The Ringer NFL Show - Conference Championship Recap | Dual Threat

Episode Date: January 29, 2024

Nora and Steven are here to give their reactions to the conference championships. They start off with the NFC championship and the 49ers’ thrilling comeback against the Lions (01:25). They discuss Dan Campbell’s fourth-down decision-making, what went right for the Niners in the second half, and whether Detroit should sign Jared Goff to a long-term extension. After that, they talk about the Chiefs' win over the Ravens in the AFC championship, how errors cost Baltimore the game, and the shift in Kansas City’s offense the past few weeks (31:29). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Steven Ruiz Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Social: Kiera Givens and Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody. It's Austin Rivers from Offguard, and I've got some exciting news. Offguard hosted by me and my guide, Pasha Gigi, is officially moving to our own podcast feed. We are now dropping two shows every week. Me and Pasha go way back and talk so much hoops already that we figured it was time to fire up the mics and let you in on these conversations. Every week, Pasha and myself will hit on the biggest stories happening around the league. Tap into the show twice a week on our new Offguard feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Norm Fintziotti. And I'm Stephen Ruiz.

And the Super Bowl is set. Chiefs Niners, two weeks from now in Las Vegas, we just spent a conference championship Sunday watching the Chiefs beat the Ravens in an early upset. And then the Niners come back from a 17-point deficit in the NFC championship game against the Lions. Two games that I think are going to. going to be really, really memorable for both sides and particularly painful, I think, for the losing teams. But let's start with the NFC. Let's start with the 49ers and the Lions. Brock Party and the Niners, as we mentioned, they came back from a 17-point deficit. They scored 27 unanswered points in this game in what was just the third quarter from the depths of hell.

for Detroit. And I think we should start there just because there's going to be a lot of, I think, regret that comes out of this. And some of that is intermingled with the fourth down discourse and all of the would have, could have should have. But to me, the story of this game is just the lions blowing some really critical situations. And it starts with the fourth down drop by Reynolds. that then when the Niners get the ball back, then becomes the dropped interception that turns into the 51 yard. Brandon I,

a completion that sets up the touchdown. Just one of the craziest plays that we saw on a day when there was a bunch. I mean, do you want to pick it up from there, Stephen, or just sort of what was going through your mind while you were watching things unravel for the Lions after they had built this pretty surprising lead early. in the game. Of the two fan bases are the two teams that lost today, like I feel for the

Lions more than the Ravens, because it, like, which is kind of weird, because the Ravens, I still feel like after today's events that they were the best team in the NFL this year. I don't think like today's events sway me in any way. The Lions, on the other hand,

I feel like they weren't a better team today against the 49ers. Like they're on paper and they dominated the beginning. And they really, like you said, just gave the game away. And it has to feel like they didn't get beat, that they lost the game. And I don't know,

that just makes it so much harder to stomach, especially with the Lions, just because you know that Ben Johnson might be going somewhere else. Right. It looks like he's going to be the head coach of Washington. And we know how important he was to this setup and why this team was so special.

He was a big part of that. And with him leaving now, this really did feel like their best chance, or maybe their last chance. I don't want to bury them already. We don't know who the new offense coordinator would be. But it feels like a real missed opportunity where in the other game, it felt like the team that lost,

it's really like the beginning of their story as Super Bowl contenders every year, where it does feel like the Lions missed a real chance. And just in the worst way possible, because they had their hand on the ball so many different times for so many potential game-changing plays, even down to the last play, even the onside kick,

the last play that mattered in the game. Right in their hands. It just, it's a perfect metaphor. Unreal. So, Iyke makes that completely ridiculous catch. I mean, you know, the screen grabs can sometimes be misleading. But there is a screen grab of that play where Vildor is like on his back foot and his hands are above his helmet. And the ball is just between his hands, like an inch inside both of his hands.

And then Brandon Iyke is like a yard away just like, right. just like running. And the fact that that became not only not an interception, but one of the game-changing plays for the 49ers just kind of sums up the day for the Lions. That was followed up by the third down. Another drop by Reynolds on third down when the Lions were trying to drive an answer. Then they had the fumble. Then there were the issues in punt coverage.

And all of a sudden, over the course of 15 minutes, It had been 24 to 7 and it's a tie game 24 to 24. Dan Campbell, obviously, is fair or not the main character in a lot of this. The Josh Reynolds drop early was on a fourth and two that he decided to go for. He went for a fourth and three later on where Jared Gauph sort of got pushed out of the pocket and through incomplete maybe missed an open receiver on that play, but just sort of had had bailed and given up on what he was doing. There's a lot of takes going on about fourth down decision making and aggressiveness and

taking the points as if points are just like low-hanging fruit that one plucks from a tree. Do you have a thesis statement here? Do you have your own take to offers, Stephen? I know I have mine, but. No, my take is like every rational person's take who has been watching the NFL season all year long has been impressed by Dan Campbell over the last couple years. Like, we celebrate, we can't vilify him for the things that we celebrate him for usually. Like, it's just so dumb. Like, it's, I know you say every rational person, these are not the people who are, like,

I don't know. I think I follow rational people. And yet I'm looking on the internet and it's just like, gotta take the points, man. Gotta take the points. And I just, I don't, you are yelling at math. Like, you're just simply yelling at math. Both of those situations, most, you know, there's different models and we don't know exactly how the Lions calculate that stuff. It was sort of a coin flip. And exactly like you said, we have praised

this team all year long. They got to this point by taking chances. And it is really tough that two critical ones didn't go the way they wanted in the NFC championship game. But it is just the cognitive dissonance

of like that's not playing to win combined with the overall narrative around Dan Campbell and the Lions is like it's just silly. It just doesn't make any sense. Right. Like the thing that like really, I don't know if infuriates the word that like makes me laugh because I'm like it's so frustrating is that somehow

the like football guy, the tough guy take on fourth downs is to not go for it. Like to have the kicker. Actually, let's send the 510 160 pound kicker out there and then put it on like no win the football game go out and win the football game. Let's play some soccer. How about

Reynolds catches the football? How about Jerry golf whenever he has to move whenever he has to move more than two feet? How about he doesn't throw like a slider to his receivers every time? Like it's a terrible throw, a bad catch. The last thing that was wrong with it was the decision to go

for it. Right. And I think that, look, I think both of those were less so the play call than just poor execution. I mean, Goff, once he is on the move, you're dealing with diminishing returns pretty quickly there. Right. So like once the pressure gets there and the pocket collapses, it's going to be tough sledding. In both cases, though, you just, you have, look, you have an issue of player execution. And that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. The one, I think, play calling mistake, and this is not a, this is not a fourth down thing, this is not an aggressiveness thing.

But on their last drive before they ended up having to go for the onside kick, when they had third down, I thought Greg Olson was very right to point out on the broadcast that calling that running play on third down, which they didn't get and then deciding to use a time out when the clock was running after they didn't get it, necessitating the onside kick being their only hope to come back and try to win the game, which obviously they didn't get it and and the 49ers closed it out that way. That, I think, is a space where, you know, if you're looking for a place to criticize a coaching decision, I think that's totally fair game. Right.

But the fourth down stuff is very silly to me. Especially, like, at the end of the half, he kind of had a similar situation. I know, like, it changes the math because, like, field position isn't an issue when you're going into the half. But he kicks the field goal in the second quarter. And, like, I felt like that was a worse decision than going for it when he did. I don't know. It's just so inconsistent how we talk about this stuff.

Because I've never heard anyone complain about Dan Campbell going for it on fourth down until literally tonight. I don't think I've ever heard it before. It's his whole thing. It's his thing. Robert Griffin, I saw him tweeted something. Where it was just, and I'm going to paraphrase, and it was not, it was totally like innocuous or maybe even a good point. But it was just something about like, ah, you're going down and you're not biting kneecaps. And I just had a moment of like, what if you were an alien who was just beamed down to Earth and you saw this sentence or just for someone who didn't follow up?

Like, what are we doing here? But anyway, I thought overall, like, I find it strange that, you know, I think a lot of the headlines tomorrow morning are going to be about Campbell's gamble. and to me that's not right. It's failures in critical spots, mostly due to execution. And, you know, look, just a furious comeback from the Niners. And I was thinking a lot last week, obviously, because the divisional round was what it was,

and we were talking about Brock Purdy, and I was trying to, you know, go through the list of like, okay, what does this guy do well? And I got to say near the top. of the list for me, he's not, he's never scared. He's never, he's never turtling

in a big situation. And I do think that matters. And I do think the fact that he came out in, in the second half especially, made a ton of plays with his legs. Was really important for them. I don't think he played a great game. No.

No, no. This was the game that showed off. Like, that's the, that's the thing that's so, that makes it so different. to talk about him is that I feel like in order to explain his production

without just being like, oh, it's the teammates, it's the play calling. You kind of have to fill in those narrative gaps and you have to be like, oh, he's doing this because of this. And then you kind of you go, oh, accuracy and anticipation. And that's, but what you saw today, which I thought was a really impressive performance,

especially in the second half, like none of that was the reason he was good tonight. He was not accurate tonight. He did not anticipate tonight. He just improvised. Like, he went backyard football. And like, if we talked about him in those terms, I think it would be so much easier to, like, I feel like the big thing this week was two people having arguments against people that don't exist. There was the guy, the people on one side that were like, why can't we just say Brock Purdy are like, why can't we just celebrate him for what he is? Why do we have to like say he sucks? And then there's the other people that are like

on the other end of that spectrum. And I think like, if the truth, like, the truth, truth is somewhere in the middle as it usually is. And I think tonight was a really good illustration of what he actually does well in, like, what he provides this offense that the past quarterback did not. And it's not, the irony is that it is not what you would sort of stereotypically call a game manager. Like, that is not who he is at all. And when they win, when he helps them win, that's not what it is. So it's even like, even I think the very, the pro-Brock Purdy narrative is like game managers get a bad rap and that's what you need to win in the NFL.

But it's just like, that's not when he's great, when he helps them, that's, it's not like, we're not like going out there and being Alex Smith. He's not like going to the line and like checking the protection and then like getting a check down on time like Tom Brady. Like, that's not what this is. It's like, that's what makes the conversation so difficult. And the other part is, like, we're getting the terms wrong. He's not a game manager. No one's calling him a game manager. The people like me are calling him a system quarterback.

And there's a very clear difference between those two things. There's like a guy getting propped up by a system. And then there's a guy that's like a caretaker. If you watch Brock Bertie and your takeaway is that he's a game manager, then like, I don't think you know what you're watching. That's not managing a game. He does not manage a game. He, like, I think that's what's so refresh.

about him, especially for 49ers fans who have had to watch Jimmy G. And I wouldn't call Jimmy G a game manager. Jimmy G's not a game manager. Jimmy G makes some of the dumbest plays you've ever seen. He does the opposite of managing the game. I think this offense is conducive to that talk. Yeah. Well, but Jimmy also, like, he does have that very, very quick release.

Like, it makes a little more sense to me with Jimmy. Okay, let me ask you one thing. What's the main thing with game managing is protecting the football? And would anyone ever say that Jimmy G is like a guy who protects the football? It's like he does the opposite of it. That's, see, I don't know that I would. I think a lot of people would say that the main thing with game managing, which again, therein lies the issue, because this isn't a real thing.

So everyone would say a different thing. I would have said like sort of like quick progression accuracy on like short. intermediate throw. It's like efficient but not explosive offenses come out of players who are game managers. And Jimmy probably is a closer fit, although I certainly take your point on that. With Purdy, I mean, he scrambled for six first downs in this game. He was like, he's like Lamar out there today, which is not, I mean, I'm sort of kidding. But it was a really both in terms of of scrambling to throw and scrambling on keepers

and he was really productive for them and those were examples of him sort of, you know, taking a play in his hands, taking the game in his hands, and just going and doing it. And I thought it was impressive. Also, the most important passing play in this game went in between a defender's hands

and then bounced up his helmet. This is such a good game for the discourse. I hate it so much, but it's also really funny. Just the Sunday in general, not even the game. It was a doubleheader of bad discourse football. Yeah. We're never going to be able to solve for who Brock Purdy really is, but I do think that this was a very amusing version of it.

And I do, look, there's been a thing with the 49ers about making comebacks and coming back from deficits. And he's done it twice in a row. Okay, okay. This one was fake. I'm not even trying to take credit. This is not me being a hater. This one was fake or fake? Fake.

Yeah, he came back or they came back. The offense came. Both. I mean, this comeback was based on a 50-yard pass, like you said, that went through a defender's hand. And then a fumble on the first play on the ensuing drive. This was not a proper, like, 14-point comeback. It was a silly comeback. It was, we don't have to, like, act like this bust the narrative that Kyle Shane-A and offenses can't come back.

And I would say the same thing about last week. Like that was like you were on here last week saying like, Bernie was terrible. He had one good drive. And like one good drive does not usually make a comeback. I'm totally with you. I also look, to be very explicitly clear,

I don't think he was very good as a quarterback in this game. I'm just, I'm interested in the exploration of what he does well. And yes. I do believe that a lot of, a lot of high level sports is, is stress management. And this is where, and like I tend to not like to think this way,

but this is where I veer a little bit into just like, you got to believe territory. I think there are some situations where if you have, you know, the lines win probability with eight minutes and 29 seconds left in the third quarter, it was 90%. And five minutes later in the, it was in the 50s. And they end up, you know, they don't throw the game away. They end up pulling out.

The 49ers consistently scored in the second half. I do think there is something to be said for just continuing to go out and generate offense in those situations. And now they got a lot of help. They got an absolute ton of help because it is very hard to come back from 17 points down. And I think there are players who would crumble. and I think in particular there are players who don't have a lot of experience which he doesn't really have a lot of experience

and I think that's impressive so you know just just taking some time to give the man his due yeah he was very good at scraming like that's what like you said that's what won the game like this was one of the examples of him winning them a game this year

like it hasn't happened often it's not because he's failed it's because he hasn't needed to and I would say this was way more impressive than the Packers game. Right, right. And that drive. That's definitely true. That is definitely true. What did you think about the 49ers on the defensive side?

Because when Detroit got up early, things were not going so well for a while. They were giving up third lungs. They were not tackling very well. They were having a lot of trouble in space. The Lions were really winning that battle for the middle of the field. But then, obviously, thanks to a lot of those key plays and those big high variance moments going their way, things got a lot better. And Detroit stopped scoring. Where after 60 minutes do you come out on the 49ers defense?

It's tough. Just because matchups, like, this is such a tough offense when you have run defense problems. And they're, like, perfectly suited to exploit those problems. And that's what they were doing. And I thought, I didn't think the 49ers overreacted. I think they realized, like, they just have to get pressure on golf. And once they start getting pressure, that it's going to change the game. And that's what happened.

Jared Goff, at one point, his CPOE was minus 49% under pressure. So, like, the equivalent of that is, like, take, like, a 100% guaranteed thing. Jared Goff was turning that. And, like, like, me handing you a football is, like, on 100% completion probability. Jerikoff was turning that into a 50-50 proposition when he was under pressure.

That's what that stack means. Like mine is 49% which is insane. But I think like the 49ers did a really good job of just sticking to their plan and knowing like eventually the dam would break

and I think it did. And the bounces helped and I thought the bounces kind of got Detroit out of their positive game script. And then at the same time, I don't want to give them too much credit because like we've said

so many times Detroit had passes in their hands. and dropped it. And that changes how we view a defensive performance. If they catch those passes, I don't think we're sitting here going, wow, 49-ish defense did really well. I think we're saying, wow, the 49th defense got killed all game long, and they never adjusted. So I'm impressed that they didn't panic.

I don't think the defense is better than it was in the first half. I think they got a little bit more lucky. It's going to be an interesting thing to think about for. Super Bowl because you think of this iteration of the Chiefs, a lot of the offense is going through Isaiah Pacheco. A lot of what they're doing is winning in the trenches and riding a pretty north-south, downhill-oriented running game. And for this 49ers defense, they had a tough matchup in the Lions, especially early

being able to run the ball. The Packers were able to. to run on them. And it's such a funny, like, we don't think of the chiefs that way, but that's a lot of what that offense has turned into. And it's an interesting test to see if they'll be able to do it again. And it'll probably end up being a big part of the Super Bowl. So you mentioned the Ben Johnson factor seems reasonably likely that he could be going to Washington

and not being there. going forward. Jared Goff, however, there's a lot of reports going around that they're going to talk about a contract extension this off season. There have been points in the past

where, you know, there's been some question as to whether he was sort of a bridge quarterback there, but they're full go, I think. And they've got a fair bit of cap space. They've obviously built a nucleus there and they've got some young talent,

but where do you think it goes? And what do you think the, the sort of biggest hinges are in terms of where the lines go from here. I think they're bought in already. Like, you hear Dan Campbell, you hear Brad Holmes talk about Jared Gough. It doesn't sound like there's this dilemma for them. I don't know if this game changes that. I don't see why it would because they kind of overachieve just to get here.

I think he signs with them. I think he gets his money. There were Jared Gough chants going on in the Detroit airport. at a half time of this game. They were chaining at the Pistons game today. Yeah. They were chaining at the Pistons game today. Jared Koff's name.

It's insane. But I do think the problem is that we saw it today. Like the fact that the 49ers were able to not panic and that they could just be like, we just stick with our plan. Like, Jerikoff will come to us. Like, that's all we have to do. I think that, like, show something. And I think, like, you look at the other three quarterbacks today that played today.

and they didn't all play well. Like Lamar Jackson, for instance, didn't play well. But he kept his offense viable by moving. Patrick Mahomes early in that game, they didn't do anything in the second half. But when they scored the first two drives, Patrick Mahombs did that by moving. Brock Purdy, when, like we talked about,

when the offense wasn't working, he made it work by moving. And that's just how the game is played. That's how the position is played these days. And Jared Gough, like, yes, you can, if you put him in a good system, if you give him a good offensive line and everything's right,

He's going to make good throws. Like he's a talented throw of the football. But if you speed him up a little bit, that's, he's, I don't want to say useless, but there's points in the game where he seems useless. Like, he can't do things. And I just don't know how you pay that quarterback in 2024. I think that's obviously a philosophical choice on their part. Reportedly, resetting the quarterback market is not important to him.

Probably a good thing because the top of the quarterback market is like $55 million a year. But I've seen this film before. So never say never. He's very humble. Someone said, hey, Jared Gop, do you think you should make more than Patrick Mahomes? And he's like, no, no, no, I shouldn't actually. No, no, no, no. No, no.

No, no. Just a little, just a hair under. And that'll be fine for me. So, yeah, look, it's a, it's a different way of doing business. At the same time, I do think this was the best. of Jared Gough's career. I mean, do you think those, like, he's, he's gotten better. And that doesn't change, that doesn't change inherent limitations of, of his running ability,

his physical ability. But I do think that he has gotten better. And he just had the best season of his career. And, you know, we shouldn't underestimate the possibility that people continue to learn, I suppose. I'm trying to end on a on a positive note. No, for me, it's kind of like the Kirk Cousins thing. Like a couple years ago, Kirk Cousins became good. And like...

I'm glad you said it because otherwise I was going to have to. And I don't mean like, like he was always a decent quarterback, but he actually became like a quarterback that we should talk about, like in terms of like being a top 10 quarterback. But with him, it's just like, yeah, he's good now, but it also just doesn't matter. It would be like if you now, like if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, I got really good at like multiple occasion tables right now.

Like that doesn't serve me well. But if I knew that when I was in second grade, I would be like killing it. But like it's too late. We don't care anymore. Like it's never. The thing with golf is like no matter, like when it matters, he's going to lose.

But there's still, I don't know. Sometimes. And also like, let's think about it. And one of the takeaways from today, should be that the NFC and the FACC are not the same. And building if you're in the NFC is a little bit of a different thing

than if you're building in the AFC. We're like, and maybe we'll use this to pivot into the Chiefs Ravens game. But like part of me came out of today just being like, when the Brady-era patriots were cooking and winning Super Bowls, there were a lot of good teams

and a lot of good quarterbacks who just never got that. moment and never got a championship and just didn't get there because they were blocked. And a lot of the AFC, I think, is going to continue to be like that. Because if this chiefs team is going to the Super Bowl, then it is just so hard to knock them out. Yeah. In the NFC, I think you can make the argument that if you have a quarterback on, you know, second, third, starter contract, salary,

but not at the very top of the market. Cap goes up every year, and you put a really good infrastructure around him. I get it. I get it. But you think that about the NFC because of Jared Gough? Like, he's the guy in the hot dogs, you go, and I wonder, like, why the top teams in the NFC

aren't reliable year to year. It's because of Jared Gough's one of the quarterbacks. Yeah, but what if the other one? That's why it's like that in the NFC. Brock Purdy's going to the Super Bowl. Like, you can compete like this. I know, but Jared Gough was on the sideline watching him scramble and being like, man, I wish I could do that. Like, he was looking at Brock Purdy and be like, if only I had his talent.

Like, that's the point. Like, it's never going to happen with Jared Gough. He's never going to be able to run a four, seven. It's a low bar. I'm not even asking for like a four or five. He's never going to be able to throw on the run. And that's like a thing you can't work around. Like football doesn't work like that.

We need to get Jared Kopp just like a sprinting coach. What we need is like Detroit needs to hire a lobbyist who goes to the rules committee and makes every quarterback have to play from a bar stool from now on. Then he would be the best. If he had like a swively chair like I have. If he had a swively chair like this, like an office chair, he would be like, oh my God, how did I ever play without this before? He would be like a new layer of mobility for him.

That's the problem. Like his game would not change if he played from. a bar stool. And like, you can't win in the NFL like that anymore. Could Jared Gough be better? Certainly. It's just they don't, you know, they don't grow on trees. I just think it's, I don't know. I have to say that I get it. And I think it's, it's sometimes scary to go into that great beyond. And the way that this team works together, the way all the, you know, you need the offensive lion and at some point if that's not as good as it is now he's going to be in more trouble than

he was the season and it all has to work together but I just I can't sit here and honestly tell you that I'm like this is a horror you know extending Jared Goff is the worst decision the lions are are going to make for the future of their franchise that's all yeah I mean like you're also the lions and like you have to like if signing him ensures that you are going to be a playoff contender for like the next two years then like yeah you make that move. You might not win a Super Bowl, but like, this is new territory for the Lions. And I think, like, even like, if they made the playoffs three years in a row, it would be literally the

greatest stretch in the history of the franchise. I don't even have to win another playoff game. This was the best season in Lions history. I just realized. Happy Super Bowl to all who celebrate from Fanduil, America's number one sportsbook. If you're like me, Super Bowl Sunday is all about scoring the best seat on the couch, grabbing your favorite football snacks, and placing some super bets. Like, maybe you might want to bet on Super Bowl 58, if I was you, I would bet on the under in that game.

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Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit the ringer.com slash RG. $10 first deposit required, bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.Fandul.com. Okay, let's talk about Chiefs Ravens. Man, I don't know. I think you said that you think the Lions loss stings. more of the two,

I'm just not sure because I watched this game and end up feeling like the Ravens played the better game. Yes. But in basically every single high impact spot just made like a devastating error.

And I don't know. I think that's a tough way to lose. I mean, it's the two turns Turnovers in the end zone. It's safe flowers. The other one was the Lamar interception to likely, which, you know, was basically thrown into triple coverage. It was the blitz pickup.

It was the penalties. I just, I think you walk away from this game through Baltimore just with a low light reel of, oh my God, we blew it. We just blew it. and man, that's, that's, that's tough because I still think that's a really, really, really good team. I still think that that, you know, this team that was fourth in yards and six in points this year. And I think they just played one of their worst offensive games at the absolute worst time. And they ended up scoring points and scoring 10 points in the NFC championship game.

And you probably come out of that with a lot of regret, a lot of talk about the game plan, the decision to only have the running backs carry the ball eight times over the course of the entire game is one that I don't know a good explanation for him, which is really, really flummoxed by, particularly against his chiefs defense that was 28 against the run. So there's certainly this element to it that's just like the chiefs and Mahomes are so incredible in building a dynasty and inevitable in that way. But if you're Baltimore, I think you walk away just feeling kind of demoralized. Yeah. I would just say that I don't think it's as devastating just because I think this team is going to be back next year. And I don't think with Detroit, that's a guarantee. I agree with your point that I think if you played this game 10 times, the game generally goes the same.

But the result changes, whereas I think if you played the Lions in 49ers game 10 times, it looks completely different from what we saw. I don't think we see Detroit get out to a 24-7 lead. But I think this was the game where we saw the problem with them kind of, I don't know how to put it, stunning Lamar's growth in Greg Roman's offense, I think would be the way to put it, which held this team back from getting to these stages earlier in his career. And I think like that lack of experience really showed in this game, not just for him, but for the whole team.

Like, it felt like the chiefs were the teams. team that you just knew they weren't going to make a mistake and give the game away. And with the Ravens, it felt like every five plays, there was another play where they were just making the dumbest, most avoidable mistake possible. And the Zayflower thing, like, stretching out for the goal line in that situation is such like a coaching point and such like a veteran thing. I thought it just, it was the perfect way to illustrate what their problem was today. It wasn't like a play calling thing to me.

It wasn't a talent thing even. I think it was just execution and not making the mistakes. Like this was a really good illustration of not losing football games. There's that like famous Trent Dilford line when he was on ESPN and he was like, you can't win games if you don't lose them first and like a lot of people make fun of it. But like this game was that. Like this made Dilfer look smart for saying that because that's exactly what happened. The Ravens lost this game through and through.

They outgained them by like 250 to 90 in the second half. They moved the ball at will. the only time they got stopped was their own mistakes for the most part, whether, like you said, it was past protection, whether it was Lamar making mistakes with his reads or whether it was just the wide receivers just... The wide receivers played a terrible game. And I thought that's another point is that for me,

this was Lamar's first proper playoff run where he had like the tools to actually win the Super Bowl. He wasn't throwing to Seth Roberts on third down, for instance. But at the same time, this, for the first time, this receiving core Seth Roberts and the Roberts family. Yeah, sorry for the stray. At the same time, this receiving court

that we've kind of like celebrated the Ravens for finally putting weapons around him, like included a washed Odell Beckham who made no impact in this game. Rashad Bateman who has made no impact. He showed up on that one drive in the second half. It was like, oh yeah. Odell's here.

Hello. He caught the fourth down pass. Yeah. And then Dave Flowers, he's a very good player, but obviously still a rookie and obviously made some mistakes and even cut his hand on the bench. And I don't think he played. And was just, he was just so, so emotional.

Like, he was worked up. I mean, he, you know, he was at an 11 this entire game, right? Because the taunting play. Right. Yeah. Is an example of someone's just adrenaline and competitive instincts and emotion getting the better of him. And taunting's dumb, but like the rules are the rules.

And you know you can't do that. But he lost his mind for a second. And then even, like, if you have a coaching point of you cannot extend the ball in that situation, that's when you forget stuff like that. And then you're so worked up about it that you go to the sideline and you smash your hand on the bench. And, you know, I felt so, it was so sad seeing him after the game, just clearly like putting the towel over his head and feeling devastated.

But it did seem like that inexperience might have had something to do. with why the boiling point was just why they were sort of at that that simmer the entire time. And it's, of course, more pronounced when you're seeing the chiefs when it's just, when you're playing the chiefs, when, who never flinch and get ahead of themselves in those ways. So I agree with you that like the wasted time and the past, you sort of wish that they had had those experiences and maybe some of this stuff would have gone differently. I do. What do you think about the run game stuff?

Do you think it was just the game script? I find it just really flummoxing that the run game was so absent. I think it was the game script. It was very disjoining in the first half. Like they couldn't get in a rhythm at all. There was three and outs. There was like five in outs. I don't even know if that's a term.

There were, uh, and the cheese were really selling out to stop the run. like they were playing on it wasn't cover zero like traditional cover zero but they were cover zero looks and I from watching like because they wanted them to not run the ball though yeah but I just don't think they had the looks and when they did try to run the ball at times there there wasn't a lot of space but I don't know I do I do think like they had to do something different I don't know if it was just like call more runs but I think they had to figure out a way to replicate the run game if they were afraid that they couldn't run into those fronts and I thought that's what Casey did really good early on

with like the screen pass is getting the ball out to the perimeter making them tackle and they kind of replaced their run game because they were like oh we're not going to be able to run against the Ravens like they have the advantage in the front seven and I thought they found a way around that whereas Todd Monkin didn't and I think that was more of a problem than him just not calling enough runs

which I do think was situational I don't think it was a great game for Monken you know when Gus Edwards was gaining yards when they handed off the football and certainly some of it was situational. And certainly there are other ways to get around that

when they're stacking the box than, you know, handing off and asking him to go downhill and run into a wall. Again, we're talking about the Ravens running backs finishing a game with eight carries for 27 yards. It's against a team that in the regular season, they were 28 against a run.

Last week, the bills ran for 182 yards on them. Also, you're the Baltimore Ravens. Like, you got to do it a little. I just, I, it, to me, conceded something that I'm sure spags went in there going, this is a win-win. If, okay, we're not very good against the run, so we're going to sell out to stop it. And if they run it, we're going to have better numbers and hopefully be well equipped to do that. But if they just abandon that, then we're more equipped.

comfortable playing that that game anyway, which is more about their secondary being a strength of their defense than it is about, you know, I don't want to accidentally sound like I'm saying, oh, if you got Lamar into pure passing situations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I think they're much happier playing, playing defense on those terms. So I just felt like he conceded a part of the game plan that played into how Kansas City wanted that game to go. But it was very, you know, just the, it was a sort of funky start to the game in terms of the script.

So I think that got them out of it too. Yeah, I think those things are like kind of interconnected. The fact that they were never able to find, even if it wasn't the run game, but a way to get four yards on first down consistently. Right. Is what kind of like, it was like quicksand almost and they just kept sinking and sinking. And I think that also speaks to an experience. we usually talk about that in terms of players. It didn't affect Mike McDonald

like being on the stage for the first time, obviously, because I thought he coached the hell of a game. Even like the first two drives, I know people are saying, oh, look how well he adjusted. That was not adjustments. They were shutting down their offense from the first drive. Mahomes was just insane for those first two drives and made that look easier than it was.

But I think Todd Monkin's inexperience, calling the offense at this level in the NFL, like he's done it at college that you won a national championship or two in a row with Georgia. but I thought him, like you said, kind of conceding something without making the chiefs earn it was not a red flag, but it was like a thing where you're like,

oh, that's something to track going forward. Like how is he going to react like this in the playoffs? And like the one thing with him is like mid-season, I would say I went to a practice. I asked him about like how things change being a first year coordinator versus like being there for a while. And he did say like,

we're all learning like even me. I'm learning how to do this. And I think next year we're going to be a lot different than we were this year. And I think this is one of those learning experiences that it's going to make this team better in the long run. That's why I don't think in the moment, I think this is going to be a hard one to get over. But I think five years from now, we're not going to be looking back at this and being like, that was the Ravens chance and they really blew it. I think they're going to get more chances.

Whereas with the Lions, for instance, I think in five years there's a very good chance for like, man, you remember that one year when the Lions almost made the Super Bowl and blew it? And that's the difference. Yeah, no, I definitely hear you on that. And it'll be really interesting to see how he, if they are in a similar situation, how they evolve. And if they're ever in a similar situation, how Monkin would call the offense in that way. Because I did think there was a little bit, or at least it made me wonder if there was a little bit of like,

okay, there's been this whole, whole big story of the season with this team about the transition from Greg Roman to Todd Monken and all the things that it's done for, Lamar, all the things that it's done for this offense. And we talk a lot about the development of the passing game. And it's been great to watch. And it's done great things for them. And it's been really effective. But sometimes, like, it's very hard to be in a hugely stressful situation and get away from the things that have made you that are sort of your bread and butter. Right.

I even felt, I even wondered if with Lamar. So the two most, like, unbelievable plays that he made were plays where he scrambled and then threw. Now, in one of those situations, he caught the ball. But it plays that he extended with his legs and then ended up throwing the ball. And that's been such a hallmark of their success in development this year is that he's been buying time, but he's been throwing on the move and scrambling to throw, and it's been really effective. And it's helped surpassing him a lot.

And now he ran eight times for 54 yards in this game. So it's not to say that he didn't do a lot of work on the ground himself. I did think just given how much man coverage they were playing, how often they were blitzing, which often meant that there wasn't a spy on him, he probably even passed up some more opportunities to just tuck it and go? 100%. Yeah, like watching from the field,

there was, he should have scrambled more. I totally, I think you, by the way, we should have said Stephen is in Baltimore right now. I think that that's like the point. When you're watching their offense, like a replay of this game, I think that's the best point that you could possibly make

is that they, Lamar should have scrambled more. And when he started scrambling, like, when his clock, his internal, clock to scramble got sped up in the second half. We saw them start to move the ball. And I totally agree with you. Like, the problem wasn't so much that Lamar was confused at what he was seen. It was like no one was open downfield.

Spag's like, this was one of the more impressive performance. Most defensive coordinators live up to the hype in this one. They had everything covered like almost all, like every play. It was insane how well they covered this passing game up. And I thought in the first half he was really trying to be like, remain that passer, like you said, and he was trying to... I'm not saying he was, like, buying into the hype of the season and the narrative around him, but I do think that was a change. Like, it got them here in a lot of ways.

It's very hard to just do away with that. But I wonder if there's a little bit of that for Lamar and for Monkin, too, where some of it is, like, you don't buy into the hype, but, like, you buy into the identity and you buy into sort of like what makes you you. but then sometimes the situation does change. And obviously, sometimes it's bad when teams get away from their bread and butter, get away from their fundamentals. But like,

this is still Lamar Jackson, we're talking about. This is still a team that fundamentally, the thing that they're built to have a successful running game, the thing that was exciting and is exciting about the Monken offense is when you emphasize the passing game, then you have everything. Because if you have Lamar,

we're going to have an advantage in the running game. So just an interesting dynamic that maybe affected both the coordinator and and Lamar when he chose to run. Let's talk about Kansas City's offense. I found myself wondering a lot watching this game if I really felt like this meant that they'd found something, like found an identity and found something that works because fully hand up, I am very surprised. this team is in the Super Bowl. By the time they were in the

the Bills game, that's when it started to feel like, oh my gosh, here they come again. But during the season, I did not think that this offense was good enough to get here. And now, over the course of

the playoffs so far for them, first of all, Travis Kelsey's come a lot. He had 11 catches on 11 targets for 160 yards and a touchdown. Today he said three touchdowns in the postseason he's averaging, close to 100 yards per game, and had some good one-on-one battles with Kyle Hamilton in a matchup that I thought could have really swung things for Baltimore, but did not.

And then they have just basically eliminated everyone who's not Travis Kelsey Rishi Reyes and Isaiah Pracheko from this offense. MVS got to ice the game, which I guess was nice. But it's just those three and then Mahomes scrambling. And I guess it kind of works. But then also they got completely shut down in the second half of this game. So my head is spinning. Can you help me make sense of this?

Where are you on the Chiefs offense? No, I agree with you. like, I don't, it's, it's, it's all their stars at this point. Like, they are running on star power fumes at this point on offense. I don't know what this offense looks like if you replace Mahomes with even like a relatively good quarter of, if you replace them with Jared Dolf, I don't know how much they score a game. I think they score 13 points. His offense is not good right now.

And I don't think it was that good on the first two drives. And that's like the only production they had all game. In the second half, they average three yards per play. Yeah. This wasn't a game where they were just in run-it-out mode. They were up by like seven and ten points for a majority. The Ravens were very much in the game for the whole second half, and the Chiefs could still only muster three yards per play.

And they had, what, like four opportunities on offense to put this game away with a drive and went like three and out or had two series and then punt it every time. There's problems. I don't know if the 49ers are the team that's going to be able to exploit these problems because their pass rush isn't what it used to be. their run defense is exploitable at the middle, and the chiefs have Isaiah Pacheco, who's just a madman,

like, just a barbarian when he runs. And I think that's, like, the worst possible matchup for this team. But, like, in a vacuum, in the offseason, they need to fix this offense. I don't care if they win the Super Bowl.

Like, this needs to be overhauled. If they win the Super Bowl, this was an aberration. Like, you should not count this as, like, something actionable. If they win the Super Bowl, they might have a little bit extra to replace. Just because are we sure, if they win the Super Bowl,

are we sure Kilotrav is sticking around for next year? I'm not sure that's a given. One thing I will say about Kelsey, he did have a very good game. The Ravens did not treat him like he was any different from any of those other receivers. Yeah. It wasn't always Kyle Hamilton guarding him one-on-one.

Like sometimes it was Arthur Mallet or Brandon Stevens, and they were fine with him on third down and one-on-one coverage. So I think, like, Kelsey's production suggests he's back, but I think, like, his degree of difficulty is no longer what it once was in terms of, like, coverages that he's seen in double teams, at least for this game. I don't know what the 49ers are going to do, but I don't think Kelsey commands the double team like he did last year

in the years before that, which has made Patrick Mahomes as scrambling so much more important. Because now teams do have that free defender in the field that they're not using to double him. And in this game, that was like the most impressive thing to watch live was, it was like Mahomes was seeking out where that extra guy was, that 11th man, so to speak, on every play. And if, like, that guy was deep and responsible for past coverage, he would just take off immediately.

Like, there was no, like, what we were talking about with Lamar, it was just instant. Like, I run, I scramble. And he scrambled a lot in this game. And it was every time they played some sort of too high. If they played single high, then there was a man in the middle of the field and you couldn't do it. But that was really impressive.

And I think, like, you learn to calibrate that thing, that whatever, that thought process in your head through these games, like these playoff games, these big stages, I really think expose the flaws in teams and players. And I think Patrick Mahomes has been through these wars and he's had bad showings on these stages. And he always gets better. And I don't think if Mahomes has those early experiences, like the Buck Super Bowl, for instance, the Bengals AFC championship game.

I don't think he's the player that he is right now. And I think this is like improvement based on past failures. And today the numbers weren't there. The offense didn't move the ball well. But they scored three. Any other teams with another quarterback scores three points today, maybe. I think you can make the argument. This is one of the best games that he's played this year.

And again, like the numbers are not flashy, but it was his best game by CPO. which like think about what that means. The guys are covered, right? Like all of that is factoring in all of the stuff that influences are you likely to complete a pass or not. And these were some of these passes were passes that a lot of quarterbacks shouldn't even be throwing. But he's making it happen.

It's really good on third down. Just so calibrated, as you said, on those scrambles. He's on another level. I mean, they kind of remind me of the, gosh, years are really hard for me. The 2018 Patriots, I guess it was, who kind of stunk for a lot of the season. Yeah, most of the year. But had a good defense. And then towards the end, they just found, and for them it was the run game, but they just found what worked.

and sometimes that's enough when you have an automaton like, you know, otherworldly guy playing quarterback and you have a good coach and you have a defensive coordinator who's like a life ruiner for opposing quarterbacks. Sometimes it's more than enough. Sometimes you end up thinking that Jared Gauth is going to shit his pants. And it happens. It's happened before. maybe it can happen again.

We're going to have a lot of time to preview the Super Bowl, obviously, over the next couple of weeks. But one thing that's interesting about this to me is that I think the Holmes might end up being an underdog for the third game in a row for this. I don't know. Is there a line out? There might be. Yep, minus one.

That's wild. The 49ers are favored by one point. I don't know. I don't know. Man, I just, I'll be so curious to see if that moves. It's going to move. But who's taking... If you're a KC fan, you want Mahomes to be the underdog, right?

Totally, of course. Like, I... If you're not, if you don't have a horse in's race, who isn't taking Mahomes as an underdog? I don't care if it's one point. Who's not being like, I'm going to bet that Patrick Mahomes doesn't lose the game. This guy is going to his four Super Bowl and five. years. Like it's, it's, man.

If I, all I know is if I had some bonus bets to throw around on Fandool, sports book, I might consider taking that point. I would take it. I would take the point. It's an, it's a, I was trying to make an extra point taking joke, but I just can't come up with it. Um, it's late at night. Don't give them credit. No. What do you, so if I ask you for an, a way too early Super Bowl prediction that you are not held to, you're more than welcome. You'll be free of charge if you rethink this and think better of it, that's fine. But before that happens, do you want to throw out a really early Super Bowl prediction? Yeah, I think the cheeser going to win.

They have the best quarterback in the world. They have the best player on the field. I think they have a defensive coordinator that I trust more. I trust Spags over Steve Wilkes 100% of the time. And then I think for the first time all year, Shanahan will be going up against a coach who is just as good as it. so that won't be an advantage. And I think that was the difference in the Chiefs win today was that Andy Reid and Mike McDonald kind of canceled each other out.

Right. Because I do think, like I said the Ravens defense dominated, but I do think the initial plan was very smart, and that's why they scored so early. And then Monkin versus Spags was a mismatch. In this game, I think Reed versus Wilkes will be a mismatch. And I think Spaggs versus Shanahan in that offense will be a stalemate.

That's why I would give it to Kansas City. I have to think about this more. But early feel, Kansas City, by more than one point. Yeah, I'm in the same place. I mean, look, sometimes weird stuff happens, right? Like, Eli Manning and Nick Foles were the ones to beat Brady and Super Bowls,

so one never knows. But this season, I started the season, feeling like it was silly to pick any team, but the Chiefs to win the Super Bowl. spent a lot of the middle of the season coming as far off of that take as I could possibly muster and I guess I have some thinking to do because I feel like I'm back in the same place.

We're so dumb. I did the same thing too. Like I'm sure you probably wrote the same blurb I did when we picked our Super Bowl pick in August. We were probably like, yeah, it's default the cheese. I'm never going to pick again. I'm not an idiot. I'm going to keep doing this.

And then two months later, we were the idiots that we were making fun of and were like, the chiefs aren't going to win. they don't have a receiver. He's throwing a Skymore on third down. They're not going to win. You're throwing to MVS on key downs to like game winning plays. And then now I sat here and I watched him throw to MVS on a Super Bowl.

But other than on that play, they are not doing it. They're just like, we're done with you. We have. We have two decoys on the field at all times. No, I know, I know, I know. I'm so glad that they're doing it this way. I think it may like, The problem was when they were not doing this, right?

Like, the problem was when they were throwing to Mikul Hardman in critical situations. And if that means that we're going to make the whole plane out of Pajekko, Mahomes, Scambles, Kelsey and Rishi Rice, I think that is just fine. And it does seem like that's the direction they're going in. And also, they have a defense that means they don't have to score. 35 points to win the game. They're going up against some pretty incredible playmakers on offense on the other side in the Super Bowl.

So I don't know if I think that 17 is going to get it done. But the number is not as high as it has been in years past. And I guess to make sense of it all, like the story of this Chiefs team really has been spags in the defense all along. And this game shows that that's that. is still who they are. And I don't know why we should expect anything different in the Super Bowl. It's obviously not to discount the greatness of Mahomes and just how steady he is and how he's

really owned that spot. But it is interesting to watch this team with a really, really, really good defense and what Spags does with them. And that's how they won this game. it's easier to appreciate Patrick Mahomes for like the things outside of the flashy plays which I think people have been reluctant to do since last year

but at this point you just can't do it he just makes the smart plays it's like this isn't about the no look passes the sidearm passes the crazy throws on the run like the reason they're here is because he doesn't need any of that to be a good quarterback the fact that he does it is just like cherry on top a very big cherry

a very delicious cherry, but it is a cherry on top. Because the base, the foundation of his quarterback skills is so sound that I really don't think he needs to play in that way. And like, if you put him in a situation where you're like, you be a game manager, there's that word again. I think he was a game manager today. He didn't make mistakes. He didn't put the ball in arms way.

And the Ravens gave him a lot of chances to do that. And that's what's so impressive about this performance is mitigating problems while keeping his offense viable, it was very impressive. All right. Again, we'll get to talk about this so much more. So maybe we'll call it a night there, but I have to ask you one more question before we go, which is Stephen, did you see Taylor? I did not. I looked.

Me and High Fitz were, Hyfitts is here. He went to the game too. I'm glad he looked all over the press box. I would not find her. If I could have been a fly on the wall for you and Danny Hyphitz going in search of Taylor Swift, that would have made me very happy. All right. I found T. Payne. T. Payne was here.

Did T-Pain? Was T-Pain amazing? I didn't watch. I went to the bathroom. I'm sorry, T-Pain. I'm sure he was. I heard good life in the background. It sounded amazing. I've been to three Ravens games as here, and the halftime performances of our big boy from Outcast,

Jimmy Eat World last week, and then T-Pain. Quite the, quite the showing. Which one? How many did you actually see? I did not watch Jimmy Eat World. I'm going to be honest with you. I've heard the middle before. I don't need to hear it again.

I hate to say this. This brings me no joy. And in fact, a lot of sadness, but like, big boys seen better days. Yeah, yeah,

it was rough. It was rough. It doesn't work when Andre 3K is not there. It doesn't work. Well, and also then Andre gave that quote, like, a day later,

like, I don't want to, I'm too old. Like, I'm not in the game anymore. I can't, I can't do it. It's like,

yeah, well, maybe we all, we all, we all have our moments. All right. I think that means it's time to end the podcast. This is Ben Dole Threat.

I'm Nora Pinciotti. He's Stephen Ruiz. We will be back in the middle of the week. We'll have a sort of Super Bowl preview championship round wrap-up episode and then a lot more as we head towards the big game. On Monday, though, Ben and Sheal will have extra point taken. Thank you to Eduardo Ocampo for producing this episode. Thank you to Kiar Givins for her work on. on socials.

Thank you to Arjuna Ramgapal and Connor Evans for their additional production, supervision, and to you for listening. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino, LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Vermont, and Virginia. Call 100 Next Step or Tech's next step to 533442 in Arizona, 1,8,8. 8-88-789-9-org in Connecticut, 1-8009 with it in Indiana, 1-800-522470-470-com in Kansas, 18777-7-7-0 stop in Louisiana,

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