I do feel that. I think Jerry's like, this is it for them, and it might be, I don't know. I'm not predicting this. I'm just saying, like, Jerry is the oldest, general manager quote in the league.

He's two months older than Joe Biden. Is Jerry also done after this year in terms of maybe delegating to Stephen Jones? I don't know. I don't know. I think Dallas has like one year left of what they're doing currently before they need to change it up pretty bigly as well. I can't tell if you're hinting that Jerry Jones is going to die? No, no, no.

No, no. Not a grave for Jerry. No, no. I'm not saying that. I'm saying every. I mean, we're all going to die some. day, as you've made us completely aware of on earlier iterations of this podcast. Even, even Cowboys hang up their boots, okay? Jerry Jones is old, very old. The oldest GM in the

league by like 16 years. But what you meant by that is if he's going to get tired of Stephen Joe, like, if he doesn't see results, he's going to step in and be like, you know what, I'm, I've delegated too much. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. Dallas is going to be one of the more interesting stories this year because I think if they, they win like 10 games miss and don't win a playoff game, I think it all could blow up, like every single thing. Even the star, maybe. I don't know.

They could go logo changer. The Dallas Cowboys have not won, have not advanced beyond the divisional round since Troy Aikman did it in 1994. The first decision Jerry Jones made was drafting Troy Aikman number one overall. Like, Jerry Jones has done one thing and it was Akeman. And then obviously some other things since then,

Irvin and Emmett Smith, blah, blah, blah. But like literally since that decision, he is not, like the Cowboys have not been relevant deeper beyond the divisional round? I just don't know. I think at a certain point you got to hang them up. You got to hang them up.

You don't have it. You don't have it. Okay. So I think we're landing is that Mike McCarthy Mike McCarthy placeholder. Placeholder, sure. Everyone's a placeholder.

It's okay. There can be a lot of placeholders. I think that's a takeaway from this exercise. Like it's, you know, NFL, not for log. Nothing is guaranteed. I mean, that's just the truth of the matter, right?

Is that all these guys, a lot of these guys are one terrible year away from being dropped, you know? So I just love the idea of Austin kind of positioning Jerry and Stephen Jones is like that final scene in no country for old men where Jerry gets to play as Tommy Lee Jones talking to the younger sheriff about how I just can't hack it in the modern world anymore. Even cow always hang up their boots. Can I re-clary a stat? Jerry Jones is 81 years old.

He's one month older than Joe Biden and 21 years older than every other GM in the league. at least 21 years older. If Stephen Jones was named the GM, he'd be the second oldest GM in the league. It's time. At a certain point, it's time. It's time to, you know, maybe, you know, hang them up. I don't know.

Like, I think that it might be time. And if they're going to all in for this year, if it doesn't pan out, it's time. Yeah, Dave, a couple months ago, Austin showed up to a pod meeting and just like, apropos of absolutely nothing. goes, really worried about how when I die, my grandkids might look me up,

and all they might see is my mock drafts. I don't want my grandkids are remembering me for my mock drafts. And it was just like an unbelievable energy to kick off a meeting with. Just like an unhinged vibe to start the day. What's funny is I thought about that because, you know, for whatever reason I was thinking about Robin Williams, this is going to connect. And I was like, when Robin Williams died, which is a more tragic.

They could go, the kids of Robin Williams could go back and watch Goodwill Hunting or like any movie Robin Williams has been in and be like, oh my God, my dad absolutely cooked. When I died, they're going to be like, Raynor's mock draft 3.0. Trade up. And it's like, God damn. He's given it the worst thing ever. So you're like, oh no, yeah, your dad used to do this stuff. and it's like all horrible. Like I wish I just had a little bit,

you know, I got to still find my, my legacy here. And I hope it's not a mock draft. That's what I'm saying. I hope it's something closer to Google hunting. I don't even know how to interface. I don't even know how to interface.

All right. All right. I think, well, so here's the transition. I do feel that the chief morale officer category is the Austin Gale official category. Without a doubt.

Because again, we did have. have like a rational way of explaining this category and then somehow in the doc, it now reads, vibes king, guardian at the gate, culture eat strategy for breakfast, delegator attitude,

and Rara. I'm almost tempted to have Austin. Austin, says that to himself every morning. Well, kick it off. I'll kick it off. Jonathan Gannon is in this tier. I think the things that we've seen,

did you take the bus today? I also think that you can't. keep Sean McDermott out this tier. Okay? If you're spending your time crafting speeches, one of them, and this is all, according to the reporting of Go Along, Tyler Dunn, go check that out. One of them being about a woman who drowned in Niagara Falls

and the other one being about, obviously, the attackers or hijackers from 9-11. If you are crafting speeches, you are a morale officer. Are you a good one? It's hard to say. He's also, like, I think, on his last legs, too, with the firings of offensive coordinator and promoting Babbage and

and what's this team going to look like without Gendorsi and moving on from Diggs and Davis. I think that McDermin's a little scary, but he's a morale officer. If you're crafting speeches like that, you're a morale officer. I think Dan Campbell is like the prototypical one here. The number one, the number one, right? Dan Campbell is like number one in this tier. Like it's the reason why some of these guys exist.

Some hires in the NFL are looking at Dan Campbell, like, damn. Like, wow, we could maybe have this like players coach connective piece and then figure out everything else after that. Antonio Pierce, I think, is trying to, be a Dan Campbell in Las Vegas taking a team that has been horrible for the last two decades plus on vibes alone and cigars in the locker room and mini basketball hoops and all that kind of stuff. I also put dayball in here only because I went to Giants Camp one of the, I think his second year or no, maybe his first year. And I remember he is constantly making himself heard.

And I feel like he is a loud and wants to be a part of like the morale and wants to be a part of building the culture. I remember that week one game where Daniel Jones threw a pick and he's screaming at him in the face. He wants to be this loud, rah-rah type. Of course, I got Jimmy in here. And then I finish with Robert Sala. Jimmy. If you're doing the stadium sprints up and down beforehand and you're buffer than hell, I think you are trying to give off a vibe, be a guardian at the gate.

And I keep going back to the HBO Hard Knocks for like, I feel like so much of what we saw in that is like him, really just trying to like drive culture and drive energy. And I think, we have to have an intervention over guardian of the gate. I love it. That really means anything. It doesn't. It doesn't.

No, the only reason it's in there is Antonio Pierce, during the draft. He was like, Telesco is going to go. I'm just the guardian at the gate to make sure no one gets in this lockering. I think it's good. I think it's good.

We've talked about it 600 times since. I just, at what gate? The gates of heaven or hell or wherever the hell. or wherever the hell he's protecting. I don't know. He's the gate. All right.

He's the gate people. Okay. A couple points here. I get what you're saying about Daibel. I would say that most reporting coming out of Giants world these days indicates that Daible's attitude does not typically go over super well. I do feel that to be chief morale officer, you have to be like a, you have to be a little bit conciliatory.

You have to be a little bit of a consensus builder. and not Daibald does not seem to totally have that. That was very diplomatic. Saul I get the vibe.

I do feel like he belongs more in place a little bit but I don't mind that in and of itself. Who else did you put here? There was one other that I thought was crazy. Sean McDermott

or are you a little upset by Sean McDermott? Sean McDermott. Having, doing weird analogies in team meetings. I respect the grind. Might be something that some chief morale officer type coaches do, but it does not inherently, like,

Sean McDermott's attitude is like generally pretty restrained. I almost wonder if he goes out on these weird limbs because he's not really fundamentally, like, uh, he's kind of like, and I don't know that you hear players talk about Sean McDermott in a way that feels Chief Morale officer to me. I'm happy to boot up a letter.

I really think you're resting a lot on one and a half infamous press conference mistakes. I don't feel that that's right. I respect a speech crafter. Okay, if you're going to spend some time, crafting speeches. If neither of those things had happened, if he had never given either one of those speeches,

is where would you put Sean McDermott? Probably adult in the room, but you can't put that guy as the adult in the room after crafting 9-11 hijacker speeches? No, he's trying to be something else. He's not trying to be the adult in the room here. That guy is like making up mythology. I can't do it.

Was that those stories did much for morale at the time. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. Can I get one more? The reason I really wanted to. hit on the Dan Campbell of this. Dan Campbell, in his first season with Detroit, I remember it was very common to talk about his against the spread record.

Right? I think a lot of people are like, oh, my God, like, he's like constantly in games. His team's never giving up and they're constantly like overlooked by the markets or whatever. And that's great. It was a bottom 10, they had a bottom 10 offense and a bottom three defense that year. They were horrible with Jared Gough. They were horrible.

Anthony Lynn was the OC. And they, he fired Anthony. in and promoted Ben Johnson from, I think he was tight-ends coach to OC, and now, like, every year since Ben Johnson's had, like, three or four plus high coaching opportunities, I think that gets a little bit underrated in the Dan Campbell stuff, and that, like, the whole, I won't even say the word I'm going to say, because I think it gets brought up every time Dan Campbell gets brought up. I'm not going to freaking say it. But, like, his, like, aura and his, like, whatever gets, like, forces people into, like,

yeah, he's this wrong, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, he also made, like, a very, very good hiring decision. Like he fired Anthony Lynn and promoted Ben Johnson. I think it's the only reason, not the only reason. But with Ben Johnson, arguably, is more crucial to the success of the Detroit Lions over the last couple years than even Dan Campbell, given the success of the offense and how much he's literally changed what was a throwaway quarterback in that trade. Like if Anthony Lynn is still the OC and Dan Campbell for whatever reason, maybe something similar to why Gray Grohan was there as long as he was in Baltimore or why Matt Canada was there as long as he was in Pittsburgh. for whatever reason, if he kept Anthony Lynn in that spot, I think the lions are a laughing stock,

a loud, fun, exciting, laughing stock. And what can't get underrated, and I think it's an interesting part of this entire exercise is, like, who coaches hire and who they surround themselves with oftentimes dictates the success they have in the league as well. It's oftentimes coaches who are unwilling to move out of their comfort zone

and hire other people that don't last long in this league or are completely dependent on the play of their quarterbacks. Well, the thing that I love about, about Dan Campbell. And the points you just made, Austin, is I think that the chief morale officer piece of the way that we talk about and really does undersell who he is as a program builder, even going out and getting Aaron Glenn, right? And I think that that's something, you know, when you look at this list, I have four names on my list. Dan Campbell, just like you, Antonio Pierce, Jim Harbaugh and Gerard Mayo. I think that these are guys that are probably

pretty easy to identify as this being the role that we see them fitting. I think for all four them, the interesting thing is that they're all kind of replacing people who we've viewed to be like very cold, calculated, maybe not the best at engendering a lot of inspiration within the locker room, maybe we ran a foul of a couple relationships with key players or people in the front office, whatever the case may be. I think that what is separated Campbell, what we know to have separated Campbell is the fact that he was able to identify that Ben Johnson had potential as an offensive play caller, right, and that he could maybe, you know, be part of this reclamation project that they've taken on with Jared Gough.

I think that with the other three, and maybe less so for Jim Harbaugh, because we've seen him do it with Colin Kaepernick, we saw him do it with Alex Smith, we saw him do it at Michigan, right? So I think that he walks in the door with a certain cachet as a program builder, and then obviously borrowing just from the power of that last name and what we know of what the Harbaugh family has done in terms of program building in San Francisco and Baltimore during Jim's time at Michigan. I think that anybody who lands in this position, whether or not you stick there, whether

are not you're successful. Actually probably has a lot more to do with what you do with making hires and developing players than it does, you know, you're posturing at press conferences or what you see in a heart knocks clip or what social media clip comes out, you know, of a very fiery rah-rah speech, right? Like, I don't know if being, if fitting in this archetype of coach really says much about your quality as a coach in the way that we can look at a scheme lord and say, hey, we know that they're going to generate a bunch of explosive plays or they're always going to get high. high pressure rate, you know, and get after the quarterback.

I think here, the delegation piece of it really is going to determine how we talk about all these guys, right? Like, I think about Antonio Pierce, like, this look at the higher. There's a lot riding on that. What he is is, as an offensive play call. Like, there's a lot to be drawn from that and how we will feel about Pierce in the coming years, right? So I think that that's probably the reason why this list is what it is.

I try to look at it through the context of what is going to look like if it's successful. and if they're successful, I'm probably going to remember them a little bit less for their speeches and their general demeanor and probably a little bit more for the fact that they made the right hires that kind of confirmed what we see in terms of what's front facing

and the speeches and how you position yourself and how they're covered in this sport. I think there's like a fundamental way where to me, adult in the room is about, like it's sort of about organization and chief morale officer is about people skills. And that translates really well to hiring and how you sort of surround yourself and who you surround yourself with.

I'm curious, DeAndte, how you thought about Mayo, because I think that's a really interesting one. I think, well, Mayo is interesting because he comes from the Patriots Tree, right? So I don't want to pitch him as somebody that he may not be because I don't think that New England is interested in bringing him in to succeed Bibbaalichick. If they don't identify some of the same traits that they thought was very valuable while Bill was there. otherwise they probably go with an entirely different coaching tree and bringing them in the building. So that's the number one thing. But I do think when you think about him, the hires, getting a lot younger with the staff, trying to commit to turn in this organization around, bringing in a new quarterback. All the messaging that I've seen from New England, I think, has a lot more to do with.

Let's infuse some new energy in here, year one, and see where that lands us. Let's take some of the new ideas or some of the things that maybe while Bill was here, We all said that we wanted to implement, and it just didn't because Bill is the ultimate thumbs up, thumbs down guy here. Now that that guy's out of the picture, maybe we can implement some new ideas. Maybe they can be a little bit more modern offensively. Maybe they can handle their player relations differently. I think that that's something that we can all say that we expect to see continue as long as drop Mayo is there. That's going to be a big point of emphasis for the organization.

That's kind of why I have him here. And I think that you can make an argument for dropping them in a few different places. But for me, I think that whether or not he's successful isn't going to come down to how well he remembers Bill Belichick's defense as a player and as a defensive coach or whether or not he's making the most inspired roster moves or if he can win these battles with whoever they end up deciding is the team president and GM and whoever gets the final say on personnel. I think a lot of this is going to come down to player relations and keeping New England from becoming an organization that is only identified by the character. traits of the guy that's not coaching there anymore. I think that's really smart. And I think that's right in the sense that I think what Mayo's job is fundamentally is to continue a lot of the overall structure or like a lot of the tenets of the Belichick era

in New England. But to do it in a way that's done because no one person can replace Bill Belichick that fosters collaboration, which was, I would say, not a defining characteristic of how Bill Belichick ran things. I mean, that's the ultimate control freak. That's the ultimate, like, there is a super, super small and siloed circle of decision makers. And now, I think the key difference between Belichick-era Patriots

and Mayo era patriots is that there is this, like, we're going to keep our doors open and have people be brought. brought into decision-making in a way that they didn't used to be. So I think I agree with putting him here because I think that's really, that's the chief objective as he moves into coaching. All right, let's wrap things up with the scheme lords. I think at this point, this one is going to be pretty straightforward, although, you know, I shouldn't speak too soon.

Deonti, you want to give us the list? Yeah, so my scheme lords are Matt LaFleur, Zach Taylor, who I know we've discussed, Mike McCarthy, who we've discussed, D'Meico Ryan, Doug Peterson, Mike McDaniel, Kevin O'Connell, Shane Steichen, Dave Canales, and Mike McDonnell. And to me, I think on my list, outside of D'Miko Ryans, and Mike McDonald, D'Amico Ryan specifically, we talked about being maybe an adult in the room. These guys, I think they got the stamp as potential head coaches and now being current head coaches because of the work that they've done with quarterbacks,

the work that they've done with, you know, creating the modern context of offense that we know about now, and that's what's going to, I think, ultimately define what we remember of them as coaches, whether they're successful in these stints or not. Even Mike McDaniel, who I think you can maybe make an argument that based on his demeanor, the way that he thinks about, you know, his relationships with players, you can maybe make an argument that he might fit in a few different places.

I think ultimately what we really care about is, you know, bringing new motions to the game. I think that's how he builds morale with his players. Like I think one of the most interesting things that Mike McDaniel has talked about is, being a, you know, a skinny kid from Yale, the way that he earns respect is by saying, I'm going to put you in such good positions

that you are going to succeed, you are going to make money, you are going to win games, and that that is sort of like the basis of his building of rapport with the people around him. That's funny you brought that up because I feel like a quote that stands out to me, I think it was one of the hard knocks

or one of the digital media teams was like, I'm here to make, he said something along the lines of like, I'm here to make you money. So that way I make more money. And I'm like, that's not a chief morale officer. That's for sure. I don't think Dan Campbell's saying anything remotely close to that to his players. I think he's still saying like,

this game's about white knuckles and blood. And like, well, wow, Mike McDaniel's like, you know, I want money and you want money. I'm going to make some cool ass plays. I'm going to make a ton of money. But I disagree that it can't, that I do think that he's fundamentally a scheme Lord because he's he's he's that's where that ability comes from right he's saying like I'm so smart about this that I'm gonna I have this to offer you but I I disagree that that's not like morale building

because I don't think he's like you're just in this to make a buck me too buddy like let's get to the end of the day I just think it's like I think there are avenues that Dan Campbell you know because he's played because of of who he is that he that he that he that he that he's that are open to him to say, let's go bite some kneecaps. I don't think Mike McDaniel can get up there and talk about biting some kneecaps. So I think he's pursuing the avenue that's open to him,

which is self-aware, which is smart. But I don't agree that that doesn't build morale. It also could just be a more modern way to connect genuinely, right? Versus like I think Dan Campbell sees it as a way to connect, but I don't know how modern it is to kind of say that, like, to continue to use the warrior fighter, soldier, tropes that have been connected with football forever.

I mean, like, you know, Deonti, you're a current coach. You've played before. I played in high school. Like, those have been used forever. Like, just calling it like a battlefield, you know, a war. I feel like McDaniel's not doing that. And I think that it's honestly, you're right, Nora, and that like it's another way to build morale

and like talking about the game a little bit more literally as a business and some of that stuff. and I wonder how players connect with that, honestly. Because I think the players right now are like, we win games and our offense is good. Borderline historic. That works for me. I don't care for what he says or anything,

you know, vaping on the sidelines or whatever. That works for me versus like Camel, I feel like has built through a lot of those like more traditional tropes, like rider dies no matter what. That locker room will live. And I think they say that. We'll die for you. Like versus I don't know if the dolphins have that same energy

just because I don't think they're using that same like leadership style. I mean, the confirmation of that is a tension between Mike McDaniel, Vic Fangio, all the last year, right? Like, I think that we think of Vic Fangio as, like, very much fitting into the old paradigm of, this is the way that I look at coaching. Football is this, right? Like, sophisticated warfare, all of those types of tropes that you might hear from an older, you know, more crotchety coach. I think that Dan Camel has maybe taken some of those things, those old paradigms that have existed forever, and maybe applied it in a way that resonates.

with a certain personality type, right? And I think that that's reflected in the way that they play. I would say you could not take either Dan Camel or Mike McDaniel from their current situations and have them swap and get the exact same results, I don't think. I think that the Lions are specifically built to play that bully ball style, and that's the messaging that comes down from on high.

I think Brad Holmes is 100% bought into that. That obviously personifies Dan Campbell. And when you hear that team talk about the way that they try to approach the game, I think that it emanates, right, from the lines as an organization. So, well, Miami, right, I think when you hear about Tyreek Hill, when you hear Tua, when you hear Tuaa talk about Milo, when you hear Mike McDaniel, when you hear the way that they approach the way they think about football, they're not any less motivated, I wouldn't say, to go be as successful as possible. I just think that whatever those lovers are that you have to pull to create those connecting points are just a little bit different, right? And I think that, you know, you just couldn't drop one guy into another.

I don't know if it speaks, I don't know if it speaks, you know, ill of one approach. versus another as much as I think that Mike McDaniel has been really wise about not trying to present himself as something that he could not attain, right? Something that would not connect with the players in his locker room. Right. And all that, I think, kind of goes to the point of guys exist within multiple worlds, but ultimately the reason why Mike McDaniel can make that point to what Nora was saying is he can get on the whiteboard and show you, hey, this motion is going to force a defense to do this. we're going to run this route tree off of this, you're going to be open here and here. And then when you get the confirmation of that,

you know, that those tactics work on the field from your best players, now the buy-in is almost instant from there. So I do think that while he does have some merit as a motivator, ultimately the reason why it all works and comes together is because he can get on the whiteboard and beat out just about anybody in the NFL in terms of design. So I think where we land with Schemlord,

is we have, we have Malafleur. We, we moved Zach Taylor. We moved Mike McCarthy. I think ultimately, D'Amico has acquitted himself so well in his early tenure that he could be in a number of different categories, but I think ultimately belongs here. We did move Doug Peterson. McDaniel, O'Connell, Stuyken, Canales, McDonald,

I think definitely belong here. And we heard some arguments that I would make for, for McVeigh and Shanahan. here as well. Austin, do you have anything to add? No, I like where we have skiing more. I think with Stike and the, I'm excited to see him with Anthony Richardson. I want that for a full season. I want it for multiple seasons. I thought what he was doing with Anthony Richardson to start the year was impressive. And then I think they finished 11th in offensive EPA per drive in the weeks

they didn't have Anthony Richardson, which I think is impressive in that itself to make, to make do with the quarterback play that they had last year in Gardner, Muncher, mostly. So I like Stikein a lot. I'm excited to see him like kind of, like cement himself as a scheme lord. I didn't have Canales here. Um, just because I don't have the, I don't have faith in the Panthers, like, backing Canales after Bryce Young.

I think that it's, hey, you're coming to make Bryce Young work. If it doesn't, we're probably going to clean house across the board. Right. Like, you're like kind of a, you're kind of like a save us and Bryce Young or we're going to find like a completely new style and, and regime here. So, that's the only reason I didn't have Canalis here. I do think he did enough in Tampa Bay that he's earned it until further notice.

And maybe we'll be in a situation where the Panthers are so screwed up that it doesn't save him. But, you know, maybe we'll be talking about no one realizes it could be a lot worse. He's doing the best he can. And even if that doesn't ultimately help him, it'll still be true. All right. I think we did it, guys. let's maybe do we'll do some quick

wrap up takeaways and then we can get out of here. Deonti, I'm curious if anything, you know, as someone who coaches, as a coach, if anything stood out to you

doing this exercise just sort of about the nature of coaching. Also, what buck are you in? We gotta know what buck are you in? Yeah, great question. That's a great question. That's a great question. I would like to say,

I would like to say that I'm a cheats. morale officer type. I think on a more day-to-day basis, I'm probably closer to the scheme in the scheme lord kind of paradigm. I think a lot of that is obviously just like spending so much time around football guys

and studying all these things. I'm always fascinated in what the cutting-edge tactics are. So that's to answer that, to answer the second question. Nora, for what you asked me in terms of what stood out to me, I think I probably prepared myself before I really dug into this exercise

to maybe have an old, overload in one or two buckets and not much, if any, in others. And I think what I've realized is people get hired in certain contexts and then turn into something different, right? So like for Mike McDonald, who we didn't get to cover in detail, right? He's in Seattle now because of the work that he did defensively in Baltimore. But ultimately, you're following Pete Carroll. That's just as much a culture higher as it is a schematic one.

And people are going to care because of what Pete Carroll was as a culture center. what Mike McDonald's approach is going to be in setting the tone and the messaging that comes out of the organization, how he handles Gino Smith. So it's entirely possible that he could end up just being a placeholder if John Stryder is able to continue to accumulate power without Pete Carroll, right? He can land in an adult in the room or chief morale officer place as well if he hands off play calling and continues to like maybe borrow from Baltimore's tree to call the defense because he trusts in that and he's able to find. offensive coordinators at work, we'll see about Ryan Grub in Seattle. This is going to be his first time as an NFL play caller. So there's a lot, I think, that's up in the air when you get hired.

So I'm always kind of fascinated. You know, we talked about it with D'emico Ryan's. This will be a conversation with Dave Canales. These guys kind of in that first three-year span, whether or not what we thought of them when they got hired is actually reflective of the kind of job they need to do with where they land. I think that's really interesting. I think one of the things that stood out to me is,

I'm surprised by how few coaches ended up in the Chief Morale officer bucket. Because it's, you know, when you think of this sort of like Hollywood image of a football coach, that's what you get. But it kind of hit home that that, you know, maybe that style is in some ways coming back in a little bit in its own way. I mean, I think people look to the Dan Campbell example. I think Antonio Pierce, you know, I don't know if Antonio Pierce gets that job if Dan Campbell isn't who he is in Detroit. and doesn't have that success rebuilding that program. So maybe we're about, you know,

maybe if we did this in two years, it might look a little bit different. But I didn't have that many coaches in that category. And I'm, I was surprised by that. I wouldn't have anticipated that. I think you become a placeholder quick. If it doesn't work,

it's a chief morale officer. Yeah, yeah, it's a placeholder's league with how much turnover there is. I think I was surprised, Deonté, something there. I thought maybe you were kind of strong-arming the team that you coach into, you know, some decisions. I don't know. You seem like a guy that really wants to hold the crown. The other thing, and this is the, I did a lot of, not a lot, I did some digging into the Tomlin stuff because I found it interesting. The conversations

people have, you know, they haven't won't playoff games since 2016. As a head coach, everyone talks about he's never had a losing record. He just recently signed another extension. He's been with the team for, I think, 17 years with Big Ben. 65% winning percentage. Without Big Ben, 53%. With Big Ben, 8 and 9 in the playoffs.

Without Big Ben, 0 and 1 in the playoffs. High floor coach, I think what he's built in Pittsburgh has solidified them as like this consistent, consistent, consistent contender. It does, in my opinion,

like I think some people will call Mike Tomlin a top five coach in the league. Maybe someone even say a top three coach in the league. It just goes to show that even that good of a coach is nothing without a quarterback.

Now nothing is exaggerating, but like you're not... Yeah, those are strong words. It's so hard. I think it shows how hard it is. It shows how hard it is to be this like Andy Reid. Right? I mean, like, even like, like Andy Reid is such a good coach

and obviously so consistent, but like probably is not even talked about as a top two, three coach without my homes. And, you know, I think it also shows like how good Shanahan is where like they've had constant turnover and constant misses at the quarterback position. Yet they're, I think, the favorite to win the Super Bowl and the NFC. With Tomlin, I find the conversation interesting. And I think in this research, I'm like putting him as this maybe this adult in the room, this raw, raw guy. He's not a placeholder. That's for sure. But like, he's not the scheme board. He's someone that has managed to like maintain a culture and maintain a floor that is so,

so impressive. But honestly, has accomplished, I wouldn't say nothing, but literally has not won a playoff game without Big Ben. Has only been to the playoffs once without Big Ben.

That, to me, is crazy. Like, that feels crazy to me that, like, so much of his success was when Big Ben was in Pittsburgh, and I think that, I mean, think about Belichick. Think about Belichick.

Hold him in the same regard. Like, Belichick's not in the league. Belichick is like, decorator is one of the most decorated coaches ever. Maybe the best coach ever. He's not in the league. after what, two years without Tom?

He's gone, gone from the league. That to me is like, I mean, it just shows how like, again, I think I've said this multiple times, but like the quarterback position is so, so important and so linked to the head coach that it's almost impossible to evaluate without connecting the two. And that's why you have so many placeholders because is the quarterback goate or is he not?

And I don't know. I think the fact that Tomlin is still in the league, I think goes to show that, you know, Pittsburgh is committed to him and recognizes the floor, but like with Belchek out of the league already. with a couple of years or two or three years after Tom leaving, I think it's kind of insane. It is a quarterback league.

It is a coaching episode, but it is a quarterback league. All right. Austin, Deontay, thank you so much for doing this. This is fun. Enjoyed it. Hope you guys had a good time. That's it for us. Thank you to producer Carlos Chiroboga for his work on this episode.

And thank you to Connor and Evans and Arjuna Ramgapal for their additional production supervision. We'll talk to you soon.