The Ringer NFL Show - Contenders and Pretenders After Week 5 | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 317)

Episode Date: October 8, 2018

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark link up to discuss which conference favorites are for real and which are fooling us after Week 5 (1:45) before analyzing the unexpected competence in Cincinnati, the masterful front office in Detroit, and the bizarre Titans-Bills game (25:00). Then the guys throw challenge flags on Eli Manning's presence holding the Giants hostage and Jacksonville’s commitment to Blake Bortles before predicting tomorrow’s headlines (43:15). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, it's Liz Kelly here with two quick announcements before you start the show. We have officially launched the Ringer NBA shows Twitter and Facebook feeds, so be sure to check out at Ringer NBA on Twitter for the latest news, analysis, and rumors from the Ringer crew you know and love, and check out Ringer NBA on Facebook to chat with like-minded fans and a Ringer NBA talent. Also, be sure to listen to our first narrative podcast called Halloween Unmast. Our host, Amy Nicholson, deep dives on the famous Halloween movie franchise. There are new episodes being released Mondays and Thursdays for the whole month of October. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

And now, on to the show. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, bud? I'm all right. 24 hours of move from going to the Conner-Megger fight. This would probably be a little less exciting than that. Yeah, I would assume so.

There would be no riots on this show today. Well, you never know. I mean, we're very angry at Bill O'Brien, very angry at Jason Garrett. You never know where it's going to go. I honestly wish I could muster up the energy to be that mad at something right now. I let my dog sleep in my bed last night, and it was a terrible decision. I'm very, very tired. We're going to power through this.

It'll be okay. I believe in you. It will be fine. I had no Bears game to kind of ignite me today. Okay. So, but we'll be okay. I'm sort of still, I had to navigate what I was going to do. do in case a riot spilled into me last night. And so I'm sort of aware right now. I'm hyper aware.

The adrenaline is still pumping through you, which I really appreciate. Thank God for the riot. We're going to start today with the Kansas City Chiefs, and we're going to do it for one specific reason. A lot of the other teams that we considered contenders as recently as Friday before the season, disappointed today. As recently as five hours ago. Exactly. But the Chiefs brought it. And they were really the only team in that tier that played the way they can today. And I just think that no matter what we feel about the defense, they're going to be able to score all the time no matter who they're playing against. Yeah. It's interesting to me, I looked at the completion percentage for the other quarterbacks, the Jaguars have faced in the first three games this season.

It was about 60%. Mahomes is about 50%. percent today, I think. He had two touchdowns, no interceptions. He played a pretty, certainly for him, but for any NFL quarterback, a pretty above average game. It wasn't average, but it was above average game. And what I like to see from this Kansas City Chiefs, we thought for the first three, four weeks this season that they are Mahomes, Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, those weapons,

and nothing else. They're going to have to win despite that defense. This was a very different game, and I'm a lot more encouraged than I was. about this team on Friday. I still think there's a lot of obviously there's a long way to go. We were talking. I was kind of intrigued by October football

and where we were this time last year. And I looked at the way back machine and put an NFL.com. And the first thing is that the headline, the blaring headline was like, you know, Alex Smith and the chiefs taking over the NFL. That's fine. And the other headline,

the other huge headline was that Ben McAdoo's job is safe. Yeah. That's all you need to know. That's all you need to know about, like, what exists on October 1st. That was October 8th, 2017. It was a different era. So obviously there's a really long time to go here.

But these types of wins are the ones that get me talking myself into the chiefs as the AFC favorite. When they were just marching down the field during that first drive, it was like, okay, like this is the best past defense in the NFL. And it just doesn't matter. Like, they're going to move. the ball. And I know it wasn't at will to

the degree that it's been for them against other teams this season, but it was still one of those things where it's like, yeah, I just, by the end, their talent will win. By the end, all of these elements will be the thing that wins out. And it doesn't matter who the

opponent is. I mean, it's remarkable. It's really, really impressive. I saw an interesting nugget from James Palmer from the NFL network. Last 15 years, the number one scoring offense has played the number one scoring defense, okay, six times. What do you think the offense's record is? One and five? Five and one. Before today's game. Because the Super Bowl was the opposite of that

when the Seahawks played the Broncos. Five and one, they average 31 points per game in those matchups, the offensive team, and they scored 30 today. So this is actually in line with with the last 15 years of data, I thought that was a really fascinating nugget. But yeah, I mean, it's, again, Mahomes was not vintage Pat Mahomes, and they were still able to week out of win here. Now, I have a lot more questions

about Blake Bortles and that Jaguars team right now. This is their issue. Oh, yeah, their issue, the quarterback, yeah. Well, I mean, I think you could probably talk yourself into it when you've seen some of the other games this year. It's like, okay, like, maybe when they open it up, he'll make enough throws, the receivers are intriguing, all that stuff. And then you watch it and it's like, yeah, no, they can't do this.

Like, they cannot be a real team with him as their quarterback. Yeah. I mean, and they are right now grouped in with contenders that I'm, I'm not worried about the Jaguars. I still think they're a, they're going to win the division, certainly. But I'm just, I'm just starting to wonder if in 2018, when everybody's putting up, you know, 30 points a game, whether or not Blake Bortles can exist here. So here's why I don't think you should be super worried about the Jaguars in general, is that all the other teams in that realm of the NFL played like shit today.

All the teams we thought might be decent did not bring it. Think about like that group, the Eagles, the Packers, the Rams, the Ravens. It just no one was impressive. And I just think it's so wide open. that the Jags have enough strengths where it's like, all right, I can talk myself into that, even with portals,

even with games like what they did today, I can convince myself that they're still maybe at the top of the AFC with the Chiefs because of how bad everyone else play today. All right. Will you talk about the Eagles first? Sure.

Okay. So first of all, Wenz is getting hit a lot. I've been hit 27 times and it's three weeks back. But I want to share this stat from Shield. Padilla. In the last two games, Marcus Marriota and Kirk Cousins have completed 75% of their

attempts and averaged 8.1 yards per attempt for 645 passing yards. Nine explosive plays including two of 50 plus yards. That's not good. So here's my thing about that. The Titans look so bad today. They look so bad. So that what happened last week looks even worse. And then when watch that game today, Cousins is getting hit all the time and they're still moving the ball. That is what is worrisome is that they really got dominated last week defensively by a quarterback who could not move the ball against the bills. And today, Kirk Cousins is getting like just destroyed consistently and it didn't matter. They cannot stop anyone through the air right now.

And I don't know what the deal is. Like, Rodney McLeod is good. I don't think he's this good. Patrick Robinson will go down as one of the best value signings in the last decade. He was off to New Orleans for big money. He's out for the season now. But I think that they just don't have the pieces right now in that secondary. As you said, Rodney McLeod, he wasn't Earl Thomas here.

I mean, he was a fine player, but he shouldn't be, if this is a Jenga, you know, if this is a Jenga piece, he should not let everything collapse because Rodney McLeod is out. Well, the corners are also playing very poorly. I mean, I think that's something that's an issue, is that Jalen Mills is just the worst version of Jalen Mills right now. So Aaron Rogers asked if he's concerned. Concerned, is a quote, is kind of a buzzword that's going to make headlines if I agree with you, Rogers said. So I'm going to say that I'm aware of where we're at and we have to play better, myself included. So Aaron Rogers likes to parse media statements.

He likes to be hyper aware of himself. So he's not going to say, he's not going to agree that he's concerned because he knows the sort of Monday morning headlines if he was concerned. Hey, Robert, you're not the quarterback of the Packers. You can say whatever you want. Are you concerned? I feel like we should pay attention to his tone right now. Because think about the last time it was going poorly.

He did the relaxed thing. it was about as far away from like the type of stuff he's saying right now as it could possibly be. Am I overreacting to that? No, I mean, I mean, he's, there's been tension with, with Mike McCarthy before. That's maybe, you know, I don't, that's happened a couple of times over the past few years that's long documented. I don't, I don't think that this is a change of direction for him or a change of attitude. I think that, I don't think that was the last time. were struggling. I mean, they've looked bad, certainly, before. The relaxed thing was in 2014.

They played really poorly in the first half the season in 2016, and it was the same sort of like, well, we just got to play better. It wasn't the relaxed thing. 2014 was a very, very different team than the 2016 team or the 2018 team. So I don't think that this is, I don't think his attitude is that big of a deal. What I do think is that at some point, I just don't know. I don't know you, if you, you know, Mike, Mark Murphy came out and talked to Ian Rappaport. He's the CEO of the Packers. He came out and talked on Sunday morning. So we've seen this before. They have a great relationship, all that. I think you're going to start to see if this doesn't turn around a lot of heat on Mike McCarthy.

A couple years ago, he came out and he had the defense of himself and he said, I've been a great coach in this league, et cetera, et cetera. We might have to see that from Mike McCarthy kind of soon as sort of defense of himself. Because I think you're looking at, Ted Thompson was out last year. He's out last, last, last winter as GM. of that is because the sport passed him by in the sense that he was all about draft and develop and he didn't want to go out and take many chances. He used free agency once every four years. I think in the 2014 team, he had two players on the entire roster who were entrapped by the team.

And so it's just a different way to build a team now. And Thompson didn't really adapt. So now you look at Mike McCarthy and everything rests on him because he was the second piece of that puzzle. And I think that it's going to be really easy after making the change of GM last year to make a change at coach this year if things don't turn around. How can you not make a change at coach? Yeah. I mean, the amazing nugget, did you read the thing about what Ian O'Connor said about Brady versus Rogers? Yes. Yeah. That was years ago, right? No. I mean, I don't, he reported it like two weeks ago in his book, but it was basically that Tom Brady told a coaching associate a couple of years ago

that Aaron Rogers is way more talented than he is. And if he was in Belichick's system, you could basically give him a Super Bowl every single year. So... Did he say 7,000 yards? I think he did say 7,000 yards.

Do you think that's true? I mean, I don't think anyone could throw it for 7,000 yards, but... What do you think the upper limit is? 5,800. 5,800. Yeah.

It just depends. It just, I, I, I like to, let's, for Thursday's pod, I'm going to think about this. What is the most you could get in this season? You'd have to have a really bad defense. I think there are factors that you'd have to take into account. Or you would have to be actively looking for the record.

Yes. So, yeah, I totally agree. But, all right. So sticking on the Packers for a second here, they're running back snap counts today. And I understand the game script kind of dictated a little bit. Jamal Williams 33, Ty Montgomery, 29,

Aaron Jones, 22. Not good. It's almost like he's actively trying to say, fuck you to his Hall of Fame quarterback. Yeah. It's very, very strange. It's stubbornness.

I'm sure there'll be some things that leak out about past protection or whatever, but just get playmakers in the field and figure it out from there. Did you watch that game? I did not. Every time Jones, got near the ball.

It was like at least a five-yard game. I just don't understand it. Like, it's unacceptable. Well, okay, by the way, Mason Cross people look like absolute garbage. Sure. I mean, like, they missed some field goals,

but it just, that's not the point. They went away from what was good about their offense instantly. You remember those games where the Pats would play the Colts in the playoffs, and they would just be like,

ah, fuck it. We're running 45 times. Why against, why against this Lions team that cannot stop the run, would you not just run Jones 45 times? Just do it. It's very strange. Half of your receiving corps was not playing.

I think we're about to see some deep weirdness in Green Bay. I just have no, how could you possibly bring him back next year? All right, you want to complain about the Ravens for a second? That's just like, what the hell was that? What the hell was that? I didn't even have any analysis.

What the hell was that? I watched that game. Two teams this week that I started to let myself get excited about, Baltimore and Tennessee. And it's like, you're an idiot. Like, you're just a moron. Well, I just think that there's a lot of incomplete teams around the NFL, just like there were last year, just like there were the year before.

I mean, I think that you see because, and we've talked about a million times, there's just a very weird September and October now in the NFL because of how these teams develop, because of how young the rosters are now, compared to five, ten years ago. And so I just feel like you're going to see more clunkers in the early part of the season because of that. I don't necessarily know if those are the two teams that are going to be in playoff contention in December. But I do know that the inconsistency is now something we expect from week to week from even good teams. Which teams do you feel good about right now?

The Rams and the Chiefs. And that might be the end of the list, right? Oh, and the Patriots. Yes. That might be it. Um, yeah, I mean, you know, obviously the Bengals are four and one, but who the hell knows what's going on there? Like, maybe the Saints, but. Yeah, three and one.

Their defense can't stop anybody. I'd like to see them one more time. I may have a different answer on Tuesday after this show goes up after they play the Monday night game. This week was just, it was so, so strange because I really wanted to like the Titans and the Ravens. And it's like, well, not anymore. Why would I? Yeah, after the Jaguars Titans game, I removed everybody involved in that game

from my Feels Good About list. They looked so good last week, though. Their offense was really impressive. Mario looked healthy, like Corey Davis was destroying people, and then they come out and do this this week. It just, I don't understand. I got nothing for you. I mean, by the way, the charges are three and two.

Do you feel good about them? Just quiet three and two. I'm not asking because I think I feel good about them. You default to feeling good about the Chargers. I'm back and forth on it for one reason. Their offense has been so impressive. Rivers has played out of his mind. If they get Bosa back and that's kind of a transformative element to the defense,

I would still be afraid of them. Yeah. It's funny how we've all been afraid of the Chargers for like 15, years. The weirdest part of it. And in that window, they've never made a Super Bowl. Yes? Is the fact that the corners are really bad.

That's what happens when you have a massive injury in August. What do you mean? Verrette didn't play last year. No, I know, but I'm just saying if they had Verrett, they would have one better corner. The fact that last season, Hayward was arguably the best corner in football. Yep. By the league interceptions, I think. King was a shocker.

Yep. And what was it? Trevor Williams. He was really good. And they've really taken a step back this season. And that's the type of stuff where it's like, I really wanted to like this roster. And the spots I thought would be really good are not.

And that's the issue. So the charges play the Browns next week. So they could get to four and two. Then they had the Titans. And then that's a, I'm circling Titans. I think that games in London. I'm circling that game as I'm going to believe in one of these teams game.

Two weeks from now. Why would I blame you? Because the second tier of the AFC is so wide open. It is there for the taking for any of these teams of like the Chargers ilk. Yeah, it's funny because to underscore that point, I'm looking at the Chargers schedule and I don't see it a hard game until December when they play the Steelers. It's a legitimately hard game. But on the other hand, that's just because I think everybody in the NFL sort of sucks right now.

it's a byproduct of that. I just think everybody in the NFL sucks. And so I'm just like, oh, well, there are no hard games. If I look at anybody's skilcher right now, I would say there's no hard games. That's just the way it works. Especially after this week, I totally agree. Yeah. But again, I just feel like we're going back to this thing.

We had the discussion last year. We had discussion in 2016. Every year is going to seem weird from now on. Like, that's just how it goes. And by November and December, we'll have a clearer picture. But don't overreact anything. As I said 10 minutes ago, Ben McAdoo was. safe this time of year. I just think we need to

pump the brakes and know there's just going to be a lot of unknowns going in into at least November. All right, we got one more thing here. I don't even want to say it. We're going to talk about Bill O'Brien against Jason Garrett. So we have to? Is that like necessary? We have to. All right. So I'm going to put Jason Garrett aside for one second. He is what he is. I don't see that

going much longer if this doesn't reverse course soon. Bill O'Brien was asked after the game about his red zone play calling. Do you know what he said? I did not see it now. Okay. Well, you know who else didn't know? Bill O'Brien, because his answer was, I don't know. Then the reporter said, you don't know?

And Bill O'Brien said, I don't know. Does Bill O'Brien know that he's a play caller? Like, what is this team? What's going on here? They were at the goal line for like half the game. Yeah. watching that amount of talent on offense, like Watson was really good tonight.

Yeah, and he was constantly banged up and he was pointing at his ribs the whole game. It was... The story of the 2018 Titans. It was horrible. It was uncomfortable for me to watch to see someone with so much talent be put in such a crappy position.

I don't understand either of these franchises. Like, in terms of their offensive system choices and where they're going. I mean, it's unbelievable. So I have a couple of things I want to address here. Number one, I have a new theory about primetime games. Instead of flexing in teams, we flex in play callers. You just want to see Sean McVeigh call every Sunday night game?

If Sean McVeigh and Andy Reid were able to FaceTime into this game and just tell the coaches what to do, how many more points are on the board tonight? It's not a bad idea. It's sort of a bad idea. But I just think that there's, you know, the, the, Texans are one game behind in the AFC South. The one thing I'm worried about is they sort of back into division contention, and O'Brien keeps his job.

I understand there's talent deficiencies on the offensive line, but I just have no idea what the hell is going on. You have to find a way for Douchon Watson not to get hit like this. I mean, it almost makes me think about like European soccer, right? And in Europe, when a player puts in a transfer request, almost all the time those things are granted, right? And they get to go to wherever they want to go. There's not really a lot of hardball contractual stuff over there

in the same way there is in American sports. And if I'm Deshaun Watson and I'm getting the crap knocked out of me and I'm getting my career ruined by a bad offensive line and unimaginable play calling, I know that it's never really been done, but in your second year as a quarterback, I go to the front off and say, I got to get out of here, dude.

figure this out or I'm getting out of here. This is, I mean, I'm just saying what I would do in that situation. You are stuck in an organization that is actively harming you. I would just do anything I can to get the hell out of there. I understand that, but they also had no ability outside of, like, getting Nate Soulder this offseason to make it better. It, I, it's frustrating to wash. But I'm just saying he's getting mauled.

It really sucks for him. Tonight was really frustrating to watch, but this in a way was also the Texans team that I thought could be kind of dangerous. The receiving talent is very impressive. Watson was really good, and you just have those guys in the front four. You have Watt and Clowney ruining the game.

This version of it, even though we know it could be better and it's not fair to him, is actually kind of intriguing. Yeah, I mean, the Texans, I'm sorry, the Cowboys certainly did their point. part and helping you feel good about the Texans.

I mean, speaking of coaches that just, how are we doing this anymore? It was not good. Before we move on, let's take a quick break. Did you get the Yahoo Sports app yet? Are you ready for a live football on your phone? With the Yahoo Sports mobile app, you get live local and primetime NFL games all season long. Never miss your local game. Never miss a big national matchup.

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No, I'm moving on from that. I want to talk about Gino Atkins and that defensive line taking over against the Dolphins. Do you see any of that? Yeah, they can do that. I think Carl Lawson is super underrated. And when you pair him with Atkins and Johnson, who's fine? He's not my favorite. But they do have ability in that area.

Bangles 4 and 1. You feeling good about them at all? So here's the reason that my answer is yes. Yeah, here we go. I am so impressed by the way that Andy Dalton has played this year. They're preaching to the choir, man. I was so, I'm on Twitter this morning, and I was kind of scrolling through the NFL Magic feed.

They've done a very good job this year of throwing those segments onto Twitter. And one of the Bengals won today was about how they scheme shot plays. And it was this very cool concept where they got AJ Green Deep. and schematically it was nice, but the throw was so impressive. And he consistently has done that this year. Like the game winner against Atlanta, that is an incredible throw.

Yeah. He's completing 65% of his passes. The key for Andy Dalton is not being an elite quarterback. It's being an elite Andy Dalton. Does that make sense? Weirdly, yes. I know what you're getting at with that.

The path is to be the absolute best Andy Dalton you can be the path is not to be Aaron Rogers or Tom Brady. It's maximize your Daltonness. And I feel like a high completion percentage, a couple of throws a game that are big time throws, just doing enough so that your defense and that defensive line can wreck the game. I just think that that was, I think today was very impressive because at halftime, they're like an absolute lost cause.

That's where you start like getting into teams. And more than like, uh, it's early. who knows everything else. When they win a game like this, and it's not that Ravens game where they jump on them in the first half, and it just seems like, you know what,

it got away from Baltimore, all that stuff. When you can come back like they did and just kind of chip away at it, that's when I start getting impressed and getting interested in teams like this. And we just talked about it. The other teams in their tier

did not play well today. I mean, I quietly floated intake shop last week, whether or not the AFC North was the best division in football. First of all, I'm not even sure. It's not just judging on the other divisions in the NFL. But, I mean, I thought the Ravens were going to win this division a couple of days ago. And now I feel pretty good, at least, that the Bengals can compete. I still, you know, you cannot sleep on the Steelers because of the Steelers. But, I mean, that's a very strange division right now.

I'm ready to buy anything, including the Bengals. It's bizarre, but I'm really into it. Like that Ravens-Browns game, I liked it. I was like, oh, yeah, I'm watching this. Like, I'm, whatever happens, it has some level of interest to me. Were you watching it because you thought there'd be another tie? Well, no, it was like, I want to watch Baker every week. I'm just very, whatever he's doing, I want to see it.

And today was super up and down. I mean, he made some decisions. It was like, uh-oh, that's not good. But I need to watch him just because I feel like, it'd be like if Mahomes started last year. Like, that's how I think about Baker right now. I think it's going to be uneven, but I feel like I need it for the backlog of information

as he becomes who I think he can be. And then you watch what the Bengals did, and it's like, okay, I get this. And then the Steelers for all their woes still have this game in them. Like the Falcons defense is a loss cause to a ridiculous degree. Like, the last few weeks in Atlanta, they were a machine.

Today, it was a little bit off, and that's enough. If they don't score every possession, they're going to lose. Without a doubt. That's why on the road, I think they're going to have a really hard time this year. He had 285 yards, one touchdown. I mean, he's just going to be efficient Matt Ryan. That's it. And then there's nothing he can do about the season.

285 yards in a touchdown is not enough. I know because they don't have a spine of their defense. It's really, really bad. All right. Let's move on. One more stock up. I want to talk about Bob Quinn for a second. Okay.

That's a new one. Watching Detroit today, especially on offense, it's overwhelming how much talent they have. I mean, Kerry on Johnson is so good. And every single time, le Garrett Blunt touches the ball, I want to throw something, like across my living room.

It just makes no sense. He's been excellent. He's such a fun young player. And then you just watch what Kenny Gowaday is becoming. He scored or he didn't score it today. He was so, I think he was pulled down on the one yard line. And then he had a touchdown taken back on their first drive. When you play on a team with Marvin Jones and Golden Tate,

and I'm more excited when the ball was coming your way than on any other pass play, that's almost impossible to do. Like, what he has surrounded Stafford with is remarkable. And I have zero faith in the overall coaching staff to make this team good. But I feel like the way they've built it is impressive. On offense, on defense, it's kind of a mess. When do you think we're going to next talk about Bob Quinn on this show? Probably when he gets fired.

Yeah. That was good. Am I wrong? Like, when you watch that, Detroit offense, am I wrong? I like those players. Yes.

I like those players. You said a lot. I think that the, I think the lions have, and it's actually not dissimilar from the Bengals, where they've just got enough sort of B plus players

flopping around there that I'm, I could talk myself into them, but the Patricia thing has just been such a, weird, it's been a weird five weeks for the Detroit Lions. Every single year, I watch that offense. And I just wonder why it's not better.

Like at a certain point, do we just start to wonder whether Matt Stafford is actually that good? No, I think he's good. I think he's good. I don't know, man. But here's, here's my thought on this. So last year when the passing number started to go down. and it looked like the offenses in the NFL

we're going to be a little bit different than they are now. I wondered whether or not once that sort of golden generation of quarterbacks goes away, Breeze, Brady, that sort of generation, Rogers, who's 35, is 34-year-old Matt Stafford going to inherit the NFL?

And now that I see the younger generation, the Mahomes is, the Gophs, I realize that that's not going to happen. He's not even going to be Matt Ryan. And now I just sort of see Stafford's legacy as a pretty good quarterback who's never really going to reach that elite even when the guys who are in the elite now age out. I just think he's going to get used served by that younger generation. That's kind of what I'm saying is that it's really just forgettable. It's like, all right.

I mean, that's how I think about the Matthew Stafford era. And looking at just the amount of talent they have, it's like, God, I really wish this was better, but it never is. totally agree with you. All right. Stock down. I really wish that I was less dumb. Like the first time in the first week where I started to talk myself into Tennessee and just be like, all right, like maybe they do this. Yeah, I don't know what to tell you.

I mean, I'm as stunned as you are. I did not anticipate the damn bills winning this game. And I don't know what this is. I was reading the Titans writers earlier today. A lot of them were just like, hey, they play down to the level of competition. Is that even a real thing? I don't even know how that's possible, but I'm starting to think it is. Some of the just like decisions that Mariotta made, it's like, what are you doing?

You looked like an all pro quarterback last week against a really good, like really talented Philadelphia team. And now you're going against the bills And you look like James Winston on his worst day Just in terms of like throwing the ball to the other team It was just baffling They are last in the NFL in first half points It's what you say The decision making is just bizarre

How are we feeling right now? You've done some work on him more than I have How are we feeling about Matt Lefleur right now? So I want to go back and watch this game again Because schematically I didn't see exactly what was happening. I just knew they weren't moving the ball at all. I watched games at home today,

so I was watching it in the bottom corner of my computer screen. Is this a dog thing? Is this because of your dog? Yeah, I didn't want to leave her. Are you ever leaving the house again? I think I'm going to have to slash not let her sleep in the bed with me because... Well, you can make that change. Oh, yeah, that's going to have to happen.

Okay. But now, yeah, it was... The early slate had a couple games that I just had no interest in, and now the buys are starting. So I was like, I'll just stay home. There you go. Yeah, it was nice. Okay.

So, yeah, I mean, we've kind of said all things to be said, except, except, how about these bills? Two wins. Scrappy defense. Like, they make plays. And the front can do some stuff and it can affect offenses. And I think that that's why they'll have more of a chance in games that I, then I anticipated coming into the year. Yeah. I mean, they've beaten two teams that I consider pretty good.

And two teams that will maybe make the playoffs. Yeah, I totally agree. They've got, by the way, they've got the Texans next week if you want to be just insanely furious with the game. Yeah, I mean, that's just, I'm going to hate every single minute of that. I mean, there's no other outcome. They've got the Texans and the Colts in back-to-back weeks. Those are two just like never, ever, ever put it on direct TV, ever matchups.

The AFC South just ruins my life. All right. They sure do. Let's get to the Falcons defense and Dan Quinn. They really didn't have a chance after the injuries. I mean, when you lose Neil and Jones and Rico Allen, it's over. But the problem with what's going on, and I tweeted this today, they needed that defense to kind of come together this year.

Because teams have really short windows, and they lost one of the their years to like be a contender. It's not going to be that long until Dion Jones and Neil and I mean, Grady Jared is this spring that they need to pay those guys. This was a year they just desperately needed a cheap defense to figure it out. And now the season is over. Like they could have a top five pick. That's real. Where would you go with that top five pick? So I said this today and your instinct is defense because they're playing so poorly, but I don't know what the position is. Yeah.

It may be edge rusher. Yeah, that was my thought too. If they... Well, it also just depends what's available. I mean, if there's a top tier... 100%. I have no idea. Here's the thing.

Here's the thing. If there's a top tier cornerback or a top tier pass rusher, you pretty much always take them unless there's a top tier... unless you need a quarterback, right? Yes, but at corner, I think that their plan is so entrenched that it wouldn't make sense. I get that, but I'm just saying to pass on a top corner or somebody like the area, top passers, just take the damn cornerback or pass rush.

That's sort of my, that's sort of my philosophy in life. I guess so, but they already extended Alford and Truffant and they picked that guy, Isaiah Oliver. They picked him in the second round this year. Just keep taking them. You will never go broke taking past rushers and cornerbacks. That's fair. But past rusher, I think, makes sense because I just don't see a world in which they give Beasley like a big second contract. I agree.

He's not playing well. So it just feels like they probably go that direction just based on positional value. But the other spot that weirdly intrigues me is guard. Okay. So we said top five. Yeah. If you were in the top five, you wouldn't. do that. But let's say they get the ninth pick

and there's that kind of guy available. I have no idea what this draft is like. But that's it's strangely been a black hole for them over the last like three or four years, even as the offense was really good. And Levitre is a free agent. So for me

it would be either a guard or just some sort of playmaking front seven player. Robert, if they'd take a guard in the top ten, I'm going to start a riot. I'm going to start a Kabib style. I understand where you're coming from, but when you watch that game today, their offense needs to be perfect. And they got the shit kicked out of them by that front.

They just need an element of physicality on that team inside and they don't have it. So it's interesting to me. I want to talk about positional value for a second. Because we had this the other day. We had a weird debate. I don't know if you saw it about how much the Raiders paid their guards and their offensive line. and, you know, sort of how they decided to commit resources to that, and they sort of didn't put resources into players like Colomac, strangely enough.

And I think the point that was made is that guards, most teams have one veteran guard and one rookie guard, you know, cheap, cheap rookie contract guard. And because of that, a lot of guards end up on the open market. We saw that, you know, T.J. Lang made it to the, open market and left. Justin Pugh left. I mean, you look at the highest paid guards. A lot of them switch teams.

And so I just feel like if you're the Atlanta Falcons, you'll be able to get an above average guard like that, and you won't have to take them in the 10th round. I'm sorry, they have a top 10. Maybe, but they also don't have very much money. Yeah, I'm just saying. From a positional value standpoint, I would not take a guard in the top 10.

I think you can find those guys in a lot of different places. agree and I don't. I think with the right guy, it can be a transformative sort of guy, like pick or a siding or whatever. I think we have a philosophical difference on how transformative a guard can be, but that's okay. That's why this show works. You don't say. Yeah, I like pass rushers and cornerbacks. Let's do one more stock down before we move on here. Vance Joseph. Talk about it. What has been good about the Vance Joseph era in Denver? Like, what element of the last two, like, season and a half of Broncos football has been good. I actually have one. It's that he is the reason for the Sergio Dip episode.

That team is not in a good place, my man. No, it's not. I thought he was going to get fired last year when John Elway called the team soft. There's nothing they do well. Like, absolutely nothing. When we're talking about teams lacking identity, which I think is a real thing and it's something I think about all the time in the NFL. is there a team with a more non-existent identity right now than Denver? Like, what are the Denver Broncos? Hmm. I have nothing for you here on this one.

I mean, they have Vaughn Miller. Done. They're the team with Vaughn Miller. They had a historically great defense, historically. I mean, just a unit that was spotless and it could dominate games and win Super Bowls and everything else. Those days are over. and it's not as if the offense has picked it up at all.

I have no idea. Like, just the trajectory of that franchise. Where are they going? What is the plan? Because I have absolutely no idea. John Elway, huh? I don't know if he's good at his job. How long was that contract they gave him?

I'm not sure. I also don't, I mean, like, it's kind of a weird deal where they're trying to figure out an era of pap, Bowling. The organization's a kind of a weird spot, I think. What he did with that one free agent class that kind of completed the defense was extremely impressive. And I think that it, I wouldn't say it changed the way I thought about free agency in the league because I think that what the Seahawks did that one year changed it in my mind. But when you look at his draft record, it's horrendous. They have no.

homegrown talent that has blossomed outside of Von Miller. Who's the second best player on the Broncos? Emmanuel Sanders? Yeah. Huh. That's not good. I mean, I guess the other draft pick they were... Was Emmanuel Sanders a top 10 player on the Super Bowl team?

No. No. No, he wasn't. I would say the other guy that they hit on was Matt Paradise. That's the only other homegrown. draft pick that's worked out for them. Yeah. Royce Freeman had 31 yards today. That's

exciting. Cool. Like, the better running back that they got was undrafted. Yeah. I just wanted to make sure he didn't ball out today and he did not ball out today. Yeah, I don't think he's going to be bawling out very often behind that offensive line. All right, let's do challenge flags this week very

quickly. The Giants probably should have picked a quarterback. What tipped you off, Robert? reading that Eli stuff today, or excuse me, the Beckham stuff today. O'Dell, yeah. Yeah, it was like, yeah, I mean, who could have seen this coming? So, except everyone. Did you see the air yards thing?

What do you mean? Odell Beckham had a touchdown pass today that went 24 yards in the air. Sequin Barkley was the guy who caught it. Oh, is it the deepest throw they've had all season? Not just that. It's the deepest throw since week five of last season. which was a pass to, you guessed it, O'Dow Beckham. I don't know what to say.

Odo Beckham, it is, I know, there's a million reasons for this. You know, I think there's an old story about Gus Malin thinking that O'Dow Beckham was actually a quarterback because he saw him in warmups and was like, oh, yeah. And there's a million reasons why O'Dell can make that throw. But if you just had a gadget play where O'Dell either ran the ball or through it, I think the offense might be better at this point. It's really, really bad.

And I wasn't sure. It was like, ah, is McAdoo just terrible? Like, if they bring in a real offensive coordinator, will Eli be fine? And the answer is now.

Well, I thought, I thought, he's just gone. I was going to be a little more transformative. He just has no chance. Yeah.

I mean, his first five carries went for negative four yards. And then you watch the game. And, like, every once in a while, especially in the second half today, him and Beckham are just, going to be too good to be denied.

Yeah. But that's not a recipe to be a real football team. No. It's a disaster. Pat Schumer was oddly defiant. He was like, I'm not going to be a weak person or something in the Post-Game Press conference about the O'Dell

thing. I think things might get bad there, maybe a little sooner than we thought. So here's why I put it squarely on Eli. Because when you watched that Vikings team last year, It was not this. It wasn't this at all.

Like, they had interesting elements of who they wanted to be. And it just seems like Schumer has not been allowed to call the games and instill the offense that he wants to because of what Eli is at this exact moment. Yeah, I mean, Eli is holding, it's not his fault. And I don't want to phrase it like that, but his presence. No, no, no, no, no. He didn't draft himself and put in that position. What I'm about to say is that his presence holds the entire team hostage. They have to move on from him next year.

And the thing I was worried about is that they'd be decent enough not to be in the position to draft another guy. Yeah. I might be wrong about that. They probably can have a top five pick again based on how they're going to draft. Are they going to draft that tall guy you hate because he's tall, Justin Herbert? We'll talk about that on a different show. My pet theory about quarterback height. We'll talk about that in a different show.

People are really angry about that. And the only reason I know that is because sometimes people think you're me and vice versa. And so people are like, hey, dipshit, your quarterback height takes sucks. I mean, it absolutely does not suck because it is correct. Take it up with the people who can't tell a difference between you and me. All right. Let's do our second one. The Blake portal situation is not great.

And I know that is a silly thing to just like throw out there. like, good job, buddy. You just realized that. But when they did what they did with his contract, I think that we rationalized it just because he probably was not going to pass his physical. And to restructure it and extend him gave them about $10 million more in salary cap space. And they just made the AFC title game. Exactly. So you want to extend your window and you want to be able to retool your team a little bit in free agency when you think you can win a Super Bowl. The problem with that entire thought process and getting his number down to 10 million instead of, I think, 21, is that they spent a really huge chunk of that salary cap space on Dante Moncrief. Essentially, the gap in the $10 million Bortles contract and the $20 million, borderless contract, if they had just given him the fifth year option, is Moncrief's $9.6 million salary.

Well, here's the thing. I sort of flicked at this earlier in the conversation. The chiefs put up 30 points against them. Not all of them, obviously, were offensive points. But are the Jaguars built to win in the sort of Mahomes, Jared Gough, NFL? Because I know that it seems like, and it literally was nine months ago, they made the AFC championship game. But you start to look around and you see that the game has changed so much,

because of the rule changes, because of the scheme changes. And every week that I see record-setting points numbers, I wonder more and more if the Jaguars are built to make that run like they were last year. Last year, they sort of fit in with everything else that was going on trend-wise. You know, 538 ran the headline. The great passing boom is over. I mean, we really did think the, what, six straight years of record-setting offensive numbers, we really did think that was over this time last year.

And right now, we just realized we're at the beginning of a new boom that's probably going to take us to even more unprecedented heights. If you're defense first, that's okay. But you're not going to be able to be defense first with basically a hold quarterback position in 2018. So that's why I was kind of cautious about the Jags going into the year, is that to have the type of past defense they had last season is almost impossible to replicate, like just based on math. And in order for them to be the team they were a year ago, they needed to play at that level

because the offense was not going to get any better based on the personnel. And the past defense is not as good. It's very good. It's maybe the best in the league still or close to it. But it needed to be spotless for them to have any chance. And being spotless as a defense from season to season is pretty much impossible. And that's exactly what today was. I mean, you watch that first chiefs drive.

It's like, oh, they're doing this against maybe the best past defense in football. And that's why I think that you're pretty accurate about that. Yeah. Okay, it's time for next week's headlines. I think Monday, Tuesday at the latest, we're going to start to get what the hell are the Cowboys doing with Jason Garrett and everything that comes with it. I was there early. I feel pretty good about it.

I wrote my Cowboys take down like a week ago. Yeah. I mean, the tea leaves have been. there to be read for a long time. And the fact they came in with no new ideas, with no wrinkles, with just, I mean, if you were to sketch out what the problems on this Cowboys team would look like, if you just had a pen and paper on September 1st, it's exactly what they look like on October 7th. And that's, I think, the most disappointing part of the entire tenure. 100%. And I feel like the hires this offseason are going to be interesting.

Because the choices that teams would typically make are not the choice. And I'm not the choices that teams will probably make this, like this spring, because the chief's offensive coordinator probably isn't ready to be a head coach. The Rams don't have one. So cherry picking like really good assistance on really good teams may not be the answer. But I just don't understand why some of these teams aren't just going to look at what's happening in college and say, why the fuck not? You just wrote about how the gap has never been smaller. Just go down and get somebody that does interesting stuff and figure it out. hire Lincoln Riley.

Just give Lincoln Riley more money than the state of Oklahoma and all the Oklahoma boosters could possibly afford. Lincoln Riley and the Lincoln Riley clones I don't know about because I don't know college football. Just go get all of those guys. A team like the Cowboys straight to blank check to Lincoln Riley and a team like the Texan should find a Lincoln Riley clone. Exactly.

It just feels like people are saying, I mean, I tweeted something about McVeigh last week and everyone was like, Well, are there really that many, you know, brilliant play callers in the NFL? Maybe not, but they exist somewhere. So just go out and get somebody that's going to be interesting at the very least. Because if you're not interesting right now, if you aren't devising an offense that's creative and conducive to your players and success, you're done. There are too many good ones for these teams to look like they look right now. We're going to see such a, I actually have a prediction.

we're going to see some of the worst coaches we've ever seen over the next two years because there will be guys like Lincoln Riley who are incredibly, incredibly good who will have massive amounts of success at the NFL level, right? And then they're just going to start hiring random college offensive coordinators and stuff and they're not going to be Lincoln Riley.

In the same way, there's a million like imitation McVeves and imitation Kyle Shanahan's coming down. Belichick? Yeah, imitation Belichick's. There's going to be a bunch of imitation Lincoln Riley's, and they're all going to be 32 years old, and they're going to be massive disasters. And it's going to be really funny. Lincoln Riley is going to be a massive success, and then we're going to have a bunch of guys who go one and 31 over two years. Massive disasters are

okay if they're interesting disasters. Oh, hell yeah. Even if they're not, they're funny. All right. That's all we got. As always, guys, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll be back on Thursday. Thanks, guys. Today's show was brought to you by Fandul. I'm so excited to be playing on Fandul this football season. Because over a Fandul, you get the excitement of researching and building your team each week, regardless of outcome. Plus, they have tons of ways to play. Like the Gridiron Pickham contest where you just pick winners, no spreads, then 10,000 is split amongst the top pickers. Trust me, if you're not a fantasy expert, then Fandul is clearly the place to play.

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