The Ringer NFL Show - Deshaun Watson, the Mac-pocalypse, and Trevor Lawrence to the Jags

Episode Date: March 30, 2021

Kevin and Nora start by talking about what we know so far about the Deshaun Watson lawsuits and discussing the 'Sports Illustrated' piece by Jenny Vrentas detailing one woman's experience with Watson (0:50). Then they discuss the rise of Mac Jones (14:36), Urban Meyer saying picking Trevor Lawrence is “the direction we're going," and more (33:12). Hosts: Kevin Clark and Nora Princiotti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bill Simmons hosts the most downloaded sports podcast of all time with a rotating crew of celebrities, athletes, media staples, and a slew of other friends and family members who always happen to be available. Check out the Bill Simmons podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It is the ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark, joined by Norrinciotti, Nora. What's going on, buddy? Not much, Kevin. I'm just hanging out here on a Tuesday. Happy to be potting with you. So, big show today. We're going to get to the Mac Jones Apocalypse, the Mac Apocalypse. workshopping that one. Macpocalypse. Macpocalypse.

What the last week of activity says about different teams in the draft, Nora has some heating problems we discussed. We got very loud at one point, but we will start with the Deshawn Watson case, which is one of the biggest stories in the sport, full stop.

It took a turn on Monday when Sports Illustrated had additional details. If you're unfamiliar, Deshawn Watson is facing 19 lawsuits. for sexualizing massages. Each lawsuit alleges some type of sexual assault or sexual misconduct during massage sessions. Three new civil cases were filed on Sunday night, all of these with a Texas State Court.

On Monday, Jenny Varentis, Sports Illustrated, talked to Mary, who is obviously a pseudonym, who is the first accuser who is not represented by lawyer Tony Busby, who is the lawyer for the other lawsuits. Mary contends the Watson engaged in behavior that was both inappropriate and, unlike any other interaction she's had with any of her more than 1,000 clients, including other professional athletes in her several years working as a massage therapist. Ferrentice corroborated Mary's version of events by interviewing family members and reviewing text messages and social media messages. Nora, this is obviously a complex case.

There's a lot to unpack. Where do you start? Well, I think Jenny's reporting is really significant because, like you said, Mary, and that's not the woman's real name, was the first. first person who wasn't involved in a lawsuit against Watson, but was bringing this up. And in Jenny's piece, she wrote that Sports Illustrated reached out to Mary. It's not clear exactly how that came to be why she was someone that they chose to contact, whether that was just looking on social media and finding people who could, you know,

speak to that industry in the area. she had her own business. But she is not involved in a lawsuit. She said that she had contacted Tony Busby, but felt like she was getting pressured into signing a contract and wasn't interested in doing that. But her purpose in speaking to Sports Illustrated was to corroborate that she'd experienced similarly patterned behavior when Watson had been a client of hers. And that is ultimately what the value of her coming forward is because right now we're dealing with a lot of murkiness in terms of what's going on with the lawsuit. Who knows what the lawyer for Watson has said that they have evidence that one of the lawsuits is false. and they think it calls into question the rest of them.

They have not shown what that is to my knowledge at this point. But there's just a lot going on with that side of things. But with Mary, all she wanted to do was corroborate a pattern of behavior. So it does really, it adds a data point to what we're talking about that just doesn't have to do with all the stuff that's going on in the legal system right now. NFL says the matter is under review with League's personal conduct policy. Nick Asario, the general manager of the Texans on Tuesday, said the allegation, quote, the allegations, what's being discussed are certainly troubling.

He said obviously legal process, so they're letting it play out. A couple of things here. Obviously, Rusty Harden, the lawyer for Deshaun Watson, has denied. these allegations throughout when he was reached when jenny reached out to him earlier this week he said we're not in any position to comment in any way right now on another anonymous story or complaint i just think it's unfair to ask us to um so one of the reasons you know you mentioned this is another data point um one of the reasons is a complicated story nora is because this is all been in civil court um not there is no no charges have been filed obviously um it's unclear now the level of

investigation the Houston Police Department is even doing, how much has been turned over. That's been one of those things that has been a little bit murky. Tony Busby said one thing. The Houston Police Department has said another. So it's been kind of a holding pattern as far as that goes. And that the people who are close to this as far as reporting it have said that the way that this has progressed is is unusual as far as just the timeline of it. That's why it's a harder story to sort of put your finger on the pulse of. But as you said, the Monday's allegations in Jenny's reporting changes, changes the narrative a little bit. One thing to kind of make clear here is that something we talked about last week as well is that

the NFL doesn't need criminal charges in order to make a ruling on anything. Obviously, this is not a football story right now. But from a football context, Ben Rathesberger is a good example of someone where there was no criminal charges filed. It was just in civil court and there was suspension. We talked about Ezekiel Elliott last week, which we talked about, Ezekielder, which was a different deal, but kind of the same outcome as far as that goes. When Rathusberger, pro football talk dug this up, when Rathsburger was suspended, Goodell in his letter said, I recognize

the allegations in Georgia were disputed and they did not result in criminal charges being filed against you. My decision today is not based on finding that you violated Georgia law or a conclusion that differs from that of a local prosecutor. So that's separate. When Roger Goodell took on what amounts to full personnel power, he has this in his arsenal to say, okay, even if this doesn't progress beyond this. We can suspend you for six games or face discipline. But this is, again, a complicated football story. You know, Joel Corey, who's great on contract, said that a personal conduct policy suspension is in the laundry list of defaults in Deshaun Watson's contract that would void his salary guarantees. Again, this is so, his future is so complicated that it's almost not even

worth going down that path, but it's just another data point to have. It's what you said there about this is not really just a football story anymore is important because we want to be extra sensitive to the fact that no matter how this stuff goes down, look, everybody, Deshawn Watson is a celebrity. He's a public figure. And those are the people who get centered in conversations, right? And we're also talking about something here where there are allegations that there are real victims in this.

And it's unfortunate that usually how this stuff goes down. those people are never really centered in the conversation. And we're going to try to not do that as we talk about this. But we can also acknowledge, look, Deshaun Watson was already the number one story of the NFL offseason before we knew about any of this. And that's just true, right? Because the Houston Chronicle reported that the Texans were pretty much planning on trading him before the draft, that that was the most logical thing for them to do.

That is completely on hold. And it should be. but we can't ignore that from San Francisco to Carolina to maybe someone like Denver or Chicago or Miami, there's a whole host of teams whose plans have in some way changed or changed via domino effect because of this. So, and that's, you know, that's how it goes. And that's how it should go as people try to figure it. out what's what's the way to handle this and what actually happened here. But the implications

for other teams in the league are really significant. And we can't ignore that either. It is significant. And it changes the fortunes of a handful of teams. I think that it's interesting, you mentioned the report from the Houston Chronicle. And so the report there was basically the after the Zoom meeting between David Cooley and the Sean Watson that the Texans realized they had to trade him. This was a handful of weeks. weeks ago, that everything on the football side is on hold. Everything. And one thing I found strange is the amount of people who've tried to report this through the prism of football, whether that's, you know, I saw when when this first came down, there was the Instagram post

from Tony Busby initially in the first lawsuits. And there were a handful of either Twitter people or bloggers or NFL reporters who were just like, you know, I talked to three of his teammates and they said it's uncharacteristic of him or whatever. And that I can't emphasize how much that just does not matter in this context. I've never... Again, like, that's to the point that I was making about famous people are always centered in these conversations. And that's why that's sort of destructive because it's not, it doesn't, there's nothing that we should say is additionally bad against Deshaun Watson if people aren't saying those things about him. But it also just really shouldn't. It just doesn't matter.

It does not matter. Because one, you don't, you don't know people the way that you think that you do. If they're public figures, you just don't. And then the other thing is that because these massage therapists who are raising these concerns and making these allegations and filing these lawsuits, because we don't see them on television, there's no one who's going to reach out to their friends and family necessarily and say, hey, why don't you, you know, what do you think? Do you think that this is a good person. Do you think, like, that's just not going to happen because that's not the sports celebrity industrial complex? And so that's, besides it just being sort of irrelevant, that's why that stuff is really, really, really tricky territory because the other,

the other people involved are not going to get that same treatment. So, I mean, it's, as you said, so much of this doesn't matter. I've never interviewed Deshawn Watson. I've been around him a handful of times, but I've never had a conversation with him. And even if I had, even if I had, and this is the big thing about reporting this story from a football perspective, even if I'd spent hours with him or days with him, that doesn't make me any more qualified, doesn't make anybody any more qualified to be able to discuss this situation about whether or not he's likely or unlikely to have done anything. And so I'm a huge, huge fan of waiting for all the facts to come out on every single side on on on all sides of the on the angles here um you know jenny had a quote from

from mary uh that said she wants a genuine apology and there are so many people i thought this is an inter quote there are so many people they're against us saying why would you do that he has no reason to do that he has a beautiful girlfriend he has this this and this all of those things are true but fame doesn't create character um so i i just think that there's there's a lot to consider here um again none of us know uh the the context of the character i've I've seen players come out and say, defend him. And I just, I understand the impulse to do that. I'm just saying that reading the two leaves in any direction here is probably misguided.

And I think we should just wait for all sides, every angle of all the facts to come out to rush to judgment and to levy a judgment and to sort of see where this is the story is going. Right now, it is as complicated a story as I can remember in the modern NFL, especially my time covering it. We wanted to cover it because it's important, but we are. far, far, far removed from any judgment call here. And given all of that and all of the different angles that need to be thoroughly explored before any kind of resolution gets reached, and that includes with what the NFL is going to do, what the Texans are going to do, what other teams are going to do, what law enforcement is going to do, how the suits play out, all of that.

There's a significant likelihood that this is not getting resolved before the draft, right? So the tail of this is going to, football-wise, was going to be long. Because you can even think about, you know, the 49ers go up to three, right? Would they have needed to give up three first-round picks if they weren't sensing a quarterback market that was growing increasingly competitive in the draft? You know, I don't know. And it's not what we're speculating on. But you're starting to get in a situation where there are teams like maybe not.

Miami. Maybe, maybe we're learning from the last few days that they're committed to Tua in a way that we weren't sure that they were. But think about Carolina, right? Like, you might have a team that's motivated to try to make a Godfather offer even to the Jets to get to two and to snag one of the top guys. And then all of a sudden, that third pick, that fourth pick, you're, you have to be there to get a quarterback you want or the options are growing increasingly limited. So the ripple effect from what's going on here touches a lot of a lot of different teams. And so we'll have to be smart and thoughtful and careful about how we talk about it. But it's just it is, it felt worth and necessary to have the conversation because it's just going to keep coming up. And that's that's just the way it is.

Yep. And this, the football and human stories are completely separate at this point. But they both exist. And it's worth contextualizing. They're separate in the sense that they have to be identified separately, but they're, they are linked. Right, right. Right. No, 100%.

100%. All right. We'll be right back. We're going to talk Mac Jones. We've talked draft and Bay Picture Football. All right. Let's get to the ramifications of last week, the ripple effects, the reckoning, whatever you want to call it, of the Macapocalypse.

I don't know. We're still workshopping this guy. The Macpocalypse. I'm trying. I'm trying. So I've never seen anything. I think Macpocalypse right now is the best we've got. I've never seen anything like this.

This is not. I saw some people talk about the Josh Allen thing and make the comparison. We were all wrong on Josh Allen, so we're all going to be wrong on Mac Jones. It's a little bit different. First of all, I'll readily admit I was one of those people who was just dead wrong on Josh Allen, and I'm super happy for his success. But the Josh Allen thing, there were a lot of really smart NFL lifers who were like, you don't understand.

You're not seeing with Josh Allen. He's really good. Josh Allen can also move. He can move. There was a lot. I remember going on a show at one point and just actually throwing up my hands

on Josh Allen and being like, you know what? At some point, I guess I just have to, there's a wisdom of the crowds here with NFL lifers that I almost, I can't dismiss the fact that there's just something there, right?

And again, that didn't preclude me from not liking the Josh Allen pick, but I just, there was something there was like, okay, well, maybe he's, He's something there. Mac Jones is different.

Mac Jones is almost at this point, it seems like Kyle Shanahan, a few people around Kyle Shanahan versus the world. Really? I mean, so the reports, so the latest reports, Michael Embardi comes out of buddy, Michael Bardi says,

when you examine the quarterback from the Shanahan tree, Mike and Kyle, the one player that fits is Mac Jones. Why is he so surprised everyone can go with three? Okay, then Chris Sims,

so we talked about on the emergency pod with you and B, Bill, and Danny on Friday. Kyle Shanahan gets the most out of his quarterbacks who trust his system and make the right reads. Matt Schaub 2009, passing champ Kirk Cousins with Washington. Matt Ryan, 2016 MVP.

Mack Jones is an ideal quarterback for that mold, more on par with Ryan. Nora, we've had a weekend, we've had a Monday, we've had a Tuesday to internalize all of this, where are we on Mac Jones at 3? I get it no more than I did then. I just, the phrase that you have to

zero in on there, right, is make the right reads. So if Mack Jones is indeed the choice at three, then basically what we glean from that is that that quality was prioritized above everything else. The entire league is shifting or has shifted in the direction of to succeed, you pretty much need a mobile quarterback. And I'm sure Mac Jones today at his pro day

will have to do all sorts of demonstrating and doing work, is designed to prove like, hey, you know, I can, I can roll out. I can move around a little bit. Like, you can run boot stuff with me and it'll be just fine. And if he proves that, then, sure, maybe they decide that he's got enough athletic ability to operate the system and that ability to process and make the right reads. If Kyle Shanahan can give him enough clues pre-snap that are going to help him know what's coming, then that's what they want running their offense and that's the most important thing to them. I just have a hard time understanding it because I thought the reason that they were doing all of this was to raise the ceiling, right?

Jimmy Garoppolo is not a terrible quarterback. Jimmy Garapolo got them to a Super Bowl. I thought they were moving up to three because they see someone or a group of someone's who they think would be the difference between winning that Super Bowl and losing it. And I just have a hard time understanding how makes the right reads is enough to do that because Jimmy makes the right reads a lot of the time. Like, don't you already have that? I don't get it. Okay. So this was actually surprised to me in this context. I'd always heard that the people who know Kyle Shanahan, I don't even I've been in a handful of times. I've interviewed them, but I don't, I would, don't claim to be any great Kyle Shanahan expert.

Also, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you. But I feel like we have identified over the last week. That's been a side effect of all of this is that like, we've sort of re-identified the Kyle Shanahan experts in NFL media. Yep. Yeah. Everyone's being like, Chris Sims. Yeah.

We know, they know who they are. They're having a moment. They're having a, Kyle Shanahan experts are having a moment. Stock on Kyle Shanahan experts is high. What I had heard over the past half decade, I guess, since Kyle Shanahan exploded onto the scene with Atlanta, even though he was very good with Cleveland. I'd always heard that Kyle Shanahan thought he could do it with anybody.

And that even when he had Matt Ryan, that the feeling amongst the staff was that there are a lot of people who could execute what the Kyle Shanahan quarterback is doing. And so to give up three first round picks to Mack Jones because he's a Shanahan quarterback, to me, had gone against what I had heard and felt about Shanahan for the past half decade, is that you can get anybody, you know, RG3 and the Kyle Shanahan offense, which borrowed liberally from Baylor and was really, I don't think that they get enough credit. I think RG3 and Cam Newton at the beginning of the last decade don't get enough credit

for how they brought the college offense, basically one to one to the NFL. And I talked to Baylor's offensive coordinator in 2012 around there. and he was saying they were just taking our place. That wasn't the Shanahan offense. That was just Shanahan's mind adapting and being really good. Again, I was surprised by this. I think that one thing about this kind of trade where everyone, it's so huge that you declare your intentions, right,

about your quarterback, about your offense, about your whatever. The 49ers, because they traded three first-round picks, are desperate to raise the ceiling quarterback. They are desperate. There was no other word to say it. When you trade three first round picks for anything, that's desperation to do something. Okay. Miami is not desperate.

Philadelphia is not desperate. So all of the narratives we thought about Tua, all the narratives we thought about J.1 Hertz and the plan of Philadelphia, we kind of have better answers on that. And we have a murkier version on the 49ers. One thing, you know, I don't want to sit here and just dunk on Mac Jones for 40 minutes. I was listening to Bucky Brooks and Daniel Tremaya. I moved the six yesterday. And at the end, Buck you just sort of like started to say nice things about Mac Jones just because he felt they just spent the entire time ripping apart.

And I kind of think that sometimes these guys, they're not asking. Daniel Jones didn't ask to go in the top ten. So make fun of Dave Gettleman. You know, it just gets, I made fun of Josh Allen. I was like an absolute moron. Well, although, conversely, people act like Josh Allen was a fourth round pick sometimes. Like there is a way that this swings the other direction where you have this like full chip-on-shoulder narrative that arises from a guy being drafted like four slots below where he

might have otherwise been? I do want to say, you know, it was interesting. There was a quote in Albert Breyer's piece this week that, so he made 17 career starts. And I think a lot of scouts are worried about that. There was an old kind of old world, old scout mentality that you needed to have, you know, 30 starts, something like that you want to see. Hopefully you can even get 40 starts. And that's basically what amounts to three years now, modern college football.

That's what scouts like to see because scouts like sample size. So the quote from an NFC executive was the drawbacks may be he's a one-year guy and there are arguments in the talent around him. But nobody made those comments about Joe Burrow, right? I don't think we can get into that. Like Joe Burrow was one of the best college quarterbacks I've ever seen. And listen, I've seen a lot of great college quarterbacks who ended up not great at the pros. But I'm just saying if you're comparing Joe Burrow to Mac Jones saying, okay, well, Joe Burrow had a small sample size too.

I just think that that's, that's a little bit misguided. Most of the scouts who talk to people, whether that's Breer or whomever, say he's not elite, that he can do some things well and that there are questions about him that have been answered,

maybe by the pro days, maybe by tape, whether that's throwing on the run, you know, athletically, he's just average. I think most of the scouts, when I was reading those scouting reports from the kind of anonymous scouts who talked,

most of them came away thinking he's fine. He's got a something about him that makes people like him. which I guess counts for something, certainly at the quarterback position. But the more I read about this, I just don't understand why you would sell the farm. And I also think it's a useful exercise, Nora.

If you were to call, just call all 32 teams and say, we'll give you three first round picks for your quarterback. How many teams say no? Okay, well, very few. The answer to that is very few. So the chiefs say no. I'm not sure. I'm not sure the Packers say no.

I'm not sure the Seahawks say no. The bills say no. The bills say no. The Chargers say no. It's like six teams, Max. Yeah. We can give it more thought. The Cardinals probably say no.

I'm just saying that's a lot to give up for a guy who we don't know if it's elite. And then, you know, Daniel Jeremiah's point on Twitter yesterday, which I found interesting. for him, for him, if you add in Sam Darnold's availability to the quarterback class, he would go third. It would go Lawrence, Zach Wilson, Sam Darnold third, Trey Lance fourth, Justin Fields, fifth, Mac Jones, sixth. We talk so much about value.

And one of the reasons I hated the Daniel Jones pick was not because Daniel Jones is a bad player. I'll let Dave Gettleman do that evaluation. and fell in love at the senior bowl with them, all that stuff. It's because there was no evidence that there was a team behind them that was going to take Daniel Jones. They could have gotten him later in the first round. And then there were reports in that I think the Giants kind of leaked that there were teams that were going to take it. And then ESPN reporters essentially found out there wasn't.

There was no team that was ready to pounce on Daniel Jones. And I just think that with Mack Jones, who according to Daniel Dermias is essentially fifth best quarterback or sixth, that you throw in hypothetical Sam Darnal availability. I don't know if you need to sell the farm for that. And that's the word, I'm just looking at a value standpoint. That's why I'm scratching my head. As we said,

I think this pick will age well because Kyle Shanahan's going to turn Mack Jones and a significantly better quarterback than Mac Jones is. That's why I actually thought that when we look back on this deal in five or ten years, we're going to look back on it as a good one for San Francisco because Kyle Shannon is such a good coach. I'm just saying because he's a great coach and because he can get these guys in the run and because he can coach him up, that doesn't make every trade he,

he, uh, executes infallible. Yeah. And I just, I, the, the logic of it is weird in that case, right?

Because everything that you said about Mac Jones, likable guy, brings people along with him, smart, capable. Like, all of those things are true of Jimmy Garoppolo. And we just did this. So like,

it just, it does not make sense to me. But I mean, it is true that if you want, a quarterback. Like, there are a top five, there's a top five, not a top four anymore. No matter what order it goes. And that's just what it's going to be. And all of these guys are going to go in the top 10. I'm increasingly sure by the day. So it's not as though there isn't like, to the point about Jones, there's competition. But at three, I just don't understand

how Mack Jones fits into a conversation where the purpose is to raise the ceiling. Yes. Yes. And, you know, so John Lynch has his pre-draft press conference last week. And he says, we paid somewhat of a premium doing it early and why that was important. I remember one thing Bill Walsh used to talk about when I was at Stanford is that you've got to beat your opponents to the punch. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know about that one, John. And I just don't know when you're just, when Mac Jones is what you're racing everybody to get to. I just don't know how useful that is.

You know, Breer essentially said that the reason that they're doing this is the one control. of a chaotic quarterback situation in the draft and that they don't want to have to sit there and be passengers when everybody else is making the selections. I just think that when you start, first round picks are really, really, really, really valuable. And I don't know. I wouldn't have done this deal. Well, you wouldn't have done the deal to move up to three at all? I don't, wouldn't have done it for this much of a premium.

And that's what you're going to do in a quarterback heavy draft. Would you have done this? I don't, yeah. I don't mind the move at all. I just don't understand if you're going to be so aggressive and pay that premium, which I don't mind doing because, by the way, like, a quarterback needy team in the Carolina Panthers has been hyper aggressive for most of this offseason and now is ostensibly waiting.

And it's unclear if they could get a quarterback that they want an eight. So you have competition. Like there's another team, at least. one other team that could very well want to get up to three or two or just be in the same mix that the 49ers wanted to be in. So I don't mind them, you know, beating their opponents to the punch in that sense. I just don't, I don't understand doing it for Mack Jones, which we don't know that they are doing. But that's the part that I don't know. It would be very fun. And we've been certainly, we've had discussions remember a couple of years ago when Peter King reported and

I'm sure this was correct, that John Dorsey was just in love with Josh Allen, right? And so we did the whole Josh Allen. It's going number one. What does that mean? There was a couple weeks of that. And then obviously he didn't. They took Baker Mayfield first overall. So we had conversations about picks that never came to fruition before an additional information.

I think that there's so many unknowns about this draft, right? The first baseball draft in the NFL, all the stuff we've talked about. Trey Lance has played essentially, you know, not essentially one game over the course of the last year. you know, if you fall in love with Justin Fields, that's a different thing. I think that it does make sense. And I understand how all over the board I have been about this. And please, in this particular instance, I'm going to contradict myself a little bit on just over the totality of the take because I think Kyle Shannon is so good. He's going to make anything work.

I'm talking purely from a value standpoint about drafting up for a quarterback in this draft. That is someone like Mack Jones. that's where I get a little bit gun-shy and start to question it. Okay. Well, but hold. So like I think you're, you're right in that that Kyle's such an asset and we'll make these guys look good, whoever it is. But we just, I mean, think about what we just came off of seeing in the last year with the

Packers, right, who are running a similar system on offense. It's an offense that's designed first and foremost to make life easier on quarterbacks and be sort of, you know, quote unquote, quarterback proof is the thing that we hear all the time. But then when you start doing that. that with Aaron Rogers, you see that you're getting the top offense in football, right? Because you have the floor of that system and then the ceiling of an elite quarterback running it. And the results are pretty spectacular. And that system is taking over offensive football to such a degree in the NFL these days that you start to wonder if there's kind of an arms race starting on the logical next step is,

okay, yeah, we're still all going to, we're going to do all of the smart things that we're already doing that's making guys like Jared Gough, Jimmy Garoppolo, able for a certain amount of time to execute these things and have really good offenses if the players around them are right and they're following the scheme and the coaching's good, which it has been. But at a certain point, these teams are realizing that other people are copying them and realizing that they were being smart and you need to upgrade.

And the upgrade has to come to the quarterback position. Yes, but I think that that's the story of trading into the top two in this draft and getting Wilson or Lawrence. I think there's, just because there's going to be one through four in quarterback, doesn't mean there's going to be four elite quarterbacks.

I think there's two probably nailed on elite quarterbacks and then a bunch of guys with question marks. And so I think that that whole thing, okay, Wilson running the shenan offense would be amazing. Well, they didn't blow away Joe Douglas

and Robert Sala at two. Obviously, Urban Meyer, we're going to get to this in a second is not going to trade one. So you're not, I don't, I think you give that much up

for a sure thing and not a question mark. And I think that's what they gave up. They gave it up it, gave it up as a question mark. And I think it'll work out again, because Kyle Shannon has a good coach. But I just, it's strange. And I do think, by the way, and this is something that has kind of evolved over the past couple of weeks.

But I really do think that this draft has changed so much. And if you're a non-quarterback needy team like Cincinnati, like Miami now, like I guess you could say Detroit is like that, your life is so much easier. now. Your life is so much easier. Because if you're Cincinnati, you know, Brewer had Joe Burrow giving a huge endorsement of Jamar Chase. And I imagine,

you know, Danny Kelly has Sewell going there. I imagine that happens. But imagine getting a chase or getting the chance to draft Devante Smith or Rishon Slater going at 7 to Detroit. Patrick Sartan probably going to Atlanta, some like that. J.C. Horn. You look at the Cowboys right now

who just, they just need something on defense. Because of the way the quarterback position is shaking out right now, they're going to have their pick of cornerbacks, and it's going to be hugely beneficial for them. I would say the Giants are 11th. Same thing. If Micah Parsons falls to them, he

wouldn't in a normal year. The fact that there's a run on quarterback, there's a quarterback panic, and the fact that this is happening is changing really the destiny of a number of franchises here. Yeah, I'm also not positive that Atlanta is not part of that. I mean, they could obviously

shop the pick, and the complicating factor is being in division with Carolina, but... Because they have the fourth pick, I'm assuming that they're trading down. But they're trading down or taking a quarterback. Yes. I think the fourth pick in the draft is going to be a quarterback.

Yes. I agree. I just think it could still be Atlanta making it. Yes, I agree with you. I'm just saying, there's a quarterback going there. I don't know where he's going. All right, let's talk about Urban Meyer for a second. So Urban Meyer essentially gives up the worst

kept secret in football, which is, which is that it is, they're heading in the direction of drafting Trevor Lawrence. Peter King got Urban Meyer to talk over the weekend. I thought it was a really, really good interview. You know, there's a lot to digest with Meyer coming in. One of those in King made this point was that, so he asked Urban Myers are a chance you you pull a Nick Sabin and you're just back in college next year. And Meyer said zero chance of that, which I tend to believe.

And also part of it is that Sabin's mistake was not having a quarterback. back, rolling the dice on Dante Colpepper when eventually in the second year when Drew Brees failed his physical when the Dolphin Doctor says he couldn't play there. And then saying, this sucks, I'm out of here. And there were a lot of things that I've written about this, a lot of things Sabin didn't like about just the structure of football, about pro football. And there's a reason he left there. But this seems like it's going to go a little better because the number one problem in football

is already solved and that's going to be the quarterback. you know, Meyer talked a little bit about getting a culture in that reflects kind of what Belichick has in New England or had in New England. I haven't checked in on the culture there lately, but it obviously wasn't as good as it. It obviously wasn't as good as it was a couple years ago. But it was really funny. It was kind of a funny exchange where Myers talking about the culture he set there and how Brady's running June OTA is like it's the Super Bowl. and he goes through the whole thing about why the Patriots culture

is so good. And then King says, quarterback helped. And Meyer says, well, yeah, it was part of the culture. And it's like, well, okay, I promise you of Tom Brady sucked that he would not be part of the culture. Like, elite quarterback is the problem to solve. The culture stems that if you have both, you're going to be fine.

But I think this Jaguars thing has a chance to work. I think that it's good that they're not playing games and trying to pretend they're not picking Trevor Lawrence and all that stuff. Where are we on Jacksonville? were on Trevor Lawrence. First of all, I think the, I think the phrasing of that's the direction we're going as a non-confirmation of like the world's most obvious thing is hysterical. And I commend Urban Meyer for making it and for Peter King for asking the questions because that I really

got to kick out of that. But I think to your point about culture, it's not even how the how the top quarterback acts. It's just that he exists. Like Tom Brady, if he's, you know, continuing to play well, he walks into a building, whether it's in Tampa or New England in the morning, and there's an element of culture that's just already there because every other player on the roster knows that they have a chance to actually compete for something. And Tom Brady, frankly, could walk into the room, and this would have other destructive elements involved in it, but Tom Brady could walk into the room and not talk to anybody

and not be very nice and not be all raw, raw, you know, LFG baby, let's go. Like, it would still help to have him culture-wise, because everybody knows that the team has a real shot. So Trevor Lawrence, by all accounts, is an incredibly, like, you know, high character, winning culture, strong mentality, great teammate type of guy. But it also just, in a place like Jacksonville, especially, it matters so much just to have the feeling in the building of, okay, we got the guy. Like that's the place where the culture stems from probably even more than like, does he take the offensive line bowling?

But it helps if he takes the offensive line bowling. It always helps. I didn't check. Because of the pandemic, I did not actually get to go to any bowling alleys in North Florida. But I'm sure that they're extremely good. I feel like North Florida would be a good place for bowling alleys. There was one, maybe five minutes from where we were living in St. Augustine. I saw it a couple times.

Surprisingly packed is my comment. on that surprisingly packed at all times. But I yeah, I think that they go hand in hand. And, you know, Meyer made a comment that I kind of, I don't know, he made a comment in the interviewer who was like, you know, he's not worried about social media, just worried about becoming the best player he can become and that's refreshing to me. I think there's a lot that goes along now with being a elite quarterback.

And I think you have to be kind of all things to all people. and it'll be interesting to see. I think people love, love Trevor Lawrence and love being around him. And I think that there, I think Jacksonville has, has a real chance here.

And I think the Urban Meyer, the number one thing for Urban Myers to be adaptable and don't come in. So many of these guys, when Lou Holtz became the Jets coach, and I think quit 15 weeks into it or something, it was Joe Namath's last season in New York. He said, he looked at the camera

when he quit and said, God didn't make Lou Holtz to be an NFL coach, right? And I think there's a lot of college coaches who view that you view college in NFL is so separate and that they're destined for one of those things. And I don't think Urban Meyer views that. There's a reason I think that Urban Meyer was studying Bill Belichick in 2006. There's a reason that they had that bromance that, frankly, led to a lot of gators being drafted by Bill Belichick. But you don't start planning those seeds unless you have some interest in the NFL level. And I remember four or five years ago, people saying,

Urban has such an ego that he wants to prove he can do it at the highest level. And there's a lack of control that you have in the NFL that I don't think certain college coaches like. When Nick Saban literally said, when he was looking back at NFL time, he said, well, I can't control my own destiny here. And that was the problem. There are too many things, no matter how hard I work or no matter what I do, I can't, I can control my destiny and college better by working hard, making good choices and creating a good program from players. That was how Saban put it about college. and in the NFL, he thinks that wasn't true. And so you're taking a completely different approach in the NFL.

And I actually commend Meyer for taking this leap. I actually think it's going to work as long as he doesn't view himself, as Sabin did, as Holtz did, as a couple of these guys did, Vi Batrino did, as a college coach in the NFL and views himself just as a football coach who adapt to the NFL level as soon as he possibly can. Some of his coordinator has hired him suggest that he's ready to sort of jump to the NFL level and kind of adapt his scheme to the NFL level. It is to me one of maybe the three or four most intriguing questions on the field in 2021. Yeah, I'll be honest. I'm a little bit less bullish on it than you are just in terms of how that's going to work out. But the adaptability is really critical.

I mean, I think a lot of people have softened on Cliff Kingsbury hype. But that was the thing that was so encouraging initially about Cliff was that he demonstrated some adaptability. And I think if you're making that leap, that's just the essential quality. I do feel like we got to stop straw manning social media, I think. Yeah, that was. It's just a fact of life. Everybody's got to get over it. I agree with that.

Steve Sproier is another one where Sproier literally when he quit a source to ESPN that he realized, once he realized his offense couldn't work, he just bailed. And I'm serious. That's literally, that's literally, when he quit in the contemporary accounts, he was just like, oh, wow, this is not going to work. I got to go. And that suggests a certain line of thinking. And again, as long as Urban Meyer doesn't have that line of thinking, I think he can work, I think he's got a better quarterback than most of these guys. I think that the era is different where the merging of college and pro is one of the biggest

on-field stories of the last decade. I think that this can work. And I'm intrigued to see sort of how it all develops. And the fact that there's going to be patience there. Like, they're not going to fire Urban Meyer after two years. This is going to be a program. Why does your building, Nora, sound like you're on a railroad construction site? So there's something, the boiler in my building, I live in an old building in Boston.

And when I say old, I mean old by Boston standards. So like very old. The boiler needed to be replaced over the winter, which was like its own whole kerfuffle. And now sometimes the radiator just makes very loud thumping noises as if they're There were a small colony of men building a secret city on the inside of the radiator. And that's just, that's, that's the life that we're living here these days. I don't mean to minimize the danger here, but what percentage would you put that you survive the spring intact with that particular noise going? I'm not saying from a, from a noise pollution standpoint, I'm saying when a boiler is just making loud noises, I feel like that increases the danger of just day to day life.

Like you think it might explode? Yeah. kind of what I'm suggesting to. Well, so, so my feeling is more like... I think they probably can. Should I put my microphone like up to it? I'm not going to do that. No, let's not do that. It's, yeah. So I like to think that I'm more safe now that it's been replaced because it's a newer boiler. There was a time during the winter. I did this podcast once and you were like, why are you wearing a hat?

And I was like, well, it's 40 degrees in my apartment. So that happened for a little, little tad bit. But they did have to replace it. So I just, because it's a new piece of equipment, I feel like all the parts just need to talk to each other for a little bit. And then they'll get up to speed and they'll figure their stuff out. But who's to say? Who's to say, indeed.

Okay. So let's go around and just talk a little bit big picture, but what we learned in the last week about a couple of these teams. Because, again, we did the fresh thing last week after the draft. But now I'm looking at the top of the draft. And there's so much to digest. And, you know, Kaelin Jones had a really good piece about the dolphins this week on the record.com. I encourage you all to read it.

And I think that one of the things, you know, Peter King made this, this point two, where essentially he said that there's a new breed of general managers and they're ready to trade. Howie's always been a part of that. Chris Greer has always been a part of that. John Lynch, obviously, has taken some big swings, you know, whether if the Niners going back to the, the Gropolo deal, all that stuff. They all have job security. They all have a willingness to understand the cap. I mean, the Garoppolo deal in particular, I think the contract was sort of a innovative thing that probably doesn't get enough credit.

They just basically gave Jimmy Garoppolo and a boatload of money up front that Packers ended up doing the Sarah and Rogers as well. I think Rogers made like $67 million in cash the first year of his deal so that you can sort of the cap number gets to be manageable later in the deal. it's sort of an interesting innovation. Nora, when you think about the three teams in this deal and anybody in the top half of the draft and how they're acting right now, is there a team that stands out where either your opinion changed or you learn the most or you just want to talk about them? Well, so let's, in the top half of the first round is the framework of your question? Or anybody.

If you're just, if you're just like, I want to, I desperately want to talk about this team, you have the floor. Well, I feel like we've talked about the three teams directly. involved in the trade enough. So let's talk a little bit about the Panthers here because we've touched on them a few times. But they are now in a really interesting situation to me where they've been aggressive across the board in a lot of ways. But now they're they're without a quarterback, it seems, because they don't seem inclined to, it doesn't seem like they want to keep going with Teddy as their guy. So then there's the question of, okay, well, they are going to have a tough time. Like if that fourth pick that the Falcons have is allegedly could be bought,

that's tough for them because that's the division. So that's, they would have to, I'm not saying it's impossible, but they would have to pay like an even greater premium there. The wild card is if it would ever be possible for them to get up to two. If the Jets just could be blown away by a ridiculous offer, I don't think that people really know what Joe Douglas is thinking or are going to do. I think that's unlikely, but I don't think that it should be taken as completely out of the question. Or the question I have is what happens if neither of those things happens? And they stay at eight and they can't move from eight or can't move very much, right?

Like, if they can't get a quarterback, then what? Is it Sam Darnold? If Darnold becomes available if the Jets draft a guy? Is there a Darnold destination in your mind knowing what we know now about these? quarterbacks. Is there a thing, you know, so Kim Martin comes out with the report that she asked a bunch of GMs, what they'd be willing to give up for Darnold. Two said a third round pick. One saying a late third would be a little rich. Uh, and a GM's, another GM saying maybe a conditional fourth. Stock for Sam Darnold is not high right now. I kind of feel like, and I don't

throw this around lightly, kind of feel like he's getting to be a little bit underrated here. And just in the context, in the context of what teams would give up for him, I would maybe I think a third round pick seems right. If you're throwing around a conditional fourth, let's just relax here. Okay, I feel like a third round pick for his skill set. I think the right coach could at least get something out of him. Listen, you're paying a gays tax here.

Like, look what happened to Ryan Tannahill when he left Adam Gase. Sam Darnold. I'm not saying he can be Ryan Tannahill 2.0. I'm just saying there's a gays tax. There is a gase tax. If you've played for Adam Gase, you've looked worse than you actually are. So if you're, if you're, listen, I guess David Teper is going to, the quote was he's going to move mountains to get a franchise quarterback, fine.

What I am saying is if you're a team that's on the cusp of that, and you don't want to be give a bunch of first round picks, and you don't want to bet the 49ers and commit three first round picks to a quarterback. Sam Donald is a really good option. Am I wrong? Gase taxes, you actually do have it in Florida. No, you're not wrong at all. The case is the one tax that exists in Florida.

No state income tax. There's a gay tax if you played quarterback for the Dolphins. No, I don't think you're wrong at all. And I actually think that there's a way because that, that stretch of the draft where the Panthers are, where the Broncos are, that's like where the most interesting sort of draft game theory, I think, starts to happen or is happening. And I wonder if Carolina actually could end up in a situation where it's kind of,

it's kind of an either or between, okay, could we potentially ever without doing something completely insane in terms of what you'd have to spend to do it? could we ever get the Jets to move off of two? And if not, then does Darnold become kind of the top target? I don't know. But they've built such a framework where the quarterback needs to be dropped in that you start to get, you know, you get a clear sense that the process has been messed up if there isn't a guy.

And I don't know if Darnold is like the guy. guy that you want, but I think they would have to do something with someone like that because they've done so much work. And Tepper has been so aggressive. And the whole culture there has been, you know, if you build it, he will come. But you got to get the guy. I think that with the Sean Watson trade essentially off right now. And we've talked so much about David Tepper being the overpay guy and he'll do whatever

it takes you to the franchise quarterback, whatever. I do think you run the risk of just getting on tilt a little bit and overpaying for any quarterback whatsoever. And I don't think there's Matt rules under a long-term contract. They have a new GM. I don't think there's any law that says if they don't get a franchise quarterback in 2021, that they're screwed. Like, what if this Russell Wilson thing is real and it just rolls over a year? What if this Aaron Rogers thing is real and he is unhappy with the situation and that you're looking at maybe next year where maybe he can be pried away? I just think that there's going to be more options out there.

You know, I think that I've, I've thought about this a lot with, with the NBA, because Rosillo and Wojj did a podcast a couple months ago. And I think it was Woz who said in the NBA with any superstar, the entire job of being an insider, essentially, according to Woj, just waiting for the next guy to get pissed off, like, waiting for James Hardin to be like, I'm out of here. And then your whole, the whole league changes, waiting for Russell Westbrook to say, I'm out of here and the whole league changes.

Dwight Howard and Orlando. You know, one day there's a handful of superstars who were young in the NBA. Maybe they'll do that too. But with the NFL and quarterbacks, I kind of feel like we're trending in the same direction where obviously the Deshaun situation we have to put in a separate category here. But that's an example of a quarterback who just said, I'm out of here. And maybe that happens next year where Russell Wilson forces the hand.

Maybe that happens with Aaron Rogers, forces the hand with Jordan Love, waiting in the winks. And we solved it a little bit with the unhappiness and the press conference. But I think that Green Bay and Rogers are a match made in heaven, both football-wise and everything-wise. And I think it's going to be a little harder than the Russell Wilson's tuition. All I'm saying is if the Panthers roll over the quarterback search for another year and a patient, I don't think that's the worst thing in the world. I think that's fair. But you got to look at your roster and ask yourself at every position, is there a way that we can get more competitive here?

Right. And they've done that so clearly and aggressively and so much. many different spots that I do think it's kind of a wrench if you don't do it at quarterback. When you've clearly telegraphed, I mean, like, Teddy's got to know that they wanted to go in a different direction, right? Like, it's pretty plain. So if it doesn't, if it does, if the chips don't fall the way that they would like them to, then yeah, I agree with you. I would be patient instead of just like going absolutely crazy bananas to get somebody anybody. But you got to. You got to match your own tone sometimes. And their tone has been such aggressive pursuit in general

that you kind of wonder, okay, how does that work if the last piece of the puzzle is also the biggest piece of the puzzle, which is always quarterback. Yeah. I got to listen. No one is as big an advocate for being set of the quarterback than I am. But I do think you run the risk of overcommitting and having no more resources to solve that question if it doesn't work is all I'm saying. You better be sure. That's what kind of offends me about the Mac Jones thing is that you're committing three first round picks and you're not absolutely sure. And whoever it is at three, I think the third pick is it's a real question. John, John Lynch and Kyle Shannon are so much smarter than me. It's not even funny. They would run circles around me within like a 10 second

conversation. It is a little funny. They would run circles around me. I'm just saying the risk is when you don't know. It's when you don't know. Like that's the, remember the first line of the big short the movie where they say, it's not what you don't know. It's what you're sure of. It just isn't so. That's what I think about the third pick there is that if you're 100% confident there, it's, I don't know, it's a bit of a risk. To your point about patience, the one move that fits into that, or it's not the one move, but a move that fits into that that I've sort of come around on is I liked Brian Fitzpatrick to Washington initially. But I was kind of like, okay, yeah, you know, you've made the playoffs.

Like fits is fits. I see it. The only thing that I felt sort of hazy about was if you're trying to build something, is Ryan Fitzpatrick too kind of like murky middle? You know, you're not going to get, you're probably not going to get a high draft pick because you'll probably be too good. So does this really accomplish what it needs to? The more I've thought about it, the more I think that was a really smart move.

because one, like, they're good enough to, especially on defense, they're good enough so that with a competent quarterback, which I believe fit still is, that'll be one just like a watchable team probably. They had a good free agency. And then the other thing is that he could turn into a trade chip. Yeah. If somebody else's quarterback gets hurt,

whatever, if they find it, you know, if they draft someone, like you never know. the more that I've thought about that, the more that that starts to fit into the prism of, okay, you got more competitive at quarterback on your roster this offseason and didn't limit future flexibility in any sort of significant way. So it's not,

I mean, you know, they're not going to win the Super Bowl, but that's one that it's not that I minded it initially, but it's just still really grown on me. All right. Last thing. You are co-pocket.

piloting an incredible Taylor Swift podcast that I think is really, really good. Everybody should listen to it. If you don't like Taylor Swift, I'm one of those people. If you had to do, we were just talking about this a little bit about what other musical acts we might do. But if you had to do a podcast like that, but on an NFL player or team or coach, you would choose what? Just like a retrospective podcast. Well, this is annoying, but it's Tom Brady. I'm sorry, but it is.

Would you like to expand on that? Tom Brady is, I mean, Tom Brady is kind of like Taylor Swift, right? He's been around for a really long time. We have a ton of just data points to mine for analysis and commentary and can see changes in his life and in his game and the way that he presents himself and the way that he communicates with people. Like there's just enough material to work with first and foremost to enough celebrity. Everybody knows who he is. And the interesting part or one of the interesting parts about doing the Taylor thing is that there are certain eras, albums, situations where Nathan, my co-host and I are really talking about music. We're breaking down songs.

We're talking about this chord structure from all too well ends up coming back around in champagne problems. But actually maybe it's taken in part from somebody else's song and all of that. but then there's other times when we're really talking about like Taylor the celebrity. And Brady presents a ton of opportunities to do that as well, right? Like everybody involved has been to the Met Gala. Everybody involved has worn ridiculous hats. Like all of these are important component parts of a good, juicy podcast. So I'm sorry, but I think it's Brady.

Oh, no, back on much of the Met Gala as well. True. Think one. I believe Lena Dunham did not enjoy. that from what I remember. That was a bit of a mini scandal there. Oh my God. I forgot about that. Lina Dunham at one point dated Jack Antonoff, long time Taylor Swift producer. There you go. Um, okay. So I think that if I had to do a retrospect of podcast and anybody's story and really dig into the details, I think Vince Young would be amazing.

Um, yeah, I just, I, I find the flame out. It's more interesting than successes like Johnny Mansell. If you get him to be totally honest about everything. I think he has been. at this point. It just hasn't all been in one place. Like, I think there's a lot there. And there's other, I'm not going to say the full list of things I do a podcast on because, you know, we do run a podcast company. But I think that there's, there's so many fascinating. You just make me burn an idea. Oh, a podcast about Tom Brady. You're the first person to come up with that. Tom Brady retrospective. Nobody else going to come up with that. You're the, you're the person. Oh, wow. We found Tom Brady podcast. Um, the, uh, the, the, the, I think there's a lot,

like, I would do a whole thing on, I, on just like, the biggest busts. is those, like Tom Brady, for as interesting as he is, like, you've heard him talk. I've heard him talk. He mostly just, there's a lot of pleasantries there, as I'll say. I don't think that the podcast is like you talk to Tom Brady the whole time. I know. I know. Even the tea leaves are hard to read.

Taylor Swift, it's more interesting, right? That's why the Taylor thing works is that there's more of a subtext than there is with Tom Brady. Yes and no. Because one of the things with one of the things that is like my fundamental thesis of Taylor Swift is that she has been around for long enough that we kind of know who she is. Like there are a lot of situations where with Taylor, a discussion comes up about like the word calculating is a very triggering one in the, in the Taylor Swift community. So there are all these examples where it's like, did she kind of scheme this out? Or is this really authentically

like, oh, I'm so shocked. I can't believe this happened. My feeling is that we know enough about her and what her personality is, and we've known it for long enough, that we can kind of assess, like, okay, yes, she is inclined to be a little awestruck by things that maybe if you've really fully internalized what it means to be Taylor Swift in 2021, seem a little bit incongruent with that. But, like, we know that about her. That's just how she is.

And Brady, I think there's a similar thing, right? We're like, we know that he wants credit for things. We know that he is really dedicated to this specific lifestyle and feels very strongly about being able to speak openly about it, put it out in the universe. We know that he has a real ability to connect with teammates, but that sometimes he does, like, he can be very sort of team first in that way, but that he also cares about, you know, looking out for number one. And I think there's enough of that in both cases, just because we have.

have such a history that it becomes possible to do something like that. What do we call the Tom Brady podcast? I don't know. I can't give away all my ideas, Kevin. We'll have the fair cliff hanger for next week. All right. Coming up on Friday, the Big Board Show with Danny Hyfitts and Danny Kelly's. They reset the top five spots of the 2021 draft after the 49ers tradeups number three.

The Danys are going twice a week for April. They'll be going Monday and Friday. Nora and I will be back next Wednesday. as we talked about every single album, Taylor Swift, has two episodes this week. Yep. We dropped Lover on Monday, and we will have folklore on Thursday. I love it. This has been The Ringar NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.