The Ringer NFL Show - Eventually, You Are What Your Record Says You Are (Ep. 183)

Episode Date: November 14, 2017

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark recap Week 10, including the Rams, Saints, and Vikings winning in unique ways (04:00); what the Cowboys' coaches should have done on Sunday (17:00); and how the Steelers can turn around their offensive struggles by changing the game plan for Big Ben (24:45). Then Danny Kelly joins the show to discuss some reasons why—even after the team struggled against the Browns—people shouldn’t sleep on the Lions (43:00) and how the Titans have snuck up on everyone in the AFC (50:15). Finally The Ringer’s Rodger Sherman explains why the 49ers winning was actually a bad thing (57:30) and Kevin makes a case for flexing better matchups to 'Monday Night Football' (67:45). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's the Ringer NFL show. Robert Mays here with Kevin. Kevin, holidays are fast approaching, and what better gift to give than tickets to a live NFL game. It's a good idea, but buying tickets to a game can be complicated and expensive. Yeah, but it doesn't have to be if you use Seek. They have great prices on tickets, and you can buy and sell with just two taps. Great, I'll grab you some tickets to see John Fox coaching those Bears Up in person. Yeah, that makes one of us, pal. I have no interest in seeing anything about the Bears up close in person. But for people who do still want to watch their team play live down the stretch, Seatkeek saves you time and money by searching multiple ticket sites to compare prices and find amazing deals.

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Go sign up and start playing all your favorite games absolutely free for 30 days. Thanks to GameFly for sponsoring today's episode. To the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. 10 weeks of NFL football behind us and luckily for us, buddy,

one more Miami Dolphins primetime game to dig into here. Well, we have three weeks of action and then another Miami Dolphins primetime game on a Monday night against the Patriots. The worst part is that it's been Thursday night and Monday night which is we have to,

we always started the show talking about those games. So we would have to purposely avoid it if we didn't want to talk about it. Talking a lot of dolphins football. What is there to say? Like this is just not a good football team. I thought it was funny.

I thought it was funny. I did a thing for the ringer.com about the most fun and least fun teams to appear on Red Zone. And obviously the dolphins were last. but the dolphins are third and fourth in red zone efficiency despite punting more than any other team despite basically being 31st in efficiency per drive

and the reason is because they never actually get to the red zone and when they do it's like who cares or it's probably in garbage time and they're literally the football version of the you know the guy pointing to the head meme like you literally that it's you can't screw up in the red zone if you never get to the red zone that's that seems to be their philosophy. It's a really good philosophy. It seems to be working out just perfectly for them. We'll talk about the Panthers a little bit further down the show here, just as we dig into the NFC playoff race. We've got a lot to cover today. The ringers, Roger Sherman, will be here to play a little

good idea, bad idea, with some interesting decisions and outcomes from the weekend. But before we do that, let's get to our four downs, our four biggest stories of the weekend. And Kevin, we'll begin today in the place where you live, Los Angeles, California. No huddle. Gough back to pass from his end zone, straight down the middle of the field. He's got a man, Robert Woods, with a nine from Jared Gough, and the Rams extend their lead on the Texans. So Jared Gough with another impressive outing Sunday,

the Rams rolled the Texans. He threw three more touchdowns. He gets 16 on the year. He's also leading the league in yards per attempt at 8.49. He wasn't technically dead last last year with his gentlemanly 5.3 because he didn't play enough. But that's the only reason he wasn't that bad.

If you told me that one person went from 5.3 yards per attempt to 8.5, I would accuse that player of throwing games. Yeah, I mean, that's the only explanation, but there is a very logical explanation. Do you know what it is, Robert? Huh. He played for Jeff Fisher. Yeah, we'll get into that a little bit.

The throwing games of NFL coaches. We want to talk about a few NFC teams that are just good in some very bizarre ways. and that includes Jared Goff now being a very reasonable NFL quarterback, but it also includes the Saints and the Vikings, which I wrote about a little bit on Monday. So, Kevin, of these three kind of bizarreo NFC contenders, which is the weirdest version of the team for you? Which is though with one thing where if you could have predicted before the year,

this would have been the farthest from reality. Case Keenham leading a top 10 offense, Jared Goff leading the league in yards per attempt, or the Saints defense being really good in running the ball all over people? Well, I saw a stat that I found interesting yesterday, Mike Rodak of ESPN. Saints ran the ball in 24 consecutive plays against Buffalo. That has not happened in an NFL game since 1989. I don't know.

That's amazing. I don't know what to think about the Saints because right now, I mean, if you were to, and this Red Zone thing is a good example, the story I wrote on Tuesday. So if you were informed before the season that the Saints were going to be said, seven and two rolling, beating a pretty good bills team by, what, 40 points, you would say that's the most exciting team in the league. But that's, the Breeze is throwing the ball over the place. It's like 2009, 2010, 2012, all that. Breeze is throwing the ball over the place. It looks like, you know, it looks like old times. That's not what this is. And it's almost, it's impressive

that, and I'm not going to sit here and say that Breeze, you know, reinvented himself or anything, but he is averaging 40 yards a game less than he was last year. He's obviously passing the ball less. He's not the, he's not the entire focal point of the offense. He still is. It's not like he's not Peyton Man in 2015

here, okay? But he is taking a reduced role in a way. I think that that's the most stunning thing to me. If you were to tell me the Vikings were good, I mean, after the first couple weeks of the season, we saw that Case Keatom was at least going to be able to get the

ball to his targets. His two receivers, Adam Theo and his Tobon Diggs, lead the NFL in deep receptions. And that's a testament to A, Keenan, but B, just those guys are freaking good. And so all three of these, I didn't expect, but the one I just didn't expect, just analyzing it now is just the Saints as ground and pound. It's incredible. So right now, where do you think Drew Breeze ranks in past attempts in the NFL? Not high enough. he's 10th. There we go. And that's just bizarre.

If you look at the all-time passing attempts leaderboard, like for a single season, in the top 16, he's on there one, two, three, four, five, six, seven times. Like, that's what they did. They threw it more than anyone else in the league and to have gone so far in the other direction. And it's not like this happens every week. I think we touched on this a little bit on Friday's show, just that Buffalo's run defense was the worst part of what they did and the Saints are running the ball so well. why not run it 30 times? And they did. But just to see them be willing to embrace that approach against

anyone is impressive and the fact that it's working so well. I mean, they're really getting what they want done on the ground. And it's one thing to try to reinvent yourself on the fly. It's another to do it so well, to do it just so thoroughly and effectively. And that's what's kind of blown me out of the water. I mean, they're third in rushing DVOA right now. And that is really impressive. As far as Drew Brees's passing attempts go, Drew Brees has five of the top eight single season passing yard

marks in NFL history. No one else appears twice in that top eight. And he's there five times. He's like one of these old time lead singers of a band and everybody

else just leaves the band and he just gets too much power and he gets to do whatever he wants. Do you know what I'm saying? I absolutely know what you're saying. I'm trying to think of the best example of that. A guy just like that hung on at the front and no one else is the same. Yeah, they just replaced everybody. Yeah, that happens all the time.

I just can't think of a good example. You're totally right. And I think that there's a chance they only get better. And like on Sunday, so you had Tehran Armstead back at left tackle, Larry Warfair is back at guard. That hasn't happened for many games this season. Armstead's either been hurt or Warford's been hurt for a couple games. I mean, this offensive line, everyone I've talked to,

takes about a year to understand the guys you're playing with. And they have two new starters this year. So it just feels like this is going to coalesce even more over the rest of the season. I mean, like, there's a chance that the Saints only get better for the rest of the year. And the way they look right now, that's a terrifying prospect. And now here's my question. Is Sean Payton the best coach in this batch? That's a really good question.

The answer to that is probably yes over the course of like the bottom. of their body of work, but I think that what Sean McVeigh has done this year is more impressive. Yeah. So I do want to talk about the Vikings very quickly and then the Rams a little bit also. But the Vikings, I wrote about them on Monday, just kind of as the ultimate example of this, because if you were thinking about how Minnesota would have been good this year, it would have been similar to the conversation about the Saints, right? Yeah. They're really good on defense because think about just the talent they have on that side of the ball.

That's where they're good. That's where they've spent and a hit. And then you'd say, okay, you know, if Bradford can stay healthy, their line gets a little bit better. if Dalvin Cook is like the centerpiece of what they do. Bradford hasn't finished a game since week one. Dalvin Cook hasn't played since week four. And this is like one of the best five or six passing offenses in the league right now. None of it makes any sense.

They only have two guys and they have one starter on their team that was a homegrown first round pick on offense. And it's Lequan Treadwell who's caught 13 passes in his career. The first round picks they made on that side of the ball, or let's say the top 40 picks. Dalvin Cook, Sam Bradford de facto, because they traded for him, Matt Kuliel and Teddy Bridgewater. None of those have worked out at all. And somehow they have this offense that continues to roll with Case Keenum,

an undrafted free agent and a guy they picked in the fifth round. It's just amazing they've been able to sustain this level of production with all just the hard luck stuff that's happened to them over the last 18 months. I just can't believe, and I don't want to keep hard from back to this Red Zone thing, but it's a good indication of sort of where you are as a team that can make big plays, make good plays, be efficient, especially within 20, 30 yards at the end zone. And when I was sort of doing the ranking, I had the Vikings obviously in the top 10. But, I mean, think about what would have happened if they had Dalvin Cook.

If they had not just Teddy Bridgewater, but if even had Sam Bradford right now. I mean, would they be number one? Would they be tied for the chiefs at number one? And that's kind of the question now about Bridgewater, right? We talked about it last week a little bit. I wrote about it. You have to kind of think, maybe the thinking should be, oh, we're doing so well with Case Keen and let's just roll with it.

Maybe there is some meat on the bone still. Should we figure out a way to make this offense even better? And based on reports, it seems like they are thinking that way. Jay Glazer said on Sunday night, even after Keenham threw for whatever and three more touchdowns and everything else, they're still considering going to Bridgewater, which lets you know that they do believe there's another notch to this. And considering they're a top 10 offense, that's incredible.

Like the idea that the Vikings want more out of their offense that's scoring 24 points a game and is like 8th in DVOA is just bonkers. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it just, it worries me rushing anybody back from injury in the middle of a championship chase. I totally agree. Always gives me. pause. Do you think they can win the Super Bowl

with Case, Keenum? No, but I don't think so on. I don't think so on. I don't think so on. I don't think they could win the Super Bowl with Teddy Bridgewater. That's fair. Teddy Bridgewater in 2017. 2018 is a different is a different animal. But I mean, it's just... I get what you're coming from. Yeah. You know, I remember not to harkin back to basketball

here, but, you know, when the magic made the 2009 finals, Jimere Nelson, who was the leader of the team, who was the most popular player in Orlando, significantly more popular than Dwight Howard, I might add. were on the right side of history very early on that one. And he tore his labor in January. And everybody was like, oh, man, I wish Jemir was a part of this.

And then we made the finals. Jemir was able to rush back to health. Like no one thought it was possibly practiced. And then Stan Van Gundy gave him not starters minutes, but just below. You know, basically as soon as he could be subbed in, he was subbed in. And in the game. And he probably cost us a couple games in the series. I mean, and Rayfer Alston is the reason you guys would have won the finals of 2005.

Rafer Alston was the reason we made it because it was almost like a Bordal thing. We played with him just existing. Point guardless basketball. Yeah, and then we let Hito and Richard carry the ball. And they were two 6-11 guys who could shoot threes. Yeah, my favorite thing about that magic team was that they gave that up. They decided that having Vince Carter was more important than this ridiculous matchup advantage. Listen, man, if you're, if we're going down in the 2009 magic office,

season wormhole, the rest of the podcast is canceled. Because this is a terrible series of events. This is going to be like a 40-minute debate. So we had to pull our sales and selves out of here. I wanted to talk one more thing before we move on. And that's just the way that the Rams have kind of devised this offense. My favorite play of the weekend was that Robert Woods touchdown where they faked. It was a play action pass.

They had Woods go in that orb motion faking like an end around. But instead of going behind golf, he ran back the other way for like this little dump off where he essentially walked into. the end zone. And it's just like, this is what they do every week. They have three or four of these that are just insanely drawn up, but it's all based around play action. And this just isn't an accident anymore. If I read you the first five guys in percentage of their throws that are play action this year, there is a theme among these players. Deshawn Watson, Case Keenham, let's ignore the Trevor Simeon is there. Jared Gough and Carson Wentz. Okay. Four of those five guys,

what are they? They are young, case Keenum isn't young, but they are quarterbacks outperforming what their expectations were coming into the season. This is not an accident anymore. Start running play action passes more. They work. Yeah, I mean, it slows the defense down. You know, we talk so much about how the modern defense has changed because everything is so quick that you need a gap pressure, how you have to get the ball out and, you know, 2.2 seconds

or else you're going to be mauled because there's just athletes everywhere. And that's such a. a guide post the rest of the NFL the fact that you have to do the quick passing but how do you stay back with the modern offensive lines with the modern NFL defensive athletes how do you stay back there

give time give routes time to develop and still complete the pass you do it with play action what's also it's about it creates space in the NFL game where the hashes are further out and you're wondering about how you're going to manipulate

the field horizontally one good way to that is by pulling linebackers up and being able to use the middle of the field. You're creating space for yourself and inherently by play design and just more teams, teams do not do that enough. Like watching Carolina yesterday and all the big hits they had off play action, Cam's like third to last in the league. Why? That's what they used to do so well.

I just don't understand why teams abandon it. And watching the Raiders struggle as much as they have, they're right down near the bottom. Like this stuff is easy to trace, man. I just don't get it. Listen, if we're going to get into why play callers are the way they are, that's a separate episode. Have you seen, have you seen the offensive coordinator around the NFL?

Let's, you know what? Let's talk about some of that. Let's talk about coaching in general. And we're going to do that on second down here as we look at a little bit past the division leaders in the NFC and chat about the wildcar race a little bit. That starts with Dallas and Atlanta from this week. Yeah.

Kevin, do we have a reason that Jason Garrett did not seem to think Chas Green needed some help over on that side rather than let him play most of the game and get roasted and then put Byron Bell in for 10 snaps? That seemed to be his solution. I want to say that I enjoyed Troy Aikman saying that Chaz Green maybe was the worst player he's ever seen. It was bad.

He said it was in all of the years of football, which implied like all levels of football. Aikman's seen a lot of football That's so true How many youth games do you think Akeman's watch? He went to two colleges He played a full high school career presumably And Chas Green was the pinnacle

That's really great And you know what? I don't blame him after watching that game So Jason Garrett I just don't understand what he's doing So this is the important thing And I feel like the fact that they're in the same division is a good point of comparison

the Eagles also lost their all-world left tackle. It's not as if they're replacing him with some stud. Like, Vaitai is, he's fine. He's acquitted himself just fine. They've done a good job of helping their left tackle by lining up tight ends over there, using backs to chip. Every single way you can help a guy who's outmanned against a really good pass rusher. And here's the thing, man.

It's not like Adrian Claiborne is 2004 Julius Peppers. He came into that game with 22 sacks in his career. Did you see what he said? Yes, I have one move. Yeah, I have one move and I used it. We'll get to Adrian Craibor in a little bit. I don't think I can go any other direction from my ringer of the week. But this is just one of those things where you watch that happen to Dallas.

And we talk about Ezekielion not playing and what that does to their chances. But then you start to realize if this supports us and the deck Prescott has starts to solely get shipped away, it doesn't matter how good deck is over the second half of the season. You can't just, that's not viable. You can't sustain offense if that's how you're going to treat your left tackle against a guy who weighs 280 pounds. It is not a pass rusher. Like that is a significant problem. Yeah, that's a significant problem.

I mean, does this game change your opinion of the Cowboys ceiling without Zeke? It changed my opinion of the Cowboys ceiling without Terran Smith. Right. I mean, it's like he's more important at this point because that's what they do. They just went into the game and we're just like, well, we just do what we normally do. Like, we leave our left tackle one on one against everybody.

That's just how this works. Are we putting Tyrant Smith in the Earl Thomas, Aaron Rogers, MVP, because we've seen what the team looks like with Adam race? Theoretically, yes. He's had a down season comparatively for him just because he's not healthy. Well, I mean, we just saw what happens when somebody else. else when a healthy guy who's not him plays. I usually put him in there this year.

I think he's been, you know, one step down. But for the most part, I would say yes. And if we're looking at the rest of this playoff picture in the NFC right now, now if you're Dallas and you start to, if you lose one more, you're in trouble. Because if Seattle is sitting at six and three, the Panthers are seven and three now, which eventually you are where your record says you are, especially 10 games into a season. What do we think about who's going to get those spots? feel any better about Atlanta?

What do you think about Detroit? I mean, this is such a crazy playoff picture in the NFC. I don't know what to make of it. Well, if I had to guess, remember, we did this in August and we both felt, we both did not feel great about picking the Cowboys to make the playoffs. I, yeah, I don't think I did I. I didn't remember now. And I said, it was right on the edge of me.

I didn't want to. We both did. We both did and we both didn't want to. That's fair. We both kind of were like, I guess. So you start looking at it. I mean, is it not, where do you put the Seahawks right now? I still feel better about them than I do about Dallas.

Well, I mean, it's going to be Seahawks, Panthers, and they may run away with it. Yeah. I mean, it just seems like it's going that way. If Dallas is going to look like that against not great Falcons defense, if Smith has hurt for a while, Ellie's going to be out for the, you know, those six games he's suspended for, you just start to feel like the Cowboys just aren't a team that even with some regression they could have been this year

Yeah I just I kind of see it I know it's a little chalky but I just see the two teams that have more than five wins at this point Running away with it I mean I just don't I mean the Packers obviously You're not going to do it Yeah Detroit looks fun sometimes

But I still don't feel great about them I don't feel good about Carolina either But they just keep winning It's kind of ridiculous Oh, yeah, it's not exciting. I don't feel like we're having a good time by picking that. But there is, this year, I don't see this kind of like gathering storm on the back end of the NFL, NFC playoff picture like I did with Atlanta last year.

I guess the Saints would be that team. Like this, all right, this is the team that like is really coming together as a scary contender. And it's the same kind of deal with Atlanta last year, right? Like, who the hell is going to want to go into New Orleans and play in a way playoff game? Like if somebody knocks off Philly something like that And they get to host the NFC championship game That is a tough road Yeah, but I mean I think the premise of the of the question there

I mean I don't know who's going into Philly and knocking them off I just don't see a lot of town the NSC It's what happened with Dallas last year No, I understand that but I mean I just think that There's no Aaron Rogers this year There isn't that Aaron Rogers magic bullet to take down the best team in the conference You're right I mean that's it's very true The way you go on the road and get upsets is you

you have either incredible luck or you have just a transcendent player. And obviously the luck you can't gauge, but not seeing a lot of transcendent players here in the NFC right now. If there's a Russell Wilson crazy game, like that's like I think the one thing where you could say, oh, I could see it happening. Right. Like Seattle has the firepower to do it on the right day,

which is that we never seem to know which Seattle team we're going to get on that given day. I just, I, I, do you know that the. Seahawks have given the second most first downs by penalty in the entire NFL. That's fun. That's a good way to be. That must be such a frustrating team to root for. That airs.

I was thinking that on Monday. That's the last two times I've watched the Seahawks. I've said that. Now I was talking to a couple different people. Twitter is the way they are. Just a lot of talent. They're good every year. I'm not going to listen to them complain.

I watched a lot of talent with just inexplicable whole. and like, like offensive line and the ability to give teams first downs via penalty all the time. Yeah, but they're still good. Like, like we need to not lose sight of this. The Bears do all this stuff without the good part. Yes. A lot of teams do all this maddening stuff without the good part. So I'm not going to sit here and cry for Seahawks fans who are in the playoffs every year and

have played the Super Bowl twice. Sorry, guys. I don't feel bad for you. I feel a little bad for them. All right. Let's move on to third down. Third down and four at the Bronco six. Brady to throw from the gun.

Sets throws White with a catch at the one, and he takes it into the end zone for the touchdown. Six yards from Brady to White, and the Patriots have opened it up. Now leading 40 to 16. The Patriots just go in and crush the Broncos. I mean, beat them up pretty terribly and kind of let us know the Broncos are going a certain direction

for the rest of the year. and then the Steelers barely eke one out against the Colts. So Kevin, would you say this is more of just the old road Steelers woes that we've seen in years past, or the Patriots looking like, or starting to look like the team to beat in the AFC? I just don't understand why the Steelers have these road woes. It's happening. Every year it happens. Every year.

The Red Zone play calling is ridiculous. The ability, I just don't know why they can't go on the road and just stomp on team's throats. what's going on here? And you can see the individual, you know, Antonio Brown, I mean, you can see the individual talent

that they have. That comes out, but it just seems like they don't want to do anything until like the fourth quarter. I also just think that Rathesberger doesn't have it right now. He looks awful again on Sunday.

The first drive, he throws that ball to Martavis Bryant. It's like, why are you giving away possessions against the Colts? Like, why is this happening? There's just no reason to do that. I understand it's the first corner

or taking a shot, but they're just playing a frustrating brand of football right now. And I know that they have this formula that's kind of working for them. The defense was excellent again on Sunday. I mean, Hayward only had, I don't even think he had a sack, but every single time I turned around, he was in the backfield. Two, it did have a sack, a couple more hits. I mean, they have some monster talent in their front seven. And I think that that's really how they're playing and winning right now.

But you start to worry about teams that win that ugly brand of football. And I don't like that when you're playing against. teams that have a lot of different ways to beat you. Because if that formula isn't working, then what are you going to do? And I feel like with New England right now, and you saw it again on Sunday, Burke heads back. They're throwing passes to him. They're doing all these different things formationally. I just feel like New England is going to come together as this team that can beat you in so many different ways. And if the Steelers have this one defined way that they're going to be a potent at AFC contender, I just feel like there's more ways that can go wrong.

So I think the biggest problem When you're winning ugly is that you win ugly by necessity You don't need to win ugly If you have Antonio Brown Levion Bell Oh hey Martavis Bryant got involved by the way on Sunday In a little touchdown Yeah that's fun

And they threw him a deep ball that was Underthrown by 10 yards and was intercepted Which is good. They have juju They have a good offensive line So you don't need to win ugly Other teams have to win ugly other teams have to win the Steelers should be putting up 35 points a game

yeah I just I don't know I like the defense so much and I think that they have they're really able to overwhelm teams I just don't think we like we both like Todd Haley why is this team 19th in points in the NFL I just think that Rothsberger had a really shitty year he was really bad again on Sunday I just feel like

that is their biggest issues their quarterback play is bad I don't understand why why not? I mean, Brown and Bell both can operate really well within 10 yards the line of scrimmage. That's not how Rathusberger plays. I know, no, no, I understand that. We just discussed that Routersberger is bad now. So why doesn't someone say Routherstberger, you're bad now? Please, please pass the ball eight yards down the field.

That would be great. Thank you. It's a great question. I mean, you're kind of taking away a huge element of your offense that involves Martaibus Bryant, but maybe that's the answer right now. That's done. We're done with that. It's over.

We already saw what happened. I'm just so frustrated. They used to be so fun. I would rather... Now I hate watching them. I would rather watch... I would rather watch a dink and dunk Rathusberger offense.

Just get the ball in the hand of your skill position guys than what you just described, which is Martavis Bryant being overthrown by 10 yards. I think this is a really telling stat is that Rathusberger is fifth in the league in average air yards per pass is 9.9. he's not fifth in the league when it comes to average completions.

He's about 16th. Yep. So his average pass length is 9.9 yards. His average pass length of completions is 6.7, which is kind of terrifying when we were throwing the ball that deep. So he's 14th in average completions and fifth in average pass distance. That's the biggest discrepancy in the week by a while. We call that the Rex Grossman.

Unfortunately, that's kind of where we are right now. Like, he is developed into a Rex Grossman-esque figure this year. And that is problematic for a team that wanted to be this dynamic on offense. Could you imagine any walk of life being described as a Rex Grossman-esque figure? I probably have been described that way. In some areas of my world. You came into the Langer office and were like, Maze, you really took a turn towards a Rex Grossman-esque figure this year. How would you feel about that?

I would quit. I would never step foot in that office again. I would send Bill a very sternly worded letter and I would apologize. For taking a turn towards Grossman? Yes. I would be very embarrassed about that being the turn I took. So I want to say one more thing about

I went to England before we move on here. It just feels like if the Patriots aren't going to be that great on defense, they're going to be fine. There's a chance this is just one of those more vintage Patriot seasons where they beat you in these annoying ass ways that just drives you nuts. The fact that they return to kick off for a touchdown and then blocked a punt with nominally their two starting running backs

is the most annoying Patriots bullshit ever. But it just seems like that's what they're going to be, especially against a watered down league. They're going to find these ways to beat you. They're going to be a top seven team in special teams again. Brady's going to throw over 6,000 yards or whatever he's on pace for this year. And they're going to find a way to eventually become the best team in the conference. So they're no longer.

It just feels like we're cruising toward that. They're no longer giving up even 20 points a game. Yeah, that helps. They've moved on. We're on to competent defense. We're on to not being the 32nd ranked defense in the NFL. It's just amazing how we sat here and we had no evidence, none, that the Patriots are going to turn it around on defense,

except the fact that they were the Patriots. What's the best way to predict future performance? But in no being the Patriots. And so in no way, past Patriots performances. In no other walk of life, like we're both pragmatic people. And in no other walk of either life or football or whatever, would we just guess and be like, yeah, I wouldn't worry about it. It's just like what we're seeing.

Like the eye test, the statistic statistically, like every single thing pointed to the Patriots being a tire fire. And we both sat here and we were just like, nah. And it's literally the only thing we would do that with. And it's great analysis, by the way. no, just be like, no. Nah. Pagent's going to be fine. And they were.

We're in your 17 of Bill Belichick just dunking on people. Yeah, that's very true. It's going to be a really exciting AFC playoffs again. We have to watch them in the Super Bowl. I love covering them. All right.

On 4th down, let's talk about just a bizarre game. One of the weirdest finishes I've seen in quite a long time. And this was in the Jags overtime went over for the Chargers. Kevin, they're like 10 and 16. things to unpack from the last three minutes of this game. Number one being Leonard Fournett just apparently wasn't there for it.

I just, every choice that Bortles makes is always fascinating to me. One of my favorites is when at the end of that game where they had to get a field goal, he ran for two yards and almost got tackled in bounds. And if he had, it probably would have ended the game. That would have been, that would have been an all-timer. Like, it's just throw the ball out of bounds. Like, you literally can just chuck it at the side. line when you're that far away.

Just any sort of situational awareness would be amazing. I would love it. And then both picks were just unbelievable. I mean, the first one he threw, he threw it across his body into a group of four people wearing white jerseys. And I'm pretty sure every single one of those guys tipped it. Like, that's how close together they were. And eventually it gets picked off.

And then he airmails one to Trey Boston having an interception happen. the Marquise Lee taunting penalty when it wasn't a penalty on the other guy and knocking them out of field goal range was just amazing. I mean, Philip Rivers taunting AJ Boyer after giving up what was probably the game winning pick was the most Philip Rivers moment ever. There was everything that happened in that game for 20 straight minutes was amazing and I'm glad we got to indulge it. So here's what I think happened. Bordals got a team to a winning record by not doing anything, okay? And not touching the ball, throwing the ball eight times a game in some situations,

handing off to four net, letting that defense get big turnovers. And then somehow it became communicated to him that he was somehow responsible for this. And he became sort of an irrational confidence guy. And I want to say, I have nothing to do with the team, I'm neutral.

I don't care if they win or lose. I would like them to succeed. I am not on that side. I love this. I love this. It's Bordels. It's Bordels just going for it. I want to see the run game just phased out.

I just want to see Bordals chucking it down the field and seeing his defense bail him out for the rest of the season. I don't want to bring up Rex Crosman again. That is the most fun thing I can possibly imagine. I don't want to bring up a first person. Brex Grossman again, but that game had such a definitive mid-2000s Bears feel where the only way they could win is if their defense either scored or put them in a position to score. The fact that Tashon Gibson pretty much scored that touchdown to essentially win them the game. And then because

it didn't happen that way, they needed Boye to bring them down inside the 10 in order to win the game is just a football aesthetic to which I understand so much. And it just warmed my soul. I just warmed my soul. I really appreciated teams having to watch that sort of product on the field. Like, well, if our defense doesn't get us within the 10-yard line, we're totally screwed. It's really fun. I miss those days. There's an old, very, very old sitcom formula that every episode should just be the main character getting in hot water for 20 minutes in the last 10 minutes, just getting out of the hot water. That's it.

That's every sitcom, right? You mean like Silicon Valley? That is the Jaguars. Like, it's just Bortles, lets the team hang around for a while. making these crazy mistakes and then in the last 10 minutes the defense is like okay we we have this don't worry about us yeah that's fine i appreciate that it makes total sense pretty much where they are it's the perfect i i almost ranked the number one in my red zone ranking because they're either they they don't appear on our screen unless they're doing something interesting because they

don't get to the red zone organically it's it's it landed for not doing something crazy or the defense taking the ball away exactly exactly or or or Blake Bortle is just freelancing. They're a fun team. That's why I want them to be good. You know in baseball, the three true outcomes? Those are three true outcomes in the NFL.

It's just four net, Bortle's fucking up, or the defense. That's it. That's fair. That's what it is. Yeah, Bortles is definitely the strikeout,

and I would say the defense of the home runs. Fournett's just a walk. Fournets, a walk. All right, buddy. Let's move on to your craziest. headline of the weekend. What do you got for us? So typically it's a storyline here and I just I just tackle a big storyline. This one is a specific headline that I found so insanely funny. I wanted to share it. Glover Quinn. Fine defensive back for the Detroit lines. He's really good. I've

always liked Glover Quinn. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, he played the Browns over the weekend. He did. Do you know what his assessment of the Browns was? I, I'm not aware of this. No. he said they're a top 10 talent team in the league and they probably have better athletes than 25 of the teams in the NFL he continued they haven't won a bunch of games but don't sleep on them now I'm not one of these guys I don't know what to say I'm not one of these guys who like parse his quotes

check this guy out I'm gonna parse this quote for a second um I think if I think there are very, very few teams in the NFL in history, maybe the last 30 years, let's say, that you can just officially sleep on, and one of them is the 2017 Cleveland Browns. Who exactly is the talent he's discussing here? I don't know, Miles Garrett played on Sunday. He looked okay. Yeah, no, we got Garrett. He actually didn't play against Garrett because he's on defense.

That's fair. I mean, he can watch him from afar. Yeah, that's true. Deshaun Kaiser made some nice throws on Sunday. I mean, he wasn't good overall, but there's some really nice tosses. the 10 than Deshaun Watson had incompletions inside of the 10. And Deshael Watson had a significant, had like double-digit attempts inside the time. Deshaun guys are like the best he has all season probably on Sunday.

So, I mean, if you're going to have a game where you think the Browns are better than they are, it was probably the one that happened on Sunday. The quarterback sneak was good. I threw some really, I mean, there was a couple that he put on the left sideline. The one of Sammy Coates was a gorgeous. Do you know what quarterback sneak I'm talking about? Oh, no, I did not. I did not see.

I won't know. Oh, it was one where they stuck from like two yards away. With 15 seconds off and a half with no timeout soft. Gotcha. Okay. Just imagine that scenario. I did not see that play. I have not watched that game again.

Shockingly. They couldn't get the snap off. And they went into half. And there was this weird thing. So I got to it late and they kept showing Hugh Jackson and he was upset. And they kept showing Jim Caldwell and he was upset. Because I forget what the actual thing. There was like some arguments and stuff.

and I think generally I couldn't figure out who had made the mistake because it's Caldwell and Jackson they're both liable to have made some crucial end of half mistake there's a lot of stuff on the table there anything could have happened at that point what the hell is they I was prepared for any sort of mistake and we got a great one

which was Hugh Jackson running a quarterback sneak with 15 seconds left with no 10 outs that team is fun what a team Yeah, sleeping on them. I think they're sleeping on themselves is the problem. They are with the Browns. They are asleep.

All right. It's time for my ringer of the week, someone who made a big impact. Typically, this is a guy you might not have noticed, but I don't think I could do anyone else but Adrian Claiborne from Sunday. The fact that he got six sacks, if you get six sacks in a game, saying that that number does not exhibit your dominance in the game sounds ridiculous, but in this case, it kind of does.

He could have had eight. Like there were two more plays where he was around the quarterback. He had a bunch of hurries. The degree to which he dominated another NFL player that gets paid to play football. I don't think I've seen it like that in quite a long time. And it was just, he says he only has one move. It's kind of short changing himself. I'd say he has two moves.

His first move is I weigh 280 and I'm more like a defensive tackle. So I'm just going to run you over. That worked several times. it was a good move. It was his go-to and I understand why he was doing it. The other was kind of this like overhand swim move that he would do to the outside that really doesn't look like a move at all. Like he was just brushing Chaz Green's hands aside and then running around him,

which is a solid counter, I guess, to like a typical bull rush. But it's not pass rushing like 405. Like this is like intermediate pass rushing. You would take a ninth grade. So every single level of how he dominated that game was embarrassing for the Cowboys. And I just really enjoyed it. Adrian Claybourne is just a fun type of player that is never going to have this game because he's not particularly quick or elusive. And that's why it's so weird that he was the guy to do it.

Like the fact that 21% of his total sack outcome in his career happened in one night tells you all you need to know. I mean, it's as funny a match. as I've seen. The only reason I wouldn't say that is because of Dak Prescott's health. Adrian Claiborne is the definition. I like Adrian Claiborne. I've talked to him a handful of times. The definition of just a guy.

Yep. He is a pro. Like, Adrian Claiborne is a professional defensive end. And I like his game. I think you can move him inside. He's a stout defender. He is not this guy. And the fact that it was him is just the most perfect outcome in this entire situation.

I mean, I just, I'm sitting there and like that's Sack 5. And I was like, Adrian Claiborne is doing this. It makes no sense. It's amazing. I really enjoyed it. What a league. Jason Garrett's working on getting fired. This was a really, really bad three hours.

Stafford out of the gun. He's got it looking right, throws right. It is caught. Give me a first down. Golden State. Inside the 30. Golden 25. Golden 20.

Golden, turning all the jets to the house. Touchdown. Detroit Lions. Oh, baby, 40 yards on the connection. And now we welcome in the ringer's own Danny Kelly. Danny, that touchdown from Matthew Stafford to Golden Tate sealed the win for the Lions over Cleveland. Again, we just talked a little bit about.

Danny, I'd probably say it was a little too close for comfort for the Lions in this one against the Browns, but you seem to think that people are sleeping on the Lions a little bit right now. I mean, I think I'm sleeping on the Lions a little bit even. They, okay, first of all, their defense was atrocious last year. and I think people probably remember that. But this year, they've really improved. You do.

This year they've improved a lot. I mean, I think they're rushing the past are a little bit better this year. They are defending the past a lot better. Darius Slay has kind of turned into a shutdown cornerback. They have him shadow guys, depending on who they're playing. And I don't know, they look like a much more balanced team. Matthew Stafford has picked it up over the last few games and looked pretty good.

Obviously, they got off to a slow start against. the Browns. And like you said, it was probably too close for comfort. But in the end, I mean, they did put them away and they look like they're kind of, you know, like a potential contender in that division now. I think that maybe people are sort of looking past them a little bit. I feel like Minnesota looks so good right now that it's going to be hard to catch them if they keep playing the way they are right now. And they're like, it's not like they're banged up. They're trending in an upward direction, not a downward one. So I feel like that may be tough. But as we look at the rest of the NFC wild card.

We talked about this a little bit. It just feels like the Panthers are that, not overwhelming may not be the right word, but just they don't scare you in any significant way. And it's not as if they've been rolling over people. Again, I know they're seven and three, or I know they're six and three, whatever. But it just feels like, are they seven and three?

They're seven and three. I can never remember how many games teams have played. So it just seems like that would be where Detroit can probably make this happen. And the lions also feel like they're getting all their guys back now. So the fact that I know Taylor Decker didn't want to play well on Sunday, but Taylor Decker's going to be back at left tackle. It feels like the line they've won it all year is going to be around, which is nice.

And they got Goliday back. My favorite play in that game was that Golden Tate, like the Golden Tate long pass. Theoretic absolutely planted Joe Sherbert on. Theoretically is like 190 pounds. It's like, oh, good. Theoretic still doing stuff. It just feels like that offense has the pieces. but I don't know right now with the way that the NFC playoff picture is kind of shaping up

if they're just going to be able to catch the other teams that are going on there. Yeah. No, and I think right now they're probably on the outside looking in, but there's a lot of season left in the sense that some of these teams have seriously brutal schedules down the stretch. And so, you know, and they're going to be playing a lot of the contenders right now in that conference are going to be playing each other a few times during the stretch run. So I think there's still plenty of time for them to do their thing.

do have to get better in the red zone. I think right now they're I think before the browns game they were like 27th in the red zone in terms of touchdowns per red zone trip so they need to get better about that. We saw them really struggle against the Steelers a couple weeks ago in that in that regard. So they need to get better at that. They need to kind of find some semblance of a run game I think but overall I've been pretty impressed with them. I think with the way that Matt Stafford has been playing, it gives them a chance. And I think they have really good receivers. Obviously, Marvin Jones was quiet this week, but he's been kind of going off over the last month. And then Golden Tate is probably the best run after the catch receiver in the NFL.

He just gives him a chance to score on any play, as we saw last week. So I think that, you know, they have a chance. They're definitely still in it. It's going to be, I mean, they're right now. They're behind. But I think this last like seven weeks of the season or whatever it is is, is going to be chaos. I agree with you. But it's just that every year, it seems like we do this with the Lions, right?

Like, they have this excited. 20 to 20 passing game. They like, we like that. Stafford is just kind of a fun player to watch aesthetically at times, even though he's not particularly efficient. Like the Lions are 20th and offensive DVOA after 10 weeks, after nine weeks. They'll be updated today. They're 32nd against rushing the ball, but they're 17th throwing it.

It's not like they're this really great passing offense that's held back by inability to run the football. They look fun at times, but aren't particularly efficient at others. And again, they are absolutely brutal in the. Red Zone. I mean, like, so the places where they need to be good, they're not. And it just feels like after a certain point, that's what should matter with Detroit. That's why it's hard for me to get excited about them when I actually see what the numbers and the product in the field looks like. On paper, it's always fun. And then it's just like, okay, like, what are these, what does this team do

particularly well? And I don't know what the answer is. Well, you're right in the last couple of years, it seems like they do, they do this to you a lot. I do, I do think. think that their defense is significantly better though and that's kind of the key yeah their offense is definitely without a run game and that makes them sort of one dimensional and i think that's a reason that they've struggled at times in offense but their defense is really really good i think you know they're they're averaging like 27 points a game so they're scoring points i think probably they've gotten some of those points from their defense too but yeah i think i don't know i'm not necessarily saying that they're the favorites in the nancy north or anything like that but it does

feel a little bit like people are still sleeping on them a bit, just based on some of the other teams that are getting a lot more attention right now. But here's the thing, Danny, if we're talking about the lions, right, and like the fact that their defense is better than we thought it was going to be. Among that NFC playoff race, like the teams currently entrenched in playoff spots in that conference, whose defenses are they better than? Who has a worse defense than the lions among the teams that are currently slated to play in the NFC playoffs. The Rams, the Panthers, the Seahawks, the Saints and the Vikings, and the Eagles, I think they're all better than them.

So if the defense is what we're excited about with that team, then why should we be excited about them? Man, you are really down on the Lions right now. I think, I mean, you make some good points, though, for sure. Obviously, the NFC defenses have been a lot better than we thought. Obviously, the Saints are way better than we thought. And so yeah, I mean, you make a good point. But I'm just saying this team is more balanced than I think a lot of people think.

And they could surprise down the stretch. Now, am I saying that they're going to win? No, I think that they have a chance to be up there in terms of, you know, they have a chance to be a contender down the stretch. But you're obviously not buying my argument. Danny, you realize that the team that would probably have to lose their playoff spot for the Lions to make the playoffs is your team, right? And I'm not going to let you bring that reverse. drinks nonsense in here.

Like the Seahawks are better than the lions. Stop doing this. I don't have, okay, you know me. I'm the reverse jinx master, but I really don't have a ton of faith. I don't have a ton of faith in the Seahawks. You can't work for the rector.

com and call yourself the reverse jinks master. That's fair. That's a real. That's a good way to start to interoff as war. All right. We'll scrub that from the podcast. I'm just saying, buddy.

I'm not going to let you do that to your team. The lions are fine. They're kind of fun. but I do not think that they are like the NFC team I'm worried about making a run over the second half. Maybe I'm wrong, but I will wait to see it. I'll believe it when I see it. Fair enough. Fair enough.

The other team that no one seems to be talking about that actually is slated to make the playoffs right now is the first place Tennessee Titans who have been outscored by eight points on the season, which is absolutely amazing. So four straight wins for the Titans, including some pretty ugly ones. Danny, why do you feel it gets time to start paying attention to the Titans? The funny thing is, like, I think a couple weeks ago, I started writing for our, for our, like, wild predictions of the second half post, I wrote about how the Titans would miss the playoffs. But again, that was before the Deshaun Watson injury. So there's obviously a caveat there. But I don't know. For me, I was, when I looked up and saw they'd won four games in a row, I was like, wow.

I think I definitely have been sort of sleeping on this team. their defense has been playing a lot better than they did at the beginning of years, particularly the secondary. They're starting to get some production out of Morgan and Iraqpo. And offensively, Mays, you love this. They're starting to get really creative on offense, obviously, with, they're getting Dory Jackson involved on the offense. They do a lot of the run-pass option stuff. We saw that this week. They, you know, use a lot of motion prior to the snap.

I saw that the Bengals, I think it was Pac-Man Jones or, or, one of their guys was talking about how they're just a pain in the ass to defend because they do so many things. There's so many different formations and personnel groups. We're finally starting to see, I think, some creativity. You know, obviously we've talked about the exotic smash mouth and all that. And it hasn't been, I think, as exotic as a lot of us wanted it to be until recently. And so it's cool to see that. Obviously, DeMarco Murray just never seems to slow down.

I feel like we've been talking about the Derek Henry breakout for like two years now. and Murray just keeps holding them off and keeps producing. So yeah, I mean, to me, I was the one sleeping on them. And so recently it's just like, wow, they've gotten my attention. Lombardi was a big proponent of the Cowboys trading for DeMarco Murray again at the deadline. I thought that was, that was intrigued. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, I can understand where you'd want to do it.

If there's a guy who you can just slot in that understands your offense, and he's somebody that is seen as expendable because of the point. players on the roster that he's at with right now, I get it. Those are the types of guys you should look for. It would have been of risk for Tennessee. For sure. Yeah, because who's behind Henry? Nobody you feel good about giving

the ball to. So, and then if you lose one of those guys and you only have one, you pretty much, your offensive identity crumbles. I think that's the issue there. Who do you guys like more in that division? The Jaguars or the Titans? And it might not even matter because one of them could get in in the wild card anyway.

Which is nuts. I mean, the fact that one of those two teams is probably one of the favorites to get that second wild card is unbelievable or even the first wild card. I wish that they would just just for the sake of the division what if we just combined the teams

and we put Mariotta on the Jaguars and that way we could ensure an AFC South team goes far. I just feel like we just need to pull our resources together. I still feel better about the Jags Danny just because I think they do. I like

teams that do things well. I know that sounds crazy, but I would rather have a team that does one or two things really well and ride with that. I mean, the Jags are the best defense in the league still when you consider their woes against their run. And they've been much better. So I still just feel like I would ride with that Jaguars defense over everything else. But I agree with you. I like how they're trying to try to jumpstart the offense. And the fact that Adori Jackson has four carries for 50 yards over the last two games and the way they've used him, that's interesting to me. because I just don't think they have that explosive element on offense we thought they were going to. Getting Corey Davis may help a little bit, getting him back. He did not play well this week.

But I just feel like they need to find some of that explosive element again on offense because they had it at times early in the season. They stepped back from it a little bit when Mario da got hurt as they tried to work him back in. So if they can find that, I do agree that defense is playing better than it was before. And then maybe you could start to talk yourselves into them being like a wild card team who'd be annoying in the wild card round in the divisional round whatever i'm not normally the guy that's like you know really worried about a quarterback running and getting hurt but mariotta took a couple of hits yeah in that game that make you really nervous about they had him running the option and and and not like a read option no like the option and he got killed the whole reason

i was told i was told that mike malarkey was hired because they the owner in Tennessee was afraid of some of the protection schemes that Wizzinut was running that they were going to leave Marriota vulnerable to injury and you got to protect your franchise quarterback having said that if that's

the reason you got hired Malarkey what is it you say you do here Mike I yeah it's fine because we saw how good they looked with Matt Castle so it's not as if Marcus Mariotta is important to what that team does Oh, man.

You know who else is super underrated on that team, though? This is totally changing the subject. But Kevin Byard on the safety back there, he's playing really, really well this year. And obviously, like, the least celebrated kind of piece of that secondary coming into the season. You draft Adoria in the first round. You give Logan Ryan and John and Cyprian money. And then you have this guy who no one really cares about. And he's been the best player in the secondary, which, like, isn't that how it always is?

The Eagles are the same way. They gave Patrick Robinson, like, $60. to come play corner and he's been one of the best corners in the league. Like none of this makes sense whatsoever. It never does. Hey, Mays. So we were talking about, did you see the Mitch Trubisky nickname thing on Fox?

Yes. I don't want to talk about it. No, we're going to talk about it. So Mitch Chubisky has a number of nicknames including Mr. Biscuit. Yep. And Pretty Boy Assassin, Money Making Mitch is on there. I don't believe anybody calls him any of these things because every,

every nickname in sports is just a truncated. or elongated last name, like true or Bisckey, you know, that kind of thing. And so we got to talking here at the ringer.com. We were just joking around about, you know, when we played sports, what our nicknames were. Obviously, I know where this is going. Obviously mine was Clarkie. I mean, there's nothing you can do about that when I played ice hockey and football. Do you know what Danny Kelly's nickname was in sports?

No. Daner. Oh, my God. That's terrible. Is it terrible or is it the best thing? you've ever heard. I guess it's all right. That's,

that is like the last thing I would go with. Danor, Jesus. What was yours, Mays? I was just Mays. I don't like, there was nothing. I mean, it's hard to make a nickname out of my last name. It's one syllable.

Oddly enough, he's also Danor for some reason. I don't know. I don't know why. We could do this forever, but we got to go. Danny, thank you for joining us. We'll see you on Friday, buddy.

All right. Sounds good, guys. And we are now welcome by another one of our ringer colleagues. Staff writer Roger Shermer. How are you doing, Roger? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Of course.

So we got to get through these pretty quickly, but we're going to play a little good idea, bad idea with you. And we'll start with one that is near and dear to my heart. John Fox challenged a Benny Cunningham screen pass that looked like he was out on the one yard line. Could have been a touchdown. Could have gone either way. But if he had done nothing, the Bears would have first and goal on the one. Instead, he challenges the play.

the refs realized that Benny Cunningham was fumbling as he hit the pile on, and instead of getting first and goal on the one, the bears give the ball to the Packers on the 20-yard line. So my question to you, Roger, me continuing to watch the John Fox era for the rest of the season. Good idea or bad idea? I thought you were going to ask if the challenge was a good idea. Yeah, that's where I thought that was going.

I was like, wow. It was a horrendous idea. It's pretty black and way. Challenging those plays, period, drives me nuts. Like if it's first and goal on the one, don't challenge. Just don't do it. Like, why would you give away one of your challenges for a single yard? It just, so you have three points there automatically if you do nothing.

And then instead you give the game away. Like, I'm sorry. I just, I can't do this anymore. But why don't you tell me why I should or shouldn't do this, Roger? Well, well, I mean, it's a good idea because I think it's your job, right? Like that is your- 31 other teams. No, no, no.

His team is to watch the teams that match. matter and talk about them here on the Ringer NFL show. That's a good point. But it's a bad idea because so the one thing that should be motivated you or could be motivating you to watch them is to see whether Mitch Trubisky is any good, hypothetically. Yeah, that's really it. The thing is I think we've got a little bit of a, I'm not saying he is the same human being as Jared Goff, but it's kind of a similar situation.

The first year is not going to be as predictive as the second year if there's going to be an entirely most likely new coach next year. You're going to learn a lot more about who Mitch Trubisky is next year than you will watching him play and throw like eight passes a game under John Fox. So the future, even the future of the Bears is not really at stake right now. You know, save yourself some hours on Sundays. So this might be, the move here might be, I just go back and watch the game again, not live and I can just watch the offensive plays individually and I don't have to see the choices made by the coaching staff in between plays, possessions, anything.

So I can keep tabs on the Biscuits progression here as a player, but I don't have to see the rest of the bears. Mr. Biscuit. Yeah, please address me formally. I think that's the move. I think that's the way to go. Yeah. You don't need to know anything more about John Fox.

Every moment you spend thinking about him or looking at him is. is going to bring you sorrow. And football should it be about sorrow, right? Or is it supposed to be? I think it kind of is supposed to be. But I agree with you. I think it's a good comparison just because I want a coach that is going to tap into whatever creativity allows you to kind of help a young quarterback.

And that's why, like, I understand why John Fox was there. I get that he's a good coach for like a bridge rebuilding team as you try to step toward competence. Yes. It's like that's, I understand why the choice was made. I also understand that when you want to take the next step as an NFL franchise, he's probably not the coach you want. So that's where I'm sitting with all of this. Why don't you skip the middleman and just never have him? What's the point?

Why don't make the whole plane out of John Fox? That ship has sailed. Unfortunately, we're on like year four of this. There's no going back now, but we can control where we go from here. I'd like it to be in a little bit of a different direction. direction. Save your emotions. All right. Next up here, Roger, the Giants lost to the 49ers giving Kyle Shanahan his first win and raising a whole new batch of questions about Med Jet and Ben McAdo's job. But with that win,

the Browns may now have an insurmountable lead over the 49ers in the race to the number one pick. So actually winning that game, good idea or bad idea? You know, I thought this game was sort of like kind of like a Super Bowl. You know, this was the first game week 10 or later. Super Bowl feel, yeah. Yeah. You know, it was at Levi Stadium. They just played the Super Bowl. But it was the first game played week 10 or later with where the two teams had one

win or fewer combined since the 1980s. You don't get a game with draft implications like this every week. This was a real huge opportunity for the 49ers. And I got to say they blew it. You know, the Giants have just beat them to the, beat them to the, what they needed, which is that loss. The Giants let themselves get dominated. And plus, that helps the Giants get Ben McAdoo fired easily.

It was a huge Vist opportunity for the 49ers. When a chance to lose to a one lost team comes at you, you can't let it slip. The Giants were embarrassing on Sunday. It's a level of poor play and just a type of poor play that is so clearly your player is not giving a shit anymore that it was amazing. The level of effort from Janoris Jenkins, it points in that game is just like, why are we doing this? How does anyone benefit from these last seven Giants games? I just don't understand anymore.

I mean, opposing wide receivers seem to benefit. Yes, they really do. C.J. Beatherd benefited. C.J. Beatherd, who, R.P. the C.J. Bethard era in San Francisco. Apparently after the buy, it will be over. So he didn't even save his job with that? he didn't even save his job by you know throwing for over 300 yards

and actually look pretty sure throwing for over 300 yards doesn't matter when your team trades a second round pick for a quarterback yeah unfortunately the bar is a little higher than being the Giants I was looking through a bunch of those like you know has has three seconds to throw has two seconds to throw

type things the other day and the splits and CJ Bethard basically is dead last in every single split but there's not a situation he thrives in. Their offense right now is essentially Markies Goodwin runs very fast

and CJ Bethard throws the ball very far to Marquis Goodwin and he either works or it doesn't. Like that is where we are with the Giac with the 49ers. So that win doesn't even really like show any signs of like development or moving forward. The one thing is I guess they don't need a top pick to draft a quarterback anymore but I'm also not thrilled with the quarterbacks in this upcoming draft class.

So, well, Graspa is their quarterback. I mean, they drafted C.J. Betherd, and I think that you see what you can get out of him. I think they went to him at the right time. But I also, if you can go get Garapola for a second round pick, which isn't very much all things considered, you do that and you just say, C.J. Beather is a third round pick. He's our backup quarterback now.

I feel like that series of choices is just fine. Yeah. In the end, the difference between the first and, you know, third pick, which is probably where they'll end up being is not that big a deal. But still, I really believe in taking tanking to its fullest extremes. And the 49ers had a golden opportunity. Sometimes you have to seize destiny and they let it slip. In the end, Roger, the tanking is the friends who made along the way.

All right. Last one here, Roger. Jerry Jones got a letter from the NFL on Monday telling him to cease and desist with his efforts to block Roger Goodell's contract extension. So Jerry Jones hiring a lawyer and attempting to oust the commissioner, good idea or bad idea? I just think every single development that's had the word Roger Goodell in it from any side has been a bad idea for the past like four years of our lives. That's very fair. Every time I've heard the word Roger Goodell, whether it's like whether it's someone like Jerry Jones trying to like usurp him or something Roger Goodell actually did him.

I'm like, I don't care about this. I would like to watch football and not think about the multi-millionaires power struggle to control the league. Jerry Jones is so mad that you just called him a multimillionaire. He's furious that he's a billionaire. But, you know, Goodell is only making 50 million and a private and getting a private jet for lifetime. Not yet. Yeah, not yet. that like when I say that everything is a bad idea

that contractor quest is like one of my one of the worst ideas and one of the funniest things I've heard Hey I don't want to get too political but is there not a health care problem in this country if Roger Goodell who makes $50 million a year is trying to secure lifetime health care for his family Well he knows that the players don't get health care

I mean it's just like So he's like one of my players What if one of my children becomes an NFL player and then they won't get health care from that. I just don't understand how there aren't people that you could just give like a million dollars to and have them be the NFL commissioner. Like for what reason does Roger Goodell command $50 million in any sort of bargaining card? Did you see the Walmart CEO makes $22 million a year?

Yeah, no CEO makes, very few CEOs make $50 million a year. And it's not, Roger Goodell is bad at this. He's actively bad at this. My proposal is that they just pay, you know, a significantly smaller sum to just the entire ringer, like, company and we'll do the job together for probably like how much money do you think it would take to get like all however many dozens of us. Like, definitely not $50 million. We're probably talking like. Definitely not. No.

And I think together we would do a better job than Roger. Goodell. I'm also Roger. but I'm a better Roger. My name is spelled differently. On that note, thank you very much for doing this, buddy. I don't think we can edit any other way. Thanks for having me.

All right, Kevin, before we get out of here, we wanted to offer our lasting impressions from week 10. Lay it on me. What you got? Well, in three weeks, Miami Dolphins play again in prime time. This will be... We just got off 19 days in which the dolphins

played in prime time three times. Robert I'm calling and I've called for similar proposals where I'm going a step further time to be able

to flex some Monday night game like a month in advance this is my take shouldn't we just be able to redo the schedule every Monday like they have how hard is it

to change the travel plans one big thing I think is we should have more open schedule weeks like like you know remember the college basketball thing where they would just like

it was like these two teams seem like they'd be good a good pairing like in like on like January 15th and then they would just have them play and like I think that the NFL should do something like that sort of like two months out however that that's not this

last thing that's not the argument here the argument here is that the NFL should be able to if we can flex Sunday night and they need to have still way more flexibility for that they also need to be able to do Monday night too I mean there's really not that many people who travel or whatever and also like

this is a TV sport. Think about, I mean, is it worth losing, it was a Thursday night football game that got, you know, or excuse me, a Sunday night football game, last Sunday night's football game, got the least amount of viewers for that time slot since they, that package went to network television in 2006. Back when Sean Payton took over, the Saints looked great.

And, you're a much younger looking man. And, and so, I mean, is it worth, it for a couple thousand fans, if that, probably a couple hundred fans wouldn't be able to attend a Sunday night game as opposed to Monday night game being displaced or the 10 million people potentially who tuned out because they saw the dolphins playing in prime time. That's all I hear you, man. You don't have to convince me of this. I would 100% agree. I would never want to watch the dolphins in prime time again if it were up to me. Is that your lasting impression? My last thing impression is that I just wanted to be the dolphins are terrible. My last thing impression is very

quick and it's just that I really have enjoyed kind of the utter insanity that's going on in the NFC right now. I just feel like that playoff race is shaping up to be so weird and interesting and just involving teams that are just these bizarre versions of themselves, the way we kicked off the show. I just feel like that six-team race and whatever six teams end up playing in that group is just the fascinating matchups that can result of that. I mean, the fact that the Rams might host a playoff game. The fact that the Vikings look very potent with Case Keenum. We have this Seahawks team that is pretty much the same as all the other Seahawks teams and that makes them exciting. And the Saints are just like turning into a powerhouse in front of our eyes. I just feel like those games,

like if we, if the four games on championship are on the divisional round weekend in the NFC are in some order, Saints Rams and Vikings, Seahawks, that's really fun to me. I know that's not what we thought that conference was going to be. It doesn't involve as many stars as we would have hoped. I just feel like that conference race is shaping up to be incredibly exciting. And I never would have thought that like three or four weeks ago. But just that these teams that have kind of started to emerge on that side interest me in a very profound way. So that is what I took away from the weekend that things are getting weirder than ever, but I'm very interested in what's going to happen with them. Saints, ground and pound. That's right. Saints ground and pound. The case keenam

airing it out. All right, buddy, that's it for today. Check us out on Friday. We'll get everyone set for week 11. As always, thanks for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. Thanks, guys.