The Ringer NFL Show - Ep. 80: Day 2 of the NFL Combine

Episode Date: March 3, 2017

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Danny Kelly team up in Indianapolis to discuss how the combine has changed since last year (01:00), John Lynch and the 49ers' interest in safeties (07:45), the quarterback situation for Hue Jackson and the Cleveland Browns (12:10), and the value of Brandin Cooks (18:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode is brought to you by our college basketball podcast, Tied Up. As March Madness quickly approaches, make sure to catch Mark Titus and Tate Frazier on the Ringer University podcast. You can subscribe to Ringer University by going to iTunes.com slash The Ringer or wherever you get your podcasts. To The Ringer and a film show. My name is Robert Maze. I'm a writer at The Ringer. And sitting awkwardly out of couch with me in Indianapolis, is Danny Kelly. Danny, how are you?

I was wondering if we were going to mention that. We're both kind of just chilling out in the hotel room right now in Indianapolis. And yeah, it's great. I'm doing great. So this is your first day here. And before we started the show, we were doing some pre-production and conversation. And you mentioned to me that you were kind of shocked by how different the combine is this year. Yeah.

And I don't, the reason that we're here is about provides people with some insight about what this is actually like. So what did you mean by that? So the last two or three years that I've come here, they've, they help, they hold everything in Lucas Oil Stadium. Yes. It's in like the, I don't. don't even know what you call it like the front area yeah yeah of the stadium you know um so that's where everyone goes now it's in the convention center so it's in a different location which is just it's fine it's just different um but they changed the format too so now instead of like last year

they would cycle players through three or four at a time you have a lot of time to talk to each guy um you don't miss many players like if you want to get a list of like 30 or 40 players in a day you You talk to all of them. Yeah, you can do that. So this year, what they did was they would send out, I don't even know, like, eight or nine guys at the same time. And they'd all talk at the exact same time. So they don't stagger anything. So it's just a little different.

Yeah. Like, and then done. And there's like way more podiums for each guy to talk. It's just a different vibe this year. And it's not necessarily bad because it's the energy was up, I feel like, a little bit this year. Just because it's in the convention center. They're doing it right next to. the NFL experience for all the fans

and then they're also doing it next to I think the bench press was going on right next to us. You can hear people yelling at each other. So it's kind of cool in that sense but I think the player availability factor, it's down. I mean, it's just not quite the same.

It is. And the player availability often isn't interesting especially when you talk about the guys at the podium. I always enjoy talking to some of the smaller school guys, whatever, you just kind of hang around. You hear some interesting stuff about them. and people that have read up on them. That is where they're a little looser

because you're actually sitting down and having, it's not a real conversation, but it's closer to one. Right. And now that is just totally strict out as my understanding. So congratulations, National Football League. You made the combine even more uninteresting

for those attending it. Yeah. And I missed, it's funny because I missed half of the day with all the GMs and coaches too. So like, now I'm like, okay, well, what are we going to do tomorrow? But there's still,

tomorrow we're just going to sit and wait for Marvin Lewis. The one guy. He's the one guy. Yeah. No, but it's still great. I mean, there's so much to do. There's, you know, it's fun to talk to everybody, see everybody, you know, get insights from different people that you don't like see in person every day. And so that's definitely a lot of fun. A couple guys that, you know, this was an interesting crew today. I feel like even maybe more so than yesterday. You know, Shanahan talked yesterday, which I wanted to see stuff like that. But today you had McVeigh.

Yep. He was good. This is the first time he's done anything like this. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure he's talked to the local media when he got hired. but that the local Ramos media is kind of in flux period just because it's kind of a new thing It's not as assembled as it would be otherwise You know it's not like getting high by the jets So today I mean he's sitting there in front of 30 40 reporters And giving a press conference where he's getting questions like this for the first time

And I thought he looked a little bit like you could tell it was his first time early And then he settled in by the end He was I would say he was someone I think the GM said he's like a ball of energy or whatever You can tell he was like Like, you know, it's like he'd done a line or something beforehand. I know that he hadn't, but, well, probably anyway, but he definitely was like amped up, ready to go. I thought it was interesting. I want to go back and read the transcripts.

I watched the interview, but I want to go back because he talked a lot of X's and O's for like, you know, like nowadays, most coaches. It's just like super vague general stuff that was put you to sleep. What kind of stuff that you said? That was interesting. Oh, he was just talking about like using the different offensive weapons. I think he was talking about, you know, just different protections and things like that. I don't remember exactly what it was, but I remember thinking, okay, this is kind of interesting. Sure.

He's like saying, you know, he's talking some X's and O's. And so I don't have a great anecdote off the top of my head. But it was definitely some interesting stuff. I thought that Adam Gase did that a little bit too. Peel back the curtain a little bit to kind of like, play calling. You talked about how he and Tannahill kind of have a collaborative process where, you know, Tain Hill's allowed to give

his input and goes back and forth. He was talking about trying to get Jordan Cameron integrated into their offense. And he was saying like, oh yeah, I had to go back and watch Cleveland tape so many times because I was trying to figure out how they got him 80 catches that year, you know? And so that was that's actually really interesting. So it's like he's essentially saying, well, my shit's not working. So like,

what are we going to do? You know what I mean? And it's probably more a reflection of you know, I guess Cameron was kind of a flash. Yeah, I mean, they have so many weapons in Washington, or in Miami. Another thing he says that I thought was funny, they were asking him about Kenny Stills. He goes, do you feel good that he's going to be back? And he goes,

sometimes I do, sometimes I feel like crap about it. He goes, I hate free agency. He was, yeah. It makes sense that a coach would. Yeah. He's like, I have this guy and I would just don't have this guy. It's a good thing overall, but it is funny that he just came. I hate this. I felt like he was probably the most honest.

It felt like he was being the most honest. And so that was refreshing. Play calling is an interesting topic. I think a lot of people are just inherently, a lot of people inherently want to know more about that. Yeah. It just drives interest just because it's such a bizarre kind of intricate process. It's like chess.

I mean, it's strategy. We don't know a lot about it. Yeah. And somebody was asking, Shanahan yesterday, you know, did you ever consider not? And you talk to people about why you wouldn't. And he said that I didn't consider not doing it because I feel like you should be the person they hired you to be.

Right. And the person that they hired is, I am a play call. Or that is what I do. Right. So I get that. And I don't, we've seen that work. You know, Sean Payton does a fine job. But Sean Payton coaches the offense.

And we've seen how the defense goes. Yeah. And McVeigh, he essentially said today, I mean, more or less admitted, I'm not going to do anything with the defense. Oh, yeah. I hire Wade Phillips for a reason. That's his purview. He can do that.

And that's part of the reason they like him is because Phillips is there's no like, you don't have to wonder if he's going to be good. Yep. Like Phillips, his reputation precedes him. So he's essentially turning over that whole side of ball to Phillips. So that'll be really interesting.

It's kind of curious with San Francisco. They're on the opposite end. You know, I know we talk about how McVeigh is 31. Chas is 38. And they hired 70-something to Wade Phillips. The guy that San Francisco hired to be their defensive coordinator, Robbins-il lost 38.

Right. And he's never done it before. Yeah. So they're kind of going. going an opposite direction. There's just all hopeful, youthful energy, you know, new guys, let's really attack this. And the Rams just kind of said,

we want to make sure this one side is locked down 100%. Yeah. Yeah, and that, the 49ers are another really, really interesting thing. And that's one of the things that I talked about in my recap, which will be going up at the ringer tonight, which is Thursday night. I find it, the whole Lynch hiring to me is so fascinating. Totally.

because, you know, he's coming into the, he's coming into the GM, the managerial part of the game without any, without any experience as a scout, without any experience as a manager. You know, he was a player, which is huge in terms of evaluation. I think like he understands position. But, you know, it was kind of just like, we don't have any clue what he's going to be like. But when I was talking about it today,

you know, John Schneider talked about yesterday, how he would pick John Lynch's mind about evaluating, safeties over the last couple years, which I found really fascinating. And then when you think about it, when they're switching to the Seahawks defense, they just got a really good safety evaluator in theory. And that's like really important for the San Francisco defense. That's the linchpin of their defense. No pun intended.

So I mean, like if they, if he can hit like obviously he has to hit on a quarterback, almost any front office does. But if Lynch can hit on that safety, that free safety spot, which is, so, so important in the, you know, the Seahawks style defense with the one highest safety in the center field. I mean, that could be huge for them. So that's potentially one really big advantage that Lynch brings. Yeah, it's a marriage of scheme and an understanding of scheme and talent that I didn't

even think about previously. Right. In fact that that's what they're doing. They have a defense that you need those guys, the fact that he's talked to Schneider about it. Yeah, that's really fascinating. We'll see if it actually matters. Right.

You know, there's no guarantee that a guy that played the position necessarily. knows more about it than an actual evaluator would. But it's not as if the Seahawks have done poorly in drafting safeties in the last five years. I mean, yeah. And so I asked Lynch about that today. He kind of, he didn't really answer my question because I asked him what's so difficult about evaluating safeties because that's what Schneider said.

And obviously Schneider's drafted Earl Thomas and Cam Chancellor. So he knows a little bit about it. But he didn't really say much about that. But he did sort of just allude to the idea that he knows what goes into position. and he knows, like he was giving Schneider notes on, like, what he thinks about when he's playing that position. He played quarterback in college, so he kind of understands the opposite, like his counterpart, you know, on the other side of the ball. So, I don't know. It's just fascinating to me.

Obviously, Lynch knows the safety position. And, you know, if he could hit on that spot, that could really pay huge dividends for them. Obviously, they have to do the quarterback, too. And also, there's a ton of safety's available in free agency. You can go out and get a guy like Daron Harmon or if you want to be. bigger guy like a Cyprian or a dude like Tony Jefferson they may have all the money to spend

yeah all the monies and apparently this is like one of the best safety classes in years sure you know I don't know how deep it is but like at the top there's some really really good guys hooker and then and Adams yeah Adams that's right so I don't know he's a guy from Washington too

ironically Baker yeah and he's kind of like Tyron Matthew style like a little bit smaller guy but but you know just a instinctive playmaker so I don't know It's going to be, I'm really excited to kind of see what Lynch does. I mean, right now we just have no clue. And maybe he'll turn over. There's no way we could.

Maybe he'll turn over a lot of the quarterback evaluation to Shanhan because Shanahan kind of just knows what he's doing. I mean, you absolutely should turn that evaluation over. And I think that, you know, that position in that spot is going to be a huge part of what goes into this draft overall. And today we started hearing the quarterbacks come up for the first time, really, by name, because they were getting measured, all that kind of stuff. So Lynch was asked about Tribesky.

I was there. about Kaiser. So now we're getting into, do you like this guy? I mean, they're not going to answer it, but now the conversation has begun. And it kind of happened twofold today. You had Lynch give that kind of lightning rod quote about how Kaiser blew the doors off his interview.

And then there was a report for Mary Kay Cabot at the K. The Cleveland Plain dealer that said that the Browns were interested in Trubisky. And then you listen to Hugh Jackson talk today. There's a chance that none of this matters and it's all bullshit, but this is what's starting now. The ball will get rolling here as we hear these guys' names for the first time and as these teams are starting dig into who they want, why they want them. Yeah.

So the thing that kind of struck me about Hugh Jackson, and he was the first guy to talk this morning, he mentioned, I think it was three separate times, twice in his podium interview. And then again, when we were doing like the little, he like meets him formally. Gaggle. Yeah, whatever it is, where everyone stands around in a circle

and doesn't let him leave. He talked about how, you know, he really, really believes strongly that you build a foundation and a support group around a quarterback before he was essentially saying, like, I'm not going to just throw a quarterback in and expect him to do well. Like, I want to build a team around a quarterback. Essentially, it's the same deal of what we talked about, what kind of like, Dak Prescott. Like, he came in with like an amazing sport group and that was part of what was allowed him to be so good this year. And we saw what Andy Dalton was able to do in Jackson's offense when,

And he had, you know. The perfect group of players. Right. The best pass protecting offensive line in the NFL. AJ Greed. A.J. Green. Marvin Jones was their number three receiver.

Yeah, Tyler Eifert. They had two good running backs. They had a really good running game. Like it was like that's how he got this job in the first place. Like to me this, to me what he's saying is like, this could be a total smokescreen. But like, I'm more interested in building a team around like that can, we can finally add a quarterback into the equation when it's ready. But right now, they're still like, you know, two years away from that or whatever.

And this is a weird quarterback class in the first place. Like a lot of guys have great potential, but there's no surefire guy right now. If you think that Mitch Trubisky is your dude and you love him, then you take it number one. Right. And that's fine. I'm cool with that. I don't know if he's the guy. That's not what I do.

I'm not a quarterback evaluator. And a lot of the people who are paid to be quarterback evaluators aren't either. So I don't mind saying that. But what happened yesterday is that a Browns writer, kind of a veteran Browns writer whose name I don't know actually, asked Sashi Browns, would you be comfortable rolling with the three quarterbacks on your roster into next season?

And that's it. And Sasha's like, yes. And the guy, his response was just amazing. He's like, why? Why would you say that? Why would you think that's okay? And they are just not in a hurry. So if the one problem I would have with,

And I understand Hugh Jackson's thinking about that. And I don't disagree with it. But I feel like if you, maybe next year you win five games by chance and you're the fourth pick and you don't have the catbird seat anymore and it's not up to you choose the guy you want. If you think he's the guy you want, take him at one. If you think he's okay but we need a quarterback, that's with the bullshit. That's it.

Yeah. And I mean, for all I know, all of this is, you know, just smokescreen upon smoke screen. There's no way. I listen to Lesneed talk about Case Keenum. year at the combine. I will never forget it for the rest of my life. Yeah. And I mean,

no team is going to tell us exactly what they're going to do. Of course not. But my take was like maybe what Hugh Jackson is doing is like laying the groundwork for like, this is why we're not doing. This is why you're not going to see us. Like when we don't draft a quarterback, like don't be that surprised. Exactly. You know what I mean?

That's what you have to do. You kind of have to lay that groundwork, make sure that there's a soft landing spot for your fan base when you don't come away from with a quarterback from this draft and you have to say, we have to wait another year. For the second straight year when they've had like, you know, they had the number two pick last year. And they could have taken Carson West.

And now they have the number one pick. And I think, you know, fans are going to be clamoring for a quarterback. But I think his philosophy, this is just me like guessing and based on what he said. But that was pretty interesting to me. You make that Wentz trade seven days a week and twice on Sunday, if you're the Browns.

Right. You do it every single time. It doesn't matter what happens. That's not how you should make decisions. It's a process over his old business. And Carson Wentz isn't even that good, man. It's like he's fine. He could be a good quarterback.

Oh, Philly's going to be on you for this one. You do that every time. Yeah. And they are, that's what they're thinking is. We're going to go about this the way we're going to go about it. We're not going to overspend. We're not going to do this. And that's not a bad way to do things.

Eventually, the draft picks have to become real players. Right. It's as simple as it gets. If they don't, none of this matters. But the way you go about it and having kind of a staunch commitment to your idea of how you build a team is not a bad thing. I feel like when you get outside of who you want to be is when you screw up. Yeah.

I mean, we talked about this a couple of weeks ago when we talked about quarterbacks, but there's just two, there's several different philosophies about how you build a team. I feel like I'm beginning to be on the train where instead of taking a quarterback and building around them, you do the opposite. I'm starting to just feel like that's the better way to do it. But that requires an understanding. entire roster built, entirely built roster. Right.

Like, yes, I mean, that's hard too. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Right. Well, you can say, whether you're for the Cowboys, we'll just build the best offensive line. We'll just pick all pro offensive linemen every year. Yes. Easy.

And even if you picked offensive linemen every year, it's no guarantee they'd become all pro offensive linemen. I know that, yeah. Like, that's the problem. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. And that's, I think, what the Browns are doing. There are two downsides to me with that philosophy. The first is,

it takes a lot of time and a lot of organizations aren't given time. It seems like the Browns in this iteration, at least what people are saying now, they're going to be given that. They're not in a hurry. So that's the first thing out the window. The second is it's hard to find good players. I mean, that's really it. So, I mean, you can draft Des Bryant, Tyron Smith, Travis Frederick, and Zach Martin in the first

round. But if those guys don't end up being good, then none of that matters. Totally. So the other thing that I want to talk about before we get out of here, piece of news that came out today I thought was kind of interesting. ESPN, I believe it was Chris Mortensen, reported that Brandon Cooks was available to be a trade and there were teams looking into him.

I think this is worth talking about for a few different reasons. One, he's a big name. It's a former first round pick. He's a good player. Yeah, he's not a guy being shipped off for nothing. Right. So another reason that I think that it's worth talking about, aside from that, is that I feel like we're going to see this,

especially as the free agency world gets a little bit out of control. So if you're Tennessee, right, you have $60 million in Cap Space, you're in the top five. You've got a ton of money to work with. Wide receiver is a definite need. So you're looking at those names, Jeffrey, Deshawn Jackson, Troll Pryor, whatever.

So you are probably in play for those guys theoretically. And if you're going to trade for Brandon Cooks, you are in play for those guys because that's your mindset. But I'm sure John Robinson's sitting there thinking, all right, we have 18. Why would I give Alshan Jeffrey $15 million a year

or Deshawn Jackson, 12, because I think every number we're seeing reported is small based on how much money is available and how many guys got franchised. Why would I do that when I can give up a first-round pick, which yes, is five years of cost control, or even if it's second-round pick, whatever, a draft pick for a guy that I have under cost control

for two years at a small salary next year and his fifth-year option, which is not going to be that high the year after. Yeah, he was a first-rounder, right? Yes, okay. So you automatically have that. When you're giving a guy a free agent deal, you're pretty much giving him a two-year deal.

anyway, it's just going to be for twice as much money. Right. So I like that. I like that line of thinking. I think it's a creative way to not get into this bidding war, kind of let's see who can out bid everybody else for these guys that maybe aren't as attractive as a younger player on a better deal. Yeah, that's definitely, I mean, that's intriguing.

And it's always really fun to kind of figure out who we could put on the Titans offense. Sure, exactly. I'm not upset with Brandon Cooks. I don't think he's a superstar, but I think that he gets. gave them another element and he does it for much cheaper than Deshawn Jackson would. And he's, what's Brandon Cooks? 25? Yeah, he came into league young.

Yeah, he might be 24 actually. Yeah, and he's the, he's the take the top off an offense or a defense kind of guy. And I mean, that would just be a fascinating. Brandon Cook is 23 years old. 23? Yeah. Wow. Hey, I mean, it depends on how like important you view that club control, I suppose, obviously, you know,

the Seahawks have done trades with their first round pick and they essentially say this is what we're picking with our first round pick because we didn't see someone at that spot. They basically grade the free agents against the draft picks and say hey this guy's better. Cooks is better than any of the receivers in this class we'll just use our first round pick on cooks. That's a way to think about it,

but I think that's the wrong way to think about it in this way. You get five years of that first guy. And I asked Sashi Brown about this yesterday when we were talking about how much that cost control should play into value. And he was talking about Jamie Collins. He said, Jamie Collins is not a third round talent. Right. But because you know you have to give Jamie Collins a contract, that's a type of...

Diminishes his... So Brandon Cook's first round pick, he just was. And I think if Brandon Cook was in this draft, like this version of him, yes, he'd go in the first round. But that you can't think of it that way. Right. Because the guy you could get, even though it's more of an unknown, you're going to get five years of him. Totally. And if you're the Titans, and you have...

all this money. Maybe you don't think about that. But then suddenly, the Marriota contract comes up. Like, it's not, you shouldn't do that in the moment because it all comes due eventually. Yeah. Man, that would be really, yeah, he would be a really fascinating addition to that offense. I mean, we talked about Deshaun Jackson, you know, kind of being that guy. And they're similar style in terms of like they're going to have probably, you know, really, really high yards. Exactly.

Yeah. So, I don't know. That would be. fund. Do you think, do you think that's for real? Like, who knows? I guess they're just trying to get rid of too much like cost at their receiver position or something like he's unhappy. He said that he's unhappy. Oh, really? He's role there. Yeah. So I mean, that's part of it. There was kind of some drama. Yeah. So I think that's all part of it. And it's just, this is the way, I think that you're going to see more and more teams try to find value because with the way that money is going to be

spent, I think they're going to be smart teams that say, yeah, we have it, but why? Why use it this way when there's better ways that we can go about this. And I like that thinking. I mean, draft picks are valuable, but they're only valuable in the sense that you need to get players with them. So if you trade one for a player, that's exactly what you're doing. And you can say, you could talk about how, you know, the lack of club control of two or maybe three years diminishes the value. But you could also say the security and knowing this guy can get off press. We know this guy can catch. We know, like, we know what he is. Even though there is some risk, coherent in free agency just in general like you know fit and in club culture and all that but like

cooks has proven that he can do the things that's necessary at the pro level and so there's value there gropolo gropolo is 90 snaps brandon cooks probably had 90 catches this year right it's not you have 10 times as much the sample size yeah and the sample size with gropolo is still enough where we know more about him than we do about a college quarterback yeah let alone what we've seen from brandon cooks it's a huge difference exactly and i totally agree all right buddy that's that's a huge difference exactly and i totally agree. All right, buddy. That's all the time we got. I appreciate you doing this. I will, I'm be very excited for you to leave my room and not be sitting awkwardly on this caption than me anymore. All right. I'll do that now then. I'll talk to you later.

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