The Ringer NFL Show - Dan Orlovsky on the Current State of the Quarterback Position, Plus a Legendary ‘Take Shop’ | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 325)

Episode Date: October 18, 2018

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark are joined by former NFL QB Dan Orlovsky to talk about how his Twitter analysis led to a job at ESPN, the current state of the quarterback position, and his impressions on Patrick Mahomes II, Jared Goff, and the rookie QBs (0:45). Then the guys dive into a legendary Take Shop before breaking down the biggest games heading into Week 7 (31:00). Follow Dan on Twitter @danorlovsky7. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly. One shiny podcast will be touring from Friday November 2nd to Wednesday, November 7th, where Tate, Titus, and Nephew Kyle are traveling to Columbus, Ohio, Louisville, Kentucky, Bloomington, Indiana, and Chicago, Illinois to tip off the college basketball season. You can find links to tickets on the ringers Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Also, be sure to catch up on all of our NBA preview Palluza content from Tuesday, where you can find Bill Simmons, Shea Serrano, Joe House, and more previewing the start of the NBA season. You can check it all out on YouTube. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm Kevin Clark.

Joining me is Robert Mays. We're going to do a little something different this week. We're joined by former NFL quarterback and current ESPN analyst and Twitter legend. Dan Arlobtsky. Let's get right into it. Dan, you may not remember this, but last year we were at the CIA party at the Super Bowl together. And I remember talking to you and I was like, I love your Twitter account. And that was it.

Like, that was kind of the conversation. And now you're on ESPN like every 15 minutes. It's been good. A night that I know. I would not put myself in that class, but thank you. Yeah, no, it was a lot of fun. That was kind of the beginning of this kind of wilder journey that I've been able to. It's been on social media, but it's been a blast.

So Dan is it Dan Orlovsky 7 on Twitter? Again, please go follow him. And what he does there, a huge majority of his feed, is really just breaking down specific concepts, and it's very heavy on quarterback play, as you can imagine. Dan's played in the league for 12 years, and he's one of my favorite people to, read on quarterbacks to listen to on quarterbacks. And that's what we're going to talk about

today. You know, obviously on this show pretty much every week, we've had some redux or reset about where the position is because of the new guys that have come in and because of just the state of the position in general. I mean, Kevin's written about it. It's easier than ever to play quarterback and the numbers are astronomical. But we wanted to bring Dan on for a fresh perspective and a perspective with some actual knowledge as opposed to what Kevin and I try to do every week. as much as we try to understand the quarterback position, it is completely different to have actually played it. It's night and day.

Dan, before we get into it, I have a question. How did you decide to get into that sort of Twitter realm and do those video breakdowns? What inspired that? Yeah, so really what happened was in the back end of the summer of 17, I was in camp with the Los Angeles Rams, end up getting cut.

And I knew that I wanted to get into post-playing career analyst TV world. And so I get cut and I'm home for a couple weeks and I'm not wired to just sit around and do nothing. And also at that time I'm very aware like no networks calling me at that moment going, hey, come do games or something like that. So, you know, through some conversations, I was like, I've got to figure out a way to differentiate myself. Like, what's going to be my niche? And I had no, I didn't really have social media at that point a year ago or so. I thought it was stupid to be honest with you. I was a little ignorant in that aspect.

It's a Sunday night game. It still can be stupid, Dan. Yeah, it's stupid for the rest of us. Sure, sure. But it was a Sunday night game. It was the Carolina Panthers and the dolphins are playing late in the game. Miami decides all out zero blitz. Cam New and blitz everybody play man and man.

And Cam sees it before the snap and makes a check at the line of scrimmage to a wide receiver screen. End up being a touchdown. And I'm like, dude, that was super dope. And, you know, I'm listening to the broadcast and no one on the broadcast. and no one on the broadcast is kind of telling what happens. No one, why and how it happened. And I'm like, people need to know how cool that was. That camp saw it, communicated it, made it a numbers game, all that stuff.

So my wife was like, you should just make a video and put it on the internet. And immediately my reaction was like, well, that's dumb. And, you know, I came to my senses a couple minutes later and I was like, all right, I'm going to give it a try. So I mute the television. I just take my phone, put it up to the television in my living room, and I break the play down just using basically my finger pointing to the television. And I make this little two-minute video and I posted on

Instagram and Twitter. I went to bed, not thinking much of it. And it went viral. And I woke up with all these retweets and hits and comments of, dude, this is amazing, cool stuff. And in that moment, I was like, there it is. And breaking down tape, offensive schemes and quarterbacks and trying to get people to understand it.

And it opened up a lot of doors into radio and then open doors into auditions. And then it opened that, you know, that's how I, I ended up being, you know, choosing to go to ESPN. I'm glad because when this business has any sort of meritocracy to it whatsoever, it makes me happy. So seeing somebody that deserves it, hit it the way that you have is, it's encouraging in my mind. It also helps because I just feel like if every, if a lot of guys wanted to go that path, it's just going to make us all smarter. If there's, you know, if next year there's five or six ex-quarterbacks who are doing the same thing,

that's only going to help all of us. And so I think that's a cool path. I totally agree. It's amazing just how much information is out there is scrolling through Twitter, how much you can learn. And Dan, I want to talk about a specific play that you broke down after the Sunday night game. And I actually wrote about that play today,

not knowing you had talked about it. I was scrolling through your feet and saw it. And it's the throw that Mahomes had to Tyree Kill in the back right corner of the end zone. And I mean, obviously we see the physical talent and the guy is just unbelievably gifted and it's a special sort of ability he has to throw the ball. But I feel like the stuff that you've been most impressed with

you talked about this more than once, is what he's been able to do before the snap and what he's been able to do just from the mental side of it. So on that play, the way I described it is, it's almost like one of those LeBron cross-court left-handed passes to the corner

where it only works because he has the sense of the piece, like the sense of what's where guys are and the ability physically to get it there. But just walk me through that play and then just overall, what have you been impressed with from Mahomes in a between the ears kind of way? Yeah, I mean, I'll do the play first.

So it's really, the play is what we know is a three by O for the tight end on one side of the ball by himself. The three receivers are on the other side of the ball. So it's a trips looking type thing. The teams do that. I love when teams do it. They should do it almost every play because it tells your quarterback whether it's man or zone before the snap, depending on who's covering the tight end. If it's a linebacker or it's a safety, likely it's going to be man.

If a corner stays over there, you know it's zone. That makes it a lot easier for a quarterback to understand the coverage before the snap. So New England leaves a safety And they've really got the tight yard shallow cross Starting on the right side of the formation Coming all the way back across The Tyree Kill is the number three receivers So the guy kind of closest to the offensive tackle

And really his job is run as fast as you can To the far back pylon like you said And you know that he was not pressed But the guy on New England He wasn't pressed so you know Okay he's got a free run to the back pylon The only thing as a quarterback that I have to really be aware

since they're playing cover one, which is man, and then there's a safety in the middle of field, that safety's job, hey, read the quarterback's eyes, essentially. The only thing I need to be aware of as a quarterbacker, make sure that I know is that safety

doesn't just run with Tyree Kill and undercut or overcut the ball to the back pylon. So you see Mahomes catch the snap and he makes this deliberate almost too much in a way, like obnoxious stare, holds the free safety.

he actually gets the safety to move the opposite direction of Tyree Kill. And then he just comes back and goes to make this throw to Tyree Kill. And then I got really impressed because the defender actually does a nice job. He plays underneath Tyree Kill. So you could imagine Tyree Kill screaming to the back pylon, the defenders in between Tyree Kill and Patrick Mahomes, which is actually good coverage because you're making the quarterback make it more difficult throw because it has to go over the defender's head, but down in time to the back. pylon. And you

Mahomes just has, this is where I make this example all the time of there's a difference between making all the throws and making the appropriate throw. We get consumed with like, this guy can make all the throws. I don't even know what that beat. I honestly don't because there's 15 guys on

a roster who can make all throws, make the appropriate one. And so that was, this was a perfect example of making the appropriate throw. It looks like the you know, the McDonald's M in a way or the arch of St. Louis where the bell just goes up over the top and down underneath. Because if it's a firm ball,

if the ball tries to get driven, the defender's going to have a chance to break it up. And so that's the stuff that's been most impressive for me with Patrick Mahomes is super talent and no doubt, but like he's playing quarterback.

And there's a difference between being a thrower and playing quarterback. And he's playing quarterback with a mental game, understanding how to move people. I think it's a perfect example of the invaluable time he spent behind Alex Smith.

Because if you think about it, Alex Smith is the opposite of Patrick Mahomes. Not super talented. Not this remarkable arm talent. He's had to play at a really high level because of everything he does with pre-snap understanding and coverages in his eyes and moving people, timing, and all kinds of throws.

So I've been thoroughly impressed with the Holmes playing quarterback. And then that's the thing. I feel like a lot of people, as we have this Mahomes conversation going forward, about how you replicate this. One, you can't based on the talent alone. And two, you can't replicate the situation of having Andy Reed,

Matt Nagy, Alex Smith, I mean, all of those guys in this room is kind of like a brain trust to teach him this offense and teach him how to play in the NFL for an entire year. I mean, I think it's going to be a point in the column for people who argue

that quarterbacks could sit and you can get value out of it, but I think that that in and of itself is a unique situation that wouldn't be easy to just mimic elsewhere. Yeah, I mean, it's just, to be honest with you, it's a hats off kudos,

almost thank you moment to the organization, right? because the organization, to be honest, took a quarterback when they didn't need to. They took a guy higher than they needed to earlier than they needed to, but they had a plan. It's the same example of Aaron Rogers, right? I mean, you're taking this guy out. Do we really need them? No.

Can we get another couple of years? A guy like an Alex Smith or years ago like FAR? Yeah, we can. But man, we're having a long-term vision here. And that's what they've done with Patrick Mahomes. And so you took this incredibly talented. kid, you sat him behind a guy that that has had to really be good at the mental part

and the understanding part and the usage of your eyes part of playing quarterback, and now you put him with a head coach, who understands play calling, who understands rhythm, who understands detail and design, and then they've got weapons, right? So it's the perfect storm from the homes in a way. I totally agree. I mean, it's remarkable how it's all come together. I want to ask you about another young guy as well, and this is somebody you have some interesting perspective on, I believe, because you were in camp with them last year.

When coming into this season, what were your impressions or what was your opinion of where Jared Gough was as a quarterback? Coming into this 18 season or 17? Yeah, coming into this season, after watching the jump, obviously from year one to year two and just seeing him play relatively well in the league, did you feel like this guy is on the brink of superstardom? Or do you feel like he's somebody that could steer a very well- orchestrated ship in Sean McVe's offense? because I feel like I was like, I was in the latter camp. It was like, oh, you know, this guy's pretty good and he's in a really good situation.

But my opinion of him has changed so much this year, just based on some of the throws he's making. It just feels like he's made an even bigger leap from year two to year three than we would have expected him to. Yeah, I mean, Jared Goff is the perfect example of, and I say this as a compliment to him. We live in a generation,

especially where young kids fall in love with the way they look, and we fall in love with me. numbers. Man, this quarterback is 6 foot 5, 235 pounds. You run to 4.6. He bench presses 225, 25 times. Got a 38-inch vertical. Oh, cool. Can he play quarterback? You know, like, that's my question. And so we get so consumed with these numbers. And Jared golf is the opposite of that. I mean, he's a very physically unassuming when you look at him, guy. But he has this, he has a, he really is. He has a couple things. One, very natural throwing motion.

very natural. And for you, when you have that, it's not like you need it, but man, when you have that, you are just at such an advantage because when you're asked to make throws from

Jared golf is one of the funny body positioned. My feet aren't right. Throwers in our league right now. I mean, very accurate when his feet aren't in the perfect spot or he's on the move

or he's got to make this funny. I think of the one to Cooper Cup, where he scrambles up in the pocket against men. soda, and it's kind of like an in-between go-ball theme, and the ball is ridiculously accurate, and he's like his body looks like he's throwing the ball to the left sideline.

And it's an example of, like, this just natural throwing motion has afforded him this opportunity to make some really unique throws. His greatest strength, by far, he has no memory, no memory whatsoever in a good way. We're like, you can go through, I mean, if you watch their tape, he'll have two or three throws in a period we go, huh? That was weird. And then he has nine throws in a row. You go, holy smokes, dude. And so it's

a unique trait that no matter if he's playing really good or if he has a bad two series, and these guys, trust me, because I try to do it, I wasn't able to do it. These guys have no memory. And golf has just no memory. So, you know, in my opinion,

one that was, I feel like I know that I've been around guys like Peyton Manning and Matthew Stafford and I was with Matt Schaubb and he was light in the league on fire in Houston and I was with Jared. Jared is everything you want in the Los Angeles Rams starting quarterback to be a superstar in this league, a superstar because that's a unique market. Jared doesn't care what people think about him. He could care less. That's such an underrated value. It's such an underrated trait. And Matthew Stafford was fantastic at that as well. So now he's, he's every bit as advertised.

And certainly being in that system obviously helps, but I don't knock quarterbacks for being with a good coach. Yeah, I mean, neither. I feel like that's kind of the thing that I've been so impressed with. I mean, the throat of cooks in the same game, I wrote about it this morning. I mean, scheme helps a little bit there. The way that he kind of pulls the safety up with this deep end by cup turns into a track meet,

but it's still a 60-yard bomb put in like a one-by-one-foot box. I don't give a shit who the coach is. That's unbelievable. Five guys in the world can make that throw. And I just did not think of him in that way before this season. And I absolutely. Yeah, I mean, guys, there's been a lot of quarterbacks to go through the Mike Shanahan, the Gary Kubiak, the Sean McBay, the Kyle Shanahan systems, right?

I mean, there's been a lot of quarterbacks that have gone through those systems. Not everyone's been playing at the level like we see Jared golf playing at. So it's not just, oh, man, you could just plug and play anybody in there and it's going to be good. you know like it's Jared golf is a very very very good quarterback so I want to ask you about the rookies and just not each of them individually but just overall with that group what has jumped out to you the most either in a good or bad way that you've seen from those four guys yeah well I'll kind of go by I guess individually I mean Sam darnald has been so impressive by two things one Somehow, some way, he's taking a Jets team and scored 40 points twice in six games and 30.

Three times in six games. You know, like, what? With, with, and they don't have a ton of people around them, you know, and so, and there's some flaws on that team. And in every game, you can make the case once you watch the film that Sam Darnold's been one of the two or three best players in the field. I mean, he makes three or four throws a game when you, if you're being honest about it and not, you know, favorites or whatnot or buddies.

There's a handful of guys in the league that are making some of the throws that Sam Darnold has made this year. Every game, though. He's making three or four of them every game that are just ultra impressive. The traits have carried over from college to the NFL where it's like, you know, he doesn't need perfect feet to be very accurate, which matters in the NFL because

very few guys get perfect pocket. Just the ability, you know, everyone made a big deal about his throwing motion. It doesn't matter when the ball's coming out early and it's super accurate. So, you know, that has stood out. And then just he's got that, that unique kind of, I don't want to know if it's a characteristic, a trait, but just like when the ball's in his hands, you go, something cool is going to happen here.

You know, something cool is going to happen, whether it's athletically or, you know, types of throws or whatnot. So he's been very impressive with how he's handled everything. you know, Baker Mayfield has had some moments where you go, yep, now I understand why John Dorsey drafted on number one, right? I mean, as a quarterback, we're told as a young kid very often, hey, like, listen, when you go in the huddle, even if you don't even know what the play means, say it with confidence because everyone else is going to believe in it, right?

And that's Baker Mayfield to me. And I'm not saying he doesn't know what's going on. I'm saying when he walks in that huddle, everything he says is giving confidence to everybody. I mean, you can, you know, the team is more confident because it's Baker Mayfield. Not because they're better players, because it's Baker Mayfield. Do the most impressive thing for me with Baker right now are one, his body has caught up to his mind. I had anticipated he was going to be smart and understand coverage and where the ball was supposed to go, but usually it takes time for quarterback's bodies to match their mind, like, you know, to be one and the same.

Baker has done that, and that's been really cool. to see. Also, he's got NFL accuracy. I mean, ball placement is premier. And, you know, the question for me with Baker come out was, was he going to become obsessed with some of the traits that you need to overcome the height realities? You know, we've seen, we saw a dude two weeks ago break the passing yard's record because he's obsessed with his craft. What Baker has done in a short period of time has kind of lended me to think, yeah, this dude's obsessed with it because his ball placement's really, really good. So I've loved that. And he's going through his learning process like every kid. Josh Allen has played how I thought he would. I mean, Josh Allen's going to

struggle. I just firmly believe that. I don't care how big you are. If you could throw the ball 100 yards, great. The ball gets thrown like 20 yards four times in a game. So, you know, he's struggling right now to see coverage and he's struggling right now to understand pressures and have planned at the line of scrimmage. Now, the accuracy stuff that people talked about coming out of college, I didn't believe in, and I believe he's disproved that. I don't think the kids He's got accuracy issues. I really don't. He's made some really nice plays.

My concern would be this. He's had two games this year. We averaged more yards running the ball than throwing the ball. That's a concern to me. I don't think they have great players around him. So, you know, until he really gets to grasp with that mental game, I believe that, and having plans at the line of scrimmage for pressure, he's always going to struggle. And then Rosen's looked apart completely in control of the rhythm of the game.

They just stink. Arizona stink. Yeah, it's bad. Yeah, and I know what that's like, the plan of bad team. Would we be talking about Josh Rosen a lot more if Josh Rosen played for, you know, a different team, probably.

But Josh Rosen has, as both very much so, the part, it'll be the big, here's the biggest question mark the next two years around them. That's the only thing that is a question mark for me. I totally agree. I feel like looks the part is such an interesting thing

to say about him because this is such an aesthetic thing. for me. But that's how I feel about him. When I watch him play, it's like, that's what a quarterback is supposed to look like. And it's the smallest things. It's like how he gets his head around on play action or just how his feet move in the pocket. He had one throw down the left side line. It was play action throw to Kirk in the last game. And just everything about it, it's like, oh, yeah, that's an NFL quarterback. That's what he looks like. And I just feel like, you know, you're going to see what happens with Baker if Hugh gets fired, what the supports, you know, the situation is, the supporting cast, all that. And with Rosen, it's a similar thing.

Can they help him? And I feel like Baker is in a similar point right now where very quietly, the Browns receivers have been trash. I mean, they're dropping like 8.5% of their passes. I mean, there are balls he's thrown to Callaway and to Higgins. Other guys, it's their touchdowns. And I just think that that's the problem for the most part when you have these young guys is that they come into bad situations because they're drafted in the top time for the most part.

And they can, it's, there's a back and forth of what value is there and giving them the experience and what hindrance is there because you're putting them in a bad spot. And I think that's why when you have a guy like Mahomes and you can drop him into this death machine that the chiefs are, it just changes the entire game. And that's why I always have pause and how I'm going to put like a period or an exclamation point on whether these guys are good or bad. Because for the most part, they're in horrendous situations. And overcoming that is difficult no matter how good you are.

Hey, Dan, is there a coaching job that we're not talking about enough this year with, the young quarterback. We've talked so much about McVeigh. We've talked so much about Andy Reid, obviously. Is there someone who's making things easier for their quarterback that we don't talk enough about right now? You know, no, I'll be honest with you. I don't know if there's a great offensive mind in the NFL.

I'd argue that there's some coaches out there that are making it harder on guys. Yeah, there are plenty of people that are making it easier. You know, I've been impressed as what Jeremy Bates is, done with Sam Darnold, especially in the last two weeks, they decided to, like, push the ball down the field a little bit more, which I'd like. D. Flippo has been great in Minnesota. I mean, great in Minnesota, and that was a huge question mark coming in. Matt Nagy's been really good in Chicago, really, really creative.

The great thing about Nagy is he's figured out that his best player is Therick Cohen, and then he either uses Tariq Cohen or gets everybody to watch Tariq Cohen and then uses all the other guys, which has been really cool to watch. But no, I think there's a, you know, per every year, there's six or eight guys that do it really good. And then there's, just like there are teams, right? Then there's 12 to 14 who aren't very good. And then there's eight that, I don't know how that math works out. And then there's eight to ten that's what do you do?

It just feels like, I mean, you mentioned Bates and looking at it right now. And Donald's using play action on 26.4% of his dropbacks. And, you know, who's number one? It's obviously golf. Who is number two if you change the qualifier? It's Garoppolo. Do you feel like the move right now, if you're trying to get the most out of your quarterback,

is trying to find someone in that Shanahan-Cubiac system and just rely on play action and movement and everything else? Or do you feel like that's too simplistic a way to look at it? Well, it's certainly, I guess, is a way you could put it. I mean, because there's a lot of coaches who have tried to run that system, can't. You know, those guys, I always say to be really good at that position and essentially run a good unit,

you've got to have a guy who can call that team. And so just because, you know, oh, I know this scheme doesn't mean you're going to be good at calling it at the right moments with the right people utilizing the right, you know, spacing and, and so I don't know if it's necessarily, I don't believe that there's only one way to skin a cat. And it's got to be this way. We're seeing, we see multiple offenses that are super successful in the NFL right now. but certainly being one-dimensional isn't a great thing.

The great thing about a place like, you know, with Sean McVeigh or a place like Calloshanahan is, and even, you know, naggy a little bit is these places are getting defenses to fall in love with the stopping the run. You always hear coaches be like, oh, we've got to stop the run, we've got to stop the run. And all these coaches do are gash you with play action because they're like, oh yeah, you're just going to fall in love with the run, and I don't even need to be running it well. I just, you're so consumed with stopping the run that these play action passes are going to be gashes. So, you know, I believe that...

Minnesota is the perfect example. They're a bad running team, actively terrible, and they still destroy people with play action. It doesn't matter. Because people, because defensive coaches, I'm telling you, I've sat in so many meetings where the defensive coach will stand up a big, number one thing, we've got to stop the running. And I would always sit there and be like, isn't the number one thing to make sure they don't score point? Like, shouldn't that be the number one goal? And so how do we make them to not, how do we make sure they don't score point?

You know, like that's what the greatest example I ever saw was I was in Houston. And this is when Aaron Foster was rolling. And we were playing Payton in the cold. And I remember we ran for like 300 and something yards. I mean, it was an absolute gashing. And we held on for dear life. that game. And like the turn of the time of possession was like

42 to 17 something. We ran the ball up and down the field. And I was just sitting there going, huh. Like we just did everything you want to do on offense. And did everything a defense doesn't want to have happened to them. Yet we still won by like three. And that's because

it was like a last second. God, hang on for dear life because Peyton's got the ball thing. And so, you know, it's, it's coaches who understand, like, okay, coaches who have a great feel for how to attack certain teams, not just defense, but certain teams are the ones that are really good. And sometimes we saw it last week, right, with Sean McBay and the Rams against the Broncos. Dude, they gutted the Broncos running the ball in first down, which is a little bit contrary to what we've seen from McVeigh.

They've been a big play action team on first down. And so just these coaches that they've got great understanding for feel and players and what they're good at, what they're not good at, but then also what the other team is good at and not good at. Sometimes or so often coaches are like, you know what, we're just going to do what we do. And that's such as in the box thinking. Like, coach, what happens if what we do doesn't match up well against what they do? Like, can we try something different? But coaches sometimes become so married to what they do and what they know and what they've seen be successful that it hinders any kind of progress. I heard a really funny story yesterday from someone I was talking to.

And we're talking about Andy Reid just in terms of like how innovative he is is a 60-year-old coach, a guy who's been around forever. And this coach was describing to me the way that it used to work in Green Bay when he had, when Mike Holmgren out of all those young coaches. And Gruden would see something either in college or something. somewhere else and you'd come to Holmgren to be like, God, look at this. Isn't this cool? And Holmgren would say, I don't know that play. I don't know that play. So when you get your own offense, you can run that play.

And it just feels like I'm not trying to bash Mike Holmgren here. Mike Holmgren was a very successful coach. But that's the way the old guard too often thinks. And that's what makes Andy Reid so special is that he's as entrenched a member of the old guard as you could possibly have in the league. But his thought process is the exact inverse of that. And I just feel like there just isn't enough of that around the NFL. Yeah.

And I would say this. And it's been really interesting to watch kind of maybe over the last 18 months is, I actually, Peter King asked me about this the other day. And, you know, one of the things that I believe is going on in the NFL right now, and this is perfect off your story is, you know, 10 years ago in the NFL, even maybe six or seven years ago in the NFL, every coach has got 10, 12, 14 of what we would call gadget or gimmick plays, right? that they've got that are unique.

You know, we're going to have this kind of funny motion or this kind of play action pass or we're going to try to do this different stuff. And every coach's thing would be like, you know what, guys, if it's the perfect time, we'll call it. If we're up 17 in the fourth quarter

with six minutes to go and we're trying to bury it, that's when I'll call it. You know, because I don't want to wait. I don't want to call this play to not work and then we're behind the chains or, you know, almost like a fear for failure, right? And I really believe what we're seeing

with some of these more creative, creative coaches, more willing coaches, Doug Peterson, Sean McBays, Matt Nagy, Kyle Shanahan, Josh McDaniels is, these coaches are taking what used to be gimmick or gadget plays and just calling them as part of their offense nowadays.

And we're starting to see, you know, the Cooper Cup touchdown on Anthony Barr is the perfect example, or the Tariq Cohen angle route out of a unique motion and formation or how some of the stuff that the Texans do with unique motions pre-snap with the Sean Watson,

We're watching these gimmick plays from years ago become fundamental part of NFL offenses and coaches aren't scared to call them anymore. I don't know the exact reason why they're not scared to call them anymore. I think that they're going like, wait, some of these teams are having some success with some of these really cool looking plays. Why don't we do it? And so I do believe that, or at least I hope that we're going to see a trend to some of these coaches starting to call these really cool, designed to play. Awesome. Dan, that's all the time we got. I could do this for another half hour or an hour, but we got to go.

I sincerely appreciate you coming on to do this. We were so excited at the prospect of it, and you did not disappoint. So thank you so much for your time, man. I appreciate your kind words, fellas. I appreciate it. It was a lot of fun. We'll do it again. Thank you.

Sounds good, Dan. Thanks. We're going to get back to our regularly schedule programming, and that means it's time for take shop. Kevin, what is your take that you're still working on? You're still ruminating on a little bit, but you're not quite there yet with. Okay. So I'm going to throw this out there.

We're not talking about it enough. The Buffalo Bills have two wins. It's amazing. They have the third three. Almost three. Almost three. Almost three. They have beaten the Minnesota Vikings who look pretty good.

They've destroyed. They've defeated the Tennessee Titans who we're not talking about. I can't believe you mentioned their name. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. They have defeated them. They beat a team.

They beat a team. They lost by 44 to the Ravens, who were apparently good. And as you alluded to, they were within one score of the Texans. And they got that Peterman. I mean, that's just they outplayed the Texans in that game. And they got Peter. Right. Sure.

So they've got two wins with the third best defense in the NFL and the second worst offense on record. It's amazing. The only, according to football outsiders, the only worst offense is 2004 Dolphins. team that started one and nine and then was able to win some of those garbage December games to get to four wins. This is a long way of saying that folks, Sean McDermott might be a good coach. Here's what I thought about it.

Two wins and at least competitive against other teams with the roster that we don't think we thought was just a total tear down. Okay. I agree with you and I don't. One, Sean McDermott's still the guy making these ridiculous quarterback decisions. So I'm not going good coach. Let's not, okay. But from a 2018 perspective, what is the best thing he could have done?

Start Josh Allen immediately? Yes. Why not? I mean, he's hurt now. But yeah, sure. But just from the beginning, put him in the game. Who gives a shit? I agree.

It seems like the Nathan Peterman experiment has run its course. Derek Anderson is starting this week. So that's that. But I feel like overall, to be in the games they've been in, to win the games they've been. And I know that Minnesota game, we're all agreeing, never happened. But I kind of feel,

I kind of feel like it's an impressive coaching job from Sean McDermott. Here's why I think I agree with you. Outside of the quarterback stuff, and those just baffling decisions, when you watch their defense, that is a well-coached defense. Those guys play their asses off.

They've been destroying people. I mean, Lorenzo Alexander and Jerry Hughes have been really, really good this year. And they have a very good secondary that was just kind of all over the place against the Ravens in a way that I didn't understand. But outside of that, they played well. I mean, that unit is very well orchestrated and designed.

And I think that's why I would tend to agree with you, even I think the quarterback stuff is almost a disqualifying factor. Yeah, I mean, listen, benching Tyrod Taylor for no reason and starting Nathan Peterman last year is pretty unforgivable. It was really bad. But from a 2018 perspective, I think he's not playing it disastrously. All right, are you ready for mine?

Okay, so let's let's back up to this. Let's back up. You've really, really wanted to unleash his take in the world. We've alluded to it many times over the past couple weeks. It just hasn't worked out. You came up with it. I was the bumped guest. You came up with it in when we were together in a, in the sort of middle of our studio area.

Green room, yeah. And you were, you were. you were looking at draft prospects and you just something was just sticking in your crawl and you just unleashed this take on me and Craig our producer and you've been obsessed with it ever since. Okay. So this started when we were discussing Justin Herbert, right? The perspective number one pick in the draft, whatever.

And I was reading up on Justin Herbert because at that point I had not seen him play football because I don't watch much college football. I watched him last week almost solely because I wanted this to be more informed. Justin Herbert is 6 foot 6. And here is my take shot. Tall quarterbacks are bad. You can be too tall to play quarterback. And I feel like 6 foot 6 is the cutoff.

I want to read this to you. And this list is very important. And it is the crux of my take here. From 1999 through 2018, which is the data available on mock draftable.com, I would like to read to you the quarterbacks that measured above 6 foot 5 at the combine. Are you ready?

Mm-hmm. Paxton Lynch, Mike Glennon, Brock Osweiler, Ryan Mallet, Joe Flacco, Tony Pike, Sean Mannion, Derek Anderson, John Skelton, Nate Sudfeld, Josh Freeman, Byron Lefwich, Tyler Bray, Eric Aange, John Navarre, Jamarcus Russell, Matt Schaub, Jordan Palmer. That is the end of the list. Who is the best quarterback on that list? Joe Flacco. Joe Flacco or Byron Lefich, maybe? Sure. I mean, it's a terrible list. So did Nick Foles not go to the combine? Nick Foles measured 6 foot 5 at the combine. He's listed at 6 foot 6. He may have been a, he may have grown like one of those NBA guys.

Like Paul George. He's the honest of the NBA. Yeah, yeah. Mick Foles is the honest of the NFL. The NFL, absolutely. So I feel like, and you can be sort of tall. 6 foot 5 is the sweet spot. I mean, 6 foot 5, you got guys like Cam and Armandane Arlofski's on there.

Carson Wentz is 6 foot 5. Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan. I mean, you can be six foot five. Ben Routtsburgh. Tom Brady, six foot five,

Eli, Blake Bordels. Got Blake Bortals there. But here's the thing. Six foot six and over? Too tall. Can't do it. So,

too tall. So let's, let's unpack this. I don't stop me if I interrogate your take too much because I don't. Yeah, you're really going against the,

you know, the spirit of take shot. Yeah, I know, I know, but I'm just, I just want to, why would,

why would, why would, would, would, height be a deterrent here? I don't know. Just like functionality in terms of your physiology. I don't know.

I'm not a doctor. You know, this is not something I've ever studied in terms of how the few of body works. If we did ask a doctor, if you can be too tall to play a quarterback, what do you think would happen? I feel like we'd have to ask the right doctor. It'd be like, you know, stacking the witness stand in the right scenario. I don't know. What kind of doctor is equipped to answer that question?

I'm not really sure. It would be a doctor that we, you know, it would be a mob doctor. It'd be somebody that works out of the back of a shop somewhere. A quack doctor, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Which is fine. I don't mind if it's a quack doctor. I just want someone with an MD to back me up here.

Okay, we'll work on that. This is all to say that Drew Locke should be the number one quarterback taken in this year's draft, not Justin Herbert. Too tall. Great. Where is Drewlock projected right now? I don't know. All that shit is so dumb. Like, who cares?

Was Jared Goff and Carson Wentz the number one and number two picks in the draft in October? No. all this stuff is dumb. I mean, let's say the Giants get the number one pick and let's say Oakland gets the number two pick and they want to move on from Carr, a quarterback should go in one, too. It's so silly. I mean, every year, and like that's what I was talking about. I tweeted this about the Falcons earlier this week and about how, you know, if you're the

Falcons, you get the fourth overall pick. It's a good situation now because think about what Joey Bosa went third. Joey Bosa was the best player. But teams go up and get quarterbacks. Jaylon Ransu. Yes. I mean, this is what's. happened. In this situation, in this era, for the most part, teams are willing to be aggressive and go get them.

And I know the Trubisky-Watson year is different, but for the most part, you're going to get guys moving up. This year, perfect example. Baker goes number one, the Jets move up to number three. I mean, and the Giants probably should have taken a quarterback at two. So I don't care what those guys are being projected or mocked or wherever at this point. I feel like somebody's probably going to go number one or number two overall. You know, it's interesting, you mentioned the Wendst thing and the projection of it. talked to Hyraussman a couple years ago about this. And he was talking about how much everything has changed the last couple of years with drafting because of the availability of, you know, more videotape and all that stuff and

stuff that wasn't available 10 years ago. And he was saying that there's a case to be made that maybe if Carson Wentz were born in 1980 and not 1990, that he would have been more of a secret because, you know, he was up there in North Dakota. And it was just things changed so fast. And all of a sudden Carson Went was on TV. And did they go to game day? some point with Carson Wednesday?

Did that happen or is that a false memory of mine? I think he might not have not been playing when they did that. Remember because he was hurt that? They had a lot of national hype is what I'm saying. Yes. And it just shows you, like three national championships in a row. Yeah. And it just sort of shows you, you know, I keep saying the football world is flat.

That what North Dakota State was not getting any hype in, you know, even if they were that good 10, 15 years ago. And I just think it's interesting now how many guys can rise as prospects from maybe non-traditional backgrounds. I totally agree. All right, let's get into the three biggest games of the week. Let's start with an offense defense matchup that I think is very interesting. And that is the New Orleans Saints traveling to Baltimore.

This is a great one. I mean, we can talk about the Ravens offense and against the Saints defense if you want to, but I don't want to. I mean, I just feel like this New Orleans team going on the road where they've been a little worse in recent years. I mean, just think about how much they kind of sputtered at times through the air against even the Giants. And you have Baltimore, who's arguably the best past defense in the year. NFL. I feel like the element of this I'm most interested in watching is what they do with Michael Thomas because for the most part, Baltimore secondary is excellent. Brandon Carr has had a little bit of a resurgence on one corner. Marlon Humphrey is a star at the other spot. But Tavon Young

in their slot corner is their weak link, maybe as a defense overall. And I just feel like they're going to try to hammer Michael Thomas in the slot this entire game. Sure. So let's take a step back. So the Ravens defense is allowing 12.8 points per game. Yeah, man. No one else is holding teams under 17 points. Yeah, thank you, Bears. I mean, it's pretty damn impressive. And they broke the Tennessee Titans last week.

Yeah. They have not, did you? You said their name again. I didn't know this. They have established a modern record. ESPN had this. They have not given up a second half touchdown in the first six games of the season.

The only other team to do so was the 1934 Lions who dominated the Boston Redskins, the Brooklyn Dodgers, the Cincinnati Reds, and the St. Louis Gunners 84 years ago from ESPN. In 1934,

were all the baseball teams, they just double as football teams? Yeah, and that's why the 1934 Lions were able to hold these guys scoreless in the second half. Because they're playing against baseball players. Yeah,

they're just playing against Peewee Reese. they've been so good, man. That's a fascinating matchup. And again, I'm going to see how they use Thomas, see how they use Kamara. Yeah. I mean, the Ravens are so sound, but I still feel like you can get at their linebackers with the way that use your running backs. I mean, it's not weird take to say that Alvin Kamara and Michael Thomas are going to be important. But, I mean, that's just where I am with this.

I think that those two guys are going to be hugely important. But the Ravens have been really good against running backs. third in DVOA against running backs through the passing game, 18.9 yards a game, which leads the league. So if they can't get Kamara going and they managed to not get Thomas in the slot often enough, I mean, I feel like this is a game

where Breeze could be completely blanketed. Yeah, I mean, I can't run the ball against Baltimore. That's not an option either. That's the problem. I'm intrigued by this because I know it's simplistic to say, but there's a couple things. Number one, I want to see how good this Ravens defense can be in the modern era, against a team like New Orleans.

I know that that's very sports radio talk. These guys got to prove it. But it's just so hard. They got beat by the Bengals. It's the one real team they played against. Right. And so I'm saying so now they're going up against, when you go by passing yards, yards per game,

and sacks and points, the Saints are top three in offense in all of those categories, and the Ravens are top three in defense. And so I'm just really excited. to see everything that comes along with that on Sunday. And I think that this is one of those matchups where the winner is going to get hyped up way more than it should.

And I will be stoking the flames of that hype. I totally agree. I also forgot that the Ravens beat the Steelers when the Steelers were in their swoon. But that's worth mentioning. Okay, let's get to our next one. I guess we have to do this because it's a good game. The New England Patriots traveled to Chicago

to play my Bears on Sunday after last week's just heartbreaking collapse in Miami. me. What are you watching in this game? I'll ask you. Hey, did you watch the Bill Belichick breakdown today? He had a very No, I did not watch that yet. I will do that after we're done with this show. Do you do know what I'm talking about though, right? He did

love video thing. So... No. Okay. So he did one of those like Telestrator. He just like went over the plays against Kansas City and it was pretty illuminating. And one of the things I think... Where is this? On their website? Yeah. With Zolak. What is the thing is interesting is when he puts those out, he tends to

he tends to highlight things that I think that he doesn't think a lot of people are talking about, right? Sure. So, like, I remember a couple years ago, he was just obsessed with illustrating Gronks blocking because one of the things he's always talked about is that gronk doesn't get enough credit as a blocker, which I agree with. You know, I think that there's a, I remember Kellan Winslow Sr. said this, and I think about it all the time, that if you have, if you can catch the ball as a tight end,

you're automatically labeled a finesse guy. Only because just defenders just want to be able to say that, right? Like, oh, this guy, he's not the turtle fact because he's a finesse guy. And I sort of feel like with Rob Winkowski, even though we have mountains of evidence that he's really a physical guy, we do not give him enough credit as a physical player. But that's aside from that. So he really highlighted in this particular video, the run game. He didn't, you know, Sony Michelle, who now I think is second in the league the last two weeks in rushing yards. Yeah, they're just going to hammer him.

The run blocking when you watch this video is a finely tuned machine. It's really good. And I just feel like there's a real opportunity for the New England Patriots now to be a two-dimensional team. And I think that's really, you know, Bill Belichick is a million times said, I don't care about running the ball. I care about winning the game. I don't care about balance. Kind of the Mike Leach thing. He does not care about 50-50 balance.

And he was one of the first guys to do that. I mean, this is a guy who doesn't care about norms. He's the first coach in history to run a majority shotgun offense 11 years ago, okay? And so I think that's a new dimension that could come with his offense. And that's sort of what really excites me, especially against his defense. What in, you know, having watched his teams are closely. So first of all, Clow Mac, day to day with an ankle injury. Are you worried about that?

Yeah, I'm worried about it. Okay. So the reason that I'm worried about it is not that I think he's going to miss time, anything like that. I'm just concerned that he's going to be 75% of himself for the entire season now. So do you think there's a way, when you think about this New England team against this Bears defense, you are worried about what part of the game? The running backs against the Bears linebackers. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to.

That's the reason I brought it up. I feel like if you're looking at this Bears team, it's very similar to the way that the Patriots tried to attack the Texans defense in week one. The Bears are better. I think that the bears are better overall. I mean, top to bottom, this is one of the best defenses in football, even with what happened last week. But what the New England did against that Texans team is they essentially said,

okay, Zach Cunningham, you're mine. If Amukamara doesn't play, then I feel like maybe you get that second element of going after a backup corner. I mean, they did that with James White against Kevin Johnson. So I feel like that's what Belichita, they're going to hone in on.

That's what they do. And Roquan still has a little bit of a ways to go. Trevathan has been up and down this year. I think he's a little bit dinged up. And then going after whoever that backup corner is, I can't remember his name. If Amukamara does not play, that's embarrassing. But that's the issue.

And that's really the only thing I'm worried about in regard to that. I'm curious to see what the bears try to do up front. You know, you don't blitz Brady. The bears are blitzing on 16% of their downs. One of the lowest rates in the league. I think they have the recipe in the same way we've seen from other teams over the years. One of the things that Texans did extremely well over the last couple seasons is using their pass rushers in unique areas and stunting.

So if Mac isn't 100%, I feel like one of the ways you can still take advantage of him is by having him be the decoy of sorts in a stunt. So you slant inside, Hicks coves over the top. Or you try to get him either slamming in between two guys to get double teams and you get a one-on-one matchup on that side. So what he does in terms of the attention that he takes away is really interesting to me. And maybe, you know, if you're the Patriots, you just think Marcus Cannon can take him away. And I don't know the answer to that. And we'll see if he's 100%.

I don't think he can. Can him has practiced today. so he may not play. So if that happens, then, you know, I'm very happy about the Lerate, I can never have to say his name, the La Adrian Waddle situation over there. And I think that I like Mac in that matchup,

even if he's a little bit banged up. So we'll see. I like how this defense matches up with New England, but I do think there are little tiny cracks that you can take advantage of. On the other side of the ball, I'm very curious to see what he's going to do to Trubesky. I think he's going to do a very good job

on Mitch Trubisky. I agree. Yeah. I mean, just what their approach is. Yeah, I mean, look, so first of all, they just came off a 43-40 shootout against the Kansas Chiefs, and this will be a very different game than that.

When you think about what Belichick can do to take away Trubisky's weapons, what's the first thing you worry about? Sorry about the little mix up here, guys. This is a new recorder that I'm using, and apparently it does not charge in the same amount of the one does. So it ran out of batteries. So this is the audio from Google Hangout.

But, you know, with what Cohen can, how they're going to attack your biscuit, I'm very interested in. And I went back and watched the game against the dolphins. And, you know, obviously the pick in the end zone is horrendous. And then he missed Miller on a throw. And then he had one that I tweeted out that nearly killed me. So he'd throw back across his body into three people to Cohen down the field. But for the most part, I mean, those are the only three throws where I sat there and was like, yeah, this is a problem. Like, this is really bad.

I am very happy with the kind of the strides he's made. I just feel like Belichick is really going to make him make decisions, and that's a concern to me. I have some bad news, Robert. If the number one worry of your quarterback is that he might have to make decisions, you might not have a good quarterback. Here's what I mean by that. I think that he's going to not be able to just pull the trigger back. Oh, I know what you mean. I know what you mean, buddy.

I do want to say really quickly about the Belichick video stuff, which I find fascinating. the best ever Belichick breakdown video because you can tell who he hates and who he doesn't from the videos is after the Jonas Gray game, remember that shit? He kept referring and he was talking about the blocking schemes the whole time

just to own Jonas Gray and then he never named him the entire time and just called him the running back. And then Joe's Gray was caught like two weeks later which isn't surprising. I think he missed an alarm or something but he did this entire video about how great the blocking was and never mentioned

the running back by name and I was like Is there a chance that Bill Belichick never knew Jones Gray's name? I think they I think that he probably knew who he was only because he probably just over scouted him when he played for the dolphins. Yeah, he didn't know who he was when he was there. I just told the story before but it's about Tom Brady.

I remember we're talking to, I think it was Brandon Lafell, I think. And I was like, what's doing to Tom Brady and any other quarterback? And he's like, all right, I've been on a couple of teams And the thing nobody understands is sometimes the quarterback just doesn't know who other guys are. And Tom Brady knows everybody on the team's name. And that's quietly, like, impressive when you know other quarterbacks. Yeah, I don't know everyone who works for the ringer, let alone like that.

Well, if you were, if everybody were in a room, of all of our employees were in the same room every day, you might. Maybe. Maybe. If I were there all the time, but I'm not. So it's just funny to me that, like, Brady's that type of guy. Because even as I'm like turning 31, I'm not that kind of guy. He's a 40-year-old Hall of Fame quarterback. And he, like, knows who Trey Flowers is and we're all just blown away.

Right. He has name. So that's my problem. All right, very quickly, let's get to Bengals, Chiefs. This is a fun game. I haven't looked at what the over-under is, but I assume it is a lot. I mean, there are going to be a ton of points in this game. So C-Pelzo tweeted this.

out, I thought it was very fascinating. Against Zone Concepts, Patrick Mahomes is number one in the league. And against Man Concepts, he's 25th in the league, which I find extremely interesting, especially when I understand that he hasn't been flawless the last two weeks, but he looks pretty damn unstoppable. And the idea that he's 25th in the league in anything is a bit of a shock to me. Yeah, that's, I mean, I guess I can understand that. With Man, if it's tight, you're taking away early options in the down.

You're having him process a little bit more because he can't go necessarily to his first read. It's not shocking to me, but that discrepancy is still pretty remarkable. Yeah, very, very, very remarkable. So I'm excited to see, you know, one of the things that has gone under the radar because he's gone under the radar because he doesn't speak to the media and he plays in Cincinnati. That defensive line led by Gino Adkins, I mean, they just took, oh, I've never really seen an interior rusher like that win a game for. in the last couple of years in the same way Geneo Atkins did against Miami. He has been an absolute force in some of these games this year.

He was against the Steelers. He didn't have a sack before that. He had three sacks in two weeks. I'm intrigued to see that defensive line against Patrick Mahomes and see what they can't do as far as disruption. Well, that's the problem is that I think against teams that have good pass protection. This Bengals defense is really going to struggle

because their secondary leaves a lot to be desired. And that's what happened with the Steelers. I mean, the Steelers are the best. past protecting line in the league, and they got no pressure. I believe they hit Matt or hit Ben Rathusberger one time. He was not sacked. And Rathesberger has a decent day. So I'm worried that it's going to be another huge day from Holmes.

But being said, this Cincinnati offense has been very good. And I believe they're going to be able to move the ball however they want. The overrunner in this game is 58 and half. Like, I mean, this is the world of the chiefs. This is what is going to happen week in and week out. Gina Adkins' most recent tweet is an endorsement for an electric toothbrush. He talked to the media once this year. It was a big deal.

Well, he didn't talk to them for years. I know. He still doesn't, but he talked to them one time. There's a lot. I don't want to blow anybody's spot here. There's a lot of secret Marshawn Lynches around the league. And no, they don't rise to the level of Marshawn Lynch because they don't play for either marquee teams or the team doesn't make the, you know, conference championship or the Super Bowl.

So a lot of guys who just bail on the media and no one ever talks about it. And he, uh, Gino Adkins went a couple of years without. speaking to the media. I think you went three years without ever speaking. Life goals, right? That's one of those things when you're in a locker room. We never been in before. It's like, oh, yeah, I wonder if I could talk to this guy. It's like, oh, he just doesn't talk to anyone. It's like, oh, okay, that's kids to know.

That happened to Michael Crabtree with me. I was like, I'm going to go talk to Michael Crabtree. That's a perfect example. That happened to me as well. So, trust me, we're in the same boat. So let's do a quick pick for Thursday night. It's Brockose and Cardinals. Oh, my God. Here's what I'll say.

I have two reasons I'm interested in this game. One, the last two teams that played against Denver ran for like 600 total yards. And I have David Johnson in fantasy and I need to watch. Two, I'm interested in Josh Rosen. That's it. There's the end of list in terms of why I give a shit about this game. Yeah, I don't have a list. I'm sorry.

I think that the Denver Broncos are going to win. That sounds great. I do not care about the outcome whatsoever. I guess I have the hurdles in the rear wins league. I have not seen updated standings on that. I don't know. I'm not sure what it is. either. I was doing pretty well until the Bears

blew that game to Miami. I think I'm doing pretty well because I have Miami in Houston and New England, all of whom have been coming on lately. I have the Rams, so that helps. It sure does. All right, that's all we got for this week. We'll be back on Sunday night, as we always are.

Really appreciate you guys listening to the Raylan NFL show on the Rangor podcast.