The Ringer NFL Show - Final Takeaways From the 2018 Regular Season | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 374)

Episode Date: December 31, 2018

The Vikings close out a disappointing season with a loss to Chicago, the Eagles continue to ride the Nick Foles wave, and the talented Steelers miss the playoffs (00:30). Plus, stock up on the Chiefs and Colts, stock down on the Jaguars and coaches soon to be fired, and challenge flags on the Bears and Cowboys refusing to lose (28:00). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. After a three-year hiatus, Bill Simmons is back with his NBA trade value rankings for the 2018 and 2019 season. You can check that out as well as our year-in-review articles wrapping up everything 2018 on the site. Also, throughout the holidays, we will be sticking to our regular podcast schedule, so make sure to tune in to your favorite shows as usual. Happy holidays from the Ringer. To the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, bud?

We just saw a very, very strange winner-in game between Indianapolis Colts and Tennessee Titans. And I'm not really sure how to process it. Was that a fun game, Robert? I don't know if it was fun, but I'm not sure what makes it strange in your mind. I think I had a good time. Okay, explain yourself. I don't know.

I just enjoyed watching that game. I mean, it was kind of a, it was a vaguely dumb game. There were some really stupid turnovers, and we got the results. The Titans hung around for long enough, then they started just to commit a penalty on every play, which is fine. And then now we get the result we wanted, which was the Colts play the Texans in a very interesting Saturday game. I don't think there's a real clunker among these playoff games.

No. I mean, if the worst game, I mean, think about this slot that the Cowboys have. I mean, that slot is usually reserved for a game we don't want to watch. And now it's the Cowboys and the Seahawks. It's pretty darn good. I mean, there isn't a single game that you're like, I have no interest in watching this. We have no Buffalo Jacksonville game this year. that game didn't happen. But listen, I think it's also, I mean, I could be talked into any upset on Wild Card Weekend.

We're going to do our big playoff preview on Thursday. We're going to get into the nitty gritty of the individual games. We're going to talk more about the results from today on this show. But I tend to agree with you. I mean, there isn't a single game. I mean, think about it. So it's Colts, Titans, Seahawks, Cowboys, Chargers, Ravens, Eagles, Bears. I hope that one of those games isn't an upset. All the other ones, I don't really mind, and I absolutely think they can be. I'm not even sure we're going to see that big of a spread in any of these games. None of these is going to get to double digits.

And I'd be surprised if any of them were much more than a touchdown. So the bears are the biggest favorite, and every other game is two and a half for the higher seed. That's really interesting. So what are the bears at? Five and a half. See, that's a lot. I mean, yeah, under a touchdown is what I expect a,

for all of them. And five and a half is a decent number considering how well the Eagles have played. We'll get into all of that. But let's start with that game in an indirect way. The Eagles win, the Vikings lose. And that shapes the NFC playoffs. I mean, I know that in your opinion, if you're the Bears, you would have rather face the Vikings.

But we'll see about that. But that's not how it went. So the Eagles win, the Vikings lose. Philadelphia is in this game. And as a Bears fan, I guess that should make me. a little bit scared, considering how the Vikings look today, but I also think there's a chance that Nate Sudfeld is playing quarterback for the Eagles.

So the new report is that Nick Foles has a rib injury, but he seems to be fine. They think it's minor. He's... Or it's an injured rib, Nick Foles. Either way, it's a guy that is not the same quarterback that stepped into this game. Okay, okay. Well, that remains to be seen. What I will say is

that the one thing I know for certain is the Vikings were not ready to win a playoff game. The Minnesota the Vikings team we saw today was not going to win a playoff game. How many playoff games could the Minnesota Vikings have played before you think they would win a playoff game? The version we saw today?

Like an edge of tomorrow situation where they kept, where they could just keep playing playoff games with that team, with that psyche, I don't really know if it was ever going to happen for them. How many times would it take them to get to the little hanger with a helicopter? That's what you're saying? Okay, you remember too much about edge of tomorrow. I've seen it a lot.

It's a great movie. I just got the gist, okay? So it would take them a while. It was a great movie. But listen. So Adam Thielen and Kirk Cousins are fighting on the sidelines. It was great. Is Adam Thewin like secretly kind of a jerk?

We had the Bill Belichick fight earlier this year. We have the on-field Kirk Cousins fight. I've really enjoyed this side of Adam Thielen. And someone asked me who was wrong in that situation. Do you know who was wrong in the situation? The Vikings' offensive line. they all should have gotten together and made fun of the offensive line. So now Mike Florio, I don't know if you saw this,

and Sunday Night Football says that people are keeping an eye on the Minnesota job as far as maybe a head coaching job change, whether that's resignation, whatever the language might be, people are keeping an eye on it. I think it's just a fascinating, you said that sort of the tone of the playoffs changed today. I think maybe the future of Minnesota changed today.

This team, coming into the same, season. I feel like you and I were as high on this team as anybody else in the league. I feel like we both thought they were probably the most stacked roster in the NFC. You could throw the Rams in there as well. I figured we both expected the Eagles to start off slow even if they were going to get back to the playoffs. I think we both thought the Vikings would be in the mix with the Saints and the Rams for

a buy. Yeah. I mean, I definitely picked them to do that. I had them higher than the Saints in my preseason power rankings. I thought that they had a better roster than. the Saints top to bottom, I still believe at full strength they probably do on paper. And that's why this season is so disappointing because the moves they made to try to get them over the top were going to get John DiFilippo instead of staying with Kevin Sifansky

and it was going to get Kirk Cousins instead of sticking with Case Keenum. They tried not to remain with the status quo and not ride with what they got last year. And it didn't get them where they wanted to go. they took a step back that even make the playoffs, let alone being in the NFC championship game, a game away from the Super Bowl. And I don't know where they go from here because now you're pretty much all in. I mean, you've committed to this core based on the amount of extensions that you've signed, based on the Kirk Cousins contract, everything else.

So I'm not sure what the direction is after you have a season like this. So a couple things. Number one, you're going to not want to be one of 11 on third downs. and have 132 passing guards in the biggest game of your season. You're not going to play this bear's defense every week. Okay, but you're going to need a little more. Not every, not every quarterback in 132 yards

when they really needed it. Oh, no, you're going to need to be better than this. Yes. And the Bears were not, probably not going in 100% the whole game. Okay. I think there's huge problems. I think that they put, you know, I've heard Joe Banner talk about this,

and I agree, you know, if you're looking for an overrated team, find a team with lots of good skill guys and a bad line. That will always, that is a recipe for an overrated team. They will not be able to do the things they want to do. One of the lessons of the Eagles

is that they built through their lines. Look at a lot of these teams. I mean, I'm not saying, you look at the chiefs. I'm not saying Eric Fisher, you know, is the greatest first overall pick of all time,

but he's worthy of that extension and he's a good, he's a good tackle. Okay, those chief teams. Mr. Schwartz is the best right tackle is football. Right. Those teams went out and invested in their lines. They figured it out. And the Vikings did not figure it out, even though they knew

it was a problem. And we've gotten angry over this all year. We'll continue to get angry about it in the spring. They knew they had a fatal flaw keeping them from winning the Super Bowl, and they didn't do anything about it. Now, and they had some injuries as well. I mean, they were snake bit at those spots from the get-go, and we probably should have known. I remember being there in Minnesota in August, right after the Nick Easton injury happened. And people would be, you know, Nick Easton, who cares? But they understood there. I think people that covered the team that are rounded every day,

how much the offensive line was going south really fast early in the season and how much it was going to be a problem. And it ended up being a problem. Well, yeah, it did end up being a problem. So, you know, they sort of, you know, one of the things today, you know, I saw a stat, they were the number one defense on third down all year. And they just couldn't get a stop today. The second year in a row pretty much.

Yeah, and they couldn't get a stop today. It was to the point of that some of those third down conversions to Trubisky were embarrassing. It was just a really depressing showing if you're a Vikings fan. And I've said this million times. I looked for reasons that this team was good all year and I just didn't see it. If you stripped away the team, the name Vikings, if you stripped away the player names that we had, we've bought into their talent, we would just see a very, very below average team.

And that's what's disappointing. I don't know what you do now. I know that, you know, one of the things I don't like from a, someone who studies what works in the NFL is hearing Mike Zimmer say, we got to keep running the ball more. I just don't know how you keep doing that, especially when you have Adam Thieland, Diggs, Kirk Cousins, you know, guys where you can have a dynamic passing game in theory.

You know, he's had two offensive coordinators changed midseason, two of the last three years. I start to wonder what the philosophical direction of that team is if you're coming out in the second half and saying, we got to run the ball. Even if moving beyond the philosophical, which I agree with you, I think going to the practical and about kind of reverse engineering Super Bowl champions, this was the type of team personnel-wise that you would expect to win a Super Bowl. Tons of great contracts. Tons of great contracts. So many great contracts and also so much depth at spots that they're not going to have it next. season. So right now, they're looking at

about $11 million in cap space for 2019. Not a lot in 20. It would not a lot compared to a lot of these teams. Not a lot. And considering the guys that they have that are free agents, Shelter Richardson's a free agent, Anthony Barr is a free agent. Those offensive linemen they were missing aren't coming back. Nick Easton's a free agent. Brett Jones is a free agent.

Anthony Harris, who they had to have come in for Andrew Sandejo, is a free agent. They have so many guys that are walking away from their rookie deal. or cheap one-year deals like a Sheldon Richardson, and they have no one on the roster to necessarily replace them. So it's not as if they have a ton of flexibility where it's like, oh, they'll cut this guy, they'll cut that guy.

Trey Wains is a free agent. So you cut him, or Trey Wains is in the last year of his deal. So you cut him and save $9.1 million. It's not as if you're shockful of cornerback depth. You know, my cues is going to be there, Xavier Rhodes. But this is the type of thing that brings you from the most loaded roster in the NFC, possibly to just a pretty good one when you don't have that three deep spot of defensive back, offensive line, everything else.

And it just felt like this was the year with how the roster construction was going. And would you expect Adam Thielen to play another down on his contract? I don't think so. So it just felt like this was the season. Well, you've already got him as a juror. He seems fine. I'm just saying he had gotten more spats this year than I expected him to. Jeez.

Okay. All right. I'm just saying. Okay. So I just don't know philosophical where this entire team is going. You know, I've spent a lot of time around that team in training camp and have enjoyed talking a lot of people in that organization. And their analytics focused, I guess you could say,

they're thinking about the future as much as any team in the NFL, I would say, between the Vikings, the Eagles, a couple other teams there. You know, there are certain teams I think are built for the future of the NFL because of the way they've staffed up in the front office and the coaching staff. And I just don't know. I don't know. I just don't know if wanting to run a conservative offense is what you want to do for the rest of your life. I'm with you on that.

And I also think that their calculus and the analytics that went into building this franchise and trying to build a championship caliber roster, this was the year where I think that all of the levels were where they wanted them to be. Coming into the season, I think that they had set themselves up the way they wanted to. And that's why this is so disappointing. Yeah, it's one of the biggest flops I can remember the last five, six, seven years. It's one of the big, I tend to, and I said this a couple times, I tend to say that the sport and football changed after the 2011 CBA. And I would say post-2011 CBA, this is probably the biggest flop.

I mean, you had the Dream Team Eagles in 2011, but I don't. Yeah, that's before the league. But I also don't think the Dream Team Eagles was, big of a flop. I mean, like, the person who dubbed the team, the dream team was like a bad washed Ronnie Brown. Wasn't Vince Young? It was Vince Young. No, it was about, excuse me, it was about Ronnie Brown. Yeah, it was Vince Young. It was a backup quarterback. No, it was Vince Young talking about Ronnie Brown. Yeah. I mean, it's that team, I think, had one or two big contracts. I mean, they signed Nabi Asamo, everything else. But I think that you could easily argue the Kirk Cousins

contract is a bigger headline deal than the Namdi Assamwa contract was, and it's a quarterback. This is what it was supposed to be. It was supposed to be Kirk Cousins putting them over the top. We discussed this, I want to say two or three weeks ago. But in your mind, would you do the Kirk Cousins deal over again if you were in Minnesota, or do you think it's going to haunt them? So is the other option, Case Keenum, or is it just what's in the bottom? The other option is Case Keenum at his deal. Yeah.

I'd probably actually go cousins. I think so too. I know that sounds strange right now, but let's not, you know, I just, I feel like that's playing the results instead of the process a little bit. I'm with you. I would definitely, I would go with the cousins contract again. I just wanted to give you one more chance to kind of think about it because of how bad it's gone over the last couple weeks, kind of since we recommitted to it.

Yeah, I'm still okay with it. I am too. I would have done it if you gave me the opportunity again. But man, it's going to be a tough couple of years for them because I think of how hard they went all in this season. What do you do with Anthony Barr? Do you bring back Anthony Barr at his market level? I don't think you can.

I don't know. Mike Zimmer loves Anthony Barr. But, I mean, what do you have to pay Anthony Barr to bring him back? I mean, at least probably double-digit million a year if you consider the past rushing kind of potential there. Yes. And you have $11 million. cap space and you have no interior of an offensive line. I mean, this team is really up against it

right now. And that's, again, the window, it closes really fast, man. Yeah, without a doubt. And now, speaking of windows, guess whose windows continued to open? Do you think it is, do you think it is open? I guess that's what I say. Do you think the Eagles are dangerous? The Nick Foles window? There's two different windows. There's the Eagles window, which I think is longer than people expect because of the way they've built that team and just the depth they have

just going forward. But then there's Nick Foll's window, which is infinite and includes a Super Bowl every single year. Yeah. Someone just asked me, I don't know if you saw this. I don't know if you're on it. Someone just tweeted at me five minutes ago. If Nick Foles wins a Super Bowl

MVP again this year to see make the Hall of Fame. why would his case be any worse than like Eli Manning? No, I think that's the question. No, I mean, he absolutely does not. But what if Eli Manning gets in? Well, Elon Manning has 15 years as a starter. And yeah, and he had two good years like Nick Foles.

He like played 12 good games like Nick Foles. I don't even know if he's played 12 total good games in his career. Nick Foles? We had 2013, then he had the Super Bowl. This is the hypothetical when she's about to have four good games. Oh, okay. So if we throw those four in there? Yeah.

And then you had the seven touchdown game in Oakland. The whole thing is crazy. And watching him play today, I mean, he had the terrible interception early in the game. And he looked fine. And then, I mean, obviously Sudfeld comes in at the end.

I don't know. This team is still frightening. And I wish that the bears didn't have to play them. But I don't know how frightening they actually are or how much this is just kind of lingering respect for what we thought of him last season. I really, I honestly don't know the answer.

I'm not saying they're not scary. I'm just saying I don't know. I have no idea what the hell is going on there. And I do, as I said, if I were the bears, I would have done anything possible to play this Vikings team again. I don't know if that would have been the plan going into it. I understand there's probably some weird, you know, bromance, not weird, they work together between Doug Peterson and Matt Nagy.

And that, you know, I think that there's a, you know, laying down and letting the Vikings win 30 to nothing, which is, oh, by the way, If the Bears had totally lay down today, there's no guarantee that the Vikings would have taken advantage. No, and I think that if you're the Bears, you had to wait until the second half to even start laying down because of the Rams.

Of course. But what I'm saying is I would have done everything in my power to see this team again next week. Yeah, I can understand that. And we'll get into this on Thursday. We've seen the ceiling on Nick Foles. And it is literally winning the Super Bowl with, by the way, let's not act like Nick Foles was the only player on that

Carson once was the only injured player in 2017. I mean they were playing on the backup left tackle. I mean, I, you know, they were the Eagles were a huge problem for a lot of front offices and a lot of coaches because they won the Super Bowl with a lot of holes through

injury. They didn't make excuses and they just instead won the Super Bowl. My concern, and I think the reason that I'm afraid of the Eagles and the reason this could be a problem is because like you said earlier, their lines are the strength of the team, if you're just looking at the roster overall,

and they're getting right at the correct time. Jason Peters was back today. He played well. Jason Kelsey's played well the entire season. Lane Johnson was hurt for a couple of games, but he's back. And that defensive line, despite all of their other deficiencies defensively,

is playing extremely well and just is loaded with really good players. And I think that's why they're frightening, because those elements are as good as they've been and they're coalescing at the right time. That's what makes me concerned about what's going to happen next weekend. Okay, right now, right now, December 30th, 2018,

who's a better coach, Doug Peterson and Matt Nagy? Doug Peterson. Okay. Who has the better quarterback? Nick Foles or Mitch Trubiskey? Nick Foles, but I'm not sure about how much. So I wanted to just go through that exercise with you. So they have a better coach and better quarterback,

the lines do a nice job neutralizing the deep. They're not going to, they're not going to, you know, destroy the bear's defense. Bears defense is way too good for that. But I'm just saying, I think that there's, there's a real case to be made here that the Eagles could steal this game. I agree.

They absolutely could. Again, I think it's rooted in. I'm not, I'm not, what I'm trying to do is present an argument that's not just Nick Foles is a magic god. Oh, I am not a, Nick Foles is not where my fear is rooted. My fear is rooted in Fletcher Cox.

That is what I'm worried about. My fear is fruit in Fletcher Cox and in Lane Johnson and Brandon Brooks and Jason Kelsey grinding shit out on the ground. It's 20 to 14. It's third and 11. And it's Darren Sprouls.

In my mind, it's more about the ability for the Eagles to not dominate, but hold their own against the bears in the trenches. And then the other side of that is, I'm not sure if the bears have the downfield passing game to take advantage of the Eagles where they're weakest. And that's in the secondary. Guys like Cravon LeBlanc,

who have seen play for the Bears. That's where you can take advantage of the Eagles. And I'm not sure if the Bears are built to do that. And if the Eagles can muck this game up and stick with the Bears on either side of the line of scrimmage with that offensive line, this game is going to be close. I think five and a half is a lot.

I do too. I don't think we're doing worse picks for the playoffs, but it's a worst pick. Yeah. I would definitely not take the Bears minus five and a half because I think that's a field goal game either way. All right. Do we want to get into one more here with the Steelers missing the players? Yes, of course we do. What, uh, first of all, the Browns, the Browns should have won that game. Yeah, I was bummed. That was really fun. I was very into that game. You said

that the, the what's it called game was entertaining. I was very entertained by the Browns' Ravens game. That was the highlight of my day. I want to bring you into the psyche because I watched that game with another reporter who brought it up on his phone in the Chiefs locker room. And do you know how the Chiefs reacted? how they didn't give a shit because they're the one seed they're not worried about it yeah it was actually kind of i'm sure they weren't watching with bated breath well two players did you might know one of them and um and we we would just sort of watch the we watched it on the on the on the phone there and they seemed to actually be more invested in the fact that the raven's linebacker

it was mosley who got the pick right yep that he wasn't getting down when he when he intercepted it they were just yelling get down they didn't care about the result anyway it's an how players are wired like that. It's all about like situational awareness. Yeah, both of them were like, get down, get down. Okay. They literally just,

whatever. But that was just a kind of a funny aside. Now, Pittsburgh Steelers. First of all, I saw this stat. Do you know that the first team in seven years?

This is from Alice Cazora tweeted this. The Steelers are the first team in seven years to win six in a row and not make the playoffs. Just six or no at any point in the season. Yes. Yeah. That really speaks to this team. And like how dangerous they might have been

if they had gotten in and how good they actually can be. Well, you know why they would have been dangerous? Because they don't play any crappy teams in the playoffs. There's no Raiders for them to play down to. Yeah, they have to try to stick with it. I mean, they played down to the Bengals today. They tried to lose to Jeff Driscoll. Yeah.

They tried. I mean, this is, we can talk all we want. They failed in the last few seconds of four games. and they lost to the Raiders. That's where you lose your season. Not a lot of next level analysis needed. I feel a little bit about the Steelers like I do about the Vikings. And it's not quite the same because I think that the Vikings have gone much harder

to maximize their roster this season than the Steelers did. But I also think that I wrote about this a few weeks ago, just how we're inching closer and closer to this idea of this era of the Steelers just being what might have been. I mean, it's not, Antonio Brown has never won a Super Bowl as like a regular player. It was his rookie season. He wasn't a starter.

This version of the Steelers that we've come to understand, the Rathusberger Bell Brown Steelers, I know now it's Connor and not Bell, but you get what I'm saying. This version has always fallen short. And I'm not sure if there's any reason to think they'll be in a better spot next season than they were this season. Antonio Brown looked human at times this year.

Ramon Foster is a free agent. that's the type of loss that becomes more important than it seems over time when you start losing those role players. You become less complete. And it just seems like we've seen the most complete versions of the Steelers team. And they're not in a financial position or just a roster trajectory position to get back to where they were. Not an obvious way. So do you know what Antonio Brown's cap hit was this year? No, but I can find out real fast. $7.9 million. Yeah, okay. Yeah. No, we're doing an excess here, Robert. Next year it jumps. I'm on the page, so.

Next year it jumps to 22.1.9. Yeah. That's crazy. That's a huge leap. There's one more year on Ben Rothsberger's contract. I would assume Ben Rothsberger is a bit of a Drew Brise type and that when he reaches for agency, it won't actually be for agency. But first of all, you never know. Maybe that's a natural stopping point for him. He's 36 years old. He's not, he's not on the TB12 method as far as, fitness goes. So there's that. That was well done by you. Yeah. I mean,

no, it's just an observation I've had over the years. And it's, it's, and that may not matter. I mean, there's certain, we've,

we've talked on this show before. There are a shocking amount of, of dad bods among the quarterbacks. And, and it seems to not really, uh, hurt the longevity of, of some,

of some dad bods in the league. But, I just think at some point this ends and when it does. And I think that, again, we still don't know how this generation ages. We saw Peyton Manning, who had four neck surgery. We don't know how a super healthy, you know, Tom Brady could be making the playoffs of 43, 44. We don't know how this works. And so when Rathesberger goes, it might be overnight.

Yeah. And he's a guy also that's been hurt so much over the course of his career. I mean, it's not just taking care of his body. It's just the wear and tear and the beating that he's kind of endured over 15 years of playing in the league. So it may be even more precipitous for him than it would have been for these other guys. So if you think that the offense just has reached its peak, the defense is still so many pieces away just based on how poorly they've drafted and developed defensive backs. It's the opposite of what's happened with them and wide receivers. So you have some moves you can make next year.

I mean, you can save $10 million by cutting Joe Hayden. Do you really want to cut Joe Hayden if you're the Steelers? You don't have many other solid or usable cornerbacks. So, again, it just doesn't seem like there's an obvious path for them to get back to where they want to go. It doesn't seem like there's an obvious path for them to be back on the level of a team like New Orleans or a team like the Rams even or what the chiefs are right now. It just doesn't feel like they're one or two easy moves away from. making this right again. Can I, I want to talk about

the defensive backing for a second. I used to be massively, massively into college football. And you can't really do it. You know, we, you know, both of us are on the same page here. You can't really be a massive college football fan and a pro observer,

just too much football. But Artie Burns was at Miami sort of in the era when I still watched it. If I were a GM or a scout, I would spend a lot of times reading college football message boards because I watched Artie. Burns. And the whole time, I was like, wait a second, Artie Burns isn't good.

And it was the same thing with like, that would be a dangerous road. Like Brandon Harris. You spend a lot of your time on there. Miami had a defensive back named Brandon Harris. And he was really bad. And then they, they, they, they, the Texans took him in the second round. And I was like, wait a second. I wasn't, I never posted on a message board in my life. But I would, I just feel like fan, fan sentiment needs to be monitored more. I believe that was the entire, had this idea about baseball free agents. Oh, yeah.

believe based on J.D. Drew. He's always said that. Whatever the other team's fans say is probably what you should pay most attention to. I also feel like that was the entire 2011 quarterback class. Was everyone that went to Washington, Missouri or Florida State was like, wait a second, our guy? Are you sure about this? Right. Right. You really want this guy? And it was Sam Shields was the opposite that. He played in Miami. He played for one defense back for one year. He was a receiver. And I was like, damn, Sam Shield is actually quite good. And then, you know, he didn't get after the first round, but he had the better career. So there you go.

Yeah, the triumvirate of Blaine Gabbard, Jake Locker, and Christian Ponder is a testament to this exercise. It was, I mean, yeah. But they also, Cam Newton, who's fan base appreciated him. Yeah, as they should have. He was pretty damn good in college. All right. Let's get to some stock up and some stock down.

A couple teams that really helped themselves today. And you were at one of those games where a team helped itself pretty much as well as you could. going into the playoffs. So I was at the Raiders' chiefs game today. It looked like one of those bowl games where just two teams, like one team was from the Sunbelt and one team was from the SEC or whatever.

I mean, the difference... Oh, just quality. Difference of quality. I was wondering where you were going with that. Yeah, no, just difference in like one of the first plays of the game, I looked down and Tyree Kale just had like, you know, three yards on it.

It was like, okay, well, this game's over. And the Raiders just made mistake after mistake. I mean, they have all sorts of, of guys, you know, I was talking to a few people who were on the team for the game. And they just have all these guys who started the season on the practice squad and now they're starting. I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's kind of a disaster in Oakland. But Kansas City, one of the things that was amazing to me, I saw Jeff Darlington in a locker room afterwards, and we're talking about this, because the chiefs clinched today. And we knew that and, you know,

whatever. We knew that the implication was that they lost today and the charges won that they, that they would have slipped a five, but it feels like the chiefs clinched the division like a month ago. I mean, like, the fact that it happened today and the fact they were giving out t-shirts and hat and stuff like that was sort of surprised to me. Paul Rudd was in the locker room celebrating. Wow. Nice one. So Paul Rudd is either genuinely just like a incredibly earnest Chiefs fanboy, or he's the greatest actor of all time. I think it's the former, right? So, first of all, he carries about every player on the roster, truly.

He was in locker room. And then, so he's talking to Mahomes a little bit. And he was talking to, like, Mitch Morris a little bit, a couple of the special teams guys. And then someone who's not a player came up to him and gave him a hat. And he was like, no way! Like he was 12 years old. And I was just... That makes me really happy.

It was amazing, Robert. It was amazing. It's important to me that Paul Rudd is that person. It was amazing. I actually took a photo. He took a photo of his family with Patrick Mahomes, and he was not in the photo.

And I thought that was kind of funny. I took a photo of that. I did not post it because I just don't... I'm not going to post a photo of someone else's family without there. You know, whatever. But I didn't actually talk to Paul. I'm not going to find.

and, you know, post photos of this, of his shit. Anyway, the chiefs are the number one seed. And they, if you just look at the stats over the past couple years, that is a massive, massive advantage. And that's what I wanted to see. You don't want to play three road games because of the Super Bowl. As we've talked about a million times here, no one has done it in seven years.

And, you know, if, right now they're going to, I think, I think they will win their first playoff game at Arrowhead. Whether or not they win the AFC championship, game against a Patriots team. I'm not ready to predict, but I'm confident now that they have a much better road to the playoffs than they did if they hadn't gotten the one seed. Are they the presumptive favorite in your mind in the AFC? Yes.

I think so too. So only because we know they're going to score a ton of points and they, you know, say what you will about really good defense like the Ravens, but they've beaten those teams. And, you know, the Patriots was it was a 43 to 40 shootout. that was in Foxborough. It won't be this time. And I also just have no idea what's going on with the Patriots right now. I think the Ravens is a tough game.

I think if the Ravens win that game, and they just lost to the Chargers at home. I mean, I still think the Chargers are a damn talented roster, and they literally just lost this team two weeks ago. So, or maybe three weeks ago. I'm running out of, I'm getting very confused at the end of the season here. But we just saw them lose to them,

and we just saw the Ravens take them to the brink. So I think it's tougher. Unless the Colts pull the upset, that would be the second round match. Correct. They play either the charges or the Ravens, depending on who wins that game. And I think that that's a tough game either way. But I do think right now I feel much more comfortable about them than any other team in the AFC. Because I do feel like that offense is the one thing that you can rely on.

Yeah. I also just think that when you have the one seat, all you have to do is win two home games. That's just statistically, that's why they're the favorite. I mean, obviously they can get tripped up or whatever, but it's just really statistically quite easy to win two home games. Yeah, I totally agree. All right, let's get to the other stock up. The Indianapolis Colts have won 10 games in a season where they were 1 in 5 and no one had any expectations for them to do a single thing in the second half of the season.

I think it's hard to overstate the job that Frank Reich did. I talked about him as my coach of the year. the job that Andrew Luck did coming back the season, the job they've done building that roster. I mean, what has gone on over the last two months in Indianapolis is remarkable? They're doing it. They're beating good

teams. So the Cody Kessler thing, I'm just going to have to find out in the off season what the hell is going on with that game. There must have been something we don't know about because you don't lose six-knopfrey Kessler if you're this good of a team. I think the Jags defense is good enough to throw

a wrench in a game like that. Maybe. We're I really do. We're going to talk about the Jags in a little bit here. Okay, so I mean, Andrew Luck is back. And it's funny because there's just not the talent around him. You know, there are people who pushed back on the idea that we, we did not really spread the idea that they're going to be a dynasty. That was Albert Breer, but we repeated it and people got mad at me in particular.

I don't endorse that. I'm just saying that all the pieces, I do agree that this team is only going to get better because they were not taking this year. as a serious contention year. And yet they did it because Andrew Luck is good, Frank Reich is good, T. Y. Hilton is good. They drafted extremely well.

Darius Leonard is really good. They just, they're on the upswing. And I think this is the last time in a while that they're going to have to sneak in the playoffs in week 17. Dantrell-in-min is their number two wide receiver right now? I mean, this is nuts.

To have the offense that they have with the personnel that they do is unbelievable. I mean, it just is a testament to what they've been able to do schematically. And I don't know what they're going to do this off season, but I'm fascinated by it. I've said this before and I maintain it. The guy I want on that team for the next two to three seasons to go with Ty Hilton and Andrew Luck is Golden Tate. Yep. I mean, that would be an amazing personnel.

I mean, he has not really established himself in Philadelphia. And I don't know that that might be a problem when it comes to sort of the Doug Peterson coaching tree. I don't know. Maybe they think there might be an offensive problem there. I don't know the answer. But I think that Golden Tate is still a very useful player. And then their offensive line, more or less is set. Costanto has one more year on his deal.

But we talked about the young guys. I mean, this team is so well set up for the next two or three seasons in terms of their financials. They have $150 million in space and what they've been able to do with kind of resurrecting Andrew Luck. It's a fun story. The league is better off for it. And let's be honest, it's not just the field. good story. They absolutely could beat the Texans next weekend. No doubt. You know, it's interesting to me, Warren Sharp, who I think does a really nice job, he wrote this kind of viral piece a year

ago about the Colts and their play calling and how bad it was, not predictable it was. And the gist of it was that entering the fourth quarter last year, they were up in nine games. They were leading in nine games in the fourth quarter. They went four and five, which is almost impossible. I mean, you look at some of these good teams, they're like, oh, the Patriots. Aren't the Patriots like, like, you know, 103 or something when leading after three quarters. It's something ridiculous. You know, under Ballardshire.

It's ridiculous stuff. Well, the Colts went four and five because it's not a plate call plays. This year they went seven and one in those situations. And that's because they have a good coaching staff. That's because they have a coaching staff that knows how to win games. And, you know, the one thing I always come back to, and it was one of the most illuminate things I've ever heard, is someone who told me a couple of years.

ago, the number one, the first step towards winning a Super Bowl is wanting to win a Super Bowl. And not every team does it. And the Colts look like a team that are on the path. Not the, not the Atlanta Super Bowl, not the one in four months, but the coaching staff, the infrastructure, the quarterback, they have the type of team that's going to win a Super Bowl in the, in this decade. I mean, I think that's why this is so impressive is that they didn't try to win the Super Bowl this year. They didn't spend any money in a free agency. And they'd go out and sign a couple cheap deals. You go get Ryan Grant's, you know, whatever. But it's not as if they had their big dice rolls in the spring. I think this year is when they could make a couple of those or not.

Maybe they don't need to. You figure, well, I think that they're going to spend some of that money and they should. Andrew Luck is never going to be on his rookie contract again. That's over. They have, you know, obviously you'd prefer having a quarterback who's making $6 million a year, but the next best thing is cost certainty with the really good quarterback and that's what they have. When the quarterback is making 27 million, that's easier.

It's much more palatable when you have $115 million in cap space. So when every other viable player on your team more or less is on a rookie contract. I'm going to write this this week and I, it's a thought that I, you know, through reporting that I came up with,

I had not thought about it. And if anybody is a content creator, you're not allowed to steal it because I'm not writing it to Wednesday, day. But there's a third category of of quarterback that we're not thinking about when we talk about rookie quarterbacks and then we talk about highly paid quarterbacks. But the Andrew Luck, Russell Wilson,

generation signed their contract, you know, three, three years ago, two years ago, whatever it is. And those contracts are, those contracts are already cheap, dude. Yeah. Those contracts are already cheap. You could stomach them. Even if you don't consider them cheap, they're not going to hamstring. They're not right. And then you look at, you look at some of these crazy contracts going to come up.

They're going to be well over $30 million. Cool. Russell is going to cost $24 million. Well, Wilson's contract is coming up. No, I know. But I'm just saying, I'm talking about this year. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For this season, for sure. And then here's, and one of the other things that I feel like is exciting about the Colts. This is going to seem like an odd comparison. But I look at what the Colts have done with their in-house defensive players that they've drafted over the last couple years. and I look at what a team like the 49ers have done. And the Colts defense isn't where they want it to be. But if you consider them kind of on similar timelines,

the 49ers coaching staff got there one year earlier, but think about how the highly drafted defensive players for the Colts have shown up. Darius Leonard has become the player that he is. Malik Hooker has played very well. A team like the 49ers hasn't had that. And I think that is where the Colts really start pumping up this potential of what they can be a couple seasons from now

is because the pillars of who you were and the draft capital you needed to work out has. And I think that's where your timeline starts getting accelerated. And that's exactly what's happened for that. Yeah. They're going to be good in the ASE for a long time. All right. Let's get to stock down. Let's start with a team that maybe won't be very good in the AFC for a long time.

The team that shockingly beat this Colts team a few weeks ago. The Jacksonville Jaguars are in a very bad way, my friend. I have no idea what's going on there. and this might just be a disaster. So I don't like, I don't like getting political, but do you remember a couple weeks ago when Steve Mnuchin did this thing

where he was like, I talked to the banks, everything was fine, and no one was talking about how the banks weren't fine? I got an email today. That's pretty good. That Tom Coughlin was like,

I'm mad at Leonard Fournett, or what Leonard Fornett did was an excusable? And I was like, what was Leonard Fournett doing? Like, no one's talking about, what Leonard Fournett was doing, and now we just have a problem with Leonard Fournette. So it turns out Leonard Fournette and TJ Yellden just sat on the bench the whole game. Forenett was inactive. Yelden was active. But

now we are just going to do a news cycle about Leonard Fournet. According to the Associated Press, the Jaguar so informed Fournet that they avoided the remaining guarantees on his contract because it was one game suspension. That's amazing. Remember that was the whole thing with Roquant Smith this summer? Yeah. So it will potentially... You just never assumed a team would do it. It will take potentially take $7.1 million out of his pocket, this per

pro football talk. So now we have much bigger, much bigger, I guess, drama than we anticipated. The Shad Khan announced that Coughlin, Caldwell, and Morone would return, but, you know, we've heard thoughts that maybe Jalen Ramsey

could be moved at some point. I mean, there's just a lot of, Jaylen Ramsey seems unhappy there. I don't really, there's some extension beef or something that was happening last month, the whole thing just seems to have unraveled very quickly. If you were the Jags, what would you do with Leonard Fournett if his guarantees are actually avoided? Well, here's the thing about Leonard Fournett is he's not very good. That's what I'm saying. Florio here has, they might try to trade him. Who's trading for Leonard Fornett? Yeah, exactly.

Who wants that contract? He's making $7.9 million next season, 7.4. I mean, I don't know. You can get, has he done four yards per carry yet in the season? I don't believe so because he certainly didn't do it this year. Yeah, and then he hasn't. I mean, I can get you. He's at a chill 3.3 this season. You know what?

3.7 for his career. Listen, man, I can get you. I can get you 3.7 for a lot less than $7 million. That's my guarantee to you. That pick. How many people on the street? I mean, like, you know, like street-free agents. How many guys could you sign that would give you,

they were not in the NFL right now that would give you more than 3.7 your arts per care. 30? I think a lot of guys. I think a lot of guys. 30 guys currently not in the NFL. I mean, just look at what the chiefs are doing with Damien Williams.

Who's played for every single team in the NFL, I'm pretty sure. Not good. It's really bad, man. It is very bad. And we're talking about all these issues going on with the Jaguars. And one of their top five picks, potentially not being on the team next year two years after they drafted him.

And we haven't even mentioned their quarterback situation. I wonder what the LSU message board said about Leonard Fournett. I think they probably liked Leonard Fournett. I can't know. LSU fans can chime in on this. I think they are probably in support

of Leonard Fornet going in the top five. Maybe not. But we knew that was a mistake when it happened. And now it's just, I mean, if they can get out of the guarantees, I guess that it's not quite as bad of a mistake.

But when you have to move on from top five picks, three years, three years in. No, it's still as bad a mistake because they passed on Patrick Mahomes and they passed on Deshawn Watson. That's correct. Yes.

So no matter the financial part of that, I'm going to say independent of that. I'm talking about the player that they drafted. The financial part of it is, is one thing. But this will always set them back forever and ever. I mean, take Jamal Adams. Yeah, anybody. Take Christian McCaffrey. I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen with that team next year.

Because, again, there is no. path to them being much better than they were this year unless they can drastically fix their quarterback situation. And who knows what that's going to be? I mean, is it Drew Locke? I have no idea. Is it? I don't know the answer to that.

I mean, I think it has to be. I mean, I think they, what, do you know what the draft order is? Yeah, the Cardinals are first. And then what are the, that's a whole different issue. Yeah. The Jags are picking seventh. It's a little bit, I'm looking at the 2017 draft. It would have been hard for them to draft Alvin Kamara because they had the pick

after Kamara. Let's sell. Just roll with T.J. Yeldin. Who gives his shit? They also, this is great. I mean, that was, they also just signed Chris Ivory to a huge deal. This is great, dude.

67, Alvin Kamara, 68, Dwayne Smoot. That's the Jaguars pick. 69 Cooper Cup. There you go. Yeah, this team is in a bad way, in an extremely bad way, and I don't know how it gets any better.

All right. Let's get to one more quick stock down. here. Which coach do you think is, I mean, obviously we have the coaches that are losing their jobs that we know about. Todd Bowles is gone. Dirk Cutter is very likely gone. Steve Wilkes is very likely gone. Is there a coach? I believe their cutter is officially gone. Officially gone. I believe. I mean, he's been officially gone for two years. Exactly, right? And that game was all you needed to see today. Is there a coach? I'm sorry, go ahead. Is there a coach we're not talking about that you feel like we should be or a coach that is on your

radar that is not officially candid? If you believe Mike Florio, we should be looking in Minnesota. The dirt cutter thing is interesting to me because the implication tonight was that Jason Light is staying. I don't understand that line of decision making. I don't understand firing dirt cutter, keeping Jason Light and also keeping James Winston. I don't know why you would do that. What is Jason Light done? Nothing. That they have done a very poor job building that team.

I mean, I think that the only moves you can like are Allie Marpet is a good player. Mike Evans is a good player. I don't even know if either of those are Jason Light draft picks. So Light was hired in January 2014. That's the year after Mike Evans, correct? Mike Evans is 2013 draft. Let's take a look at this. Mike Evans was 2014.

Mike Evans was his first draft pick. So Mike Evans and then they drafted Marpet in the second round in 2015. Is there anybody else in house that you like with that team? Think about some of the second round picks that team has made. Roberto Aguayo, Ronald Jones, this year. think about Vitavia in the top 10 this year. Even if he ends up being a decent player, we could talk about Darwin James forever and I'm going to.

This team has done a systematically bad job of getting good players on it. And I just don't understand why you wouldn't start over. Just start over. I don't like calling for people's jobs. People lose jobs outside of those guys. There's an entire support system of people that have to move and find new work and everything else. It has wide-ranging ramifications and it's tough.

But I also think that at a certain point, point, job performance matters and you have to be accountable for it. And I don't understand what Jason Light has done to keep his job if Dirk Cutter loses his. Yep. I mean, there's just not much to it. It's amazing. You see the report that Arizona offered Mike McCarthy basically the entire organization, including getting rid of Steve Kime if he came and he didn't want it?

Yes. What reason do we have that Mike McCarthy should be head of personnel control? Well, I mean, that's just a way to get him. Then he would, you know, Sure. And he would bring in, you know, I'd die in an Elliot Wolf or something. Is there anything that Mike McCarthy has done over the last three or four years that

would have you say, I would like to give my franchise to this man? Steve Kime has done? I think they built a really good roster a couple years ago. But I don't know, even if outside of Steve Kime, even if you think that they should move on from him, why is Mike McCarthy the person you want to bring in to be your footballs are?

Oh, no, I agree. I'm just saying that, I don't know. I'm just saying I think I would clean house there too. Yeah, I mean, that's fine. That's completely fine. I just don't understand why Michael McCarthy is the person. I think the only way you fire Steve Wilkes,

and I'm still against this, by the way, is if you're just starting over. Because you just gave Steve Khan... I can understand that. You just gave Steve Khan the opportunity to hire a coach a year ago, and he hired Steve Wilkes. I understand that. I'm with him.

you on that. I think that I, we talked about the Wilkes thing a bunch and I understand why you do it. I just don't understand how Mike McCarthy is possibly the answer. Is there, which of these jobs, which of these jobs that is may come open or whatever or if it's already open is the most attractive to you? Is it getting to work with Darnold? Is it, I mean, which of these do you think is? Well, I mean, the Brown's job, number one. The Brown's job is number one, I think, by far. The Browns are the Packers. Good Lord. I mean, no, I would say even, I, here's the thing. I remember, and this is not, this is not reported or anything like that, but I asked someone who's sort of associated with the Green Bay people, and by sort of, I mean, you know, they've,

they've worked with those folks. And I asked why there was a mass exodus of people from Green Bay to Cleveland. And, you know, guys like, you know, scouts, pro personnel guys. And they said, you know, the one thing you have to remember about Green Bay is if they do anything other than win 12 games a year, you were the guy who was there when that happened. And if you're the GM or you're the coach and they win nine games

as a disappointment. Whereas in Cleveland, if they win 10 games, 11 games, everyone there is considered a miracle worker. And if you don't, everyone says, well, it's Cleveland. They want seven games this year. It seemed like everyone there was a miracle worker. If you take the Cleveland job,

I don't think, I think, I understand that amongst football nerds like us, we think they should win 10 games, but if someone comes in and wins 10 games next year, they're going to be considered Vince Lombardi. And if someone goes in and wins 10 games with a Packers team that doesn't have a whole lot of talent on its roster as it stands, they're going to be considered an above average coach. But I understand all of that, but don't we get into just how teams have functioned and ownership and there's a reason that teams stay bad for a while? I get that, but I also think there's

a reason good teams stay good. Yeah, I mean, the Packers have, with the exception of a handful of, you know, Ray Roads, Aaron Rogers injury years, sort of Brett Farb off the rails injury type years, they've been good our entire lives. And I think there's a reason for that. And there is something enticing about turning around a franchise like the Browns, but I also think that there's a reason teams like the Browns stay mired in either mediocrity or less than that.

And I think they have never had the roster talent. They've never had the roster talent. I think the right people are in place. there to turn that around. But I also think that I would have some hesitation about getting so intrigued and enticed by that idea. Remember that Weird story that Sports Illustrated ran? It was kind of a heat check story about the Royals like five years before. They did this with the Astros too, where they were basically just like, but the Royals one in particular stands out because they were like, you know, in five years it will be a complete, I think they, the conceit was they wrote

it from the future. And they were like in five years, it's going to be everyone's I don't remember that one about the Royals. I remember about the Astros. No, no, no, they did. It was like everyone's going to, you're going to look stupid if you were one of these people making jokes about the Royals or whatever. I kind of feel that way about the Browns. I totally agree.

In five years, we're going to have to explain to people who weren't around that the Browns were like an all-time joke. So, but that's, by the way, it used to be the case with the Arizona Cardinals until Bruce Ariens came around. And I guess Ken wasn't hot. The Browns thing to me, though, and you're talking about how there's this, if you turn around the Browns,

you're a hero forever. That part of it is a little bit attractive to me. What's really attracted to me is getting to work with Baker-Mayfield every day. Well, no, but that's what makes this free. And Miles Garrett and Denzel Ward. To me, it's Baker and everything else. No, I understand that, but what I'm saying is

the reason we're only, the reason we're saying it's such an attractive job is because of the roster. Any other sort of, you know, optic stuff comes later. Yeah, I'm with you. All right. And then I, guess I guess Darnold, right?

Yeah, and that's up there, but I also think that that team is completely devoid of talent outside of Sam Darnold and Jamal Adams. So I'm not sure how I feel about that. I guess they just signed Quincy and Nunewa to an extension, which I like Quincy and Nunewa. But that team, they have a long way to go. And we'll see. I mean, Mike McAggen has to lose his job too, right? No, he's back, baby. Oh, good Lord.

Okay. I don't understand how teams do this. MacGon, Kaim, and, you know, damn Jason Light. light. Yeah, I don't get why teams do this. The dream team. Okay, two quick challenge fags very fast. I'm going to throw it on the Dallas Cowboys, which I still don't understand what they did today. What was the purpose of sitting out, Ezekiel Elliott, Tyron Smith, and not resting your starters when the game did not matter whatsoever in the second half? What is that? What is your possible reasoning?

He took a big hit. Leighton Van der Lech got hurt at one point. He says he's, he says he's okay. It doesn't matter. That's one of those things. Talk about process over results. Jesus Christ. What possible argument is there for saying it's worth having those guys out there in that moment? Jason Garrett has to have like a $10 million bonus for 10 wins or something. It's the only thing that can explain what's going on. Yeah, I don't know. It was at home, right? No. It was on the road. I didn't watch one second. Oh yeah. It was in, it was a New York, right. I forgot. Because Eli Manning took pictures with his kids on the field and everyone took to me into that. What? Paul Rudd took photos with his kids. He's not going anywhere. Paul Rudd is no longer a Chiefs fan. He's riding off into the sunset or whatever the opposite of that is that

Eli Manning just did. It was a very bad decision, very bizarre. All right. What's yours? I just think the bears are going to regret not, not letting the Vikings win. I hope not. I really hope not. I don't know how I feel about this. I like that the Bears at the last game of the weekend next weekend. I like that everything else is kind of going to be off my plate.

And I'm also not going to a game on that day, which I kind of feel like, hmm, you know, I kind of feel like those late Sunday games are just surprisingly lit every year. I hope it is.

I mean, I hope it's a fun game. I hope the Bears win. I was, I, I, yeah, if it was a 21 point game,

I'd be really enjoying it. My hope was that I was going to get to go to the Texans game and the Cowboys game next week. weekend. And they'd be on different days, but I'm not going to be able to do that. So I think my plan is that I'm going to be in Dallas for the Saturday night game. Which would be fun. Houston during the week? Houston during the week. And I think Dallas on the weekend. So I think I'll fly to Dallas on Saturday morning is my plan. That's exciting. Yeah. I've never been to a game

at Jerry World. This is my first one. I went to that weird game where the Lions should have won, if not for an if you pass interference call. Oh, yeah. That was a while ago, right? It was 20. 2015, 2014, 2014, 2015 season? I guess not. All the years going to get it for me. It was before the Deskotic game. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right. Without that, if you pass interference play, I think it was something weird where that one of the refs thought face guarding was a penalty or something. I don't remember a specific. I remember a press conference in which face guarding was discussed,

which is not a penalty at the NFL level. Yeah, it's no longer a rule. Okay. That's all we got. Essentially, next week's headline is the playoffs are fucking starting. here we go, man. This is happening. I mean, it really did sneak up on me in a very strange way.

Today was fun, though. I needed that Browns Ravens game because everything else had been kind of, you know, the people win the people were winning that we thought we were going to win. It's kind of been a bummer, especially after last year when the bills got in on that crazy play. And I thank you to the Ravens and the Browns for making it up to me. Oh, my God. This Sports Aaron graphic just went up. The most rush yards in the final seven games of the season, okay?

the Ravens are third. The other two teams are from 1973 and 1976. The Ravens are weird and I'm really enjoying it. And it's going to be very fun right for the playoffs. I'm all in, baby. Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson taking us into the future of Russian quarterbacks.

Yeah, exactly. Just like we thought at the beginning of the season, right? All right. That's all we got for today. As always, guys, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll be back on Thursday.