The Ringer NFL Show - Do Running Backs Matter? | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: April 19, 2019

Russell Wilson just signed the richest deal in NFL history. How will Wilson's payout affect the future quarterback market? (0:40) Also, the best running backs to draft, the right time to draft them, and whether it even matters (9:15). Finally, how the worst teams in the NFL can improve their rosters in this year's draft (24:30). Host: Kevin Clark Guest: Danny Kelly Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Season 8 of Game of Thrones premiered on Sunday, and you can deep dive with the ringer staff as we make our way through the final episodes of the series. On the podcast side, listen to Binge Mode Game of Thrones with Mallory Rubin and Jason Concepcion, the watch with Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald, and a pre-capable series on the recapables feed

where we'll make predictions on episodes to come. In addition to our Sunday night Twitter after show called Talk the Thrones, we'll be releasing tons of videos over the course of the series. So make sure to check out our YouTube channel at YouTube.com slash the ringer. And for even more Game of Thrones coverage, head over to the ringer.com.

It's The Ringer NFL show. I'm Kevin Clark. Joining me on the other line. It's Danny Kelly. Danny, how are you? I'm doing excellent. It's a single digit number of days until the NFL draft.

It's a Christmas for you. I know. It's very exciting. It's kind of the home stretch. I'm just trying to get everything ready before the big day, Thursday, next Thursday. Okay, so Robert Mays is having travel problems.

It's just us. today. Yeah. Danny, it couldn't be more fitting because I'm just going to turn it over for you for an hour to talk about the Russell Wilson extension. I mean, I think, like, obviously we covered it on the emergency pod last week. Well, no, we'll hold on. Let's back up here.

Sure. Because let's let the listener through the curtain here, okay? Mays and I were convinced they weren't going to sign him. Yeah. And when we were recording that pod, we wanted to even word it more strongly that he wasn't going to sign. And one voice in the wilderness, Mr. Danny Kelly said, well, guys, what if they sign him? We need to do a whole segment. And Mays and I just laughed. We laughed and laughed and laughed. I remember all of this. Yes. And you dunked on us. So take me through, take me through what this

means for the Seahawks, four years, $140 million. And what the Seahawks need to do, just going forward to build a team around him. Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously, so first of all, the big thing is he didn't get his contract tied to the salary cap. Like we talked about, you always start really high in negotiations and then you settle for something that's also very good. He's now the highest paid player in the NFL. He's the highest paid quarterback, obviously, per year or whatever based on annual value. I think it's like 34.9 or something like that, 35. So, yeah, he got the market setting deal that he wanted.

the Seahawks get him for the next five years, which is, or I should say, yeah, it's a four-year extension, right? So it's next year, it's this year, 2019, plus the additional four years, which was kind of actually a surprise because last time he made this contract, he wanted it to be shorter so he could kind of get out and, you know, have another big deal. So he's locked up for the long term with the Seahawks. He's also got a no trade clause in there. So we could probably put to bed a lot of the trade rumors that we'd been here.

hearing about lately. So overall, it was a good day for, I think, both Wilson and the Seahawks. Going forward, like you said, it makes it more challenging, obviously, when you're, when you're dedicating like 18% of your cap to one guy. And I think the big thing that the Seahawks have to just do going forward is draft better. I mean, they've had, they built a Super Bowl team on the draft. Obviously, they augmented it with some very, very good free agent signings, particularly Lee Michael Bennett and Cliff Averill. But for the most part, it was a draft-oriented team, and they need to get back to that a little bit. I mean, they don't have to hit on like mid-rounder Hall of Famers quite at the rate that they did before because that's just going to be impossible.

But I think they just have to, they really have to, you know, have more success in the draft. That's the big thing. I can't wait for the next Russell Wilson negotiation in five years where he comes out and says, you know, four years ago it was he wants a baseball-style contract. It's all guaranteed. Now he wants a percentage of the cap. In both cases, he just got a regular rich guy deal. And so this will happen again in four years. We'll all freak out about it.

And then he will sign for more money. He's going to want an ownership stake in the team or something like that. You know, the first time I talked to Russell Wilson was like two days after, like sat down with him was like two days after he won the Super Bowl. And he told me that his goal was to own a team. Yeah. And everything makes more sense. you know, just the financial savvy and that sort of thing,

when you realize that he wants as much money as possible, it's really hard to get enough money to own a team or have a stake in a team in the NFL. You basically have to be a quarterback. You have to be a good quarterback. And you have to use all of the leverage you can. And that's what he's done here. Yeah.

He also wants, he said in his presser to announce the new deal or whatever the other day, he said he wants to play for 20 years. Oh, we're doing this again. We're doing this with the, like, is every quarterback, just going to play till they're 44? I mean,

it seems like that's where it's going. Do you doubt Wilson can do it too? Because the dude has not missed a practice in his entire career. I guess it's going to happen. I guess it's going to happen. I mean, and it goes back to, so here's my thing about Wilson,

okay? Mm-hmm. You take less damage than any quarterback in history if you're playing right now. Right. They protect the quarterback. The rules are just outrageously in favor of quarterback protection. Having said that,

Russell has taken some big hits behind that crappy Tom Capable offensive line. So he has some miles on him, but I think that it's totally realistic. Every quarterback is in play to play a past 40. I mean, that's what we see now. So I think that it's,

I think that that's real. And I also think that means there's what, two, three more instances in which we'll think the Sealk's not going to resign him than yes. God, can't wait. I just can't wait. 2023 will be going through this again. I guess, you know, 2022 maybe. So what is this due to the quarterback market? And this is the last thing I want to touch on this before we get to the draft.

This is a hefty price to pay if you're looking at the context of Carson Wentz or Jared Gough or Dak Prescott and these guys who make significant, you know, in Dax case, I think his cap hits less than a million dollars. In golf and Wentz's case, it's less than $10 million until they get their fifth year option. But when you consider that Matthew Stafford is making $29 million against. the cap. Kirk Cousins is making $29 million against the cap. Alex Smith, James, Winston, Marcus Marriota, all over $20 million. Yeah. You start to realize that the veteran quarterback market is broken and that you basically, you can afford a guy like Russell Wilson. The cap keeps rising. It'll be over $200 million next year. I think having him cost controlled, not getting that percentage of the cap thing, I think it's a pretty good contract for the Seahawks. Oh, yeah, I definitely

agree. I mean, it's going to be really interesting to kind of see what happens with, like you said, the next generation of quarterbacks. I mean, Mahomes, when he gets, when he hits free agency, it's going to be, I mean, he could have just a record setting deal, obviously. I mean, he's already shown that he's a superstar. I think, you know, like Deshaun Watson, too, is going to have the opportunity to be the highest paid player for a little while. Cam Newton's also coming up, I think after 2020, his contract is up. So, you know, Yeah, I mean, it's just the Russell Wilson thing right now. He's the highest paid quarterback in the NFL. He's the highest played player. And then that'll just last a little while, I think. And then he'll get surpassed by, you know, probably the next big quarterback who's reaching free agency and just continue on. And in a couple of years, yeah, I think he'll be kind of, it is like it is now. Like it'll be, he'll look like a big, like a relative bargain, I think.

It's just going to keep going. Yeah. I mean, it's relative bargain because a quarterback contracts always go up and be the, the salary. are known and the cap keeps rising. So, I mean, that's just how this works. Every quarterback contract eventually becomes a bargain unless it's Joe Flacco. Yeah. Had to get that Flacko dig in there. I love it. It's not a dig. That's just the truth. Yeah. Just the truth. Oh, I'm with you. Believe me, I'm with you. Over the cap has this clever thing. I didn't know they had until recently that they adjust salary for the salary cap. So you can look at all the

salaries in history and or since the cap was put in place in 93 and see who was actually the most paid by percent of the cap. Oh, that's interesting. And the answer, the most lucrative contract in history is actually Brett Farms contract. And he signed in 97, I think, which was adjusted for today's cap worth around $35 million a year. Wow. And also Carson Palmer's, oddly.

That sounds right. The Bengals one. Yeah, yes, yes. I remember that one being like kind of new. Basically, you're not, you're paying them as much as 97 breadfar. We're fine. Things,

we're good. Things are going to be all right. Yeah. We're all set. So congratulations to your Seahawks. Thank you. Now let's get, now let's start yelling about running backs in the draft.

All right. Let's do that. Okay. So you've done a lot of research. You are a draft guru. You've made a leap this year that has impressed even me. And I'm constantly impressed with you. I'm so impressed with you consistently.

And, And I've found new ways to be impressed and get you to leap in draft coverage this year. Thank you. Running backs. Yeah. So I think we have a disagreement because I think that you should never draft a running back with any pick that you find valuable.

And you should just sort of put about five minutes of research into it. But I think you disagree. No. Well, I'm staunchly on the do not draft a running back in the first round train. Like, I'm 100% about that. Yeah. The Seahawks do not agree with this. Seahawks don't follow my philosophy.

I'm working on it and I'm trying to turn public opinion against them. No, but I mean, like, it just whatever. The NFL definitely disagrees. I mean, we saw the freaking Patriots take a first round quarter running back last year. Yeah, I kind of think that was a classic Belichick value play where, okay, everyone is, everyone has de-emphasized the running back, so I'm just going to take one in the first round. It didn't work out, by the way. I mean, he was fine. I mean, he was fine.

By the way, it worked out because it won the Super Bowl. Like, all things worked out. Right. You know. Yeah. I don't think he, you know, he's not like a game changer. We're talking about Sony-Michelle. He played well.

He played the role for them. But, I mean, it's, yeah, those kinds of guys, I think are, you know, replaceable, at least. And so this class in particular is not outstanding. There's no Sequon-Barkley-Calliber player in this class. I think you have to kind of look more. It's more indefinitely in the Sony Michelle range. Josh Jacobs is the consensus number one guy, I think, for the most part. I have him ranked number 40 on my big board.

I think he's a good player. There's some pretty major question marks about him. He was in a committee at Alabama. Obviously, Alabama always tends to have good running backs, but he played in a committee with Damien Harris. So that's kind of a red flag number one. You know, number two, he wasn't very athletic overall. all. I know how much you value, you know, explosiveness and, and, and, and burst and all that

and athleticism. I just have, I have, I have thresholds for running back. Right. He's not like a terrible athlete, but he wasn't an outstanding athlete, you know, based on his testing numbers. So, you know, there's, there's a couple very big red flags, I guess, you know, about him, even though he is the consensus number one. I do think he's a good player, though, and I think he'll be, you know, someone who contributes early on. Well, two separate questions. Where would you feel comfortable drafting in what range and what will the NFL feel comfortable drafting him at? To me, he's an early second round would be the sweet spot. If you could get him in the early second round, I think that's great. So the NFL is going to draft him first overall? I think the NFL is

going to draft him late in the first round. He's invited to the draft. So that I think generally means something. It's not like a hard and fast rule that they're going to get taken in the first round. But he's going to the draft. So I think there's a very solid chance that he's going to get draft in the first round. I'm feeling, I'm feeling Raiders at 27. Yeah, me too. That just seems, that just seems like the, I, my, we're going to get to this. So, so a little later we're going to do sort of how the worst teams the NFL last year have a path forward.

But I don't think that just, just playing the percentages, I don't think the Raiders can get out of the first round or three first round picks without doing something hilarious. Yeah. And I think that I'm, I've got my eye on that as far as that goes. Okay, so let's talk about Sequin Barclay. You brought him up, and what I find fascinating is he was really good last year, really, really good. Sequin Barclay was an awesome player, and I don't think anyone feels good about the future of the New York Giants franchise. Right, right. Right.

Right. So, like, I just, I think running back is a unique position in that way where I think that it's, it almost has no, like, Sequin Barclay being good last year was basically a fun fact. It had no real bearing on their ability to win and lose. Right. If you redrafted right now, I mean, I guess the, it's funny, I started that question and I would say, where would he go? But if the giants were picking, they would just take him again. I think he would still definitely know in the first round. You just keep doing the redraft and Dave Gedimo just keep taking him and refused to trade down.

I mean, I think it was offensive about the Barclay pick was. okay, running back goes second overall, that's fine. It's not fine, but in this hypothetical, it's fine. But he was so aggressively dismissive of anyone who suggested he should trade down. He didn't even take a call for it. And I think that if you're going to take it running back, you have to either, A, do it later, obviously,

or B, just try to find a way to not overdraft a running back. You can overdraft a defensive end, overdraft a quarterback. In some cases, overdraft a wide receiver. if you want or whatever, cornerback, I'm fine with it. But I think that you start getting in a situation

where if you're not only drafted a running back high, but willingly losing value, that's where it's offensive, man. Everybody needs a good running back. I'm pro Alvin Kamara. Right.

Okay? I'm pro James White. James White is the greatest receiver in a history of football now. But you can find those guys later and scheme it up. You have coaches, do that. The shelf life is so short for running back.

So having done this research, where are you on the running back position? And where are you on a player like Barclay's value to a team? Yeah, I mean, there's a reason I think that people have coined the term running backs don't matter. I don't. And I think that's it's a little bit. Yeah, I mean, that's something that's like on Twitter and in the fantasy. football community in the analytics community. It's kind of like a catchphrase running backs don't matter.

I think that is maybe like slightly overly dismissive because having a good running back like you were talking about, you know, it's good to have a good running back. But overall, the impact that a good running back can have on your team, generally speaking, it is minimal to, I mean, just like last year for example, like when Todd Gurley went down and C.J. Anderson, or he didn't even go down. He just kind of got benched for a while. There obviously, we found out that his knee was, was having some, you know, issues with arthritis.

He was, he kind of went down, but did not officially. And so we all just sort of stared at him for a while. Right. And I think that was like the sort of, it was a very good example of, you know, you plugged in C.J. Anderson, who was literally on his couch at the start of the season. And they still played, you know, they, he, it wasn't a downgrade, necessarily. And so I think having a good running back is a good thing and having a great running back

is a good thing. But it's not a position to build your team around. And I think we saw that with the Giants. Like they just didn't get any better, even though they spent a second overall pick on Barkley. And he was great. He was very good. So to me, the sweet spot for taking a running back is like the second and third round.

That's the area where you can get a highly talented player. and an impact player, but you don't have to, it's not like you're building your team around that guy. I think like third round is perfect, really. I think that's where Kareem Hunt went. He came in and did really, really well for the chiefs. There's tons of examples in that range of guys that have come in and been very, very good players for their teams,

and you don't have to spend a first round pick for it. So long story short is, I think in this draft particularly, the second and third round is where a lot of running back. are going to come off the board. Dave Gettleman's having his pre-draft press comments right now, and I can't stop reading the tweets. Anything good? I mean, no. I'll say that much. No. Okay. So who, when we talk about someone like in Alvin Kamara, Cream Hunt, obviously, is in different discussion, but who is someone you're thinking about, who might be a mid-round pick that in seven months we're saying, how the hell of this guy dropped this far? Yeah. I think,

to me, that guy is probably Daryl Henderson out of Memphis. He was incredibly productive in college. I mean, he averaged, over the last two seasons combined, he averaged 8.9 yards per carry. I mean, just think about that. That was his average yards per carry. Hang on, what? Exactly.

How did this happen? Well, first of all, Memphis had one of the best offensive lines in the nation. So they were clearing, you know, lanes for him and all that. Should your team just draft everybody on Memphis? Memphis's offense was fun to watch, I'll tell you. But Henderson, I think, to me, is the kind of guy who he probably will fall a little bit. He's a little undersized. He's 58-208.

So he's on the, like, small spectrum, I guess, in terms of the running back position, a lot of teams tend to like their, you know, bell cow, quote, belcow guys to be in, like, the 215, 220 range. he's super explosive. He led the country and runs a 20 plus yard, 27. He had 27 20 plus yard runs last year. He had 12, 40 yard runs. So he's a home run hitter, downhill guy, one cut and go kind of guy. He's very explosive.

He's very elusive. And, you know, with player comps, it's always tough because, so I comped him to Devonta Freeman, just kind of in style and the way he kind of looks when he's running. Um, there's some stylistic, I think, similarities to Jamal Charles, too. Just, I mean, I don't, I'm not saying he's Jamal Charles, but I think Charles was a third rounder. And the knock on him was size. I think a lot, a lot of, you know, teams are, again, still looking past that. But, um, I mean, he's very smooth as a runner. He's, he's explosive. He kind of weaves through traffic. So stylistically, there's some similarities. I'm not saying

he's Jamal Charles, but obviously, I think just that that's a kind of type of player you can get like explosive, you know, kind of slashing type running back. I like him a lot. So I just want to go back to this Memphis thing. What the hell is going on there with 8.9 yards per kid? Come on. That's amazing. One of the things I used to, college football used to do my favorite sport. And because the NFL is what it is, I have a lot of, a lot less time to watch college football. So I can only check in on it every couple weeks or every couple months.

And one of the hidden joys is just finding out randomly that Memphis's offensive line is historically good. You're just like, what the hell? Yeah, I know, right? All right. So there were a slew of running back to the combine who were really, really athletic. And that was one of the things that set Alvin Kamara apart was obviously his athleticism in the combine. It's what got him on my radar. But when you look at those guys or anybody who could be a gem, even maybe even past the third round?

Certainly, yeah. There's a couple guys, Justice Hill out of Oklahoma State. Yeah. He's probably, that's one of my guys. He's probably like a third rounder. I would say a third or fourth rounder. Well, probably a fourth rounder. But it just kind of depends.

Obviously, it only takes one team. But he has outstanding athleticism. He's, again, he's kind of the same mold. He's a slasher. He's very explosive. He had a 40-inch vert. He had a 4-40-yard dash. You know, he's one of those guys that is very, very explosive.

Actually, there was a time for a while last couple years ago when he was running ahead of Chris Carson. on Oklahoma State's offense. So, you know, he's a very interesting guy. He's only 198 pounds at the combine. So, again, you worry a little bit about the size. But he's a guy to keep in mind. And then let's see here. The other guy that's pretty interesting,

I think he'll be in the fourth round is Rodney Anderson out of Oklahoma. He has had injury issues in college. I think he had like a very bad knee injury. And so like the health thing is the big. question, I think, with him. But he's 6'1, 2.20. He's very, he was, you know, when he was on the field very explosive.

He's a very good pass catcher. So I think a lot of people, they really like him in that range because, you know, he's going to fall because of the injury background. But he's athletic. He's big. He was in, you know, he was a pass catcher in that offense. And I think he's the type of guy. He's kind of like stylistically, I don't know who he'd remind me of necessarily.

he's, I guess, kind of in the Joe Mixing range. He's not as laterally explosive, I think, but he's kind of just like that, like, you know, three down skill set where he can catch passes and do all that. So I think he's another interesting kind of like mid-round guy to keep in mind. The guy that I think you'll really like and who could go in the second round is Miles Sanders out of Penn State. He was actually Saquan and Barclay's backup for a couple of years. he's a former five-star recruit, like one of the top prospects in the country.

Danny, when you say I would like him, is it because he's actually not a running back? Well, those are the prospects I like. He is a good. He is good in the passing game. Yeah. So he's another like just freak athlete. He ran a 4-49 at 211 pounds at the combine, 36-inch vert, very good broad jump, super good, like, 3-cones. 6.8.93 cone.

So he's really agile. I think he came into the conline, probably like a third or fourth round, maybe even fifth round pick, but he's probably going to be like a second or third round or now just because he was so athletic. And people kind of, he got onto people's radars a lot.

Ian Rappaport just tweeted this. Memphis running back Darrell Henderson is working his way into the latter half of the second, or the first round, excuse me. He's visited several teams in the late 20s and early 30s, including the Rams Eagles, Raiders and Cardinals 33, one to watch.

That'd be great if the Rams took a first round right there. I think he would fit them. Do they have a, hold on. The Rams do, yeah. The Rams have 31. Yeah. For some reason, I have,

I confused this year with last year, which is just common. Eventually, any listener under about 25 needs to understand that eventually all years and all drafts just combine into one big thing. So, did the Rams still have their Brandon Cook's pick?

You know, I have no idea. Because there's literally no difference between 2018 and 2019. Okay. So let's change gears a little bit. Because I'm intrigued with a couple of teams in this draft. The Raiders are one. They basically control the draft. Three first round picks.

Yeah. The Giants are another. Two first round picks. One of them, they got the 17th overall pick for trading one of the best players in football. Congratulations. Congratulations to the New York Channel. And then I would put the Cardinals and the Bills here because they both need to sort of paths forward. So what we're going to do here, we're going to play a three-man weave game now, which is going to meet me and you.

What we're going to do is we're going to figure out the best path forward and how these teams can can really improve themselves over the next six months. And what the pick is in the first round where they go from really bad. to not playoffs, but eight wins. And I'm not saying that one player can add five wins. They can't unless it's a quarterback, and even that is quite a stretch. I'm just saying, what is the player that gets them on the path to success the most?

So let's start with the Oakland Raiders. Three first round picks. We already threw out Josh Jacobs there. And that's really for comedy's sake. But if you're looking at the Raiders right now, what possibilities do you see for those three first round picks that could get them from joke to, oh, my God, we're the New Indianapolis Colts. We have two all pros as a rookie.

That's a good question. I think with number four, it's going to come down to like three guys. It's going to be either Quinn and Williams, who I think he could potentially fall to number four. They don't need an interior pass rusher quite as much because they've got Maurice Hurst from last year. They've got some guys in there that are kind of playing well. So they really need edge, obviously, after trading Khalil-Max. So to me, the most likely scenario is it's either going to be Josh Allen at that spot or there's a slighter chance that Montes Sweat will intrigue them enough.

But I think it'd probably be Josh Allen. He's a kind of high-impact guy. I think that could come in and play from day one. Do a couple different roles for them. He's really athletic. So I think he probably would be, to me, the most likely pick at number four. and I think he'd be a big impact pick. So one of the things that I think we need all root for is them getting a pass rusher at four

and him hitting so that John Gruden can stop with the bit where he says, Yeah, it'd be really nice to have. It'd be really nice, yeah. Oh, man, really wish we could have a guy if you'd get home on the quarterback. Oh, my God. That bit was funny like once, and then he was doing it into like November. I love it. Okay, second pick for the Raiders.

So then after getting an edge player, at number four, then they have a pick at 24. I think they still probably want to, like, add to their defense. Because they've done a lot of stuff their offense this year. Obviously, the biggest one is adding Antonio Brown. If they add, like, a corner at number 24, I think that would make a lot of sense. Like, there's a chance Grady Williams could fall that spot. DeAndreis Baker and-

Can we talk about Grady Williams for a second? Sure. Are you concerned about his tackling? No, not really. really, to be honest. I mean, I think it's something that he'll have to improve on, but it's a passing league. You have to be able to cover. To me, his coverage skills are really what he separates him. And he's not like, in coverage he can tackle it. It's kind of his tackling against the run that people have, I think, a problem with more. And so, I mean, it's certainly something that you have to

think about. But he's so good in coverage. He's so, like, physical and long. I think that the other trades definitely kind of outweighed the other ones. But there is some, there's some pretty wide ranges, I think, for Williams. I think, you know, he could fall all the way into the bottom of the first round, potentially. All right. I've just heard there's some people I trust who are, who are not in on Grady Williams. I think that's fair. And I've heard the same thing. You know, it's, it's certainly a concern. It's not something I am as concerned about, but, you know, you just never really know with NFL teams, but I think he's still one of the top corners in this class. I mean, every, every prospect has a, there are no, like, perfect prospects, you know, so

it's one of those things where team has to kind of figure out how big of a deal it is and if they can coach him up on it and all that. So if they don't like him, if they don't like Williams, I think D'Andre Baker, who is a very good tackler and a very physical tackler could be an option there. And then Byron Murphy's sort of right in the middle. He's a good tackler. He will kind of overrun plays at times and, you know, kind of fly around and miss tackles. But he's very instinctive. He's good in zone. There's three very good,

I think, cornerback prospects that could be around there in the 24 range. I think if they go with a corner that helps them, you know, in a very crucial area and they could potentially like,

you know, a lot like the Saints did a couple years ago because obviously they have Drew Prez that helps a lot, but the Saints were able to turn their defense around essentially in one season because they added a few very high impact players. I mean,

that's the thing. And that's the path forward for a lot of these, teams. Again, the Colts and the Saints are bad examples for these particular teams because both the Colts and the Saints have elite elite quarterback. Which is a huge impact. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But by the way, those are highly paid quarterbacks too. These are not discount guys. These guys on big, big contracts. Yeah. And they were able to essentially remake their franchise with one draft. And it was amazing to watch. And that can happen now. That can happen. This is a rookie league

now. This is a rookie contract league and it can happen. Now, I need to talk by the Giants for a second, but I want to preface it with this. I just saw this tweet. Golden Tate said that Sequin Barkley beat him yesterday and Connect 4. Uh-oh. In five moves. I don't know. I don't know. Doesn't it literally takes four moves to get? Yeah. So what was Golden Tate doing. I'm sure, so the stuttle blood here is that Sequin Barkley is very good at Connect 4, which I'm

sure is true. I'm ready to believe it. But you have to be really bad. You have to be ready to get your doors blown off. If you're going to leave him five moves. You can just play prevent defense and get to like 10, right? It's literally, I believe it's literally

impossible to do a diagonal connect 4 in only 4 moves. So it's literally four straight up and down. How did you miss that? If I was playing against the best Connect 4 player in the world, okay? I'm not, I don't, I haven't played Connect 4 in a very long time. And all I was doing was playing not to lose.

How many moves could I get to? Like 12? I know the answer. Yes, yes. The Connect foreheads, the real, the real Connected foreheads can let me know the answer to that. But if I was just playing Prevent defense, almost like the chess thing, right? Like you just move your pawn around and then, you know, some chess master deep blue just just owns you but you can get to like you know six moves or whatever if you see three red whatever they are coins in a row put put one of yours on top of it yeah that that's

to me that's your strategy i'm not i i feel i feel worse about golden tate now why would he tell people that that's not as that's pretty bad man yeah i'd keep that to myself all right now let's talk about the Giants as a football team. If you want to call them that. Two first round picks. Yeah. Congratulations, as I said, I'm getting the 17th overall pick.

They've got number six and number 17. Yep. Path forward for them. I mean, the obvious answer is quarterback. I think they have to take a quarterback at some point here. Would you trade up? Well,

I don't know if they might not need to. It depends on if teams are going to trade in front of them to get Haskins. It feels to me like... It all depends on what you're doing with the... What's happening around it? I mean, if Haskins stock is so high that he could go at three or whatever, somebody could trade down, then you really have to think about it.

The weird thing about Haskins... The teams in front of them do not necessarily... I mean, I... See, there's some wild cards here, okay? Sure, sure. Let's put the idea of a trade off to the side for a second. The Cardinals might take a quarter back. The 49ers probably will...

not. Right. They've got two. They've got one who gets a lot of money and is good and one who's just to play action lord. The Jets will not. The Raiders could. Maybe. Easily. Yeah. Maybe. And then what about the bucks, dude? Like, I know this whole thing is like, we hired, they hired Bruce Ariens to fix James Winston, but James Winston is not under contract. Um, he's in his fifth year, right? After his fifth year option. Yeah. I'm, I mean, yeah, I, I've, I've certainly the chance. Yeah. There's certainly the chance. I mean, I'm sorry, I haven't seen James Winston play so well that you build your franchise around them. Right.

The thing that I guess people probably are not talking about the Buccaneers all that much right now is everything. Oh, that's a surprise. Well, apart from just being the Buccaneers. But, I mean, Ariens has talked up Winston to the point where you actually believe that he, like, really loves Winston. Yeah, I mean, I guess, dude. But I once, I won't, before they traded for Carson Palmer a couple years ago, the Cardinals, I was at the owner's meetings, and Drew Stanton was the only quarterback on the roster. And if you listen to Bruce Ariens talk about Drew Stanton, you would have thought he was Dan Marino.

Well, that's fair. So I think we, yeah, then we can definitely include the Buccaneers as a potential quarterback landing spot. I haven't really thought about them that much for that, but I think it's definitely in the realm of possibility. So bottom line, yeah, I mean, they might have to trade up. But if you sort of read the tea leaves on stock right now, I think, Haskin's stock seems to be falling lately, which is kind of surprising. And guys like Daniel Jones and True Locke are rising. It's almost like a foregone conclusion it feels like that Daniel Jones is going to be a first round pick.

And I know Daniel Jeremiah gave the giants Daniel Jones in his last mock. So it's super interesting. obviously that's not who I would pick for them. I think that would have the potential to set them back a couple seasons. But with the decision making that they've had over the last couple years, it wouldn't surprise me either.

Give them two players at one at six, one at 17 that is their best case scenario if they want to improve this year. My opinion, Haskins at six. Because I like Haskins. I think he has the potential to grow into a very good quarterback.

And in this situation, it would actually be really good because you could sit behind Eli and give him a chance to kind of like get his feet under him. Again, the deal is he's only had one season of starting experience. So he's still pretty raw. Hasn't been through the ringer in terms of a lot of different scenarios and dealt with a lot of, you know, hard times and things like that. So like get him in there and get some experience under him, get him to learn the offense and all that.

I think that's actually a pretty good situation for him. For 17, I mean, they could go in a million different directions. You know, obviously they need receiver. now that they've traded away one of the best players in the NFL, I think they could go with, I kind of like the idea of giving them like Devin White or Devin Bush at number 17

because having a high impact, very, very fast linebacker, sort of picture Bobby Wagner impact. I'm not saying these guys are as good as Wagner necessarily, but they have that skill set, you know, the very, very athletic sideline to sideline speed. Danny, half this pot has been you just tantalizingly comparing a player to a superstar.

And then me getting fired up. And then the next thing you say is, well, I'm not actually saying that. So we're just going to edit out. We're going to edit out all the times that you couch these comparisons. And I'm just going to let you know that you just compared a guy to Bobby Wagner 100% with no caveats. Yeah. That's my boiler plate. Boiler plate caveat with everything is when you're making comparisons.

They're not true. You have to say, I'm not saying he's this guy. But. Well, right, right, right. Well, I mean, it's almost like, yeah, I did a thing a couple years ago, I was a Los Angeles Journal about Rex Ryan's comparisons to people. And he would just, he had no caveats. And he would just be like, man, DeMario Davis, that's some, that's some Ray Lewis level

stuff. And it's like, okay, guys, that's enough. I remember, so a couple of years ago, this is kind of a random story, but the Seahawks picked Kevin Pierre Lewis in like the fourth round or fifth round or something like this. And very athletic, whatever. you know, he was, he had some, he definitely had some issues in coverage and things like that. And I remember they interviewed the scout. I can't remember which scout it was, but he compared him to Patrick Willis or Navarra Bowman.

I can't remember which one. It was like one of the best reliant back in the NFL at the time. The best traits of both. And everybody glommed on to that. And I think after that the Seoxel stopped letting their scouts talk during the draft because it was like, okay, let's not set unrealistic, expectations here. And so, I mean, it's, I think it's more interesting to compare players to, like, their upside, you know? And so I think like Devin Wyatt or Devin Bush,

they both have the upside to be like all pro, I think, linebackers. But obviously, these are prospects. And so the floor is, is quite a bit lower also. All right. I'm in a coma. I need to read this tweet. Dave Gellman on the Kansas City model of grooming quarterbacks. Quote, how about the Green Bay model of Aaron Rogers fall into them when they have Brett Farve and he sits. for three years.

Oh, God. Eli forever, baby. Eli forever. Why are they so incredibly loyal to Eli? I'm all in. This is great. One of the benefits of not having an NFL team and being able to look at it

from sort of a journalistic neutral perspective is you can just judge everything on its merits. And this is objectively hilarious. All right. Cardinals and Bills. anything anything stick out to you i mean i guess i guess kailer murray is is is a transformative type of player if you're the cardinals yeah they could get you into relevance is that is there anybody else uh that has the possibility there one or is there possible of them trading down and and getting kind of a transfer yeah two two guys who could who could make an impact or is there

any scenario just i guess you could see where where things uh turn around in a way that doesn't involve them taking the first overall pick it off. Yeah, I think the two scenarios, like you outlined, take Murray. I think he has the potential to be a transformative player. To me, that's the most likely scenario to take Murray right there. They can deal with the Rosen situation, you know, as you laid out in your article at the ringer, you know, they could either- The ringer.com.

They can either hold on to him and then try and build up his trade value going forward to give Kyler some time, you know, whatever, to develop. Maybe that's the Green Bay model. Just Rosen playing for three years when color Murray sits. Yeah. But I do like Murray at number one. I think that has the potential to change their franchise.

And then like you said, if they can trade out of number one, if they don't like Murray, if they want to keep Rosen, you could get a haul for that number one pick. And it's like, you know, we've seen teams in the past do that

where they trade back and get like two or three first round picks going forward. And, you know, that has the potential. It's a longer term, I think, kind of thing because you're building your roster through that. Whereas I think Murray has the potential to like be

more immediate, not immediate, but like quicker solution to like kind of their offensive problems. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of like if they could trade back and get a couple first rounders, get a couple very good defensive players or whatever, then that has the most high impact potential

for them. Okay. Bills. I think they got D.K. MacC. Macath. Not D.K. MacF. Okay. I won't give him D.K. McCaff. Were you thinking about it? Sure. Yeah. I think he fits, I think he fits what they're trying to do. I don't know, I don't know if it's necessarily that.

Not change direction? No, throw deep all the time. Either run it or throw deep. I think in this class, going defensive line at that spot could make a lot of sense for the bills. They're at number nine. This is a situation where if Ed Oliver falls to that spot, that's potential for them. I think, you know, He could be a big impact player for them. I think there's going to be a couple edge players potentially at that spot, like Brian Burns or potentially Montess White.

I doubt it, but he could potentially fall to that spot. You know, so I think they could end up adding a very high-impact defensive lineman at that spot. I think that would maybe be apart from a D.K. Metcast scenario, I think getting a stud defensive lineman would be kind of, like the ideal for the bills at that spot. Which of those teams is the most likely to rebound in 2019? I think, I think the Raiders, honestly. Whoa!

Yeah. I'm in. Three first round picks. I'm in. Okay. I'm ready to be talking to anything with John Cruz. I mean, honestly, like, I remember I wrote a column. I compared him to the sort of the John Mullaney bit, the horse in the hospital.

I totally remember that, yeah. I'm ready to, I'm ready to. I'm ready to believe anything about the Raiders draft. They could package those picks for some crazy veteran. They could, I just, anything is employed. I don't remember anything like this because I have no, I also think that there's an element of Gruden where I think that his statements and his actions are completely separate.

And so I actually don't know if he's anti-analytics and all that stuff. I think this is a little more thought out than we think. On the other hand, I have no idea what's going on. with John. All right, Danny Kelly, thank you for joining us. All right, thank you.