The Ringer NFL Show - Five Big NFL Draft Questions

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Sheil, Steven, and Diante are back to answer five of Sheil’s first-round draft questions. They start by discussing how confident they are that Cam Ward will go first in the draft, and whether the Titans will be the team to take him (03:17). Next, they break down the options for Shedeur Sanders (16:33) and Travis Hunter (40:34), and where they might go in the first round. After, they each choose the player who teams are overthinking the most (51:23) , and finally, they share their pick for which teams could blow up the draft with a trade (66:25). Hosts: Sheil Kapadia, Steven Ruiz, and Diante Lee Producer: Olivia Crerie Social: Kiera Givens Production Supervision: Conor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you hear the word Seattle Supersonics, what comes to mind? Maybe it's Sean Kemp, The Rain Man, or Gary Payton, the glove, or maybe an image of a tall and skinny 19-year-old rookie, Kevin Durand. For fans in Seattle, it's something else. It's tragedy. It's theft. An iconic team with an incredible fan base that packed its bags and shipped off for Oklahoma City. From Spotify and The Ringer, I'm Jordan Ritter-Con.

And in my podcast, Sonic Boom, I talk to players, politicians, owners, and fans about how Seattle lost the Sonics. You can listen to it on the Book of Basketball feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're a ringer NFL show. Sheel Capadia here with Stephen Ruiz and Deontay Lee. I'm calling this, let's see, the NFL has all those weird say. I'll call this Turn the Page Monday. This is when I personally turn the page on free agency and trades and all that and we start diving deep into the draft if you're thinking, Sheel, you're a little behind. I know I am. Listen, when you, when you

carve the niche for free agency, you're going to be behind on the draft. What do you want from me? So that's why I will throw questions at my friends, Deontay Lee and Stephen Ruiz. Stephen Ruiz, rocking proudly, the Maryland, Terrapins, Jersey. And we do it. Be specific. It's a Derek Queen, Jersey. Oh, it's a Derek Queen Jersey. All right, Dea, we got a needle him. Do you have an official statement on whether it was a travel or not at the end of that game against Colorado State. It definitely wasn't a travel. All the people pointing this out, they're just haters. I don't know.

I don't like people that are skeptics of highlights. Just enjoy the highlight. It was a great shot, a great play, a great game. No need to discuss it any further. Deontay, where are you at with the travel police? Not only is it not a travel, the fact that there's even enough vague lettering to lettering in the law for college basketball and what a gather step is or isn't is proof that they need to fix their gather stuff.

step rules. You can't, to me, the thing with basketball and what travel specifically is, does it look like a natural movement? Everything that Derry Queen did in the process of preparing the jump shot was a natural movement you would see at a pickup game, you would see in the NBA, you would see it at the youth level. It's not a travel. I've never seen a shot like that at the pickup level.

But no, yeah, of course. Deonti, me and him are always on the same page. Of course it's not a job. High degree of difficulty. I mean, the defense on that play going to his left. Amazing. Amazing shot. And definitely the best game, I think, of the tournament so far. Great ending there with the three.

So Ruiz can, you can, of course, read all the Ruiz. I mean, Ruiz just churning out the college hoops content on the ringer.com. Check out his winners and losers as the tournament rolls on. All right. So here's the exercise for today. We're going with the low-hanging fruit. This isn't the show where we're going to say watch out for this guard prospect in the sixth round. he's my sleeper.

No, no, no. We're not friends like that. Have you heard of the Shador Sanders guy? I'm just learning about it. Yeah. Wait, what's his name again? That Colorado, the Heisman guy. No, we are getting to the five big questions.

I have outlined five questions here for the 2025 NFL draft. So we are going to kind of dip our toe into the water. Now, there are some, you know, a lot of mystery with some of these questions so far. So I do want to hear these guys takes on what they think. So we're just going to go one. through five, offer up some takes on the big questions, get draft season rolling. And then as the weeks go on between now and the end of April, we will continue to dive deeper. All right, Deontay, sound good. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. So question number one, how confident are we

that Cam Ward is going to go number one in the draft? And I'll add a little, you know, a second part to that. How confident are we that the Tennessee Titans are going? to be the team that drafts Cam Ward. Deante, we'll start with you. You have a mock draft up on the ringer.com. You did have the Titans taking Cam Ward number one. It felt like this was a mystery, maybe, before the combine. And now as the weeks go on, it feels like people have settled in a little bit and been like, no, no, no, don't overthink it. He's going to go first overall in the draft. Where are you with this right now? If we were doing confidence meter, I'd probably set it somewhere between 80 and 85% right like and I don't know if I would have ever had the percentage that high

pre-combin I know I wouldn't have had it that high pre-combine even coming out of the combine I don't know if I would have had it that high because Tennessee's messaging at the time was a little bit more vague like hey you know we might be we're going to be open to shop in the pick we're looking at all of our options at quarterback and at that time I know that we were talking at the end of the season about Tennessee needing to go get a veteran right somebody they can trust go execute Brian Callahan's scheme just because of how disastrous to look with Will Levis and Mason Rudolph at quarterback last season. And then you get to free agency and they're making moves that offensive line.

They're making moves with the defensive front. And it just kind of becomes clear, right? If you're taking the lack of moving at quarterback to be a message for something that they're clearly scouting quarterbacks and that they might be looking at because they have control of the draft at number one overall, just getting the best young guy they can get to bring in. So, I would say, about 80 to 85% that they're taking a quarterback, that they'll be picking at number one. And I'm pretty certain if you're picking a quarterback at number one overall, it's going to be

Cam Ward in this draft. Yeah, I would think. Yeah, I'm around the same level of confidence. It just seems like a no-brainer, especially when looking at their roster. It is a roster that I think you could get by with a rookie quarterback. It's not like a Patriot situation last year where we're worried about whether it's going to totally tank his rookie season. And then like Deonti said, if there's any quarterback going first overall, and it does seem like the Titans need to pick a quarterback first overall.

Otherwise, I feel like the rest of their offseason doesn't make a lot of sense. It's got to be Cam Ward, though. Like I don't even understand the argument for any other quarterback. Shador, like when you watch his tape, he seems like a good prospect, but not one that you could really envision ever be in a top five quarterback unless, you know, things break a certain way. He lanes on the right team. But Cam Ward, he has all the tools that you want that you look for in a mock. modern top pick overall, especially at that position. He's got size.

He's got not just size, like in height, like he's got the build to kind of withstand the rigors of playing the position at the NFL level. And then the arm, the arm talent. I don't think it's like some like blue chip once in a generation arm, but compared to Shador Sanders, it kind of is. And then even when you like look beyond that, like the physical tools, just in terms of accuracy, in my opinion, I think Shadour, that's his calling card. and maybe it is his scotland card under 10 yards, but over 10 yards.

Like in that mid-range to deep area where explosive plays are made, especially at the NFL level, it's Cam Ward. And it's not even close. His accuracy percentage is 10 points higher than Shador's on those throws, according to PFF. So, yeah, it's a no-brainer for me, especially if it picks a quarterback. Yeah, I think the thing that's interesting about this quarterback class, too, is that like none of these guys are really anticipatory throwers in the way that we talk about in the NFL, right?

Like, I don't, even with Cam Ward, I think he's pretty good. good at putting the ball where it needs to be, you don't necessarily see him working early in the progression in the way that we saw, you know, some other guys in previous draft class working early in the progression to get the ball out of their hands quickly. And if we're dealing with guys that aren't necessarily anticipatory throwers, then you need to find traits, right? And then you can kind of meld their traits into being the best version of an anticipatory thrower that you can be. And to me, if that's the case, then it's, yeah, it's Cam Ward with the bullet. There's really nobody else, even in this class, who deserves to be in a conversation with

him if we're judging it by those metrics. And that's like, that's my thing, though, like the anticipatory thrower type thing, like when you're looking at 21-year-olds who aren't asked to be that type of player, like, I just don't, it just doesn't move me at all. Even if you are able to do it, if you're not able to do it, like, that's one thing that I expect to get better in the NFL with time. It just has to get better with time. Like, the more you do something, like, if you're playing a video game, the more you play

it, the easier you're going to react to stuff. And you're going to start reacting quicker and you're going to get better at the game. That's how I feel like the process. processing piece of it. And if you're looking for that in a prospect when they're not being asked to do it, I think you're going to take some swings and miss on them that you could have avoided. Per Fandul Ward is minus 750 to go first in the draft. So he is the heavy favorite right now. One thing you guys mentioned with just the other moves the Titans have made, you know, they spent first round picks on the offensive line in 23, in 24. Last off season, they signed Lloyd Cushenberry to be their

center for a pretty big contract. This offseason, they throw big money at Dan Moore to be their left tackle. They signed Kevin Sightler, which I looked at it at first. And this is a head scratching signing. He's in his mid-30s to a one-year deal. I thought it would be a contending team. But to your guy's point, all of that says to me, are they preparing to drop a rookie quarterback into this situation and say, hey, let's do what we can, even if it means

being aggressive at some of these spots to put him in position to succeed. So I think they've upgraded their offensive line. they've got Bill Callahan as their offensive line coach. And then the other thing is, it's like, if they don't draft Cam Ward, then really, what are they doing? I mean, what is their plan at quarterback? They've got Will Levis as their starter right now and Brandon Allen as their backup. And we know that Brian Callahan openly hates Will Levis.

I mean, the fact that he's still on the roster. I mean, based on the, based on what I observed last, do you do you don't disagree with That Ruiz deal? It's a little strong. It's a little strong. Strong. He dislikes? Okay. I will say, I will say a first year is highly frustrated by?

I don't know if a first year head coach would do the WTF are you doing in the first month of the season with the guy that he thinks very, very highly of that. Okay. So he hates Will Weiss's guts. I don't know. Maybe hate his strong. I think that by October he knew he needed a replacement. I will say that. The only thing I'll say is like, I know me and Shield kind of ripped Callahan for this during the season.

But I, like, as someone who had to watch the Will Levis tape every week for the quarterback rankings, I get it. I get where Callahan was coming from. Yeah. And to me, the biggest question is like, do we trust Brian Callahan with the quarterback? That's really what I think is kind of looming over all of this is because last year was such a disaster was Levis. Because the offense was just a drift for so much of the year between Levis and Rudolph. Do I trust that Brian Callahan knows? has the goods to put together a viable NFL offense as a head coach, right? That to me is just as big a

question as whether or not it's the right moves to drop Cam Ward into the system. Right, because, like, he came from the Bengals. He was the offensive coordinator. And like, the thing about the Bengals is their offense wasn't, like, well designed, especially the run game part of it. It was always just based on Joe Burrow and T. Higgins and Jamar Chase doing what they do. And he doesn't have those guys. And he needs to find his version of those guys. And I don't know if he's going to find it in this draft. And if he does go like hunting for a type of quarterback and then let's say Tennessee trades down or whatever and ends up drafting Shador, I think that would just be a huge mistake because I just don't think Shador is on that level. I think you have to convince yourself that

Shador is on that level to draft him highly. You have to kind of make that that that leap from him being this type of prospect to being this type of prospect in comparison to Joe Burrow. But I honestly don't see Callahan making that mistake. I think he was up close and personal with with Burrow and saw it. It was like, I know what this looks like, and that's not what this looks like if he watches Shador State. Yeah, it's a fair question from Deontah. I mean, not only what we observed with the Titans,

but Joe Burrow had the best year of his career, the first year that, I'm not saying it's definitely related, but I mean, you know, you can't argue that the Bengals had a drop off. It's not not related, right? Yeah, it could be. It's not not related. It could be related there. So Cam Ward, the measurables, the number 6-2-219,

began his career at Incarnate Word, then goes to Washington State, plays his last year at Miami, complete 67% of his passes, averages 9.5 yards per attempt, 39 touchdowns, and 7 interceptions. You guys were getting into a little bit just kind of the comps,

what kind of player he is. I don't know, Deonti, do you have anybody who you're like, this is sort of, he's a version of this quarterback or he's this type of quarterback. I think the tools to Ruiz's, point, I think the tools are good, not elite, probably above average when you look at it. He's an aggressive thrower. He's got some of the Jordan Love. What is ambitious, as Ruiz told us during

the season, he's got a lot of that in his game. So he's not afraid to make throws sometimes to his detriment. He's not like elite athlete, but he can make plays with his legs. He's a good athlete. So he's kind of in, yeah, he's sort of in this weird range where I've seen my friend, and Duffy said, Kyler Murray seemed like a good comp. I saw Danny Kelly for the ringer, said, Jordan Love. I saw our friend Nate Tice, said Steve McNair.

So those are some of the names I've seen thrown out. DeAte, do any of those sort of move you and you say, yeah, I could see that that being a good comp for him. I think that all of those are kind of decentish comp. It's tough sometimes with Cam Moore because you don't necessarily see flashes of high levels of athleticism. So like I understand Kyler Murray like in terms of the decision making from the pocket,

the aggression. I was thinking a lot about like early career Derek Carr in that regard, right? It was like good enough athlete, very much more ambitious as a passer. Obviously, I think just taking punishment over the years, especially towards the latter end of his time with the Raiders just kind of sapped that and now we have this version of him that doesn't want to take any chances downfield. You can maybe say what Baker became like on the second half of the season last year, where it seemed like he was really more willing to push the ball down the field and take chances without Chris Godwin. I think that all of those would be kind of fitting, right?

And I think the range of outcome for Cam Ward is really wide in that regard as well, right? Like, I think the pocket, the pocket management sometimes concerns me, but I do think that he shows enough of an understanding of how to use his feet, how to stay balanced, how to make throws from different arm slots, where if you're very, if you're very optimistic on his behalf, you're going to highlight those plays, where I might look and say, like, he kind of has some of like the Jalen Hertz object permanence issues at times where he'll make a guy miss, reset in the pocket and he doesn't feel the second wave of pressure at times because he's looking to push the ball deep down field so often in his college tape.

But I also think that like the trajectory, if you're looking at the trajectory, the same way I think that kind of existed with Jaden Daniels coming into the draft. It's been heading upward over the last few years. His second year at Washington State was much better than his first. I would say the time he spent to Miami was much better than the time he spent at Washington State. So if you want to sell yourself that like, even though he is a little bit on the older side, everything we've been seeing has been trending upwards.

I don't know if I see arm talent on the level of Jordan Love the way the Danny Kelly does, but the quarterbacks you named in terms of like their ambition as a thrower, Kyloor, Kylo Murray in that same ballpark. Obviously, I mentioned early career, Derek Carr. I think that there is a lot of that in his game. And I think that if you're team drafting at number one and you just need something solid at a quarterback, chances are even if he doesn't turn into a superstar, he can be a solid starting quarterback if he's able to harness all his traits to the best of their abilities.

It's almost getting harder to come up with comps for these quarterbacks just because I see more variety in their skill sets now. Yeah. I think like 10 years ago is probably easier. You put them in the dual threat box or you put them in the pocket passer box. And now there's a lot of gray area there. And I think Cam Ward is like almost in the middle of that gray area. It's really hard to suss out which way he's going to end up going in the NFL.

And that's why it's kind of hard to evaluate him just based on the one year of power conference football. I mean, I guess I'm disrespecting the PAC 12 right now. by saying that. Watch enough pectoral. Yeah. It's not real football. Let's face it. I don't know if the ACC is at this point.

But yeah, we have a short track record for him. It's going to be a fascinating evaluation for NFL teams. So I think where we all land is that the Titans are going to take him number one and the Titans are justified in taking him number one. Any disagreements? No. No. All right. If there was a better prospect, like a non-quarterback prospect, I would probably explore that idea if I was Tennessee.

But Abdul Carter, I don't think he doesn't move me enough to like come off the quarterback thing, especially when they have such a hole at that position. Gotcha. Okay. All right. Let's take a break. We come back where I can tell Ruizis Jones and to talk a little Shador Sanders. You know, already already got ahead of himself and name dropped them a few times. So we'll get to the Shador Sanders question and some other big questions in the 2025 NFL draft. All right. We're back on the ringer NFL show. Question number two. Where does Shador Sanders end up going? when all is said and done. So let me explain to you where I'm coming from. Again, it's sort of a casual to this point with the draft. I'm following the combine.

I see like the biggest story coming out of the combine. It felt like to me was that Chador Sanders maybe rubbed some teams the wrong way. The interviews didn't go great. All those things that we sometimes see year to year with a prospect or two prospects, that kind of thing. And I'm thinking, wait, is he really going to drop? And now we're three weeks later, and it feels like a lot of places I look are like, nope, Shador Sanders is probably going to be a top five picker.

Now, I did see a great football writer for the Ringer.com in his mock draft. He's avoiding the group think. His name is Deonté Lee. And he had Shadour Sanders falling. So we do, I like that. We do have different ranges of opinions here. But Ruiz, let's start with you because you already hit on Sanders a little bit. It seems like he may not be your favorite quarterback prospect.

What do you see? What type of player do you see? What does it look like if he succeeds? What are the chances he hits that ceiling? Just kind of your outlook on Chodor Sanders as we're about a month away from the draft. I don't think I really hate him as a prospect. I think I would take him in the first round. I just don't think I would take him in the top 10.

And I don't think he's the type of quarterback who should Gardner conversation about being, you know, the top pick in the draft. But I just see a quarterback where a lot has to go right for him to hit his ceiling at the NFL level. just doesn't it we talked about cam awards tools not being at that like blue chip level yet but i don't think shador is even close to that i think for him to be good or for him to be great at the next level i think he's basically got to be perfect in the pocket he's got to become one of the top five pocket quarterbacks in the NFL because i just don't see i don't see him making explosive plays on a consistent basis at the NFL and like you look at his tape and you look at the numbers in college Like on throws 10 yards down the field, obviously Cam Ward had better accuracy, but Chador still did fairly well in comparison to the other quarterbacks in the country.

But he averaged 3.5 seconds per throw on those. It took a lot of time for him to get those off. And you're not going to have that time in the pocket. I think he's going to be just fine doing like the short stuff. Like if he comes in and you ask him to be a point guard because he got like a star wide receiver court, he's going to be able to do that. He's going to be able to spread the ball around and get the ball out in like two and a half seconds. five yards downfield and then the receiver does the rest. If you ask him to be a playmaker in the offense at this point in his development,

I think you're going to see problems. And I think that's when you see the issues come up. You see him, the pocket movement isn't efficient, in my opinion. I think it's fine for a college prospect, but it's not efficient. It's not at the level of a blue chip prospect. And then the armed talent with pressure around him, I think, falls off a little bit. And so does the accuracy. So that's where I want to see him take the next step, not necessarily in the air.

areas that he's already strong in, but the areas where we haven't really seen him be a star yet. It's still fairly early in his development. So I'm not like writing off the fact that he can't develop that, but right now we haven't seen it. What do you think, Deontay? I think the Stephen nailed it. I think that when you look at quarterbacks that don't have elite athletic traits, the way that you survive is either by getting the ball out extremely quickly, which is really

just not a strength of his unless it's like specifically designed within the structure of the play for the ball to come out early on screens, on RPO, and. when you're getting off coverage and you're just throwing the ball underneath. He can do all those things. I'm seeing kind of know this is part of the analysis in midseason when I was looking at Shador, right, trying to see where he's changed from this year to last year to this year because I was pretty hard on him when I was working at the athletic as well in terms of just like the pocket navigation, some of the decision making, the arm talent, you know,

and his ability to control throws at every level of the field. You don't necessarily see that. And for quarterbacks in the league who don't possess that, you have to be. be masters in the pocket, right? Like, I think about year one, Bryce Young. There are a lot of traits, I think, in Chedure Sanders, who was bigger, obviously, than Bryce Young that you saw in Bryce. And the second he's dropped behind an offensive line that's not ideal in an offensive system and infrastructure that's not ideal. Now the pressure was on you as a quarterback to be able to manage pockets, know how and when to get the ball out. You have to be excellent with your arm

control to be accurate at all three levels of the field, even if things are breaking down around you. I think about Gerboro in that regard a lot. I think about the best. master Gino Smith in that regard pretty often. I don't see those players when I look at Shador Sanders. I think more like Brock Purdy to a tug of Iloa, Jalen Hurts minus the running ability, guys who do need to be very specifically manicured around. I think Kirk Cousins is a comp that I've thrown out before

with some of my colleagues, like at the absolute best for Shadour, he looks in his NFL career the way that Kirk looked in Washington with Jay Gruden as his coach. That would be a great outcome for him. I think that for me, though, when you start talking about top 10 picks, top five picks, and it's entirely possible that that's still his floor because you're looking at teams like Cleveland, you're looking at New York, you're even looking at the Jets, even though they paid Justin Fields,

and I think there's some reporting out there that Fields only went there kind of on the promise that he wouldn't be royaled in another quarterback competition right out the gate. So maybe he was promised something, whether or not that sticks when we get to late April is a whole different conversation. So it's entirely possible that those things just look around and say, what else are we going to do with the need that we have at quarterback and that he ends up getting picked in the top five or so. I just don't necessarily, I definitely don't see a top five skill set. When you start talking about ceilings, I don't know if I see a top five ceiling either.

That's why he was in the 20s to me because I do think he can be a serviceable starting quarterback with, you know, the right kind of infrastructure around him that protects him early in his career. I just don't see a high enough ceiling necessarily to justify taking him in the top 10. The Bryce Young comp is a good one to me. Like, he's like, my comp before the draft, before the Bryce on draft was he's like honey i shrunk joe burrow now this is like they sized up that shrunk in joe burrow to 16 version but he lost some of the things that you lost with joe burrow along during the process

yeah i think they did they did make the kids bigger in the sequel i think yeah i don't remember i i don't remember seeing it uh in a while but uh yeah i and i think that's kind of the issue there but it only takes one team and there are a lot of desperate teams in the nfl and they start acting crazy when it comes to a quarterback. So I mean, I could see him going as high as 10. I mean, Mack Jones went in the top 15, the top half of the draft. And I think like everything I can rip Shador about, I could do doubly for Mac Jones before his draft. I think it's telling that the people who would know what teams are thinking all seem to be in pretty much lockstep that like, he's probably still going to be a top 10 pick. Right. There must be hearing something from the teams

that are picking in the top 10 that he can still, that his range is still in there. It's just in my evaluation of them. I don't see that. And with some of the other needs, that were there when I was doing the mock draft. If it wasn't going to be at those needs, I just didn't see Ched George Sanders as a guy that would kind of paper over some of the other needs that were available for a team like Cleveland, like New York, like the Jets. So that's how he ended up dropping for me.

I think when you look at positional value, you're absolutely right, especially with the top teams. But when you look at the need to distract everyone from last year's offseason Hard Knox and Seekwon Barclay and everything associated with that, I think the Giants do have a need, a specific need for this quarterback. in particular or, you know, Aaron Rogers.

Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, let's get into it. The teams that potential, because you guys are saying top 10, I kept thinking you were going to say top three or top five, but we will see. But number two, the Cleveland Browns had the second overall pick here. If the season started on Sunday, the Browns would have Kenny Pickett as their quarterback.

Deshawn Watson and Kenny Pickett. That's the Browns quarterback. room. Now, Deshawn Watson, we don't even know, forget how terrible he was when he played. We don't even know if he's going to be available this year with the Achilles injury and the re-injury of that Achilles. So it's Kenny Pickett and no one else. And I was thinking when Deonté was saying Kurt Cousins, that I do think that if there are teams that believe he can be Kirk Cousins, then he's going high. I mean, there's just, if you can get competency, a solid starter at quarterback. It is worth a lot. It might not get you to a Super Bowl. You know, you got to have a lot

of things around you. It could get you to a Super Bowl if you build a great roster around it. But that's what made me think, you know, can they convince themselves that he can be that type of quarterback. Now, I was looking at the Brown specifically. So they've got 10 picks in this draft. So they at least have the draft capital back here. They've got two. They've got 33. They've got 67. And when we're talking about Chodor Sanderson, hey, get him in the right environment. I don't think the Browns are that anymore. We talked about the Browns a certain way when they acquired Deshaun Watson where it's like, hey, they got a nice infrastructure around the quarterback.

Go look at it now. The offensive line isn't nearly as good. Deonti, I know you mentioned that. I thought that was a great point in your mock draft that I totally agree with. It's not an elite offensive line anymore. They're starting wide receivers are Jerry Judy and Cedric Tillman. Jerome Ford is their lead back. David Njoku is their tight end.

I mean, this isn't like, to me, a situation. where you say plug in a guy and you have all the pieces around him and it's going to look really good. Deonti, are you with me on that? Like if Shador Sanders went to the Browns, I wouldn't be like, oh, you know, this is a great environment. He's going to be able to succeed right away because of the pieces around him. I'm 1,000% with you. I think that people, because not a lot of people watch the Browns on a national scale, I think that the last memory they have locked in their minds is the 2020 division around against the Chiefs.

But they look really competitive. And then Baker turns a ball over late in the game. you know, they weren't able to close the deal, you know, in spite of the fact that Patrick Mahones didn't finish that game. That's not the roster that you're looking at with the Browns anymore. The offensive line has aged. They've lost pieces that they have not replaced over the years. They have a need at left tackle.

That's the reason why, you know, I gave them Will Campbell is because they need to start backfilling some of their offensive lined up. Even if he's not your franchise left tackle, maybe you do kick him in the guard because he can't handle that. They need that type of play on the interior as well. Joel Betonio is getting older. why tellers getting older, like guys have been hurt throughout their careers, especially on the back half of this year, not just this year, but the last two years, really. And the defense is taking steps back as well, right?

Like you look at their defensive interior. That's something that they had to let go of prioritizing because of bringing in Deshawn Watson and the amount of cap space that this contract has held up. You're paying Miles Garrett a bunch of money now. So their cap situation is going to get really tenuous. And if they want to open up money, that means that a lot of their good veterans are going to be going over the next two seasons. as well, right? They are kind of locked in this purgatory roster-wise that they've cut. This is a bed that they've made for themselves, not just with the trade, not just with Deshaun Watson's contract, but just the decision-making in terms of the draft, the fact that guys like Jeremiah wasa-Coroam

have hit, you're going to start looking at your corners who I really like in Greg Newsom and Denzel Ward and start saying, hey, they're going to be on the wrong side of 28 really soon, and you've got to start being concerned about how long they're going to last. A lot of their swings just have not panned out. They have not won games. And now you're looking at the number two pick and all these needs across the roster in the trenches, perimeter talent, you mentioned wide receiver at quarterback. I don't think that there's an easy answer. There is no one pick they can make at this spot that is going to solve their issues.

I would not be surprised at all. You know, I would say if the Giants had gone out and gotten in Aaron Rogers, maybe if you're the Browns, you say, we don't need to make a pick at two at quarterback. Let's use 33 and 67 to get into the back half of round one, right? Let's dangle that. And if Shador is available after 12. 13, 14, you know, if he's there around 15 and 16, we can use those and maybe some more future draft capital to go get in to the middle of the first round and be able to go grab

them then. I do think, though, if you're the Browns, the worst of this positioning is all the Giants did was bring in James Winston on what's effectively a, you're here so that way we can cut you when a rookie quarterback wins the job type of deal, or you're going to be our backup that we hope never has to play kind of deal, right? So can we watch James for one more? Can I get one year of James? Is that too much to ask?

Can I get one 17 games? Have you not seen all the James that there is to see? I love James as much as the next guy. I love the ambition of James as much as the next guy. You could blind, start a drop back, the same way they have on the surface tablets where you only get like the first second and a half. You could look at that only and you can probably tell how James Johnson drop back is going to end.

How dare you? But no, I just think that Cleveland might be locked into a position where now you're taking a limited quarterback at the number two pick. And we haven't mentioned this. And I think that we would all kind of recognize. I don't think even with all the money that they gave Miles Garrett, I don't think Miles Garrett agrees to a deal a few weeks removed from that trade request unless he was given some assurances on what's going to happen at quarterback.

And I don't think Kenny Pickett is enough of an assurance for you to sign for $40 million for a year. No, I'd give up $40 million not to pay with him. But no, you don't, like, they can go in so many different directions with this pick. But I think the one direction they can't go in is literally quarterback. You don't bring a rookie quarterback into this mess. Like, I've never been apparent, but I would have been. imagine when you're having a baby, you don't wait until after the baby is born to build up the nursery and the room. Like, you do all that stuff before. You build the crib. You paint the

walls. You put like clouds and ducks or whatever type of shit babies like these days on the walls. And then you bring the baby into it. You don't bring it into like a rundown room and be like, hey, hey, baby, can you fix everything here for us? So like, I think they're like two years away from being two years away from drafting a quarterback. It's a mess. It's a mess. I agree. So then what do they do, though? I was going to say. So you think can he pick it is their starting quarterback?

Just who cares at this point? Like, I think Kirk is a viable quarterback for them. It's a massive. So how much does that cost is the interesting thing? How much does that cost? I mean, once the Falcons give up this act where they're going to keep him on the roster and cut him, like they have to cut him at some point. Maybe this is going to be like the biggest game of chicken we've ever seen in this league.

But they have to cut him at some point. And then I think he's going to play for the league minimum. Although, cousins seems like a guy who wants to get every dollar possible. I don't know if he's going to if that league minimum shit's going to fly with him. I mean, Shil, you're really good at kind taking the perspective of the way the team thinks. Even if that is the way that Cleveland's looking at it, you do have to fain that quarterback is a real possibility for you. Because what you probably want to do is dangle enough in front of the Giants to where they feel like, hey, whatever we have

to give up to move up a slot is worth giving it up. The issue is, and I guess maybe I shouldn't assume that Joe Shane is very good at the job going off the last off season. If you're the dry is why would you not just sit and wait? Because they're another team that has a lot of needs, right? Like, it's Shador Sanders worth giving up future draft capital just to move up one slot? Like, if you're playing out the game theory in your head, Sheal, what is it going to take for Cleveland to get what they want, in my opinion, which is to try to recoup some more mid-round draft capital by moving back from two to three? Yeah, the more I think about it. I'm, I think that is the move for Cleveland, you know, because it's, they can have options at quarterback. You know,

you have 33, you have 67. Do you like one of those next tier quarterback? Maybe you're saying these guys kind of give us as good of a chance as Chador Sanders and we can add, you know, a blue chip player with our first pick. And by the way, there's the Kurt Cousins thing still out there. So I could see Andrew Barry thinking like that. Kenny Pickett, Day 2 pick, Kurt Cousins, between those options, we'll do something at quarterback versus just let's use this on Chador's Sanders.

So I'm with you. So number three is the New York Giants. Now, the Giants are just freaking desperate. And I think if I had to pick a team today and say, where to Shador Sanders land? I think I would pick the New York Giants as of today. And I think the way you're painting this picture is absolutely right. I think it's in the Brown's best interest to make it seem like even if they have no interest in drafting Shador Sanders, that no, no, no, we are really interested. We like him a lot.

Let's make sure people know that we like him a lot. seeing that more and more in recent weeks with people like you mentioned, Deonte, who are plugged in, that no, no, no, like Chador Sanders could be an option for the Browns at number two. So they had that. They also can convince people that we have a team willing to trade up for Chedore Sanders at number two, that it's not just the Giants. I think ultimately there's a pretty good chance that you can convince Joe Shane and Brian Dave, all two guys who are on the hot seat right now who cannot go into next season.

with James Winston and Tommy DeVito as their quarterback room when they're trying to, trying to keep their jobs. I think they would potentially be a team that would trade up. If it's a game of chicken and they say, no, they're not going to take them. No one's going to trade up. We'll wait until three. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know how savvy that group is, you know, with the New York Giants. And I think they're feeling a lot of desperation right now. So I do think that's a possibility of Ruiz, that the Giants just say, all right, it's not going to take a wild amount of draft capital, we can give up something to move up one spot

and take Shador Sanders. Yeah, I think it's possible. I think if that's their gambit to save their job, I think he's just going to fail miserably. Like, if that rookie quarterback just, I wonder what the working quarterback would have to look like. Let's assume it's Shador Sanders. What would that quarterback have to look like

for Shane to save his job? Like, they would have to make the playoffs probably. It would have to be seen a rookie year, probably. You'd probably have to be CJ's rookie year. One of those top 10 quarterback rookie years, like if it's like more mediocre, I'm trying to think of like a recent quarterback who had more of a, if it's like Caleb Williams, where you look at the stats at the end of the year and you're like, oh, that's a decent first overall pick rookie year.

Then I still don't think they survive. And especially if it looks as bad on offense where the quarterback is like fighting for his life every time. But just production-wise, if you get that, I don't think it's enough. And I don't think Shador is going to give you more than that. I guess the interesting thing is that I don't think it's equal goals for both GM. and head coach. I think Joe Shane can keep his job without making the playoffs. If you go seven and 10, but your quarterback looks really good, I think Joe Shane can get another year. The issue is is for Brian Davel and you've got a rookie quarterback. You probably need to have the CJ

Stroud plus to make the playoff year to justify keeping your job. I think it all depends how he looks. Yeah, I think if he shows promise, I mean, the Giants, they showed us this offseason that they're willing to be kind of patient. You know, you had everything that happened last offseason and then the product they put on the field this season, Like there was every reason to say, let's just turn the page on Joe Shane and Brian Dable and move on. I think Mara's like, no, we are a stable, classy, you know, top-notch franchise, even though they've been one of the losingest franchises in the NFL over the last decade. Again, this isn't a short stint here, which I've mentioned 400,000 times on this podcast.

But I think they care about that, looking like a stable franchise. So I actually think, you know, there's a version of it next year where they win seven games, but you have a rookie quarterback who shows some promise and you have a couple wins in there that are exciting. And the national media is saying, hey, the Giants are actually, look at this. They got Andrew Thomas and Malik neighbors and Shador Sanders and Brian Burns and Kvon Tibado and Dexter Lawrence.

And hey, this is a better roster than people think and maybe another piece or two away. And Shador Sanders goes into his second season, they could be something in 2026. Like if those are some of the narratives that we hear, I actually think they will both last another season. if it's a dumpster fire and it's like you just kind of threw a Hail Mary to get draft a quarterback. You didn't have the pieces around him.

This team sucks again. That's the scenario where I think everybody gets fired and they move on. What about the 50th percentile outcome, which is like the more likely outcome where it's somewhere in between where it's not a total disaster? You go six and 11 quarterback has some spurts. I'm firing everybody. And maybe they have a low bar there. I mean, they did give Daniel Jones. What was it?

$40 million a year? 30 million. I don't even remember the contract. It was that bad. I mean, I could see both scenarios playing out, but I don't think Giants fans would stand for them running it back, especially after another seven win season. I do agree with you. They've shown patience, but they're starting to stack these seasons where they have to be patient. Like, coming off of last year, I don't think they can afford to only win seven games this time around, unless they do get that CJ Stroud level season from their rookie quarterback.

And if they do, then I would assume they would win more than seven games anyway. Yeah. I mean, there's something exciting about. if like this is the other thing that we always talk about where is the GM trying to save his job or is the GM trying to, you know, make the pick that is the best pick. Because if you look to next offseason and you said, hey, you got Travis Hunter and Malik neighbors and Andrew Thomas, like now of a sudden there are some pieces in place at premium positions, potentially to get a quarterback next off season and plug them in there. So I'm saying let's go on the record here where

we, how far we think Shador Sanders falls. I don't. think he makes it out of the top three. I think there will be a team, whether it's the Giants or probably the Giants or somebody else. I think he ends up going high in this draft. Deonti, you had in your mock. I like the fit. You had him at 21 to the Steelers, which got me kind of excited. Like, oh, that could be interesting. You know, that was last week. So things changed in the draft world week to week. Where are you now? Where does Shador Sanders? We can revisit this closer to the draft. Where do you have him going right now? I mean, truth be told, just like as a function of the mock draft, because I wasn't making trades, he ends up at 21.

And for being honest, so I think that, like, if he's not a giant, I would start looking at somewhere between seven and nine for one of those teams to maybe trade out for that pick. And then you get picked in the bottom, you know, at the back end of the top 10, ultimately from some team that jumps up that has a quarterback need. I would think, like, you know, even though Pittsburgh doesn't necessarily make trades up all the time, I could see, I could see a team taking a chance. making a jump, try to take a chance, or a team like a Cleveland, let's say he does get on the back half outside of the top three. And now Cleveland's looking at 33, 67 plus future draft capital and says, hey, can we jump back up? And now we can double dip in this first round, even if we're not going to be competitive in 2025. This is going to allow us to clean the slate in 26 when they can start, you know, letting go with some vets and, you know, things aren't as tough for them cap-wise financially

and we can really reset our two-deep on the depth chart. I can see something like that. happening. So I will say back in somewhere between pick seven and pick 10 in the top 10 of this draft is when Ashadour finally gets picked up. I would say no lower than seven. I think it ends up being higher than that just because of the inflation for the asking price for quarterbacks when you're drafting quarterbacks. I could see him going like top five. But I think spiritually, it's like a top seven situation. Spiritually, I love that. I see you can tell the guy's inflexing his writing muscles. That vocab is not part of my arsenal right now at this point. in the off season.

This is why Ruggies is spiritual. You have to be a little more ambitious with your word. By the way, the scenario that Deonté mentioned with the Browns could apply to the Giants potentially, too. They've got eight picks. They've got a lot of mid-round picks as well. They've got 34 overall. So if they say, no, we're not taking him at three. Let's take best player or maybe a move back.

And you get additional draft capital. He starts to slide and they say, hey, we do like him at this spot in the first round. maybe they make a move and come back in in the first round there. All right. Take a break. We come back. We got some more questions to get to. All right.

We're back on the Ringer NFL show. All right. We hit the quarterback's fun deep dive on Cam Ward and Shador Sanders. Now may be the most fun player in the draft. What is the best plan for Travis Hunter, two-way player out of Colorado? Six foot, 188, 96 catches for 1,258. yards and 15 touchdowns last season. One the Heisman, one the Blitnikov, explosive, good route runner, student of the game,

4.0 GPA. I mean, just everything, you know, it's hard to look at this and say, wait, wait, what are the holes here? Could be a shutdown corner. Could be a fantastic wide receiver. Deante, when you look at this, is it team dependent? Do you have a strong take that no, the team should start them out at corner or a team should start them out at wide receiver?

and they shouldn't mix in the other side of the ball. How do you think a team should handle this? Whatever team takes Travis Hunter in the top four of this draft? I think that like the longer I've looked at it, I was a lot more, I was much more stringent earlier in the process. Like, I should just play corner. Or if you're going to play a receiver,

just playing at receiver. I think I'm more agnostic now, the more I watch him. I'm like, he's pretty awesome at both things. If you, you know, if you can land him in a situation where early in his career, you try it out, I don't see what it could hurt, you know? like if you're in New England, you brought in Carlton Davis, you have Christian Gonzalez.

So the need at corner is not so strong, which is almost, I think, the best thing is that you have enough depth on one side or the other where it's not going to be high stress, high stakes that the guy has to land as a high level producer at either side of the ball, which opens up now, which opens up the possibility for him to do both. So I would say that he's definitely going to be a top five pick. I mean, he's too talented not to be. I have him going third. He could go as high as number two if a team. really values them that highly and they're willing to make that move with the Browns that we were talking about in the last segment. And yeah, I think I'm okay with giving him a shot at playing both sides, you know, I think that he's a willing enough tackler where you might be able

to stick him in the slot. He's not going to take on blocks the greatest because he's sub-195, right? He is going to, there's going to be a little bit of danger with that. But if you're a man-heavy team, the way that I think New England's going to be, if you're New York, who's where I have a mock to and they have enough young guys at corner where you can, you can, you lie to yourself and say that one of these guys is going to turn into the player that we drafted and they've got enough depth at wide receiver, at least they have enough bodies at wide receiver that they've drafted. They retained Darius Slateen to say, we don't need them to be our number one wide receiver. That's an ideal spot for him because now you can just find out what's his

capacity to do both. And you can use this year one kind of as you're, you know, you can kind of use this as a guinea pig season for him because the stakes will be relatively low for him to be a star in either spot and he can just be, you know, kind of a specialist in both in both, in both instances. So I don't think that there's a wrong answer. I just think that for me now, I'm kind of more just like, let him do what he wants. It'll probably work out because it's worked out everywhere else he's been so far in his football career. Is there any worry about like, especially with that position where if you get a corner who's like a top corner, you expect him to be a man-to-man corner, the type of guy that can travel around and follow a number one rod receiver and take him

out of a game. One, when you watch him, is he that type of player and does he have that type of ceiling? Two, does that make it harder? Like when you're asking him to play man coverage where he has to run, he has to follow a wide receiver all over the field, wherever they run. It's not zone where you kind of just back up to one spot and kind of just patrol that area. Does that kind of change the math? Because it is more physically straining, I would imagine, to be a man corner than it would

be to be like a zone heavy corner. If he was going to be like an outside man corner and we were saying, hey, I need you to turn into Derek Stingley, then yeah, I'd probably be a little bit more concerned. I think that for him, obviously, he's not Will Johnson in that respect, who I also had Mox as a top 10 player at Corner. I think that you can look at Will Johnson and say, you can play man. If you're not a man, when we're not a man, we can play cover three. You've got enough length.

You've got enough quick switch ability to where you can play that, play that way. I think Travis Hunter is a little bit more of kind of like your silky, smooth zone guy, jumping routes, you know, great zone feel, great eyes, can play the quarterback and receiver at the same time. And if you're in a defense out like that, New York being one of those, Shane Bowen plays a lot of zone coverage, a lot of simulated pressure as exotic looks. I think that that would be a good fit for Travis Hunter because you can build a whole package where here's where you're a blitzer. Here's where we're playing cover two with you. Here's where we're playing quarters with you.

Here's where you're in the slot. So I think you can just be, you can be modular with Travis Hunter in terms of role on both sides of the ball too. Like I think that with his ball skills on offense as well with how smooth he is. He's not necessarily the best with his releases, but he knows how to get open. you can put him in the slot on offense. You can build a lot of things that are very specific around his skill set to where it's not necessarily that you're asking him to be a prototypical X or a prototypical Z, a prototypical outside man corner or a prototypical cover three corner.

It can just be this is our offense and Travis Hunter is on the field for us. This is our defense when Travis Hunter is on the field for us. I don't know if I would have felt that way if you had asked me in November or December when I'm just kind of in the thick of watching NFL teams play a particular way and you're trying to think, how can you drop a guy into a specific scheme? I think that Travis Hunter is the kind of player that's worth exploring, you know,

breaking from whatever your typical form is to make it work around a unique talent like his. It's such a, it's such a fat. We haven't had a player. Like that we, you know, it's like Shohei Otani coming to the NFL here where it's, we're actually having this conversation.

Can he play both ways? I'll bring the nerdiness to this and talk about, you know, just in terms of, positional value if you look at it. You know, like the highest paid wide receiver in the NFL is making over 40 million per year. And there are 20 wide receivers making at least 20 million per year. If you look at cornerback, the highest paid corner is making 30 million per year. So that's 25% less than the highest paid wide receiver. And there's only seven corners making 20 million per year.

So it's it's one way to look. I'm not saying that's the exact way you should look at it. But it's one way to look at it, that sort of in terms of the surplus value you're getting from a guy on his rookie contract, he would have, you know, the 20th ranked wide receiver in the NFL is sort of equivalent to the seventh ranked corner in the NFL. So like, do you feel good about him being a top 20 wide receiver? And I look at some of these teams early in the draft that could take him. And I sort of feel like he's going to play wide receiver right away. You know, if you're the New England Patriots and you've just struck out on wide receiver over and over again, and you've got Drake May. I want to just, and like Deontes said, you sign Carlton Davis, you've got Christian

Gonzalez at Corner on defense. I just want to sort of make him a volume wide receiver on offense, see what it looks like, see how good he is, and go from there. You can make that case for the Cleveland Browns as well with the guys they have at Corner with the Giants, if you're saying, hey, let's put our quarterback in position to succeed. Again, that's pretty exciting, having Malik neighbors and Travis Hunter at wide receiver on the same offense. It's going to make things easier for your offensive line for your quarterback. So I sort of feel like he's going to come in and play wide receiver at a lot of these spots, Ruiz.

And with the Pats, like, I think one thing you have to consider is Mike Rable played both sides of the ball for the Pats for a while there. Like he didn't, he didn't have like an outsized role as a receiver or tight end, I guess, but he did catch a two point conversion against the Panthers in the Super Bowl, something that I remember very, what's the opposite of Fondley? But I think he came up in that New England system, and Belichick wasn't afraid to experiment with guys on both sides of the ball. He played Julian Edelman at a cornerback.

He played Troy Brown at quarterback. So I could see him being totally open to it. What I would do is just start, I would take the more basic approach. I would let him be a full-time corner and kind of learn that position while having a package for him as a receiver. That's easier than vice versa. Yeah, yeah. Bacon, yeah, definitely with those positions.

and then bake in some design touches with some screen passes, some tunnel screens or whatever. And then as you see him adjust to the position at the NFL level, because I think it's a totally different position at the pros compared to college, then you can kind of expand on it. I think he'll do just fine at either position, though. Yeah. I can't wait. I hope. Go ahead, Deonti.

To me, if I'm him, and this is not a problem that he's going to have to think about until 2027, but eventually we're going to hit an offseason where it's time to start talking about fifth year option. That's what I'm saying. You're going to have to deal with the team. You're going to look at you and be like, hey, buddy, you play corner, don't you? We're going to go ahead and we're going to put that fifth round option on you as a corner. And then you're going to get to the end of that rookie deal. And then it's going to be time to talk about your second contract. It's supposed to be your big money contract. And teams are going to be saying, hey, we'll negotiate with you as a corner. We're not paying you,

AJ Brown money. We're not paying you Justin Jefferson money. We're not paying you, uh, Jamar Chase money. But you can come get paid like Christian Gonzalez if you want to after he gets paid. You can get paid like Soss Gardner after he gets paid. You know, that to me, I think, is going to be a really interesting conversation, obviously down the line. But it is something that it is going to be a fascinating factor, I think, just to see from a value perspective,

when we start talking dollars and cents as he goes through his career, see how he's talked about, how he's discussed, and how he's able to negotiate with those things in mind. Because I don't think, even if he is a very valuable receiver, if he plays both ways, he's not going to get paid wide receiver won money by NFL teams, I don't think. I was going to tell Travis, under, I was going to say, like, don't play two positions and only get paid for one. Like, don't do that to yourself.

No, for a little, but as someone who's currently writing about college basketball and potting about the NFL, I feel like I'm not. No legs to stand on. I'm not even living by that. All right, I'll be his team CTC friend. Travis, we're going to play offense. We're going to play wide receiver. You can be the number three wide receiver on your team and get paid over $10 million per year. What are we talking about here?

You can extend your career. What's that? Christian Kirk money. Yeah. I mean, look at the corner, no corners, you know, our play are getting big contracts at 30 or over 30. Now it's somewhat similar at wide receiver, but not the same way. If you're still productive, you can do that. You're playing with Drake, you know, especially if it's the Patriots, hey, we got a good quarterback.

There's no one else here to catch the ball. We're going to put up numbers. You're going to be in a good spot here to build up your career. Now, he seems like he may not be. wired in that specific way, like, you know, where I'm telling he's like, calm down about team CTC. I want to play both ways. Judging by his high football character and how good he was in college. But yeah, I think that would be the financial, financially savvy move for Travis Hunter.

But I can't wait. I just hope he lands in a spot with a smart coaching staff and we get to, we get to see what they decide with him as a rookie. All right, we got two more questions here. We'll finish on. Question number four. who is the first round prospect that everyone is overthinking it with? I'm going to go first because I feel like I'm sort of, you know, I'm the coach coming to the table late and, you know,

the scouting, the staff, they've got all their opinions. And I'm coming in going, wait, what are we talking about here? And my weight, what are we talking about here guy has to be the one Deonté smartly had going high in his mock draft, which is Will Campbell, the LSU offensive tackle. 6'4-6, 319, started in the SEC as a true freshman, three-year starter. Per PFF, he did not give up a sack on a true pass set, meaning no play action, no screens, no RPO's. In his entire career, my friend, Fran Duffy from All-City said he had more true pass sets

than almost any other offensive linemen or maybe more than any other offensive linemen in this class. He's 21 years old. he's an elite athlete. Everything here says to me, especially look at some of the contracts that left tackles got this offseason, everything here says to me he should be a top five pick.

However, his arms are 32 and 5 eighth inches long. And average arm length for offensive tackles, I believe is around 34 inches. I saw this article from Evan Lazar from the Patriots website where he did the research and said there are six offensive tackles, right? now with sub-33-inch arms. Listen, I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I know, like, it matters,

leverage, length, edge rushers, all that. But I'm sorry. Like, what are we talking about here? They're one inch too short. He's played. If he hadn't played, I'd be like, okay, I understand it. It's a project. He has played in the SEC against the best pass rushers in college football and held his own for three years. It reminds me a little bit of Devante Smith. You know, in that draft, it was like, all right, I understand this. I understand it's a little bit of an outlier, but the guy has literally proven to be one of the best players at his position against the highest possible competition. I'm going to overlook the outlier. So if I were a team drafting in the top 10 or whatever and need an offensive tackle, I am perfectly fine with the guy with 32 and 5 inches arms, Will Campbell, who looks like to me, one of the better prospects in this draft.

All right, Deontay, you had him at. Number two. So I'm assuming that you agree with this. Yeah, I mean, this was simple to me. Like, I walked in with notes about everything that would have been an issue in terms of arm length. Because I wanted to make sure that I was watching through that lens, right? Because that's the way that a scout would. That's the way that a general manager or player personnel guy would, right?

Is can he perform in spite of all of these potential red flags in terms of arm length? And you see the athleticism. You see the power. You see the play strength. see how good his footwork is. You get to the combine. You see he runs a sub five, sub five second 40. You see the height. Everything that is there to balance out, you know, your checkbook in terms of positives and negative. It's all there for Will Campbell. And you look at the fact that it's not like a late breakout for him. I will be much more concerned if, oh, he got moved from guard to left

tackle and then just had a really, really good left tackle year, his draft eligible season. And now we're having a conversation of is he more of one thing than the other? This is a guy from day one since he was a freshman at LSU, has been playing tackle. We've been watching him since Jaden Daniels was there. He looked like the best tackle in football while Jaden Daniels was playing quarterback at LSU. And it continued this season with Garrett Nussmeyer at quarterback. You mentioned the pure past situations for him. I was listening to your podcast with Fran Duffy when he brought that up.

I thought that that's a really poignant point, right? Is that this is not a guy who's productive in a high RPA offense. Not that they didn't run it, but this is not somebody who was playing behind, you know, cheap offensive system or one where he's always like a backside blocker in his own scheme. And you're just watching a guy basically get some of the easier blocks in the scheme. He is pass setting, pure pass setting as a left tackle in the SEC. And some of the guys that are going to get drafted at Eddrushers that played in the SEC that went against him, he performed at a very high level against.

So you just have the pedigree is there to me. And that's why it was like, if there's a need at tackle, that's number one. We can't talk about any other tackle until that guy's off the board because it's clearly the best at the position in this class. If you want to talk about sealing and maybe Armand Mimbu because of the physical attributes, how he tested and the film, I can understand having a debate about where these guys will land by 25, 26, 27, 28 years old, right? When they get to the end of their rookie deal.

As products right now, this is still the number one tackle on the board to me. Ruiz, anything to add there? You want to give us your guy in the first round who you think people might be overthinking it about. I'll give you my guy. Like I haven't watched the Will Campbell tape, but like everything I've seen, it seems he checks all the boxes and all the people I trust seem to think he's a good football player. And I think that's what you should go with. And I'm going to keep it in the same vein.

My guy is Tyler Warren, the tight end from Penn State. I haven't broken down his tape either. But I watched a decent amount of Penn State live. And every time I watched him, he was the best player on the field. And I know people are kind of scared off. And this is why I think people are overthinking things by the age. I think he's going to be 23 by the time his rookie season starts. and people are always wary of drafting tight ends in the first round

because that track record isn't very good. Like, Brock Bowers was really kind of the first one I can really remember who was hyped up and then actually lived up to that hype in his rookie season. It usually takes a couple of years for tight ends to come on. But Warren, to me, is similar to Brock Bowers in that we saw the production at the college level where he was the best player on the offense. And there were times when they needed a bucket, so to speak, they gave the ball to Warren.

He usually came through and got whatever yarded, Penn State needed. It's not, it's not theoretical production. Like it was with Kyle Pitts, or it was with any of these like blue chip tight end prospects where you really saw the tools

and you, I mean, Pitts had the production at Florida, but he wasn't the guy at Florida. That was like more of a by committee type approach on offense. Warren, it was just like, like he, on all three levels too. Like on all three levels to,

yeah, he could make plays after the catch. He could make plays downfield on contested catches that U.S. SC game, like that one, I will never forget. Like, he just totally took over that game. He's a good football player, and I don't care about the age. I don't care about his breakout year or whatever. I know those things tend to matter over a larger sample size, but you just got to watch

him. And you're like, that dude can play football. And if he's on our team, like, that's a good thing. When I watched him so much of what I saw, I was like, this looks like healthy prime Dallas Goddard. And to me, healthy prime Dallas Goddard, maybe not a mid-first round. pick. I just think it's specifically in this draft, Tyler Warren, because there aren't a lot of offensive playmakers in this class that have that number one high volume can still produce

explosive plays types of ceilings. That's why I think it's it's right for him to be in the mid-teens, I think. And that's where I have them. I think I'm landing with Indianapolis at 14. I think that's a good landing spot for him. But yeah, I see so much of young explosive Dallas Goddard, once he has a ball in his hands. He can create after the catch. He can be powerful when he needs to be. He can be graceful when he needs to be. He has great hands. We saw it this season taking on this high target workload. I mean, so much of Penn State's offense in the red zone, in short yardage in the drop-back passing game, was Tyler Warren is number one. And then a cover Tyler Warren is number two in terms of the options and the passing progression.

That wasn't a bad option either. Right. You know, and I think that at the NFL level, what we've seen with the growth of the tight-in role within offense is I think of a trade McBride in Arizona. I think about those types of guys that can split out and play in line. Tyler Warren can be that. He can be your yak guy. He can be your guy that runs up the seam. He can work in the middle of the field.

In a couple of years, you might be able to isolate him, you know, as an ex-receiver at times and just let him kind of big body against corners because he has a great catch radius as well. There's so much that he can do at the position. What he is as a receiver is not a projection. And I think that the starting point for him as a blocker, even if it's not the most impressive that you've seen, you see enough lower body strength, you see the right kind of hand placement, you see enough effort there for him as a blocker where the starting point is good enough that you can pick this guy and you can turn him into something as an inline tight end. Maybe not in the same way when we were talking about Kyle Pitts, right, when he was a top 10 pick when he came out. That was much more of a project.

I think his baseline is a lot better than what most receiving types of tight ends are coming into the league. I do like the fit with Indianapolis. That's where Deontay has him getting mocked. Like any, just replace those Kyle Grantson targets. He was like actively sabotaging Anthony Richardson. Not that Richardson needed to help sabotaging. Tyler, Warren, 104 catches for over 1,200 yards and eight touchdowns last year. Yeah, let's get him in a fun offense with a coach who knows what he's doing.

I think he could be a very fun player right away. All right, Deontay, who do you have as your player that we might be overthinking? thinking it about in the first round. I have one on offense and one on defense. I'll start with defense, and it's Michael Williams, right? Like, I think that because he was so, and I noted this, because he was so highly touted coming out of high school, one of the top edge rushers in his class,

he was very, you know, he was very highly sought after. I think that people had an assumption that he was going to land at a place like Georgia and be the next, you know, unbelievable Georgia defender that where the production is off the charts. I just think the way that they played defense doesn't necessarily, reflect on what he can do. And then you look at the physical tools. He's only 20.

I think he's going to be 21 at the time of the draft or right around that time. So you're still talking about a guy that trajectory-wise, very young, still got his best years ahead of him, 6-5-260 with almost 34.5 inch arms. And then you see the athletic profile. You see what he is as a run defender. You see how explosive he is out of his stance. Of course, there are some projections, which is why he's not a top 10 pick to me. But I think people talk about him like he's going to be.

a Will Johnson or Germaine Johnson, you know, it's not Will Johnson, Will McDonald or Germain Johnson, these guys who are just great athletes that are really projects as pass rushers. This guy walks in with a pretty complete skill set in terms of run defense,

so being a tackle or being able to add on a first and second down basis, and he has all the physical tools to become a good pass rusher. Even if he becomes more of a pressure QB hit production type guy, then Sacks. Maybe he's not a finisher. I think that what he brings to you on early downs

will make him a high, a high value first round pick. It's why I mocked them to Atlanta. And obviously for them as a team that's in the teens that needs edge rushing help, this guy does not need to step in and be an instant, you know, dozen sat guy.

You don't need to be Will Anderson coming right into the league to be worth it. But that's somebody I have. Pegged as like an overthinking it type of player. And then on offense, and this has obviously been a subject of a lot of conversation over the last couple of months,

but be Tetero and McMillan, right? There was a lot of consternation about what the 40 time was going to be. I think they, that Dan Bruegler had him in the mid-four-fives range, which to me just checks the box in terms of what you want, a six, four, 220-pound receiver to be running. I think he's a solid enough route runner.

Obviously, the catch radius is there. He knows how to body guys up and make plays at the top of the catch point. I think that the comps to Drake London are a little misguided. I think people just see big ride receiver who can run a little bit, and you think that he's going to be elusive. If you go back and watch Drake London at USC, he was playing in the slot and making guys miss every time he got the ball. That's not necessarily T-Mex game, but just as a big body X wide receiver, which I think

we make less of, so it's harder for people to conceptualize what that looks like in terms of a first round product. He can step in immediately and add value to your offense on third downs in the red zone. He can help you move the chains. He can help you finish drives with touchdowns. That to me, I think, is worth what you're going to get out of him instantly. And the comp is T. Higgins for me, just like it is with Danny Kelly. and that's a first-round receiver.

He should have been a first-run receiver when he came on to the draft for whatever reason he wasn't. And I think, again, in a draft, that's kind of starved for perimeter playmaking talent at the wide receiver in tight-end position. It is going to be a little bit of inflation for McMillan in other draft classes.

He might not be a top-10 pick, but I had them mock to the Raiders because they need perimeter help. And a guy like that with Gino Smith, you know he's going to get a pretty healthy workload of opportunities to go beat one-on-one coverage with the quarterback like that. Yeah, I don't think you.

need to overthink 10. It's tough with these big receivers. Who was it? Was it Michael Thomas who tweeted? I think he was like LeQuon Treadwell ruined it for all of those guys. Yes. I forget when he, I forget who was sliding. I think it was D.K. Metcalf. We saw how that turned out. But yeah, he's a guy that gets open early in the down and late in the down. He can get like his, he can win on the line of scrimmage or he can win at the top of a route. And he has good hands. He can win the 50, 50 balls. He has the catch radius thing going on. Those are the receivers you don't have to overthink. Those are like, the four boxes you need to check.

Can you get off the line of scrimmage? Can you create separation at the break point of the route? And then can you catch the football? And I think he checks all three of those boxes. Yeah, we'll see. I would contest. It wasn't Laquan Tredwell who ruined it. Nikiel freaking Harry.

That was a guy who ruined it for the big body. Big body jump ball receiver types. That was just a bad pick, man. His tape was so bad. I think that might have been the T. Higgins year, if I recall correctly. I think so. That's 2019. remember right i don't know how higgins just i agree with you i don't know how higgins was wasn't a

first round pick based on his college tape below it was it was good stuff like and i'm on record saying that you can go back to the whatever year he's drafted i had him in there you go all right tet mcmillan arizona wide receiver will see if he's the second wide receiver off the board if Travis hunter is a wide receiver then the second wide receiver off the board will be uh in question there and then Mike Kell Williams, the edge defender out of Georgia. All right. Last question here. Which team is most likely to blow up the first round with a trade?

So it's a weird draft in that you say, I don't know, is this going to be a year where anybody trades up? You know, you sort of feel like I'm not sure that this is the right year for that, but you never know. Maybe we will get one. Ruiz, did you have a team outlined here that could blow up the first round? with a potential trade. I would say the Saints,

just because they've had a history of trading up in the first round for players that nobody could have seen coming. Like, we always think it's for a quarterback that ends up being like some group of five defensive end. But they seem like a team that's desperate enough and don't have enough options where this is really their only option. It feels like if you've been in an online franchise in Madden, for instance,

you don't pay attention to the cap. You just get the best players. you're kind of Mickey Loomising it year to year. But every year you get a new fresh batch of draft picks to trade and to build your roster because you have no cap space. And you just trade them all instantly. You get rid of them instantly as soon as you get them. And I think that's what the Saints kind of have to do at this point because they don't have

any other means for building up this roster. They have no cap space. And all they have is draft capital. So they have to use it. So I could definitely see them. I don't know if that means to trade up for a quarterback. I don't know if that means to trade down for more picks. But I think they're definitely going to move out of that.

spot at nine. They're unpredictable. Yeah, they can be aggressive for sure. They have the ninth overall pick, and we generally just aren't too sure what the Saints are doing. So they're always a good pick for an exercise just like this. Deontay, who do you got? I'm looking at, I don't know if this will happen, but I'm looking at the bears with

10, 39, and 41. Hmm. And I'm looking at the way that they treat a free agency where they clearly wanted their offensive line to instantly be more viable. I think that them doing that. is because they want to make 2025 as competitive as possible. I don't necessarily know what it would be for, right? Maybe a guy like Abdul Carter if he slides a little bit, right?

Because I would like to see Mason Graham maybe. Like they're trying to build up the trenches and he seems like a player. Yeah, he would help you more in the trenches than Abdul Carter. Exactly. So Carter, Graham, I could see guys like that, you know, depending on how they feel about Mike Green, who I do think is maybe the most interesting edge rusher after Abdul Carter as a guy who. can produce instantly in the league.

I just look at them at 10. They're in kind of an odd spot that could be a best player available spot for them. And if they're thinking best player available because of the way that they've built this roster, I would not be surprised at all. If we got to draft day and you're looking at, you know, maybe you're looking at the Patriots at four. Maybe you're looking at the Jaguars at five. And all of a sudden you see the team logo change and they hand it out all their top 100

draft capital to move up, you know, to be able to go pick, you know, a guy like, Mason Graham, you know, that that to me is a team that I'm looking at. I would say outside of that, the Saints would probably be the next best. Like Stephen was saying, they're unpredictable. They can be aggressive at times or you think that they need to be accumulating draft capital. And maybe they do trade back in order to do so. But I look at those two teams at 9 and 10 and wonder if that's where we see the bulk of kind of the unpredictable movement. I like that 9 and 10, the Saints and the Bears. I mentioned the Giants earlier. I'll keep coming back to them. Are they feeling the heat? Do they, you know, they've

They thought about trading up for Drake May last year. That's kind of an underrated part of that offseason hard knocks. They're very timid and like, I'm going to go walk over to the Patriots box. It's like they don't have relationships with some of these G. I don't know. The GMs I feel like I've covered. It's like you can call up another GM and, you know, try to figure it out. It felt like he needed a real plan to go there and talk to the New England Patriots at the Combines.

Social anxiety. We've all felt it before. That's true. Yeah, I can relate. Everybody's been at the party and, you know, you try to figure out how you can go talk to the girl. How do I say, how do I open this conversation? Yeah. You might not have your wingman with you to help, you know, get the conversation started.

Yeah, that's really what it felt like there. Joe Shane's son told him, just don't go get Jade and Daniels last year, you know. So they were all, you know, there was some conversation about trading up last year. The clock's ticking. We'll see if the Giants are able to make a move. Deante, when I saw you mocked Shadour Sanders to the Steelers, I kind of thought, what's the range?

Well, you know, like you mentioned, they might not be the most aggressive team in the first round, but what's the range where they would say, hey, we kind of like him. Let's see if we can go up and make a move. So that was another one. And then the third one, Raiders just are a bit of an unknown. You know, I'm not sure exactly.

Are they going to sit there and take Ashton Gentie? Are they going to take Tett McMillan, like you mentioned? Are they going to move up? Are they going to move back? Who's calling the shots? They got the new GM. They got Pete Carroll, who Pete Carroll, you know,

loves to talk about his first coaching stint with the Jets. The personnel people are making all the moves without asking him. They're getting him corners with short arms. He said, what's going on here? This has got to be different in my next stop. So Pete Carroll wants to have a say. You got Tom Brady in the mix. So there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen there where I'm not sure what situation they would go in.

So that was another sort of unpredictable team. The last one for me, and I don't know, I don't think this will happen, but this is me laying out a what if scenario. If negotiations break down with Trey Hendrickson, wouldn't the smartest thing be to trade Trey Hendrickson for a top 50 pick, a top 55 pick, and then package that up with 49 to see if you can get two swings in the first round? Or if there is a guy that you're in love with, an edge rusher, a Mike Greene, you know, a Mikel Williams, a Shamar Stewart, somebody who can play and you can develop.

as a potential star on the edge that's going to be on the cheap because you're on the rookie because they're on a rookie deal that to me will make a lot of sense that would be very sensible and we know that the bengal scouting department is very big school big production oriented you're usually not going to get that on the back you don't always get that on the back half of the first round if there's a guy you like just go take the swing i don't i don't trust them with day three picks i don't trust them with mid round picks anyway just go get the stars that's what you guys do best go find a star make your trade accumulate enough draft capital to get up higher in the first round and then go get you a star player

on the defensive side of the ball. Was that an actual complaint from Pete about his time with the Jets, the short corners? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I interviewed him. You know, you know what's funny? You know what? He was there for one year in 1994.

Do you know what cornerback they drafted in 1994? Was it Aaron Glenn? It was Aaron Glenn. Oh, was it really? He ended up being a good player. So Pete, Pete, you were wrong. You were wrong. The personnel people were right.

Yeah. There you go. They had him scouted. Wow. So that's nuts. No, I did not remember. that it was that it was uh, that it was, uh, Aaron Glenn, but I do remember him, him talking about that, uh, back in the day. So there you go. All right. I love it. A nice little draft primer for the first

round. You're, you're caught up now. Now you just wait for the first round to unfold. No, we will, we will, we will go a little deeper. We will go over other prospects. We will go over GMs with the most at stake. Maybe we'll throw a mock draft or two, uh, at you. Maybe we'll go over some props with the first round like we did during the season. We got a lot of plans for the weeks ahead. That was the start. What did I call it? Turn the page, whatever. You know, what's the thing speaking of Pete Carroll? That sounded very peak Carol-esque. Yeah. What's the thing the NFL has? When the training camps open, you know what I'm saying? I know what you're saying. In July, it never caught on. Whatever that is. That's my version of that terrible thing,

opening Saturday or whatever it was. So there you go. That's the start of our draft conversations. Thank you to Deonté Lee. Thank you to Stephen Ruiz. Thanks to Olivia Cree for filling in and producing additional production supervision by Connor Nevins in Arjuna. Ramgopal. I'm Shield Capadia. We will talk to you later this week on The Ringer NFL show.