The Ringer NFL Show - Floor, Ceiling, & Median Outcomes for the Cowboys and Raiders. Plus, Early Super Bowl Thoughts.

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

Sheil Kapadia, Diante Lee, and Steven Ruiz kick off the show by reacting to Bill Belichick's proclamation that it's time to rename the Lombardi Trophy in Tom Brady's honor (00:00). Then, the guys discuss the floor, ceiling, and median outcomes for the Cowboys next season on the heels of the Brian Schottenheimer hire (03:02). Then, they do the same for the Raiders following their decision to bring in Pete Carroll (25:22). To round out the show, they take a look at potential offseason QB moves, how the Lions will fare without Ben Johnson (51:38), rumors of Kellen Moore to New Orleans (54:24), and some early thoughts on next weekend's Super Bowl matchup between the Chiefs and Eagles (59:58). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Sheil Kapadia, Diante Lee, and Steven Ruiz Producer: Troy Farkas Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey there, humanoids. It's the Maskman David Shoemaker. It's a new era in professional wrestling, and that means a new era here at the Ringer Wrestling show. Kaz here, every Monday and Thursday hang out with me and my guys' shoes on the Masked Man show. And Ben Cruz here. Come kick it with me, Cal and Brian on Tuesdays for Ringer Wrestling worldwide, where we hit on the most interesting headlines and even react to some of Maskedmans and even your hottest takes. Don't tap out, tap in to the Ringer Wrestling show feed now on Spotify. or wherever you get your podcasts. Worldwide. Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. Shield Capadia here with Stephen Ruiz and Deontay Lee.

In a few days, we will be heading down to Nalans. That's how I say it. You're probably already annoyed by it, but I guarantee you'll be annoyed by it by this time next week. We'll be down there for Super Bowl 59 between the Chiefs and the Eagle. So today, for today's show, we're going to fire off some first impressions of that matchup, but also take a little spin around the NFL news, around the Cowboys, around the Jets,

around the Raiders, around the Saints. And we'll get to all of that today. And Ruiz, of course, the biggest story today. I know nothing about this other than kind of the 10 seconds you guys told me about before we started is that Bill Belichick thinks the Lombardi Trophy should be renamed after Tom Brady? Did I get that right?

Yeah, yeah. But I think this is just his roundabout way of saying it should be named after him. Because the argument he makes is that Brady has won like seven Lombardis or whatever and he's like it should be named after him then but then the next step is like but wait it was named after a coach it shouldn't be shouldn't it be named after a coach with a bunch of rings oh wait who's that that's me it should be named after me so yeah that's that's what i think he's getting at there that guy's not going to give tom brady extra credit than he

has to seemed a little bizarre dionte yeah it seemed a little out of character that he would make such a suggestion 1,000 percent i'm just trying to figure out exactly what the angle is here you know like maybe is this his way of trying to you know peacock in front of an X because the X has moved on and working with Pete Carroll now. You know, that is the way to try to get back in good graces because he didn't get the call from the Raiders. It's a good recruiting tool too. All of a sudden, he needs some recruiting tools.

True. Yeah. I guess if you can position it like, oh, Tom and I are still cool. See, I sent a text message to him the other day, you know, that might help a little bit in recruiting, especially if you're going after transfer quarterbacks. There you go. Although, you know, Tom did get the one without Bill. So if you're going to give it to one of them, I think, you know, Tom would have

I guess you could say Bill got him without time, but he wasn't a head coach. That doesn't count. Come on. Anyone can do that. All right. Let's get to the news. Here's the deal. We're like, we got to talk.

We're going to talk about the cowboys, not because we're trying. Oh, you got to talk about the cowboys. We don't do that, but the cowboys were in the news. But we're also like, we don't want to say the same things we've said about the cowboys for weeks, four months on this podcast. So can we come up with a little gimmick here? And Ruiz, you had the idea. Let's predict the floor, the ceiling.

and the median outcome for the Dallas Cowboys. Because again, we didn't want to have the same conversation, yet they're in the news this week. They hire Brian Schottenheimer. They introduce him. He hires Matt Eberfluse as his defensive coordinator. They extend vice president of player personnel, Will McLeigh. So again, we know the deal.

Jerry wants to be in charge. Jerry's the main attraction. Jerry wants a head coach he's comfortable with. That's why Brian Schottenheimer is the head coach. So it's like Brian Curtis says on the press box pod, like America's easiest target or America's favorite target. Like it's just like, you can beat up on one person every week and no one is going to take the other side.

So we thought that would be boring. But we also wanted to zoom out. And it's like, how dire are things? Are they that bad? You know, we can disagree with the process and some of the decision making and how they go about things. But what do we actually have with this Dallas Cowboys team as they go into the offseason with kind of this new regime? So Deont, Deont, let's start with you, whether you want to knock them all out, whether you want to

you want to give me one of them, but kind of the floor, ceiling, and median outcome for the Cowboys, knowing what we know right now on January 29. I would say, let's start with the ceiling for me. I would say that the ceiling is probably, there's probably still that they can be a double-digit win team. I don't mean like on the higher end. I don't think they could be like a 13 win team, but you can probably sit around like nine and a half, if that's set is there over under on win losses.

When you think about top end talent, they have Michael Parsons, you'll have D. Prescott. You've got C.D. Lamb. The offensive line is still pretty stable. year, even though we didn't get the run game returns, I think a lot of that has to do with who they had in the backfield as much as what they were trying to do with their players in the backfield. Ashti Jentz, he's already a cowboy, isn't he? 1,000 percent. Yeah, okay.

I mean, I don't, I think that Jerry, hopefully Jerry has learned his lesson and maybe he doesn't go to the Combine, go to the Pro Day circuit and the NFL draft and talk about how much he loves Jonathan Brooks, you know, like he did this past year. But I do think that they have enough institutionally already to be on the precipice. of nine, ten wins. They probably land around there if that doesn't get hurt. If we look at just how well and polished, they looked on both sides of the ball once Michael Parsons was back healthy on the defensive side. So I think that that's probably no matter what, you can probably hang around there. I don't know if that means that you're a true playoff contender,

but I think that they'll always be in the hunt for a playoff spot as long as Prescott is healthy. And they have the key pieces that they need in order to make those runs in a regular season. Ruiz, you agree. I got like 11, 12 wins is sort of a reasonable high-end outcome for the Cowboys. It is funny. Like every other conversation, I mean, you would think based on the conversations, and I'm part of this, so I'm not, you know, throwing stones at anybody else. But like, based on all the takes I've had about the Cowboys since over the last three months,

you would think that I think that they're like a four-win team or something. But I don't think what Deontes says there is unreasonable. No, no, I think that's like the least interesting part of it. I think the interesting part is what's the floor? Like, how low could this go? And I agree. I think it's 11 wins. I really can't see them winning 12 wins, especially with Philadelphia in that division.

And especially with how many holes they have. I know they have a lot of like big name pieces, especially with DAC and Michael Parsons, but I feel like the offensive line needs to get better and have some holes filled in there. They obviously need a run game. They had no run game last year. And Matt Iberfluse, to me, is. it's tough with him because I think he is a high floor defensive coordinator, but I think he's a low ceiling defensive coordinator.

I just don't think they'll ever get to the heights they got to under Dan Quinn with Iber Fluse there, especially with how the roster is looking out, how the secondary kind of looks. And there's been injury concerns for the last couple of years. And I don't think you could just overlook that or just assume that it's going to get better next year. So I still think 11 is probably the ceiling. Yeah, I said 12 and 5 when I wrote it down. So we're not that far off.

I just looked at it. they had three straight 12 win seasons when Dak Prescott was healthy. And let's say I worked for like a high-end PR firm, you know, whoever like Mike McCarthy has been hiring over the years. Let's say they gave me a call. I went through some training. I feel like I could give the pitch here, you know? Who is Mike McCarthy?

Did you watch that offense last year? We're all ripping it. And now all of a sudden we think their offense is definitely going to be worse. Brian Schottenheimer. Listen, Seattle, three years. You know where he finished in DVOA? Those Seahawks teams? Fifth, six.

and eighth. I'm just saying, you know, they were some, I'm not saying they were the most explosive best offenses we've ever seen. They had a high floor too. They were reasonably efficient.

You've got Dak Prescott. You've got C.D. Lamb. You do a little tweaking of the offensive line. You bring in a back, maybe at a wide receiver too. All of a sudden, you know, I think before the season, I remember we had a conversation.

I think we all did our top 10 offenses and either we had them in the top 10 or we had them like on the fringe just outside the top 10. So if you remove some of those, things from the equation there. Defensively, obviously, you've got a game wrecker in Michael Parsons. And I agree with him with Matt Eberflus.

It's not going to be a train wreck of a defense. But a year ago, we were saying this bear's defense is coming on strong. And so if you have talent, I think you can have some opportunities there. I'm not telling you I'm going to pick them to win. What do they say? Don't put that in the newspaper that Sheila Capadde said they're going to win 12 games. We'll see where we are in August. But that is sort of the high end consideration.

All right, Ruiz. So what's the median? what's like the most likely outcome that at this time next year, we're doing a season in review for the Dallas Cowboys, and this is what happened with their 2025 season? I honestly, I think it's nine games. I would pick them to win nine games right now. I agree with your spin zone on Brian Schoenheimer,

especially his time in Seattle. I thought he was one of the more underappreciated offensive coordinators just his way to shape that offense around Russ. And we got, I don't know if it was the best stretch of Russ career because you could argue like 2013 to 2015 was a little bit better. But I thought we saw Russell Wilson's peak. Like I remember there was that one year when he started off hot, MVP favorite. I think I did like a mid-season quarterback ranking and it might have had him first. I believe it's 2019. So he did have some highs, but the rest of his track record as an

offensive coordinator really concerns me. And I think he is a run first coach with personnel that doesn't necessarily lend itself to that style of offense, or this roster, especially with Dak Prescott, kind of running the show. And that's my one question is, how does it work with Dak Prescott? What does the offense look like? Does it look like a Brian Schottenheimer offense that we have seen pre-Seattle? Or does it look like the Dak Prescott offense that we've been used to watching for the last four or five years? That hasn't really changed all that much, even with Mike McCarthy taking over for Kellyn Moore. I do think Dak gives them a high, high floor, I just don't see the ceiling with this team, not with the personnel and not with the

play caller now. Or the offensive court, I don't know if he's going to be calling plays, but he's going to be home to see. Yeah, he said he's calling. He said he's keeping me at play calling duty. So he's going to be, I am interested in the style because he did say that at the press conference that we're going to run the football and play action. Those Seahawks teams, that was during the let Russ Cook era.

And he was letting Russ Cook. You know, they were thrown. And then there were when he got let go by the Seahawks, the thought was Pete Carol was like, you're letting Russ cook too much. Like, I want to get back to, so I don't know. I don't know what style of offense he wants to run there. I'm with you, though. I just feel like Dak Prescott has been in the league for a long time.

And with these veteran quarterbacks, unless it's a real difference-making offensive coordinator with a scheme that you're like, no, we can get more out of you. Most of the time it's going to turn into whatever system the quarterback wants it to be. You know, he's run high-end offensive systems before Deontes. So I would suspect that it's still going to be more the DAC, Prescott offense than the Brian Schottinheimer offense. I would think so, too.

I will say that, like, I'm a little intrigued by Clayton Adams, who was reportedly interviewing for the offense coordinator job. He was a Cardinals offensive line coach most recently. Huh. I still think, even though Brian Schottenheimer is keeping play calling duties, I think that maybe reaching in that direction, it kind of cues you into a little bit of Brian Schottinheimer's thinking, right? Of like, if this is going to be the Dak Prescott offense, let's go get another spread guy

because that's what a Clayton Adams history in the NFL is. He worked with Frank Reich when he was in Indianapolis. He's obviously been with JuPetzing in Arizona. Both of those are more spread out, shotgun-based offenses that can use multiple tight ends and they need to go spread to run, but are kind of based on that whole lecture quarterback clip philosophy, right, that we're going to give him a lot of options in the passing game. It's a Cori-O offense. Exactly.

Exactly. So that means that we can be aggressive as well. And that's something we saw with the Cardinals. Sometimes they're their own detriment over this past year. where they're always trying to push the ball vertically. But I would say when Dax at his best, those have been the attributes that we loud. Now, obviously, you can get him into trouble, right, if the turnover luck is going in the wrong direction. But we think that Dek-Prescott is the best version of himself when he's in an offense that's going to protect him and allow him to rip the ball down the field.

And I think that that kind of offensive style is what you're looking for between Brian Schottenheimer and Clayton Adams, assuming that that's actually what's at the front of mind. And this offensive line is on the younger side and needs some development. And I thought that Arizona's offensive line, at least in the first half of the season, for the issues that I thought they had on the depth chart, just looking at the names, right, on the interior. I thought they were able to run the ball pretty effectively. Obviously, I think just like the more spread out you are, the more predictable to get you in the run game. And Arizona kind of ran into trouble in the back half of the year with teams just taken away some of their pet plays, some of their pet concepts.

But I would like to see, I would like to see Dak Prescott operate in that kind of world. You might not be able to use them as a runner the way you can, Kyler Murray. But if he's there and you can go more spread RPO-ish, you know, spread quick passing game stuff, I kind of like the idea of adding that in as a layer to allow you to access some of the vertical push-to-ball downfield stuff later on. I do think that's where we could see the most improvement for the offense is that we're going to go from like traditional West Coast, Mike McCarthy quick game replacement for the run game. Like that's the extension of the run game from the passing game to like you said, more RPO based on what the numbers are in the box. and if we don't have the look, we're just going to hand the ball off and get four or five yards that way,

instead of trying to throw the perfect hitch route. And that's really what's gotten Dak into trouble when you look back at, like, the real embarrassing losses to like the 49ers. It's not him like trying to force throws downfield. Like we've seen him throw interceptions before in the past, but it's, oh, I'm going to throw a hitchh route and I'm slightly off and they pick it off. And now the ride receiver kind of gets beat on the route. Like when you go back through his playoff losses, that's always the case, him trying to fit in a short throw. it's like a low high risk low reward type pass

I think if Schottheimer can kind of strip that out of the offense and replace it with more efficient early down stuff I do think we might be able to see the best of DAC I just think like over a 17 game sample that might not necessarily lead to more wins it might lead to like hipsters that watch film being like oh this is the best DAC we've ever seen

high degree of difficulty look at all these digs he's throwing but like it doesn't lead to more wins I can see that happening totally yeah I'm with you guys. I had it at nine or ten for the median outcome. I think they'll be competing for, this is assuming that Prescott's healthy. I think they'll be competing for a playoff spot. I just think when you have a quarterback who's competent and can look much better than competent when you have a wide receiver one and when you have like one of the most disruptive

defensive players of the last 10 years or whatever it is, you're going to have a pretty high floor. I mean, I think the Will McLeigh has really sort of saved the Cowboys from a lot of embarrassing honestly, because the way they operate, they have picked a lot of good players at spots in the draft where you're, you know, you're usually not able to get a Micah Parsons where they got Michael Parsons. You're not able to get Dak Prescott where they got Dak Prescott. Even if you're not a Dak Prescott fan, I mean, go look at the list of quarterbacks who have been taken at that area of the draft. And there's, you know, yes, there's one every, whatever it is, three, four, five years. But for the most part, you're not able to hit on that. So I think he saved them by, you know, really drafting well and adding talented players. They haven't done

the stuff on the margins to elevate themselves and give them the best opportunities, but they still have some good players. All right, Ruiz, you said the most interesting conversation is the floor. So what is the floor of this Cowboys team next year? I mean, it's hard to say because this year I thought we kind of saw the floor and what did they win? Seven games and they were atrocious on defense. They lose Dak Prescott and they still managed to get there. But I think the floor is going to be dictated by Brian Schottenheimer as a head coach, and I'm not high on his ability as a head coach. And I think there are one Dak Prescott injury away from being in contention for the top pick overall next time. I do think there's a very good, there are very good pieces

on this roster, but I think it's a house of cards, a very flimsy house of cards, where if you don't have an experienced head coach who can write the ship after everything goes wrong after the first two months, that it could get ugly instead of getting better. I think an experienced head coach can turn a bad first two months into an encouraging last two months. I think a bad head coach turns a first bad two months into a terrible last two months of the season. I could see that happening in Dallas. So I'm going to say, I'll say four wins, maybe three. What is the floor if I tell you, Dak Prescott's not going to suffer a season-ending injury?

I still think six wins. Six wins. Okay. Gotcha. Deontae, what do you think? Five to six, I think, is my floor. And a lot of it, for the same reason, as Stephen said, right? I think that what we saw this year,

the fact they were able to get to seven wins is because you have Mike McCarthy and Mike Zimmer in the room. For all of my criticism of McCarthy and Zimmer, clearly these guys have been in the league forever. They know how to game plan. I can get the ball in my best wide receiver's hands. I can cut Michael Parsons loose and let him look like the best defensive player in football.

And we can probably ride that to at least be able to compete with teams, especially when the schedule kind of lightened up for them in December. I think that first year head coach, if something goes wrong, the amount of heat that would be on his shoulders. And this is a little bit more like ethereal, right? Like this is less about what we could say empirically for sure. But I just have a lot of questions about a guy who, as Jerry acknowledged,

was considered a career assistant before he was considered the Dallas Cowboys head coach, as he said. I don't know what his reaction is going to be to that kind of pressure, right? It's easy to, I think it's easy for Jerry Jones to say, I did this with Jason Garrett. It couldn't be any worse than it was with Jason Garrett. I don't know that you can just copy and paste the same kind of approach. for this, right? And then on the other side, and I don't know if this is fair to say,

I just know the defensive coordinator you hired, when things started going sideways there, everybody let go of the rope immediately. That's true. So I just have concerns about like the people in the building, if you're able to manage expectations, if you're able to manage disappointment. Stephen noted in the NFC East, right, even if the Giants may not be able to compete next season, but you know Washington already exists and they have a potential franchise quarterback. And you have arguably the best depth chart in football in your division as well in Philadelphia, there's not a lot of margin for error for you if you're Dallas. And you know you're going to have to see, you're going to play high profile games,

you know you're going to see it. You're going to get every team's best shot no matter what because you are the Cowboys. I can see it snowballing in you being a 5-1 team, a 5-and-12 team, even if things are pretty decent if we're watching the tape and we're saying like, oh, they don't have major holes in terms of play calling or scheme or anything like that. They've just got clear roster holes and they don't have a coaching staff that good enough to help them overcome it. And I do think, like, I know I put all my concern on Chottnheimer,

but I do have some concern about Iber flus and not necessarily because of, like, how he coaches defenses, but I do think, like, his reputation coming from Chicago was really damaged. And then you have these players, like, maybe I'm just putting too much on Michael Parsons being extremely online and paying attention to this stuff. No, I like that point. I could see them quitting on him if they, if things go south in the first couple of months and him having trouble kind of reeling them back in because his defense is very much based on effort.

Yes. Like if they're not getting effort, that defense does not work as it's designed. Like, Iberflees will say this on it like himself. Yeah. So that's a concern for me too. I like that's a good take. And I like, I'm not placing a value judgment on anything with Iber Fluse. Like I don't try, I try not to put value judgments on personality traits.

I just know to two Stevens point if we're talking about Trevon Diggs, Michael Parsons, some of the top end guys on this defense, they all seem to love Dan Quinn and love Mike's Those are two intense guys when it comes to teaching their defense, right? And guys who demand you to play at a certain level if you're going to be of value to them and how they want to build what they do. I don't know if we saw that from Abram Fluss's defense when things started going sideways. You know, we didn't get the best versions out of Jalen Johnson when things started going sideways. You didn't get the best version for Montes-Swed and just that defensive front in general

when things kind of started falling apart. It just comes down to managing personalities. And this is not just any other franchise. we're talking about a place that is kind of built on cult of personalities from top to bottom. Yes. I just have a lot of concern of what that pressure cooker is going to be like when Michael Parsons wants to get paid and you got to win and your quarterback has already been paid $60 million and you need to win. And your owner is always going to be on the radio locally and always going to be in front of TV screens locally talking about what's going right and what's going wrong with your team. I don't want to assume that things will go poorly for the Cowboys because for all we know, top in talent might be healthy and available.

in a way they weren't this season, and it may be just fine. I can just see the timeline where even if everybody's healthy, just they're not prepared for exactly what that moment is to compete in the NFC. That's honestly like the best point I feel like is that they do have this top-end talent. And if they are a good team, it's going to be because of this top-end talent, just having extraordinary seasons and kind of elevating the whole roster. I don't think it's going to be because of improvements to the coaching. And then that lends itself to questions about the ceiling and about what they would

do in the playoffs. And I just feel like I would not be confident in any Cowboys team that walks into the playoffs. No matter what their record looks like, no matter what the regular season looked like because of the coaching staff and like the trust they've earned or haven't earned from us. Yeah, it's hard to eat. You're right. Even if the regular season goes well with the history baked in there. And then you're seeing these now maybe they'll again, maybe they'll have great seasons next year. But I cannot really envision a scenario where we're previewing wildcard weekend and being like the Cowboys have an edge over Sean McVeigh, Vic Fangio, Kyle Shane. Packers, yeah.

Whoever you want to name in the NFC. It's hard to get there. Maybe they'll sometimes, you know, coaches prove people wrong. Maybe they'll prove people wrong. I had seven and you guys have me bumping down to five or six with you. I think you're right. The possibility of an implosion is probably a little higher than I gave it credit, you know, that I accounted for.

The Iberfluss point I love because that was a defense that had, I thought, like, top 10 talent going into the season. They underachieved. All the focus was on Caleb Williams and the game management and all that. Their defense ranked 22nd or 23rd and defensive DVOA. And that was supposed to be a defense on the rise. And when it got Rocky, it got real Rocky and fell apart in the reports of, you know, people yelling in the locker room afterwards and all that stuff. So yes, that would make me a little bit nervous that now you're in a even a more high profile position. some could say in Dallas with a star defensive player who's not afraid to speak his mind

and has many many venues through which to speak whatever he thinks about. He's a literal podcaster. He literally podcast. He has his own podcast. So, I mean, my initial point was there's 76 and 46th career with Dak Prescott as the starter, like 30 games over 500. So I'm like, if he's healthy and you got Citi and you got Parsons. But I don't know, you guys convinced me.

five or six. There you go. All right. I don't know if that was a positive. If you're a Cowboys fan, I don't know what you think about that conversation. Are you like, well, they were more positive than we are. Are you like, it started out good? And by the end, I'm back at where I started. I don't really know. What do you think the reaction would be from a Cowboys fan listening to those 20 minutes? I think with the way we ordered it, they're probably mad at us right now and they're probably cursing us and all that. But I've seen what they've been saying on Twitter and stuff. They feel the same way. Yeah, they're just as down on this higher. But my father is a Cowboys fan. and a USC fan.

I have seen him pine for a lot of coaches that we both knew. We're not the guy. I haven't gotten a single text message from home talking about how Brian Schott and I'm going to be the answer here. I don't know if there are many Cowboys fans who feel very encouraged right now. Yeah, I haven't seen that take from anyone quite on it. We went as close as anyone would even think about to going there. And even, you know, we had to give 400 caveats before we actually went back to those

Seahawks days. All right. Let's take a break. We come back. We got a bunch of other teams to talk about Raiders. Jets, the New Orleans Saints, and then some initial thoughts on the Super Bowl matchup.

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All right, we're back on the Ringer NFL show. All right. Topic number two. So Pete Carroll introduced as the Raiders head coach, Max Crosby in attendance, Marshaun Lynch in attendance there. Our question is, who is the Raiders best option at quarterback because when you look around the NFL, it's not a bunch of teams that have this big question at quarterback. It's, you know, maybe three, four, five teams where you say, all right,

what are they actually going to do this offseason? And Pete Carroll made it very clear at his opening press conference that this isn't like a three to five year rebuild. That's not why you hire Pete Carroll. So I think it's a very interesting situation. They're not drafting quite high enough where you say, all right, they get their pick of whoever they want in the draft. I think they have the number six overall pick. So that's an area where maybe those top two guys are going to be gone. Is there free agency? Is there a trade target?

What do they do? As I was prepping for this, I had a couple that I thought I got a little interested in. But Deiante, when you thought about this question, what do you think? Raiders quarterback options. What should they do? What can they do? What are they going to do? Let's start with the worst.

Let's start with the worst for me. I genuinely think the worst idea is bringing Russell Wilson. I couldn't imagine. I can't see. I don't believe that came across my timeline. Oh, I don't think that I don't, that doesn't,

that doesn't, that doesn't specify for at all. Yeah. Like, I can't see that. I can't see that Pete would, would allow that. That's,

I can't imagine that Russell Wilson was to go back to living that life either. Like, I just can't imagine that that would be good for the building or either party involved here. I don't see that. So if we're striking. him as just like a possibility altogether, I would say the next worst thing will be bringing in a guy like James Winston. Like I just don't think that you need that kind of high variance, have no idea what

version of him is showing up on Sunday type of player. I think the best version of the guy that I'm going to bring up exists in that same kind of fold as well. I just think he's a better player right now than James Winston is. I just think that you need something maybe a little bit steady or something that's not going to put you, not going to hamstring you in terms of building this offense. you need a guy who is going to be able to operate kind of rigidly within the system when you need them to. And I just think there are better options out there than a guy like Russell Wilson or someone like James Winston. Yeah, I don't think Pete would go for either of those guys. There's like the personal stuff with Russell Wilson. And with James, that's just not his type of quarterback. Like I remember

one of the reasons why Pete kind of pushed back against the letting Russ Cook thing, especially I think it was a buffalo game where he like threw a bunch of interceptions. And Pete was like, that's why we can't throw the football so much because he keeps throwing. You're going to, you know, turn the ball over that's going to set your defense back. And I just can't see him thinking that and having that mindset with Russell Wilson, who's like one of the better quarterbacks at protecting the football. Throughout the history of the league, if he thinks that about Russell Wilson, I can't imagine what his thoughts are on James Winston.

Yeah. The Russell Wilson thing, the personal stuff, I think is a big, big deal. I mean, people forget the way that ended in Seattle. It was ugly. I mean, they were, yeah, they were basically, there was the athletic story. they were trying to get Pete Carroll fired. Right. You know, but like, and I think Pete Carroll could get over that if Russell Wilson was 27 years old and could help him win.

I think if you can help Pete Carroll win, I think he can look past almost anything. But this version of Russell Wilson, I don't think that's why Pete Carroll came back into coaching. So I'm with you there again. I saw it come across my timeline. I would be shocked. That smelled to me like Russell Wilson's camp trying to be like, hey, there's, you know, interest in this guy when there might not be. I would just be shocked if that were to happen. All right.

So no on Russell Wilson. No on James, Ruiz. Where do your eyes go next? I've got a spicy one, but I'm going to save it until I hear you. I do too. And we might have the same guy. Okay.

Now that I'm thinking, honestly, the guy that I'm thinking is my answer to all three questions. Like worst case scenario, most realistic and dream scenario, at least for me, from a content perspective,

but I think it's Aaron Rogers. Oh, no, he was not mine. I wasn't thinking Aaron Rogers, but like I honestly, I'm open to this. Like, That might honestly be the best case scenario for Aaron Rogers. And I think Pete Carroll could talk himself into it.

I think Aaron Rogers would show respect to Pete Carroll and Tom Brady. Like I think he would be willing to do it, work under those guys. You're not going to find a quarterback who can protect the football, be efficient with the football on the quick game, and just have control over the offense before the snap like Aaron Rogers on the market. There's not another quarterback in the league that can do that. And I think Pete Carroll can talk himself into coaching this guy up. Like, he's just ever the optimist. I think he believes that through all things, like, through coaching, you could accomplish

anything. And I think he can make this work in his mind. And I wouldn't be surprised if it did kind of work. Like, not in a way where the Raiders are a contender or anything, but I could see it being a positive partnership, at least for a couple of months. If Aaron Rogers wants to continue to play, I don't. think what you're saying, if I had to pick in a place where I could actually see it, I think you're right probably just because of what their options are going to be, what their timeline is,

Pete Carroll, I don't know what the Tom Brady Aaron Rogers relationship is. You know, I don't know if that is what that's like. I think they're friendly. Tom Brady has always like kind of propped him up whenever he's talking about him. Yeah. All right. Deonti, what do you think? I mean, I personally, because I keep thinking about like who would want.

know you want to deal with the Aaron Rogers headache. Like so every other team I look at him like I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze right now. But to Ruiz's point, you have a coach who's seen everything who's been around and doesn't have a lot of other options. The turnover point is a huge one. You know, Aaron Rogers is not going to be someone who's going to put the ball in harm's way. Could you see it? Yeah. Yeah.

To a fault. I don't hate it. The veteran I was thinking about was actually Kirk Cousins. Okay. I could see a trade there. especially if they're able to negotiate down whatever the asking price will be or work on whatever the contract stipulations might be of who's who's going to be liable to pay for what I could see that. That to me, I think, is get you the best immediate outcome, right?

Because you're going to bring a guy in. And I think that whether it's a guy like Rogers or someone like cousins, it makes sense if you're going to anchor them to something else, right? You have to have another quarterback that they're anchored to. So that way, if it's clear that because of age, injury, whatever the case may be, that you need to make a change, you can do so. You don't want to be stuck in New York situation where it's clear that Aaron Rogers really doesn't have it or that just the environment is not conducive to winning right now. But you got to keep trotting the guy out and it just gets depressing for everybody. And the same thing happening in Atlanta.

And thankfully, you know, for all the conversations we had about Michael Pinnock's as a draft pick at the time, they had some way, they had a way to pivot when things were going sour there. I can see if you're Pete Carroll thinking, hey, I want to get, I want to get this thing turned around within two off seasons. bringing in a veteran, anchoring him either to a rookie who you can try to fast track for year two to take over as a starter or a cheap veteran that you know can maybe just do the job and get you through in order to go, you know, aggressively seek after a quarterback after you address some other roster holes. I can see that making a lot of sense. If you're John Spitech and if you are Pete Carroll and you guys are sitting trying to plan exactly what this two to three year window is going to look like. Yeah, I love the point that we will probably echo 100 times in the weeks ahead that these aren't either or situation. where it's like you bring an Aaron Rogers and then all right, well, now you're not drafting a quarterback.

No, it's like you got to, I mean, this is what they did in Seattle. Like take multiple bites at the apple and hope that one of them hits. And if someone proves that they're better than the other guy, then you play that guy. It's easier said than done. But I do think it's the right approach when you don't have another answer there. So I'm going to piss a lot of Raiders fans off. You know what this team could really use right now? Someone like Derek Carr, I'm inspiring, boring, not really, you know.

safe with the ball to a fault. Florida, sir. Exactly. You know, you can just run it off. You can just stick him in, run an offense. You know he's going to do what the player asks you to do. Even if that means that it's going to take points off the board. He is going to do everything exactly as it's designed.

That will make a lot of sense. Obviously, for a lot of reasons, Derek Carr probably doesn't want to be anywhere near the Raiders ran. And I was like the Raiders Rann wants to be anywhere near him because of how much of an underachiever he was at the N-W3 had gotten paid. But I can just see, like, making a veteran trade, like that to me would make a lot of sense for this team and a lot of sense for Pete Carroll. I think taking in a rookie quarterback and just leaning upon that as part of your rebuild strategy

probably extends the building timeline because there are just so many things that this offense needs to address before it looks viable again. Yeah, I think the bites at the Apple thing, like taking multiple bites is probably the most likely scenario, like maybe not quite the Steelers approach last year, but similar to it where we have two viable options, whether it's a rookie in a vet or two vets, makes the most sense. like ironically, the thing that kind of started the beginning of the end for Seattle and Russ wasn't it Pete Carroll going to Josh? I don't know if it was Carroll, but it was Seattle going to Josh Allen's Pro Day in 2018,

which, you know, that was Russell Wilson's peak. And apparently he got really mad about them doing that. But that's just a franchise doing their due diligence. And I think, like, Las Vegas will probably take the same approach to building their quarterback room up because they need to build it up from the ground up. Stephen, how much would it take for the Raiders to get their hands on Bryce Young? What's the draft compensation got to be? I think two day two picks would be enough.

Are we talking more 75 to 100 or more? Yeah, yeah, because I feel like honestly like two thirds would be, I don't know. It's hard to say because I feel like Carolina fell back in love with Bryce Young at the end of the year. I think that's going to be a mistake in the long run. I think he did improve and I think he showed he was a better quarterback than he had shown the previous year, but I still think there are very serious questions about his ceiling in that offense and his physical ability. So I don't know. I do think people that building like Bryce Young, though. So I think it would be hard for them to part ways with him. But I mean, if it was me,

give me a third round pick and we're in business. But the thing is, if you're the Panthers, see, I would need more than that. And it doesn't mean that I'm in love with Bryce Young. But like, to have a guy who, you know, if you think he can be like the 21st best starter in the NFL, on a rookie. Which is realistic. Like, even for me who I'm down on Bryce, like, I could see him reaching that ceiling. Yeah. Exactly.

So, and then if you're more optimistic on him, then, you know, I, you're not given, I wouldn't trade that for a third round pick. All right, here are my two juicy ones for it. Now, no one mentioned Sam Darnold real quick. No one, Sam Darnold as a raiders destination. He was one of the names of, like, highest ceiling outcome, right? If the assumption is that he can still produce at the level he did under Kevin O'Connell. Obviously, that's a long shot because you're talking about complete change in terms

the offensive system and quality of quarterback development, but that was somebody I had in mind. Now I want to go back and watch the games that Tom Brady called with all the prospective quarterbacks that they could be going after and see what he says. It's really a bad move by Fox, never having him commentated Aaron Rogers game. That would have been great TV,

and we never got one, not throughout the whole season. How did that happen? Yeah. I think Darnold is if the price is right type option. I'm not, I would not be the team giving him three years, like the Baker-Mayfield deal. No, I'm not doing that.

If he doesn't have a huge market and it's like, hey, one year, whatever it is going to be, let's see how this goes and then see it going forward. I think that could be interesting. But here are my two juicy ones for you. Okay. I'm going to throw this to Ruiz and you'll understand why in a second. I know. I know. I know who's going. Well, I have two actually. First one, you're John Schneider. Gino Smith is going into the final year of his deal on a very reasonable deal right now, by the way. But obviously, you're going to have to probably make a decision. Are you going to extend him or not? what offer would make you not hang up the phone on your old buddy Pete Carroll for Gino. Gino Smith deserves to finish his career with Pete Carroll. Come on, the guy who gave him a chance, great bond. They view the game the same way. Give him some offensive line help. I think that would be fun. Give like two to three years with Gino Smith.

You draft a quarterback somewhere along the way there and you go from there. What is the draft compensation, though, right now if you're the Seahawks for Gino Smith? I need a second and a second in the top half of the round because, one, you're getting one of the best contracts in the NFL for one year. Then you have to pay him, though. Then you have to pay him. But for that one year, and you can kind of base the negotiations around that one year, kind of use that as leverage. I think he's a good financial deal. I don't think it's going to work out if he goes to the Raiders just because of the

of that infrastructure and how much they need to build around the quarterback position. But like I would even like a late first I would even ask for. I think he's a top 10 quarterback, man. If I'm John Schneider, like in a vacuum, yes. Like if I just go in trade simulator and I drop in a two for Gino Smith is probably a pretty good value for me. If I'm John Snyder, you're sending me back to the quarterback mill if I trade away Gino Smith.

It's going to cost a two plus. Like it doesn't have to be two top 100 picks, but it's going to be a two plus because I need to have, I need to be equipped with the capital to be able to pivot and try to go get another quarterback of my own. And there's no guarantee that whatever I'm bringing in is going to keep us where we were, which is basically within a couple games of being able to be an NFC West representative in the playoffs. It doesn't necessarily make it right, right? But this is where the quarterback premium conversation has to come into play. If I'm Seattle, I don't want to trade them right now, period. if I can help it, I'd like to be able to extend this contract at a reasonable number if I can. But if I absolutely couldn't, even if the guy's expiring, it's probably going to cost me a two,

it's probably going to cost whoever team is trading for him, a two plus some like top 120, top 150 draft capital. So that way I can pivot quickly or try to go acquire something else. The Raiders have picks 68 and 73. 73 is from the Jets. Give me 68 and 73 and I'll think about it. We can talk. Yeah, we can definitely talk. of 68 and 73 is at the core of the deal. I agree that if I'm the Seahawks, I wouldn't feel that motivated to make that deal. But they're sort of in a weird spot.

Like, I don't know that they want to give Gino Smith a real extension. You know, they're a competitive team, but they haven't really like, you know, they haven't been bad enough, I guess, to really do like a full. So they've done a nice job of transitioning and staying competitive. I just don't know what direction they want to go in. If they were to see a quarterback who they liked elsewhere

and say, hey, this guy's on a rookie deal. maybe they consider it. I would call if I were the Raiders and the other team I'm calling. This is the one I was excited. See, now I get into offseason shield mode where I'm just looking at these teams going, they should do this.

Can you call the Colts and just say, are you definitely sticking with Anthony Richardson or, you know, is like, like, what, I don't know. I have no idea what the Colts think about Anthony Richardson. The way last year went was so all over the place that you could tell me that they're going to have secret conversations with people at the Combine right now. about him.

Hey, anyone interested? Don't let this get out type deal. Or you could tell me he's definitely going to be their quarterback at the start of next season. But there was some buzz in that draft that are the Seahawks a little interested in Anthony Richardson. Now, I don't know if that was Pete Carroll. I don't know if that was John Schneider or someone else. I want it for Anthony Richardson because this is the Pete Carroll superpower.

Take a guy like that who got benched, who there's questions, who this guy can't. That's the guy Pete Carroll can reach more than any. any other player in the NFL with the Raiders, that would be very, that's the one I got excited about. At least make the call. I hadn't even thought about that one, but now I'm excited. Now I wanted to. Yeah. Also, just seeing Anthony Richardson in that Raiders aesthetic as a football. Oh, that would be elite. Running all over the place. He'd have to be good, right? At that point, you put on the black and so you had to be,

I guess you could say that about all the other Raiders' footballs. I'm sure Terrell prior and Jamakis Russell looked good in it too, but. But no, but I totally agree because I think P. Carroll is a guy who seems to understand quarterbacks. Like, I know he got kind of a bad rap in Seattle with, like, how they handled Russell Wilson, especially, like, oddly enough, at the height of Russell Wilson's powers, everyone was always questioning their offensive approach. But in hindsight, he was probably the guy that knew Russell Wilson the best and like set up the offense to get the best out of Russell Wilson.

And I could see them finding a similar formula, depending on how the offensive staff kind of works itself out with Russell Wilson. I'm not going to lie. Anthony Richardson. Just like flatly, if I were Shane Steichen and Chris Ballard, I'd probably not like to have the rest of my job security anchored to Anthony Richardson after what it looked like in 2024. And if I can get out, if I can pull the rug out a year early,

rather than have my owner look at me and say, hey, man, you told me that this guy who we drafted in the top five was going to be something. And it's been three years now. And he's either still not playing. or not playing to the level of a competent, a competent quarterback while other teams are, you know, continuing to make gains in the AFC, I might be willing to entertain that. I don't know where that leaves the Colts, but at least if you made a move like that,

if you're Chris Ballard, you can kind of change the book on what's said about you, which is that you're always just so married to the picks you make, you're always going to extend the guys that you already acquired, you're never really, you're never really open to taking big swings. I wouldn't hate that if I were the Colts. If I were Shane Steichen, I might be, you know, trying to elbow my job. GM in the ribs a little bit and say that might be an opportunity for us to get a clean slate at the quarterback position. Here's a question. Would the trade package for Gino be more or less than the trade package for Anthony Richardson at this point? Great question. That's a good one. I think that

the trade package for Gino would be more. I think so too. I agree. I think I agree. Because there's just so much that's still up in the air about Richardson. You have no idea. Veteran reliable quarterbacks mostly get more than you, you know, than you think they would get. Bradford got a one, like in 2019 or whatever. Richardson's just a complete unknown. And I love,

Deonti, the point about like the job security thing, now I don't know what Ballard has had a great job security, but Stuyken, if he's feeling the heat, do they, he's like,

let's go get a veteran, let's go bring in Kirk Cousins or whoever it's going to be. What can we get for Richardson, add to the roster? They don't strike me as a team, that would be that sort of aggressive and I don't know, forward thinking is the right word, but I don't know, SpyTech. You got Ballard's number, I'm sure. Give him a call.

See what happens. All right. That was the first offseason hypothetical I got excited about. So welcome to the 2025 offseason here. All right, let's take a break. We come back. A few more questions to get to. We'll go through these a little bit quicker. All right, we're back on the Ringer NFL show. Question number three, the Jets. Same question. Jets, best option at quarterback. They hire Aaron Glenn. They bring in the new GM here. What are they going to do? I think they haven't hired an offensive coordinator yet as of this, but they're looking into Lions passing game coordinator, Tanner Engstrand.

Engstrand, okay, as their offensive coordinator, Aaron Glenn said he's not going to call play. So their defensive coordinator hire will be important as well. But their quarterback, starting quarterback is a complete unknown at this time. I'll be honest, this one was way harder for me than the Raiders. The Raiders, I'm like, all right, they could do this. They could do this. I don't know what the Jets should do.

I don't know what the Jets will do. I don't know what the Jets can do. De Yante, when you looked at this question, was there a name that came to mind where you said, all right, I could see the Jets going in this direction. Honestly, a lot of the names for the Raiders, I think, apply for the Jets to me. I think that just, the way I wanted to just kick off this conversation is just who it can't be. It can't be Rogers again. As long as clear that it can't be Rogers again, like you need to flush whatever that was, let, you know, walk, you know, you guys part ways with Devonthe Adams and you start clean on the offensive end.

Like, I don't think that you can bring any part of that core, you know, those veteran guys back offensively because they just clearly, it sucks so much air out of the building for them. And if Aaron Glenn is the guy that I think he is, and obviously I think we all believe him to be that hold everybody accountable, you've got to work. work a certain kind of way. We expect you to be a certain level of invested in the team. Not that Aaron Rogers doesn't want to win. It's just going to be on Aaron Rogers' terms. And if I'm a new head coach, I'm not signing up to go someplace where I'm going to be on the 40-year-old's terms.

It's going to be my show. So you probably got to let them go. I think that the best option probably would be, funnily enough, a Gino Smith there, right? You've already got a young receiver that you can kind of lean upon. Obviously, I don't think that that's going to happen. I would say, though, that it can't be Aaron Rogers

And if I'm a team like them, for all the conversations we just had about Anthony Richardson, it also can't be a guy like that there. You need something that's a little bit more dependable and steadfast, I think, if you're Aaron Glenn on the offensive side of the ball. What about the other former Jets? It can't happen. We need to choose for right. It can't be Donald.

It can't be Gino. But, but, listen, they would at least be a conversation in where is it, Florham Park, where you say the Vikings won this year, a lot of games with a great defense and an offensive. as we went over after the season, it wasn't a top five, six, eight offense. It was the 14th ranked offense in DVOA. Now, they had a better infrastructure. I'm not telling you that the Jets would be exactly the same.

But I think the Jets defense has a chance to make a real bounce back next year with the talent they have. Is there a scenario where, again, Darnold doesn't have a great market? Now all of a sudden he's shopping for a one-year deal. Like, do you even have that conversation? It was just like, no, that can't have? It isn't you regime.

I mean, a feel good story? No? Ruiz. I'm trying to imagine Sam Darno back in MetLife, man. Like, I just don't think that that's a healthy environment for anybody there. Maybe the teenager who's running the team now doesn't remember the Sam Darnold or Gino Smith era and is like brand new to him. I don't know.

I feel like the best case scenario or maybe, I don't know if it's the best case scenario. It's kind of hard using that word with this guy. But I think Kirk Cousins is an option there. Like before he signed with Minnesota, the Jets for one of the. of the finalists there, one of the teams that were rumored to really be in on them. I could see that being the case, especially if you see an offense similar to the one in Detroit where we're going under center, we're doing the play action thing. It worked with the quarterback who moves just as much as Kirk Cousins does.

So I don't see the mobility aspect of it all being too much of a factor, even though I think it should be. And then also Derek Carr, I think, is a guy who is young enough, has enough success. If you look back at his like, even the last. couple of years, his numbers are good. Like, we've all seen it and we know what's going on there, but his numbers are good. So you can convince yourself that he's been a productive quarterback. He has like a high PFF grade. I'm pretty sure if you looked up his PFF grade over the last three years, he's probably better than Mahomes. I would say that. Well, yeah, I'm not going to, yeah.

So, I'm just saying, I think. Entertain that fan. No, obviously, yeah. I mean, yeah, but I think you could talk yourself into him being a quarterback that not only, like, is a good bridge quarterback, but a quarterback that might be able to get you to the playoffs, just based on the numbers alone. Do not put it in the paper that I'm complimenting their car. This is not a name that I think any particular team will be seeking out. I'm talking strictly from the players' perspective. If I'm Justin Fields, New York's where I want to go.

Even if it means I'm taking on a backup role, I think that if John Morton, knowing John Morton's experience, obviously he's touched, he has kind of had his hands in a bunch of different offensive schemes, I think that being there, they've already got a dynamic backfield when things are, you know, when those guys are healthy and at their best. I think if I'm Justin Fields, I want to go to a place like that, be a backup.

Maybe if they go draft a rookie, I might end up starting out for the year. And I think that you want to be with the guy like Aaron Glenn, just like we talked about with Pete Carroll, I think that there's a good mesh personality-wise there for Fields showing, him showing that he can mature a whole lot as a decision-maker, as a passer, dealing with the changing in roles when Russell Wilson was healthy and took over with Mike Tomlin. If I'm him, I want to go to a place like that. They've got to go to receiver that I can get the ball too quickly. And that's what Garrett Wilson does best anyways, is work underneath.

Not that I think that he would be a starter and that the Jets would be 10 and 7 or 9 and 8 as a result. I just think for a younger guy that would be available that you would not have to depart with a bunch of capital with to bring in. He's probably going to be one of the last guys at the dance, no matter what, in the quarterback, RSO this year. I will go to a place like that on a one-year deal and see if I can get another shot to do what I did in Pittsburgh and maybe not have as much of an obstacle in the way of me starting and finishing the year if they do name me the starter. Okay. Yeah, I think fields and I think the Jets are definitely a team like we talked about before where they need multiple swings here. I don't think there's going to be one answer that they're

going to be like, this is the, you know, this is our guy. So I think it could be cousins and someone else. It could be Fields and someone else. I think they know that it's not going to be a quick turnaround. Although, again, I think you're right. There is a scenario where they're competitive and competing for a playoff spot next year. I don't think that's crazy. I think there's sort of enough there and you're going to have a new energy with Aaron Glenn. But in terms of sustained success, it's going to take longer and they're going to have to figure that out.

You touched on it there, Deonté, with John Morton going to Detroit, right? John Morton's going to Detroit. Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah. But I understand what you were saying with the Jets thing. But John Morton's going to Detroit from Denver. So he's replacing Ben Johnson as the Lions offensive coordinator.

Lions also lose Aaron Glenn. They're promoting linebackers, coach Kelvin Shepard to defensive coordinator. They hold on to offensive line coach Hank Frailey, who was interviewing. I'm in my head spinning with all this stuff. Who was interviewing for the Seahawks offensive coordinator, position. But the main question here, Ruiz, is if you're a Lions fan, how nervous are you about what 2025 looks like with a different coaching staff? I think you have to be worried about losing Ben Johnson just because of how much we've talked about him and how much we've celebrated him.

And I think he's a good coach. I do think there's a very good chance, though, in October, we're looking back, or we're looking at the Lions and we're saying, man, they miss Aaron and Glenn way more than they miss Ben Johnson. Just because I think Dan Campbell has had his hands on that offense from the very beginning since he's gone to Detroit, you're bringing in John Morton, who has ties to the Sean Payton offense, which is basically kind of what you were running already. So I think there's more, there might be more continuity with the offense going forward, and I think like those pieces are going to be in place.

You still have the offensive line. You still have a quarterback who we know can run the system. You still have Jamir Gibbs who could be on, he could have like a. Sequin Barclay type season next year with more of a workload. So I think there's a chance that they replicate the offensive results, even if it's a little bit worse, whereas the defense totally, not totally falls off, but falls off a cliff from where it was because Aaron Glenn was pulling off some minor miracles at the end there, keeping that defensive float after all those injuries.

Yeah, they finished the season sixth and defensive DVOA with what I have to imagine was the most injured defense in the entire NFL. So it's going to be, you never know. I remember when they promoted Ben Johnson. I was like, who is Ben Johnson? You know, like, who is this? I think we might have even had a podcast, Ruiz about it, where we're like, Ben Johnson, who is this guy?

Oh, what are they going to do? And now here we are years later. Like, man, he was, you know, one of the best play callers and schemers in the NFL. So it's hard to know this is a big part of a head coach's job, especially when you're not the play caller is like have ideas because if that guy has success, he's out of there and you need a replacement. So he goes outside the building, which that's also a thing. Like now there are coaches inside the building going like, what?

None of us were good enough to be promoted to offensive coordinator. We wanted a shot. So there's a lot of things now that the Lions have to deal with after the last two years where it was just feel good. Everyone, you know, loving what was happening until those playoff losses, it's going to get a little trickier. So it'll be interesting to see how they navigate that. All right. Last two, we're going to get to here. Kellyn Moore, it looks like, is going to be the leading candidate for the New Orleans Saints job.

Saints Brass, I believe. flew to Philadelphia, had a long interview with him on, I don't know, Monday or Tuesday of this week. Deante, if you're a Saints fan, how do you feel about your team potentially hiring Kellan Moore as its head coach? I think you're bummed out, not because of Kellyn Moore. And I want to say, like, it's not because of Kellan Moore, even though I have a lot of questions about him as an offensive play caller, I think that, I think that of the people who have worked with Dak Prescott, he has probably gotten to ride the good vibes of having coach Jack Prescott, maybe more than any of the other offensive play callers.

But I think you're more bummed out because this cycle kind of proved, I think, what we were talking about when they moved on from Dennis Allen in the first place, which is it, if you're a young prospective head coach and you have any other options available, why would you go to the team that already has like $40 million in dead cap before you even get to the offseason? That doesn't make any sense. Why would you go to that has an aging veteran quarterback that is clearly all? already peaked in his best days are behind him. And he's not even like in his mid-30s yet.

To me, there just wasn't much reason I think for this team to be a draw. I'm not surprised to see that they're kind of the last one making a head coaching higher. I think Kellen Moore can be successful there, right? Like if everybody's healthy, I can see that Eric McCoy being back, the offensive line being stable, and having Rashid and Chris Olivae healthy, I can see the offense getting a little bit closer to even though it's never going to be at the heights of what it was in the first two weeks of the season, just being something that looks more in the above-a-average-ish range in DVOA and EPA and success rate because of what Moore does at his best with Linen on the

run game to try to set up these play action passes and trying to be a little bit more designer in the drop-back passing game. I can see that working. I just think if you're in New Orleans, this was going to be a rough cycle no matter what. It was proven to be a rough cycle. You're going to be behind the eight ball in terms of filling out the rest of that staff, which to me is a bigger concern. right? If you're Kellyn Moore in your first head coaching gig, you're not going to be picking from,

you're not picking the best apples off the tree in terms of offensive and defensive minds to kind of surround yourself with. And you've already got an incumbent GM who clearly just kind of gets to run his own show. There are just so many reasons why it would be bad. I would just be bummed out if I'm a Saints fan because it's hard to see what the window is going to be for them to be anything other than what has been for the last half decade. I feel like Kellyn Moore has not only rode the waves with like coaching Dak Prescott, it's also like the guys he's replaced. throughout his career as an offensive coordinator have really elevated his profile. Like, he replaces Scott Linahan in Dallas, who everyone in Dallas didn't like and thought was like outdated.

He replaces Joe Lombardi in Los Angeles, who everyone thought was outdated and nobody liked. He replaces Brian Johnson, who wasn't outdated, but nobody liked in Philadelphia as a play caller, not as a person. I don't mean him like that. So I think he's had his profile elevated by that and the fact that he started very young, which like it doesn't matter how good you are. As long as you're like in your 20s and you're your coach, you're like, whoa, this guy's a future, a rising star. So I do that he has that going for him. But like, when you're him, if I'm looking at it from his perspective, like, why would I take this job? I think this is going to be his only opportunity to get a head coaching job. Because I think in

Philadelphia, this is probably the best it's going to get for him. Because next year, who knows, if the offensive line gets a little banged up and everything changed, Sequin gets hurt, I think there's a chance that we're asking about Kellynne Moore if he's a problem next year. And then he's never going to be in consideration for one of these jobs. So I think it's like a strike while the iron's hot type of thing from Moore's perspective. Yeah, I can see it from Kellynne Moore's perspective for sure. I will point out that this was the worst offense the Eagles had since Jalen Hertz became the starter, just DVOA-W-W-A-W-W-Wise.

And look at the freaking roster, A.J. Brown, Devante Smith, Seekwan, Barclay. This is the best Eagles roster in my lifetime. I've never seen anything like this. So you're 14th in DVOA with this group. And I'm not saying it's all on him. You know, Jalen Hertz, we've talked about Jalen Hertz having ups and downs, but Jalen Hertz has had those limitations in the past and those issues in the past.

And the offense was better than it is this year. I don't think it's the easiest play. Like, it is easy from a talent perspective. You do have, you know, what does Hertz want to do? What's Nick Siriani want to do? Ruiz, you have brought up in the past.

Jeff Stoutland's doing the run game. So now, you know, you are dealing with a bunch, for better or worse, Some of that's great that you have Jeff Stalton as the O-line coach and you have all that talent. But it's not like go in and do whatever you want. But so I wouldn't say I didn't look at this Eagles offense this year. I was like, man, you know, that was a brilliant coaching job. They're doing more with less.

If anything, it was kind of the opposite when I looked at it. But I'm with you guys. It's really those Dak Prescott years, you know? He had good offenses there. And since then, you know, he coached Justin Herbert. That wasn't Justin Herbert's best season. I know they had injuries and other issues there. This wasn't Jailen Hurtt's best season.

This wasn't the Eagles best season. So I'm very much, I don't know what to make of it, but maybe he'll have success. And I do think the Saints also add to Deontes point, I don't think that was your number one destination. If you were a head coaching candidate to go to New Orleans this cycle. No, they were like two turn downs away from interviewing Deontay for the job, honestly. I don't know if I would have taken that one out. No, it's not right for me. All right.

Last thing, we just wanted to fire off some initial thoughts about this Eagles chiefs Super Bowl matchup. We're going to dig deep next week when we get down there. But for now, we just said, hey, what's one thing that interests you about this matchup that you're curious about that maybe you're going to, you know, when we're doing interviews and talking to coaches and players next week that you're going to ask about or just an X's and O's thing, whatever. I'll start because my thing has been as soon as I found out the matchup, it was

Fangio with this defense against Patrick Mahomes and this offense. They faced off eight times. Mahomes has won every single time. But if, you know, that tends to happen with him. Yeah, you got to look at the other side of the ball too, who Fangio was playing with at quarterback. If you look at the numbers,

it's really, there's no like pattern. There's some games where Mahomes absolutely cooked him. There's other games where you say, all right, you know, this is definitely a below average performance from Patrick Mahomes. So it's all those things. And I think what's most interesting. to me is that the Fangio defense is about no explosive plays, part of it at least, and making you work for every single thing. Tom Brady was hammering that point home. Like, I hate playing

against this defense because you have to earn every single thing. Look at how hard it is for Jade and Daniels. And then you look at this Chiefs offense. And how do they kind of play anyway? It's like they do not create explosive plays. Like this version of Mahomes is so well equipped to just put together that nine to 11 play drive. And yeah, well, I'll convert on 30. and six every single time on this drive and you won't be able to believe it. And so now what does it look like when kind of these two styles meet in the Super Bowl? And what wrinkles does Fangio have? He's had some really interesting like third down stuff,

these playoffs where he's pulling out a look that you literally haven't seen all season. Like they had to play against Matthew Stafford. It was a third down, three defensive linemen. He's playing dime, I think. He drops eight and it leads to this sack where Stafford's just holding on to the football where if they did that this season, maybe they did, but they didn't do it often. It was like in week eight or whatever. So that's what makes the playoff so fun.

And now you have like the smartest quarterback in the league probably against this defensive coordinator who has literally seen everything over 30 years and what does that matchup look like. So that is my most interesting matchup or nugget going into this game. Yeah. Whenever you hear like a coach talk about like a bin but don't break style of defense, the caveat is always like, yeah, we want to make them go. 10 for 10 on the driver's score touchdown and they always add in the great ones

will do it. And then you got to do something else. Well, guess what they're going up against? They're going up against one of the great ones, maybe one of the greatest ones. And the greatest ones that, like you laid out at this specific style of offense, that you have to play against them. I think that's a good one. The one I'm going to, I'm actually like

looking back at the last Super Bowl matchup between these teams. And it's how the Eagles leverage Jalen Hertz as a runner, especially when they go empty. because in that last Super Bowl matchup, I thought Spaggs did a good job of taking away their base run game,

but you saw later on in that game, they went empty and they started doing the quarterback draws with Kelsey kind of leading the way, and that really unlocked the run game for them. So I wonder if, one, that's a similar approach that the Eagles take this time around. Stoughtland was there, obviously last time. We'll have say in the run game this time,

so I could see that happening, but you know Spaggs is going to be ready for that and have something for it. So I want to see kind of what that matchup looks like, how the Eagles have been doing that all season. We did see him go empty and run the ball a little bit throughout the playoffs. And I want to see how the Chiefs have kind of reckoned with that on defense against quarterbacks like Josh Allen, who will do the same thing.

For me, and before I get to mind to kind of talk about something that Shiel brought up, I think the most impressive thing to me for Vic Fangio in this defense in this postseason is they've done so much to basically put quarterbacks on an island where they have to do so much of the work themselves. I would say outside of the Rams game, and I don't even know how much of this. you can attribute to just like Sean McVeigh as a play caller, bad conditions or whatever. For the other two playoff games they've been in, they have totally cut off their opponent's offense's ability to run the football.

And they've left their quarter. They've left the opposing quarterback on an island in obvious passing situations where you don't have to blitz if you don't want to. You don't have to play man if you don't want to. You can keep that umbrella over your defense. You can pick out the matchups that you want and allow Milton Williams, Jalen Carter. We've seen obviously some splash plays from Nolan Smith, who I think, I think Bo Wolf pointed out on his podcast that this is the most single postseason sacks that has happened for an Eagles player in a postseason.

So he's obviously had a bunch of splash plays that allows that allows Zach Bond to be able to match up with tight ends. I think in a lot of ways, the most interesting thing about what Sheila is saying is when the Super Bowl gets here, I'm going to be locked in on early downs, knowing that Kansas City wants to get in the third and manageable to see whether or not Vic Fangio has an answer for the run game. In the second half of the 2022 Super Bowl, when these two teams played, Patrick Mahomes was basically able to do whatever he wanted because Jonathan Gannon could not control early downs. They were able to get whatever they wanted. They could get in third and short. If they weren't anything longer than third and short,

you knew that the pass rush wasn't getting home because that cheats offensive line really kind of dominated that pass rush in that game. I think in this game, we're going to see a different flow of the game if Vic Fangio is able to control early downs. And that just creates a different context to me for Patrick Mahom. You know, we saw what that looked like in the first half of last year's Super Bowl, where you saw San Francisco's front was absolutely lights out in the first half, taking away the run game, forcing him in an obvious pass. And we got some Chase Young pressures in sacks. We got to see Nick Bosa affect the quarterback. They were able to force a turnover. They were to force a turnover coming out of the half from Patrick Mahones because they had to respect the pass rush.

I'm interested to see whether or not the Eagles can get into that. And then for me on the other end, the thing that I'm probably most interested in is, and Steve, I think, you kind of pointed to this as well, what they can do, what Philadelphia can do in the run game to make Steve Spagnolo a little nervous, right? Like usually with the Chiefs, and I think the data bears this out, the heavier you get offensively personnel-wise, the better they get a stop in the run because the more they can pack the line of scrimmage. The best version of the Eagles offense, and this has been whether it's Kellemore, Brian Johnson, or Shane Steichen, the best version of this offense is to get an 11 personnel where now you've got to be concerned about giving up vertical passes and they can

handle ball off to the back against the light box and let him go create. Sequin Berkeley is probably the best, like, light box creator that there is in the NFL. If you give him airspace to work into before he can make a guy missed, you're probably in trouble. I think that this is going to be a really fascinating test case in. If Kansas City starts blitzing them a bunch, what will the answers be? Last week, it was RPLs getting the ball out to Goddard. It was sprint outs to get, you know, hitch throws out to A.J. Brown along the sideline.

I'm really fascinated to see what those answers will be in this game because they're going to be necessary if you want to keep Jalen Hertz from having a deal with all the crazy blitzes and rotations you're going to get from a Spag's defense on passing downs. Love it. There's so many. Yeah, I feel like it's the defensive coordinators. I feel like make this matchup, especially interesting if you are a football nerd.

So again, we'll get into all of it next week. We'll be coming to you with shows on Monday, on Tuesday, on Thursday of next week, and of course the post-game pod after the Super Bowl. And if there's breaking news, in the meantime, I'm sure we'll be jumping on and talking about that around the league. So you can check out all the written work at the ringer.com.

Thank you to Deonté Lee. Thank you to Stephen Ruiz. Thank you to Troy Farkas for producing additional production supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ram Gopal. We'll be back next week. Everyone have a good week. We'll talk to you next time on the Ringer NFL show.

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