The Ringer NFL Show - Crafting the Perfect Offensive Line With Brandon Thorn | Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: June 28, 2019

The evolution of offensive linemen, how to perfect an O-line in 2019, the team most likely to make the jump in line play, getting value out of a cheap offensive front, and the advantage of having a superstar. Hosts: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Guest: Brandon Thorn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? Doing okay. Mays not a lot going on in the NFL. No, which is why we're doing the offensive and defensive line play show. I thought there might be just something. A contract extension. The current lead NFL.com story is the Panthers will be on all or nothing.

Oh, okay. Which is fine. Which is fine. So we're going to continue our big picture. series this week and because again, that's where we are in the NFL calendar. And we're going to talk about offensive and defensive line play with Brandon Thorne from the athletic who does a fantastic job breaking down both. But before we do that, you were not going to chat a little bit about the topic kind of from a bird's eye view, a little more in general.

Do you know who the two best offensive lines were, according to football focus last year? By, yeah, from by PFF, it would have been the Rams and the Patriots. It would have been the Rams and the Patriots. So the only team to have a pass blocking rating of above 80 and a run-blocking rating of above 70. For the only two teams to do that. And spoiler alert, they made the Super Bowl. So the line has become, it became an overlooked part of football. I would say until the Eagles won the Super Bowl based primarily on their lines.

You know, I reported a story this time last year about how the Eagles sort of solved modern football in a way that basically every team with the Patriots had not. and when I kept talking to them about analytics and quarterback play and the rookie wage cap and the one year contracts they had trading picks for veterans, I kept, they kept coming back to the fact that, yeah, like we also built the lines and you can't overlook that. They spent a lot of money and a lot of resources on the offensive and defensive lines. And I think a lot of times people forget that. It's really freaking important, dude. It is really, I know that sounds simplistic, but, you know,

the trenches still exist. I want to talk about just the different ways the Patriots and Rams do it, because I feel like it's informative. With the Patriots, we've talked about Dante Scarnacki a million times in this podcast. We will later with Brandon, and we should. He's the greatest position coach, I think, in the history of football. And that's hard to replicate, though. It's difficult to get everyone on the same page and to develop players that were drafted

late like the Patriots can. I think the Rams are in a slightly different position. And I think what's notable about the Rams success on the offensive line last year, is that individually those guys have faults. You know, Jeff Sullivan's a guy they moved on from this year. You know, for the most, and Roger Saffold, they were willing to walk away as well. And I think one of the reasons that they were willing to do that is because they have faith in their system. And they have faith in what that play action heavy game does for offensive line.

It helps them out. It really does make your job easier when a team is using hard play fakes, when they're changing launch points for quarterbacks. and it's just so much more fluid and so much more smooth to play offensive line in that type of system. And I think the point there is that you can do this a bunch of different ways. It's not necessarily about let's draft five first round guys like Dallas did. It's let's make sure our offense helps our offensive line. And I think Minnesota is you're going to see that this year. That system is going to make those guys look a lot better than they did last season.

I think it's about the offensive line coach. You know, one of the things I'm most excited about with Arizona is that, that they went out this offseason, understood the value of an offensive line coach, and they got Sean Cougler, who was at Utah for a while, longtime NFL offensive line coach. He was in Denver last year.

It's not an accident that Denver had arguably the best design running game in the league last season. The same was true for Chicago when Matt Nagy was building his system. He looked at the best college offensive lines, saw Harry Highstand at Notre Dame, and said, I want that guy. And the Bears have been really successful

in developing offensive linemen. So I think there are just so many different aspects you have to take into account rather than let's spend the most money or use the highest level draft picks. So what I think is interesting about the offensive line in the modern game is everybody got so focused on the quick passing game. And there's a reason for that. You know, I did that piece on just how many passes and how many plays are essentially done by the first two seconds of a play. Teams like the Eagles and the Steelers last year basically cornered the market on getting really quick pressure and blowing up teams. and offenses responded to that by getting rid of the ball as quickly as possible.

Okay, so offensive lines in that case are a bit neutralized. PFF did a really interesting article. They ranked all of the slow developing plays. They ranked all the offensive lines on slow developing plays. And I thought it was really interesting because you start looking at it. And the chiefs are number three. Well, what would the chiefs look like

if Mahomes wasn't able to excel on plays over 2.5 seconds? I mean, that's not exactly, Obviously, you want to get rid of the ball quickly and quick decision making and all that, but Patrick Mahomes going back and improvising is the coolest thing he does. That would get blown up, but they didn't have one of the best tackle duos in the NFL. The Buffalo Bills go deep all the time with Josh Allen. They're number four. The Rams are number two.

The Atlanta Falcons, by the way, even though they had a crappy season with injuries last year, were number one in this category. So you start to think about the ways that changes in offense. The Browns are number five. Baker Mayfield. I mean, obviously the line tangibly changed with the transactions this off season, but having Baker Mayfield back there and the ability to have a slow developing play is really valuable for that offense for Odell Beckham, for those weapons.

It's awesome. See, and I think, again, this is about figuring out different ways to be successful and different ways to kind of solve this problem. If you think about some of the highest play action rates in the NFL last year, Jared golf was number one, Patrick Mahomes was number five, and Matt Ryan was number eight. It helps your offense on those slower developing plays because you're not just holding up against a guy with his ears pin back that's screaming after the quarterback instantly. You create hesitation. You create misdirection.

And they're just, that's what really good offensive minds do is they help their players become better. Their units become better solely by virtue of design. And I think when you look at that list, it's really telling for which of those lines did the best on slow developing plays. because it almost entirely lines up with who uses the most play action. Yeah, I mean, that's that, that is modern football, the ability to, to excel play action. And I just think that we don't, we don't talk enough about investment in the lines, both offensive and defensive. So let's go to defensive because this is a kind of a debate that's raged since the beginning of the off season. PFF did a really interesting study about the nature of pressure versus coverage.

We've talked about it a few times on this show. And I think that it becomes a question of how you invest your resources. We saw the Patriots let trade flowers walk. You know, the Bears gave Kluomack $23 million last year after trading two first round picks for him. If you were in charge, how do you think you would do it? Because I'm back and forth about this because even when I've talked to people at the Patriots and asked them about their plan, there's always a caveat in there of, well, if you can

get Kaleel, Mac, you do it. I mean, there are some players that kind of step outside of this infrastructure that you're trying to build. But I really am torn because I guess. I mean, they had Chandler Jones and they got rid of them. Chandler Jones isn't Kalil Mack. No, I know.

This is a slightly different conversation. He does occasionally lead the NFL in Sacks. So it's interesting to me that that particular nugget was in a story I wrote last year when Neil Hornsby from PFF said that Bobby Wagner, according to PFF's wins over replacement, was the most valuable defender because PFF values coverage over pass rush. And that was in the story. I didn't think much of it. And then five months later, it became the weird Twitter debate of the off season.

I actually just wrote about this for tomorrow, about how Bobby Wagner deserves to get paid like Aaron Donald and Cleo back, which is funny. I totally agree with you. I mean, it goes back to something Richard Sherman told me, which was that he thinks that someone like Bobby Wagner was penalized because he played with too many great players early on. I just think when we talk about value and about contract discussions,

sometimes there are guys that transcend positional value and how we normally do this. Like when Aaron Donald re did his deal in 2018, I think Fletcher Cox was making about $17 million a year, but Von Miller was making 19. So if you're negotiating Aaron Donald's contract, he just finished his defensive player of the year, typically you would look at the highest paid player in his position. You'd trump him and you'd say, okay, we did our job. But when it comes to Aaron Donald, that's not right. He should be the highest paid defensive player.

And if you're looking at Bobby Wagner and you're looking at C.J. Mosley's $17 million, say, oh, I'll make 18 and I'll be the highest paid inside linebacker. But why would Frank Clark and DeMarcus Lawrence make more money on their deals per year just because they're edge rushers if Bobby Wagner is a more valuable

defensive player? So I just think that there are conversations and considerations to be had about positional value when it comes to how much these guys end up getting paid. Yeah, so to answer your question about how I would approach it, I would approach it the way that exerts the most value from it. You know, one of the lessons of Bill Belichick is, okay, he ran a three-four until nose tackles and outside linebackers and the three-four became overpriced, and he switched to a

four-three. And that's sort of how I would do it. I would, if cornerbacks are cheap, I would get cornerbacks and build a secondary out and forego the pass rush. If that flips on its head because every, you know, we talk about this a little bit with the trading down thing, where maybe there's now inefficiencies because everybody's so obsessed with trading down in the draft. If, there becomes an inefficiency in pass rush because teams have decided that they want to go an analytical-based approach and to build out the secondary. Maybe there's some deals there. So I don't think there's any exact route to take because, by the way, you can still win

with a good pass rush. Yeah. I mean, we saw the Eagles do it. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly how they were built. I mean, they had some duct tape and kind of paperclip approach to the secondary. And that's what they did at corner. They traded for cheap guys.

and they tried to make sure that they were just guys that were serviceable, and they built out the defensive line. I just think that when I'm looking at it, I tend to have certain archetypes of players that I really like, and on the defensive line, it's always undersized interior rushers. I would much rather sacrifice some bulk and some run defense and just have guys that are tearing after the quarterback. I really like what the Falcons have done up the middle of their defense

and the types of players they've tended to value. Brady Jarrett's a great example. And if I was building a defense, that's normally what I would go with. I would just say, give me those guys on the interior, and I want my edge guys to be a little bit bigger. I don't want those 240-pound guys because I'd like to be able to slide them inside, if necessary, in certain packages. So that's how I would do it. I don't know if that's the right way, the wrong way, but just based on my preferences, that's always how I've thought about it. Yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of ways to build a defense, and I just think that, I just think there's value everywhere. That's the amazing thing about, and this will continue to happen as we learn more about football. And that's one of the things that I think is interesting about PFF or football outsiders or someone like Warren Sharp, Revin Silva, who do these things all the time. We're going to learn so much more because there's so much more data. There has never been more data about football than there is right now, and that's just going to keep growing. We're going to get the player tracking data stuff we've talked about before. You know, there was a team that, you know, thought they some defensive back played slow.

And then they saw it so as player tracking data and they realized he should have been a second round pick or whatever instead of a sixth round pick. That's just going to keep happening. We're going to learn so much about the different positions in football. And it's a really exciting time to be a fan. I totally agree. But the fun thing about offensive line play for me, though, is that there aren't as many numbers. And that's what I've always enjoyed about it is it's a really kind of dig down to why guys are good. You have to watch them.

And I think that that's one way teams have started to go in recent years and something that I really appreciate. Jonah Williams was a top 10 pick because Jonah Williams can just play football. If you look at Jonah Williams testing numbers, they're not good. They're below average. But you look at just his production at Alabama, how many starts he had, how well he played against the best players in America. He just knows how to play the position. And I think that's what's exciting to me is just seeing more and more teams understand the right way to go about this, whether it's the numbers, whether it's how you evaluate, everything.

And that's exciting to me because when offensive line play was just terrible left and right two or three years ago, that wasn't enjoyable. Last year, when it really took kind of a big step up, that was. So we are going to start our discussion with Brandon Thorne on that exact point. Deshaun Watson screaming at his phone saying, wait, it stopped being terrible. But hey, so this is how we started the show. There are different ways to do this. and Deshawn Watson makes life much harder on his offensive lineman.

He holds the ball more than any longer than anyone else in the league. I'm not saying that the people building that team are without fault, but there are a ton of different factors involved here when we're talking about why sack numbers are high, why teams get drives destroyed by sacks and pressures. It's not always on the offensive line. It's not always on the quarterback. It's somewhere in the middle every single time.

All right. Should we get to Brandon? Let's get to Brandon. And now we are thrilled to welcome Brandon Thorne from the athletic to the show. That's the first time I've been able to say that, right? You haven't been on since you got the new gig. Yeah, man, it's exciting.

I'm really happy to be a part of what they're doing there. I mean, such a great team of writers. And, yeah, it's awesome to be a part of it and cover the Broncos, no less. So, yeah, I'm stoked for the season to get here. So you'll be writing about the Broncos. You're a Broncos fan, so this all kind of coalesces in a cool way.

But what you have become known for on the internet, and rightfully so, is that you analyze offensive line, play in a way pretty much no one else does. So we're going to dig into that today. We're going to talk about just some more big picture theoretical things in regard to offensive and defensive line play. We're going to talk about some specific players you like, some specific traits you look

like on either side of the ball. So I guess just first and foremost, why don't we start from a bird's eye view here? As you're thinking about just the state of offensive line play, maybe even as it relates to defensive line play right now, where do you think the league is maybe compared to where it was two or three years ago when it seemed like we were having this kind of crisis and epidemic of terrible play? Yeah, so you could definitely see a noticeable increase in the quality of play over the last couple of years, I think, for offensive linemen.

And in doing a little bit of research on the draft over the last four years, really, you could see the difference in the amount of valuation that would go into offensive line play, such as if you look at the 2016 and 2017 draft in the first three rounds, there was 31 players total drafted for offensive linemen. And then in the last two drafts, there was 40. So nine more there, but then just the quality of player has, I think, increased pretty significantly as well. If you look at the last two draft classes in particular, I think they were very, including

the 2019 draft, which I think is going to be a very strong class. And the 2018 draft being a very strong class, I think that's really helped sort of bridge the gap between offensive and defensive line play. I mean, just from that 18 draft, you have guys like Quinn Nelson, Michael Finchie. I think Frank Ragnow is going to be a good player. I think Isaiah Wynn's going to be a good player. Austin and Corbett has a chance. Will Hernandez is going to be good.

Braden Smith, James Daniels. So there's like a lot of high-quality starters there. And I think there's probably going to be a similar amount from this past draft as well. So I think the draft has had a lot to do with that, to be honest. And it's good for all of us because there was a pretty much bigger decision. between the two sides of the ball, I think prior to maybe 2018. So why do you think that is? Do you think that's because the players are actually getting better?

Do you think that teams are starting to look for more of the right traits? I think it's probably a little bit of both because I think what's become increasingly important and more apparent lately has been the emphasis on technique for offensive alignment and for them to have a certain base in the fundamentals of the position as opposed to just going for those athletic freaks or just the size, the length, the speed, those kind of things that aren't really primary factors to quality offensive line play, especially now when you don't really have the time. And I think that that's become more and more apparent.

You don't really have the time in the off season a lot of these offensive linemen. You want guys that are able to come in right away and be good. And even if their ceiling isn't like a Tyron Smith or Trent Williams, because there really isn't a lot of those guys anyway. I think the high floor guys have become more of a priority and then that led to better offensive line play in general and you look at certain schools I think that's a way to identify it.

You want guys who have started a certain amount of game and then when you watch the film you want to see a certain level of technical proficiency there so you don't really have as much work to do from the get-go with them. You know, Brandon, one of the things I've been fascinated with the last couple of years, really maybe since the CBA was signed eight years ago is how offensive line has changed

because of the lack of practice time you alluded to a little bit the sort of the rise of the athletic freaks that are now cycling out as far as being in vogue with NFL teams when you think... We call it the Eric Flowers rule. The Eric Flowers rule, right?

Or the... Yeah, I mean, actually, I mean, there's unfortunately there's about 50 of those guys who were basically... You know, one of the things I remember talking to coach last year and he was saying, you know,

really teams just got so lazy that they were like, This guy is big. Our quarterback can get rid of the ball in a second, so we'll just put this guy out there and see what happens. And I really think that's fascinating. But when you think about modern NFL line play, what team jumps out to you is having perfected just how to build an offensive line,

how to take these athletes and make them good, how to develop from the college game where it's not the same as it was 20 years ago, what is the best team at building a modern offensive line? right now. So yeah, it's kind of hard to narrow down one, but I think, and I don't think this is a coincidence with team success. I think the Patriots really have to be mentioned in, you know, as an answer to this question. And it really starts, I think so much of quality, offensive line play starts coaching. So you really start with some of the elite coaches. I look at the Patriots and the Steelers, those teams really jump out to me. The Cowboys just because they have three of arguably

the best players at their position. But just from a unit cohesiveness, perspective and seeing how well a unit can play together and play off one another and handle stunts and blitzes and communicate and things like that. I look at the Patriots and the Steelers and a lot of that I think has to do with coaching but also continuity. They usually have the same guys coming back and I think that matters greatly for the communication aspect of the position. But yeah, I mean, Dante Scarnacia, the Patriots Offensive Line Coach and Mike Muncheck, the former Steelers' offensive line coach, what they've been able to do and instill in their offensive linemen, they've really been able to get the most out of their players.

And they haven't necessarily had the most talented guys by any means, but they typically focus on guys who are fundamentally sound, not very flashy or sexy, guys who can come in and have a high floor, and they're going to kind of coach them up to really extract the most out of them. And I think those two teams, to me, really jump out. You know, I think we hear so much about Dante Scarnacia, and he doesn't talk to the media a lot, which is not uncommon in New England. But I feel like everyone hears about the lines he's built and the magic he's created there. But for someone who studies it like you, what exactly is the Scarnacia effect that makes these guys so much better? It almost reminds me a little bit of what the Braves went through in the 90s where, you know, the pitching coach Liam Zoni basically just every time a pitcher would come to Atlanta, they'd be solved and then go somewhere else.

for bigger money or the guys who would stick around would win the division for the Braes every year. So what is the Scarnikia effect for the layman who doesn't study it, doesn't study offensive line play? Yeah, so I think it's really getting the five offensive linemen to play is one. And I think that that's the biggest thing. And it really has to do with,

I think you can see that both in the running game and the passing game, but I think it's a little bit easier to see in the passing game, specifically pass protection, where you see defense is throwing exotic fronts, exotic looks, different kind of blitzes at an offensive line, and you see how guys communicate, how they're able to maintain levels, as they call it, an offensive line world,

which is basically proper spacing to the guy next to you without getting too deep or too shallow and allowing guys to penetrate a gap prematurely, you know, and things like that. So I think really being able to work as one as a unit, and that goes back to bringing the same guys back. And really, if you have to have, I think a big part of what Dante Scarnicchio does as well is he really

trains his offensive linemen to play multiple positions. You see that in training camp and practice and things like that. I had Damien Woody on my podcast recently, and he really talked about that extensively, how, you know, when he got there, he oftentimes in the off-season would play multiple positions throughout camp. So when the season comes around, he knows multiple responsibilities. He's able to seamlessly transition to new spots.

And I think you see that time and time again with guys. And then on an individual level, I think he makes guys better technically. He just, I think, provides them additional tools that they can draw from over the course of seasons and games. We see that, of course, time and time again, like Trent Brown being the most recent example of that. So it's really just getting guys to play really as a cohesive unit and then also bettering guys individually as well. So the cohesive unit thing I think is so interesting because this only matters when you're thinking about building an offensive line when it comes to how you use your resources and you have a finite amount of that. And kind of what I've come to understand from people who know a lot about it like you or Jeff Schwartz or even guys I've talked to in the league, it's almost more important to have an offensive line without a weak link than it is to have one or two great players and not spread your resources out evenly.

I'm thinking about the Redskins right now where you have these expensive players at certain positions with Trent Williams and with Moses Morgan, but then you have Eric Flowers starting on that line. The same goes for the Giants last year. This is a group that spent a ton of money on Nate Soulder. They're going to spend a ton of money on Nate Soder and Kevin Zyler this year, but you're going to have weak links. So is that kind of how you think about it? Would you rather have an offensive line of five average players or an offensive line of three great players and two below average wise? Yeah, it's a great question. I think it largely depends on the coaching.

I think that's a big part of it. If I had a really good coach like the Patriots Steelers, the Eagles jump out to me, the Saints, Dan Rauscher, the offensive line coach there, underrated guy, Aaron Kramer with the Rams. If I have one of these type of coaches, I would definitely pick the five average guys because I believe that they could extract more. more out of them and get them to maybe play at an above average level, as opposed to if you had the three really good players and two sub-ar players, it's hard. It's harder to make the low average players average, I think, than average players above average. I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but to me, it's just harder to bridge that gap. There's less there to work with. And yeah, I think, but I think really you have to consider like what sort of infrastructure is

going to be in place for those players and a big part of that is coaching. So, yeah, if I had a really good coach, I'd be more comfortable with the five average. But we've seen success the other way as well. I think of, well, the biggest example is the team I mentioned earlier, the Cowboys. But when you have guys that are that great at those, you know, like the left, yeah, like, but that's rare, obviously. They're kind of an anomaly. So, yeah, I'd rather go with the five average, especially if I have a, even just a

competent or better coach. So let's go for a more recent example of a line that hasn't necessarily been great, but rebuilt itself very quickly. And I want to talk about the bills, because I think they're a fascinating example of this. So this is a group that essentially had to rebuild themselves from scratch after last season. You know, D.N. Dawkins was there, but they needed four new starters more or less. And to do that, they went out and they gave Mitch Morse a lot of money, which that's fine. I mean, he's a solid player.

Him resetting the market at that position is fine. But then to go out and get Ty Niski, to play right tackle probably, to go get Cody Ford in the second round. in my opinion, I don't know if you agree. That's the way I'd like to see more teams build where you're signing Quentin Spain on the cheap and a guy like Spencer Long, you're giving yourself options, even if they're not expensive options,

in order to make sure that you don't have one player that's going to tear you down. I don't know how you feel about that, but I've been really impressed with what they've done. Yeah, I'm also a big fan of what they've done. I mean, you have to take calculated shots like that. And if you do that and you bring in a bunch of guys who are solid, I think when you get into training camp and you have all that competition,

it typically gets the most out of guys. So I really like the idea of increasing your chances. It's sort of like acquiring draft picks. You know, that's similar type of mentality of you want to give yourself more chances of success. And in a way, it's kind of similar because if you even bring in a bunch of solid players like they've done, I think that there's a really good chance that there's going to be a group of five that are going to stand out. they're going to click and you're probably going to have a pretty good unit in 2019.

And I think that they will. I mean, you know, the only place to go is up for them, really. I mean, they were really bad last year. And I think that they're definitely going to be a solid unit because of their strategy and also because of the guys that they brought in. I personally really like some of these guys that you mentioned. Cody Ford is a guy really liked. I think he has positional versatility, guard or tackle.

And then my favorite guy, I mean, Ty Naseki from the Rescant is the guy who I've been a huge fan of since 2016, really. He's filled in admirably when Trent Williams has won down and, you know, multiple times of left tackle. He's played right tackle. He's played left guard. So you've brought in Spencer Long has played multiple positions. You've brought in all these guys who could play multiple positions. And I think they're all pretty calculated signings and drafting as well. So, yeah, I'm a huge fan of it.

And I think their approach should be probably mimicked a little bit more maybe next offseason. Maybe we'll see a couple more teams kind of go with that approach, which I think is a really smart way of going about it. You know, Brandon, in preparation for this pot, I was kind of playing around with the PFF and looking at the different teams. And it probably shouldn't be much of a surprise that the Rams and the Patriots had the two best offensive line grades in the NFL last year. And then obviously went to the Super Bowl. Is there a team we don't talk about enough as far as how they've built the lines? a couple years ago, I think we were all sleeping. Everybody really, except for Robert Mays,

we're sleeping on the Eagles who made huge investments in both their lines and obviously showed that that season. Is there a team who've done such a good job building the lines, both offensive and defensive, that maybe they're going to be a lot better than we think in 2019? Yeah, so as far as offensive and defensive, yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, defensive line-wise, I think the Browns, you know, really jump out.

an underrated offensive line. I mean, season, I think that the Broncos have a good chance of making a significant jump because they've hired Mike Muncheck and also bringing Vic Fangio as a head coach as a defensive head coach with good personnel on the defensive line. I think both their units are going to see a pretty significant jump this year

with the Broncos signing Joanne James at right tackle, having Ronald Leary back healthy, and then also drafting Dalton Reisner to play the other guard spot. It's really contingent on if Garrett Bowles can get to a solid level

or not. And I mean, I think if he's ever going to do it, it's going to be under Mike Munchek. And I would probably think he has as good of a chance as anybody to make him a good player

or at least a solid player. So I think there's pretty good chance that you're going to see the Broncos have an offensive and defensive line that might surprise some people next season at least. I think that on defense,

one of the teams that I'm looking at is the Chargers just because they have those edge guys, they bring in Jerry Tilleri, who just is such a penetrator and disruptor in the interior. And I wanted to ask you, similar to the idea of technical ability and just being a technician on offense, what do you think are the underrated traits of being a defensive player?

If you had somebody that was kind of incomplete on the defensive front, but really fit what you wanted to be as a team, what trait would you say that is? Could you rephrase that a little bit? So if you're looking for a play, like Jerry Tilleray, I think is somebody that people were a little bit down on, but he has one elite thing. He gets, he penetrates, he rushes the past on the interior very well. So if you had to pick that thing for you, if you're looking for a player that may be a little bit undervalued

because he's not a complete player but has one significantly elite trait, what would it be? Well, yeah, I mean, you're talking, I think, about a guy. And I always look at when I evaluate offensive and defense, especially defensive lines, do they have a trump card? Do they have something to where that they, they do they, can rely on it. And, yeah, the guys who can have sort of like a go-to move, a signature

move, I think that that's probably the most important thing, especially in today's NFL, to have a defensive lineman that has a signature move. And if they have that, chances are that if they've perfected one, that they at least have a secondary one more times than not.

But really, if you had that signature move, you can go to, I think that that's invaluable. And there's several that come to mind, especially lately, as I've been studying, as I've been going over a defensive line play from last season. A couple that really jump out to me is Aaron Donald, you know, obviously he could do everything, but I think his forklift technique,

and what that is really is when the offensive linemen get their hands on you, your ability to get their hands off of you. And you can either come up under their wrist and throw them up or come down and push them down, basically. You have to have a really good hand placement to do that, but it's a really effective way at shedding blocks and getting around offensive linemen. And Aaron Donald's kind of the gold standard of that technique, I think.

And another one that's kind of in vogue right now that's very popular and it's really spreading across NFL is the cross-trop technique. I think if you have a defensive lineman that can execute that technique at a high level, it's really, it's winning. And you could see it from guys like the Marcus Lawrence, Anakin, the Cockway, DeForest Buckner and Aaron Donald, of course, has that one as well at his disposal. but when you see that move executed at a high level,

it's very difficult for offensive linemen to stop that. There's a lot of deception that's involved in that technique, and it's just a tough one to stop. So, yeah, if I'm looking at a defensive lineman to have one thing, it'd be a signature move, and it's specifically one of those, I think, are probably the two hardest to stop. Hey, Brandon, you know, we've seen so many teams

that seem to allegedly have a great team. they get undone by the offensive line. Obviously, the Texans are where they are, and we've seen how many times Sean Watson's been hit in the past. Obviously, the Seahawks have had their problems, although Dwayne Brown is as good an offensive line as is in the NFL right now.

When you look at a team right now that you think will be undone by its line play, what jumps out for 2019? I have a really hard time seeing the Miami Dolphin having any success this season, really because of their offensive line. And it sucks for Josh Rosen because he's literally, he went from UCLA,

which was a bad offensive line to the Cardinals, with the bad offensive line, and now the Dolphins. I think they might be the worst offensive line. So, yeah, I don't see a lot of success happening for them. I really like their left tackle. Lammy Tumple.

I think he's an ascending player who's going to be very good for a long time. But the other four positions, I just don't really see a lot there. They drafts as a guy from Wisconsin named Michael Dieter, who I really, like, but I kind of see as a solid player at best. So, yeah, I see a lot of holes. I just, I really struggle to see how they're going to block a lot of people in 2019. I mean, to be honest, it's, it's

really bare there. They don't have any depth. And that team, to me, probably jumps out more than any other. And then again, the Texans as well, I see her got to struggle pretty, pretty heavily on my offense line as well. But the dolphins, to me, are probably number one. I'm canceling my Dolphins Super Bowl bet after that. You look at it, they're about, they're slated to spend $14.7 million on their offensive line, which is the 32nd ranked team in the league. No one else is any less than 26.2 million. So about half of the team that's ranked 31.

But you look at the other teams down near the bottom, and I think this is where you find success, right? New England is 27, which is insane. The Bears are 29. And Carolina, which I think, like Buffalo, did an excellent job rebuilding its offensive line this year, is 31st at 26.2. So it's just one of those things where if you can get to be in that range or you're not paying anyone, but you have a top 10 offensive line,

obviously that's the end-all, be-all goal with this. Yeah, absolutely. And I think last year, the Patriots were 32nd, maybe, or even below that ranking now. So they're the masters really at a lot of things. But I think one of the underrated parts of it is how they've been able to build offensive line and really get the most value out.

of them. And I think it goes back to coaching to a large degree for them to be able to do that. But yeah, I mean, some of those teams you mentioned, I mean, that's, that's really impressive to not spend a lot on offensive line and to have really good units up front. I mean, obviously that's the key. I mean, if you can, and it comes down to, I think, effective evaluation and effective coaching. If you can marry those two things, you can do it. But if not, you're going to really struggle a little bit. But, yeah, the dolphins, I mean, they're going to get what they've They spend this year, I think. And as they should.

I mean, they're in that kind of rebuilding phase. But when you think about Chicago, you know, I think that they're a really good example of a team that's a good job of saying, all right, let's be creative in the ways we do this. You know, Kyle Long is a first round pick. Cody wears, Cody Wender is a second round pick. James Daniels is a second round pick. I mean, guys that are a little bit high level, but they got Charles Leno off the scrap heap and signed him early. You know, they signed Bobby Massey to a $6 million a year contract in free agency as other teams are paying twice as much.

You know, Joanne James on his deal was about to make 13. So that's the thing, is just kind of finding bargains. I think free agency is a tool for offensive line construction, but I think too often teams are looking at, all right, who's the best right tackle rather than who's a functional right tackle? And I wanted to ask you very quickly about the Patriots in one more aspect, because as we talk about that, having a bunch of useful players, there's been kind of a debate recently about how you should spend on edge rushers

and defensive linemen in general. And the Patriots let Tray Flowers go. they'd rather have a bunch of cheaper guys that look similar. If you were building a defensive line, do you think that there's an adequate way to take away stars to the point where you should have more depth than star power? Or do you feel like a guy like Khalil Mack, Aaron Donald, somebody like that is going to be worth it no matter what every time?

Yeah, I kind of lean towards having that superstar guy because I think for the most part, teams really struggle with those guys. A team like the Patriots last year in the Super Bowl, the way that they were able to handle a guy like Aaron Donald, I think that's really rare. And the way that they are able to really kind of neutralize pass rushers in general is rare. Just because I think, again, goes back to coaching and how low guys you're able to work together and pass things off,

communicate stuff like that. But that's really the exception, not the norm. I think for the most part, just generally, if you have a guy like Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, it's going to make everybody around him better. It's going to take attention away from other people and provide more one-on-one situation. for other pass rushers.

And I think that ideally that's the way that I would want to start a defensive line is give me the blue chip type of guy that I could just plug in somewhere. Ideally, I mean, and then another conversation is, you know, do you value that blue chip guy on the interior or on the edge? And I think that's a really fascinating discussion as well. I think to Jim Schwartz, the defensive coordinator for the Eagles, he's a big proponent of high-quality interior defensive line play because he believes, you know, pressure up the middle is more disruptive than pressure off the edges.

And I tend to agree with that. I think if you give me Aaron Donald or the best edge rusher in the league, I'm taking Aaron Donald every time. And maybe even Fletcher Cox, just because I believe what you can do with that from the interior, I think it's just, it could be so dynamic just from that one piece being in place. And then the guys around him obviously don't need to be quite as effective. but yeah, I think you could do it successfully either way, but that would be the way that I would probably want to do it. And if we're looking at kind of, again,

you know, inefficiencies, things that are undervalued. That's why if I were building a team, I would try to find as many 280-pound defensive ends as I could because I just love the idea of able to slide those guys inside on passing downs because you can have a little bit of versatility, but you also get that interior pressure that we're always after. So, again, undersized guys, at that position that are maybe too small to play defensive tackle,

too big to play defensive end. If you're looking for something to, you know, you can squeeze as much value out of as possible. That's always one for me. Exactly. I mean, it's a great example. I mean, he's a tweener that ended up becoming a great player. So, well, Brandon, I think that's all we got for you, man.

I could do this all day. You know I could, but I'm not going to do that to Kevin, and I'm not going to take up all of your time. Thank you so much, Brian. We really appreciate the insight. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, absolutely, guys. Thank you for having me.

All right. Talk to you soon. Bye. Thank you so much to Brandon Thorne for coming on. That was fantastic. Again, I could talk to him all day. Kevin, thank you, as always. And thank everybody for listening.

We'll be back next week with the next in our big picture series. And we'll talk to you then. Thanks, guys.