The Ringer NFL Show - Chargers Make the Playoffs, Safety Over Competitiveness, Hackett the Fall Guy, and More Big Takeaways From Week 16 | Extra Point Taken

Episode Date: December 27, 2022

Ben and Sheil get together to share their reactions to the Chargers punching their ticket to the postseason with a win over the Colts on 'Monday Night Football'. They then discuss the news of Tua's concussion symptoms and the removal of Nathaniel Hackett as head coach of the Denver Broncos (9:21). Next, they warn us not to believe the spin coming from Arizona coach Kliff Kingsbury's camp and examine the widening championship race in the NFC (39:54). They end the pod with Sheil raving about the Viking's fan experience this season and Ben giving the weekly extra point (59:33). Hosts: Ben Solak and Sheil Kapadia Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mac Jones is ripped. Matt Patricia's calling plays. The Celtics are title favorites. And The Ringer has a new Boston show. I'm Brian Barrett, host of Off the Pike, the show covering all things Boston Sports. I'll have shows multiple times a week covering your favorite teams

and with your favorite ringer and local guests. Plus, maybe Bill will stop by to rant about the socks. Follow off the pike with me, Brian Barrett, now on Spotify. To Extra Point Taken, I'm Sheila Kapati. As always, joined by Ben Solak. We come to you every week after. After Monday night football, the Chargers beat the Colts, 20 to 3, punched their ticket to the AFC playoffs.

We also had some coaching news today with Nathaniel Hackett. We had some injury news. We have a lot to get to Benjamin. We even have the three Sunday games that have not been talked about on the ringer NFL feed so far. So we're going to get to all of it. Benjamin, how we doing? You want to open with 19 to 16 overtime win for the division-winning Tampa Bay Buccaneers

over the 4-10, Trace McSorley. Cardinals. That we want Sunday games, baby. Woo. You all, sorry. 51 to 14, Baker Mayfield, Rams, four win team, up 17 points in the first quarter to the Russell Wilson Broncos.

Yeah, Christmas games, baby. I'm good. How are you? There was really no need for them. I'm with you. I think that's what you're saying underneath. But yes, there was really no need for those. Let's start with the game tonight.

You're up first. Like I said, Chargers get in 20 to 3. If you're new to the show, we each go back and forth, three points a piece and then Ben will finish us with an extra point tonight. But Ben, what was your take on this Monday night game? Chargers performance over Indianapolis. Chargers have now secured a playoff spot, which is exciting stuff.

I think that in terms of teams that I like to see make the wild card round, I like teams that have the ability to get into and win shootouts, right? Give me exciting games in the wildcard round. Give me the chance to put up 30 points to match Patrick Holmes as 30 points or Josh Allen's 30 points. immediately, you know, like, we get like the Titans in there, you know, you get a defense in there. It feels a little bit sketchy. So I like the fact that the charges are in there. The charges have largely gotten this run on defense. So defense is going to play well.

So there's a lot to break down. You don't really want to do what Chargers defense take is doing good after they get to play Nick Foles in this Colts team, though. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't feel sporting. Feels, it feels like, you know, playing your little brother in basketball. It's unnecessary. So here's the direction I'm going to go with this. If the Chargers are legit, if the charges are to be taken seriously.

it is once again the result of a healthy second half of the season for Keenan Allen. How important is Keenan Allen to this offense, man? Every single time we start to get down the stretch. When they got off the by week last year, they started targeting Keenan Allen more heavily on first down, more heavily on second down and improved their passing game. They were one of the worst teams in EPA per play on first down. They became one of the best teams in EPA per play on first down. Well, lo and behold, we had two Keenan Allen games to start the season, right?

He had four targets in week one went down with injury. He had two targets in week seven against Seattle and then was unable to play for the next couple of weeks. Hamstring injuries are tough, especially when you've had a lot of hamstring injuries, which is the case with Keenan Allen. With this Colts game included over the last six weeks now, Keenan Allen's had over nine targets in three of the last four weeks. He had 14 targets against the Raiders, 14 targets against the dolphins,

12 catches for 92 yards in that game against the Colts, which I did not have the correct box score up. And that's why I couldn't remember who they played. 11 receptions for 104 yards on 14 targets. Keenan Allen has become the target funnel that we expected him to be in this offense, that this offense was sorely lacked. And while far be it from me to say, the Chargers offense is fixed. The Chargers offense is fine.

The Chargers offense is good. We are not there. We should be there. We're not there. It's very clear that even though it's not as evident how much this passing game relies on Keenan relative to guys like, oh, it's very clear. how much this passing game in Miami relies on Tyreek Hill, right? That's very obvious because of the explosives because of how good it is.

It was very evident last year how much the Packers' offense relied on Devante Adams because of the third downs. There was more clarity because those offenses were more explosive. But this offense for the Chargers really, really, really relies on Keenan Allen. To be that bucket, get our Troikman's calling him out for the soft spots between the zones, for all the short stuff to work. They just need a guy. He was really smart, great timing, reliable hands.

Always you set your clock to him, set your watch to him. him. That's Keenan Allen. So I think that as we try to wrap our mind around the nine and six chargers, the playoff bound chargers, what's real, what is. And I think the defense has legit stuff too. I think the offensive line has improved. I know that the last five weeks are given up a ton of sacks, but they're trusting them too much. They've given too much on their play. They've gotten better. It's just they're putting too much on their plate. There's stuff to talk about here. But I think the most important thing is that the Keenan Allen's back for this team. And the the charges team we saw in the first half of the year did not have Keenan. And then the passing game is

so much improved when he's in the building. I was wondering. if you were going to have some type of grand proclamation. You know, the Chargers of the team, nobody wants to play. The Chargers defense has turned a corner. Not after you beat the Nick Falls Colts.

I know my, I know my range. I was waiting. I was, oh, what's Ben going to do for Monday night football now that they're in the playoffs?

Just when you said that about the Chargers and I agreed with you. When you said, yeah, they're a team that could win in a shootout. Do you know the last time

they scored 30 points in a game? It was against the cheese, right? No, against the cheese. They had 27. Lost 30 to 27. So the Browns game? The Browns game, week five.

And it just continues to be a frustrating watch this Chargers team where you see the Herbert throws, where you see them in stretches. And you go, okay, maybe they could be dangerous. And then you look up and they have 17 points or they have 20 points or whatever. And so that, yeah, I didn't think you were going to say, hey, this Chiefs, this Chargers offense has turned a corner. I do agree with you. I think, you know, Ken and Allen and Mike, when both those guys, are on the field, it does feel different. It feels like they have more options.

It feels like they have different ways to solve problems with this offense. Because it's not a deep group. I mean, we saw it earlier in the season when those guys are out and you're going, who are they even throwing the football too? So if you're talking about a team that's getting healthy this time of year when a lot of teams are suffering injuries, I think the charges absolutely belong in that bucket. And we'll see with Joey Bosa. They said maybe he'll practice next week.

We'll see with Ray Sean Slater. But if nothing else, like the team we kind of expected and we, weeks one and two could be the team we actually see playing on wild card weekend. And I'm not going to go as far as to say they're going to win a playoff game. We'll see. We'll see what the matchup is and how they look at that point. But at least we're going to get to see a healthy team. And they're an entertaining team.

I'm happy they're in the playoffs one way or another. Either they're going to do something ridiculous to lose a game or maybe Herbert has like a surprise run in him in this year's playoffs. What I will say is you look at what they've done against the AFC playoff teams that they've faced this year. right they lost by three to Kansas City in Kansas City they lost by three to Kansas City at home against Kansas City but they've always played the Chiefs tight right both of those games if memory serves Herbert led a take the lead drive and then Mahomes let a screw you drive after you know late in the fourth quarter

they have played in back to back weeks the dolphins and the Titans who critically they may see is the four seed beat the Titans and a game that Ryan Tan Hill fully played and obviously as we know beat the dolphins as well this is where some of the defensive improvement I think starts to become visible the one AFC contending team that they have played this season that has firmly trounced to them is the Jacksonville Jaguars who the Chargers right now are like it's a 97% chance that are 5-6 seed per ESPN stats and info they're more likely to be a 5 seed than a 6 seed very very interested

to see a Chargers Jags week three rematch and how much both of those teams have changed the Jaguars won that game going heavy personnel and handing the ball off to James Robinson it's not available anymore. It has been a long season. It's quite different. And then that was when the charges were peaking on their offensive line injuries, right?

They had no ability to block anybody. And they've like, you know, Jamari's Saylor's taking over the position. Zion Johnson's gotten better. They've kind of settled into place. And so it'd be such a different game. But it's funny.

Like you look at how they match up against the AFC contenders. And you can talk yourself into the Chargers. Not saying I have. Not saying I'm going to say it on a podcast. Just saying you can if you want to. The one team that they might see in the playoffs, is like randomly the seven and eight Jaguars team.

You're like, okay, well, whatever. And then you remember that in week three, the Jaguars, just big boy, you're like, oh, no. So it's, uh, Jags Chargers is a really interesting four or five matchup if we get it. Titans Chargers not as much without Ryan Tanahill. That'll be weird. But it's a fun arc to watch for these two rising AFC teams. Five teams in the AFC are in the Bills, the Chiefs, the Bengals, the Ravens, and the Chargers.

Like you mentioned, we'll see who wins the AFC South. Jaguars are Titans. And then, of course, that last wildcard spot, dolphins, patriots, jets, Steelers, not out yet. Raiders, I think, have what, a 1% chance or something if 400 different things go their way. So that's how the AFC playoff picture is shaping up. All right. My first take is a more serious one. You know, I had a take about the dolphins and Tua from that game.

And then we got the news today about Tua. And so it's not like the most fun. thing to talk about, but it's just, it needs to be talked about that, that Tuatunga Vailoa needs the right people looking out for him over the next week, two weeks, month, and that includes himself, you know, which he started today with self-reporting the concussion symptoms, which I think is a huge thing, a huge story, because anyone you talk to, anything you read about, that's the thing that can really shift the concussion situation, whatever, whatever you want to call it, is players being honest, players looking out for each other,

coaches looking out for players, those things. Especially because, and this is so important to how we talk about this concussion for Tuotanga Vailoa, the first one, we all saw him get slammed into the turf. We all saw him stumble and get up, and then we saw him continue to play the rest of the game. And for the week, right,

they paid Sunday into Thursday, the way Thursday against the Bengals, we said, what was this? This is unbelievable. Did you see him get? This is incredible. This is horrible. This is horrible.

And then he gets slammed, the turf, you're getting against the Bengals, has the fencing response. And we are all affronted. We're all aghast. Your stomach turns over. I saw this happen to this player on Sunday. I'm seeing it happen to again on Thursday. How is the protocol failing? How is this not captured? How did nobody point this down and call this out? And then there was this week, these two weeks of heightened visibility. Everybody's wondering, right, this player got hit, that player got is he getting pulled. What's the red hat doing on the sideline? And then we get a little further away from that and our attention diver it somewhere else. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

However, to his third concussion, he throws the ball, he gets slammed to the ground, his head whiplashes onto the ground, there's no replay of the sack where we see it all happen. There's no discussion about the broadcast. We didn't notice. And it was in the first half, and they played the entire second half of the game.

And the spotters didn't notice, by the way, which serves as a reminder. It's so impactful. It is important that we continue to bring as much of a spotlight onto the NFL's concussion protocol. What steps are you taking? How are you identifying? How are you pulling players out of the game?

What are you doing when you pull them out of the game? Is this working? What change are not working? Let's talk about them. But it must be reminded. This is the exact player who started the conversation, getting a concussion the exact same way. Toa, like, whenever he goes to the ground,

he goes down really hard, the exact same way. And you can still miss it. There's no player and no context that has more concussion visibility than Tua Tungavala taking hits in the pocket. And you can still miss it. We can, we can, we can, we can, we can, we can't. We can't as much of a spotlight to that process as we can't as, as we have and as we'll continue to do. But it will be insufficient if players are not reporting symptoms.

And so the fact that Tua brings that in the middle of a playoff push is, is hugely important to continue to round out the concussion protocol. It's great news. He should be, it's not great news. I mean, he's, you know, suffering from a concussion. But you know what I mean? He should be absolutely commended for that. Like you said, I mean, this is a huge story in the NFL this year. Tua has suffered two established concussions, very likely, in my opinion, a third concussion

that Ben was just talking about. He takes the hit against Buffalo. The Dolphins say it's a back injury. He comes back. He plays the game. Then, as Ben said, on Thursday, he suffers the one that we all saw against the Bengals. And now it's week 16. That's two definite, maybe three in reality concussions over a 14.

week period. This man is 24 years old. And per Chris Nowinski of the Concussion Legacy Foundation, he said to his knowledge, no NFL player had been diagnosed with three concussions in a season previously. And so the first one, that first incident, the NFL changed their protocols after that to a very what seemed like a very common sense rule, that if a player is showing lack of balance, lack of stability, he has to sit out. Listen, there's no perfect answer with this stop. if it was very easy to diagnose and there was a test and you knew, okay. And so I don't want to kind of get on my high horse about this at the same time.

It's such an important issue. And again, 24 years old to be suffering from this. Like he's got to continue to go down the path. He went down today. The league, the NFL, the dolphins, everybody is going to have eyes on this situation. I'm not going to say, hey, he shouldn't play till X state because I don't know. I'm not, I'm not an expert in this field. So I don't like making those types of statements.

But I do think there is sort of this glimmer of positivity with some of the stuff we've seen over like the last month. And that's one, two, is self-reporting here. We saw the play where Devante Parker suffers the concussion and Nelson Aguilar's response, which I don't think we talked about on the podcast, but that he should be commended for, that he's waving to the sideline,

taking a knee being like, my teammate is not right here, stop the game and get him off the field. We saw that. We saw Kyle Shanahan had a quote a couple weeks ago, Charverius Ward passes the concussion protocol, doesn't go back in the game. They asked Shanahan about it. He said he talked to him.

He didn't feel right about Ward going back into the game. And it's really tricky because just because you pass the concussion protocol doesn't mean you're good. I mean, we've seen multiple players this year pass the protocol, come back in the game, and then Monday they get diagnosed with symptoms. And so it's just got to be everybody looking out for each other. know that's sort of a naive thought with the NFL for sure. But I like what I said. I like that I'm encouraged that Tua did what he did today.

I'm encouraged by what Mike McDaniel said, even though I can't say their organization has thoroughly handled the concussion issue. Great this year. But this is something we're just going to have our eyes on the rest of the season and into the offseason. Individuals, coaches, players, choosing concussion safety over competitiveness. is like, that's the tagline, right? That's the one sentence. That didn't happen 10, you know, years, five years ago, whatever.

I bet 10 years ago. It didn't happen two years ago, right? Where it was like, you got your bell wrong, find a way to get back in the game. If you got your bell wrong, it means you're making a tackle, catching a pass, running the football. It means you're doing something we need you to keep doing. You get back in the game, right? You clear the protocol. Okay, you're good.

The fact that we can have people not clear the protocol and still say, right, we're not going to send you back in because we're just not going to mess around with this. The fact that we can have a player who doesn't get flagged by the protocol but feels concussion symptoms that they've had previously, your second concussion is more dangerous than your first. Your third is more dangerous than your second, right? This is a compounding effect to my understanding of the science. So the fact that we can have a two-old player who's experienced concussion protocols,

and concussion symptoms, excuse me, say, I'm feeling this. I'm the quarterback of a team that's trying to make the playoffs, but I got to go through this protocol. that's hugely important. Like that when it comes to like, how is this going to work? How is a heightened awareness of fear of treatment of concussions going to manifest itself in the NFL? It's going to be when players, coaches, league fans all say, all, all concussions are more important

than competitiveness. We'd rather see a player safe from head injuries than see the player contribute to winning the game. Week one, week 18, ready to season postseason. This is the thing that matters. And so when you start to see coaches make the, these decisions. Players make these decisions and this message being both implicitly

and explicitly said that we value the health of a player's head over our ability to compete. That's where you know, okay, like, we're making the stride into the area we need to make. Not done, but that's the stride that you need to make. Make every moment more this Monday night by downloading Fandul, America's number one sportsbook.

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Franco's territory or not yet. Yeah, no, no, no. So the Broncos fired Nate Hackett today, which is now, you know, kind of your extended Black Monday. It's the Monday after week 16. It's worth noting. So I've seen some comments on this, so a point of clarification. Last year, the NFL started experimenting with a early interview period for assistant coaches into week 16 of the regular season. So if you fired somebody after week 16, you had like these two weeks of the regular season to potentially like start doing some interviews and bringing some guys in before the postseason started.

that was a let's see what this it was like the challenge pass interference thing they did it for a year it's see what it looks like that's no longer active this year so like if the broncos want from what i understand if the rancos want to go interview sean payton they can go try to interview sean payton they got to do the whole like saints trade package thing but they can do that they can't be grabbing you know uh Shane stiking yeah and and bring them into the building just yet so that's not a thing anymore but the broncos fire Nate hackett uh my read on the situation is Bronco's general manager, Bronco ownership, thought,

you know, we're probably going to fire Nate Hackett. And then they lost by like five touchdowns to the four win Rams on Christmas Day. And they had their Walter Payton man of the year guard trying to fight the backup quarterback on the sideline. They were like, we should probably maybe, maybe not wait two more weeks. So nothing happens.

That's a difficult thing. I talked a lot about Nate Hackett immediately into the season, clearly not being equipped for the job, which is why my take now that Nate Hackett is fired, is like Nate Hackett being fired is not Nate Hackett's fault. It's largely Russell Wilson's fault. And in that, it is now largely George Payton's fault.

George Payton is the general manager of the Broncos. His first year on the job, here's what he did. He traded for Russell Wilson. He extended Russell Wilson with two years, on Russell Wilson's deal. Russell Wilson, by the way, who everybody knew was 34 at the time. And then he hired Nate Hackett.

The fact that George Payne's keeping his job as the gentleman of the Broncos is actually pretty impressive when you consider the magnitude of those decisions and just how bad of a corner the Broncos have been painted into because of those decisions. They are committed to Russell Wilson

for at least the next season. The best way to get out of the Russell Wilson deal is to take a $61 million cap hit in 2023 and then take a $46 million dead cap in in 2024. That's the best outcome if you're trying to get rid of Russ this season. The other alternative is like trade him away. And in doing so, probably have to try to give picks to make somebody take on the contracts and you're probably still going to take on some money anyway. I'm not even sure that's better. So like that's best case scenario for getting out of the Rust deal. Payton created the Rust deal. He also sent multiple picks to get Russ here to then sign him to

that deal. And in hiring Nate Hackett, which of course, he hired Hackett previous to the Rust deal, he hired Hackett as Aaron Rogers bait, which just as an aside, the Broncos absolutely, but 100% should admit that they hired Nate Hackett to try to attract Aaron Rogers. It would be less embarrassing for them at this time to say, we hired Nate Haggis, we want to get Aaron Roger and it didn't work than to say, no, we thought he'd be really good and we just fired him 16 games into his tenure because we were wrong. That is a more embarrassing thing to say. but independent of that. He hires Nate Hackett for Aaron Rogers bait.

And because Hackett, after failing to be Aaron Rogers, Bates failing to get Aaron Rogers to Denver, does not have the necessary equipment to be a head coach, does not yet, does not bring with him a unique and elite culture, does not bring with him a style of play calling, an offensive or defensive scheme that defines a unit,

does not bring with him high-level leadership skills, the ability to acquire good offensive coordinators, defense of coordinators, bring a good staff into the building, maintain direct. He had none of these things. There was no evidence he had any of these things. Because of that,

they now not only have a quarterback who has painted them into a corner with his contract, who they have to commit to for next year, who's getting older, who insists on playing in a style of offense he's unable to execute, who doesn't have the athleticism anymore to make his play style work.

They now have to try to convince somebody to come become the head coach of this team because they had to fire the guy that George Payton originally hot. who was not equipped to do this job. Whose sole reason for being here is to get Aaron Rogers into the building. So Nate Hackett getting fired is because Nate Hackett was not good at doing the things that head coach needed to do.

But like, it is really important to state that there was no reason to believe Nate Hackett was going to be good at those things with the evidence we had off of the Jacksonville and Green Bay 10 years. He wasn't calling plays. He was, he did not have a unique twist on scheme. we didn't have evidence that he was a quality play caller. He had a gregarious personality. He's a affable guy.

He's a likable dude. But when you go and you look into the nitty gritty of like their press conferences and when they talk about Nate Hackett, it's just buzzwords. It's just empty sounds. It's just syllables. Leadership values, you know, offense, coach around the players. There's nothing defining about Hackett. So when I go and I go to.

say like, why was this guy fired? It's because he was put in a spot that he wasn't ready to handle. And then the failures of Russ as an individual as a player magnified that, right? Russ as a player not being good at this scheme made it so clear that Hackett was not able to, to, you know, generate to in some way like summon an offense in Russ's limitations. Russ as a person, Russ as this, you know, politician, Russ is this, this play actor who's trying to create this, this myth of him as a quarterback and of a leader and of an optimist, Hackie didn't know how to deal with that individual in a locker room that sniffed out the BS,

that sniffed out the gig so quickly. They just knew what the schick was. Like, Hacky didn't have the tools. And then Russ put a magnifying glass on the fact that Hackett didn't have the tools. It sucks for Hackett. I feel poorly for Hackett. He was absolutely a fall guy. And he took a ton of flack from me and it's deserved flack because he was not good of the job. But now that he's being fired. It's, it's, the emphasis is on what Russ did to make it so clear how poorly equipped the Broncos and Hackett were. And what Peyton did to in one year, just paint his team into an impossible corner. Yeah, I think when you say fall guy, I take it, you know, I mean, he got fired because he did a horrible job. He didn't do one thing well at the job he's supposed to do, whether it was,

you know, relationships with players, improving the quarterback, offensive scheme, culture, game management, the staff you mentioned. So I don't know if I would. say fall guy, but I hear your point that it's not, you know, they're not going to get rid of Nathaniel Hackett and now everything's going to be great going into 2023. Absolutely. Listen, the hiring process for head coaches is a highly flawed process. I mean, if you look back at the stories written last February, I believe the Jacksonville Jaguars brought in Nathaniel Hackett for a second interview. He was like, you know, he was rumored to be or reported to be their guy. And then the, you know, what NFL owners do. And this actually happens. And you probably are

listening going, wait, no, it can't be like this with these billionaire owners. Surely they must have a better process. Nope, they go online. They read the list that you and I read. They see who another team is interviewing and they say, wait a minute. Oh, oh, that guy got three interviews. Yeah, we should probably break him in. He's a hot candidate. They interview him. They decide. They hire. I mean, luck plays such a huge role in this where now the Jaguars have Doug Peterson who is cooking and they don't have Nathaniel Hackett as their head coach. And the two franchises are going in different direction. So that's on Hackett. You know, with Payton, with the rush trade, I do believe in what was the information we had at the time. He had at the time. How did we feel at the time about the rush trade?

And I thought it was a fine move to make. I mean, I can't come up here, come in here and lie about it. I'm on the record in various places on the internet, various podcasts, saying, yeah, I think this is fine. He's 34 years old. He's led a top 10 offense in eight of the last 10 years. years, you have talent around him. This thing can absolutely work. Now, I was open to the possibility that it was not going to be great, but I did not think. I don't know anyone who thought the floor was going to be this slow. Like, I thought the worst case scenario is maybe he operates like the 18th or 20th best quarterback in the NFL. You're mediocre. You don't really get to the playoffs, but you know what? You can live with that. I did not envision bottom five off.

one of the, I think the worst offense in franchise history. I did not envision players going after each other on the sideline and a quarterback who has been in the league for how many years, 12, 13 years, looking like he forgets how to play the position and forgets how to play quarterback. So I think some of those things where we look back and we say, oh yeah, you know, we saw, okay, he was in that system in Seattle and Pete Carroll was protecting him and he's 34 and there were signs of decline. Okay. If you were saying that at the time, that's fine and that's perfectly reasonable. I don't think anyone foresaw this type of floor for this team.

So it is an absolute disaster right now for them. I mean, I think looking at pushing this forward a little bit with Russell Wilson, I mean, I don't envision a scenario where you move, where you just give this one year, given the contract you gave him and do everything in your power to get rid of him unless just what's happening behind the scenes is so horrible that you're like we can't have this guy in our building. I do think when you talk about hiring a new head coach to replace Hackett, I don't think you hire someone based on them being the Russell Wilson fixer. I think you hire the best head coach you can find. You do your best with the interview

process. You envision that person being there for the next five years with or without Russell Wilson. Now, is that going to come up in the interview? Hey, what do you know, what's your plan for getting this guy back on track. Yes, absolutely, but like that's short term and it might not be salvageable. He might suck. He might be terrible next year and it won't matter if you give it another shot and you move on. But if you have faith in the coach to do the other stuff right, if the game management is good, if he brings in a good staff, if the culture is good, if the turmoil among teammates is not what it is this year, then you feel good kind of about where you are in 2024. It's a very tough situation, but I think that's how they have to approach it. I think that

approach this as let's find a Russell Wilson fixer, they're going to be highly disappointed and probably in a bad spot once again. Right. Okay. So, there's a lot of different levels to this. So the level one that I would like to address, Peyton couldn't have known that things with Russ would get this bad.

I agree with that. I think that, you know, a lot of us in Peyton's situation would see Russell Wilson available and be willing to trade a first. a second, right? A package of picks and get it done. As somebody who like was a little bit on the, hey, like,

Russ is declining. I don't know. We're going to get as good of return on this as, as we have previously. Certainly, uh, you know, watching that Seahx offense and watching it late in 2021 and saying,

oh, like, Russ is not playing the way he's previously been playing. He's playing the like, I want to throw the wall 45 times and win the MVP award style. I was worried about how this was going to work. But there's definitely. something there to, you know, Payne Cunum,

knowing it would get this bad. But I think push came to shove. You thought it was going to work, right? We did our top five offenses before. Yeah, and you, I think we both were like, yeah, they'll be pretty good. Yeah. I think the Broncos to be the fifth best offense. And it was kind of like, okay, well, like,

Cortland Sutton, Joey, Judy, good offensive line, Javonte Williams. Right. There's so much talent. It was like, all right, like, pick them. I remember struggling a lot with, with five. I shouldn't pay the Eagles, man. I was thinking about them. I didn't.

And that was tough. But the thing with, The thing is, all right, like, that's fine. Pay and extended Russ five years. 249 million. 160 million fully guaranteed. Yeah. Before he saw him play a regular season game.

That, to me, is where, I don't know what got into it. I think that was part of the deal. I think that was part of the deal because Russell Wilson had a no trade clause. He got to decide where he wanted to go. And so as you do that negotiation and you say, hey, Russell, Denver, would be a good place to come. You're having those conversations with the agent and you're coming to a gentleman's agreement about what the framework of a new deal would look like. I mean, that's just part of the trade. You sign up the day you decide to make the trade is the day you're deciding to sign him to

that contract. Remember, Seattle, at the, you know, part of the reason, I think if they had just Russ on a reasonable contract to it, they might have said, all right, we'll do, you know, one more year and trade him after the season. They knew this was coming down the road. They were not willing to pay him that type of contract. That was in all the reporting for why the Seahawks wanted to move on from him. And, you know, the Broncos said, all right, well, if we're going to make the trade, we're going to extend him. It's not just going to be a one or two year thing. So, okay.

So now if we, if, I'm not sure I fully agree with that because like, obviously Stafford didn't have a no trade clause. But the Rams traded for Stafford, then like waited and saw what it looked like before they extended him, right? Like, I think that you have got to see the guy in the building and see what it looks like, like, especially for a guy who's never been outside of Seattle. It's not like he was in Seattle and then he was in Arizona. for a few years and it worked, right? Like, you've never seen this. So now, if we're putting it and somebody calls me up and they're like, hey, Russell Wilson, you're going to send multiple first, second, whatever.

And I'm like, okay, maybe I like it. And then they go, and we've got to, he needs an extension. He needs five market setting extension. Most guarantees, right, he's going to break the Kyler Murray guarantee number by like $30 million, right? This is the contract he's going to get. I'm now not making that trade. There's no chance I'm signing a quarterback to a market setting extension when he's

over 30 before I see him play a snap in my city. that to me is that's bad GMing. If if Payton had to sign the extension, I'm not making that trade, no chance. You got to see it. Like that's just, that to me, that's reckless. If the extension was guaranteed.

What's your line about the most important, what's the most important part about being a GM? Number one bullet on a general manager's job responsibility list. Don't get fired. Hold the job, baby. Hold the job. So listen, it might not have worked out, but he's looking at it,

I have Drew Locke. What are my other options here? You're seeing the upside of a Russell Wilson trade. And you're saying, hey, quarterback, the price is going up anyway. So I hear what you're saying. I think anytime you can maintain flexibility, it's a win. I just think in that situation with Russell Wilson's agent, knowing how some of that stuff operated in Seattle,

that like George Payton knew the price before they even got in the Mick, probably before he even talked to John Schneider about what it's going to take to get this guy, I would imagine he knew what the price was going to be. I have one more, one more, not bone to pick, but I want to throw it a hypothetical now. So like you say, I say Hagan's a fall guy and you said, that's tough for me, right? Because like he was really bad. That's absolutely true. A huge part of why Hackett was fired is because you can fire a coach and it doesn't count anything against your salary cap.

You have to play the remainder of his contract in the event that he doesn't coach in the NFL again. If he's a coordinator, then you have to pay the difference between his coordinator and whatever. But you got to finish the deal, but like it's not counting against your salary cap. So the Walmart peeps, right? The Walton Penner group are just like, yeah, here's the money, whatever. Like, we don't want a new coach. So if I take the money out of it, right? You have to fire one, Russ or hack it.

You have to get rid of one and keep the other for the next five years. And money-wise, nothing's going to change for you. You're going to have the whole salary cap at your disposal. Zero cap hit for either. You have to keep one for five years and fire the other. With the information you have now, you're making the decision earlier today. Who are you getting rid of Russ or hack it? So if I keep Wilson, what's the finance?

situation if it's under his the current terms of his contract finances are totally equal there's no change finances it is the exact same financially you have to fire one and keep one for five years it's the exact same financially as it is now i mean i don't understand because he has a contract like what am i am i dealing with wilson's current contract that he's on your saying all right i'll put it this way this upcoming year you're going to have 220 million in cap space next year 230 next year 240 next year 250 next year 260, right? Forget Russ's current contract. I'm just telling you, you have to keep one for five years.

Okay. And one, you got to get rid of right now. And your finances are going to look exactly the same no matter who you choose, who are you keeping who you getting rid of? I would probably say I would keep Russell Wilson. He has, no. Yes, because here's the thing, because he, this way, I've had a loophole in your hypothetical because even if he stinks,

I mean, I can bring it if he stinks for two years and I'm not paying him I can bring someone else in. He's my backup. But honestly, like there is, I don't know what the percentage is. I don't think it's a high percentage. I'm not going to go and predict it. But there is at least some percentage greater than zero, probably under 10, that you could make the case.

This was the outlier season for Russell Wilson. Like all the decline he showed in Seattle was nowhere near what he showed this year. Now, quarterbacks don't get better at the age of 34. But is there some case that what he really needs, honestly, is like, I know he doesn't, I don't think he has the best people in his corner. But what he needs to do, like he needs to come out tomorrow and say, I feel horribly. I've let this team down. I let Nathaniel hack it down. I've let my team.

And I don't understand why. You already got the money. You got the 250. Like, you're okay. That would build so much goodwill because that's part of this is that he never does that. And he doesn't do that. And that's why people are angry. And he says, if he comes out, I was taking those sacks on.

I understand why the offensive linemen were upset. Like, you know how much goodwill you could get from just being a normal human being. And I know that's not just be a normal human being. And I know that's not going to happen. But no, I mean, the point was like our, like our view of Russell Wilson now compared to a year ago, it's like we have to remind ourselves that this guy played 10 years in the league and was a very, very good quarterback. even if he wasn't everyone's cup of tea and he was doing it, not always playing instructor.

There were several offenses with several different offensive coordinators that finished in the top 10 in the NFL with Russell Wilson as their quarterback. So there's some percentage chance that you're able to recapture that. I mean, Nathaniel Hackett, I didn't see one. With all due respect, he seems like a very nice person. I did not see anything that would lead me to say, yeah, I want him leading my team for the next five years. With the data I have now, if you're telling me I could get,

I could get out of Russell Wilson and get a different quarterback on my team. I would do it in a heartbeat. Yeah, well, it all depends who the other option is, though. Hackett was a full guy. Moral of the story. You should be, I mean, not taking a victory laugh, but you had Hackett gone after week two. But you were right, though.

And I was, but if I is sitting here in my like Eagles hoodie, in my, you know, Strausburg, Pennsylvania can look on a TV screen a week two and go, well, that guy can't do this. Then the guy who hired him misstepped royally, right? And that's the thing is like, by a head had to roll

with how this Bronco season went relative to preseason expectations. Hack it, most convenient guy. He doesn't hurt the cap nearly as much. It's just kind of like, all right, that makes sense. Bad head coach. We move on.

Like, that was embarrassing guys. So we're going to fix this. When you really like do the autopsy here, though, on the Broncos, you're like, well, yeah, he didn't help, but Russ did not help. And Peyton did not help. And two of those three guys are still there. And I'm very, very into it.

You said, don't hire the Russ Fixer. Man, oh, man, if they hired Dan Quinn and he brings Brian Schontheimer with him from Dallas, guess what they just did? They tried to hire the Russ Fixer. And there's a way this gets even bleaker. We shall see. We have a lot of fun talking coaching hires and firings. I have a feeling in the weeks ahead on this podcast.

Speaking of which, not. to be mean, but my second take is don't fall for any of the Cliff Kingsbury spin. I don't know if you saw this story. Oh, brother. Benjamin in ESPN, and by the way, I'm not saying the reporters were

spinning. I mean, they were reporting both sides of the story. I'm talking about the sources inside the story. So there was an ESPN story about kind of all the dysfunction going on with the Arizona Cardinals. A source close to Kingsbury contended that he hasn't

receive the resources he believes are necessary to win. Another source close to Cliff Kingsbury said, they won't let him be great, noting that Cliff Kingsbury wanted to fire offensive line coach Sean Cougler. Months before Coochler was let go for allegedly groping a woman before the Mexico City game. This is spin season. You're going to see reports on the Sunday morning shows. You're going to read stuff. everyone's trying to get their story out there.

As Ben said, the number one bullet for a GM is the number one bullet for a head coach. Most of the time, I mean, some of them don't care. They've got other options. But most of the time, it is a league of survival. Keep your job. How long can you keep your job? Can you win these power struggles? We talked about the Titans, was that last week or a week ago?

I mean, these things, the politics inside these buildings, what? You just got to get that owner's ear and convince him that he's got to. guys didn't get injured. If they would have drafted this guy who I said draft him, they didn't listen to me. We would be in such a bit. Everyone's trying to get their story in there. And so I have issues with the Kingsbury, the sources close to Kingsbury, what they've said specifically about how he didn't believe he had the resources necessary to win. Let's look at the facts here. Cliff Kingsbury gets there. They draft Kyler Murray. They trade for DeAndre Hopkins. They trade for Markis Brown. They trade for Rodney Hudson Center.

They trade for Zach Ertz, tight end. They sign James Connor. They use a second rounder on a tight end. Trey McBride, they use a second rounder on a wide receiver. Rodale Moore. They use a second rounder on a wide receiver. Andy Isabella, I'm not telling you these are great players. That's a lot of resources in a span of four seasons that go to the offense.

So what did Kingsbury do with that group? The team is 28, 35, and 1 in four seasons with him. one playoff win, one playoff appearance and no playoff wins. The offense has never finished higher than 13th in DVOA. I hate when coaches don't understand their jobs. I understand that Kyler Murray might not be the easiest person to coach. I mean, there's been kind of enough smoke there that, yes, he's very talented, but you got to get through to him.

Guess what? That's what the money's for. That's why you are a coach. to coach Mike. Again, Mike Tomlin is the one guy in the NFL who I think understands this. Cliff Kingsbury did not understand that. The finger pointing, the blame shifting, I think it's just going to get elevated more and more here in the weeks ahead. I am here to provide a reality check. Is everything that's happened in Arizona his fault? No, but they're consistently sloppy. They're disorganized. There's no evidence that he's capable of doing more with less or maximizing the

talent he has on his roster. He's had four years with at least a talented quarterback to show that he could give the team an edge in some respect. And he hasn't done it. I don't know what they're going to do. I think they're probably going to let him go. There was some speculation in that story that maybe he'll just resign because he's had enough to save face a little bit. We'll see if that happens. But don't believe the spin when it comes from Kingsbury's camp and don't believe it with some of these other stories you see in the weeks ahead. I don't think you disagree with me on this one. No, I mean, I've been, I had the flamethrower, man.

Like, the piece I wrote about Hackett, I had 10 times it sitting in the hopper for when the Cardinals lost to the Andy Dolan Saints on Thursday night football. And then they won their first home game in a year off of two Andy Dolan pick sixes. And I had to holster it. And then I wrote it back out a couple weeks ago after they had a loss. And now obviously, they've continued. to lose their loss of the Patriots and yada, yada, whatever. Firstly, they won't let him be great.

Have you, have you, this earnest question, have you ever authentic? Are you letting me be great? That's my question. Have you authentically ever had that thought about anybody? I have not, no. That would require, I'm trying to get to where in my head I would have to get to. I think the absolute number one best way to out that you are the source close to yourself. Cliff Kingsbury is the source close to Cliff Kingsbury.

is by saying they don't let him be great because that's just, I can't think of anybody in my life for like, I'm like, he could really be awesome. Like, oh, like his situation, hold him down. I've never once had the mental construction of they're not letting him be great. That is a thing you say about yourself when you're speaking in the third person.

Just I would like to get that out there. I do kind of like that, though. Like, if I just woke up tomorrow and something happened in the house and I just said to my wife, you don't let me be great. I kind of like how that sounds. I had the same thought. I was like, I can't would use this.

on mayor. We're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna be like, make of my coffee in the morning. We're gonna be out of coffee creamer. Like, mayor, why won't you let me be great? What is this? The limits being placed on my greatness currently. All right. That's gonna be a running gag on this show going forward. Let me be great. Number two, the gumption, man. The audacity. To, to, they're not like, uh, Kyler's not, you know, he's not, he's not playing the way I need them to play. They're not letting me be great. You send more resources. on receiver than any other team in the league since you got there. You brought the air raid offense.

This is the air raid offense that just famously cycles in receivers. They're just putting like track stars out there to run exactly one route. They got four total routes in the route tree. He spent three years not moving to Audrey Hopkins off the left side of the field. He just this year figured out that he can move DeAndre Hopkins around. Hopkins, Andy Isabella, Ron Delmore, AJ Green, trade for Marquis Brown, trade for Robbie Anderson. Keen Butler, all of these picks.

Yeah. They've spent more resources. And then they traded for Zachert, extended Zachers, and drafted Tray McBride. Because tight ends are used in his offense? What are you talking about? How can you possibly suggest that you have not been given the resources? First overall pick at quarterback who played for a Lincoln Riley air raid system who is like, you know, independent of where exactly you rank him,

independent of where you fall in the whole homework thing, you know, playoff success, whatever, has very clearly shown he is the talent to be good at the NFL level. How can you possibly say the deck was stacked against you?

What a complete and total lack of awareness. And it would like make sense from a guy who like coached at Ohio State or Alabama and then came to the NFL was like, oh geez, like Urban Meyer being like, man, it's like playing Alabama every week here.

Like I get that because you don't, you don't know the world. You don't get it. Like you were at a blue blood. you were just pulling five stars. Like life was was, was dandy for you. Cliff coached Texas tech.

Like the whole gig was like, how do we kind of maximize not the best recruiting base here? It's astounding that he's that tone deaf. Unbelievable. Kyler's got his own issues. There's stuff that Kyle has got to work on. Absolutely. But man,

it's just, it's such a incisive look into the bubble into which an NFL coach can get himself if he'd like. like to. It's a terrible shame because there was a way that this could have worked and been really cool if everybody in Arizona, and this maybe this is another team of the podcast, was just willing to be normal people, just be a normal person, just do your part of the job, let the GM do his part of the job, stop drafting linebackers, stop trying to get rid of good players so you can then sign worse players,

just like do it a regular way. And Kyler was good and you would have been fine. Like you had it. And then they completely bungled the bag. And now like you say, spin and it's only going to get worse as the situation devolves. And what that means for Kyler's future on that contract is extremely interesting because like the Cardinals job, head coaching job, is actually extremely attractive. Would you like a good quarterback or on a second contract and the longest leash known to mankind? Would you like three more years to turn the team around that you would get anywhere else

because the Cardinals don't do anything and they never move off of people? Like, it's honestly kind of nice if you're going to get that long of a leash. So the future for Kyler is hugely fascinating if they move on from Cliff, which I imagine they will because he's kind of already setting up those dominoes. I agree that that could be a very interesting opening if they let if they move on from Clif Kings. Very good because part of what you said, you have a quarterback. If you like the quarterback and feel like you can work with him and really get him to maximize the potential that we have not seen so far, you still have all those first round picks. You're not like one of these teams like, you know,

Denver or whatever that has traded away picks for a quarterback. And by the way, if Steve Kime has gone there, that could be a situation where if you're a coach who says, I want to have full control on personnel or bring in my person to handle all the personnel, you don't have to worry about it. They're not exactly the most pressure-filled market in Arizona. I imagine a nice place to live for somebody who likes warm weather, golf, all those things.

So I think that's an interesting one. Phoenix is very dry. I lose my voice whenever I'm next there. So dry, I'm very worried about Super Bowl week. I hydrate. I'm old. I mean, if I is my... I'm chug and petiolite.

Oh, still? Okay. Chug and Pedia light. So I work at a camp there. So you go there. You're running around. Yeah, yeah. But it's also June July and it's like 110 degrees.

And the worst thing is all the kids are just bouncing around. Like, this is regular. And you're like, I'm 100 years old. Like, this is horrible. Yeah. Anyway, interesting to see who gets that job. Just, you know, make sure you drink tea. Drink tea.

And most NFL people are not normal people, by the way. If you're sensing a theme from the show, it really stands out when you meet someone in the NFL who is a normal person because that is not the norm. Number three, there's a quick quiz for you here. Uh-oh. If you had to guess, what would you say the Philadelphia Eagles odds of winning the NFC championship game is right now? I would say plus 300. Twin the NFC? That didn't go the way I was hoping.

This is devastating. What is it? So it's plus 170 on Fandor. 180. Okay. Yeah, plus 170. The Niners are behind it plus 310. And then the Cowboys plus 450.

Blackings plus 750. 538 playoff predictor has the Eagles still is the favorite to win the Super Bowl. 22%. They give the Cowboys a 10% chance. 49ers and 8% chance, which means cumulatively the Eagles are more likely to win the Super Bowl than the Niners and the Cowboys combined. I'm here to tell you, the NFC is way more open than we thought two weeks ago. It doesn't have as much to do with the fact that the Eagles lost to the Cowboys.

That certainly matters in the sense that the Eagles have yet to secure the division, 97% chance according to 538, but it's still out there. If they lose both of their remaining games and the Cowboys win both their remaining games, the Eagles are not the one seat. 96% chance to get a first round buys. It's still not locked up. The loss of the Cowboys matters for these reasons. But when you watch that game,

four turnovers, two in their own territory, two in the fourth quarter, you know, third and 30 conversion from Dak Prescott. A lot has to line up for that game to go, not the Eagles direction. And they've had plenty of close wins and you're going to get some regression, some bad coin flips, Gardner Minsch you out there.

It's not like you watch that game and you go, oh, wow, the Eagles up against the Cowboys, Cowboys, you know, first playoff contender, they've played in a while, and they really struggled out there. Maybe they're not as legit. No, I think they're still legit. I definitely think they are. However, the Eagles have been able to stay healthy all year long.

It's the number one thing. What do you got to do in December? You got to stay healthy. And here we are with abdominal tear injury to Lane Johnson, right tackle, potentially out, definitely out, excuse me, for the remainder of the regular season, hoping to be back for the playoffs toe injury corner of vante maddox their slot out for quote a significant amount of time uh maddox may not feel like an important player to like you know non eagles fans non nfc east fans he's their slot corner the backup is josiah scott if you've never heard of josiah scott's name

turn on the cowboys film and find the player the cowboys are throwing the football at that's josiah Scott. Johnson Garner Johnson, previously out. Now, Reed Blankenship is in. If you don't know to read Blankenship, it's because he's an undrafted free agent safety at a middle Tennessee state. And if you're wondering who that guy is that the Cowboys are targeting when they're not targeting Josiah Scott, it's Reed Blankenship. That's him. He's the guy right there. The Lane Johnson injury means potentially Jack Driscoll's going in. Jack Driscoll who has some experience, but now this Eagles offensive line, which has been so healthy, which have been starting the same exact unit, the same exact five all season,

now finally has a break in the armor. And then critically, Jalen Hertz, and this is the big one. They're lying to you, man. The Eagles lie like, oh, Jalen Hertz might play this week against the Cowboys. Who knows? He's his body heals fast. Oh, Jalen Hertz is going to push to play this week against the Saints.

It was announced this week that we now know a little bit more about this injury. You did a great job covering out on Philly Special. This is an SC Joint Sprain, as defined by ESPN's Adam Schaeft sternoclecular joint sprain. This is not some AC joint back in a week. Throw some tape on it nonsense. This took Tyreek Hill out for five weeks.

This took Quinn Ewers out, college quarterback for Texas for a month. This is a longer injury. Most shoulder sprains are not this joint. When you read about it, all of the orthopedic surgeons are basically like, it's a weird joint, man. We don't know a lot.

This is a funny joint. It does some weird stuff, which is not what you want. the pediatric surgeon saying about your MVP candidate quarterback as you enter the playoffs. It's a weird joy. I don't feel great about that. So the Eagles are still like, the Eagles make a run through the NFC playoffs. I won't be the least been surprised.

They're very talented, well-coached team beat in a ton of different ways. But they have been so healthy every single week of the season. This right now is the unhealthiest the Eagles have been. And man, the Niners are first and DVA way over the last six weeks by a lot. Man, this Brock Purdy offense is still working. Man, that Dak press card offense is, man, that Cowboys pass rush. The stuff that got Dallas and San Francisco here is still humming. It's still working.

Both of those defenses are sick. Both those pass rush said the ability to take games over. The Niners have just transitioned to Brock Purdy with no problem. The Cowboys have got DAC and CD and Gallup working the way they expected. Like Dallas and the 49ers are both very legit contenders. and they always felt like a little bit of a bridge too far. It could be tough to be the Eagles because the Eagles were just so deep. That is no longer true of the Eagles.

This NFC race is open. Yeah, at first I thought you were going to say more teams could get into it because I think we've been saying for what two months here that it's those three teams in the NFC. And I still believe it's those three teams in the NFC. You just feel like they're a little more bunched together maybe than you thought at various times. I think the general consensus,

and I'm in Eagles country right now, so maybe like I'm a little bit skewed. but the general consensus is like all right well like the eagles through the nfc like they might you know nineers would be tough calvus be tough but like the eagle like you know like this a fc playoff pictures a mess eagles out of the nfc like you know like i've heard like people say like super bowl or bust they are about like at their current health they are about as good as dallas and and 49ers they are not emphatically a step above like i this is not like a you know oh like the eagles would be favored by four it's not that if they're going to have like no lane no avante potentially like

not a hundred percent hurts for these games that is extremely meaningful. Yeah, Hertz is obviously the big one. I mean, I feel like every team you get to this point, you're going to go through some of this stuff. Their injury luck was all, you know, it was pretty much too good to last. I mean, look at the other teams.

You mentioned the Cowboys are down their right tackle. Terran Steel, they're down two of their top three cornerbacks. You know, they have dealt with injuries. They've just been over a longer period of time. The 49ers are on their third straight quarterback, a seventh round pick, a rookie, and you don't, yeah. And then Debo's not playing right now. So they've had injuries as well.

And so if you're looking at it from an Eagles perspective, I mean, they're splits over the years. And these can always be noisy and tricky. But with and without Lane Johnson has been a big, big difference for the Eagles pretty much throughout the course of his career. So at right tackle, just to have somebody who you know is not going to give up sacks,

who's going to be able to block guys one-on-one, who's going to be a beast in the run game. You don't have that anymore. So we'll see what happens. with their right tackle situation. Her Hertz is the big one now. The Eagles have to win one of their final two games to lock up the number one seed

or they need the Vikings, Niners, and Cowboys to each lose at least one game to back in to the one seed. And so a lot comes down to this weekend. I think there's six and a half point favorites against the New Orleans Saints. If you take care of business against the Saints, well, now Hertz can get that full five weeks

that you mentioned without having to play in a game there. And so he can be fully healed and play. So I think it's going to be fun. There's much more uncertainty around the Eagles now than yes, than there was like two weeks ago. Like you bring up the Dallas injuries, you bring up the Niners injuries.

We've seen it. Like they had the injuries and we've seen them deal with it. With the Eagles, it's all right. This Saints game would be the first week they go in and being like, all right, we don't have the lane. Like, what is it going to look like? This isn't their first time with no Avanti Maddox and no Chauncy Gardner Johnson,

but it's been a liability for them. And so let's say they go out with Jackdress, Gold, right tackle for Lane, Garner, Minchew in a quarterback, and they win. Great, awesome. Now you got to rest some starters, you know, chill against the Giants or whatever.

And then you get that divisional round game you're playing the five-seat cowboys. Jalen Hurts was a go. Lane isn't. You have not yet seen Jack Droskla right tackle playing with Jalen Hertz. It'll be our first time seeing that in a divisional round. That newness is the thing that I think is most,

is most doubt-inducing in the Eagles' NFC hierarchy right now. Yeah, yeah, you could, you know, if you are a glass half full, and I don't know any Eagles fans that generally operate glass half-full, but you could say, come on, they just went to Dallas and put up 34 on the Cowboys and almost beat the Cowboys 19 yards away from beating the Cowboys with Garder Minchus. So still a lot of talent, still going to be those three teams. Yeah, it's going to be those three teams in the NFC, which, you know, is a good transition to my third point.

Vikings fans are getting a near perfect fan experience this year. I mean, look at what we just did. We just talked about the NFC with an injured Eagles team and the Niners and the Cowboys. And we didn't even mention the Minnesota Vikings who won on a 61-yard field goal. They did it again. They're 12 and 3 on this season. They have a great chance to be the number two seed in the NFC. They're going to host a playoff game in the first round.

Shane, chill, what are you talking about? Why is it a near perfect experience? They're only, what, plus five point differential on the season that's unheard of for a 12 and 3 team? Well, that's part of it. Okay? So number one, is it fun to have a Super Bowl team? Yes, nothing replaces that.

If you're a fan, if you have a team that wins the Super Bowl, you're thinking of that, or even gets to the Super Bowl, you're talking about that team for the rest of your lives with your fan friends. It's a tremendous experience. But if you've listened to me long enough, you know that I strongly believe fandom is about enjoying the experience. It's not always about winning titles. And so if you're a Vikings fan, think of what you've gotten this year, Ben. You've got 11 games decided by eight points or fewer, and you've won all 11 of those games.

There's only been three weekends this year where you've either had a loss or a non-entertaining game. Every Sunday, every Monday, Thursday, whatever they play, you are entertained. Wildly entertaining games, not 10-7. I mean, these are going in the high 20s in the 30s. Every week you got that win at Buffalo. You're going to be talking about that for 10 years. You took it to Bill Belichick on a Thursday night. You're the biggest comeback in NFL history.

The entertainment value for this team has been through the roof. That's number one, why it's been a near perfect fan experience. Number two, and this is really the key. you still get to identify and yell at enemies. Right. This is part of fandom. I mean, you can be yelling at Ben and us for just now for not taking them seriously as Super Bowl contenders,

me tweeting out these numbers every week about there's never been a team with 12 wins that have had such a terrible point differential. This is what you want. You know, you pretend as a fan that you want people to say good things about your team. That's not what you want. You want people to say bad things about your team

so you can put it on your text threads with your friends or in your Slack channels. That's the stuff that gets passed along week after week. And your Slack channels. What is what you are you doing? Slack channels. Slack. Yeah, I know you said Slack.

I'm just saying, are you doing team discourse and Slack? Is that where the youths are having conversations? All right, fine. If you're Ben's age on your TikToks on whatever, what do you add, I don't know whatever else, you guys use on your, you know, Twitch. Discord. When you're playing your video games.

Discord would be the, uh, the move here, She'll. So you get that. And so the third thing is, you get the enjoyment from the wins. You're going to have no expectations for the playoffs. You know how freeing that is? You're going to be like a three-point favorite against the Washington commanders in the first round. Like, if you lose that game, you're not like, oh, my God, I can't believe we lost.

All right. The luck kind of ran out. If you play the Niners at home in the divisional round, you're going to be underdogs at home. Do you know what's the most fun thing is being a home underdog in the playoffs where it's like, Oh, man, no one believes in my team. We're going to take it to them. Eagles were a one-seed home underdog against the Vikings in 2017. It's one of the best games.

It was so much fun. See? See? So that is what you want. So Vikings fans, enjoy the experience. Embrace the experience. This is like a once-in-a-lifetime thing. You're getting to watch Justin Jefferson every week.

If you're losing the first round, it'll be a bummer. But who really cares? You're probably not going to get another season that's this fun. Go ahead. be angry, your underdogs at Green Bay this weekend, and then sit back and enjoy the ride. This is a perfect, near-perfect fan experience, if you're a Vikings fan.

I feel like, you probably don't know the sports reporters. I feel like that was like a parting shot for the sports reporters or something where I, like, it was like I had something pre-written and something that I wanted to say and get off my chest. But that's my third point. Once the Vikings beat the Colts, I fully heel turned on the team. I'm all the way in on these Vikings. I love them.

this is whatever black magic is happening in this team i don't condone right they'd be burned at the stake if this were salem but they just they just get to always win every game in hilarious fashion that they never should win it's incredible viewing experience even though it doesn't make any sense by the laws of man the best vikings thing i saw today was kyle brand nflin network for good morning football did like a big like kirk cousin should be the mvp rand thing is like kirk's always been underappreciated he's got like like seven fourth quarter comebacks this year or something ridiculous. Like,

why isn't he an MVP docs? I've seen just Jefferson MVP docs. Like Kirk deserves his respect. Kirk deserves to be an MVP. They're 12 and 3 team. They're going to be the two team in the NFC. They're going to be a playoff team. Like Kirk's putting up incredible numbers.

Kirk should be the MVP. And then not a single Vikings fan was like, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Every single Vikings fan was like, okay. I mean like, we'll like, you know, die on the hill of Justin Jefferson offensive play of the year. so he's going to win it he's his favorite but like no viking fan like all the dolphins fans when

two oh was the subject of this sort of like here's the dark horse MVP conversation all the dolphin stands like to it yes sure 100% all the viking fans like nah he's been playing here for a while we know the deal like this is cool on everything but i i i went through the quote treats not a single viking fan being like i've been saying this all them are like okay that is i love where the viking fans are right now they're just right in the pocket hold on you're literally in a Slack channel with me where NFL discourse takes place. Why are you actually work SlackChance? For work.

Oh, okay. Well, listen, NFL discourse still takes place there. Slack is a workplace. The call sign for Slack. Slack brings the team together wherever you are. All right. So where do you have your NFL discourse with your friends? All on group chats?

Text threads. I said group chats. Yeah. So do you know what Discord is? No, do I look like someone who's on Discord? So imagine, imagine Slack, but you could also have, like, voice channels. So, like, you know, it's like a, it's like a, you know, what did your generation have conference calls, right?

Oh, my God. And so you can have text channels and you can also have voice channels. And that's where, like, when you go to play, when I go play a video game with my buddies, right, and we all want to just like talking to you have one another, you go to your Discord. You go to a voice channel. So that's where the youth would be putting your Vikings discourse. Sounds horrible. That sounds like the dark web or something.

I'm not getting involved. I'm just saying, I don't know about any social slacks you've been in. Okay. You got any slacks right now on your little left side workspace bar? It's like my friends talking about the NFL. Listen, everyone listening at the ringer know that Ben doesn't consider you a real friend. He considers you a warm friend and does not take those conversations seriously. All right.

Finish us up with your extra point taken. All right. This is actually a nice summation to a lot of these conversations, Vikings, expectations, and the Eagles and the openness of the NFC. extra point taken, a complete total resounding win for parody this year. How cool. I think that's awesome. And like the way we got here has been a little bit ugly.

Like there's been some really bad ref moments. As a gambler, I know this has been a tough NFL betting season for a lot of people because we've had some crazy outcomes. But as it stands right now, 21 of the 32 teams, that's over 66%. 21 of the 32 teams have at least a 50%. have at least a 15% chance to make the playoffs. 20 of those 32 teams have at least a 20% chance to make the playoffs. Now that's including teams that have already made it. So, Titans, Seahawks, Pats, Lions, Commanders, Dolphins, Packers, Giants, Panthers,

Bucks, Jacks, 11 teams have between a 20% chance and a 90% chance to make the playoffs. That's not including like, you know, Raiders and, you know, Saints and, I think I said Saints, and Steelers, which, like, my dad is Steelers fans right now. They have a 4% chance to win the playoffs. and he keeps asking me, like, who do I watch in this game? Who do I care about? It's a reminder of just like the psychosis of the fan of like figuring out the path to the playoffs. But there are so many paths for so many teams.

Four of the eight divisions have not yet been won. There's only two weeks left. Neither one seat is locked up. The NFL took away a buy. There's only one buy. And one of the fears was what, like, this is going to be the only thing that matters. Like the buy is going to be secured. No one's going to have anything to play for a week 15.

It didn't happen this year. It has been a excellent year for. parody at the top of the NFL. The playoff race is thick, it is dense. A lot of the teams that are, can we still say in the hunt, on the bubble, lurking, whatever odd, ominous thing ESPN uses right now,

teams like this are, like legitimate. Like, I will be interested if the Jets make it, even if Mike White is still playing, right? Like, because of the way that that defense plays, there are actually, like, if the Panthers make it, I'm going to be curious to see what that looks like. Even though it would be ugly, I'll be curious to see what it looks like.

The Giants, like the Giants are not, team to take seriously. But I kind of want to see Brian Dabble call three fake puns in a wildcard game. It's been a great year for NFL parity, for the NFL middle class, for wildcard battles, for week 16 and week 17 and week 18 matters. So, so kudos to the schedule makers. Kudos to the NFL teams and for the raising of the floor of quarterbacking for all the things that have coalesced into what has been a very fulfilling home stretch, a meaningful NFL

games. Jaguars, Jets, week 16 Thursday night football was important, man. How cool is that? Is Roger Goodell hiding behind that table holding you hostage and forcing you to say this or threatening bodily harm to you? I mean, what is going on here? Carolina Panthers?

New York Giants? You're excited to see these. Now, I see that my problem, whenever the parody argument is made, it's like, I don't know that if there's more parody this year than other years. Like I would need to see like the last, you know,

10 years how many teams were in the mix. It doesn't feel to you, like there's more teams. It does feel like it. It does feel like it. But part of that is like, you know, who was it? Tom Brady, Troy Aikman, they're ripping the quality of play. Like, I don't need to see that Bucks team play anymore. I need to see them put their hands in and say one, two, three, Cancun and then not show up to that Panthers game and just go on vacation. So there, there's some Miserab teams. Yes, the NFC South is a travesty that does not get involved in this conversation. I don't. The other seven divisions,

I think are producing very high level and then the NFC South is just like, you know, raw in there. But like even then, like the 2020 NFC East was that, right? And then Washington came in and played the eventual Super Bowl champion bucks closer than any team.

That always happens. Yes, that always happens. And that's the thing is we, when January starts baby, zero zero, I believe that so strongly. When we get to that playoff field, zero and stuff can happen. So to me, I love this race.

I love this parody. And then like, I said kudos to NFL school. schedule makers, it's like, I don't know how much credit goes to get down to the NFL and everything like that. I just know that when I get a year with this much intensity, with this much grappling with this much closeness, I feel it. I feel that energy. And it's, it's cool to see. Roger, I would be good with six teams still getting in from each conference. I would be good with the two buys. I would be good without the 18th week. I feel I was thinking I'm ready now for this to be the last week and look

ahead to the playoffs. But, you know, if you're in there, enjoy the Solek household. for the rest of the week. Hope you have a good time there. Maybe we'll see you later. All right. All right. That will do it for extra point taken. This is a long show.

We've tried to keep the show's title. Listen, it's a week 17. We got a little longer. What are you going to do? We're rambling about Slack. Here's all I have to say about the time limits on the show length. They're trying to keep me from being great, shield. Trying to keep me from being great.

I'm trying to be great over here. And they're keeping me down. They're trying to keep you from being great. All right. That will do. Thank you to everyone for listening. Thank you to Christopher Sutton for producing. We will have the power rankers. I'm going to be on the island this week. We're going to take a break from the scramble this week. So you won't get that. Enjoy the holiday week. And then Ben will be back to preview week on the preview show. Thank you additional production supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna, Ram Gopal. Everyone, have a great week. Have a happy new year. And we will talk to you on Extra Point Taken in 2023.