The Ringer NFL Show - Final Four Quarterbacks With Chris Simms, Plus Path to the Super Bowl

Episode Date: January 21, 2021

Kevin is joined by Chris Simms to talk about the Deshaun Watson situation and the four remaining quarterbacks in the playoffs (1:02). Then The Ringer’s Nora Princiotti and former NFL scout and executive Jim Monos join the show to discuss the paths to win a Super Bowl for the final four teams (30:18). Then Kevin is joined by The Ringer's Mirin Fader to discuss her new piece about Davante Adams (1:00:05). Host: Kevin Clark Guests: Chris Simms, Nora Princiotti, Jim Monos, Mirin Fader Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast Network. I'm Kevin Carr. Great show today. Chris Sims joins me to talk about the remaining playoff quarterbacks to Sean Watson and much more. Roundtable with Nora Princiotti of the Ringer and Jim Manos, a former Bill's executive, also a former scout with the Saints and the Eagles. They all join me to talk about the four teams left in the playoffs and their path to a Super Bowl victory. Then Mirren Fader of the Ringer.com joins me to talk about her piece and her interview with Devante Adams.

All right, Chris Sims, NBC Sports, Chris Sims and Button Podcasts, and I have football. What's going on, buddy? Hey, what's up, Kevin? How you doing, man? I'm doing good. You know, just talking football, watching football, ready for the games this weekend, all that crap, all that good crap. You're doing okay? I'm doing great. I think this is my favorite football weekend of the year. Is it yours? Just two amazing, four amazing teams, two amazing games. I don't know. Is this your favorite weekend or not? It's up there. It's up there. I think I also, last week, I think just because it's two extra games, that's probably my favorite one because again, you know, two on Saturday, two on Sunday.

But man, the quality, as far as the final four, that's always exciting. And, you know, as you know, everybody knows, I mean, this is about as good a storyline as you can get with the four quarterbacks. And I think that's what's going to be really cool, too. I want to talk about all four of those quarterbacks. We want to start with two topics that are outside this final four. Number one is Deshaun Watson. And Chris, if you were to wave a magic wand and get to Sean Watson on any of the 32 teams, or 31, which does not have Jack Easter be, where does he go? Where would he get the most help?

Where would he become a Patrick Mahomes or even a Josh Allen type where the team does everything that they can to put him in position to win? What is that that dream destination for you, Chris? Yeah, sure. That's a good question. First off, I think that like with this Sean Watson conversation, to me, it's not going to be a team that's rebuilding. Like the people got to stop talking about the Jets trying to trade for the John Watson. Why? So they can be four and 12 with Watson just like the Texans were. You know, there's too many issues on those teams. To me, it's not any as a no trade clause,

right, Kevin? So he's not going to say, oh, yeah, I want to go to the Jets and be part of a rebuild. That's not going to happen. So to me, it is about the teams like you're saying that already have a team that's set up, they feel comfortable in the fact that, okay, our team, our roster is in a good spot. And who cares if we got to trade three first round picks? That's okay for a guy like this. I mean, listen, in my ultimate world of fantasy, I would love to see him go to the San Francisco 49ers with Kyle Shanahan. Yes. That would be my favorite thing. Yes, I'm biased. Kyle Shanahan's one of my best friends and all of that. But I also think he would fit within that offense very nicely. You know, Debo, Samuel, Brandon Iyuk, the movement Shanahan has in the run game,

play action, the boots off of that, that would be one that, you know, if you're going to make me pick one, I'm going to take that one. Yeah, my second question was going to be what would happen if he goes to a Jets type team? Because first of all, I mean, the bidding, I would assume, starts at four first round picks or, you know, I guess if you have Trevor Lawrence near the Jaguars, that conversation is different. But there's a huge gap, obviously, between pick one and pick two. But, I mean, I keep, you know, Richard Sherman came out this week and said, do everything

you can, Deshaun, to get to New York and play for Robert Sala. I mean, it just seems to me like not having a bunch of first round picks and playing for these Jets is not a football, is not exactly football heaven. No, I'm with you. And I would have a hard time thinking, you know, Joe Douglas or Robert Sala would want to do that. I believe they're believers in teams and building teams. And again, that, that, I know we're in a place where it's four franchise type quarterbacks

in the final four right now. And it's easy to always just boil it down to that. But like you said, you know, first off, Tampa Bay was awesome. They were just missing the quarterback. You know, the bills are new to the scene, but they've done a lot to support their great quarterback to make him better. Mahomes took over a team that was the number two seed in the AFC playoffs when he was drafted. So he's always had talent around him.

You do got to build the team. And that's where I just have a hard time thinking that could be successful for Watson or the Jets. Hey, it'll be fun. But at the end of the day, it is still a team sport. And I'd like to remind people that, you know, hey, the Rams went to the Super Bowl. with Jared Gough, who's not a top 20 quarterback. The 49ers last year with Jimmy Garaplo, not a top 10 quarterback. Blade Fortles was in the final four a few years ago.

The Eagles won the Super Bowl against Tom Brady with Nick Bowles. None of these people are top-notch franchise type quarterbacks. So I just don't want us all to forget about the team aspect of this. Yeah, and I just want to see Deshaun supported. Like I want him to get the support that these elite quarterbacks in the final four are getting. And that's my number one hope. I don't care where the destination is, but just get him some help. Okay, so let's get to the final four here.

I want to start with Josh Allen. You had an interview with Josh Allen on your podcast last week. Some of it ended up on Saturday of football. I thought it was fascinating. I thought the most fascinating part, Chris, was when you talked about getting advice from Tony Romo about Mickey Mantle and kind of keeping the arm or the bat in the strike zone and I guess using more body and less arm and all that stuff.

I found that fascinating. I want you to take me through his improvements because, you know, statistically, and I've talked about this all year, the big jump comes from year one to year two for a quarterback. It's very rarely from year two to year three. We're seeing this obviously with Alan, where there's just this incredible jump from year two to year three. What is different about him?

And are there lessons that teams can learn about how quarterbacks get better or is Josh Allen just a unicorn in this regard? Well, you know, listen, he's a unicorn in the fact that he has special, special talent. I mean, he has superstar talent. That's why he was the number one quarterback for me coming out in the draft a few years ago. You know, so that would be the first thing. has about as much potential as anybody in the game. He really does. He's right up there with Mahomes and Watson and anybody as far as that's concerned. Accuracy can be improved. You can

fix a guy's throwing motion. Now, a lot of that talk, Kevin, has always been around guys who I would argue can't naturally throw. You know, people go, whoa, oh, look, Tim Tebow. Oh, he's he couldn't fix him. And I would tell you, Tim Tebow was never natural thrower of the football. It's going to be hard to fix a guy like that, almost impossible. There's some other guys along the, you know, along the football history lines, too, the same thing where I'd go, no, he's not a natural thrower. Aaron Rogers made adjustments coming out of college. Remember how he hold the ball up real high like Jeff Tedford, all that? So that can be worked on and prove and all those things. The accuracy, I think, one, was better than people wanted to give it credit for.

The thing I would say, yes, he worked on mechanics. If you told him to him to hit the bull's eye target, he would hit the bullsie target all the time, even last year or the year before. The problem is sometimes he was trying to hit that bull's eye target with four people in front of it. And that's going to lead to inaccuracy, right? I mean, hey, there's a bullseye target. Yeah, but there's eight hands in the way. You're not going to hit the bullseye. Sorry. So don't throw that. Let's pick a new bullseye. I think that's a big part of it. And then the support system around them. And again, here's another thing, Kevin. that I think people miss because with the quarterback evaluation is too much in the draft right now,

people are two in do wins and losses and what do the stats look like? He had to play a reckless style of football with a crappy team around him at Wyoming. Horrible pass protection, no good wide receivers. They asked of him to play a game that was crazy and raw and just make plays because we can't win unless Josh Allen does some crazy stuff. So Buffalo had a slowly work that. out of him and, you know, refine his football game, along with getting him some talent around him and all that and him understanding offenses and how to make better decisions. That all leads

the better accuracy. Now, let's not forget this too, Kevin. He was 20 touchdowns, six interceptions and went to the playoffs last year. I do feel like a lot of people just brushed that over. I know it wasn't a great year, but there was a leap between one year one and year two. And, you know, he's a worker and he and he continued to work and get better and of course is now one of the best quarterbacks in the game. The most impressive part of that talk with between you and him was that he says he's not the type who takes notes and just wants to shove it in people's faces. If I improved that much at that many naysayers, I would be talking shit the entire year. And so it's amazing that he said that he was not that kind of guy. I commend him for that. Let's talk about

Rogers here for a second because I think, you know, obviously the narrative is that this Leflare offense and that's what you talked about. It's the Shanahan McVeigh style that that now Matt Lephy's putting his own little touches on. It is unlocked so much. And Mike McCarthy was not doing that. And if there's something that we're not talking enough about as far as what Lefleur is done to unlock Rogers, where would you start?

I would start with, I think, just giving him answers for everything. That would probably be the big thing. And more variety in answers, right? Like, Rogers always could, oh, they're doing this blitz. Okay, I got to play. Oh, they're doing this coverage. Okay, I got to play. Now he can go, oh, they're doing this splits.

Which one of these five plays do I want to get them with? Oh, they're playing this coverage. Man, I got about a Rolodex of 10 plays that I know I can gash this coverage with. I just think it's a more expansive offense and they've given him more diversity in the attack, an attack, let alone, I think it's especially this year and what we saw during the month of December and into the playoffs, they've become a true, they can impose their physicality and the run game type of team too, Kevin. That was one thing that's jumped out to me and where I didn't necessarily all the way

buy in with the Packers until maybe a few weeks ago because I just went, I don't know. I don't know if they're going to be able to run the team, run against, you know, certain defenses in football and impose their physicality. They have gotten to that point now where it's like, oh, teams are playing run defenses, they can still run the ball. And then, of course, if you play a run defense and Rogers catches you in it, he can gash you in the past game and make plays that way too. just think there's more confidence in the offense, and you're seeing him second-guess the offense

less and less in-rhythm throws off the first hitch, bam, all that stuff. We weren't seeing that with McCarthy and Rogers. Yeah, and I think it's fascinating. With this game this weekend, obviously it's going to be cold. Obviously, there's going to be what, 8,000, 9,000 fans, whatever it is. Can you take me through as someone who's played before? How much, and I've heard people talk about this this week. How much playing cold weather, and I know maybe we gloss over it, it kind of sucks, doesn't it? It does. It's hard, especially if you're not the team that's, you know, not used to it. That's where it could be a little weird. You know, one team's up there living in it, practicing in it every day, and they're not going to be phased by it. You know, I played in Tampa.

I went to New England in December and we're in Tampa. I knew we were in trouble before the game started when I walked in the locker room and everybody was already bu. bundle up in huge winter coats and winter hats. And I would have to be like, we haven't even been outside yet. What are we? What? Like, so that is going to be a real thing. Now they have Tom Brady,

of course, is the king of cold weather and doing all that type of stuff. I was going to mention that. Yes. Yep. But it is, you know, the ball slicker.

The ball's harder. It hurts to catch that as far as a receiver. The laces hurt when it hits your fingers the wrong way and things like that. Contact in general hurts. Just, you know, shoulder to shoulder contact. you know, not feeling totally loose and warm all the time. Yeah, those are all issues that the warm team that's going up to the cold has to deal with.

And, of course, that's a great advantage for the Packers and Rogers who are very special in these elements. I've been surprised maybe you weren't, but I was surprised at how impactful the crowds have been. I mean, you saw Baltimore get what, two straight fall start penalties and go up against their own goal line because of 6,700 fans. You saw it in Lambo a little bit. I was surprised. Maybe it's just that, you know, everyone's, gotten so into, you know, Lamar Jackson was on one of my shows earlier this year. And he said that without crowds, a football game just feels like an intense practice. And I wonder, I wonder,

if there were some players who just got used to this quote unquote intense practice. Now they've got 9,000 people from Buffalo or 10,000 people in Bay screaming at them and just a little bit of an adjustment. I think you're, I think that's spot on. I don't think there's any doubt about it. That's how I would have basically explained it. Yeah, not used to crowd. Whoa, it's the first time all year, holy cow, it's loud, you know, the energy and emotions start to flow because of the crowd and things like that. And, you know, you lose track of what you're thinking of. And also, too, I doubt many of these teams have had any practice even having to deal with it or every, like, hey, let's take a period and just add a little crowd noise so we can get used to it and get

off the ball at the same time. Or, you know, like you said, we're backed up in our own end zone. Maybe we just do no silent count, even though it's not crazy. I don't think a lot of those things have even been discussed because of the no fans and that it's not being an issue all year. But I think there'll be a difference this week to where now teams will be at least ready for it. And you'll see less of those type of mistakes here in championship Sunday weekend. I totally agree.

Again, I didn't think it was a big deal. And then Rogers came out of it saying that was the most comfortable I felt all year, the most fun I've had. I mean, so it obviously matters. With the Packers in general, if you're drafting, if you're on the playground right now, Chris, and you're the quarterback and you're picking skill guys right now. Is Devante Adams your first pick? Or is it among guys still left in his playoffs?

Is it Travis Kelsey? Is it somebody else? Yeah. Yeah. I would probably more favor, I think, really, Tyree Kill would be my first thing. Okay. That would be my first guy. You know, there's not many humans in the history of the planet Earth who have been built

like Tyree Kill. To me, he is, you know, the greatest weapon that. the game has to offer right now. Speed, sweeps, reverses. He can catch a slant run for 80-yard touchdown. He can run a bomb and catch an 80-yard touchdown. He can jump up and catch 50-50 balls. And yeah, he's not the most great route runner we've ever seen. But because of the speed aspect, they always play off coverage and the people are scared of it. So it doesn't really matter. He just puts the brakes on it and he's always open. I would probably go him one, digs two, and then probably Devante Adams three.

And I've been, listen, I'm not going to lie, I've been a little bit of the Devante Adams hater over the years. I have. He's a great route runner. He's got unbelievable hands. Lack of explosiveness, I think, is the thing that sometimes I kind of dock him for, but he's had a great year. There's no doubt about that.

Where has that improvement come, just in this last year? Well, I think a little bit is, too, the offenses lend itself to more ways of him getting the football, whether that's especially the play action pass, which lends to more aggressive downfield throws too. And I think that's the big thing. They became an offense this year. They make you defend every square inch of the field.

So between the play action passes, the quick screens they throw to them, then the slants that him and Rogers are amazing at throwing. And then what they do too is they're great at doing the double moves off of those things. So you can never overplay any one of those things, too. And that's where I think Adams and Rogers have become real special. Mike Evans is another guy that we might have to put right there in that conversation. And I honestly would probably take him over Devonde Adams, too. Now you're going to get me in trouble with all the Devon DeVos fans.

Yeah. That's why we have you on. We're like, I enjoy your, I wouldn't say it's contrarium, but I just like the fact that you have opinions that maybe differ from the, from the mainstream in the NFL from week to week. That's why I love your podcast so much. Thank you. Thank you. I don't try to be. I, you know, I work hard. I study at it. I prefer to be right, you know, and I'm not trying to be, like, I hate when people say, oh, you're just saying this for clicks or you're trying to get attention. No. You know, the people accused me that when Josh, when I was saying Josh Allen was the number one pick in the draft. Like, oh, you're crazy. You're just saying that to be different. They said the same thing to me when I was saying, well, home should be the number one pick in the draft. No, I go with

what, you know, I study, I work at it, I'm not always right. And I know my opinions aren't always popular, but I try to be honest and truthful through my work at the very least. Okay. This Brady thing right now, he is, he's changed, he's changed his career. I mean, he was 33rd and yards per attempt last year. Now he's 11th. He leads the NFL in deep yardage. And by the way, all four of these quarterbacks are really good at deep passing. Yes, they are. Every single, according to PFF, every single team here is the top six and explosive passing plays. So I think there's probably a lesson in there.

But we'll get to that in a second. With Brady in particular, what is the most impressive thing he's done to change about himself this year that has caused him to improve so much year to year? Right. Well, you know, first off, like the explosive thing and the, that to me is the game right now. Like teams like the New Orleans Saints, the dink and dunk, 12 play 80-yard drive, you know, that's dying. That's going away.

You can see why. You can't do that consistently in the playoffs against playoff defenses. That's why they can never advance to the Super Bowl in New Orleans. NFL football has become like baseball to a degree, Kevin. It's home runs and strikeouts. It's all about, yeah, we might miss the tackle because we were trying to punch the ball out and strip the ball. We don't give a damn.

The guy got five extra yards. We were trying to change the game and get the ball back with a turnover. You know, we weren't looking for the four-yard completion. We were looking to change the game and change field position and put pressure on you. and run 20 and 30-yard routes down the field. Brady's arm, first off, Kevin, never gets the credit deserves. It is an all-time arm. It's maybe not Aaron, Rodgers, Brett Farb, John Elway, okay?

It might not be that, but it's the next group down. As far as powerful, the ability to throw the deep ball. And there's really never been an issue with his ability to do it. It's been the want-to to do it. My complaint, and if you listen to my podcast, you probably heard, me say this over the last two years is his unwillingness to stand in the pocket and wait for some of the downfield throws to open. That was my biggest critique of his game. And he was never forced to have to do it in New England because they have an unbelievable short passing game

and attack. He goes to Tampa. They don't have all those short passing game attack and plays. He was kind of forcing the corner like, hey, listen, this is what we do. And we need you to do this and help us a little bit. And the biggest adjustment I saw, Kevin, again, his arm is deep ball throwing. I always thought the ability was there. But they did the right thing in, and if you watch it, you watch this weekend, they'll bring an extra tackle in to have six-man pass protection. They'll lead gronkin with two tight ends. So they have an extra guy. So Brady can drop back and not feel like he's got people breathing down his neck. And then he can feel comfortable and throw the ball, which is perfectly normal for every quarterback, let alone

when you're 43, it's going to be, you know, amped up a little bit about protecting your body and getting the ball out of your hand. To me, that's the biggest adjustment. And once he got feeling protected, he got more and more confidence. Okay, I'm okay. I can throw this. And it's just continued to go on an upward trend all year long. When you talk about the dink and dunk stuff, because it's so fascinating because I saw a thing the other day that it was basically like, you know, completion percentages again in an all-time high and yards per target is just way down. It's just ridiculous how some of these offenses go.

It's kind of a chicken and egg thing. Is that because of the way the quarterbacks are coming in? Or is that just because of conservative offensive play callers who'd rather favor the completion, you know, close to line of scrimmage, whatever? How did it get to a point where there's only a handful of teams who can excel at the deep pass? Well, I think that you're going to, you're seeing the change happen.

Yes. right now in front of us. The spread offense, for the most part, is dying out in the NFL. Yeah, I know Kansas City and the bills got it with the special quarterback in teams, but if you really start to break it down, I mean, the Buccaneers are a running football team and balance and they want to run play action pass. The Saints are a running football team and want to run play action pass. The Rams are a running football team and want to run play action pass.

The 49ers are a running football team. team and run a one run a want to run play action pass that's the same for the cleveland browns you know baltimore's a running team my point being is i think again the the quarterbacks are very talented in football right now the receivers are very talented you know passing and catching is going to be really good but i think the dink and dunk aspect is done because the seattle scheme kind of took it away with eight people at the line of scrimmage and just like everything kevin you know the more and more teams see it, the better they get at defending it. And it's all over college football.

But you know what's not around college football? A pulling guard and a fullback coming downhill at a safety and a linebacker. And that's where like the guys like Bill Belichick, the Tennessee Titans are another team that are like that, I think they're going, no, I think this is the future of play action pass, 20, 30 yard completions, things like that that are real game changing type plays. and they're realizing the risk-reward factor for jamming in a five-yard throw with the Devin White's and the Jamal Adams of the world all there, and then the defense ends sticking their hands up.

It's just not worth it anymore. And I just feel like that's where the game's going right now. Yeah, it's fascinating. With the Bills and the Chiefs in particular, obviously everything depends when Patrick Mahomes passes his test, and the independent neurologist signs off on him playing. Do you think there's any path to victory if Mahomes, cannot play this weekend for the Chiefs?

It would be very tough. It would be to me one of those things where, you know, Tyrone Matthews got to have a huge interception and have a big return. Chris Jones is going to have to have a strip-sack fumble to win the football game. I don't think this game is going to look anything like the first time around when they played in week six. I think both teams are at different places. And both teams, I think, are not, they've said, like, the hell with balance.

You know, first off, I expect Patrick. Patrick Mahomes to play. I do. I would be shocked if he does not. But, you know, the first game was, what, 26 to 17? I think this game has more of a chance to be what we thought the first one will be, which is drop back every time, every play and throw the football and let Josh Allen and Mahomes win the games. That's what these two teams are, you know, Kansas City's got better players throughout the roster. But if Mahomes isn't playing, you know, I don't. don't think they can win the game, Kevin. Sorry. Yeah, no, I'm in agreement with you.

And obviously, just from a football perspective, I just hope Mahomes plays because Mahomes versus Josh Allen on one side, and then obviously Brady and Rogers on the other side would just be a day of football heaven. We'll get you out of here on this, Chris. Philip Rivers retired today or Wednesday, if you listen to this on Thursday, I'm curious where you would rank him, just from a talent standpoint, if you put all those guys from his generation, we'll say the post-Bradie generation, maybe we'll include Rogers, because obviously that was just one year later.

If you, you know, Rathisberger, Manning, whatever, if you put them all on with equal talent, equal coaching staff, whatever, where would you rank Rivers as far as just pure talent and quarterbacking? I think, first off, Rivers, I think I view him and look at him, NFL legend, awesome player. I got the utmost respect for how he played the game, attacked the game. I love this attitude, his talking crap, all of that. I loved it. I really do. And his consecutive streak, you know, start to me is more impressive than Eli Manning and some of the other ones that are out there because Rivers,

he'll hang in the pocket all day long and get killed and crushed and never was going to just go down or not or just go down without a fight. I don't think he's a Hall of Fame quarterback. I will say that. I think he's on the outside looking in. In fact, I think he's like my dad in a lot of ways, Bill Sins. He's going to be a guy that's a legend, but probably never gets in and did a lot of stuff that was great and all of that. I know the numbers are phenomenal, but everybody's numbers are going to be phenomenal through this era.

It's a different era. I mean, we just talked about it. You know, the dink and dunk, I mean, you know, back in 2011, we could go to commercial break and, like, Jim Nance would be like, Peyton Manning's on fire. He's 10 for 11 for 150 yards. And I'm like, yeah, but he didn't throw a ball past four feet yet. numbers are going to be insane. He didn't throw, you know, sometimes you go, he didn't throw a ball past the line of scrimmage. He's got a hundred yards passing already.

But that's where it'll be misleading. As far as lined up to those guys, listen, I think Aaron Rogers is the greatest quarterback of all time. I've never seen anybody better than Rogers. Okay. I'm just going to say that. I'm not all about the Super Bowl rings and all that. You probably know that by listening to my podcast. Yep. I think Big Ben is clearly more talented than a Philip Rivers. Philip and Eli is really close. It's really, really, really, I would say Philip's career to me is better.

Eli has marquee wins and some clutch moments that Philip never has. So that's where like in the Hall of Fame conversation, I expect Eli Manning to get in. I would tell you that I don't think necessarily he deserves to get in either in the Chris Sims Hall of Fame. But he'll probably will get in because of the two Super Bowl wins

and his last name's Manning and those things. So, you know, of those guys and that, yeah, I guess I'd say, you know, he's towards the top, but he's not one of the top two or three of that era, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Interesting stuff. Chris Sims, Sunday Night Football, Chris, Chris Sims on Button Podcast. Thanks for joining us. You the man, Kevin. I really appreciate because I didn't go on camera, but I love watching you talking to Mike

and move around and have all your movement and you're swaying back to forth. That was very entertaining for me to watch. And also, don't forget me having to walk away from the microphone to drink my coffee in case there was any sort of sound that was made. So a lot of it was, I was like a rock singer kind of backing away from the microphone to do whatever I wanted to do. You're very talented. You really are. And you are very good at your job. Thanks for having you, man.

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All right, join now by two of my favorite people, even though I just met Jim 20 minutes ago. Jim Monos, former director of player personnel for the Buffalo Bills, former Saint Scout, former Eagles Scout, and Nora Princiotti of the Runner.com. Jim, what's going on, man? Kevin, Nora, nice to join your guys' show. I really enjoyed listening to you guys. Really fun to be talking about some football.

Jim, Kevin did not start calling me one of his favorite people right after meeting me on Zoom. So you should be pretty pumped, even though I'm a little mad. Jim sucked up to me. We were talking about Orlando restaurants as soon as he hopped on the Zoom. That was over then.

Oh, come on. That is pandering. What were your Orlando takes? What were your Orlando takes when we first met three years ago? They were probably snarky and mean. Yeah, exactly. Jim used to scout UCF. He knows all the barbecue joints all over Orlando.

It was, he had an advantage, a competitive advantage here. Jim, this is the first time that I realized that Kevin and I might be like work friends or that he might not absolutely hate me was when Washington did training camp in Richmond, Kevin once messaged me and was like, hey, I'm in town. Do you want to get dinner or something? Are you staying in this place? And then when he found out that I couldn't be there within 10 minutes because we were staying in different hotels, he was just like, ah, can't do it.

Sorry. There's only two hotels in Richmond. I'm not crossing town. Sorry. And there were plenty of football writers at my hotel. So I had a great dinner that night. I will remember it for the rest of my life. It was one of the funniest.

is just like, I like you, but not that much. I had an amazing dinner with the people in my hotel. That's what I was going to say. Is that a true sign of, did he really like you? Or is it, it's based on how close you are to get to the restaurant? Kevin just likes convenience. He has, he's a man of standard. I'm a convenience guy.

I'm a convenience guy. There's like a three block radius I will travel to outside. I respected it so much that I couldn't even really be mad. Or does that just mean, Kevin, you're efficient. You like efficiency. Yes. Exactly. I'm an efficiency guy.

You know this. You were a scout. You don't have time to, you know, waste. You can't cross town for things. You're going to go to the barbecue joint by UCF. You get it. All about efficiency. All right.

So we're going to do something, a very simple exercise. I think it's going to be a lot of fun, which is basically what is the path? How do these four teams get to the Super Bowl and win it? What has to break right for them? What do they have to get better at? Whatever it is, could be anything. We're going to start with the Buffalo Bills. Jim, what has to go right?

Well, so Kevin and Nora, I do need to tell you when I always laugh on pregame shows, you know, before the game, they say keys to victory. Because sometimes I think keys to victory could be the same. You could just copy and paste that for every single game. I always say don't turn the ball over and hopefully your quarterback is really good. And if those two things happen, you probably will win. But in this case, you have four great quarterbacks, obviously. They're playing at a high level. And these teams don't turn the ball over.

So there are going to be some hidden advantages, disadvantage, I think, for these teams. For the bills, you know, the bills have been a first half, incredibly dominant first half team this year. And they like to get up on teams and make you play from behind because Leslie Frazier, to me, I've been around Leslie Frazier, a lot of my career in Philadelphia and then again in Buffalo for a little bit. He's a great man and a great coach. And Sean McDermott loves defense as well. And when they get up on people, they dictate to you. on defense. They're messing with you then.

And I think that's going to be important. I think it's going to be really key to see if the bills can get up on the Chiefs at half time. And I think they'll believe. I think the bills 100% know they can win this game. And these teams are very identical. When you look at just statistically, there's not a big gap in any, like,

there's no mismatches, really. Like, neither team really has been running the ball that well lately. I think the Chiefs have been a little without E-Layer. I think they've been a little off with their running games. game and they become one dimensional. If Mahomes isn't healthy, which forget the concussion stuff, he was limping around a little bit. You know, he took a shot in that game where he wasn't running around like he usually does.

And that makes that interesting to me if they can't just sit there and throw that thing around and run the ball. The bills can make you look bad if you're one dimensional. That's interesting. You know, obviously we were talking beforehand that you knew Sean McDermott from your time in Philadelphia. you overlapped with him a little bit in Buffalo. Obviously, you were part of the regime, the Doug Whaley regime that brought in a handful of these guys, Dr. Chedadavius White. I think you were there when someone like Jerry Hughes obviously was playing a role since

he's been there for seven years. Is there a guy, first of all, from a player perspective, that we're not talking enough about on Buffalo who could swing one of the next two games if they get there? No, I think the Jerry Hughes and the secondary has really been brought to life by the media, I think for Buffalo recently, which has been pretty good to see because they do deserve a lot of recognition. The bill's linebackers have really played better than people think

and not Edmonds. I'm not a huge Edmonds fan when I watch him. I don't think he is their, I don't think he's their best linebacker. When it shows up, Matt Milano and AJ Klein have made some really special plays for them that go unnoticed a little bit. But seeing those guys,

and that's a credit to the, coaching staff as well in Buffalo, but those guys are good football players and really shows they have good football players at every level on defense. Matt Malano is from Orlando, by the way. Well, I love Matt Malano. I'm about to defend Matt Malano. So here is my nice thing about Orlando. Matt Malano, I feel like takes some lumps publicly. I don't have a super nuanced way of explaining this. All I know is that when he was out this year, they looked significantly worse. Yeah. He, no, I so. That's right. Yeah. No, he. He's, you know, he's an undersized linebacker, obviously,

but that's okay at this point in the game because you need guys that can run and be physical with tight ends, especially Kelsey. And Kelsey's a mismatch for anybody no matter what. It could be Milano, it could be Poirer, it could be Trey. Like, you can't, tight ends to me have become, as far as draft-wise, they need to be valued in the top 15, top 10 picks now. They're the biggest mismatches in football.

And if you can find guys like Kelsey, which I know they're hard to find, but you find them. It used to be like, don't take a tight end in the first round, wait to the second round. No, these guys are the mismatches right now.

And Kelsey's the nightmare. The bills, to me on offense, are a tight end like that away from being unstoppable. That's fascinating. Nora, what's your,

what's your bills, breaks right scenario? Yeah, so I think they need to create some red zone turnovers because their defense, it has not been as locked down as it was last year,

but one thing that I do really like about what they do and what they have personnel-wise is just a lot of those guys in the secondary are ball hawks. And that's a conversation that I think we've had a few times. But Johnson, who's their primary slot corner, he's really good at this. And if you look at the offenses that they're likely to be facing, you know, certainly with Kansas City, but then either of the NFC teams, we can pretty much assume that these games are likely to be shootouts. And that's the type of thing that swings a game, right? Is you get a turnover in the zone. And I think they have the personnel to do it. And I think that's the type of thing that,

you know, you look back and you go, okay, these guys were going blow for blow all game. But when it came down to it, that seven point swing or potentially a 14 point swing if they can go down and score, which when we look at how they've played all season, that's not a tough bet. That's the game right there. So obviously, you know, like what Jim was saying, you look at these teams and kind of go, okay, well, if the quarterback goes off, which is totally feasible for any one of these teams, that's the biggest thing. But those little edges beyond that,

I think that's a huge one for Buffalo. You know, Nora, that's a good observation you make about those safeties. When we hired Sean and our first free agent class that we signed was Poirier and High. And Sean, when I say Sean, coach Sean McDermott, he believes in safety, he's not looking for the Jamar. all Adams. You know, he's not looking for the headhunters. He's looking for the

ball hawk safetys, the instinctive guys that can, you can interchange them any way. They can both play free, strong. Maybe they've played some corner in the past. And you see that with Poirier and Hyde. And that's why we value those guys in that free agent class. Hmm. That's what interesting. Well, just, I mean, it's a great. Like, how do you stop the chiefs? You're not, I'm not looking at that going, okay, they just have to, you don't want to bend, but not break, right? You want a big play because if the assumption is that Kansas City is not going to be able to move the ball or if it's the Super Bowl and it's the Packers, the idea that they're not going to be able to move the ball. That to me is a really bad bet. You don't want to be in that

situation where it just needs to be incremental and consistent. Like, they're going to make some plays. These teams are too good. These offenses are too good. But the big playability is one thing that I really like about the defense for Buffalo. Yeah. 100% with that. So I mean, we just talked with Chris Sims in this last segment about all of these quarterbacks being generally pretty good at the deep ball. Josh Allen is third in deep completions. He unfortunately has the second most interceptions with five. Success on the deep ball is going to matter so much here. And this is something we talked about in the last segment, but, you know, Honey Badger, you know, interception, if that's waiting, if there's a strip sack, if there's just, I think hitting those home runs and

limiting strikeouts, I guess you could say is so important. And we've talked all, all year about the improvement Josh Allen has made. And I just think that this is, if he plays a complete game, it's going to be really hard if Mahomes isn't 100%. Jim, I'll ask you this. With Josh Allen in particular, what stands out about his improvement that has impressed you? You know, guys, we, you know, I started a podcast. It's called the Go Long podcast at the beginning of the seat, you know, a couple weeks ago.

And the major part, the reason we started this podcast, it was Tyler Dunn, who's a writer. We started talking about Josh Allen. His first two years were not good. I mean, you didn't see these signs of franchise quarterback. You were holding your breath if you're the bills. And to take it a step further for you guys, our first episode was basically about, you know, Terry, our owner for the bills when I was there, Terry Pabula,

he wanted Patrick Mahones in the draft. And McDermott didn't want him. I didn't want them. Like, we didn't want them. The GM, we just thought it was a little risky, blah, blah, blah. We make that trade. We get Trey White and the bills, to their credit, Brandon Bean and McDermott took Josh Allen.

But until this year, they're holding their breath. And his improvement, his accuracy, and a feel in the pocket, he makes every throw now. He couldn't throw on the run the first two years. These playoff games, he was throwing on the run. I mean, those guys were making great catches on the sideline, but I'm telling you, his improvement is as good as I can think of. I can't really compare him to somebody that had two years where he had.

And then third year, it's like, bang. Okay, so you brought up a good point that I think needs exploring. You didn't want Patrick Mahomes. You were a part of the decision-making process. What happened there? You know, we talked about this, but it's a credit to the Terry Pagula and Kim Pagula, the owners. They didn't overstep, but they wanted Mahomes. And Sean McDermott and us as a GMs and personnel staff, we just felt like, hey, we're trying to build this long-term.

Let's keep Tyrod Taylor for this year. and let's see what we can do and let's get some more picks and let's build this thing because nobody in our building had conviction on the homes being what he is. And obviously we passed on Michael Jordan and I talk about that and I think about it

pretty much daily. But I'm happy to see that the bills have made, you know, they've made the most out of that trade for sure. I mean, to think it could have been a lot worse. I always think about the bears, you know, they traded up in that draft to take Trubisky. At least we didn't do that.

I mean, at least we got Trey White and, you know, they used that pick to get Josh Allen too. Jim, I heard a million Bears fans listening to this and going, well, at least we're not going to catch a stray in this. At least it's the bills who passed on the homes. Nope, sorry. It's still the Bears.

It's still the Bears fault because the bills, the bills made the best out of it. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think that when you think about those teams that have passed on, like you said, Michael Jordan, it's really hard to recover from that. But at least they, you know, listen, all as well that ends well, they're in the same round as the chiefs, all that stuff. Jim, is there any path forward if Mahomes cannot play this weekend? Oh, no.

No, they're not winning that game without him. Not my opinion. I totally agree. Totally agree. All right, let's get you the Chiefs here. Jim, we'll start with you. What's their best case scenario of next two games? Well, we just talked about he's got to be healthy, obviously.

And as long as they can protect him and we got to see how he's moving around. But they are, they are the best team. We always have that, you know, we have that memory of them just carving people up from a year ago. and they're unstoppable, but they haven't really played like that this year, especially the last half of the year. I mean, they didn't really, you know, they won games like they had to. They got to the playoffs. But, I mean, we can make an argument.

I mean, we all watch that game. Cleveland could have won that game. That defense on Cleveland, that secondary is not that good. So to sit here and think that cheese have an easy road, there's no way. I mean, they're going to have to play really well. I mean, you look statistically against the bills. They're the same in every category, like red zone scoring, third down, offense, third down defense, it's all the same.

So they're not dominating teams like that. And that's when I think the quarterbacks separate themselves. I hate to say it like that, make it simple. But I think if whoever plays better between Josh and Mahomes, who makes those third down throws in the red zone throws, I think that's who wins that game. Nora? So it's really about Mahomes, of course. And if he's, what they need is they need a healthy Patrick Mahomes.

That's it. We're identifying that as the true and obvious answer. but I'm going to give you another one for the sake of conversation. I think if Travis Kelsey has 200-yard games, the Chiefs win the Super Bowl. And it's been really interesting to me to watch over the last couple of years, him kind of leveling up, I think, from really, really good to great player to someone who we look at as maybe one of the best at the position ever is a little strong.

But I'm so, my sort of history with thinking about this is so colored by, all that time when I was covering the Patriots, like one of the easiest way to just get Patriots fans angry was to start a Gronk versus Travis Kelsey debate, which was fair, right? Like, he's not the Blonker that, blocker that Gronk is and has been.

I tried to say blocker and Gronk at the same time and it came out Blonker, which is a word that I think Gronk would really like. I was going to say that. I see that I'm kind of catchy, actually. Yeah. But it's so interesting to me because I think the idea of these really good tight ends as just really big wide receivers, however many years ago, that felt like much more of a pejorative than it does now. And that's not me saying that Travis Kelsey doesn't give them anything to support the run game and as a blocker.

And he's, I wouldn't want to block him. but I just think that what he is as a mismatch is viewed a little bit differently now than it was a few years ago, at least compared to the gronks that were really, really dominant at that point. And it's a fascinating example just of a small way in which I think football has changed a little bit. But I also think that, okay, you look at their offense. Tyree Kill is the one that keeps defensive coordinators up at night and is the biggest challenge in terms of how you handle. But I think having another receiving option in Kelsey who has that type of just, holy crap, how do we deal with this connection with Mahomes? When you have two of those, there's an unstoppable in that. So I think a couple big games out of him.

And by the way, now, if they don't have a healthy Mahomes, I just think it's sort of game over. but if you wanted to make the case, having a player like that go off who can cue you into what defense you're facing, give the quarterback a lot of easier reads and tip him off like that a little bit, that's a big deal too. So I think that if he goes off,

that's a huge pathway for Kansas City. Jim, it's been a decade since Shaman Dermott and Andy Reid worked together, but obviously you were in Philadelphia with both of them, you know both of them. Is there some sort of advantage for either of these guys, just the fact that Andy Reid, obviously, has gone against Sean McDermott's defenses and vice versa.

Does that matter or is 10 years too long a time for anything to be fleshed out? No, I don't think we could look that hard into it to say there's advantage, disadvantage based on that. But I will say this, Andy Reid fired Sean McDermott. You know, people forget this, you know, and he felt like he was just a little too young after he promoted in the deep. defensive coordinator and fired him. And when we, you know, we called Andy Reid when we were interviewed Sean, obviously, and

asked about that. And that's what he told us. It was just he was replacing a legend. But don't think for a second, you know, Sean McDermott holds Andy Reid in a high regard. Don't think for a second. If you've been fired before, you think you want to get back to that person. Don't think Sean's not excited about this game. Wow.

That's interesting. Is there something we don't know? Let's do both of these guys. This is something we don't know about Sean McDermott, don't know about Andy Reid. We'll start with Sean McDermott. It's hard to say. The biggest difference between them when I grew up, when I was there in Philly, you know, we were so young. Sean was Coach Reed's assistant.

I was like a scouting assistant. Yeah. So I always tell the story, Coach Reed, you can see, you know, Sean was always working out. You know, he was always in the, you know, he would eat the same thing every day, had a very routine. Coach Reed was type of guy would walk in, hey, hey, Jimmy, he would always say, hey, Jimmy, if we were working late, hey, get a, you know, get a large pepperoni and then whatever you guys won for you. You know, like basically I'm taking that, and I would get that large pepperoni, take it right to his office. Sean McDermott would always have a diet Coke ready for Coach Reed.

But that's the biggest difference to me. Those guys are so similar. If you watch their press conferences, they're the same. They don't sell anybody out. They always take blame. It's always I got to do a better job if I lose. Hey, we lost to a great team. They say the same things.

Sean paid attention to everything Coach Reed did, how to oversee every part of the team. And I always admired that about Sean. Neither one of those guys, the players love that. They love that those guys will never sell them out. Yeah, I think that's, it's a good parallel to be drawn. Obviously, this might be one of the games of the year. But fortunately, another one of the games of the year is out in another bracket.

So we'll start with Tampa Buccaneers. Jim, where do we start? So I was just talking to people about, I have my new all-time favorite player. Devin White. I had no idea he was that good. And I can't stop thinking about what he did the other day. If you scout or love football and play linebacker, you might as well just watch that game over and over again because that was insane what he did. Now, the guy I want to talk about a little bit on Tampa's defense I think is made that could make some, you know, problems for Aaron Rogers is Jason Pierre Paul. Who we don't think about a lot anymore. This guy is as talented as defensive end. He'll ever scout in football.

Now, obviously he had his issue with the Giants, with the fireworks, and the hand. But he's back. And these guys on defense, you watch the way they're all playing. They're playing with intent and a viciousness that they're all looking at each other. Like, they just want to attack, attack, attack. And that's, you know, that's contagious. And they're all playing that way right now. That game is going to be, I can't wait to watch that game.

That's going to be interesting. Nora, your best case for the bucks? The best case for the bucks is I want to see them stick with. with what worked for them in December, which was leaning in a little bit more into a type of offense, a style of offense with motion with play auction that is just a little bit more Tom Brady's bread and butter. And I got to say that I was a little bit concerned watching them last weekend because it felt like they were reverting slightly to the first down run, maybe you gain a couple yards on second down. You got a third and short and now we're just dialing up the deep ball. And

I felt like some of those tendencies, they'd done a really good job eliminating after their byweek, which was late, which was in week 13. And it was leading to some really, really good performances. They, obviously, they won that game. They're in the NFC championship game. But they were significantly helped by some short fields and all the turnovers. And I just worry that if they are not going to get that, which I wouldn't count on against Darren Rogers, they're going to need to do themselves a few more favors on offense with the play calling. So I have my concerns that they're going to be at a coaching disadvantage here. And it would go a long way, I think, to lean in a little bit more to what they were doing in late December before the playoffs started.

No, I was going to piggyback off that a little bit with Tampa's defense. You know, I was hyping them up. But they have major issues on third down and their passing defense isn't that good. Green Day's offense is insane. They're number one in points per play, number one in red zone touchdown percentage, number one third down.

It's like how Tampa has like, we always talk about Tom Brady. They have to find a way to stop this offense first and foremost. No, who do you like in this game? I'm changing the Packers. I'm not, I don't want to rule out like a Tom Brady game, but they are,

they look unstoppable right now. I mean, they, I think because there's the unsubbery, certainty with Mahomes. They are the team to me that I was going through the four of these and just going like, eh, keep doing what you're doing. Like, and it should be fine. I think they, they were not my preseason Super Bowl pick, but as of the beginning of the playoffs, they were my Super Bowl pick. And I'm feeling pretty good about that one. Jim, same question. How does this play out? You know, before the, you know, halfway through the year, I was on a show and I picked the Chiefs and

Packers to be in the Super Bowl because the, two best quarterbacks were Mahomes and Rogers, and that's just how I do things. But, you know, if Mahomes isn't, you know, I think the bills can be in Kansas City. I've changed my, over this. I think the bills win that game.

I agree with Nora. I think Green Bay wins this game. They are, I just think on all cylinders are clicking right now. All right. So let's get to the Packers here for a second. So the, I think, by the way,

that the matchup to watch, and this is for both is obviously Jayor Alexander against Mike Evans, because Jerry Alexander became, according to PFF, the only cornerbacks since 2006, to allow negative yards in a playoff game. When Jarro Alexander was playing a Rams receiver last week, they got negative three yards, okay?

You look at the fact that he led, he had basically shut out Mike Evans last time they played, shut out Calvin Ridley, held most of the players he's gone against to two or three or four receptions. He should be talked about among the best players in the league. And so I'm curious as what happened last week, is there, are there weapons that are going to show up like Johnson, like Scottie Miller? It's going to be fascinating to see how much Brady can spread the ball around because he had success last week. Nora, your Packers best case scenario is what? My Packers best case scenario.

So it's funny, again, because I do look at them as such a favorite at this point, I'll phrase it as their best case scenario. But to me, it's really like if this completely doesn't happen and falls apart, then that's the path for them to lose, but what they need is for Aaron Rogers to keep keeping Aaron Rogers clean. And he was not sacked last week against, you know, Aaron Donald was in and out, but against still a pretty good pass rush. And they've lost David Bactiari. And so far, it seems like they're still really, really, really holding on on the offensive line there. And that was what didn't work for them in, I think it was week six when they played the Bucks the first time, was I think he got sacked like four times and just was under a lot of pressure. And that game got away from them

really quickly, even after they got out to a lead initially and it fell apart. So that's the path. Actually, I think that the Bucks, say the Bucks do win this game, I think what they'll have done defensively is that front seven will just have made life really hard on Aaron Rogers. But as long as that offensive line, which does currently have a couple guys playing out of position, I mean, they're really good, but they've withstood some changes lately. Billy Turner flipped a left tackle and then Ricky Wagner's playing right tackle. If they can keep holding that down and he has another postgame press conference where he's talking about there's no dirt on my jersey, then I think they're in a pretty good position. Jim, if you were playing quarterback right now and you had to draft one offensive line that's left in this playoffs, where would you go?

Oh, I like that right tackle for Tampa. they hit on that guy. What he did? Yes. What he did, yes. What he did against the Saints, I thought it was phenomenal because I think the Saints

are about as violent and physical of a pass-rush team as there is this year. I mean, that game against the Chiefs this year, the Saints, they beat my homes up. And, you know, and back to Tim.

You think about Tampa as well, I don't think they should have beat the Saints. I mean, if Cook doesn't fumble that ball, I think the Saints are winning that game and they couldn't throw the ball over 15 yards. So that's not going to happen this week for Tampa. Rogers is going to be able to throw the ball more than 15 yards. And I just, that concern me to think the Saints controlled that game.

And it took a cooked fumble to really break that momentum and switch that game. What is your Packers best case, Jim? I think as long as they don't turn the ball over any crazy, you know how we always watch football. You know, we call it sometimes it's just, wow, that was just who would have seen that play coming. I think as long as you don't see any of those wild, a tit pass by Pierre Paul that get picked off and run back. Tampa's probably going to win. But if they're clean, I agree with North. If he's clean, I don't see Green Bay losing.

Yep, I agree with both you guys. You know, I think that there's also the offensive line. Again, as Roger said, he didn't get touch. I would also say that the pass rush by the Packers was so good last week. Again, 15 of 31 dropbacks were pressured by golf most McVeys had since he became a head coach. they were 11th during the season in pass rush grade in the NFL, which is pretty good, but they were number one for any team in the playoffs through last week. And so I think that there's probably going to be some, I think that if they get some really good

pass rush these next couple weeks, I think that if you add that on to all the other elite skills they have, well, that's Jaya Alexander in the secondary, whether that's Aaron Rogers being the best quarterback in football, where that's Devante Adams being. unstoppable with the goal line and elsewhere. I think this package team probably wins the Super Bowl. All right, guys, we'll get you out of here on this. Jim, we were talking before we started recording about you being in the building as a scout with the Saints when Drew Breeze was signed.

What do you remember about that and what is his legacy having retired now? It was so crazy to watch that the other night. And we used to joke around in the draft room. This is back in like 2009 and 10, we were, you know, rolling. and Breeze had a lot of years left. But we used to always say as scouts, we wanted Breeze to give us like a year or two-year notice before he was going to retire

so we could start looking for jobs because we were like, this is insane how good our offense was with him. But when we signed him, you know, he was injured. You know, when he came off, obviously it's been documented, the dolphins didn't pass him physically, but we did.

And when we first watched him in training camp, it didn't look good. I mean, the ball was dying. We thought, wow, the dolphins were right. We might have messed up. He got healthy and the rest of his history. But I know the Saints right now, you know, that leads me to one thing I wanted to talk to you guys about. This is going to be the most insane offseason.

I think in the history of the NFL for quarterback movement. It's going to be incredible to see what happens. There are so many teams that don't have one and so many guys that are available. That's something that's going to be fun to pay attention to. But the Saints are definitely, they're definitely swallowing hard right now. now because I don't think James Winston is the answer. Hill's not the answer. So what are they going to do a quarterback?

That's always been the question when he was going to retire, and they haven't answered that yet. All right. Well, I love the fact that we did 30 minutes on this, and the biggest L taken was by Bears fans 20 minutes ago. But this has been incredible. Jimanos, Norprinciotti. Thanks for joining us, guys. Thanks, Gab. Thanks, guys.

All right, joined now by my new colleague, Mirren Fader, Staff Rider for the Ringer, Mirren, what's going on? Hi, it's so good to be with you. Yeah, I'm really excited about this. So you wrote a long profile of Devante Adams called Devante Adams is peaking in every way possible. It ran last week on the ringer.com. A very interesting piece. I want to start big picture with this.

You know, he said that he felt like he's watching himself from above watching himself this year and just his improvements and all that stuff and how well he's playing. Obviously, as the headline says, he's peaking right now. He is one of the best wide receivers in football, the stats show that the tape shows that. How is he processing this? And how does he, I guess, what is his headspace right now going into some of the biggest games of his career? His headspace is that Devante literally feels like nobody can stop him. There's a confidence there that he just did not have earlier in his career. Watching yourself play from above is such an astute way to put it.

It's almost like an out-of-body experience. There's a level of maturity. There's a level of confidence that it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of him, whether they think he's the best or not or leaves him off of some list. He has this inner self-awareness that's like, no, I know I'm the best. And I'm going to show it every single time. So I want to talk briefly about just his rise towards this, because as you say in the piece, this didn't happen overnight.

I mean, there were Packers fans. I remember his rookie year saying that he was a bust. I think there was a story. His second year, I think, one of the B-Rider says he was on the roster bubble. I think that was shot down pretty quickly, but that was the conversation around him. It wasn't, he's going to be one of the best wide receivers in the game

where he's going to be the reason Eric Rogers is playing in an AFC, NFC championship game or anything like that. When you talk to him about that rise, what do you think the biggest kind of bullet points are for how he got better and how improved? He got better because he had to take a look at himself and take responsibility. like they're right. I am not doing well.

I am dropping passes. You know, I think that's the first thing. You can blame other people or you can take responsibility. And Devante knew that he was not playing up to his potential. And he knew that he needed to get better. I think for him, nothing has ever been guaranteed. If you look at his trajectory,

even before he wasn't playing well, he was never expected to go division one. He had two offers. So there's always been this mentality of, I have to prove myself. And so I think those down years in Green Bay was just like, they literally might cut me. Like, this might be over for me.

I have to get it together. And I think that, you know, awful Thanksgiving game that I mentioned in the piece was really the turning point. He never wanted to feel that low again. He never wanted to feel that humiliated again. And I think when you can look at yourself and say, I need to do better, that's when you really start to improve and confidence is developed from the work that he put in. Tell me about his relationship with his family, because I think that there was a lot of athletes who say they're driven by the family or whatever. but this felt like he had, this felt real, quite frankly. And it wasn't just the cliche.

He kind of rose above that. Tell me about the relationship with his daughter and just sort of how that that plays into his mindset. Yeah. When Dante had, when Devante had his daughter, Dacia, his whole world sort of widened. And usually when your world widens, you become a parent, you have all these new responsibilities. But in a really strange and wonderful way for Packers fans, it allowed him to focus more. It allowed his determination to deepen more. He suddenly had all these new joys of being a parent and allowed him to calm down.

It allowed him to see football in its rightful place, which, yes, this matters so much to me, but it is just the game. And I think Deja, who knows nothing about football, does not care what her daddy does on the field, really grounds him. And there's nothing like coming home for him and seeing her and realizing what's important in his life. And so, you know, she's also his number one motivating force. Everything he does on the field, he will literally see an,

image of her face in his head. What will she think of me if I don't do this rep? What will she think of me if I make a mistake? And I think that what we're seeing right now is somebody that is like deeply moved by trying to make his baby girl proud of him. I know, that's, that's great. I wonder, you know, you mentioned in the piece how hard he is on himself and how he can talk about coverage as he didn't take advantage of four years ago or whatever it was.

When you're going through and talking to him about that stuff, what stood out specifically? Was there a moment? was there a play where you say, wow, this guy is not only thinking about this all the time, but he's learned how to correct this. What stood out when you were talking about just his drive for self-improvement based on his past failures? I think what really stood out is how cerebral he is. Like, it's not just like, oh, I remember this one game.

It's like he will break down the intricate part of every single moment. He's very, like his memory is incredible. Like he can recall anything. But I think it's, he remembers how he felt like, oh, I didn't feel like I would. was playing up to my potential or I was disappointed in myself, humiliated. Like when you remember those feelings, that's that's kind of what drives you. But I think the reason why I think tons of people have respect for Devante is because he is such a craftsman.

Like he approaches these things with a workman mentality. You know, there's so many more flamboyant people at his position. And Devante is very just, no, I'm obsessed with the intricacies of the game. I'm a student of the game. I don't need to be loud. I don't need to be flashy. Like I just want to focus on my mistakes. and getting better.

Ron Rogers came out a couple weeks ago, and you lived this in the piece and said that he is, Devante Adams might be one of the best teammates he's ever had. And I think that a lot of times, we don't realize this when we're outside the locker room, but that is as high a praise as you can get. And you hear Tom Brady say this sometimes. You'll say, you know, the best moment in my life

was being named Captain at Michigan, right? It wasn't the Super Bowl. It was just being a good teammate. I think that those guys valued out so much more than maybe we think. What is it about Adams that makes him kind of a locker in presence like that when you were talking to, whether that was Mercedes-Lewis or just people in Devante Adams' life? It's because he's consistent.

So one of the things that, you know, Mercedes-Lewis was saying was like, in this world of the NFL where it's, what have you done for me lately, Devante brings it every single week. Like, he is, he never takes a route off. He is always trying to prove himself as if he is still stuck in that.

We should cut him phase. And so I think, you know, his teammates have such deep reverence for him because he approaches everything, He's about to get cut. And you just don't see that from guys at that caliber. And I think it's so easy to respect his work ethic and his discipline and the way that, like, he holds himself accountable. You know, when Devante screws up, he doesn't point the finger.

And I think they love that about him. And I also think they love that he doesn't really need to say, I'm the best receiver. He just does it, you know, and I think it's so easy for people to become brands and, you know, to talk about themselves constantly. And, like, what they love about Devante is, like, he's the same. guy, whether he was about to get cut or now he signed to Jordan Brand. Like that stuff really doesn't matter to him. Is there, you know, obviously, Marin, you made a name for yourself first by talking to

basketball players and writing these great profiles of them. And now, obviously, you've all, you've done football. You've, I believe you've talked to Devante Adams before, correct? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So is there a difference when you're, in the mindset when you talk to football players versus talking to basketball players when they've reached superstar status?

Interesting question. a little bit. I mean, I think the work ethic is the same, but like the NFL, I don't know, I've just always felt like they're so much more private. They're so much more secret than NBA guys. And I don't know if that's just, you know,

the difference in the league within access. But I just think to get an NFL player to open up is just so much harder. You know, I profiled Aaron Donald. I profiled Sean McVeigh. And like the secrecy in the NFL is just so different than the NBA. But I love profile. all of them because even if Devante Adams was not a football player,

even if he was a basketball player, whatever he decided to do with his life, he wanted to become a freaking painter. He is still a man that loves his daughter and family. And if you can find the humanity in these multimillion dollar athletes, you will see that they are very similar in experience, like very similar things than we do as people. Yeah, I think the secrecy thing is really important because I think that because of the strategy stuff and all that stuff,

There's just more of a veil of secrecy over the entire sport. And so then they don't know where to draw the line exactly. Like they're in secrecy mode so much with the media. Then it's like, oh, wait, I should be able to talk about this. But, you know, I remember covering the NBA and when I first started, you know, 2012 when I was just out of college. And I would, you know, Carmelo or Amory or any of these guys who I was dealing with, they would just tell me the names of plays. I'm sure you've had that before too. And they'd be like, oh, on this, we do this.

Because if you go over to the opposing locker room, they know the plays. And they say it all the time. But in the NFL, like, if you say the name of a play out loud, you know, unless it's, you know, after the Super Bowl or after a conference game or whatever. Like, you have to give some distance because otherwise they're going to, remember, Peyton Manning wouldn't even say what Omaha men. In basketball,

they would have, they would have said that in five minutes. I know. It's really, it's crazy. And like, you know, pre-corona when you would go into an NFL locker room,

like there's so many rules. Like I was standing in the Rams locker room. And I almost was like nervous about breathing in there. There was like, no, you can't stand here. No, you can't do this. And I just went up, I just went up to Jared Gough.

I was like, hi, I have a question. But there was this, whole protocol that I, you know, that that just doesn't exist in the NBA. You know, you can stay in there. We've been in NBA locker rooms. You know, guys just like huddle around the locker room.

The NFL is just not like that. And it's a shame because like Devante, there's so many stories that we need to hear. And I wish it was different. I agree. And hopefully, now that you're at the ringer.com, you'll be telling a heck of a lot more. Thank you so much, Marin Fader. I appreciate you. Read the story on the ringer.com.

Devonte Adams is peaking in every way possible. Thank you so much. Thank you. Nora, we're going live again Sunday after the conference championship games. We're going live. How is your live experience versus normal experience? My live experience is good. I have switched.

So right now as we're speaking, I am situated in my normal sort of work table orientation, which is typically where I podcast and where I've podcasted from throughout the season. I do, when we do our lives, I do them from my couch, which I think has had a really nice, like cozy, fun vibe. But I actually just do it because there's less weird stuff in the background. Getting rid of weird stuff in the background, it's the number one thing for live streams, I would say. Yeah. It's the secret to all of our success. All right. So listen, watch, view. It'll be on Twitter, YouTube, Facebook. It'll be available as a podcast, all that stuff. We'll be on right after the second game wraps up. It'll be a live ring NFL show. So follow us then.