The Ringer NFL Show - Conference Championship Recap: The Chiefs and Eagles Return to the Super Bowl, Coaching Carousel News, and More

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

Sheil, Steven, and Diante get together to analyze and dissect both of Sunday’s NFL championship-round matchups, while debating the futures of the teams that are going home. Bills-Chiefs (3:27) Commanders-Eagles (29:56) They end the pod by shining a light on some of the big coaching news around the league (53:23). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Sheil Kapadia, Steven Ruiz, and Diante Lee Producers: Chris Sutton, Tucker Tashjian, and Mark Panik Production Supervision: Conor Nevins, Arjuna Ramgopal, and Daniel Comer Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Chris Vernon here and welcome to a new season of the NBA and the mismatch. And huge welcome as well to my new co-host, Dave Jacoby. I can't wait to link with you twice a week every Tuesday and Friday right here on the mismatch to break down everything that's happening in the league. Who's playing well, who we loved, who we loathed, trade rumors, team dysfunction. We've got you covered right here. So follow us, subscribe and hit us with those five-star ratings on Spotify or wherever you get your. your podcast. And also don't forget to follow us on social media. That's at Ringer NBA and check out the full mismatch episodes with the two handsomest podcasters in the history of podcasting right on

the Ringer NBA YouTube channel. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. Shield Capadia here with Deonté Lee and Stephen Ruiz. We got a rematch. We have a rematch of Super Bowl 57. We get, I don't know, is it a classic? Is it a classic? Chiefs Bills. Chiefs prevail. What else is new? 3229 over the Buffalo Bills and the Eagles blow out the Washington Commanders 5523. So Jalen Hertz, Patrick Mahomes, Chiefs, Eagles. Here we go again from New Orleans in a couple weeks here. Deontay, how are we feeling about this Super Bowl matchup before we dig into these games that we saw today? You know, it's funny, man, like as a lifelong Eagles fan, you know, my significant other was asking me, you know, why am I not happy?

And I was like, you know, it's great for the Eagles to make the Super Bowl again. But A, I'm going on work. So it's not like I can really enjoy this the way that I like to. And by enjoy this, I mean, sitting on the corner of the couch talking to absolutely nobody for three and a half hours while the game is going on. And number two, I've already seen this. I've seen this movie before. So I'm not feeling great about the matchup in a couple weeks. But I will say coming out of this weekend, we got all the drama.

I think we were looking for from the Bill's Chiefs game. And I think that with the Eagles now, because of their off. offensive performance. We've now kind of opened the door to have some interesting questions about what this matchup might actually look like if both these teams are playing at their best, which is how they looked on offense on both the AFC and NFC title game. Ruiz, first impressions? I'm excited. I'm excited because we got this offensive machine on one side in Philadelphia where it's almost two talents to fail. I think today we saw the best version of it that

we've seen all season long. It was kind of the version that you expected to see when they hired Kellyn Moore. But now that we have this offense kind of humming along. And then you have Steve Spagnolo, like one of the greatest defensive game planners in the history of the NFL playoffs. And he gets two weeks to prepare for it. Like, to me, that side of the ball is so fascinating to me.

And then on the other side of the ball, you have Vic Fangio going up against the greatest quarterback of all time, potentially. So I know it's a boring matchup. I know people are tired of seeing the Chiefs. They're probably getting tired of seeing the Eagles in these big games. But it's probably the two best teams in the league all year long and two teams, at least record-wise,

and we've been reluctant to give these teams their flowers. but if you've been tracking by the standings all year long, we've kind of been heading towards this matchup. No doubt about it. I think the defensive coordinators really make it interesting with Spags on one side and Fangio on the other side. I will be talking so much more about that. Chiefs are one and a half point favorites,

according to Fandul right now as we look ahead to that game in two weeks. But let's get to these games from Sunday. I feel like I just need to start by saying, I'm sorry, Buffalo. I'm sorry. It's happened to you again. Buffalo, I really thought it was going to be different this year. we talked about it a few weeks ago.

I said, I feel like Lamar or Josh Allen is going to break through. And I feel like if you're a Bills fan, you're going to look at some opportunities in this game. Now, you could say that about any close game, any, you know, a lot of these games that the Bills have played against the Chiefs in recent years. But offensively, a couple opportunities in the second half. Defensively, you just really struggled throughout. Ruiz, when you look at this from a Bills perspective, and obviously giving the Chiefs the credit that they deserve for coming through every single time in this spot. Where do you look at first?

Like when you look at how the Chiefs won this game or how the Bills lost this game? I mean, if you're stepping back and looking at the big picture view, like, oh, we haven't gotten over this hump, are we ever going to get over this hump? I know it's hard. It's hard, especially after these two last games where you feel like you played them even and just kind of lost by fractions of points per drive, too. I think they lost this one. but it was 3.2 points per drive for the Chiefs and 3.2 for the bills in this one, which was similar to last year.

So, like, it hurts even more, but I don't know what you do. I think you just got to keep pushing. You just got to keep pushing. Just got to keep tinkering and adding and trying to get into a spot where you can defend these guys. I feel like they have gotten to that point.

It's just been two unlucky breaks over the last two playoffs where they haven't been able to get over the hump. But they're there. I mean, they're good enough. It's a coin flip games back-to-back years, and they just happen to lose the coin flip. Maybe next year it comes up tails or heads or whatever you call it.

Yeah, it comes down to me to like a few instances we got to talk about. And let's start with the Bill's offense here, Deontay, because fourth quarter, 2221, they try for the, I don't even know what you go. Is it just called the push sneak or whatever with Josh Allen? The officials rule it. One official rules at a first down. The other official rules it not a first down. They review it. Bill's come up short right there, turnover on downs.

Chiefs go right down the field and score a touchdown. That's one. And then Ruiz already mentions bags, man. He's just adding these calls and these games and these plays to his resume. Fourth and five, I really thought we were at least getting a tie game. And then you see if Mahomes gets the ball one more time or if it goes to overtime. And I thought the bills had a chance to win it there. It's fourth and five.

He dials up a blitz gets home. I thought Josh Allen made it an incredible. play, given the circumstances just to launch that ball downfield. Dawson Knox cannot come down with it. So I can throw you all these stats about, well, the Bills did, you know, X, Y, and Z offensively, and they played a good offensive game. And it's true, but you're also facing Patrick Mahomes. And I thought those two play specifically are the ones that Bills fans are going to be talking

about next 24 hours, 48 hours, six months, 10 years, whatever it may be. 1,000 percent. And I think maybe the worst part of it, the most painful part of it for Bills fans, is that they were the right decision in both situations, and they were good calls in both situations. I would say especially that last fourth down where they got blitzed, and Josh Allen just basically kind of had to chuck the ball up. Even in that situation, when they gave you the over-the-head view,

you saw Dawton Kincaid break wide open. Kansas City kind of busted the coverage with that deep crosser, but the pressure got home because it was so well designed. They disguised it extremely well. But I think just overall looking at this game, it kind of brought me back to what we were talking about in the preview show, right? One of the things I said was for Sean McDermott, if you're looking at this offense, this is probably the best built offense to contend with the team like Kansas City.

But that secondary should terrify him in this matchup. And that's exactly how it played out. I thought they did a good job of stuff in the run for the most part. They gave up a couple explosives where guys are just breaking tackles. But I thought they did what they needed to control the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. But what happens when you can't touch Patrick Mahomes? And that's what we got tonight. was Patrick Mahomes was just in that zone.

It was just like last year's AFC title game where you watched that opening drive. And it's like, oh, okay, we're getting that version of 15 today. Probably bad news for the team on the other side. And it never ended. And I think that Andy Reid was having not the full compliment, because I can only imagine what this offensive looked like if Rishy Rice was healthy and available,

but just having enough speed now on the field where when you're running these crossers, when you're running these pick routes, when you've got these guys in condensed splits, it takes so little for them to break them open. And I don't think the Buffalo did anything wrong from a coverage perspective. You lost her number one corner. And the guy who was a backup has been an issue for them since he's been drafted.

And they were just caught in bad situations. I thought the times they called man, it was the right thing to do to call man. They were just running pick routes. It looked very much like what that Houston game was in the regular season, where it seemed like every time Houston got into a high leverage situation and they wanted to lean on tight coverage, Kansas City had the answer. or Patrick Mahomes made something happen with his legs. I thought that this might be in the all-time list.

This might be his best scrambling performance in his playoff career. Even though you don't have as many explosive scrambles, I thought that everything he did was effective. His management of the pocket was great. This is the kind of game that makes him the greatest of all time. When you don't have the run game, you don't have a true number one receiver. Your offensive line isn't really playing that well. They're just not getting pressure on you because you're you.

And there's nothing that a defense can do to bother you. it speaks so well to who he is and how much he changes the math for defenses. And like you said, you know, at the open to this, if you're Buffalo, you're kicking yourself, not because you did anything wrong, but just because you know you were another footnote in the greatest resume of all time right now. It's getting so hard. And just to update that stat I had earlier, to correct it, the bills actually scored more points per drive than the Chiefs did in this game. The Chiefs just had 10 possessions to nine possessions. Like, that's got to be so frustrating.

And I think this is just like a kind of a freebie for Sean McDermen. in terms of like his legacy or questions about his capacity to get this team over the hump. Because I can't blame him for anything in this. And I've been kind of harsh on Sean McDermin, especially in the playoffs when he's gone up against these quarterbacks and these quarterbacks have just torched them. But I feel like Deontes right here. Like they had the good calls on. They had a good plan.

They probably had the better team and had the advantage when their defense was out there against the chief's offense. It just doesn't matter because number 15 is going to do whatever he has to take or whatever it takes. If it's third and five, he gets six yards. It's 30 and eight, he gets nine yards. If they need, if the other team scores 29 points, he scores 32 points. That's how they go 15 and two in the regular season when the whole time we're thinking,

this team stinks and they shouldn't be winning these games. Well, it's probably because of Mahomes, and he's the best at his position, and he might be the best of all time. Yeah, you look at it. I was looking at Mahomes' stats after the game, so he goes 18 for 26 for 245 yards. DeAte, you mentioned it, runs 11 times for 43 yards. those were some high leverage runs. Romo was pointing it out during the broadcast.

He's picking up first downs on scrambles. They go designed run in the red zone with Mahomes, and he runs it in the end zone there. This was a 99th percentile game in terms of drop back success rate. His highest success rate of any game in his entire career. On 73% of the times, they drop back to pass, it produced a successful play. To put that into perspective,

there's only been four quarterback games all season long. That have been better than that. And so like you talk about just the, you know, this guy who we've watched a year in and year out, well, what's he going to do to wow? So he doesn't have the downfield threats. And it's like we've talked about all season. It's efficiency, efficiency, efficiency is what they're built on. It's not the most fun version of the Chief's offense.

But he can still play that style very well. And I thought, again, I thought Reed was scheming stuff up against McDermott very well. There were times where, you know, there were some easy throws. And then there were some throws and some plays where Mahomes did Mahomes things. So for them to come out of this and they had a terrific offensive game. I mean, nine drives, four touchdowns, one field goal. And then they end the game at the end. And even with that, I'm with you guys.

I thought there were a couple moments in there. I go, the Bill's defense is not playing great, but they have given the offense a chance here. Jordan Phillips gets that sack on that second to last drive by the chiefs. I was like, I was shocked. I was sure they were scoring a touchdown there. He gets a sack, forces them to kick a field goal. Matt Milano had a big sack where he's spying Mahomes and knocks him out of field goal range there.

They forced two punts in the second half. So the Chiefs' offense statistically and everything was so efficient, but I still came up when I'm watching it live. I'm going, the bills are, it's not going to look pretty, but they're giving you some chances to still steal this game. And it was kind of interesting to see how Josh Allen kind of reacted to this moment. I think there was a little bit of a concern, especially early on that he was pressing. What was going on early in that game? That was crazy. It was like 2018, Josh Allen

came back to life. I don't know. It was like the worst moment for that to happen, but I do think he settled into the game and started it. And it was like, oh, wait, I'm one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Let me start playing like it. And I mean, I know he lost this game and this is not going to, you know, he's not going to have his legacy rewritten because of this. He finally got over the hump with Mahomes. That's what everyone's waiting for. But you just saw the talent. takeover down the stretch of the game. And like even when like Kansas City is throwing like Tampa 2 at him and this guy is throwing passes that you just don't see other quarterbacks make.

Like he's throwing to the second level with like three guys in the middle of the field waiting there. They don't even have a chance on the ball because it's just humming by their ears. Like I'm glad he didn't turn out with the football even though he put the ball in harm's way several times because we don't have to come out of this game talking about his warts as a quarterback or his weaknesses and asking questions about like his capacity to win in the playoffs. I'm very happy that happened.

He wasn't good enough to win today. He got outplayed by Patrick Bolles, but sometimes you get outplayed by the best quarterback of all time. When the guy averages 0.6 EPA per play with a 70% success rate, it's kind of hard to outplay him. I was so floored by the start of this game, but I think, like Stephen said, where we ultimately landed once he was in a groove,

I think explains a little bit of why we saw him look the way he looked early in the game. You could tell this wasn't like last year's divisional game. It was like, all right, we're just going to get the ball out your hand. quickly, play it very safe, let's just maintain possession. They clearly walked into this game, like, if we're going to get to the Super Bowl, we're going to earn it by being aggressive. We're putting the ball in your hands.

If you like a throw, take your chance. And that paid off later on in the game. They were able to get the ball downfield to Mack Hollins a couple of times. I thought that, you know, him pushing the ball downfield now opens up space for him to work the ball underneath to Khalil Shakir, who I thought had a pretty productive day today. I think the only thing they were really missing offensively was the fact that you didn't see them get those ball winning reps like they got. in the regular season when they played this team from Amari Cooper from Keon Coleman

when they were trying to take one-on-one chances against tight coverage on the outside. And I think that's okay because they built an offensive infrastructure now where when that's not there, it doesn't break the continuity of this offense. Like you said, Stephen, I mean, there's really nothing to say. This is like an A-minus game from Buffalo. The only difference you two to A-minus and A-plus is that Patrick Mahomes was Patrick Mahomes today. And he had the ball one more time than your quarterback did.

I will say, though, the thing that was interesting to me was just the, I think the insistence on going for the sneaks on fourth downs. I thought every fourth down decision they made was wise. It was a little interesting to me when it got clear in the second half, like, your guards are not moving these guys. When they're ready to anchor down and take away the space for the sneak, and Tony Romo pointed it out, which means a Kansas City pointed it out to him in the production meeting. We know he leans left every time he wants to sneak, so they're loading it up. You could tell they were anticipating it. There were no off-sides penalties from them today. So they knew exactly what that operation was and how to stop it.

Again, this speaks volumes to Spagnolo. This speaks volumes about Kansas City's defense, understanding the moment and how to rise to the occasion in these games. But at the end of the day for Buffalo, what else you're going to do? Nobody else in the NFL stops this play. It just so happened to be in the conference championship game. The one team who you can never get over the hump against, you still cannot get that winning edge the way you do against the 31 other teams.

in the NFL. But that's what this defense does. That's what this coaching staff does, especially on the defensive side, especially with Spagnolo making the game play. It's like they take away these hedges that you find, which is another reason why I'm excited about this Eagles game, because guess what? This concept, this defense against this play is going to apply to that matchup as well. And I mean, Spagnollo is such a weapon for them. And it's so easy to discount it during the regular season because you're not really locked into the game plans like week to week. You can have a game plan that's good, but you're not really like, oh, this is, I put my heart and soul into it because it's a

playoff game. If we lose this, we're going home. You get a better effort game planning wise from these guys in the playoffs. It's more focused. It's more concentrated. They have more data to work with, more film to work with. It's when you see the best of these coaches with Spagnolo, I like, I mean, Belichick is probably the best defensive mind of all time. He was a defensive coordinator with just as many impressive game plans as him. But under Belichick, it's Spacknolo. And like, I don't even think there's an argument. at this point, especially if he pulls off to Super Bowl in two weeks. I was just thinking that when Deontes describing that during the production meeting,

they probably said something, it's like, all right, that's one thing. But, like, you know, I'm sure other coordinators this season have had the same read on it, but what are you going to do about it? The guy's a monster. It's an unstoppable play. And they came up with something to make it difficult, the one where he flies over the top and fumbles. I mean, when you're making them do that on their go-to play, that's already a victory.

not only the one where you, what did you think on the one where he got stopped? I thought he got it. I didn't feel like 100% about it, but watching live, I thought that, I thought initially that he got it. It was just so hard with the replay. And like those replays are always misleading because they don't have the right angle. Like I feel like you need like a pylon cam in every situation. I don't know. Maybe we can get that somehow.

I mean, they do have chips in the ball. They can track it. But it was impossible. Listen, this is just a startup league, Ruiz. I don't think there's resources. to be able to figure out that. Give them 10, 20, 30 years. Yeah, we got to give them time.

They can't even do natural grass. Well, my favorite headline coming into the weekend was that the NFL is considering expanding their expedited replay. What conversation is there even? Does there even need to be bad here? It's 100% better. I will say like, and I will say in this pre-show, I'm glad that the game played out the way it did and it was a high-quality game

so we don't have to spend time on the officiating. This is my one critique, and I've noticed this sometimes in high-level situations from officials. They kind of took the cowards way out with that sneak where they didn't make a clear declaration before they said they were going to review. And I was like, usually when that happens, it kind of leans defense because you're not going to be able to locate the ball. And that ultimately was the issue.

I think he got it as well. But I think that the margins were so tight. If you didn't see any brown poking out ahead of the line to game, they were probably not going to give it to them unless they had already made that call. So I kind of figured that they went with the safest decision. which is we can't see the ball, it's not clear. Let's just say he didn't convert it in change possessions there. Yeah, but as for the other one, the one where he goes diving over and fumbles,

we've been talking about how the bills have set up their offense, so Josh Allen doesn't have to play Superman. It's kind of fitting that the chiefs kind of forced him to be Superman on that play, to fly through the air, and he fumbled the ball. But that's just what Spags does, man. He makes you play left-handed. And sometimes he takes away your left-hand too, and you just had to figure out another way to play.

I would give them credit for doing that. I feel like in more subtle ways, like they took away some of the RPO stuff, like the cheap easy passes on first down that we've been celebrating the bills for all season long. They didn't really have that in this game. And I thought that just made Josh Allen's degree of difficulty a little bit higher in this one.

And that was enough to make the difference. Like he didn't shut down Josh Allen, but you're never going to shut down Josh Allen. And if you have Mahomes play like he did, if you just contain him a little bit, then that's enough to get you back to the Super Bowl. Yeah, I think enough is. such a great word. And I think Spags, like, that describes the chief. The whole team, yeah.

Yeah, they kind of all know what is going to be enough. What do we need to do in this specific moment? I love that Spag's just goes for it in those moments. He doesn't turtle. Like, if he's on the fence about what he's going to do, he's going to go for it. He calls. That, that blitz he called. He fooled Romo. Like, if you go back and listen to the call, Romo's like, oh, they're coming. Oh, no, they're not coming. Oh, wait, they are. And he's like watching it with nothing else on his mind. He would have cooked Romo in that situation, too. So imagine if you're Josh Allen. Romo would have added another ugly moment to his playoff resume on that one.

We could tell from the booth commentary. I'll give Spaggs and Spag's credit there. When you're confusing the broadcaster, a former quarterback was watching that at the time. What's the quarterback? How's the quarterback supposed to figure that out? I mean, again, I was still amazed that he even got that ball downfield. I was just standing up with like my jaw dropped. I'm like, wait a minute.

Is he going to complete that pass? Oh, so close. enough is, again, enough is the key word, Bill's 87th percentile game in terms of EPA per drive to their offense. I'm not even going to repeat the numbers I gave on the preview pod from what they did last year.

Phil's fans were like, wait, what? We didn't realize that our offense was that efficient last year. I would have rather gotten a stinker in this game. I would rather have gotten blown out. This is so much worse, especially two weeks in a row. But back to the Spags thing,

we need assistant coaches in the Hall of Fame because Spags needs to be a Hall of Famer. I'm sorry. If we're making Eli Manning a Hall of Fame that we probably are, then Steve Bagnolo deserves to be in the Hall of Fame because he got Eli that first Super Bowl ring. I agree. Is that a thing that they can't be in the Hall of Fame?

Or they just haven't been? It's just not precedent. I mean, I'm sure there's no rule against it. He's absolutely has to be with the, I mean, the resume he's put together. If you go by the old, can you tell the story of the NFL of the last 20 years without this guy? The answer is a resounding no. Absolutely not. The key moments with some of these huge Super Bowl victories are.

Before we move on, obviously, Chiefs incredible Reed, Mahomes, Juju Smith-Schuster out here making plays, Spags, Chris Jones, I mean, you name it. Let's close the book on the bills. Like, I'm with you guys. It's not like, oh, you got to, you know, it's not a huge overhaul or anything. But I do look at the roster and I'm like, you got the offensive line.

You got the back. You got the quarterback. Elsewhere, I do think there's plenty of room to upgrade the talent. I think you're right about the secondary. I think certainly the past catchers were enough, but it wouldn't help to upgrade that unit either. Amari Cooper didn't really give them. I think what they were hoping he would give them in this spot. So that's where my eyes go.

It's going to be another long off season where they try to figure it out once again. And I think they've tried to address the secondary in the past, maybe haven't necessarily hit. But I think that's a spot where you just have to be better there as you continue to knock on the door, Deontes there. Any other area of the roster missing as you look at what the bills need to do here? or is it just keep trying in one of these years? We think, maybe not,

but we think you will break through. I mean, there's really not much left to gain. You have an MVP-level quarterback. You have a good enough offensive line. You've got a great running infrastructure. That James Coat touchdown, by the way. I want to give that a moment. That was a sick play.

If they win this game, oh my goodness, what an effort. Sorry, go ahead. But no, I mean, they have, the infrastructure is so strong. You know your GM is staying. He's done a pretty good job of building this roster. You've got the quarterback.

you got the offense. Like you said, I do think that they could stand to add a true bona fide ball winning X receiver. Maybe Keon Coleman develops into that, right? I do want to keep the door open to that. I don't want to act like because a rookie did not show up and become A.J. Green right out the gate that that that means that they have a problem that they need to address. I just think that it's pretty clear that they could use that within this offense. But everything really is going to be focused on the defensive secondary, in my opinion. The linebackers look good when they were healthy. Obviously, you're missing something, you're still missing that true juice in terms of pass rush off the edge. But they've taken so many swings.

I can't imagine that they invest more money in that position group right now, at least. I would say go get safeties because there's really no excuse for the loss of Taylor Rapp to be so debilitating to your secondary. No disrespect to Taylor Rapp, but that's not, if that's your best guy on the back end outside of Christian Binford, then you're probably in trouble with how your roster is built. So I would say address safety. Hopefully you can figure something out around Benfrey, get him another corner. And, you know, when you have Terran Johnson, I think that everything is there.

The only issue is maybe the best thing you can do is get home field advantage. So that way, you don't have to worry about being an head or a head because it definitely seemed like there was an emotional weight. We talked about it with Josh Allen kind of panicking to start this game. I just think that's turning into one of those places, just like the United Center back in the 90s with the Bulls, just like, you know, American Airlines Arena with Miami when LeBron was air. I think there's just an air of that place where you walk in the building in these high-leverage situations and you just feel all the emotional weight that comes up playing up against a team like

that. But they're close. They're close. They prove that they're right there by beating Baltimore and being within a possession in this game. I don't know how much there is to change. You just hope to continue to tinker in, keep taking swings until eventually you get over the hump. Yeah, like the cults never really had to change when they were playing this role for the Patriots in the early 2000s. They just kept knocking on the door and eventually they broke through and like it happens. I think it's going to happen

with this team. Obviously they need more talent. They need more talent on defense. I mean, it doesn't matter if it's in the past rush. I do think they, like Deontes said, they need more juice in the past rush. I think a Sean McDermott defense is at its best when that front four is getting pressure on its own. He doesn't have to blitz. And when they

can play, they can just play zone and they don't have to play man as much. I know we've been talking about the need to play a little bit more man, play a little bit stickier in coverage. They don't necessarily have the guys to do that, but a pass rush would make up for that. I don't know. If that's, if I was building a team, that's where I would start because I think it's easier to find a rush than it is to find like three cover corners that you trust in man coverage. And then I think on like another layer to it is the defense is kind of siloed right now. Like on early downs, you know you're getting some type of zone coverage on late downs. They're going to play man

coverage if they feel confident in doing so. But it's kind of, easy to predict. It's kind of easy to game plan for. And I think you saw that with the chiefs. They were so prepared to beat man coverage in high-leverage situations with those pick plays. Not that Andy Reid ever has a problem beating man coverage in those situations. But I do think that's one area they can address. But it's picking nits with his team. It's such a good team. It's a Super Bowl ready team. They just have to get over this hump. I think eventually it happens. I'm with you. Pass rush. Not that I'm not going to be the dumb person. Well, the way to beat Patrick. No, I'm not stupid like that. I've watched enough. But that is

something that could potentially help you if you have a match. I mean, they've tried. They paid that big contract to Von Miller. They've used so many draft picks up front. And everyone's been kind of like, okay, it's not like they're drafting bust left. They've been useful players, but they don't have that guy who you're circling, you know, on a Monday or Tuesday being like, we need a plan for this guy or he's going to wreck the game. That's not, I'm not saying that's easy to find.

They've tried to find that, but keep taking swings at those types of players that certainly could help them. The thing that does complicate it is that it's not like the, the, the, the, Manning Colts where all we have is New England to worry about. Like Baltimore is that like third variable that kind of like makes it tough because you have to build the beat the chiefs. But guess what? You have to also stop Lamar Jackson and Derek Kennedy who are unique challenges, totally different from what Patrick Mahomes brings to the table.

So it's kind of tough to be caught in between those two matchups. Just take the best players. Yeah, it's much more. That's why I brought up the Steelers because it's like those, it's more like the late odds version of the Patriots dynasty where it's like, okay, Baltimore exists, Pittsburgh exists, you know, Indianapolis is still around. You have to be very mindful about how you build your team because if you lean your identity too far in one direction, it will leave you vulnerable against another.

It's going to be so interesting to me to see where they feel like they can tip the scale in their favor because there's not a lot you can do. And you know, to Stephen's point, you're not going to change your identity here because what you've been doing has been working. So it's going to be tough. It's about finding the right fit, right? Like if a guy like Jesse Bates who are available, you could go get to Jesse Bates and say, hey, that might not, maybe that's not exactly enough to beat the Mahomes, but that's going to tilt the scale in our favor just enough to maybe where Josh Allen's best plays will get us over the hump against Patrick Mahomes. And I think that that's kind of the place they're in, which sometimes is the worst, right? Like, as a college football fan, you hear it all the time. It's easy to go from three and seven, you know, from three and nine to nine and three. It's the hardest thing in the world to turn the 10 and 2 and 11 and 1 from there. And that's kind of where they're stuck at right now.

Yeah. All right. Buffalo. Hang in there. Hang in there, Buffalo. And cheese fans, you are back again. We will be talking about you plenty in the weeks ahead. All right. Let's take a break. We come back. We move over to the NFC. The Ringer NFL show is brought to you by Fandul. Every pass, every play, every prop. It's Super Bowl 59. And it's all happening on Fandul. Bet on America's number one game with America's number one sports book. Any way you want, I'm talking spreads. live bets, over-unders, player props, special props, and so much more. Plus, to make the Super Bowl even sweeter, new customers can score $200 when you make your first bet. Just place a $5 bet, and if you win, you'll get $200 in bonus bets.

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Fandul.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or visit RG-HELP.com. All right. We are back on the Ringer NFL show. Eagles 55. commanders 23, Eagle score eight touchdowns

the most by any team in a playoff game in the last 25 years. The offensive showing that I think Eagles fans were wondering all season does this version of the Eagles actually exist. It showed up today, and they are back in the Super Bowl for the second time in three years

with the rematch. Deonté, you look at this football game and what the Eagles did against Jane and Daniels and Washington, what's it out to you? It's funny, man. We have had so many conversations about what's going on with this passing game.

Is it the design? Is it the quarterback? Is A.J. Brown more banged up than we're letting on. What's going on with X, Y, or Z? And I felt like today might have been, and I don't think this is the first time, because you can see little glimmers of it in tape, and sometimes they execute and sometimes they don't.

I feel like this is the first time Kellen Moore came to the table and said, hey, Nick, when you see defenses like this, what did you guys do over the last three years to give them problems. And it just felt like he took all those concepts and just laid it all out in this game. You saw the slide RPO's. That was a big part of their run game

at different points of times when they go spread to run. I love seeing that because it gave them relief when Washington was selling out to try to stop the run. They had the explosive plays outside the numbers. Obviously, you get the big one over Marshall-Ladamore to AJ Brown early in the game.

You could kind of feel the weight coming off of this passing game. Once they completed that pass, they were able to get those corners, corner routes, which has been a hallmark of this offense over the last few years. There are just so many things that you can go and watch and be like, oh, that's from 2022. They did that in 2022. They did that in 2022.

And then you add in the fact that Kellyn Moore, the thing, the most valuable thing that Kellyn Moore has done is give them an opportunity to be explosive in the run game when defenses load the box. That's what that first big play was to Sequin, where you're able to give jet motions, so you got guys flying in one direction, you go pin and pull. So now he and Jeff Stoutland kind of have this. synergy and setting up the personnel that Killamore likes to run out of with the run designs that work for Jeff Stoutland.

I think that when that's happening, that's great. But everything else in this offense at work today was so reminiscent of years prior. And that's what I think they have to be. And I think that's a big reason why Dehlin Hertz looks so effective as a dropback passer was because they really paired things down and just got back to basically play a mismatch ball. We're going to put Devonte Smith over the middle of the field. We're going to put Dallas Goddard out in the flat. We're going to send AJ Brown vertically and good luck figuring out how you want to defend any one of these three guys.

Even the Dallas Goddard screens. That's something that we really haven't seen this year. That hasn't been as big a piece of the offense. When it was Brian Johnson and Shane Steichen in years past, that was their screened guy because he's a mismatch problem for dbs and a yak threat for how big he is. I love to see all the layers that they kind of added in. It almost looked like they were the chiefs that got the 23-day break going into the playoffs or they were able to reassess and get back to some of the things that have worked for them over the years. It's really encouraging, not just for Jalen Hertz,

but I think that the bigger picture is when a team plays like Washington does and they're loading up the line of scrimmage and trying to take away the run game, you can just get back to easy things that punish defenses, and that's what it's going to have to be if they're going to have any chance to get over the hump here and win the Super Bowl in a couple of weeks. Yeah, I like the, you use the word layers. Like, that's what I felt like this was the most layered performance for the Philadelphia Eagles offense that we've seen all.

along and I felt like the left side of the offense of line, kind of being banged up almost helped that because you saw them kind of find different levers to pool on early downs instead of just like, let's just call inside zone and we have, you know, the best interior line and we're just going to push them off the ball and get eight yards per pop. That didn't happen in this game. Like you saw like the toss of the outside runs.

You saw the jet sweeps to Devante Smith. I think there were a couple of those. There was like tight end handoffs. There was the screens to Goddard. There were a lot of the concepts that like, you said, you saw in 2022. It seemed like they like, especially against the past game, it was like, let's take our cover one game plan and our Tampa 2 game plan, smash those

together, and let's just call those plays over and over and over again. It was the most confident you saw Jayland Hertz in months, the most decisive you've seen him. I know he took a couple of sacks and a couple of times where you could have checked the ball down, but for the most part, this was the most decisive he's been since 2022. When I thought he was a better quarterback than he was last year or this year, without a doubt, which is kind of counterintuitive. You would think a quarterback gets better as he develops.

This is the first time he's looked like 2022, Jalen Hertz, in a long time. And we don't know because we've seen this offense kind of break out against the Steelers. There's probably other team against the Bengals, I think, was another one. And then a week later, they look like the same old Eagles offense from earlier in the year. So I don't know what that's going to look like in two weeks time, but it's the best possible sign going into this matchup. It finally looks like the offense you want it with Kellyn Moore, joining the staff and kind of adding different elements to the offense.

Even when they have a good game, they've got to get a little weird. This is from Jeff McLean of the Inquirer. Eagles quarterback Jalen Hertz on head coach Nick Siriani, quote, I think he finally let me out of my straight jacket, end quote. As asked later to clarify, Hertz passed, but seemed he was referencing offensive constraints on him since the by week. But I'm with you. You know, it's actually fitting because they're going into a rematch.

I guess the team they played in the Super Bowl in 2020. and this offense looked like how the, you know, you watch that Super Bowl against the Chiefs. And you thought, all right, they can build on this. This is, you know, Jalen Hurst has this in him. He doesn't have to carry the entire offense, but he absolutely can be an efficient quarterback. You add that with the run game with the offensive line. This should be a top five offense. It wasn't a top five offense this year.

You look at DVOA or whatever you want to look at. It was 11th, 12, 13th. And this game, he goes 20 for 28 for 246 yards. accounts for four touchdowns when you take the rushing into it. Like Ruiz said, takes two sacks. No turnovers, hasn't turned the football over in the playoffs. This was a 95th percentile game for a quarterback this season based on EPA per pass play.

And for their offense, this is their best offensive performance since Super Bowl 52 against the Patriots. So it has been a weird team. Like, I was ready. If they won this game, I had my takes ready. Like, this is just a bizarro team. This is a throwback team. that's going to run the football and their offensive lines going to dominate and they're going to

win with defense. And, you know, it's kind of like one of those old great college teams from like, you know, 15, 20 years ago. We're like, I'm not sure about the passing game, but it might not actually matter. But then in this game, I mean, the way that game starts was so telling. The commanders, 18 play drive where they take like half the quarter off the clock, but I don't think they had a gain over seven yards. Everything felt tough, but they're converting fourth downs, third downs. Eagles get the ball. First play, Sequin Barkley, 60-yard touchdown. All right, commanders, you're back on the field. Like that that kind of spoke to a little bit of the mismatch Deontay that there was just from like a talent perspective, the Jimmy's and Joe's perspective in this matchup.

1,000 percent. I thought that that was evident, you know, from that first drive. I mean, really in the first half, right? Because Philadelphia was moving the ball without problem. It was just at the time of possessions and the number of plays were all out of whack because Philadelphia was hitting big plays and then obviously the turnover. origin became a factor after that opening drive for Washington. And I think that we probably would have been having this conversation about Washington a week ago of Jared Gough doesn't wet the bed with all the interceptions, right? Because it looked worse last week for Washington's front up against Detroit's

offensive line who was healthy and whole. And they're just a different kind of beast in terms of under center run game against the Washington defense that probably is a little bit better built to deal with an offense like Philadelphia is where you get more spread out, more zone read, or they can kind to bring guys from different angles and use stunts and twists to try to get guys through. I think that for Philadelphia, you needed to see that they could run the ball like this when your starting center has a bad back and didn't play for the entire first half, and that it's backup or what would have been the starting left guard and Landon Dickerson

who takes his place has to leave the game at halftime. And you see Tyler Steen is able to step into the game and he did have some issues. I think that this offensive line in general throughout the postseason has kind of had some uncharacteristic issues dealing with pass rushers, dealing with stunts and twists. But they were prepared. You know, you could kind of hear on the TV copy where, you know, somebody's tapping, Jordan my Lottor, Jordan M. Lott is tapping. Like, hey, they're about to run that game.

They're about to run that twist. Or here's what's coming. You know, Seyquan Barkley is, you know, in Jalen hurts his ear trying to tell them not to check out of certain runs. And I think that to me that kind of speaks to this offense, understanding its identity. And just like last week, when you see those big runs against the Rams, they know when they've got a team that just can't hang with them in the phone booth. And when they're able to get into that mode and mash you, what it does to set up the rest of

this offense, that's what you wanted to see. I think that not only is it true what Stephen and I were saying about them borrowing from different parts of this offense that have existed over the years, this is how you utilize the gravity that Saquan Barclay has as a runner. When you know the defenses have to sell out to take him away, this is how you make the most out of your passing offense around them. It doesn't always have to be under center play action. It can be RPO's, it can be quick passes, it can be screen game, it can be taking those one-on-one shots.

I don't know what to make of that quote you gave me from Jail Lerston, Nick Siriani. It makes me very excited to see if the team does win a Super Bowl, what that Lombardi Trophy presentation is going to look like with those two being next to one another, assuming he'd be a Super Bowl MVP. But I do think that if they really are opening up the door for him to take those chances down the field and he feels confident in it, that makes us a different version. of this offense, even if it doesn't look as explosive and efficient in the passing game as it did as it's best today. It's kind of hard to take that comment seriously because we've been watching the film and there are opportunities down field that he's just not taking unless like, I don't know, he's being instructed not to throw those.

I sincerely doubt that. It just seems like he's been told, don't turn over the football and he took that to heart a little bit too much over the course of the season. I think Jaylon's got a little bit of petty. I think he's got a little bit of extremist in him. and I think that if you told a guy a competitor like him, hey, don't turn the ball over, he might be the type to say,

oh, okay, well, you told me not to throw the ball. I saw a guy over there. I'm not throwing the ball. I can see that, especially given what we heard about where their relationship might have been ahead of training camp going into this season. Should we talk about the push,

the palpably unfair act? So that was a brotherly shove down by the goal line. Frankie Louvo is flying across the line of scrimmage a couple times. I didn't know this was a rule. I knew it was a rule that you could get the more significant penalty. But then when they said that if you do it again, we can just award the team the touchdown. I had no idea that that was even a thing. What did you make of that sequence?

I had heard of it because in 2016, the 49ers intentionally held the Saints like on a play before the half. And like after that happened, I'm assuming Sean Payton complained to the league. Because days later, the league kind of reinforced the probably unfair act rule. And we're like, if teams are using strategic penalties, I know Washington, I don't think Washington was doing it on purpose. I think they were just trying to time the snap and realized, hey, if we get called for a penalty, we lose, what, 12 inches?

We don't really lose that much around the goal line and they can't get an automatic first down. But teams have kind of weaponized that loophole by, you know, holding to waste clock out so a team can't, you know, go for a touchdown at the end of the half. So the league did adjust the rule because of that incident in 2016. Just another example of Chip Kelly kind of helping the Eagles down the line because Chip Kelly was the coach of that 49ers team.

A little history there. There you go. And I do think, you know, the commanders were talking coming into the game that, you know, we're going to get some hits on Jalen Hertz. That is another way to get a little smack on him, Deonté, as you leap over the line of scrimmage there as well. Yeah, I was kind of rooting for Washington to just continue to take the off sides. Honestly, if I were a player, even if Dan Quinn had said no more off-sides, just let them run to play, I don't want 900 combined pounds rolling me up.

If I play like three technique or if I'm a nose tackle in these touch-put situations, I'll just joke. Take the points. I'll save my body. Our season's probably over anyways at that stage. I don't know how other. Tjurgans having to run those plays over and over again with a bad back. Oh, my God. With a bad back.

Oh, my gosh. I can't imagine. Like I was just imagining what Jason Kelsey was thinking, watching this play. Like, man, I got out exactly what I was supposed to get out. And this probably took, it's probably sped up my clock by about a season or so, taking all this contact from the front end. It's kind of funny because Madden, Madden, the video game had to build in, like, a deterrent for this.

Because if you play a game, like, I was playing a game like a couple weeks ago, and I was beating the guy. I was kneeling on the clock. I was being honorable. I didn't want to run up to score, kneeling on the clock. And the guy kept running out of, like, off sides. So the game would never end. But in those games, if you do it like three times, they just kick you out of the game.

They call it excessive grieving. So like the NFL, I feel like took a cue from Madden. It was like, all right, this is a viable strategy. It'll be interesting to see. Did the chiefs actually come up with a solution to like this plan? That's going to, there's going to be a lot of film clips got this week. Like, what did they do against Josh Allen? Can they do it against Jail and Hirsch?

But just to circle back to what you guys said in the beginning, I think Fangio at this point in his career being like, I get Mahomes in the Super Bowl with a roster I really like. Can I cook something up to add something else to my resume? And then to your point, Ruiz Paggs is like, the Eagles are the ultimate Monday night. Like, your defensive coordinator, what's your plan? Sequin, AJ Brown, Devante Smith, Hurts in the run game, their offensive line, Dallas got her. Like, all right, what are you going to do? So I think those will be the storylines that build up here over the next two weeks.

All right, let's flip it to the commanders. Commanders have a great season, exceed all expectations. But Ruiz's point earlier is a good one that sometimes you have a great season and you don't build on that great season the next season. Success is not linear. We saw that with CJ Stroud this season. So I think this is the most fun type of season. When you have low expectations, your team comes out of nowhere, goes on a run, has a

phenomenal rookie quarterback, and you're all excited. Deonti, when you look at this commander's team, do you feel? feel good that they'll just add a little bit more and they're going to be like in the mix as a true NFC contender next season or how do you kind of view their next season, the next few seasons here for them? I mean, if the Texans in 2024 didn't happen, maybe I feel a little bit more encouraged. And that's not to say that this is the only example of it. It's just that that's the one that's been in our face all year, right?

Is the idea of encouraging quarterbacks, maybe ceiling raising quarterback, gets on the precipice of being able to compete in a playoff environment. We see even more results with Washington, right, because they win a couple of playoff games. It is easy to assume that you're just able to spin this right around and in 2025, you'll be in contention for the division again and then being able to make another playoff run. There are still a lot of holes in this roster that they've got to address. The Dan Quinn defense over time, everywhere he has been, for as much as I love and respect the style of play that he tries to employ, usually goes in the wrong direction after it peaks.

and I would say that this is probably about as close to maximizing their defensive personnel as they could have asked for this year. And Stevens has said it about players and the same thing exists for coaches. For Cliff Kingsbury, this is a do it again thing. Like awesome that you didn't crater in December and January this year. I want to see that again. I need to see you add something else to Jaden Daniels because it was hard watching this game, not feeling like this entire playoff run has just been so relying on Jaden Daniels to kind of solve problems for them.

and especially today when Philadelphia, you could tell they were selling out to make sure they didn't give up anything in the run game and that they trusted that they could get home with four. Now your receivers aren't separating against these tight, matchy type of coverages. Your offensive line is struggling to deal with the interior. Obviously, of Sam Cosmy is available. I know Tyler Beaudish was basically banged up all game and then eventually, I think, kind of succumbed to his injuries and had to come out for a bit. But they've got to build on either side of the ball, one way or the other. they're going to have to lean hard in the direction of building up the ancillary pieces that are going to make this stuff work. Otherwise, this could very easily turn into an unbelievable rookie season for Jane Daniels followed up by hanging around 500.

And, you know, it looking like teams have a better answer against him. Yeah, I think it's hard because that defense doesn't usually work without a, not even just a good defensive line, but near elite often. Excellent. And they're so far off from having that. that's the part of the roster that probably needs the most to work. I know they have some veteran stop gaps in the second level of the defense and the third level of the defense with the Marchand Latimore train, which didn't work out.

I think they got him for this particular matchup and he got embarrassed in this particular matchup in the ways that they wanted him to kind of combat against Philadelphia. He could not hang with those guys one-on-one at all. So they need corners that can handle one-on-one situations on the outside. They need pass rushers that can win in two to three seconds. and they don't have any of them. And they need mobility at the lineback position,

which, like, Bobby Wagner, we called it out in the pregame show. I think the stats don't really match the film there. And he looked rough in this game. And I thought the Eagles really took advantage of that running side to side with their running game, which is usually not what they do. They usually go downhill. As you mentioned, in that second game, Wagner looked good in the run game. But it's kind of like when you run right at him, yeah, he's going to make those tackles.

When you run away from them, that's when he's going to have problems. So every level of the defense, there's concern. And you can just look at the stats with the defense. one of the worst defenses of any of the playoff teams. And then there's all the concerns about regression with the offense with the reliance on fourth down. Like I think it's commendable. And I think the more you call plays on fourth down, the more you're going to come out positive in the long run. But you're not going to go 90% or whatever the conversion rate was in the regular season again.

That's just never going to happen again. And it's going to be tough to replicate those results and keep this environment for Jane and Daniels. Because as good as he has been, I do think like the play calling. sequence has kind of protected him at times, even though at times it has kind of made him be a playmaker when they couldn't get things open. I think both things can be true about it. So I think it's going to look different next year on offense. And I think it's a question mark on defense, massive question mark on defense. So who knows what it's going to look like next year. Yeah. I thought Daniels was terrific. I look forward to seeing him with a better supporting cast.

I think, you know, as you guys were talking, I'm like, if there's a position group on this team that I would say is above average other than Jaden, other than Jaden Daniels. I mean, there may not be one. I don't think the offensive line. I don't think you would say it about the defensive line. I don't think you'd say about the secondary or the linebackers or the pass catchers. And the point is, they got a lot of work to do.

You know, when the quarterback comes in and plays well, now all of a sudden, oh, the owner's good. The GM's good. The coordinator's good. It's like, all right, well, it might have just been like the quarterback at a special season. Like, there's a lot of work to do on this roster. You know, their plan last off. season was to sign a bunch of vets, kind of build the culture to one-year deals. And that worked out

well for them. They had a great, you know, a phenomenal season. But that wasn't like a long-term, hey, these are the guys we're going to be with for the next three years or whatever. You know, you do some of that in the draft. But yeah, they have a lot of areas to address. I would lean towards the offense, you know, whether it's offensive line or pass catcher, like build up that unit to be even better and, you know, then see where you go. Although I guess you could make the other argument the other way because they did have like a top five, six, seven offense this season with this supporting cast. So maybe I'm wrong about that. But that's generally how I lean is like make the offense as unstoppable as possible. Maybe. I guess the thing that kind of hangs me up is when

I think about the other playoff level teams in the NFC, they are all so focused on building from the trenches out. Philadelphia obviously is probably the best example of that. But Minnesota, even though they're pretty light defensively up front, they spent money to bring in Granard. And the way, way that they play defensively, it is clearly about the front and getting pressure up front. Green Bay always invests in the top 100 picks in their offensive and defensive lines. Detroit, obviously, you know, if that team is healthy, that maybe have been, might have been outside of Philadelphia, the best offensive and defensive trench unit that we would have had in the NFL.

It's going to be tough. I mean, even Los Angeles, you know, they go out and they draft a good crop of edge rushers. They went out and spent money in free agency to try to address the offensive. line. I think that if you're Washington, if you're Adam Peters, the GM, you've got to be looking and saying, we don't want to be behind that curve in a playoff environment past this year. This year, obviously, was just about flushing some of the bad that existed before all these guys came in and trying to get something built around a rookie quarterback. Everything now has got to be about what can we do to make sure that Jaden Daniels is not in a

playoff environment where we can't run the ball, where we can't block when they're only rushing for and when the team on the other end can run on demand because that was what it was about the divisional and the conference championship game and that is going to ultimately be a barrier to this team contending if they were to end up back in the situation again. Yeah, I think the one mistake they can't make is like overestimating how good they were. Like they were a Baker-Mayfield fumble away from going out in the wild card. And like think about how different this conversation we're having about their off-season outlook is if they lose in the wild card round compared to making it.

within a game of the Super Bowl. I really don't know how you build this, but I don't think you can go on thinking that, oh, we had the fifth-best offense without these pieces, and it's going to continue on that way. Because one, like we know progression isn't linear with these quarterbacks. Cheney Daniels could still be destined for superstardom and still take a step back next year.

Cliff Kingsbury, even if he does do it again, like Deontes is asking him to do, he could be going to a head job and not be in Washington. anymore beyond next year. So, like, you have to prepare for that future. You can't just assume that Jaden Daniels is going to be able to carry you. Like, he kind of did this season. I still pushed back against the notion that he carried this offense.

I mean, I'm not going to get into it right now. Sounds like a May 14th roundtable or something. Yeah, yeah. We could yell at each other about that later, Shil. But, no, I think if they go into the offseason, assuming that that progression is going to be linear, I think they could have a season like Houston where, yeah, maybe they sneak into the playoffs still because Daniels is still very good. But it doesn't look good for like the long term outlook and their status as championship contenders.

Yeah. Support the young QB. Put them in, you know, put pieces around him and see where that gets you next year. All right. One more break. We come back. We got some coaching news since we last spoke. There have been some surprise, shall we say, head coach hires around the NFL. We'll talk about those in a minute. All right, we are back on the ringer NFL show. Where do we start? I'm just going to start with a sentence. Cowboys hire Brian Schottenheimer. Deontay, your thoughts.

I don't. I'm as dumbfounded by this as I was after the AFC division around when Boston or lost to Buffalo. I don't get it. Well, I guess I do understand it because this may be the most predictable thing that Jerry Jones could have done, which is the same thing you did with Jason Garrett, however many years ago. Where it's just like, okay, guy who's already in the building.

who will kind of let me be Jerry Jones and isn't going to, you know, come, you know, saber-rattling. If we don't go, you know, and aggressively attack free agency or readdress something with our roster, he's going to kind of let us do our Jones family thing and just coach the team and be relatively unassuming. From that perspective, yes, this is very cowboys. From a perspective of this is one of the only jobs where you have a proven all-pro at his peak level quarterback that had an opening. and you have maybe the best defensive player in the NFL on the other side of the ball. Like you guys have invested a lot of money in the offensive and defensive lines. There's a lot here.

Top five-ish wide receiver. Exactly. There's a lot here where if it wasn't for Jerry Jones, people would have been falling over themselves to have this job. Why would Ben Johnson not want this job other than, you know, the fact that you're going to have to deal with the Jones family and kind of the volatility and uncertainty that comes with dealing with that ownership group? I don't know. I can't wrap my mind around it. And I think maybe the worst part about it and the thing that most reflects the way that I'm feeling

right now was Jerry Jones is like backhanded compliment of all backhanded compliments where he calls his new head coaching hire. Hey, they used to call you a career assistant. Basically, you were never in it. You were only as good as your father's name allowed you to be to hang around the league. But that's no more. I've made you a head coach now as though that's some crowning achievement.

You know, I don't think that that's the framing that the Shoddineheimer family was looking for. when he was a name-pad coach. It's funny how this league works because Mike McCarthy is responsible indirectly for Schottheimer having this job when Marty Schontheimer is the one that gave Mike McCarthy's first NFL job.

That's just a coincidence, I'm sure, just how things tend to work out in the NFL coaching cycle. But, like, I can't, I'm with Deonti. I'm at a loss for words. Like, the only explanation is that this isn't an attractive job for coaches. And when you look at their hiring track record over the last decade, two decades, plus it's really been the case.

Like Bill Parcells was the last real marquee coach to come to this team. And Bill Parcells didn't have like the best reputation coming off that jet stint. He was he was available back then. Who else they hired? They hired Wade Phillips, who was a career coordinator before that. They hired Jason Garrett. Like he wasn't a guy that everyone was like seeking after. And then they hired Mike McCarthy, another guy that was let go and thought of it as a retread.

So I just think this is just more. the same for the Cowboys, and I don't expect it to get any better for any reason. I don't know what Brian Chattonheimer brings to the table that wasn't already there under Mike McCarthy. Yeah, I mean, to me, it's just Jerry Jones is shopping in a different aisle of candidates than the rest of the NFL. You know, he wants somebody who he's comfortable with, who is going to be comfortable in that environment to what Deontay said, where it's a very specific environment where Jerry Jones is the show, Jerry Jones and his kids run the show. Jerry Jones explained it in Landon. Landman, you know, that clip that was circulating. I just finished, you know, finished it,

the series last week. First of all, Jerry Jones can act. I'm just saying, if he wants to leave the, I was like, my wife made me pause in and she's like, what was that? She's like, it was unbelievable in that scene. I'm like, I agree. He was fantastic. He laid it out. He decided at some point in his life, he was going to work with his kids. And you know what? It didn't matter if that was the best way to do it or not. He was going to see his kids every day. They were going to run the show. and who might argue as a father that that's a bad way to do it. So I think that's what he wants. He doesn't want to pay a crazy amount for a head coach at this stage of his life.

And he wants someone who he's comfortable with. And Brian Schottenheimer just fits in that exact mold of those coaches that you guys just mentioned. So that's it. If you're a Cowboys fan, I'm sure it's very disheartening where you're seeing these other organizations actually try and prioritize winning. They might fail. Like, Ben Johnson might stink, but at least if you're a Bears fan, you're like, all right, I understand, like, we're taking a swing, he has upside. This could really work out.

You really can't make that argument with Brian Schottner. Not at all. All due respect to Brian Schottonheimer. Might be a nice guy, but I don't think anyone's making that argument that this is going to be the guy to get you over the hump for the first time in 30 years. I saw, like, on Twitter, some, like, Cowboys, I don't know if he was a fan, like a blogger or something, but he was like, this is the darkest day in Cowboys history. I was like, oh, come on, that's an exaggeration.

get a grip. But the more I thought of it, I was like, holy shit, he's right. This is one of the darkest days in Cowboys' franchise history because that's just, I don't know where they're going with this higher. I don't think they're going anywhere with it. I really think it's just a placeholder for, and I don't even know what it's for, what they're holding the place for. Can I give my one contrarian take? I mean, are we sure he can't be as good of a head coach, just Mike McCarthy? I know Mike McArthur has a much longer

resume and track record. Right, I wasn't going to say, if I'm not talking about resume, you're just talking about cowboy one cowboy stint versus his cowboy yeah i think so i mean yeah i don't do the playoffs next year and lose in the first round i don't view them any differently now under schottenheimer than i would have under mccarthy they're not winning 12 games i'm saying they were contenders either way all right let me sit on that take for like six months and then uh come back to by the way speaking of mccarthy what i i thought every organization was going to have a bidding war what has mike mccarthy been hired by anybody? Did I miss it?

You felt for that grift again? Maybe you are Jerry Jones. He's the only one that felt for it last time and you're falling for it. No one who would be excited to hire Mike McCarthy? I'm not falling for. I'm making fun of Mike McCarty is the best PR of any coach of the last 30 years. I thought you felt for the PR. I'm sorry.

I didn't. Trust me. I did not fall for it. I just remember, if he lets Mike McCarthy out of this contract, watch out. The guy's going to have his choice. You think PFF's going to pick up the phone if he calls again? He's like, guys, I need you guys. again. No, that ship has sailed. All right, so that's the Cowboys. Maybe the biggest surprise of the

entire cycle, honestly, to me, is Raiders hire Pete Carroll. I did not think we would see Pete Carroll on the NFL sidelines. Again, listen, I have a soft spot for Pete Carole. I think the NFL's more fun with Pete Carroll in it than not in it. I love that he's in his 70s and he shows no signs of slowing down and has all this energy. And I don't think this is the most inspired hire for the Raiders because if you're them, you probably want, you know, somebody who's an up-and-comer because you're not ready to win right now. At the same time, it gives them, at least competency, a high floor of competency here. If you're a player, you know, go move to Vegas and play for the Raiders and play for Pete Carroll. I could think of worse ways to, like, spend my career. So those are

some of my all over-the-place thoughts on Pete Carroll-Ruiz. What were you going to say about it? I was going to say, if the Raiders are waiting for a time when they're ready to win, they're going to be waiting for a long time to hire a coach. I mean, you stop worrying about five years down the line. We're about winning a playoff game in the next year or two. And I think that's a sensible hire from that perspective. I think it's similar to the same, to the hire of the Charters bringing in Jim Harbaugh. And we saw what that did for that program. I just think bringing in an adult head coach makes sense. And I know people are going to push back against the age. But like, you're talking about a front office that's being influenced by Tom Brady. And

you're not going to convince Tom Brady that some guy is too old to do something just because you've never seen another coach do it. I think that kind of gave Pete Carroll an end that he wouldn't get with other teams. I really think that was a factor in this. Deontay? I don't hit that. I guess my, it's interesting to hear Stephen lay it out that way because the way that I kind of internalized it was that I think Mark Davis might have said, hey, Tom, assuming that he does have

the keys, he said, Tom, I'll let you make the moves that we need to make. But it has to be a guy with profile. Pete Carroll obviously checks that box, being a fourth. former Super Bowl winning head coach. And then I think he said, if you can deliver me that, you can get whatever GM you want, which to me is a more interesting thing, is what John Spitech's role is going to be with Tom Brady kind of as an overseer for this organization. Obviously, they have history going back to Tampa Bay.

He was running a player personnel. He was assisting with player personnel at that point in time when he was there. So I'm really interested to see kind of how they try to build this roster going forward. That's going to be a fascinating thing to me and just how much influence we actually feel. from Brady if SpyTech is kind of taken his calling, you know, kind of just doing his bidding. So that's going to be an interesting piece of it. To me, for Pete Carroll,

I thought that he was hireable last offseason. I think that if it weren't for Bill Belichick and I think maybe just the specter of two very old head coaches being available, maybe one of the two would have been hired by another NFL team last year. I'm with you, Sheel. I think the NFL is better off more interesting with Pete Carol in it, with a character like Pete Carroll in it. And I wouldn't be shocked.

Maybe it doesn't have to be playoff games for them. I wouldn't be shocked if it looks significantly more competent in the coming years under Pete Carroll than it has prior to. A frisky competitive team. Yeah. 1,000 percent. I mean, and he lives for this. And the best part about this is I get more Harbaugh Carroll handshakes because they're going to see each other twice a year now. I need the Raiders to get as good as possible as fast as possible so we can get more weird exchanges between these two.

because we haven't had it in a little bit. I'm curious to see how Carol fills out his staff, too. Like, I feel there was that thought that, like, oh, you know, he just stuck with his defensive system. He actually tried different things and tried to evolve. He took some swings. Yeah, and he said, at one point, he said, like, I've been arrogant about how I want to play defense,

and he tried to bring in Sean Desai, who was under Vic Fian, and, like, nothing worked. The defense was mediocre every single year. But, you know, I think he did try. And I think, like you said, he'll view this as, you know, I think he knows he's not getting another shot after this. What's his final chapter going to look like? I think he thinks about those things.

So I'm interested to see who he brings in for his staff. And can he get Gino in Vegas, Ruiz? It's also something I'm interested. That would be fun to see. He got his offensive coordinator plucked from the Cowboys already, though. No shot, however. Where's he going to go now? That's true.

Yeah, he'll have to. I love the optimism shield. I just hope you're ready for in a week seeing Daryl Bevel and Gus Bradley. are back under the umbrella with and they're running this whole thing back again. Darryl Bevel, I don't know. He's been on Miami staff. He's been with Mike McDaniel.

Maybe we get a new Darryl Bevel. And those Seattle offense is under Bevel. They got a bad rap. They were pretty good. Ruiz, it's taken until January 26th, but we agree on one of these. I'm with you. Bevel wasn't that bad.

Yeah. Bevel did. I finally got Cheel. All right. There you go. All right. Last one. Maybe the funniest story in the NFL.

Jaguar. reverse course and hire Liam Cohen. Like, I mean, the funniest part of this to me, and you guys can chime it. It's just like, I like Liam Cohen. I think he did a good job this year. It's Liam Cohen. Like, I mean, my God, what they? This is what pushed them over the top to get rid of Trent Balke.

Hand him the keys. Well, yeah, we'll pay you Ben Johnson money. Maybe it'll work out. I don't know. I'm skeptical, especially when you consider under this ownership group over the last whatever it is, 13 years, they've been, they had the fewest wins in the entire NFL. So yes, if anybody didn't follow this, Liam Cohen pulled out of the Jaguar's job, said, I don't want it, looked like he was going back to Tampa.

Tampa offered him, I think, to make him the highest paid offensive coordinator in the NFL. Then Shod Khan says, all right, let's finally part ways with Trent Bulkie, something we talked about probably a month ago at the time saying, how are you keeping Trent B bulky when you're about to embark on a head coaching? He didn't, he was the only one maybe who didn't realize that that could be a deterrent to head coaching options out there. So then he decides to reverse course, gets rid of bulky, calls Cohen. Bucks are trying to get, bucks told any reporter who was calling, listen, Cohen is not returning our calls. We cannot get into code red. We cannot get in touch with Liam Cohen. He

sneaks over to Jacksonville, signs the contract, and now Liam Cohen is going to be the Jaguars head coach. Also, now those are the funny parts. Then there was some very off-putting parts about how they duck the Rooney rule in all this as well as part of the reason why they made him kind of sneak over there because they wanted to still, I believe, bringing Patrick Graham for an interview. Yeah, yeah, give me a break. That's a joke too. So you're a clown franchise.

You're a disaster. This is unlikely to succeed unless Liam Cohen is the next Bill Walsh. All right, Deonté, that's my take on it. I don't have much to pull in the other direction with. A, you started this with the most important piece is Liam Cohen. I mean, the guy drew up some great run designs and helped push the ball down the field and got the ball out of Baker-Mayfield's hand pretty quickly. I don't know if he ever, I don't know, even if he would have returned to Tampa Bay. I don't know if he merits highest O.C. in the NFL salary.

Like, he's cool. He does some things I like. I don't know if he's worth all this. I will say, I will say. And I know I saw the tweet, I think, from Leon Cohn's wife about it, so I don't want to make light of the fact that he might have really been receiving medical attention. Okay. I apologize. I did not see that part. I'm only prefacing this so that way I can joke.

Okay. As a parent, I have oftentimes made an agreement to do something ahead of time. And then as the days draw near, all of a sudden, you know, if Braxton drops a couple coughs or, you know, he says his tummy's aching a little bit or he's feeling a little tired, I don't know, man. I might just stay home. I'll make up a kid to be sick just to get out of some stuff. But I mean, you said he has to be Bill Walsh for this to work out. I feel like it's already at the level of Bill Walsh because you got rid of Balky. Like maybe Liam Cohen's like a three out of 10 and Bill Washes a 10 out of 10.

But Balky was a minus 7. So that works out to a 10 in the net. Yeah, he already got a dub there by being the only person who could get rid of Trent Balky was Liam Cohen. What a world. What a league. What a league, the NFL. Unbelievable. Jim Harbaugh couldn't do it.

That's right. Yeah, you're right. He lost the power. Yeah, nobody else could do it there. All right. I think that's the head coaching news that will do it for this episode. Thank you to Deonté Lee. Thank you to Stephen Ruiz.

Thank you to Christopher Sutton for producing. Thank you to Tucker to Sheegen for the video additional production supervision by Connor Nevins, Arjuna Ramgapal, and Dan Comer. We will be back later this week talking head coaching news, league-wide news, Super Bowl matchout. We got a lot coming your way. And then we'll, of course, be in New Orleans next week for the Super Bowl. Super Bowl bringing you coverage of Chiefs, Eagles in Super Bowl 59. All right. Until then, talk to you next time on the Ringer NFL show.

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