The Ringer NFL Show - Chicago’s QB Problem, Best Team in the AFC, and Best Wide Receivers With Dave Dameshek | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: November 17, 2020

Ryan and Cole are joined by Dave Dameshek to discuss how to fix the Chicago Bears' offensive struggles (6:15) and who’s the better AFC team: the Pittsburgh Steelers or Kansas City Chiefs (31:15). Then they talk about wide receivers, including their favorites, the most underrated, and who’s the best at the position in the NFL today (1:01:42). Hosts: Ryan Shazier and Cole Wright Guest: Dave Dameshek Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys? Cole right here with my guy Ryan, Shayzeer, and special guest, Dave Damashek. We're taking a look at the bear struggles to find a quarterback, the Steelers, and wide receivers. All that and more. Coming up next on this Tuesday edition of The Ringer NFL show. Hey, today's episode of The Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network is brought to you by State Farm.

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strength. Choose insurance that always brings its A-game. When you want the real deal, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Oh, I know you've been waiting all week long and the time has finally arrived. Once again, this is the Ringer NFL show Tuesday edition, alongside my guy, Ryan Chase here. I'm Cole Wright. And Ryan, what a treat we have today for all the listeners out there because you being a former Pittsburgh Steeler alum, we're bringing in probably one of the most knowledgeable fans

and Steelers supporters that I've ever met in my entire life. He's one of my good friends. I work with them at NFL Network for the better part of a decade. It's five and a half years, so that's the better part. part of a decade. It's my guy, Dave Daveschek, I like to call young David. Dave, what's going on, man? Oh, I'm swooning. I, you know, my heads swimming with memories, you know, Cole Wright, one of my all-time favorites. And number 50, another one of my all-time favorites to Kibbitt's with on the other side of the microphone. Nothing better than catching up with 50,

with, with, with Ike Taylor and Cole Wright alongside. We'd catch up. She's a, You'd always tell us about your little one running around the house. Now you got two muzzle tubbed to you. How are you, man? Yeah, I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Yeah, I got two knuckleheads. You know, one of them, birthday is tomorrow on Wednesday, the 18th.

So we're getting him a dog. So this is going to be a fun occasion. We already have one dog. So speaking of dogs, there's a dog coming into Columbus named the Indiana Hoosiers, a 21-point dog to be specific. They may leave with the dignity of the ball. buck guys. You know,

they, we go in there and beat you. I don't know what, 50. Vegas is rich for a reason because they know, they know the bets, they know the numbers. And I'm trying to tell you,

I'm sticking with Vegas on this one. I like, I like our 21 point spread on you guys. All right. Now, Dave, you know, since it is almost that holiday season, the Thanksgiving time of year,

you know, usually you and I would be over, you know, off of Washington in Los Angeles and Culver City, we'd be having your pie off. And, you know, I've a perpetual second place finisher in that pie off, man. And just for old time's sake, I'm still going to make the pie this year. And I'm going to give myself that first place blue ribbon, just because, man,

just because you know how delicious that chocolate, moose, cream, sealed pie with the candied bacon on top and the Himalayan sea salt. I know your mouth's water right now. Yeah, Shazir, we would do the pie off every year. We would also do the Thanksgiving food draft. And Cole had some crazy, I don't even remember some of the insane things that you drafted. You drafted like one year like barbecue chicken or something. No, no, no, crawfish.

That's what it was cross. For Thanksgiving? For Christ, that's exactly right. You can't just name food. You know, you got to have to name Thanksgiving. Ryan, right, right. My wife is from Baton Rouge. We've discussed this many of times.

Thanksgiving, people have crawfish boils. It's the beginning of crawfish season. We can get some seasonal crawfish. Why not? Why not have the picnic table out there with newspaper everywhere? He has some corn in the cob, some potatoes, some crawfish. In addition to, I didn't say it was the main fare, Dave. I said in addition to you ever like turkey and gravy and crawfish?

Why not? I'm just asking the question. You ever had some crawfish stuffing? I'm allergic to seafood. But crawfish are fresh water, though. I'm allergic to all food, I mean, all sea, all fish, shellfish and seafood. It just makes no sense if you're going to do a Thanksgiving draft. You know, just like, well, Hawaiian pizza.

Wait, what? Well, but I like it. It tastes good. Like, but that's not the spirit of what we're doing here. Meantime, we would do the pie off. Everybody could bring in a pie, Shazir. And Cole was very much like the 90s, Atlanta Braves. Always the runner up.

Never the winner. Yeah. So, so what was the winner? Like, was it homemade pies? Oh, yeah, it was homemade pie. Yeah. Yeah. And really, Shazier was a,

It was a pyramid scheme by me. I would, everybody brings a pie in. I am the blue ribbon panel of one. I'm the only one, the only judge there. I would take a bite of everybody's pie. And, you know, who wins? Me, I'm eating pie all day. That was, it was, you know, it was a lark that everybody fell for year after year after

year, after year. Smart move. The outcome of me finishing second place for so many years in a row, I mean, an absolute farce. And we know that that's not how things shook out. know I should have had the first place, but you know what? My results in those pie off state and Ryan, and nowhere near as bad right now as that Chicago Bears offense. Right.

Transition. Yeah. I mean, sitting there right outside of Chicago and knowing that the monsters of the midway are playing just right up the street, a stone's throw, right off a lakeshore drive, and to see them not even be able to muster up 50 yards on the ground. I mean, these are the monsters of the midway, right now, it's a sad state of events right now, Ryan.

To see this team not be able to run the ball, that's their calling card. Like we talked about earlier, the lack of quarterback play, what if the Chicago Bears going to get a quarterback that's worth his salt? I thought a monster of Maywe was considered for your defense. Doesn't that try a defense? Yeah, that's true. One more time. That's the references, too.

That's true, but it should be all encompassing. If you're monstrous, it's not like anyone says, okay, only on one side. this team, they get wins. And when Walter Payton was running the ball, I don't think anyone questioned their ability to become monsters on the field. Right now, we don't see that too much. Your offense does not have a Walter Payton.

Not at all. Not at all. And the thing is, I'm actually a fan of Montgomery, man. It's just, but I don't know, man. I don't think that your offense changed at all with Matt Nagy taking the play call in the way either. Yeah, Bill Laser, Dave. I thought that there was going to be some kind of change.

We would see, you know, some kind of lifting that stagnant offense. And what did we see last night? Absolutely none of that. I mean, with 41 yards, 17 carries for 41 yards. I mean, if Neil Anderson had 17 carries for 41 yards, he would have went back to the locker room shaking his head back in the game. Good shout out to Neil Anderson. History has forgotten the guy who took over for Walter Payton did a lot better

as the successor to an all-time legend, and better than most human beings put in a spot like that would. You know, it's funny here in 2020, and this has been kind of the arc of the 21st century in pro football, is it's a quarterback league, it's easier to throw the ball, the successful teams can throw the ball and all of that. More often than not, at some point, you need to be able to run the ball too.

And, you know, for Shea's ear's old gang there in Pittsburgh, that's nine and oh Steelers, people on the banks of the Three Rivers are ringing their hands right now because despite having that potentially really dominant generational defense and well Dave Dave we're going to get to the Steelers in due time we're going to get to the Steelers you and Ryan Chase here you know we're going to talk to them disconnecting the dots that even a 9 and 0 team people are still saying they can't run the ball the issue is that you know in 2011 this is this is the marker that I lay down here

over the last nine years. The QB league has now achieved full QB saturation. There are almost no NFL teams out there that don't have a halfway decent option starting a quarterback now. 2011, if you look back at the, right, the bears are one. And, you know, by the way, the only thing you can do to, the only thing you can really do to screw things up is to pick the wrong guy because there are more than 32 decent options to start a quarterback.

In 2015, I posed the query to the world, to the world. How in a world of 7 billion people can we not find 32 human beings to successfully play quarterback in the NFL? It was crazy. And if you look back at 2011, people were falling all over themselves still to find their franchise QB, reaching, going out of their way to get it. You had Cam Newton go first overall. Then you have all these, like the first dozen or 13 picks.

If you go through them, you'll see a bunch of future Hall of Famers names. Tyron Smith, Patrick Peterson, JJ Watt, so on and so forth. Von Miller mixed in there. And amongst all those Future Hall of Fame names, you see Christian Ponder and Jake Locker. My point is, teams were reaching to get a QB back then. Nine years later, you don't have to. There are decent QBs in the pipeline. James Winston is a backup.

Well, not now. Now he's a starting quarterback for the short term. Marcus Mariotta is a backup QB. Cam Newton was out on the street four minutes until the season kicked off. And that brings it back to the Bears. How different would they look right now? Either five and five, they can still get into the mix, but they look downright crummy at this point.

If they would have gone with Cam Newton and just gone like old school, Ryan Shazir, Woody Hayes, Beaumbeckler, three yards in a cloud of dust offensively, which is what Belichick did on Sunday night to the Ravens. And with that defense, that would have been a winning formula. As it is, the Bears are 54 years into the Super Bowl era. The best quarterback they've ever had is Jake Cutler. It's impossible.

The football gods are getting them for something. I don't know what, but how is it possible? You don't even lock into a halfway decent quarterback at some point over more than half a century. It's the number three media market in the nation, Ryan. And for the Bears to never have a quarterback and just to think that this is a team that spun their tires. And for Dave to make mention that Jay Cutler, the best quarterback that the Bears have ever had, I mean, that just lets you know why do the Bears swing and miss every single time when it comes to getting a quarterback? Because I've heard people out there say, okay, next season, here's what's going to go down.

Sam Darnold as the next Bears quarterback. And if you're a Bears fan, I mean, you're sitting there just putting your face in your hands. like Sam Donald as the next quarterback, a guy who turned the ball over a ton at USC, a guy that's turned the ball over more than enough with the Jets and then he'll come to Chicago and do exactly the same thing. But I have to say this, no disrespect to Sam Donald. What is a quarterback worth to you guys?

Like, what are you guys willing to give up for a quarterback? Whatever it takes to win, I guess. But the bears haven't been able to do that in the entire existence of the Chicago Bears. I'm saying, would you like trade one of your best defensive players to get the number one pick? I think the sweet spot is to get a franchise QB when he's on his rookie deal, obviously. That's why the accent. I feel like, well, a great team to look at with that, don't ask me, ask Mike McCarthy and the Jones family down there in Big D because they're kind of the litmus test going forward for this. Are you going to pay Dak Prescott, who was playing really, really well before he got hurt?

He's going to be owed, you know, given what the market is. You're going to have to pay him like $45 million a year to keep him. You cannot hang anything that's happened with the Cowboys on Dak. He was the big bright spot for that team. But if you pay him $45 million into 2021 and beyond, then you're not going to be able to flesh out the rest of the roster, which obviously is not up to snuff or else they wouldn't be two and seven as we sit here and speak. So better that they let this season go and get one of those. My point about full QB saturation is perennially now in the spring, there are guys in the

pipeline coming out of college. Your guy, Justin Fields, is one of those options, Shazier coming out of school. Like, better for them to get Fields on a rookie deal and flesh out the roster around them. No? I can't agree with you. I can't agree with you. They got to pay that. They got to pay back.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You can't let that go, man. I understand. I see where you're coming from. You need a rookie guy. You need a rookie guy, but you can't let that go, man.

And if you do let that go, the bear is better grapple. The bear is better gravel. He'd be great up there, right? Brian, what about this? Do you feel that the Chicago Bears are a team where solid quarterbacks, at least with the coaching staff

that's in place. If a quarterback that can make some noise in the league, if he goes to Chicago, that's where his career goes to die. We've seen it in other sports with different teams. I'm not going to say that. I'm not going to say that because, and they quarterback's all about decision making, you know, and in your ownership, they're going to find out, like, hey, Dak was slinging in Dallas. He comes here and now he can't, like, the offense is just a standstill. Obviously, he had a lot of weapons in Dallas, but, I think the ownership would be like, hey, we might have to get some different coaches in here to figure out what's the best move for him. You know, because I think Dak is one of the top quarterbacks in the league right now.

So if you let – if Dallas let him walk would be a mistake. I think he can go there and succeed. But what I was saying, would you trade – would you trade – let me see, like Eddie Jackson – Eddie Jackson in a first for Trevor Lawrence. What is a quarterback worth to you? That's what I'm saying. Got to have it, obviously, to win. I mean, you look at these, and you kind of touch on it there.

It's not a quarterback who can win you a Super Bowl, because Jimmy Garoppolo came within a throw of winning a Super Bowl. Jared Goff got pretty close two years ago. Nick Foles, who you mentioned there, Cole, got, you know, he did get over the hump there in that very limited, stretch there with the Eagles. The problem is that the window is awful tight if you don't have one of those guys that actually can win you games at QB, not lose you games. Because what we're rich now in the middle class with QBs in pro football these days. There are a lot of Jared

golf types, which are not going to kill your chances of winning the Super Bowl, but there remain only a small handful of guys that actually are the reason why you win games. Russell Wilson, Aaron Rogers, probably Tom Brady still or at least in his prime, he was that guy, Ben Ropisberger. It's not a coincidence. Now Patrick Mahomes. Those guys, those teams that have those guys, it's no coincidence that if you go through the list of teams that have won Super Bowls in the 21st century, they have those guys at QB. Now, Joe Flacco snuck through that one year, like I say, Nick Foles.

There are exceptions that prove, right. Those are the exceptions that prove the rule. If you don't have that guy that now you go and commit or over commit to a guy like Jared Gough, now you're jammed up with that guy forever. And the rest of the roster better carry more of the load than as you see in like even Pittsburgh, 38 year old Rathusberger, they've kind of turned the thing over to him. Patrick Mahomes is the reason why that that team has some flaws. You know, they're not a, they're not a perfect roster.

Russell Wilson, I know that team is scuffling right now, but Russell Wilson now for a season and a half at least has obscured the overall mediocrity of the Seahawks roster. You know, you need a guy that good who can cover that kind of stuff up or else you have a middle class QB. You're trying to kind of win around as opposed to letting that guy be the reason why you're going to Super Bowls. I'm going to be honest.

I think Mason Rudolph might be better than both your quarterbacks right now. And I know you voiced your opinion on Mason Rudolph. You hear the gargamel type cackle from our guy, Dave. It's like Dave just got a whole boatload of smurfs. No, I'm just going to say, like, I'm just, obviously, I'm cool with Mason. Like, he's a cool dude. But I just, I'm just watching your performances. And it just, it looks bad, man.

Like, I'm out there holding a clipboard on the sidelines. Like, you say, I mean, I know I'm in Chicago. I know I'm a native Chicagoan, but that does not, by default. make them my squad. But take, take, take a look at this. So who was your squad, dude? Who's your squad? I mean, I remain unbiased.

I remain unbiased. I look at every, I paint, I paint the picture with the exact same brush all the way across the board there, right? I'll play the union. But taking a look at Ryan Pace, Matt Nagy, Nick Foles. I mean, they have to do a complete overhaul. Ryan Pace, I mean, all the quarterbacks that he's brought in, none of them have been good, whether it's Mitch Trubisky, whether it's Mike Glennon, whether it's Nick Foles.

And none of those guys, they're going to win you a game. on Sunday. It's going to be something else that gets the victory in that one. I mean, I don't know what needs to happen for all this to go down date, but taking a look, how do they free Deshaun Watson of that mess in Houston? How do they get Airbnb as their next head coach? How do they make a move when it comes to the front office? Because the Chicago Bears right now, they are a team in absolute sham. 5-0 said it already. It's the coaching, but I guess it's really both. What we're seeing now in the Belichick Brady divorce is that, you know, they're both a little bit less than what they were together. And, you know, you can kind of, now that the MVP

talk is starting to heat up again around Patrick Mahomes or Kyler Murray, you kind of see that Rathusberger and Tomlin are better together. I mean, obviously Tomlin's a defense first coach, but that marriage is what makes them both kind of thrive there. And whether it's BNemi or otherwise, you know, Deshaun Watson, I mean, obviously, that's old, that's old news. Bill O'Brien kind of jammed that franchise up a little bit. And I think that at the ownership level, well, at the ownership level, it's a weird phenomenon that the owners sort of sometimes overcomit to the coach or GM combo.

marriage. And that's kind of it feels like what's going on down there in Jacksonville right now, that it's more important to embrace Morone and company than it is to fix the player level, that they allowed Jalen Ramsey and the high-end talent that they had. I mean, they almost went to a Super Bowl. Everybody. Everybody went to a Super Bowl a couple of years ago. And, you know, that's kind of representative of what I'm talking about. Blake Bordles, you might sneak through, you might knuckleball your way through a season, through a December and January. were in, get to a Super Bowl and win it. But Blake Bordels is not going to provide long-term success for any franchise.

But they still, they've still sort of over could they've let Jalen Ramsey go so that they could keep Doug Marone? What? That's not a smart move. That's not how it works. Yeah. It's like the jets. Yeah.

Say, hey, let's get rid of our running back, a generational running back and our offensive genius head coach got to another spat. What do we do? All right. Get that running back out of here because the coach is. shown us that he's fantastic while the running back has not, not the case. And it's kind of like, yeah, right. It's as though they're forgetting the essential piece of it that the Jets and a lot of these

teams now, the Texans, all these teams, the Jags and so on, they look at the success in the 21st century of the perennial contenders, John Harbaugh in Baltimore, Tomlin in Pittsburgh, Belichick and New England. And they say, see, stability. That's the way. We just can't keep firing guys all the time. Yeah, but if the coach isn't the guy, then you got to move on from that guy. Like, I get the spirit of, like, we just can't be one of these franchises that just

flipping coaches because then we seem like a joke. But if you don't have the guy, then you've got to move on from that guy, you know? So. Yeah, could anyone imagine being allowed to fail and be terrible at your job for three years? Well, I know they've had terrible shows for the last two seasons. But don't worry, year three, everything's really going to turn around. That's exactly what they're going on with a whole bunch of teams, whether it's the Bears and Matt Nagy,

whether it's the Jets and Adam Gaysbride. We see it. It's a perpetual cycle. And the problem with a lot of these teams is that the people that they're trying to have stability with, they'll let it go of their best guys. And when you look at all the other teams that have stability, they have great relationships with their best guys. So it's like, if you're Doug Morrow, all right,

I understand me and you don't like each other, Jailen, but let's figure out a way to make this work. You know, like, Coach Tomlin, the only way they're letting go of a bad player in Pittsburgh is if we already have a good player next in line. You know, we're not about to just let go of just, hey, hey, Jaylin, you don't want to be here? All right, see you, bro.

Like, bye, we'll take two first round picks for you. We're not about to get another Jailin Ramsey. Like, that's not about to happen, you know? And I feel teams don't understand that. and it's sad to me. But also, if I was, if I was Bianami, I wouldn't go to Houston because they, do they have a first round pick this year?

Yeah, well, that's why they, yeah, they're in trouble. Bill O'Brien really jammed them up in the short term. No, all those picks. If you want to use some of those Texans pick, you've got to move to South Beach without Brian Floresoff, and I don't think he's leaving. Yeah, and I think, I think, yeah, we'll talk about him later, But I think he's coaching amazing right now.

And that's how you build a stable program, man. You get some picks in there and build a team around there how you want it. Not drive out the team that was there before you. You've got to try to get the guys that were there before you kind of jump on board or just figure out a relationship with that guy until it's time to transition. But it's a lot of coaches just because you didn't draft the guy, the relationship with that guy is out of here. It destroys your team.

Yeah, it's all that synergy. It comes from the combination of a head coach and a solid quarterback. And Dave, that makes me think back to when we were down in Houston for the Super Bowl and we're sitting at the bar, the hotel, and TD had just gotten into the Hall of Fame. I'm sitting there. And then in walks Vince Vaughn. I have on a C-shirt with a C on it and a Michael Jordan face. And Vince Vaughn's like, obviously, Chicago guy's like, hey, hey, Michael George he played

for the White Sox. Like, what's that? I'm like, yeah, you know, Cubs, Michael Jordan, Chicago. They win a World Series. The best thing. He's like, I get it. Best of both worlds. Like peanut butter and chocolate.

And that's exactly what coaches are. You have a solid coach. You have a solid quarterback. You're going to win football games in the National Football League. And just like we see right now in Pittsburgh, 9 and 0, what do they have? They have probably, if not the best head coach in all the league right now outside of Bill Belichick. He is as good as it gets. They have Mike Tomlin.

They have Ben Ruffisberger and Ryan Loh. And behold, this team is 9 and 0 for the first time of franchise. Hey, Shazir. I don't know if you can reach behind you there and pick up all those names that Cole was just dropping. Oh, my bad. Hall of Famer Terrell Davis and Vince Vaughn and I were hanging out, chopping it up. We weren't hanging out. I just so happened to be in the same place by default that they were in. If it wasn't Super Bowl, I would not be in that same. He's big time. He's big time, man. Not at all. Not at all. How about the time I came down? You know, we'll get to Antonio

Brown in just a second because things are going a little off the rails, but I came down in the hotel at another Super Bowl in Minnesota. There's Dave and A.B. just chopping it up. I'm going to get in the conversation and I stood there legit for about three minutes and I'm like this conversation is not for me. It's above my pay grade. Dave and A.B. continue to discuss. But either way, let's get back, let's get back to the Steelers. Nine and O playing an unbelievable brain of football. Like we said, it comes as no surprise when you have that head coach and you have that quarterback that things will happen, right? Yeah, the biggest thing that Coach Tomlin does, he just focused on winning. We used to talk about this and he tells the team this all the time. And this is one of my favorite things.

Like, well, yeah, about weeks and days off. Coach Tomlin, he's just like the guy. He's like, hey, man, don't get fired on your day off. You know, like, basically. For stealing boxes. For stealing boxes, you know. And, like, he basically said, man, hey, man, y'all are grown men. I'm going to treat y'all like grown, man.

Just come in here and focus on winning. Like, it's a lot of teams. Oh, you're wearing the wrong shirt in the facility. You're fine $10,000. You have your phone in your pocket in a meeting. you're fine $50,000. Coach Tomlin is like, and the Steelers are, bro, like, you have your phone on you, just don't be on your phone at work.

You know, like if something important happened, let us know, I'm going to take care of it. You know, but there's a lot of other teams so focused on other things. That's why they lose games. Coach Tomlin and the Steelers, they really just focus on, all right, what's the best thing to help my guys win? Well, let me figure out what my guys are really good at and thrive there. Our defense is one of the best defense in the league.

All right, let our defense help us drive these games. Now, Ben has a bunch of young weapons. He can spread the ball to whoever, and nobody really gets jealous about when somebody else makes a play. Like, one game, Juju can have a great game. One game Deonté can have a great game. One game, Chase can have a great game. One game James can have a good game.

And then we know that Ebron is going to have a good game eventually because somebody's going to be like, hey, the tight end is not doing anything. and E. Bron is going to go crazy. So it's just, I feel like they have a real well-balanced team and Coach Tomlin understands how to use his weapons. You know, a lot of guys are just so focused on all the other things. And I think this is what makes the team really well.

But they're going to have to improve the run game. And the reason I say that is because once the playoffs come and it starts to get colder, the rock starts to get a little harder, and you want to start to have more control of the run game because then you have more control of the game. I know we, like Dave said earlier, it's a quarterback league. But at a day, you don't want your quarterback just throwing it all over the place, especially in the playoffs.

You want to start to control the ball, you know, so. Well, I mean, you know, I go back to one of my memories, one of my favorite games, one of my favorite couple big plays from number 5-0 there where it came in Arrowhead in that frigid game when Lev Bell got, what, like 36 touches or something like. like that. You had a pick early in that game, if I recall correctly, but it was that frigid rain and it even delayed the game by a day or by the kickoff time or whatever it was. And that's exactly right. I mean, the Steelers, that's got to be their concern going forward. Yes, we can talk about

Bill Walsh, Joe Montana, San Francisco teams of the 80s when they would ball control it by throwing short passes. Even Brady to Julian Edelman two years ago, they were controlling the clock largely by throwing those choice routes to Edelman, those short little eight-yard plays. But they also had the ability, those Patriots teams over the last decade, really since the Randy Moss years, when they would ball control you with short passing game to James White, Shane, whoever else you want to talk about. But I'm really conflicted about this because it is not 1976 as. as Pittsburgh, writer for the athletic and Palomai, Mark Cabali is advocating,

hey, you don't need the, you don't need the ball control it by run, run, run, run 35 runs a game anymore. But there's not a ton of evidence that you can win the Super Bowl if you cannot run. The reason that the Eagles won the Super Bowl, the Eagles in 2018 were really good. The 2017 Eagles won the Super Bowl, though, because in the fourth quarter, they would turn it over to Blunt and Ajai. They didn't have that ability the following year.

and they went out of the playoffs quickly. There just are not a ton of examples in the 21st century that if you cannot run the ball, when you have to run the ball, to ice the game, especially if Patrick Mahomes is on the other sideline, the ability to make one first down with four minutes left in the game

might end up being what allows you to advance or go home. You looked at that game on Sunday night, when the skies opened, if you were watching, and it started to really come down there. Like what, I mean, what if? What if that happens in the divisional rounds of the Steelers? You're not going to be able to throw the ball. Well, you better be able to run it then or else the season's going to be over for you.

So that is a legitimate concern. I know that, you know, people these days have to apply some cynicism to anything good. Oh, that's too good. Then we have to knock it down. That's the way society is now that we have to. Nothing can be allowed to stand as beautiful. We have to pull coals in it. But I think legitimately it's fair, even though they're 9 and 0 and things are exciting in Pittsburgh right now.

That is a potential fatal flaw come January for them. And Ryan and I, we were discussing Dave just a little bit ago. We were talking about the fact Steelers 9 and 0. They had the best record in the league, but are they the best team in the league? Or are they the best team in the league at going out there and finding a way to win? And Ryan said, well, doesn't that necessarily make them the best team in the league? But, you know, we talked about if they had to play right now, maybe even on a neutral site versus Kansas City,

you know, I think I'm going to have to go with Patrick Mahomes. Like you said, can they run the ball to keep Patrick Mahomes and the Kansas City explosive offense off of the field? That's a big question, Mark. Yeah, to me personally, I think they can win, you know. Why are you not like that, though, when you say, I don't feel you're 100% behind that one? No, I think they can win because,

Kansas City, a defense isn't as good as the Steelers defense also. Not at all. And the thing is, the Steelers have been averaging over 25 points a game this year. So I'm not saying that we can keep up with the offense, but I think we can stay in the mix, and our defense will be able to slow them down more than their defense can slow ours down. But they do have a decent run game, you know, compared to ours. And like you would say, with Tom Brady and Edelman,

Ben is not the, I'm checking it down quarterback. That's just not who he is. he's going to throw the ball down to yon. You know, like if you give him the opportunity, he's taking the chunk. And that's what made Ben great, you know. So, but if they, if they play in a neutral site, it's going to be a really good game.

But I think the Stilis can sneak it out because I think Coach Thomas the best coach this year and one of the best coaches of all time. And I think he'll out-coached Andy Reid. Every time Coach Tomlin plays Andy Reid, besides the last time they played, you know, he has his number.

That Shea's ear is exactly right about that. That head-to-head is favorable to Pittsburgh. And, you know, listen, it's, if the Chiefs played anybody, that's the difference between football and, you know, the NBA playoffs or the MLB playoffs or NHL play, is it you get one shot, you know? If the, if the Chiefs played anybody in a seven-game series, well, the Chiefs would win the series.

So there's not there's not one team out of 31 that you would name that would say, yeah, I think they could take four out of seven against them. But in a one-off, Pittsburgh's the best, I think the best constructed to take down the chiefs in a one-off. I mean, they've got speed on defense. That's a must to vanquish these chiefs. And to Shea's ear's point, they're capable of putting up points. You don't have to play keep away with them. It's not like you've got to do.

dominate the clock for, you know, 40 minutes or whatever. And, you know, ice Patrick Mahomes, you got to put up to beat them, you're probably going to have to score 28 to, you know, 31, something like that, in order to vanquish them. In the 21st century, though, it's also, because it goes back to it's not 1976 anymore, it's not 1985 for the Bears anymore. You're not going to hold consistently anybody to like nine points a game. There's no such thing in the 21st century.

is a defense that dominant. What you need to do these days is defensively, is especially in January, rush the passer and turn the ball over. And the Steelers, as long as they limit big chunk plays, easier said than done, especially against Tyree Kill and Company,

if they don't get beat over the top, and that's what make us all about, is making sure that that's not what happens back there, as long as they tighten that up, and you don't whip them with a giant, you know, 70-yard kind of touchdowns, The more they extend any drive, even against Mahomes, the more likely it is that T.J. Watt or Bud Dupree or KM Hayward or otherwise is going to get to Mahomes and force a turnover. And that, you know, that's the premise of it. They can heat up the QB, force Padra Mahomes to get rid of it a tick sooner than he wants to. And then you have Minkin Company on the back end there to pick it up and turn it over. If you can do that a couple of times over 60 minutes to, to the Chiefs, the Steelers are positioned to perhaps beat that thing.

Well, the Steelers, they're out there breaking hearts of Ravens fans, Bengals fans, Browns fans, and a former Steeler Antonio Brown, he's over there breaking video cameras. Brian, what in the world is going on with this cat? That happened two weeks before signing with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. I mean, he said it right here just a few weeks ago on the podcast. He's a wishy-washy kind of guy. I mean, breaking security cameras. I mean, why doesn't he just calm down?

Why is he so angry? Man, he has this, was it short man, small man syndrome or something like that? Man, it's just like, like, I don't understand, man. It's just like, some people just have attitude problems and they just don't understand how to control their anger. And I think for Antonio playing football is one of them, it's like a way to help him control his mood, his attitude, is anger and things like that. And I think he didn't know what was planned.

And then, you know, this happened. Then he get a call from the bucks and then now he's on the bucks. But, man, I just, you know, I don't wish any bad on anybody. You know, sometimes I get frustrated on people and, like, things like this. I don't wish any bad on anybody. But sometimes people got to understand, like, man, you got to grow up, man. You're a 32-year-old man, a 30-year-old man. Like, you know, you have kids.

sometimes you got to just know like, hey, what's the right thing? What's the right decision to make right here, man? Like, and I just, I just think it's time for him just to like really just look back and evaluate his, his, like, decisions and just go back and it's like, is this the right decision? Like, how did we get here? Right. Like, how did we get into this decision? And I just, Dave, did you see it?

Did you see what happened? Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I've read about it again, and yeah, it's a recurring issue or the, the anger issues are, you know, I mean, it's hard to argue against them. I'm obviously not a psychologist, believe it or not. Although, you know, Cole, if you want to talk about anything, I'm always here for you. But I do think. You have a fine leather couch. Yeah, you too, you too, 50. Either way, you know, if you guys want to talk it out, I'm here for you.

But yeah, I mean, for real, obviously the guys, it's not a coincidence. The common factor in these incidents is Antonio Brown, whether, and these aren't, I mean, taking it to the football field. It's not felonious behavior, but, you know, you take it back to December of 2018, his whole divorce from the Steelers begins because whoever you want to believe about that you didn't like Juju Smith Schuster being named the, the, the, the, team MVP and that caused him to get some raw feelings and everything went downhill from there. It's like, you know, okay, if that's a one-off, that's fine. Jerry Rice also wasn't happy.

Walter Payton wasn't happy that they didn't get as much shine coming off of a Super Bowl victory. I mean, literally in the locker room in these great moments in their careers, they had some, you know, some raw feelings about like I wasn't named the MVP of the game or I didn't get to have a touchdown and Fridge Perry did. and all of that, but you let it go because it's a one-off with those guys. Antonio Brown, these incidents are happening on the field, off the field, and they're happening way too much. And I think that's pretty clear at this point. The question is, is the gamble, and I guess we're going to, we'll have to wait and see,

you know, things were going pretty nicely without him in Tampa for Brady and, and Arians and company. Is this going to, I wonder if we'll look back and say, man, that was a mistake. That ruined what could have been a magical season down there for Brady and a chance to host the Super Bowl. I honestly think you're just an insurance policy for them. You know, they're just really just there just to see, hey, we're going to try to get as many pieces as we can,

try to win the Super Bowl, and then, hey, we're going to move on next year. Obviously, Antonio is trying to play his ass off to try to get another contract. But if things like this keep coming out, it doesn't matter how good you are, I don't think. But I said this before, and people got them. So, hey, but I'm going to say, it doesn't matter how good you are, you know,

somebody's going to, people are going to step away. But, you know, if he come back and these next, what they have nine games left or next seven nine games, seven games left, these next seven games, he just plays his ass off, you know, when we look like the Antonio Brown of the past, you just never know. Teams might be like, hey, I'm jumping on board. Well, that's why it's, you know, that's what's seductive about him, the Brady, Aryans, or Belichick last year is Antonio Brown, I say this all the time and it's not hyperbole,

if you look up the numbers on it and even in the, you know, the advantage of playing in this millennium versus the last, even if you modify the numbers for the era, Antonio Brown's six-year window was the greatest in the Super Bowl era for any receiver and that includes Jerry Rice, Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson, Marvin Harrison or anyone else you want to name. That six-year chunk that he had was the most dominant by a wide receiver.

And so I get the goal of doing that. But at some point, is it offset by, you know, I talked to Shazier, you know this and Cole. Ike Taylor talks all the time. He's like, I'm like, that team, that Steelers team is really loaded in terms of talent. This is four or five years ago I'm having this conversation with him. And he said, they are talented, but they aren't together the way we were. They're not playing for each other. And that's the missing ingredient.

And it does feel like that's what's happening here. Antonio Brown gets into that mix with Mike Evans and Chris Godwin. I could see that getting disrupted, that he is that he can disrupt any sort of chemistry that they might have going there. I wonder if they're going to regret having brought him in, especially midway through the season like that. You can actually just watch teams play. when you watch teams play and then just like see how they react when everybody makes plays. Like, the Steelers defense, when they make plays, like, everybody is like happy. Everybody, like, you can see it.

Like, they genuinely are happy. They're generally like, man, my guy just made a play. When the Chiefs' offense makes a play, they're genuinely like, my guy just made a play. Man, we're balling out here. We're the best team out here. When the Ravens play, everybody's like, man, we're out here bawling. Like, before it would be like, I'm making the play, it's me. You know, and like, and I'm not saying, like, the Steelers in general,

but I'm just saying, like, certain parts of the team were like that. And when the whole team isn't working together as one, that's when you start pulling away from each other and start attacking each other, like, hey, you're not pulling your weight. Like, we need you to pull your weight. Like, the Steelers, they understand, like, hey, our offense might start off slow. So we're going to be here for them.

And then once they start scoring, we're going to be just as happy for them. They are as us. But before, I remember we used to be like, we don't know what the hell everybody get from these guys. So let's go out here and do what we got to do. You know what I'm saying? And like, when you're doing that,

you can't win no championship. Well, I'll say this. You said Tomlin's maybe the best coach and there's a lot of talk about it. You know, maybe he will be the coach of the year. It's hard to imagine if the dolphins win that division that they're not good, that Brian Flores isn't going to get the coach of the year.

But, and I know that's not how coach you hand it out. Which is fraud, which is fraud, but it is crazy. But I'll let it go. I'll let it go. Well, it's- Brian Flores slender on the pot. No, no, I love him. I love him.

But Coach Tomlin deserves a coach of the year. He deserves one of them. He deserves one of them. They don't do lifetime achievement. They don't even do two. But if they would get one based on two years, years, actually like two and a half years. Now everybody has commented on like, wow, Tomlin was doing a much better job holding things together than we realized because he had Antonio Brown and Levy and Bell,

who let Bell, good teammate by all accounts, but, you know, was looking for that, looking for that bag. And then Antonio Brown making noise and otherwise. So Tomlin held that together. But if you just look at last year, he almost got that team with Doug Hodges to the playoffs. And defense dominant, like you're talking about, Shazier, we're not going to get anything from the other side. so it's all on us. And Cam Hayward deserves a lot of credit, I feel like, for rallying that defense and stepping up to unify that gang.

But then to flip the switch this year and be like, yeah, let's turn it over to our first ballot Hall of Famer, spread it out, go do something that is not typical of Pittsburgh Steelers, what America kind of identifies them as being, you know,

the aforementioned three yards and a cloud of dust people. I don't have to tell Shazir. People on the banks of the Three Rivers, no matter how good the Steelers are, they will always pipe for like, Dave, they, they got to get that, like a dude like Francoe back there

and just let him run, run, run, run, dude. He's running a ball, man. Yeah. All this, it's good and all, dude, but that day, they got to get a running back, dude, let the defense steal curtain. They say they ain't no mean Joe back there.

Like that, they want that, but that Tomlin is fluid enough. That's kind of a, the Belichick teams have been sort of chameleon-like and like, we'll take, what you give us. You know, that's, we'll play the game. We'll play it this week, this way,

and next week against a different opponent with a different set of talent and approach. We'll play it differently. I feel like that's kind of the winning method instead of saying, this is our identity, and this is how we're going to play it, no matter who's against us, doesn't work as well in this day and age.

It's like, listen, if you load up the box, we're going to spread you out, and we're going to, we're going to, go four wide on you and stop us from doing it that way. And I think that's kind of the winning approach. And you see that from Tomlin, like I say, over the last two years. Defense, defense, defense. What are we going to do? We have Mason Rudolph or Duck Hodges at QB. We ain't going to put up a lot of points. This year, it's the opposite. And, you know, Tomlin is overseeing both of those. And I'm with you 100 percent. He deserves credit. Defense is the Steelers insurance policy.

Just like Antonio Brown is the Tampa Bay Buccaneers insurance policy. If it was like Monopoly, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Bruce Arians, and Tom Brady, they'd be buying up like Baltic Avenue and Marvin Gardens, even though they already have boardwalk and park places. They're just doing it to make sure that everything is in place and all their ducks are in a row because Antonio O'Brien, at one point in time, you know, many said he was the best wide receiver in all of football.

Can I ask a question? I'm sorry, I know it's not my show, but I'm fascinated what Shazier thinks about this. What do you think about Lamar Jackson's offense right now? I said in 2019, I think that they were, I said before the season started, I said, I think that Lamar and company are going to jump the NFL for a year. They're going to dominate it. People won't know what to do with it. But given a summer to look at the tape, defensive coordinators will figure it out. Tennessee gave the template in the playoffs last January. And they've, listen, Lamar and company have still had flashes of dominance and they're not some mediocre bunch. But they are not as good as they were a year ago, has seen. something been figured out here fundamentally that's going to be hard for the Ravens to overcome. So I'm, I'm all for, you know, Lamar. I want him to be successful. And, you know, because he's from the same area I'm from. But I feel like he has the, he's having the Colin

Kaepernick, Robert Griffin kind of, you know, seen. He's coming. And the first year, he comes up and just shocks the world, you know, in just the first few years. And then now people are starting to catch up to them and all that gadget stuff isn't working as much. And like you said, people are just starting to understand, like running quarterback's amazing, but at a day, if you can't pass the ball, you just run the ball over the field is not going to beat us.

So I don't think this offense, the way it is, is going to continue to perform well. if Lamar continues to work on his craft and, you know, grows into how Russell did, you know, Russell was already an established quarterback a better Thor than Lamar was at the beginning. But, you know, he was still, he still has some ups and downs. But I feel if Lamar grows into how Russell did, I think it's a possibility he can become one of the best quarterbacks throwing wise if he just works at it like Russell did. but because Russell at first it was run, run, run, run, run, run.

Then, you know, now he's like pass happy. I can do whatever. And if they're trying to let him transition into that, I'm cool with that. But I feel like right now this offense can only last for this last year, this year, at most halfway of next year. But if they try to do this next year and on, it's not going to work. It didn't feel the same about Lamar Jackson as I felt about maybe Russell Wilson or Patrick of Holmes or Tom Brady or Drew Breeze.

when he had a minute and five to put up a game-winning drive versus the Patriots in that biblical kind of rainstorm. And, you know, not taking anything away from Lamar Jackson, but I just didn't think he had enough gas left in the tank to be able to guide that team, whether it's the passing game or his run game, which sometimes gets stifled a little bit when you see those biblical type rainstorms come down, especially right off of Interstate 95, but either way. I will say to be glass-half full about the Ravens going forward. And by the way, massive game for both them and the Titans. And I know it's a little early to be making declarations like this, but the loser, that one's really going to be behind the eight ball,

unless they add an eighth playoff team. They're really going to be kind of jammed up all of a sudden, if you look at the standings. But that late third quarter drive that Lamar put together against New England when they were down 13, that's cause for optimism. He was making some great throws. They had some bad calls against them and everything. I do think, though, that, you know,

you're going to be run heavy like that, they lose a Hall of Famer in the offseason at guard. And then they lose one of the best left tackles a couple of weeks ago. So, I mean, they're really. And now Nick Boyle, they're in, you know, they're jammed up. They've lost some personnel that's essential to them being able to grind you like that. So they better figure something out with Lamar throwing the ball. Or I just don't know how that team's going to keep up with, with the teams that can put up, you know, like I say, 30 points a game come January.

the Chiefs in Pittsburgh and so on. All right, the good times they continue to roll here, but we have plenty more to get to. So we're going to take a quick break, but we're going to hustle back right after this. How about in Arizona? Newk Hopkins, Kyler Murray, these guys on the same page that,

I mean, one of the best Hail Mary's that we've seen in quite some time. Ryan, what was your first thought when you saw a nuke go up to, I mean, touch the rafters and bring that ball down, not in single coverage, not in double coverage, but in triple coverage. And then he refers to himself as I.

You know, how did he say that? Like, I went in guy, he didn't say it in your, in your usual setting. He said it as only a guy like New Hopkins came. Yeah, he was just like, that man said, yeah, you know, like this, when somebody gets dumped on you. In basketball.

But he said it was three people. Yeah, no, but man, he's like, Dave, I, I said that kind of was going to be the MVP at the beginning of the season. And it's starting to pan out. You see both, Chazier. You would be both. It's starting to pan out.

And he's looking pretty good. The connection with Hop is great. And that was just an amazing play. That was an amazing play. He went against the three best players on the bills, like their defense-wise, most all three of them. And then we're going to get to that Moss, you know, which is crazy. You know, but no, he's,

He megatroned them. Let me say that. He megatrived them. Well. No, but it's crazy to me because they're having a crazy connection right now. And who would have said at the beginning of the season that it's a possibility that Cardinals can make into the playoffs and the Ravens couldn't? Well, that's exactly right.

And by the way, Newk Hopkins, there was a great catch. He went up and got it with three guys around them and everything. but if we have to give credit, more credit in my book goes to Kyler Murray than it does to nuke on that play because Kyler Murray is sprinting to his left. And before he gets to the sideline, he flips that ball 50 yards. And, I mean, try to do that. See how hard you can run to your offhand. And, I mean, that ball should have sailed out of bounds by all rights.

How did he even keep that ball in play, Kyler there was a remarkable play by him and Shane here? That's a baseball play. You see exactly, Ryan, we talked about those baseball quarterbacks. And Dave, you've seen the action in the Patrick Mahomes Velocity Invitational right out in the back parking lot of NFL network. You've been there before. You've seen that. Dave, we took him outside David Carr, who was the first overall pick there, Shazier, and I think it was 02 or 03. And minor league are extraordinary Cole Wright.

We saw who could throw a football faster and who could throw a baseball faster, which is which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, transfers better, the baseball pitcher arm to football or vice versa. And David Carr won that. Hold on a second. How did he, he threw a football 61. I threw a football 59. I threw a baseball 86. He threw a baseball 81. How does that, how does that make him the winner? All I know is that I once took, I was trying, Ryan, I was trying my best to boost because Ike Taylor had not a great season one year. And I thought to get him right to get his. confidence back. I put on an AJ Green jersey and we went out. We had a free throw shooting competition and I whipped him and I felt bad about it. It was not my intent to defeat him like that,

but I was too good. That's the problem with me is that I was too good in the same space where Colerite lost to David Carr. Wow. Oh, man. Velocity invitation. That's true. I beat a professional athlete in a sporting event. It's one of my greatest It's crazy. Cole, it seems like you constantly be coming to runner up. That's all right. If I have to lose something to David Carr, that's fine. You know, David comes in.

My daughter would come in and David drew her a picture of Peppa Pig. All the pictures that I drawn from my daughter, I think she put him in a drawer, and the Peppa Pig is still around kicking it. But either way, you know, let's get back to New Copland. When you see a ball go up like that, Ryan, to defend a Hail Mary, easier said than done. You know, some guys say, I'm going to swat it down. I'm going to try to make a play on it.

How do you actually defend that ball when it's in the air in the end zone like that? So when it's in the air, every coach in the USA should be telling you, I don't know what they're telling the people in Canada, but in the USA, they should be telling you, swat the ball, swat the ball, swat the ball. So is those guys out there that have like three picks and they're like, man, it's halfway through the season, I need a pick. So it's some of those guys that are trying to catch the pick. So now you went from swatting the pick to catch the pick.

So when it's you versus Newk Hopkins on who's going to catch this ball, now it's a guy that has almost 100 catches on the season, and it's a guy that has three. So who's going to win that battle? But you're really supposed to swat the ball down because if you swat it down, it's a really hard opportunity for them to catch it. But if you're going up for the catch, Now both of y'all are catching it at the same point.

And obviously, a receiver, that's their job. And your job is actually stopping them from catching it. So your experience of catching the ball is and it's high. So that's why coaches normally tell you to swat it. But when you're defending a whole Hail Mary play in general, every team's a little bit different. Because, for instance, the Steelers, when they have Hail Marys, they tend to send some type of blitz or they rush the passer.

while some teams sit back and have the whole damn team in the end zone and then you just like, hey, we're building this wall and you have to get through this wall. So if you're rushing the quarterback, obviously, Kyle Murray just shook everybody and got back there, you know, so he did an amazing job. But if you're rushing the quarterback and you rush to the side that they're normally trying to throw to.

So Kyle was going to try to throw to his right. but obviously he has new to his left, so he had to go to his left. But you normally try to, like, have, like, a pocket to try to, but you let the pocket be wider than it normally is, but have a pocket to try to force them back inside the original pocket. And that's when you're blessing them. When you're just rushing three guys,

now you're just hoping on your D.Bs to make the right decision. And sometimes they don't make the right decision. I'll tell you, to me, I hear what Shazier is saying about knock it down. But the thing that's ultimately diabolical about the Hail Mary is if you have the QB, you know, Russell Wilson is really good at this. This is why he throws as our pal TD likes to say the sexiest deep ball in pro football. He's because he throws it and it skims the surface of the moon and then comes back down.

If it takes that kind of trajectory, I don't know what the DBs ultimately supposed to do. I always think about the NFC title game in 2014 when the Packers had the huge lead and the Seahawks rallied on them. And they had a series of freakish plays that allowed the Seahawks to survive that one in overtime. But key among them was the two-point conversion. It was a Hail Mary essentially from about the two-and-a-half yard line because it was a two-point conversion. Russell Wilson rolls to his right, and he just throws one of those moon balls just over the goal line to the other side. And ha-ha Clinton Dix, for all his talent, there was nothing he could do because the ball was dropping almost literally from high in the sky. Right. The DB had no play on the ball.

And that's kind of what happened, I feel like, to the Bill's DBs the other day is what were they supposed to do, really? New Hopkins is right there. The ball is falling straight down from the sky. you're going to knock that ball down. It's really a hard play to make. And that's what's so vexing, I guess, if you win the game for 59 minutes and 58 seconds, that if the other team is within a touchdown that they can get you on one of those freakish kind of place, it's remarkable that we haven't seen that off the top of my head at least a game decided not by a successful catch, but by a PI. I'm surprised that no game has come down to like a Hail Mary. Oh, P.I.

No, you can't call it. I know you can't. I know you did, but I said something. someday it's going to happen. And then America's really going to flip out. So I just, I just watched the play again. Trudevius White tried to catch the pick. If you go up with one hand, he tried to catch the pick. And if you go up with one hand, you jump higher with one than two. So he tried to pick the ball off.

And New Hopkins is taller than him. And he has way more experience catching the ball than him. So he got lost. Or he got Megatron. Okay. Which leads us to the wide receiver. chatter because Megatron, I feel like Ryan is going to put Megatron as his top wide receiver of all time.

Best wide receiver today, most underrated, and your favorite wide receiver. Ryan, I'm going to start with you, man. Who you got? Best receiver today. I can't use Mike Thomas because Mike is hurt. I want to like say somebody else that everybody else is not saying. Because one of y'all are going to say, nuke.

So... Not me? He's not your best receiver today? He's not my best receiver right now. I mean, he's fantastic, no doubt about it. But he's not who I'm going with. Right now, I'm going to go with Stefan Diggs. Wow.

That's a wild card. Love that. That's fun. I'm going to go on Stefan Diggs right now. Okay. Most underrated, Deonté Johnson. When he's healthy, when he's healthy, he's really, really good. He's really good. But he just hurt a lot.

He's heard a lot. my best my favorite all-time mr owing's hmm that's a good name the best of all time is megatry oh come on so i didn't hear anyone say no jerry rice no no he's Calvin Johnson Calvin Johnson is the receiver version of Andrew luck before he even went on to an NFL field he was kissed into the Hall of Fame I always had I feel like um it was a little he did this on a regular he did this on a regular did. Listen, he had a run

there where he really did put it together for a few years and was and was plum dominant. How about you, Dick? Best today, most underrated, favorite wide receiver. Who you go? I might want to change my mind too. I might want to change my mind too. You already had your chance, Ryan. You can't change your mind,

man. You've known about this. I'm going to go with, I know it's easy to say coming off of what we just saw, but New Copkins because as opposed to everybody, else. And Julio Jones, I know people say, like, well, imagine if he didn't have Matt Ryan. Well, Matt Ryan, if they get a stop, if Julian Edelman doesn't make that bobbling catch in 51, we talk about Matt Ryan as a Hall of Famer. And people laugh now, but Matt Ryan would be on his way

to the Hall of Fame, given his numbers. And if you put a ring on his finger, which he just about had, that would be the conversation. So that's a little overstated as far as I'm concerned. But Newt Hopkins is the one guy you hold up and say, has he ever? rightly had a great QB. He had one, you know, and he finally catches one with DeShan and now has another good one in Kyler, but he succeeded despite the QB in Houston for a long time. And he doesn't have the classic skill set that, you know, Julio, I mean, some of those guys were freakish. Antonio Brown was kind of the antithesis of that when you had Calvin Johnson and Julio rule in the NFL was like, oh, a guy who's under six feet can be productive.

And not fast. Yeah, nuke, nuke isn't fast. He's not six foot four or anything else. But man, he's consistently productive no matter who you give him. Here's another one that's lame to throw out. But I'm going to say it anyway because you watch him play year and in year out. And he's always open as Keenan Allen. Somehow when you make your list up, when people do that, like who are the three or five best receivers?

Keenan Allen's name drops off those lists all the time. And by that measure, he's a little underrated because he's always. open. He's always open no matter who's against. I'm a switch Montecuio. Allen. I'm switching mine and Keenanality. I'm going to switch the same thing that Dave said. I mean, how unoriginal is that? I mean, Ryan, you're better than this. You're 100% better than this. You didn't have to go with somebody that's in the league right now, Dave, for the most underrated, but you did. And then now, as but not least, who's your favorite? You go all time, Ryan, I'll give you a second to think, because we're going to get Dave's favorite wide receiver. Oh, most underrated of all time.

Then I'm going to rattle mine off and then Ryan, then we'll get back to you because you have one last chance, one last chance. So Dave, who's your favorite of all time? I'll give you. Listen, here's the list. It's a fun list to put together is the best wide receivers in the Super Bowl era. We can debate and a lot of people say, oh, you're being too difficult by trying to put Randy Moss ahead of Jerry Rice. Here's the thing that affects Jerry Rice negatively, if we can say anything negative about those numbers that he has. Same thing as Eric Dickerson, if you guys watched either or both of those guys play.

They were a little bit like Michael Johnson, the sprinter, the Olympic sprinter for the U.S., which is to say they run as though it's 1953. They have that like when you see that old grainy black and white video of old athletes running, they have that super upright style. Like it's too clean. Eric Dickerson and Jerry Rice, summon for me. a single play from either one of them where you ever saw them get dirty. They never left their feet.

It's like, I don't think I ever saw either one of those guys get tackled. I never saw Jerry Rice have to lunge and dive to catch a pass. And in a way, it affects your brain. You're like, well, I think of Randy Moss jumping up over two guys to catch a ball and bobbling it. That just never happened to Jerry Rice. They made it look too easy in a way. I've talked with Eric Dickerson about this.

And he agrees, as a matter of fact. He's like, yeah, that upright running style kind of trips your brain up. It's almost like how Notre Dame defensive ends wear the number six now. It's like, that doesn't look right. I don't know what the make of it. But looking at that. So I guess you go Jerry Rice, Randy Moss. And then I really do go Antonio Brown number three in the Super Bowl era.

And then, you know, Terrell Owens has to be in the mix. And Larry Fitzgerald does. But you know, and Michael Irvin has to be in there. Steve Smith. Guy who's starting to fall off the table a little. Man, two guys. One is Steve Largent. The numbers are impossible to debate.

Yeah. But you're exactly right. Steve Smith, if you float that name, if you float the name Steve Smith to people, people will debate you on whether or not he's a Hall of Famer. What? Come on. Come on. Oh, yes.

Oh, yes. We'll get a debate from people about Steve Smith. Ryan, are you debating if Smithy Agent 89 is a Hall of Famer or not? See, like, when you just think of Steve Smith in his game, yeah, you say that. Then you look at his numbers in your. you're like, oh, damn, he's a hall of favor. But, like, when you're just like watching Steve Smith play, you're just like, I don't know.

Like, to me, to me, I'm just saying, when I think of football and you think of guys' names that you have to bring up when you think of the game of football of all time, I don't feel like, to me, Steve Smith's not one of the names that comes to my mind. Okay. All right. I don't feel like he, to me, do you feel like he changed the game?

I feel like at least for under-suffalo. wide receivers and it's not taking anything away from what he did. But, I mean, he played like he was six foot five each and every single time. He stepped out on the field. I mean, he was not the size of Megatron. But I'll tell you what, his value was worth at least the same as Megatron every time he was out there on the field. If you ask any quarterback that played with Smitty, I'm going to guarantee that they're

going to say the same thing. All right. Yeah, 14,000 yards. Yeah, he's, I mean, if I'm not mistaken, six all time when it comes to receiving yards, the man right there knew how to rack him up. Now, before we get on out of here, I'm going to hit you guys with my, wide receiver rank is when it comes to the best wide receiver today wait a second jazeer did anybody even ask him for his i mean i have to it's kind of obligatory yeah it's kind of

i'm gonna go with with the wild card here i'm gonna go with devonthe adams great is that a wildcourt is it a wild car i mean i didn't even hear any any mentions or any his name get kicked around when you guys are talking about top flight cats in league right now devante adams i'm telling you take your eyes off him he's going to break your back each and every single time. Great call. Okay, now how about this? That's the only kind of calls I make, Dave.

Just great ones. From front to back. How about the most underrated wide receiver of all time? Oh, by the way, it's his birthday on this Tuesday. I'm going to go with seventh grade Reggie Wayne, our guy from NFL Network Day. Brettie Wayne, I mean, he was a number one. He was a number two. He was a guy who got it done each and every single step of the way.

You can't get a whole bunch better than Reggie Wayne when it comes to underrated wide receivers. Man, oh, man. That is such a good. call and you know he's that's another guy who definitely has got to get a gold jacket. I mean, people want to debate that one. Well, you had Peyton Manning. What would he have done? What would Peyton Manning have done? What would Marvin Harrison have done? Right. What would those, you know, it applies to Marvin Harrison as well. Like that would Marvin Harrison have those extraordinary numbers without Reggie Wayne on the other side for all those years? That's a marvelous call.

That's another guy. People want to debate, yeah, no. That extraordinary mustache, Marvin would, if it was not for Reggie. But he might not have the same amount of yards and all those numbers if Reggie Wayne wasn't on the other side of Marv. And then, okay, last but not least, I'm going to my favorite wide receiver. It doesn't get any better than Randy Moss. Randall Jean Moss. I mean, Dave, I'm going to name drop again because when I worked at Fox one day, Randy came into our show media, he came in a little bit late.

And Randy's like, hey, y'all, sorry for being. light, man. I was at this open gym, man, giving these holes this business. Can you imagine going to open gym at Equinox in Hollywood in Los Angeles? And let me get a quick run right here. And oh, who's that 360 Dunkin on Cats? Oh, it's just Randy Moss, the greatest wide receiver in the history of the league. Sorry. There are a lot of DBs that'll tell you he was better than Jerry Rice. It's not a completely fair. I'm not a DB, but I'll tell you that too. Yeah, I will too. I will too. Pure favorite guy, though, we're talking about, I mean, I grew up watching Lynn Swamp because I'm older than you guys.

We said our favorite. We didn't say the best of all time. My favorite is the best of all time. It's Wrangled Jean Moss. Country is cornbread. I didn't know that most underrated was, like, of all time. So I'm going to go with Andre Johnson on that one. Oh, I like that one.

Boy, that is a great one. Yeah, that's another guy who just dominated. I thought that was talking about, like, now. You know, but if we're talking about like, I'm going to go Andre Johnson. And then I'm not going to lie. Yeah, Steve Smith, his numbers are pretty damn good. His numbers are better than Hans Wards. I was just looking at that.

Heinz Ward's another guy who I feel bad. Like, I feel like it's tracking that he's not going to get his jacket. And it's too bad because he was as consistent as it got despite not having the physical, you know, the 40 time and the stature and everything else. One more name, just because if you want to look up people, because I'm a nerd, and I like to look on YouTube and find highlights of guys. One of the most fun guys to ever watch in pro football is John Jefferson from those Dan Fouts, Eric Corrielle Chargers teams.

You want to see a guy wore the goggles like Corrine did, but you want to see a highlight reel. Look up John Jefferson with the Chargers around about 1980. You'll swoon. All right. Well, I'm going to open a mind encyclopedia Britannica as soon as we get out of here because our time has run its course. As fun as it has been,

I'm getting all kinds of notes saying that we're way over time. We are way over time. And that's what happens when you bring this trifect it together. And that's going to bring this edition of the Tuesday edition of the Ringer NFL show to a close. So for Ryan, Shazir, and Dave Damasek, I'm Cole Wright. Make a note, we're part of the Ringer podcast network. And you can follow us over on Spotify or wherever you listen and subscribe to your podcast. Also follow us over on Twitter at the Ringer NFL.

Now next Tuesday, we'll be back again. And then Wednesday on the Ringer NFL show, you can count Warren Sharp and Chris Bunnan to give you all those thoughts, analytics, embedding insights, as they do, every single step of the way. So for Ryan Chaser, and my guy, young David Damashek, I'm Cole Wright. It's been a pleasure, guys. Dave, what do you always say? A what? Fin slice of heaven.

There we go. We'll see you next time. Or pie. See you, peace.