The Ringer NFL Show - 'GM Street' — McAdon't Let the Door Hit Ya on the Way Out (Ep. 195)

Episode Date: December 4, 2017

The Ringer's Michael Lombardi and Tate Frazier discuss the end of the Ben McAdoo era in N.Y. (01:00), the Seahawks' win over the Eagles (08:30), the victorious Vikings (15:30), Rob Gronkowski's late hit (20:00), the mediocrity of the AFC West (22:15), and wrap up the show by giving out some awards (44:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is JJ Reddick. You may know me as a basketball player. You may have seen me play during my college career at Duke University or perhaps over the past decade playing in the NBA for the magic, the bucks, the clippers, or the Sixers. Well, today I'm here to tell you about my new show, the JJ Reddick podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. This is where you can find me interviewing athletes like my current teammate, Joelle Embed, as well as in-depth conversations with celebrities like the late-late show host James Corden. The very first episode goes live later this week, so make sure to subscribe to the JJ Reddick podcast wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to GM3 part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I am Tate Frazier, and I'm sitting across from Mr. Michael Lombardi. It is Monday morning. I am used to being here for the school of Lombardi on Sunday nights. I didn't get that last night. We missed each other.

We're here on Monday. We're putting the show up. How are you doing Lombardi? I'm good. Tate Frasier, I'm doing good. I missed you yesterday. I miss watching football with you, but hopefully we'll get back to our normal schedule. We had to give our blessings to Sal and Bill so they could have a studio.

But we're back and everything's good. And we got breaking news. It probably worked out for the better, right? Yeah. I'm sad, though. It's a macadone. I'm sad. Bin McAdoo, the end of the bin Macadoo era in New York after two seasons.

First season, he goes to the playoffs. Second season, not even close to the playoffs. And now he is out after benching Eli Manning this week. Jerry Reese, the general manager, is reportedly also out for the Giants. It's a new regime in New York. Yeah, they're going to start all over again. They have to. They have no choice.

I mean, look, the Giants are a proud franchise. And to the depths that my man, Ben, brought them to. And I think Jerry's paid a price. I mean, they all wanted to get rid of Tom because they wanted to have influence within the building. And they picked this guy who, you know, look, I've been very critical of McAdoo since I've interviewed him. I spent time with them.

I was in a room with them for three hours. And if I thought when I left that room, if anybody thought he was a head coach, I would have been completely shocked by it. And then he became an offensive coordinator. And then he became the head coach at the New York Football Giants, which to me was one of the most room. Nothing in the NFL really shocks me anymore about guys who become heads coach coaches. But what really shocked me was McAdoo being able to have this rise so quickly to get there.

And, you know, unfortunately, you know, and then his personality became such abrasiveness. Like he became this guy that didn't want to, you know, wouldn't let X players in the building. I mean, it's just like nothing was smooth there. I mean, they couldn't wait to get him out of the building, you know. But like I said, I saw this. coming a long time ago. Absolutely. And then obviously we remember when he got hired, I mean, the Eagles make this offer for him. They lose out. The Giants keep them in-house. They move them up from the offensive coordinator position after being there with Coughlin in 14 and 15. Jerry Reese has

pretty much been the constant the whole time over these past few years. And Coughlin goes, Eli gets benched, McAdoo finally goes, Reese goes with him. I mean, they're basically starting from ground zero at this point when you look at the New York football giants. I mean, what's the first move now if you're the Amera family? Well, look, so, you know, a little giant history here. So the Giants had always been historically really bad. Wellington Mara owned the team. They never really could get it fixed, right? So they were all over the place, hire coaches.

So Wellington Mara finally, the league office, Wellington Mara was fighting with his brother, Tim Marriss cousin. I'm not sure what the really, okay. So the league office basically stepped in and said, look, you two guys don't get along. We are going to, you should hire a general manager to run the New York Giants. And so the league office basically hired, forced them to hire George Young. Okay, back in 1979.

And Young became the general manager. And so Young became the general manager with control over the coach. And then he hired the coach. And then George Young hired Ray Perkins. And then George Young hired Bill Parcells. And then George Young hired Ray Hanley. And then he hired Dan Reeves to correct the Ray Hanley. So they've always been a traditional organization where the GM and the personnel people pick the players.

The coach coaches the team. And they've been very good at separating church and state, right? So they've done that. Just need to go back to what their plan is. But now, because they're going to have a harder time alluring a great coach, say they want to hire a Josh McDaniels or somebody like that, they're going to have to find somebody who can get along with Josh or Josh is going to want a little bit like the Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch. So they're going to have to alter their dynamics a little bit, which hasn't changed since 1979. And it's worked. It's won Super Bowl's for them.

It's been successful. So I think John Maris going to have to reevaluate and see who he wants to hire and then decide how he's going to build this organization. He has the foundation how he wants to build it. He just needs to rearrange it. He needs to remodel. And he needs to get the right person at the GM chair that can pick a good coach and can work with that coach. And that's really going to be a challenge.

And the one guy that we do have there is our boy, Ferris Bueller, OBJ, is there. He is the guy that has been promised one of the biggest contracts in football by Jerry Rees. Which is really going to be the hardest part. This is going to be like what fans don't understand is if you're a coach and you want to come into a situation, the Eli thing was going to have to be something. that was handled. But you understood that because Eli was, you knew you needed a quarterback. I know giant fans, some giant fans, some in this building here, think that Eli can still play. Okay, but most people that understand the game completely know that Eli's not going to be the future

of the franchise and no way is he going to win another Super Bowl for you. You need a quarterback, right? So that's pretty much you can handle that. The Odell Beckham contract is going to be really something that now is going to put the organization. You've already said he's going to be the highest pay player, maybe the highest pay player. And he expects that at that point. And he expects it, right? So you've got this guy who you've spoiled and you've kissed his ass for so long, right, that now you're going to have to try, some new coach is going to have to try to hone him in. So say you want to hire somebody from the, say you want the Patriot program in the giant building. You're going to deal with

this problem first, because there's no way, first of all, the Patriots don't have a player that has this kind of pay and all that. So you're going to have to change your model a little bit. It's going to be fascinating to see. Everybody's going to say, oh, yeah, I want to coach Odell. If Odell's involved with the search or if he's asked a question about who should be the coach, then there's real problems with the new organization. That's what I want to see. Is it going to be a decision from the top and have to worry about personnel? Because we've obviously seen Eli, even a guy who's won two Super Bowls. It wasn't about him personally. It was about the organization, or at least that's what it was put out to be. And OBJ has been promised

like he will be a part of that situation. So it would be interesting. If he's not vocal and talking about the giant situation, I mean, it could be something where he's not there. Right. Well, so the three people that got Mcadoodoo, so the two people that got Macadoo was head coaching job where Odell and Pate and Eli, right? And so now McAdoe, Macadone's gone, right? So he's gone. And Reese wanted McAdo because Reese felt like he was tired of being bossed around by Coughlin or having this big kind of image in Coughlin.

And so now it's going to be fascinating to see if they go to Elda. If they do that, I think it's a huge mistake. I think now's the time that John Mara can reflect. He got this guy out of the building, right? So this whole, because look, they had to fire him. They could not send them to another press conference. Like, there's no way they could send him to another press conference and listen to what he was going to say. Like, there's just no way.

He said yesterday, if I was on the outside looking in, I'd feel the same way they feel in reference to the fans. You can't say stuff like that. He's so bad. My question is, like, I said this. Like, I'm not bragging, but like I spent three hours with this guy. There's no way this guy was a head NFL coach. No way. Okay.

And so when I started about talking about them a year ago about, look, I've said this from the beginning. When I grew up, the NFC East was the NFC East, right? It was Landry. It was Parcells. It was Gibbs. It was like, these are Hall of Fame coaches. Now we've got the Clapper. We got Macadone.

We got Doug. Okay, I know he's won 10 games. So that makes him great, right? Nobody figures out why you win a 10, but just he's got 10, right? and then you got, you know, and then you got Jay Gruden, who's an unmade bed, right? Okay. So, like, that ain't the NFC East anymore. And the level of coaching is way down. And the giants fell right into that trap. I mean, you're the New York football giants. They didn't even want to interview Josh McDaniels the last time. Do you realize that? They didn't want to even interview them. They went right to Macadone.

Like, that's how narrow-minded their search was. Like, I'm not saying it works. They basically just hired within. They just basically promoted him. Right. They promoted him because they felt comfortable. Whenever you feel comfortable in anything, you better change. Yeah, you better figure it out. Let's talk about a team that didn't feel comfortable last night in Seattle, and that was the Philadelphia Eagles. You know, it's funny. When you react to the Eagles and Twitter,

it's like they never lose. Like, it's always the refs screwed them up. Unlucky fumble by Carson Wentz. How about the forward lateral? The forward lateral that wasn't challenged. Egregious. It's just, you know, like at some point, look, at some point, I don't understand.

And I know why fans are fans because it's called fanatic, right? But at some point, you have to be a little bit objective. Like, it's not always going to be, this isn't worldwide wrestling. It's not going to just go the way you want it to go, right? And like last night, I thought it was a perfect example of a really good defensive coach who understood what the Eagles were trying to accomplish. He made them try to play a little bit left-handed. The Eagles really didn't execute people say, well, you know, had a guy wide open.

He missed him. The reason he missed him because he was rushed. Like, there's reasons for everything that happened. It isn't just unfortunate, right? Like, don't put it in the unfortunate category, is my point. And I think last night, Russell Wilson was really good. He was the Russell Wilson that we always expected him to be. He's making all these magical plays that we just don't see that much, you know, from anyone else.

But I thought they blocked pretty good. I thought, you know, Seattle gets a bunch of crap for their offensive line. And I'm sitting there watching the game. You know, Dwayne Brown's a first round pick, Luke Jockel, not that he's any good. He's a second round pick. Mitch, there's centers a high round pick. I mean, the right guard is a third round pick. The right tackles at least a second round pick.

So, I mean, they've got all these high picks in their first. They should be able to block somebody, right? Well, they got rid of Max Unger. I watched him a lot yesterday with the Saints, and I was like... Max Unger's good. Yeah, I was like, the Seahawks missed this guy. I can't believe they traded him for Jimmy Graham, and then last night the offensive line played well.

And, you know, I walked all that back. But I want to talk about the defensive line for the Seahawks. I mean, they pressured Carson Wentz. We talked about that was the difference with their team. If the back end isn't there with the Legion of Boom, those guys up front, Michael Bennett, Michael Bennett had a great game last night. He was talking to Carson Wins quite a bit.

They look like the Seahawks of Old up front a little bit. They did. They played, I mean, that's who they are. And I'm not sure how good the Eagles' offensive line is. I know that you lose a starting left tackle. It's hard to overcome. And I think they worked them on that side. And look, once the Eagles weren't in a rhythm in the running game

and they couldn't do all those ROPs, you know, run pass options, RPO's. So, you know, they couldn't do that. Then it became really problematic for them. But look, they gained a bunch of yards. They were good on third down. To me, the classic example of the Eagles was third and 12. Wentz is almost sacked. He's falling to the ground.

He makes this incredible throw. I mean, I don't know if you could, like, this is on par with Aaron Rogers' throw in the playoff game against the Packers. Like, how does he even know the guy's open? And then he comes back. They almost, on third and 13, they almost have him sacked again. And he makes the touchdown pass. I mean, to me, that right there, that drive right there is who the Eagles are offensively. That's what they do.

They make these incredible plays on third and long, and Wince is remarkable at doing it. He really is. And he still looks like an MVP to me. I know that after last night, a lot of people were trying to take that away from him. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, they've got 10 wins. They're a good team. Their defense is really good.

And they make plays on offense. I mean, that's kind of what they do. They make certain plays. They wouldn't be the third most third and six team in the league, right? If they were consistently making, like, if they were like a Canadian, like the Patriots are like 23rd and third and sixes. Like they don't get out. they don't get into a lot of them because they usually are moving the ball before that. So look, I think the guy's the MVP of the league because I think if you took him away from that team and that offense and then the offensive line, I mean, how many sacks you think the Eagles would have if Wenz couldn't just magically.

Yeah, just like say, you're not tackling. Yes, absolutely. They're going south this week. They're going to take on the Rams at the Rams. We're going to see what they're really about on this West Coast trip. I think this is really going to be an interesting point here because Seattle played the Rams and they played them really well. Seattle, I mean, don't underestimate, you know, two December football is about pad level. It's about fundamentals. It's also about coaches, right? So really good coaches make

you adjust. Really good coaches figure out how to make you play left-handed on defense. Really good coaches attack your weaknesses. This is what it's about. And when you get good games, I mean, the games against teams that are out of it, you know, they'll give it an effort for the first three quarter, first quarter or so. But once they know they're not, they have no playoff. I mean, You can't evaluate anybody in those situations. These kind of games will be fascinating. And I think the Eagles coming down here with the week off, they'll bond the team. And I think this RAM team is really good.

They play together. And I think that'll be another playoff game. Yeah, before we move on, speaking of coaching, I have to ask. I mean, we had this forward lateral play. Russell Wilson's coming down. He's on the 47-yard line. He makes the pitch. It gets caught it around the 48-yard line.

When you look at the replay review, Al Michaels, Chris Collinsworth, they're both saying. Al's an expert on Booth Reviews. I mean, they should put Al up. I mean, like, you know, it's really Fox has, Fox has, I don't know why NBC doesn't just have an official. Like, everybody wants an official now. I mean, now that we've seen Blandino and we've seen Pereira, that's really valuable. We need somebody there. You know, and it's not Chris Collinsworth because Chris is like, he's all over the place, you know.

So, I mean, they need somebody. I mean, I think that would be real. I mean, they have all these people on the pregame. Maybe they'll get a PFF official up there. That's probably what they'll do. I mean, they have all these people on. I mean, they got Florio at halftime. I mean, nobody's telling me anything.

Put somebody in there that could tell me something. I agree. I mean, I think that problem there was, I don't understand why Peterson challenged the spot on fourth and inches. Like, he was going to sneak it. Like, to me, that's the false duality right there. Was it a right spot or not? When he should have been thinking, look, I'm going for it on fourth and one anyway.

It doesn't really matter if it's at half an inch. I'm sneak it. I'm perfect on sneak it. I'm going to go for it, right? Sometimes when you do that too, you also help the defense because they know what they have to do? It's like you almost set the stage more. But he lost that challenge.

So now he's gunshot and make another challenge, right? So that's why he didn't challenge the lateral. I mean, that's why he didn't really, because I think the first challenge kept him like, I lost it. I don't think I can win this one. And really who could have. And then what made it unbelievable is the Seattle ran a trick play, the next play.

Yeah. Which was like, you know, instantaneous. I thought Seattle was really well coached last night. I really thought, I know they have a lot, they have penalties. That's kind of who Seattle's always been. I thought they were really well coached. I think Wilson made that pitch. You know, when he's always running down field,

he does the pump fake and somehow people, you know, defenders buy it, they jump up in the air, even though he's like 10 yards down the field. I think by making that pitch, he keeps them honest. Because now they're like, he might make a pitch. I don't know. It was crazy. I mean, his instincts to play the position are just truly remarkable.

Yeah, it's natural. It's play ground. Yeah. I mean, there's some of those things that he can't even tell you why he did them. Yeah. Just like Wence. I mean, I don't think Wins can tell you why he did some of the things he did. look, I think that was a great game. It was a perfect game for the Eagles. They needed a game that's going to show them what it's like against playoff coaching and playoff atmosphere.

And speaking of playoff games and atmospheres, we had the Minnesota Vikings going down to the Atlanta Falcons. It was a big game. We're going to see if Case Keenum can go and take his show on the road and keep this thing rolling. Vikings were four and one on the road going into this game. They get another win. 14 to 9. It was a really defensive game. Really in the middle of the field between the 20s. Case Keenom has a great game, throws two touchdowns. the win, 14 to 9. And perfect example to me. I mean, look, Mike Zimmer has played the Rams. He's played the Falcons and he's basically shut them both down, right? I mean, he's a really good defensive coach. And I know these teams that are going to be looking for head coaches now, when you can get a really good defense coach to be your head coach, your team has a certain degree of toughness and they can win on the road. I'm not saying offensive coaches aren't tough, but typically you get a

really tough coach. I think, you know, this is a remarkable job by him. He made them play left-handed. Sarkeesia and the offense coordinator for Atlanta really didn't have an answer. Like really, this was a battle of two chess players here and clearly Zimmer was the better chess player. He could maneuver his pieces ahead of what Sarkisian wanted to do. He was always a step behind. And then I think Pat Shermer has probably done as good a job as anybody.

I talk about it on the podcast all the time. I mean, you know, he's got five incompletions, Case Keenum. I mean, everybody keeps waiting for Case Keenum to break down. But Case Keenum's a good player. I mean, Case Keenham's playing better than Bradford. played when Bradford was playing. I'm like I don't understand why it's so hard for people to accept that. It's very strange. I think people just, I've already believed and bought into the fact that

Case Keenum is not a starting quarterback, so that's where they stand on it. I saw a lot of people comparing him to Jeff Garcia yesterday, which I don't know how great of a comparison it is, but I guess people need to have like some sort of, yeah, they got a justify. A late in life quarterback can do something like this. Yeah, they got a justify it. I think, you know, look, it's not a real complicated thing. Minnesota is really good on defense. Okay, their defensive front can wear you down, right? They can wear it. They put pressure on you. They make you play. This isn't like Philadelphia.

Okay, we're just unfortunate. We just miss. No, when you get rushed a little bit, you're going to miss some throws. I mean, this is a football is a game of, you know, it's like in basketball. If you're just, if you take a shot and you're wide open, okay, you're going to hit it, right? But if you're a rush, your shot, or you feel somebody coming, you might miss it. Same thing in football. And I think that's what Minnesota does a really good job of game planning and taking away what you do.

They made the Rams play left-handed. They made the Rams play left-handed. They did it on the road. They're tough. I mean, Mary can run the football effectively. They only threw five incompletions in the game. They're good in the kicking game. They're good on offense.

They're good on defense. I mean, they're a really good football team. Now, it's going to take a good coach and a good scheme to beat them. And if they play at home, it's really going to favor them. Absolutely. I will say this. Devante Freeman, the guy, he just can't get the carries. For whatever reason, Sarkisian doesn't want to give them the carries.

I think they just don't really know. I think this is part of being a young... I mean, first of all, remember, Sarkeesian has never called plays in the NFL before. I mean, this is his first time. I mean, he's really never understood, Like, like, there's, this is what happens in the league. There's guys that run beaters.

They're called beater coaches, okay? So if you run this scheme, then I'm going to run these plays that beat that coverage, right? It's called beaters, right? Well, the good coaches like Zimmer and like Carol, what they do is they know you're going to run the beaters against their members. So they bait you into it? They bait you into it, but they also have adjustments within their coverages so they take away what your beater plays are. So if you go to Seattle, let's say, and everybody thinks Seattle plays man to man and They don't. I play a lot of cover three. But they play cover three in a way where it is becomes a man. And if you can't figure out how to end up with another man on one side of the formation or not, okay, to replace it, then Pete's going to eat up all those beaters you want to run against them because he's seen every combination that you can throw against them, right? So he's got it all down.

It's like stock footage at that point. Exactly. So he runs. So you have to run a play that they think you're trying to run a beater, but you're attacking the adjustments within the coverage. That's what Sarkesian hasn't been able to do in the run game. He can't attack the adjustments to what Zimmer wants to do. So when Zimmer spikes or when Zimmer, like if you watch the RAM game, every time the Rams love to run boot legs, right? They love to run those bootlegs. But against Minnesota, Zimmer had a hang player always playing for the boot, right? Because he knew this is what's going to happen.

So it's just really smart chess playing. And so what you see now is the level of chess. And I think that Zimmer really taught Sarkisian something last. yesterday. I think that's really was the difference in the game. Yep. Mike Zimmer, spying the bootleg. What a magician. He's really good. Next up, we have the Grancowski play, which is a lot of backlash from this. Grancowski comes back, dives at a defender late in the play after he thought he was held

on the play. You know, obviously this is caused quite a stir around the league. You know, people were upset that they were saying he was a kid that made a bad mistake. He's 28 years old, obviously. But what do you think about this? I mean, Gronk obviously does this blatantly. We know it was a cheap shot. And the kid got a concussion.

And the kid got a concussion. Obviously, thank God it wasn't worse. Yeah, no, I think God's got to go for it. I mean, Gronk did what an unlike Patriot maneuver. He let his emotions get the best of them. It was because of, I mean, look, they're banging him around. He got called for an offensive pass interference early in the game, which was really a BS call. I mean, he really, look, they can't officiate.

It was frustration, yeah. Yeah. Not justifying what he did, because what he did was he violated a code of conduct within the Patriot organization, which is we're not going to really put ourselves in front of the team. team. He put himself in front of the team, and that deserves to be a suspension from the team, but the team can't do that based on the collective bargaining agreement. The league should suspend him because that was a malicious act that was planned. It wasn't like a reactionary, like somebody hit you and I hit you back. He got past interference he felt like, and then he retaliated on a really helpless defender. I think he should get suspended for a week. I think there's

no doubt about that. I think it was selfish and it was frustrated, but to blame it on just being frustrated, lets him off the hook. Don't let them off the hook. That was bad. And I think what Belichick said was true, it's bullshit. Yeah, he called a BS. And Tredavius White, I think, he goes down with concussion. He seems like, I mean, most people are expecting a suspension. We haven't heard anything yet. It should just be a game, you would think, right? Yeah, he's only had one. He's never had an offense before. So, I mean, it has to be a game. And then they have Pittsburgh. They play Monday night against Miami, and then they go in to play Pittsburgh. So the Miami game, Miami played Denver last week. That really was a bad game. I mean, it was so

bad I enjoyed watching it. Like, I don't want to get off on a side track here, but that was so bad. Jay Cutler was the offense for the Broncos and the doffins. I mean, the only way that Broncos could score is like, all I can say this to you. If you're a Bronco fan, like, this is the worst I've ever, like, you can bitch about the Tim Tebow era in Denver. You can bitch about Josh McDaniel era in Denver. You can bitch about all that era. Okay. You're full of crap. This is the bottom of the Denver Broncos franchise as I've ever seen it in my 35 year career in the NFL. Like, I've never seen it. Like, talk about a guy who's in way over his head. Simeon.

Well, Simeon's in over his head, but the guy's sitting on the sideline, Vance Joseph's in over his head too. I mean, he has no control over the team. The team, this is really, the only thing that can happen to save the Broncos, John always should just put his coaching hat on and go on the sideline, just coach the team, because that's what he wants to do, so he should just do it. But that was a painful game to watch. I mean, Denver's not even good on defense anymore.

You think Denver? Denver's had probably one of the worst off seasons in the history of football, right? Start with letting Kubiak goes, hiring a defensive coach when your offense. isn't very good. Lose Wade Phillips. Lose Wade Phillips. I think that firing of Mike McCoy's really helped their franchise out, hasn't it? Poor Mike McCoy.

Poor Mike, he takes the beat for it. I mean, you know, I think it's all going to be one and done. But, you know, I mean, that was. The best offensive play that the Broncos made yesterday was Trevor Simmy and knocking the ball out of bounds for a safety instead of a touchdown. It's like, to me, you've got to sit there. Like, people say, well, you got to give people time, continuity. If you're lost, you can't be making great time.

Like, if you're going in a wrong direction, it doesn't matter how fast you're going, right? Like, that's really bad. I think you have to look at this objectively and say, look, we don't have, we got to get this fixed. And it's not just the players that are bad. It's pretty much everything. And you're going to get to the point where Von Miller,

a superstar, blue-chip guy is going to come up to the front office and say, hey, either you figure this thing out or I got to get out of here. Yeah, that's right. That's what's going to happen. Yep. Let's talk about another team going in the wrong direction, and that is the Kansas City Chiefs. They start the game out hot in New York yesterday.

We got Travis Kelsey with two touchdowns. They take a 14-0-0 lead. Looks like the Chiefs are back and rolling. And somehow the Jets bounced back. They never quit and the Jets get a big win. The Giants and the Jets both have been the Chiefs this year. So congrats to them. Look, I think Josh McCowne was sensational in the game.

I mean, the Jets were in more third and aides. They tried to run the football against them. I really couldn't do it that successfully. And they were in a lot of third and sevens, third and six. and then Josh McCowan made some unbelievable plays under pressure. He ran the ball with his feet. I mean, the Jets' offense was explosive, and they took it right to the Chiefs.

And if the Chiefs make the playoffs, they really should have their playoff ticket revoked because their defense is horrendous. I mean, their defense is horrendous. Marcus Peters, look, Andy has made this decision when he went to Kansas City to collect some of these guys that are, I would say, marginal character guys, okay? And he's gotten away with it, right?

Like so, you know, we know the Tyree Kill situation, you know, we know all that. I mean, there's a lot of guys on that team that people don't know about. I mean, David Irving was on that team at one time and they let him go because of some character issues. He's now on Dallas. But they've been the home for wayward children there. Let's put it politely. And when you do that, you've got to be able to control them and be able to handle it. And what I've seen out of Kansas City since, you know, go back to the Raider incident when they had the big fight in midfield.

Marshawn Lynch, you know, and Marcus Peters was a lot of. involved in that one and talking about the guy should get suspended. I mean, Marcus Peter should get suspended. Yeah, Marcus Peters threw the flag in the crowd yesterday. You know, and so first time I've ever seen that. First time I've ever seen it either. I mean, look, I just think to me their defense isn't very good. And then they signed Dorel Revis, which really... It was sad. I love Revis Island. It was, you know, some of the great years, 2008, 2010 run. It was sad to see him yesterday on the outside.

Well, they had to take him off the field because if he... No, they pulled him once they got him inside the tent. I mean, they couldn't have him out there. Once they got him anywhere on the head, at second half he didn't play because there's like, there's no way we can play him. Like at some point tomorrow, they're going to release him. If they put him on the field, they might as well put him in a different color jersey because the team's going after him every week, right? Like, it's ridiculous.

Like that, like that's an act of desperation like I've never seen before. So, I mean, Revis, I tweeted out yesterday, the Jets cut Revis once and basically the way they played against them going to get him cut again because it's the truth. But I thought the Jets played really well, but Kansas City is not a playoff team. You can't be that bad on defense and be a playoff team. Alex Smith did everybody want to bench Alex Smith, right? What do we talk about last week? Everybody wants to bench Alex Smith?

Everyone wants Mahomes to come in. Was Mahomes going to score more than 30? I mean, the Jets controlled the ball for so long that the chiefs couldn't do anything. They scored one. They were scrambling every time they got the ball back. They got one play and score, one play and score. I mean, heck, the last, when they scored it, when they even gave up the two-point play at the end of the game,

and then Tyree Kiel somehow gets wide open on the two-minute drill, and then they can't put it in the end zone. So, look, I think that's a great win for the Jets, but, you know, the Chiefs are really bad. I don't know who's a good team in the West. I really don't. I mean, like, you take the Raiders. Like, the Raiders have played the last two weeks, right? So they played Trevor Simeon, they played Paxton Lynch, and then they come back and play, they play Gino Smith.

Okay. I mean, it's like John Pagano's Cosmo Kramer. I mean, he just gets lucky, right? Yeah. And it was a tough game. The Giants really showed, you know. So now the Raiders have won two in a row. right and everybody thinks oh god we're back the raiders are horrible the raiders are flat out horrible

like they're struggling to beat they're struggling to beat gino speaking of gino what's you think of gino's comments on on rex after the game what he called him a coward yeah i don't know i don't know what gino's doing i mean what's the point gino i guess he wants to control the whole media i like that he wants to be a headline in new york like more power to you gino keep it up you've had a long run longer than i thought you ever could but i don't know like what's that even about i thought the play of the game, really. I mean, it's just so typical a macadone. I mean, first of all, what people don't understand is the Giants fundamentally, their protections are so poor. Okay, they're blackboard protections. So what that means is they look good on the blackboard, right? But they don't execute

on the field, right? So they're unsound. I talk to a coach who's no longer a head coach in the league who spent 20 minutes bitching to me about the Giants protections. Like it just, and this is not a coach who's been out of the league for 50 years who doesn't understand the protections, right? So this is like somebody really contemporary knows it. And it's like, it's so bad. Was it Rex Ryan? No, it was not Rex. That was not Rex. I don't get any information from Rex. Trust me on that. Anyway, so, anyway, so, you know, it's like, there's so unsound. So in the game, they make a play, the Raiders are bad. They make a play. They block a punt, right? And they get the ball right there on the seven-yard line. And you think, okay, here we go, we can turn it around. But Macadone,

being Macadone, right? You know, and his, unsound protections that work that he learned in Green Bay. But they work in Green Bay because Aaron Rogers... You have a sound quarterback. Yeah, Aaron Rogers fixes everything, right? Yeah. So, okay. But you take those protections and put them on Broadway that you're going to be shut down in a week.

You're going to be on Front Street. Yeah, you're going to be out, right? So they got Khalil Mack on their right tackle, the backup right tackle, and they block them like he, like on a blackboard, you got him, right? No, that's Khalil fucking Mac over there, right? You can't block him. Can we put a running back over there to chip him at least? You can't block him.

Like there's like six players in the league that maybe could block her, right? And that guy ain't one of them, right? So, but of course, naturally they put nobody over there, right? Macadol. It looks good on a blackboard. And then he sacks strip fumble and they don't get any points. He didn't just strip fumble. He just took the ball.

He just took it. He took them over. Taking candy from a baby. It was tough. Well, the Raiders, the Chiefs, and the charters are all six and six right now. Chargers are struggling to beat the brownies, too. I watched all that game. Well, Josh Gordon.

Welcome back. I can't believe he's back in the league. And people like, well, you know, you wanted to trade him, Lombardi. Yeah, that would have been a smart move for us to trade him because he's only been out of football for four freaking years, right? Is he a talent? Yeah, he's a great talent. I mean, look, he's tremendous, right?

I mean, but the guy had, you know, the guy has some issues off the field. I hope he can stay clean. But, I mean, that game, everybody said, well, you know, he's going to be a good play in fantasy, you know, they're going to have a lot of plays for him. Kaiser's still the quarterback. Yeah, Kaiser missed him on two. He had two touchdowns where he just completely beat the defense. and Kaiser under threw them by four or five yards.

It's so bad. I mean, the charges were really lucky to win the game. I mean, they're driving down the field, right? They got a chance to tie it up, and of course they turn it over, and then they got a chance to come back. I mean, I don't know what to make of the charge. Chargers move the ball. I mean, you look at Rivers' numbers. They were unbelievable, right?

But, you know, they didn't have enough. They just scored like 19 points. You think they would have scored more. It's going to be interesting this week. I think the brownies and the Packers, you know, that's going to be, I don't know how the Packers really beat them. I really don't. I don't know.

Who's the better running quarterback between those two? It's going to be Kaiser and Hunley just running for their lives. I don't know. I mean, Hunley's so bad. Like, I don't know how they're going to beat them. They both do the same thing. They just run. I mean, it was totally fine.

You watched the buck game. I mean, that's a whole, I mean, how good is James Winston? That should be a whole topic. We should write a novel. We should write a book on this. How good is he? Like, how good is Mariota and Winston? Let me tell you this.

When James Winston was five yards down the field and he threw a touchdown pass and started to celebrate and like he scored a touchdown and didn't think it was going to be an illegal forward pass? I just couldn't believe it. And then the announcers, too, they caught it. They're like, what a great play by James. He is five yards down the field. You know, one of the greatest inventions of all time for me.

I don't know about for you. I'm an old man. But for me, the greatest invention of all times is the mute button. The greatest invention of all time is the mute button. Like, I heard an announcer say yesterday, the chargers were in three by one, the charges were in three by one, which is the, the, the universal formation in football today. It's three receivers to a side with your best receiver away from it

or your best receiver in the slot and somebody else. Because the defense now has to declare. If you put your best receiver in the slot in the three by one, it's hard to double them in there, right? So it's hard to get a lot of the – and if you put them away, it declares the coverage. So it's really easy for the quarterback. So most of the time, you'll see teams now everybody's in a three-by-one formation.

So – which is like if you're just paying attention to any football at all, like this is – and if you understand why you're – people like don't just look at the formation and say you know they're in this formation take a step further ask the question why are they doing this there's a reason behind this formation and i'm explaining it to you okay it's easy for the quarterback to read the coverage you can isolate your best receiver but okay fine this guy they say and this is when i hit the mute button they say well you know the charges are in this i think they're going to run a sprint out pass no they're not i'm screaming a milly no they're not going to run a sprint like this is like completely and of course

they throw a touchdown pass to keen and owen who lined up in the sling lot and he has a little move and they can't get a double on them because they got three receivers over there. It's like at some point you just say the mute button's your friend and you just hit it. Do you hit the mute button often? I try to. I don't have the nerve. I sometimes like to listen, you know, I needed to yesterday when they said Deshaun Kaiser was the top three rushing quarterback in the NFL. Might be statistically, but not actually. It's so bad. I mean, it's so bad. Anyway, all right, final performance of week 13 that jumped out to you, Lombardi. In the words of Joe Staley, he said, we've got a quarterback, huh?

I think the guy's great. Look, I know Lombardi, you're just a patriot lover, you know. It's just like, look, I watch this guy practice, okay? I've seen this guy. When I saw him on the field on Sunday, the guy's great. I'm just telling you, like, oh, don't overreact. No, the guy's really a good quarterback. The guy's going to be, he's better than Kirk Cousins, okay?

Just get it through your head, San Francisco. He's better than Kirk Cousins. He can do everything you want. He's going to make every throw you want. He's got great leadership. He can take. handle the team. He had no skill around them, really. I mean, to be honest, I mean,

look, they're not trying to win games. I know they don't want to say that, but. They definitely have that, they definitely have that analytical movement within their building that they're trying to have a higher draft pick, and yad, yada, yada. But look, they got a quarterback. They got a quarterback. The guy's going to be a really good

quarterback. He's going to be one of the best quarterbacks in the league. He's going to be on Sunday night football. He's going to be dancing with Kerry Underwood. I mean, he's a really good player. Okay. And there's no doubt about it. You're not going to do better than Jimmy with Kirk Cousins and then have to pay Kirk Cousins. And if you do that, that's really being selfish and indulgent on your part because you just want a guy you know. You know this guy.

To me, I think the 49ers are sitting there now probably said, oh, wow, he played so good. Somebody will give us a top pick for him. Sure they will. But the question you have to ask yourself, if you're the 49ers, is he better than Kirk Cousins or is Kirk Cousins better than him? And you have so much subject, you have so much allegiance to Kirk that you're going to narrow your ability to make that accurate decision. I'm telling you from an outsider looking in, it's not close. So if you're a GM, I mean, you're calling the 49ers, and you're just asking, like, what's the value for Garaplo?

Obviously, if they don't want him and you can see this talent, I mean, he just looks composed and ready to go. He's 25 years old. I mean, it was unbelievable. I mean, he's ready to go. He's composed. He banged it through the ball, hit the strikes. I mean, look, he did everything.

If Andy Dalton played like that, like he said, well, you beat the Bears. I mean, the Bears are a decent team at home. I mean, look, look, you know, the Carolina Panthers. They beat the Panthers in home, yeah. I mean, you know, look, I'm not saying it's against great competition. Don't get me wrong. But he made every throw he had to make. He brought the team down the field.

When they needed a drive for him to make a drive, I thought he was great. He had great rhythm. His feet are tied to his arm is tied to his feet, which is really important. And he was able to make all those throws. I thought he was great. I think they have a quarterback. I think everybody on that field. That's going to be the interesting thing now.

The players know it, right? The players know it. I mean, C.J. Bethard knows it. Everybody knows it, right? And so now you're going to have to sell the fact that we're going to go out and pay Kirk Cousins $35 million a year when we already have a quarterback. To me, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And you can see it in the postgame quotes. Carlos Hyde said he looked like a young Tom Brady to him.

Obviously, I said what Staley said about him, about him having a quarterback. Once that's already out there and their players know that, if you pull a guy out from that situation, that's going to cause him. I mean, look, they can just build, now you can build around the team. I mean, really, I mean, to me, that had to be the greatest flight home for Kyle Shanhan ever. Because now you can close your eyes, take a nap on the plane going home and know we got a quarter. for the next 10 years. Like, there's nothing more comfortable. The worst feeling in football is driving to the stadium knowing you don't have a quarterback.

You're driving to the game on Sunday in the afternoon and you don't have a quarterback. And you're trying to figure out how you're going to win this game. When you have one, when I was in New England and you're driving to the stadium in the morning, you know, you got Tom Brady. You know you're going to be, the game's never going to get away from you. You're going to have a chance to win no matter who you're playing, no matter how bad your team might be in some other areas, you're going to chance to win. When you don't have one, you're sitting there saying, oh, my God. I don't know if we can do this. Can this guy play good? To me, that's a great feeling.

Yep. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and we're going to guess the narrative for the week. I'm Mallory Rubin, deputy editor of Theringer.com. Joining me today. Now that he's finished gazing upon the Porzing God himself in his care of magical creatures class, it's Ringer staff writer and your maister, Jason Concepcion. And we're here on edge and... business. Is it agent? It's agent to tell you about binge mode weekly, our triumphant return to our true home, our true dragonstone, your earbuds. We are back! Yeah! On binge mode weekly, Jason and I will be

taken our trademark deep dive into the topics that are occupying our minds and hearts, the events of the moment. Love the scholarly expertise and accessibility of binge mode Game of Thrones. Then you'll love Binge mode weekly, where we'll touch on everything from our favorite books and movies, to the shows that are obsessing us at a given moment, to the sporting events, captivating us from week to week. Binge mode weekly starts this Thursday and every Thursday thereafter on the same feed as Binge Mode Game of Thrones. Oh, Thursday.

And, do, dun, da. Dun, dun, da. Give you that haggard-sized drum roll. Stay tuned for Binge mode Harry Potter in spring 2018. Accio Binge mode. Protect Hedwig. Jason, I have some. Very distressing news for you.

All right, Lombardi, we're going to do one of our favorite segments, guests and narratives. And first up, I mean, it's pretty obvious what the narrative is going to be. Who is going to be the coach of the New York Football Giants? You know, I think it's going to start who's going to be the GM first. You know, the Giants have always, like I said earlier in the podcast, they're a traditional organization. They always go GM's coaching. It's going to be interesting to see what John Meyer's answer to that question is going to be. I think, you know, this is not an appealing job from the standpoint.

There's a lot of work to do here in New York. I mean, I know they have a good defense, but it's a really high-price defense, and those cap numbers of those defensive players are going up. I mean, JPP, they're all going to start going up, so it's going to limit what you can do. I think it's going to be fascinating to see which direction they go. They've got to hire the right general manager who understands. Look, the giant system, as I said earlier, has been in place since 79. You've got to know the giant system.

Their grading system, how they evaluate. They're a size speed team from big school. I mean, there's a philosophy that's been imbred into the organization that goes back to George Young. That spread from when Belichick went to Cleveland. It came with him a little bit to Cleveland. And it's a little bit with them in New England, maybe not to the dramatic degree. I think you'll see, you know, Scott Pioly, could he be the general manager? You know, it's going to be one of those kind of names from people all over.

That's what I was going to say. I mean, do you think it's going to be more of a big name in the front office and then it's sort of a under the radar head coach? No, it shouldn't be. It should be really, it should be the best coach they could fire. they should marry it up. I mean, they should get a coach that's comfortable with a guy. Because look, one thing what's proven in Seattle has been proven in the way, I mean, you got to work hand in hand with the coach. And the coach has to be the focus point. You know, it can't be in the old days when the GM would always talk about that. That doesn't work anymore.

I think we see it in Denver. I mean, I'm critical of John Elway. You know, nobody can be critical of John Elway because he went to the Super Bowl. He's a Hall of Fame player. But when you just evaluate his career, other than the Manning signing, which, you know, I mean, Millie could have signed Manning. I mean, let's be real honest. here. So, I mean, what have we done? I mean, I know they won a Super Bowl. They want a Super Bowl because they had a great defense in Manning. So I think you have to kind of like take yourself out of it and say the coach needs to be the focal point. And it's going to be interesting to see in this climate, in this era, who they hire as a head coach. Do they hire, do they go and

hire Brian Kelly at Notre Dame? Do they go hire a college coach who knows how to build a program who could come in and learn the craft? It would be fascinated to see what the Giants do because it's a marquee job, but it's not a marquee situation. Could it even go somewhere like Jim Schwartz, who's just had a great year in the NFC East and just give him that defense and say, we'll win that way and we'll figure this thing out? It would be a smart move to do.

I mean, it would be a smart move to do. I mean, Jim's going to get a, Jim should get one. I mean, he should get one because he knows, because if you want to model your team after a certain style, that would be, you know, he could. I mean, he's done a great job with their defense. He understands how to manage the game. He understands how to be a head coach.

I think there's so much, people say, well, he's a retread. I think there's so much to become a head coach that it's a difficult job. There's some guys that just can't reach that level. Like, I don't think McAdoos stint as the giant head coach is going to prove himself out to become another head coach. Like, I just don't think he's head coaching material, period, okay? But there's some guys that have head coaching material in them

that just had bad situations and they can't overcome it. And I think Schwartz did overcome it in Detroit. It took an 0-16 team. They made the playoffs. And then the front office ran them out of there. And now that front office isn't even there anymore. So it's got to be a mutual agreement between the coach and the general manager. That's the only way this thing works in the NFL.

Yep. Another narrative that I have, Russell Wilson as the MVP. I feel like a lot of people jumped on that train after his big performance last night. He's averaging more yards than he has any time in his career, 271 yards a game. 26 touchdown, only eight interceptions so far. He's had the big moments. I just think it's crazy that we've completely jumped off just because he knocked off the proverbial frontrunner, Carson Wins. Now he becomes.

It's like the old school, like college football before there was a big. DCS system. You know, if you beat the best team, then you are the best team. It's like that's like that with Russell Wilson. Well, it would be like Ohio State thinking they should be in the final four if they get killed by Iowa. Like, I mean, come on, really, seriously. I mean, Jackson's right. I mean, SC. I mean, SC belongs in there just as much as they do. They had two losses too. But I agree with you. I think, look, he's the MVP of Seattle's team. There's no doubt about it, right? I mean, without him, what would they do? But that's most great quarterbacks.

Like, I think, you know, I think Carson Wentz didn't take a step anywhere. I think last night proved that he's the MVP of the league because without those incredible plays on third down, where would the Eagles really be? and they've played a soft schedule. That's not sugar-coded here. I mean, what quarterbacks have that? They haven't played anybody. They haven't played a tough game because they've played a lot of bad teams, San Francisco, Denver, Chicago.

I mean, you can't control who you play, but if they're not any good, you've got to at least acknowledge they're not great teams. I think Wynce is still the MVP. I think Russell Wilson is the MVP of his team by far. Without them, I don't know what they would do. But I don't know if being in second place in the NFC West deserves you the most valuable player. Yeah, it's very strange how I completely flipped last night. Last one, Grankowski, right?

That's going to be a big one this week. That's going to be, you know, because if the league doesn't suspend them for a game, it's going to be because there's collusion with the Patriots. They will never take anything up on the Patriots. Look, I think that's pretty clear. I mean, the Patriots don't even think what he did was right. End of story. As soon as Belichick came out and said it was BS.

He pretty much knew where they stood. And he wasn't saying it because he felt like he was just trying to get, no. I mean, he truly means it. Like, that's just not how the Patriots should play football. Well, we were just saying like a smart player in that situation. If you get held by a guy, you find within the context of a game how to let him know how you feel about that. You don't do it that blatantly. And obviously it's a cheap shot anyway after a play. No doubt.

Let's go to some awards, one of our favorite parts of the week. First up, we have the Fred Palermo Award. Uncle Fred. And that's going to go to the Minnesota Vikings, correct? Yeah, I think, look, what was Atlanta? One for 10 on third down? I mean, just Mike Zimmer just understands how to make teams play left-handed. And I know it sounds really easy, right?

And this chapter of the book that I've written just written about defense is you have to understand how to make a team play left hand. Not that you take away what they do. You take away what their options are once you take away what they do. You take away A and take away B. And now all of a sudden they really don't know how to play. And I think it's really smart how he does it. I think Mike Zimmer's an outstanding coach. A lot of people in the league said he could never be a head coach.

He was just a defense coordinator. Look, the guy's a tough guy. He knows what he wants on defense. He understands that the players like him. Yeah, to me, he paid his dues to be a head coach. I'm happy for Mike Zimmer. I love Mike Zimmer. I think Pat Schumer's done a great job for him on offense.

I think Pat Schumer deserves to have another chance to be a head coach. Because I think Pat Schumer has learned from Mike Zimmer how to be a head coach. I think it'll benefit. But I do like their whole game plan. Five incompletions in a game. I mean, come on. That's pretty good for Case Keenum. Yeah.

And you look to just Matt Ryan and the fact that Matt Ryan couldn't throw on that Vikings' defense. I mean, that Vikings defense is legitimately the best defense in football, I would say. Yeah. No, because you know, because here's what happens. It's people judge it for, well, they give up a play here, give a play there. It's a 60-minute fight when you play them. And you're going to have to be really good for, you get the ball 12 possessions. You have to be really good for 12 possessions.

And they have stars at every level. You have Griffin. You have Barr. You have roads. Every single level of their defense, there's a superstar. Right. And if you're not good on all 12th. There's always going to be a possession where you screw it up.

Like they play Philly. If they were to play Philly, Philly's going to have to be really good on all those possessions. And they're going to have to be able to block Griffin on every single play. They're good. Next up, we have the KGBB Award. that's going to go to the Detroit Lions who got Flacco, D.B. Flacco. You know, I mean, of all, and I thought on Saturday sit down, I thought Detroit would have a good opportunity here. I mean, like, look.

I said they were going to make the playoffs. I have to walk that back now. We're both walking it back. I mean, that was just really embarrassing. The performance, they're sloppy. They have no attention to detail. Their defense was horrendous. I mean, when you make D.B. Flacco look like he's really good and he's doing the W thing at the press conference afterwards.

Like, that's salt in the wounds. I mean, Detroit's, I never have bought. There's two teams that I have never bought into all year. It's been Tennessee and Detroit. I think Tennessee's terrible. Yeah, if you don't know, now you know, the Tennessee Titans are terrible. I think they're terrible. I don't care what their record is.

I think they're bad. I think they run a high school offense. I think it's a joke. They're play calling. I hate teams that have this mentality. Let's just get back in third and manageable. Third and manageable is the worst place to be in football. I hate it.

It's the worst, right? The object is to get first downs. The object is to stay out of third down. The object is not to be in third and manageable. So when you hand the ball off for a one-yard gain, you're in third and manageable. Josh McCallin did an incredible job yesterday. Should get player of the week because the Jets purposely were trying to control the clock. So they were running the ball more than perhaps they would if their defense was playing better.

So they were in a lot of third and sevens, and McCallin was able to make plays in those plays. I mean, Robbie Anderson was great. I mean, Jureen-Kirce made a great catch. So I get what they were doing. But if you're the Tennessee Titans and you have this marquee quarter, back and Marcus Marriota, and you can't take a giant step, and you're struggling to beat Tom Savage, and Billy O'Brien should get coach of the year. He has so many injuries, it's like unbelievable. I don't even know who he's putting out there, and they're right there with them at home.

Like, so, I don't know. And Detroit's the same way. Like, Detroit's not a good team. Like, I don't care. You can give Matthew Stafford for all this money you want. They're not a good team. Well, somehow the Titans are 8 and 4, and there's the top of the AFC South. Yeah, and somehow they'll be one and done. Yep. And somehow they'll be one and done. All right, Lombardi, before we get out of here, one quick thing, we got Monday night football, Steelers, Bingles, anything to watch tonight? You know, these rivalry games are fun to see. You know, look, the

Steelers have, they have Baltimore next week and then they got New England. So this is a tough stretch. I mean, this is going to be a lot of, this is going to be a lot of bumps and bruises here, and this is going to take a pounding on them. I think you want to play left hand against Pittsburgh. I'm convinced of this. I think you've got to make sure you stop

Levyon Bell from running the football on you, and take your chances with Ben beating you with his arm. I think you want Ben to throw up more than 40 times. If Ben can throw it more than 40 times, and he can beat you throwing it more than 40 times without interceptions and turnovers, then better off to him. So I think that's how you have to play the game.

Can I think Cincinnati can do it? I don't know. I never buy into Andy Dalton. I'm not going to buy into any of the things what Cincinnati does on offense. I think Pittsburgh wins the game, but I think if Cincinnati plays a certain way, they can win. Absolutely.

And also Heisman finalists will be announced tonight, so tune in for that. Did you watch the ESPN show the other night, the selection show? Yeah. It was so annoying, right? Yeah. It was so annoying.

Like, we waited all this time to get the thing. And then finally when it comes in, we have to do the, like you felt like Steve Harvey was doing the, what's that show? He does family feud and then rolling it out. But it was like 20, rolling it out, rolling out. Like, come on, man, just give me who the fourth team was. That's all we wanted to know. We know who the three were. So anyway, I think this.

I think if Clemson plays Alabama, I think that's going to be such a war that the winner of that game might actually end up being the loser. Yeah. They get to play Oklahoma or Georgia team that didn't have to go through that. Yeah. That's pretty much the national championship game for most people. This has been a great addition to GM Street. Sorry, it was on Monday this week. We'll be back next week on Sunday night and back to the usual routine.

Thanks for listening. Thanks, Dave Fraser.