The Ringer NFL Show - Franchise-Tag-Deadline Recap and How to Spend Money in Free Agency

Episode Date: March 10, 2021

Kevin and Nora are joined by Warren Sharp to recap the players who will be playing on the franchise tag next season, as well as the players who weren’t tagged and who will now be free agents this offseason (2:32). They then talk about Warren’s research into how teams have spent their money in free agency in recent years and how that has correlated to winning (45:07). Hosts: Kevin Clark and Nora Princiotti Guest: Warren Sharp Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Ringer FC is your podcast home for all things soccer on the Ringer. Join us on Monday and Thursday for Stadio hosted by Ryan Hunt and Musa Akwanga as they cover the major European football leagues and a lot more. On Wednesday, Arsenal Legend and former England international Ian Wright hosts Rite's House, discussing the latest in European football with a rotation of special guests. Check out Ringer FC on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark, joined today by Nora Princiotti and Warren Sharp. Warren just revealed as soon as we're going to be. we started recording that he's listening to a lot of Taylor Swift. Warren, what's going on,

buddy? I don't know. We've got a famous star covering another star. The stars are aligning here. I've been checking out Nora's new series. It's been pretty cool. And so happy to hear her exploring one of her passions a little bit more and sharing out with the rest of us. It's been pretty neat. Otherwise, for me, I'm just just head down, working on some offseason projects and happy to join you guys. So we're going to get to a couple of those projects. There's a lot to talk about. A lot happened today, Nora. A lot happened. I'm still, I'm like trying to not get a little misty-eyed.

I love that we're making a swiftly out of Warren Sharp. But yeah, a lot went down. Very newsy day. Not just the tags and the non-tagged. Levanta David re-signed with the bucks. Kyle Long's returning to the NFL. Trent Brown gets traded back to the Patriots. I say Wilson and the Dolphins.

Just a lot there. We'll start with the tags and the non-tag. So the franchise tag deadline was today, Tuesday. Here are the players that got tagged. Bucks wide receiver Chris Godwin. The Bears tagged Alan Robinson, which I think we all, maybe for content's sake,

thought might not happen, but it always was the thing that made most sense as long as the Bears could afford it. The Saints signed Marcus Williams, a bit of a surprise there. Jets got Marcus May on the tag. Leonard Williams with Giants,

Cowboys quarterback, Dak Prescott, procedurally got tagged, but obviously he resigned his deal on Monday. Brandon Shurf for the Washington football team, Jaguars, Cam Robinson, and the Panthers, Taylor Moton. Warren Sharp, when you look at this tag list, what do you think is the biggest deal? Well, I'm just looking back. I think what is there, is there 10 or 11?

In either case, it's less than 15 that we had in 2020, but it's more than what we had in the prior several years to that. We had six in 2019, six in 2018, seven in 2017. We had a high watermark of 10 franchise slash transition tag players in 2016. And Prior to that, the three years, we're all well below 10 as well. So we're seeing, it's not as much as last year, but last year really stood out. I think overall we're seeing a pretty good number of these players being utilized. And the one that kind of jumps out to me, I think, is one of the better players who I would have loved to see him get a long-term deal. But maybe this means he'll be leaving next year is Alan Robinson.

I just want him to find a quarterback to throw him the football. I'm interested to see what Chicago ends up doing from that perspective as well. Yeah, I think that's, I mean, Alan Robinson, there are very few players, I hope for good things more than Alan Robinson. Just because even go back to college, what he's had to go through in the quarterback position, nor when you look at that list, what stands out? Can we just talk about the Saints and get it out of the way? I'm really fired up about this. This is unbelievable. They keep spending money.

Hey, whatever. No, no, no, no. they can find a way. No. Are you surprised? Are you surprised? No, at this point, I am a, I am now a Saints cap truther. It's not real.

It's not there. It's not real. The Saints are not real. The Salary Cap is a social construct. Yeah. But it's not. Here's the thing. It's not.

It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. And they just keep going deeper into the hole. And it's really stressing me out. And I mean, I get it. like Williams is a great player,

but here's the thing is that I have a lot of questions about if they're going to be able to keep the top two guys from that same draft that he was a part of, Ramchick and Latimore, who would both theoretically be on their 50 year options. Now they can lower the cap numbers this year if they extend those guys.

But holy smokes, are we seriously just going to keep doing this? And then the other question, where is the $100 million going to come from? Like seriously, where is it going to come from?

I have so many Saints fans in my mentions being like, if you cut Kwan Alexander, it saves $14 million. Do you know what $14 million is not $100 million? What the hell is going on here? So Marcus Williams

is the second highest graded safety since 2019 according to PFF. He was the 15th ranked for agent by Pro football focus as well. he's the kind of guy you want to keep. And if you can do it and you can afford it, it's good business by the Saints. But I'm with you, Nora, I continue to be astounded by this. And I just don't warn, where are we on the Sand Salary gap?

Do you believe it exists? I would love to see what happens if they can't get it down. I mean, I want to, I'm rooting. At this point, I'm rooting for, you know, something to actually occur here where it doesn't fall in line with what typically happens and they're somehow able to make magic. I want to see what happens when things blow up. But they always seem to figure out a way. So I'm not going to hold my breath here.

I think that they're going to figure out a way. Like Nora and you, I'm going to be shocked and surprised to figure out how they're going to get there. But inevitably, I think they somehow figure it out. What happens if they're just over the cap? That happened in the 90s a handful of times. And teams got fined a lot of money. So it's not good. We haven't had that.

We haven't had that in, I believe, over two decades, but we can look into it. All right. So, yeah, I don't think that there were many surprises on this list. We'll get to the non-tagged here because I think that that's, that's a more intriguing list because obviously these players are going to get out to the open market. So Hunter Henry from the Chargers, Kenny Gallaudet for the Lions, Titans, John Hsu-Smith, Juju Smith-Schuster from the Steelers, Texas, wide receiver, Will Fuller, Trent Williams, from the 49ers, who could not be tagged by his deal, but sounds like he

wants to come back, 49ers. He's been talking about that since December. The Buccaneers, Shaq Barrett, and obviously the Chris Godwin, Shaq Barrett decision that the Bucks had to make was an interesting one, and we'll get to that in a second. But DePree from the Steelers, Yonick and Gakway to the Ravens, Shaqs, Aaron Jones of the Packers, Carl Lawson and the Bengals, William Jackson of the Bengals, Joe Tunney from the Patriots and Ram Safety John Johnson. Warren, I want to talk about the Bucks here, the Super Bowl champions who tagged Chris Godwin and didn't tag Shaq Barrett. They get Levanti.

David Dunn. Everyone assumes Shack Barrett comes back on a big deal. How does their sort of team building look for you? Do they make the right decision? And beyond that, if the bucks just run it back next year and don't collect, you know, bargain bin, free agents or whatever, just had the same team, which might happen because the way the cap is and the way some of the prices are going up here, is that good enough to win another Super Bowl if they just run it back for it? It's good enough because it can happen. It's not going to be optimal for them. It's not going to and put them as like the front runners to make it happen. What obviously I liked as the season progressed is how they seem to take on more of

Tom Brady's identity, do things more intelligently as the season progressed that were in the best interest of the football team. Even as it related to as quickly as late in the season as the Super Bowl itself, changing up a few things and doing some things differently. Like that first play of the Super Bowl was a play action pass. When they ran the ball so often on first down, it's like, okay, great. They're actually going to change a little bit. And I think there's better things in store for them just from an efficiency perspective

on offense that we can expect them to receive next off season or sorry, during the off season and into next season. I think locking up Godwin was very important for them. He provided a massive asset there that they get for at least a 20, 21 football season. Overall, I think that they're still going to be a good team because of Brady. because they have the talent on offense and their offensive line is still going to be intact. And so I don't think they need to make as many additions in free agency this offseason. But I do think that there are going to be other teams that are perhaps a little bit more able to make a lot of free agent acquisitions that are going to, I don't want to say leapfrog them, but be on that level playing field with them as strong competitors.

And keep in mind, they did some smart things last off season. I think they signed 15 unrestricted free agents, one of which was Tom Brady. 14 of those 15 were only on one year deals. We're going to see the ability for teams to be getting guys on one year deals this offseason with the number of guys that are available and the potential for the cap to be much higher in 2022. So they still can make some moves, but I think a lot of other teams, there's going to be some super teams potentially that are going after some of these guys that are going to make the competition

really strong. Totally agree. the number of bridge contracts we're going to see over the next couple of weeks is going to be fascinating to watch because there are so many guys once the cap spikes in a couple of years. Charles Robinson had, I think, the report of the day. There's so much been going, so much has been going on. It kind of got lost. But Charles Robinson said that there's a couple people in the league who think in just a few years, the salary cap could touch $250 million, right? And if you look at the way that the TV contracts supposed to come down, that tracks. Like, it's supposed to double the TV revenue once the contracts come down later this week, I guess. And once that starts to trickle into the cap, yeah, there's going to be a huge explosion. And so if you're reaching free agency this year, you might want to sign a one-year deal and hope that there's a huge spike next year or a two-year deal and know that there's going to be a spike in two years. So I think you're going to see that timing.

I think you could see what you're describing more in those super teams. I think it's fascinating. Nora, when you look at this list, and what I like about franchise tag deadline day is now we don't have to speak in hypotheticals because we know who's actually reaching the open market. when you look at this list, if you were just your average team, and let's say, let's say you're a blank slate, okay, who is your number one free agent on your big board here that didn't get tagged today? If you're just going out and saying, I want this guy, just from a pure skill and talent standpoint, where are you going?

It's Shaq Barrett, I think. And I'm kind of, well, I'm taking Trent Williams out of this because I'm pretty sure he's going to stay where he is, but I think it's Shaq Barrett, just a premier pass rush or someone who can really make an impact on a defense. Warren, same question. If you're a GM and you have just a team that needs every position, who are you targeting on this list of the non-tax? Well, I can tell you who I'm really interested to see what type of contract he signed. And that's Aaron Jones, the running back from the Packers.

But of this list, I'm looking for some difference makers. I want to see Will Fuller, Kenny Gallaudet. You know, those are two guys that can open some things up on some offense. and really give teams, you know, would either of those guys sign for a one-year deal? I don't know. Will they want more money? Like, that's the type of thing that is exactly, as you said, fascinating. Those are the two guys for me.

And we had a conversation recently about Fuller. Kevin and I did. His free agency is really interesting to me, especially now that Robinson has been tagged, because you take the guy who, if he'd gotten there, would have been the number one guy at that position. It's still a good receiver year, but you kind of take the premier dude off the board. And then to me for that just slightly below tier, it gets even more interesting. There's less money to go around, but teams need these players. And there are really good ones available. So how that pie gets divvied up was was interesting before, but I think even more so now that

that Robinson is staying in Chicago. Nora, matchmaker. here. Galloway and Will Fuller, pair them up with the team that has money to spend. Okay, well, let's stay on, let's stay on Fuller for a second again, because I want to get Warren's thoughts on what we talked about in that other pod. We talked about the Cardinals and we talked about the Colts, two offenses that I think it would be really fascinating to see what happens with those when you inject the speed element that makes Will Fuller who he is. Warren, what do you, you have any thoughts on either of those, those fits? I kind of like the Colts. I kind of like the Colts a little bit because to me, that's a, that's a position room that could utilize his deep

threat speed. And I think, you know, with Ty Why slowing down and, and now phasing out, like, I think that Will Fuller would be magic there. I think the Cardinals, you know, that's a passing off, at least in Indy, and I don't want to get too down on what they're doing in Arizona. But at least in Indy, I feel like, yeah, yeah, the quarterback is an unknown, but they've got a strategy there with the way that they want to incorporate players and utilize their passing attack. I feel like in Arizona, there's a lot of questions about Cliff Kingsbury usage of some of these guys and how they interchange. And I feel like more confident, I feel Will Fuller will have a higher ceiling in Indianapolis

for certain. And I would rather see that pairing personally. Can we stand on Cliff for just one second? Because I know this is a bit of an aside, but I do want to dive into it. Because I think Warren, you and I were both, I guess, pleasantly surprised in the first year of Cliff and then Cliff takes a step back last year. And I'm at the point now where when you have view his entire tenure, even though I was down on the higher to begin with, I have been disappointed relative to the expectations I've had for Cliff coming into last year and Kyler coming into

last year because I really thought that Kyler was going to make a leap like we've seen from a lot of these other second year quarterbacks. I still love Kyler. I think he's a franchise quarterback, all that stuff. Big picture in Arizona is Cliff the guy. And what is Kyler's sealing in 2021? I mean, Kyler is just so dynamic if he stays healthy. But there is a ceiling there. I think the ceiling is lower on Cliff than it is in Kyler. I think I think Kyler gives them more. I think Cliff just needs to figure out what he wants, what he wants to do. I saw a lot of great adjustment from him that first year there and adapting what we thought was just going to be straight up for, verse all the time to doing a lot more things and basing it based upon who was healthy and when they were available and what the

defense was weak against. But I didn't feel like we got a very good rhythm or consistent picture as to what their offense was last season. And I think he's going to take a little bit of work for him to perfect what he actually wants Kyler to do. And the time of excuse making for him being a guy who's just getting his feet wet in the NFL is coming to an abrupt end because you're going to lose the ability to have Kyler on a great rookie quarterback deal very soon. And so you have to make some big strides this offseason to improve what you're doing, especially as that NFC West improves their teams as well. We should see a better San Francisco 49ers team. We should see a better quarterback behind center for the Los Angeles Rams. And as a result, I mean, let's pretend that

Russell Wilson is staying in Seattle for the time being. You're going to have some great opponents in that division that you're going to have to work your way past. And right now I just don't have a lot of confidence in Cliff's plan. And I'm really curious, to be honest with you, as I break down that offense more this offseason, what I think they need to do differently this upcoming year. I'm not to the point where I can give specific recommendations, but we know what they were doing last year was not maximizing their potential. I would also say that the time of excuses is over for any college to pro coach because the gap between the college and the pro game has never been more narrow. Like this is the great merging of all the levels of football is one of the stories of last decade.

And so, you know, if you come from college now, you're hired essentially because you understand the college offenses, which have now become the NFL offenses. And there's just a, there's no, there's no leap there. This isn't Jimmy Johnson being hired by the Cowboys in the 80s. I mean, you're actually, your strength is your college scheme, and that should be able to work almost out of the gate in the NFL. So the fact that it's your two, if we're still giving Cliff any excuses, I think that's probably misguided. Well, I want to come back to Gallaudet and give him his doing this, but it's just funny because to your point, Hunter Henry, who's going to be the premier tight end, his football life goes back to Pulaski Academy in Arkansas, the school where they don't punt, which has. has so much to do with the arc of how all those different levels of football have melded together over the last few years. So it's just a funny coincidence in terms of what you were just

saying. Bill Belichick is friends with the coaches who don't punt. Yes, really loves. And just a lot of like screen grabs of post game congratulations and general lovey-doveiness between Bill Belichick and Hunter Henry. I really know what the Patriots would be doing with Hunter Henry at this current moment, but there's definitely appreciation and a lot of good feelings there. But on Goladay, this one is in some ways

maybe not as interesting to me as Fuller just because he's kind of the guy now, which means he's probably going to end up on one of these teams that just have a lot of money. Like the dream scenario, I think, is the dolphins to pair him with Parker, but the other people who are really going to be in contention, I would guess, would be

either of the New York teams, the Jets or the Giants, or the Jaguars. And I don't, the thing about sort of overlaying that on what those offenses are going to look like a little bit to a lesser extent with the Giants, but with the Jets and the Jaguars, it's just kind of like they are such a blank canvas. And Kenny Goliday is not a bad guy to start painting with. But I do wonder how he feels about that at this point in his career because I feel like, he's going to end up just like getting a bag from one of that group that has it to give out. Warren, it's interesting to me when I look at the list of the non-tags who are wishing for agency, they need to be concentrated at two positions, skill guys and pass rushers, because I'm looking at your Gala days, your Hunter Henry's, your Jujus, your Will Fullers, and then on the

other side, you have Shack Barrett, Bud Dupri, Yonik, and Gakway, Carl Lawson, obviously we talked about Matthew Gion earlier, another defensive lineman. You have studied, a lot, and we're going to get you this a little bit later in the show, how teams who win spend their money? Is it smart to go after a pass catcher in a free agency? Is it smart to go after a pass rusher in free agency? What if you were, and I know this is a broad general question, but if you're looking at how smart teams spend their money, do they go after these two skill guys, or is this going to be teams that tend to make the mistakes are the ones who go after and give a ton of money to a Hunter Henry or give a ton of money to a Bud Dupree?

No, I think, I think it's the latter. The teams that are, going to go after these. I think Nora made the perfect argument. You may have a guy like Kenny Galladay who's just going to get a big bag from one of the teams that doesn't have a good quarterback yet and doesn't really know what they want to do and is attempting to

incorporate a new offensive system in there. And he may not actually produce for them and then we're going to look back in a couple years to say, hey, this was tremendous waste of money to spend it on a guy who is only getting seven or eight targets a game and

maybe was injured a couple of the weeks. Like it's just not a great usage of money. The teams that are going to be making the smart decisions this particular offseason because of the cap issues are the ones that are going to be able to convince certain select players of this group run it with me for one season. And so I look at a guy like a Jonu Smith who could be a great asset. And I'm thinking, man, what if Buffalo could convince him to come up there for one season? Like that would be a pretty fun pairing.

You know, so it really is going to factor in. I wonder how many of these guys are going to look at it and say, what are the best teams, quarterback situations I can go into for one year and then try to hit free agency after I make a little bit of money, but more so produce some great numbers in this new location for one season and then move elsewhere. But there are going to be some teams out there inevitably because there always are. that are going to fork over a ton of money for a guy like a Bud Dupree or somebody like that

and maybe in a couple of years end up regretting it. Nora, what are the next, let's say, three years of Alan Robinson look like? Oh, wow. He's got to get out of there, man. Happiness, right? At some point, there's happiness. You know what? Yes.

I am an optimist. He suffers through another year and then he gets out. And he buys a really nice house if he does it all. already owned one. I'm sure he has a nice house. He's 27 years old. He will turn 28 in August. He has two straight seasons of 1,000 yards. But the year before that in 2018, he was hurt. Obviously, at the 1,400-yard season in 2015 with Jacksonville. I think playing out the tag is okay. Listen, one thing we learned in the Dak Prescott thing, and obviously it's a different pay scale who's you're a quarterback, but the tag can be your friend, okay? And I remember talking to people

on the player side and the union side a couple years ago and they're saying, listen, the tag stinks as far as player movement and all that stuff. And I remember talking to Aaron Rogers a couple years ago and he said if there was one thing he could do with player movement, it would be to remove the franchise tag. And then a couple weeks later, he signed an extension because in large part,

Packers would have kept tagging him because he's Aaron Rogers. But he still can make a boatload of money using the tag and using short deals. So I think with some combination of short deals and a tag, he can make a bunch of money and he can get eventually to where he needs to be, even if it's done next year. And maybe, maybe, it's a big maybe, maybe the Bears have a good quarterback next year. I don't know.

He's also a great case study in that it doesn't necessarily matter what numbers he puts up next year if his quarterback is not great. People are always going to recognize him in free agency the following off season is this guy is the premier blue chip wide receiver. All of his numbers have been depressed because of these crappy quarterbacks that he's had to work with in the past. So what he needs to do is invest in a little program of self-love and just get through this season. And then hopefully he can move on like you just mentioned. Self-care for Alan Robinson? Self-care. Is there any other, I guess you would say analogous player to Alan Robinson more than we don't talk enough about where, you know, I remember actually Kevin Demloff told me this about Robert Woods about how they identified Robert Woods when he was in Buffalo as a great player whose numbers were depressed because of his quarterback.

And maybe there's no answer here. But if there's kind of the next Alan Robinson, we're in two or three years, we're going to be saying, hey, this guy's an elite wide receiver. He just doesn't have the quarterback help. Is there anyone you can point to? I actually would go, maybe we're talking like DJ Moore or somebody like that, somebody in the Carolina system because we didn't get a whole lot to see two years ago.

Last year, we had Teddy. And Teddy's great for, you know, winning games. You don't think you're going to win, staying close in games. But he's not a premier. type quarterback. And I do think that there are some talented receivers down there. And DJ Moore is definitely one of them who is probably getting a little bit overlooked because of the team's record and the quarterbacks that he's had to work with. But he's not the only one. I mean, there's a number of different guys around the league who are suffering with subpar quarterbacks

for a couple of years. But there's no doubt you go all the way back to college and look at the quarterbacks that Allen Robbins has had to work with. And I don't know if we've seen a better receiver suffering with worse. of quarterbacks passing him the football for such an extended stretch than we've seen Alan Robinson. I'm sure there's some other guys, but he's definitely up there. My dream is that Deshaun Watson and Alan Robinson find each other somewhere. That would be so beautiful. We would just, we would be, we would all be so happy for them. Just written in the stars. I don't care where it is. I just want those two guys playing together

soulmates. Everybody puts up incredible numbers and they win a bunch of games. We're manifesting that right now. Mm-hmm. Not a scale position player, but the inverse of what we're talking about and one that I'm interested to see what happens is Bud Dupree. Because he's going to get a little bit of the, okay, yeah, production is X, but look who you were playing with. Look at all the pass rushers in Pittsburgh who all made life easier for each other. Right. And I think it's a fascinating, like he's a really good player, right?

But he's a bit of a high quality generalist. does a lot of things really well. Hard to say exactly like one thing where it's like, oh, Bud Dupree is the best player at doing this. And that's an interesting position to be in this year, I think, because you can kind of start to poke holes in the case, which I think is a little bit silly because the big picture is that he's a super good player.

But that's a test case, I think, for what happens to a guy at the higher end of the market in this strange year because you can still put together the case where teams might start to penny pinch a little bit. So I'll be interested to see what happens with him kind of in the inverse way from what we're talking about. So the Steelers and then the Bengals and the Ravens

are the three teams that have multiple players on the non-tag list that in theory could have been tacked, right? One on both sides of the ball for the Steelers, Juju, who basically priced himself out of Pittsburgh grew up being really good and they have Chase Claypool and all that stuff. And Juj is going to commend a lot of money. Bud Dupring on the side of the ball. Warren,

I'll ask you this, with the two players they're losing, with Ben Rathsper coming back next year, broad question. Are the Steelers going to be good? I think the Steelers are going to be good. I don't know that they're going to be great, but I think they're going to be good.

Like a 10-win team? I think they will have a floor as long as Ben doesn't get hurt of seven to eight wins. And they've got a seat. of, yeah, 10 to 11, depending upon how everything breaks around them. I don't personally think that Juju was that he was not a difference maker for them. And they're just so good at bringing in wide receiver talent that I think they will be fine. I also like the move that they made in the offseason with getting rid of their coordinator, Randy Fickner, and allowing Matt Canada to take over the rains there. I think there were a lot of things that Canada was brought to Pittsburgh

for prior to 2020 that he wanted to try to incorporate, but we were dealing with an abbreviated offseason and somebody else who was ultimately calling the shots there as the OC, which was restricting some of his creativity and things that he wanted to incorporate. I think with a more defined offseason that while it is still being played in the midst of a pandemic, we've got a clear-cut game plan as to what we're going to be doing here this offseason with working in some of the things that Canada wants to do plus his experience from last season. I think the offense is going to look a little bit different. It's not going to be hopefully as predictable. And defensively, they still have a lot of good players there. One of the interesting things about a Bud Dupree, for instance, is you've got

guys who are able to put up numbers with, as Nora indicated, different system, different coaches, different players around him against a certain level of competition. Now he's viewed as to like, well, what was he able to do the last couple of years? But going to a new team that's going to put him possibly with different types of players around him, asking him to do a slightly different role, potentially, maybe a bigger, more expanded role with a different coach against different offensive players, he may not look the same. And you may be paying for what you were seeing as opposed to paying for what you're going

to be getting. And that's kind of one of the perils. I'm not, I'm not saying that that's definitely going to be the case for him, but it very well could happen because that Pittsburgh defense overall top the bottom was very good. And he was part of that. But asking him to stand on his own and do those things and do more of that, those things, because he's commanding a higher price in free agency, may be a challenge. We'll just let the listener knows that the Titans have released Malcolm Butler, another intriguing free agent on the market. And yes, they can go either way. So I got distracted by that. But the point that I wanted to make is, I'm with you,

Warren, that seven wins for the Steelers as a around the floor makes a lot of sense. I just want to throw out there that Ben Rothlisberger might not be good anymore. Yeah, that's, Nora, I think we're on the same side of this. And I think we both kind of are, I don't want to say jaws drop. But when you said Warren that this doers are going to be good, I think we both kind of looked at each other in the Zoom and we're like, wow, where is this one going? Because I really do think that the roster there is really good.

I think Kevin Colbert is one of the best general managers in football. I think Mike Tomlin's a really good coach. I think that roster is stacked. But I think that the quarter of position is really important. And I think Ben Rothsburger has a chance, has a chance to be like unbelievably bad. and we've seen what the backup options have been. Well, two years ago, they still went, what, eight and eight with Mason Rudolph starting almost every game and Duck Hodges.

So I just think that I give him a lot of grief, right? But their head coach there does a very good job of having a decent enough floor with almost every single team. Mike Tomlin does a good enough job with getting these guys ready to play games. they absolutely lose games that they should win too often. I felt like their defensive schemes with Keith Butler are terrible. They've got issues there. They had issues with their offense coordinator, but now he's gone.

I don't disagree whatsoever. I think Ben Rothesberger absolutely could have trouble this season and not perform to the level that we think that they need to get him to perform at in order to make the playoffs. But I still think that it would be surprising, at least for me, to see him have a, just a horrendous season that makes the Steelers go four and 12. Like, I don't, we're four and 13 with 17. I don't see that happening. I still see seven to eight wins as like their floor.

Because they're going to be enough in enough close one score games that they'll be able to scratch and claw their way to a record that's close to 500, in my opinion. I'm with you and I think where we're settling here is that it's actually a huge testament to the more stable factors in that organization because again, the quarterback might be really terrible. Both those things can be true and it would be, it would result in seven wins, I think. I think that's it. Like, Minka Fitzpatrick was winning games by himself over the past two years.

Like, this is, it's a good roster and it just shows you what the floor is when you have a good GM and a good coach and a lot of talent. So Ben Rathesberger is just sort of separate from everything else there and he limits them and they're not going to win 14 games next year. But did Kevin Colbert and Mike Tomlin keep them a lot of games? All right, let's go through quickly before we get into Warren's big picture thoughts on free agency. By the way, are any other tag thoughts that either of you guys had that we didn't ask about? The Patriots shouldn't have tagged Joe Tooney last year. Like they didn't do it again and he's going to be a free agent. Why did they do that last year? What was the point of that? A rhetorical question presented for

Okay. I didn't know. But, you know, do you think they should have signed him? They could have, I mean, either signed him or just let him go then. Yeah. All right. So what's really matter? I'm just saying. Let's lead that into the discussion about the Patriots here.

So they traded for Trump Brown today. They're obviously going to retool their offensive line a little bit. Nora, this offensive line in 2021 looks like what? Uh, It's just so hard to know when you don't know who the quarterback is because they prioritize. I mean, it's funny that we're talking about Trent Brown, who's like the largest human I've ever seen in my entire life. Huge person.

They've prioritized size with their alignment. In a lot of cases, there's some exceptions. Like David Andrews has been an exception to that. But in general, they have a pretty clear physical prototype that they like in those guys. And I think it's really interesting to just look at how. some of those parameters that they've laid out influence who eventually will make sense in that system. I mean, just the Trent Brown story with New England is hysterical, right? Like, he has an incredible year for them. He's for like a million dollars. Then gets this crazy contract.

The Patriots get a compensatory pick because he goes to, I was about to say Oakland, Las Vegas. And now he's back. They will not be paying him that much. And, and, And then we'll see what the rest holds. But just that Trent Brown has had this back and forth with the Patriots is fairly unlikely. And I think very interesting to me. Warren, if you were named GM of the Patriots tomorrow with personnel power, what would be your first few moves? Yeah, it's, well, it doesn't go past the quarterback position. We got to figure out what we're doing there.

And like Norris said, the offensive line is very important there. They ranked 27th in pass blocking efficiency, but they did go up against a difficult schedule of opposing pass rushers. They went up against the fourth toughest schedule. So the quarterback, as we know, controls a lot of the pressure and ultimately, you know, the sacks that he receives. And with a different quarterback, potentially they fare a little bit better. But you're not going to get far, given what that division is producing.

I'm still really interested to see what's going on down in Miami with their direction, with their draft pick as well as with Tua, is how good that offense in the passing game and the passing attack specifically is going to be. But Buffalo is a team now that is obviously deserving of being the division favorites, and you're going to have to figure out a way to compete with them and be able to be productive in that offense for the bills has a quarterback who can, deal with pressure and who can get the ball out when he's not dealing with pressure. And so you're going to need to find a quarterback and they had one.

They didn't have to, I don't feel sorry for them one bit. They didn't have to deal with this for many, many, many, many years and underpaid at the quarterback position while getting the best of all time to stand under center. And so I think we're going to see that has to be the priority for Bill Balichick to get this team turned around is going to be to find a quarterback and get him protection. Boring injury is something crazy. I just don't see much of a path there in 2021 for the AFC East for the Patriots. They're at best playing for a wild card.

And even that would take a lot of maneuvering here. All right. Levante David, two years, $25 million. Nice deal to come back. One of the backbones of that defense, Warren. I assume you have no objections to bring back Levante David. None. Nora?

Absolutely none. Love it. Great. No objections. It passes. Congratulations, Jason Light. You've signed a deal with everybody. Everybody's on board with.

Confetti, frankly. Yeah. And it's also good, just optically and planning-wise, just get that deal done today because now all they have to do is worry about Shaq Barrett. And we'll see what happens when free agency starts. It's a good year to have a premium free agent on the market who's not a quarterback because you're not going to probably get one of those Godfather offers from some of these

teams are just capped out because, as we said, the $2 million cap is still five years away. Right now it's going to be flat. or just rise a little bit or go down a little bit, whatever it is, probably around $180 million. And obviously it rose $10 million a year for eight straight years. This is a different cap environment. All right. So Isaiah Wilson to the Dolphins will do this quick.

Bust with the Titans. I didn't want to be with the Titans, according to his social media. He was a first-round pick. Is there any reclaiming Isaiah Wilson's career of Warren? I mean, there could be. I think there's a little bit of history with him and Brian Flores from what I've been hearing. And so if anybody, you know, you're not going to make a move to go get somebody if you don't feel like you're going to be able to get the most out of him. And I feel like they're going to try to figure out a way.

Obviously, the talent was there. It just wasn't coming to fruition. And so I think Brian Flores has done, has given me no reason to doubt that he is capable of. going to the GM and saying, I want to get this guy here. I think we might be able to get something out of him. And I'll trust him that he's, I'll trust Flores more than anything to say, hey, maybe this is a great opportunity for a fresh start. And let's see what we can get out of him.

Nora? Yeah. Well, so both Brian Flores and Wilson went to Poly Prep in New York, not at the same time. And I'm not going to oversell that as something that's going to make a guy who hasn't been super successful as a football player into a star overnight. I think there's something of a relationship and a trust factor there. Big picture, though, it's just good to take swings, right?

Like, they need help there. They need to get better on the offensive line in Miami. So why not buy low in a few different instances? Like, I hope they keep trying things like this because eventually you're going to get it right. and because you can't wait around for eventually, you got to try them all at the same time. So I'm all for, in some ways, this specific move is almost a little bit moot to me.

I just am all for them throwing some darts at the board, trying to improve this position. Because, again, whether it's Tua or if they manage some trade or get another quarterback there, they need better protection for him. And that roster is getting pretty close to a point where it's like, you got to have this figured out because you're ready to go. And the quarterback is obviously 1A in that,

but I think the offensive line is 1B. So I'm just happy they're trying stuff there. Yeah, I'm okay with the flyer there. I don't have high expectations, but it's going to be fine. Also, Kyle Wong's attorney in the NFL. He took 2020 off. Obviously, made three Pro Bowls, very good player when he's healthy. Wish him the best of luck and we'll kind of see what the interest is there.

I definitely think there's a place for him in the NFL. All right, Warren, let's get to your study because it's one of the most fascinating things I've read this offseason. Essentially, you did a deep dive on how to spend money in Fragency. There's a lot I want to get to. It's called Super Bowl champions use Freedency correctly. Big picture, what did you learn?

I learned, you know, I was skeptical about Freedges because I've done studies like this in the past, looking at some of the same types of data, just in different years and I always come up with, you know, don't spend a lot in free agency because you're overspending in general and it's not the way to build a winning roster. But what I found is that there actually is a sweet spot and you can't ignore it like some teams are doing and expect that you're going to be able to reach your ceiling. You have to utilize free agency.

The key is not to use it to the extent that you are relying. upon it to build your team and there's ways that you can structure some of these free agent deals and get guys on board that are actually going to be lynch pins towards you winning a Super Bowl, but you're getting these players on short deals that are in a lot of cases team friendly and putting the right pieces around them or putting them into the right position. We're asking them to do what they do the best and it's a perfect pairing. And we've seen many Super Bowl teams built over the last handful of years because not because they, ignored free agency, but because they used it, but they didn't just go hog wild with it.

They used it intelligently. And it really was a big difference in them making the Super Bowl. All right. So there's two things I want to unpack here. Number one, I'm looking at this chart here over wins versus free agency spending the last two years. And there are obviously good teams and bad teams. The bills and the Saints and the Packers are teams that have spent in free agency and are winning, obviously, whereas the Jets, the Lions, the Jackets. Jaguars or lower are not winning with that money. Take us through. Let's just start with the bad teams.

What are some of the mistakes a team like the Jets or the Lions have made when they're identifying some of these players? And I guess, you know, obviously they've tried to build in large part through agency. Obviously, they've had some draft capital. And the Jets, in some cases have hit on some really good draft picks. But obviously, the strategy didn't work. What did those teams do wrong?

If you look at the team that spent the second highest amount of money, in free agency was the lost now Las Vegas Raiders. And they went out and they signed the number one most expensive free agent offensive lineman in 2019, which was Trent Brown. They went out and signed the number one most expensive free agent wide receiver in 2019, which Tyro Williams. And they went out and signed the number two most expensive free agent safety. They signed all of those players to like max four year deals,

which is like what the top of the line free agents are getting. they're giving them the most amount of money is anybody in the marketplace. And two years later, every single one of those players is gone from the team. So it's these big deals for players that maybe your team's not ready for. Like, did the Raiders really need Trent Brown to be that linchpin difference maker on the offensive line to get them to a certain place? No, they didn't need him. They didn't need this wide receiver to be a difference. You look at it and in many cases some of these teams that are bad, they think it's going to do one of two things.

I guess it's going to save the GM's job, right? The team's losing. Let's get some impact players. Let's go spend in free agency. Or it's going to rally up the fan base. Oh my gosh, we're spending. We're getting some good players because what do fans want? Average fans are sitting there like, man, my team sucks.

We're losing. Let's get some good players in here. You don't know how draft picks are going to turn out. But at least you can see, oh, my God, this guy, he at least was good the last few years. for a different team, he should be great for our team. And so there's this unnecessary or kind of like two eye of optimism when you're looking at guys in free agency thinking, well, what they did on their other teams is going to translate perfectly to what we need in our team. And that generally doesn't happen, especially to the guys that you end up paying top dollar. Now, there are exceptions

to every rule. There's no doubt about that. But by and large, that's what ends up happening. and that's where you get some of these teams that are spending on average $130, $140 million in free agency the last couple of years. The only way that you're spending that extreme because the average in the NFL has been down at $86 million is by getting some of these massive deals for big-name players the tops at their position. Nora, I want to talk about another of Warren's points, but one of the things he talks about is how quickly teams can actually turn around now in free agency. and how many players on the Super Bowl winning teams, where it's Tampa Bay, Kansas City, New England, Philadelphia are in their first contracts either via draft or via free agency. And actually, a lot of the skill guys, especially in Tampa Bay,

were via free agency. You've done a lot of reporting on how teams have turned around you. You did the Buffalo piece. You've done a handful of things on just teams that went from bad to good or good to great. When you look at how teams turn around now, using free agency smartly, as Warren discusses in this piece, using the draft.

What do you think are the core tenants of just building a team right now in 2021? Well, I have a question for Warren that I think is important to this because the answer to your question, Kevin, is that often there's real pain of the salary cap variety and otherwise that has to come before you're able to do that.

Buffalo had that year where they were carrying, I think, 60 million in dead money. Biggest day cap in history. And they just, said we're going to rip the band-aid off. And trust me when I say that it hurt because I've talked to Brandon Bean about this and heard him explain how badly he wanted to find a higher quality quarterback than they were able to find in terms of the backups or at one point they thought they were going to be bridge quarterbacks for Josh Allen because they wanted him to have a

different runway into the NFL than he ended up having. And they couldn't because they didn't have the money for it. So they tried A.J. McCarran and that didn't work out. And then that's how we got to the Nathan Peterman experience, which was really not good newsflash. So the thing that's interesting and it actually looped back to the Saints and I know I'm sort of half kidding about that. But what we're seeing, and again with New Orleans, it's just like, okay, when is it coming? We thought it was this year, is it next year? Is it the year after that? Like when? You have to have these short periods of cleaning out the books, and then you get to remake the roster as you would like to. And so my question for Warren is if we are seeing teams do this more often, and we have, right,

the dolphins did it, the Jaguars did it. That's coinciding with moves made to acquire draft capital, but I don't think that we can ignore what's happening with their finances too that's following this pattern. If you have money to spend, how do you not overpay? Because overpaying kind of defines free agency in a lot of ways, like you just explained. So is it more a matter of doing shorter-term deals or are there ways that teams can try to find actually lower average annual value contracts for guys when they go through one of those years where they've got the money. they don't necessarily have to spend every penny. Like the bills are a good example, right?

They didn't just go, they added offensive line depth. They got Cole Beasley. Like, they weren't fully, fully, fully bawling out. You don't have to do that. But I'm curious what your approach is to spending the money that you do have when you are one of these teams in one of these situations. The one thing that I can say to that is inevitably there are going to be some teams that need to spend. You know, there's a certain floor you've got to spend to. So there are going to be some teams like that.

But at that point, I think what you want to be also keeping your eyes on is the opportunity that exists when you don't cut a player and you let him leave in free agency by signing guys to deals that will allow them to reach the conclusion of that deal and leave in free agency, which gives you an extra compensatory selection. And that will help your team even further. So when you're signing guys to big deals that are four years for a lot of money, you're getting the best guy. You don't really need to use him. You don't know how to use him.

He's not going to be a difference maker. And he end up cutting him before that's over. You're getting nothing out of that. But to your point, you gave a suggestion. Maybe you sign a guy to a shorter term deal. Then you keep him for the life of his contract. He leaves in free agency. Now you can get a comp pick out of that.

So there's not one right perfect solution. free agency is a messy game to begin with, but there are some teams that are figuring out more intelligently than others. And the goal, in my opinion, if you are one of these bad teams and you do have money to spend, you need to set your priorities and figure out your plan very straightforward. What is our goal, not this season, but two to three years from, like where are we headed? If we're not going to do well this season anyways, like where are we trying to get to? And it may be painful and you may go through these seasons where it's terrible and you're not going to have the, as you call it, like the runway for Josh Allen. But the ultimate goal for any of

these teams that's bad is to find a quarterback and win a Super Bowl when he's on his rookie deal. And that's what all of these bad teams should be doing. And if you can't do it this year, figure out how you're going to get in position so that you can do it next year. And you don't need to have a perfect team when the quarterbacks are rookie. As long as you have a team that's going to be headed in the right direction when he's in year two to year three, that that's really the sweet spot for a lot of these teams. Okay. So this is a big question. But when I look at the wins versus free agency spending and I see the bills in the right quadrant, I see the Saints, I see the Browns, I see the Packers. And then obviously these teams that don't spend. And

that's a different category. But who is the best GM in the off season at signing players? If you were to look at a franchise and you say, okay, these are the guys who are the model. Everybody should look at this GM as the model for how to spend money in free agency. Where do you go, Warren? Man, I'm actually curious to hear with Nora's experience talking to some of these guys. But she mentioned a guy in Brandon Bean who has done a great job the last several years. I think it's difficult. You have a guy like a Kevin Cole. who they don't really spend much,

but they seem to have an eye for getting certain players. But it's hard to have this like long-term sustained success. It's easy to be good at like a few strong years and put together a team for a few strong years. I mean, we saw what Howie Roseman did to build that team for the 2017 season for that run to the Super Bowl and how many of the guys that they added that off season were massive difference makers,

which are Nick Foles. and they're number one and number three wide receiver, their number one running back, and then multiple guys on the defensive side of the football. I think Brandon Bean is seeing things really well. It's almost like a guy who's, you know, in the basketball game and in the fourth quarter and you're in a rhythm and you're seeing things really well and you just have a lot of confidence.

He's seeing the board really well right now, in my opinion, and is hot. That's not necessarily to say that he's the best that we have, but he's doing a good job and he's done a very good job the last couple of years in my opinion. Now, just to be clear, like the chiefs and the Ravens and Seahawks are at the bottom of the free agency spending, but obviously they win. So they're in the right quadrant when you look at this too. So there's a bunch of different ways to build a football team.

And obviously, you know, those teams that's success. We're just talking about being aggressive in for agency. Warren, how long should a rebuild take in the worst case scenario? Because one of the interesting things about this is, as I talked with Nora a second ago, is how many of these players on the Super Bowl champions last four? years were in their first contract. I'm of the theory. When you look at a team like the dolphins or you look at a team like the bills, it takes really two or three years. And I think a lot of these GMs, whether they're trying to buy time for their program or whatever it is or they want a

longer contract. A lot of these GMs say, well, you know, it might take into year four or whatever. And sometimes in the worst case scenario, if there's real cap problems, that might be the case. But I think under normal circumstances, it's really only, you're going to start to see signs of progress by year two, really. When you look at kind of the timetable in the modern NFL war, and what do you think? I think progress by year two

and you'll know whether you are really close or are going to ultimately be close by year three. I think year three is really that key year in these rebounds. I don't really care what year one looks like whatsoever. I agree. I truly do not care. I care that we're making progress by year two and that were really close, if not there, by year three.

And because, you know, it's amazing when I looked back at the players that were in, because it really isn't just free agency. It's, you know, what are you doing with trades? What are you doing with draft picks? And I went back and I looked at the seven skill positions plus the quarterback for the last four Super Bowl winning teams. And 23 of those 32 players, which you got eight per team, 23 of 32 were on their first contract, that's 72%. And we're talking quarterback, 75% of them, running back, 75% of them.

Wide receivers, 80% of the wide receivers that were on these Super Bowl winning teams were in their first contract with those teams. And it's not necessarily the first year or the second year, but you've got to have this group of talent that you're able to bring in. And that's why year one, who cares? Year two, you could see, okay, we're close, but we got this hole and we got that hole and you're adding to those holes and trying to patch things up so that by year three and sometimes you're forced too late but by year four you are like at your apex and if you're going to get it done you got the guys and you got enough luck that you're able to get it accomplished Nora is there a team right now that is not good but you think the building blocks kind of like

we were talking about with the dolphins last year where the building blocks are in place for at least a rise next year where you say okay this can make sense because I know this is is a strange thing to say, but I mean, I would say a team like maybe the Washington football team will be in that discussion depending on what they do at quarterback where you say, okay, the building blocks are here, the right people might be in place, the coach is good, there might

be a rise here depending on what they do in the next three weeks in for agency and then obviously in the draft. The Panthers in that discussion as well. Yeah, that's so you just hit it right smack dab on the head. Those are the teams because it's hard to like we don't know what the quarterback

situation is, right? So like the biggest question mark that can exist, exist. But both of those, I trust the infrastructure. I think it's interesting. It's largely coincidental, but I still think it's interesting that both of those teams have invested really heavily on defense through the draft. And those are the cookie cut of places where you get a right at quarterback, you put someone in, and they've got good coaching infrastructure, good people on the personnel side,

and other high quality talent ready to go around them, it's the biggest thing to try to get right. But if you get it right, boom. Like, even with Washington, I mean, look, like, they were in the playoffs. So it's not as though they're that far away in some ways. Like, we were just talking about Taylor Heineke, you know? And with Carolina, I think they lost like eight,

eight games or something ridiculous in the fourth quarter. So now that's with an experienced quarterback and we'll see what happens there. I mean, whatever you think of Teddy, like he still knows what he's doing. So we'll see. I think Carolina is going to be really funny this offseason because they're totally going to be like the hipster team. And whether that is proven right or wrong is going to have to do with that position. But those two teams, I think, are really good candidates for it. And then probably one of the potentially really big spenders will get it right

enough. So that's like, maybe the Jets get it right. Maybe the Jags thing. I don't really, I'm very iffy on the coaching infrastructure, but one of them will get it right enough to make a big leap. Warren, the most fascinating thing you said at the end of your study was you think that there might be super teams as you. You actually afflicted that earlier in the pod as well. If you were to circle a couple of teams, we should be watching. And by super teams, you basically just mean being able to assemble talent because of the cap, because of the bridge jills we're talking about. I talked about this a couple weeks ago, where I said maybe the bucks were in line to be that.

A couple days after that, Bruce Ariens was asked whether he was going to collect those guys and guys who were looking for one-year deals and we'll take less money to play with Tom Brady. And he basically said, I don't know how many guys we're going to be looking at from the outside. They might just want to run it back

with the guys that they had. But if you were to circle a couple of teams, Warren, that could be those super teams where guys are going to want to come and they'll take $2 million less and they'll take a one-year deal and wait for the cap to reset itself. Where are we looking?

I got a couple, but I want to throw into the prior discussion real quick. The Chargers would fall in line to me with a team that could be in line to make that next jump. They differ from Washington and they differ from Carolina in that they have their quarterback. But due to coaching and just bad luck and a variety of other things around them, they obviously didn't have a good season last year. But they've got a new coach, they've got a quarterback who is that franchise guy. these next couple of years, like who cares what they did last year,

they ended up losing some games. That was actually good. Now we got potentially a better coach in there. We got some better picks than we would have gotten. How they just had a great season last year. And now let's try to build this roster, Tom Telesco, try to figure out a way to get the pieces so that by year two, three, particularly three, not so much 2021,

but I think they could take a nice jump this year, but by 2022, that they can take a nice leap to, to be up in that upper echelon of teams. I think that they're capable of that with their quarterback. In terms of your question with regard to a couple of places

that could be looking to construct super teams, I'm going to look at some of the more intelligent GMs out there and the teams that potentially are close that could get it done. I know some of these teams don't necessarily have the most ideal cap situations this offseason,

but, you know, Lamar Jackson's still on his rookie deal. And Eric DeCosta is, a smart GM. And I think that there would be moves that they would go out there and try to make where, look, we've said, what has been one of the biggest knocks? This team doesn't have a number one wide receiver. They don't have a got. Well, we just talked about a couple of good wide receivers out there in free agency,

some fast wide receivers out there in free agency. You also have some nice tight ends out there that you could also bring on board and convince these guys, let's go for a run. You know, let's go for a run. We've been to the playoffs a couple three straight years with Lamar. Um, we, this could be the season. And I think guys, they, they want to win games. They want to go places where they're going to win games. They don't just want to go someplace where they're like, hey, we can give you a decent quarterback. But if you're not going to be able to win games, like what's the

point? So I think they are an interesting team. I also don't necessarily know that this is going to be the case, but Cleveland is a team that, you know, you could, I like Kevin Stefanski a lot. And I think it wouldn't be difficult to convince a couple of guys to go there. And, And particularly on the defensive side of the ball, potentially, and say, like, look, we're just a couple pieces away. Look at the progress we made last season in our first year there. I think the Buffalo Bills are a team that realizes the window that they're in with their quarterback and they're going to have to spend on him soon.

And they could be a team that would be looking to add pieces very quickly. So there's a handful. All those guys are over in the AFC. If I'm looking in the NFC, I mean, We're talking about the Saints having to cut everybody and whatnot. But who knows what? That would be perfect. That would be perfect is if the Saints become the super team after all of this.

If they just add four guys, it doesn't make any sense that they have them. No. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I was playing quarterback in this scenario. Is it Russell Wilson? It's Russell. It's just Sean Watson, Russell Wilson training camp battle. I'll retire.

I will retire. It's difficult to see a team like the pack. really being just from what they've traditionally done to say, look, let's go out there and acquire a bunch of key pieces for one-year deals. You don't necessarily have to like go after some of the best guys, though. You just have to get guys that are going to be good fits that you were lacking last season. I mean, some of these guys are, okay, some of the best GMs and the moves that they can make in free agency as long as they're not overspending are saying, this is where we actually needed a guy like this one who I can get for one year or that guy who I could get for two years.

So the other thing too would be if you're really getting creative here and other teams are trying to slim salary cap down trading. We've seen teams do this where they trade picks for players, right? Like get rid of this pick and get this player instead. And that could be a way that you're going to build up. So he's not a free agent, but you identify a guy that you want on a team that really would like to slim their cap a little bit this season and is building to the future. And maybe we're going to see a little bit more of an aggressive approach from GMs this offseason in that respect as well beyond free agency, but with trades for future picks. Warren Sharp, we loved having you, Norprinciotti. Good to talk as always. When's the next Taylor Swift

episode coming out? Thursday. We're doing fearless. What time? Midnight again? I'm going to stay out. I'm not sure of the answer to that. Sounds like midnight. Sounds like the night. Well, I'll have a listening party. All right. Guys, thank you so much. This has been the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.