The Ringer NFL Show - Gregg Popovich on America in 2020, the Leadership Void, and What Needs to Change | Flying Coach With Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll

Episode Date: June 3, 2020

Steve and Pete are joined by San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich to have a conversation about the state of our nation, how we got here as a country, our absence of leadership, and how we can take action to grow and bring about change following the killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis police officer. Host: Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll Guest: Gregg Popovich This show is raising money for COVID-19 relief. You can help! Donate here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Flying Coach podcast, Steve Kerr, Pete Carroll, and our special guest today, somebody who would normally be introduced with all kinds of accolades attached to his name, but I know him too well. So I'm going to cut the BS. Greg Popovich. Thanks for coming on today. Thank you for that, Steve. Appreciate it. Very, very much. That's not much of an introduction, Steve.

It's great. It's perfect. Obviously, you guys got history. I have to be honest. I played for Pop for four years, Pete, and coached with him last summer in the World Cup. I've never felt as nervous as I was today. I think I now understand the sideline reporters and what they actually feel as they go into NBA games, like knowing they got to interview Pop at the end of the first quarter, I'm kind of antsy a little bit.

You know, that's just a schick, right? Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, we'll talk about that at another time. Obviously, very, very difficult week in our country. And I think more than anything today, I just want to have a really open conversation with two coaches who have meant a lot to me in terms of mentoring and who I've learned so much from and who are also really well. connected to their players through relationships. And I just want to have a conversation on what's happening in the country, race relations, where we're heading, how we can actually create change in our country, and maybe what our small place is in that big picture. And I think I'll start out, Pop, by just kind of asking you, your feelings, your thoughts on the last week or two.

that's a that is the starting point isn't it trying to figure out exactly how to think about this what it means how did it happen how did we get here what are what are the reasons what did we miss and all of a sudden we have another killing so for my part is personally as a as a white person one who has obviously participated in the privilege that we have and And I think, you know, a lot of people's situations are privileged that they did not even know they had. It's sort of like you're just will sound a little bit hyperbolic possibly to some, but it's like we were born with innate white supremacy because we were born white. And as Tanini Kote says, there's no such thing as white. You have to try to live your life like you're not white.

It's very confusing to most of us. But if you were born white, you have a view of the world that does put you in a class of white supremacy. Whether you wield that power negatively or not is beside the point. And most of us don't realize that as we're growing up. It's not something that's in your face. Just like every community, Jewish community, black community, so on and so forth. It's not monolithic. Neither is white supremacy.

I don't think I'm ever going to wield a Confederate flag or a Nazi symbol or wear a Ku Klux Klanhood. But that's one extreme of white supremacy. There are all sorts of levels. And I think the more that white people face that, the easier it will be to try to come to some understanding so that we can all live together and all prosper injustice. So as this happened, I just felt a deep sadness, a deep frustration, but also a horrifying embarrassment. As I looked at that officer's face with his hand in his pocket and the nonchalance with which, which he carried on, for an instant, just took all hope away from me for solutions. I definitely won't stay in that state, but for a moment, it was like, my gosh, I'm thinking back to the hoses and the dogs in the 60s,

and then, you know, all the Jim Crow and Rodney King and then all the deaths in between of young black men and women. and here we have a public lynching. And so the embarrassment, the sadness, the anger just welled up. But then the overriding feeling was how in the hell do black people and black people with children deal with something like this? And what can we say or do to help the situation? So just in a nutshell, those were all the things that were going through. my head. Yeah, and I think we've all been feeling that way to some degree, but especially us coaches who are coaching African-American players and coaching with other African-American

coaches and knowing their families. And, you know, when it's personalized and you can see the pain, it is so difficult. Pete, I know you have been in constant contact with your team through your Zoom meetings and with the recent, I guess, normally they would be called mini-camps, but whatever you guys are calling them, you guys were having daily Zooms over the last couple of weeks. So what have your interactions been like with your team? Well, first off, because of our longstanding relationships with our teams and our players and the backgrounds and always caring about them enough to want to know about their families and want to

know where they come from and want to know what they've been through to try to understand them better and love them better as we go through the process of trying to make winning teams. The connection is so deep and the understanding as I have learned over the years about the pain and the discomfort and the horrific burden that are that are that are, that are different burden that our players carry with them, the responsibility to want to do something and knowing that we're in a position where maybe we could do something, it makes it such a challenge because it feels so helpless. I can identify with Pop saying that moment when he looked in the eyes of that guy and he just

didn't care. It just, you know, it was just like a lost feeling. How can we prevent this from being a reality, you know? And so this is a wonderful opportunity, Greg. I'm so glad you're doing this with this because it's really, I'm hoping it's, you know, just three white guys speaking to white guys and, and let them, let people understand kind of where we're coming from and share with them. And so the point, Steve, is that when in our meetings and as we go forward on Friday,

we just, we had to address what was going on because it was already starting and knowing that we were leading into the weekend that was going to be really heated up most likely and accentuated the craziness and all. We came back on Monday and went right to it again and we break up and we have our, we have teams within our team. So we have a kind of a set up makeup where we can really visit and let guys speak their hearts and talk about, you know, how this is impacting them and how it's affecting them and so that we could all share in everybody's stories.

That's the process that we went through, you know, and we've been here before and we've been through this before. For my younger players, the guys that are the rooks, you know, that are coming in, it's an opportunity for them to hear from our leaders. And we have marvelous guys that speak on behalf of the communities and speak on behalf of their families and speak on behalf of themselves as teammates. They show the way for younger guys how they can speak and talk and it's okay in our environment to communicate, all in the hopes of just finding some kind of sense of understanding, and then how do we take the next step with this new experience that we've just lived through and it's so horrific as it is again.

It's again is what kills us, you know, and pop up again it happened. We were facing it again. And unfortunately, you know, the fear of it happening again ahead of us is just unbearable to me to think. But anyway, so the point is that we're trying to interact as much as we can with our guys and hear from them and listen and learn and grow and find a place where we, can act and do something really positive, which our club has done that over the years, but we need to do more and we're never done. And we can't live.

I know the white guys in my staff, as you said, we have a bunch of guys on both sides of the table here that have different issues and backgrounds. We can't live with an oblivious way of looking at this. We can't do that. It's the privilege that, like you said, pop, white people have. There's this living in oblivious to what's going on. That ain't okay. And so I'm trying to convey that to my. guys that we see it that way and then we're trying to learn from each other and see if we can move

ahead together. So I want to eventually get to that point of, you know, what can we do? What should we do? But, but Pop, you brought up the reminder of the 60s, you know, with the fire hoses and the dogs. And, you know, for me, this was a reminder that Rodney King was 28 years ago. Right. You know, so the point being, this has been going on forever. it continues on forever. So, you know, why does it keep happening? Why has it gone on forever? I think one of the most important dynamics of all of this is in our country, there's been a refusal

to reconcile our sins of our past. And I know some people are going to say, you know, hey, slavery was abolished and, you know, during the Civil War and that was a long time ago. stop it, right? You know, this is, this is something that is generational. It's 400 years in the making. And I think the, probably the thing that I think has to be done before anything is an understanding and an awareness that there needs to be a reconciliation, an admission of guilt. And again, I don't, I don't think it should be, this is not a message of, hey, all you white people, you should feel guilty. This is your fault. That's not the point.

But this is the way our country is. It's our responsibility to admit that this is what's going on in our country. And let's look at our past and let's truly examine our past. And Pop, I know you've talked about that dynamic. Any thoughts on that front? Sure. In a sense, it's important that, as you said, it's not admitting that you're guilty of something on the face.

But silence or inaction or being oblivious makes you complicit. And that's the point that a lot of people don't understand. As long as they are not yelling out the N-word or they're not the ones stopping somebody on the street. They're not into trucks chasing a young black man down. So that makes them in. innocent. That's not the point. The point is to be aware, as you said, of the past, of those centuries of treatment and understanding that emancipation didn't really do a whole lot because it was

followed with Reconstruction and Jim Crow and so on and so forth. And that admission, much like Germany has done in their special circumstances, is the starting point. It's like building a house and you start with the foundation. That admission has to be forthright, come from the heart. We're not going to reach everybody. That's an impossibility. So this is not an effort to be perfect, but it's an effort to make the country live up to the values and expectations and principles that it espouse in the beginning, some of which were lies for a great number of our citizens. So that admission is the starting point.

And it's on us as white people to make this happen. So it's a constant. And if this doesn't do it, I fear I don't know what will. But a daily, every incident that does happen has to be called out, whether it's by the government or one of your friends that you're close to, but amazes you with some action. or some words out of his or her mouth. Everything has to be called out.

It was a good little vignette I saw the other day. It was someone speaking on one of the news shows about changing the culture. He talked about alcohol and driving drunk and how that culture changed. And now, you know, basically you're a pariah if you get caught drinking while you're driving. And mothers did that. that group changed a whole culture. Our society really changed with that. So we do have the power as a group.

If we stay on this, call it out, and be vocal all the time. And that small percentage of people that won't fall in the line, they really won't matter. We can get this right to the point where the justice system changes and we stop incarcerating so many and so on and so forth, which I'm sure we'll get to later. that's the starting point for sure. Black people have tried for a long time. It hasn't happened yet. And we're the problem. We're the fly in the ointment.

Yeah, that's true. I couldn't agree with you more pop that people in the communities of color, they know the pain and the reality. They understand that. It's called upon the problem lies in the white communities, not responding and not the awareness, not being adequate enough. so that we do see, hear, feel the indiscretions that are happening. And we act on it. We respond with our conscience doesn't allow us to do anything but respond. And so there's work to be done because this oblivious nature is just not okay. And, you know, one of the thoughts that I'm having is that, you know, it's, one thing would be that, okay, I'm non-racist person. You know, I don't act in that way in any my my actions is in my everyday life. Well, that's not enough. It's we have to be anti-racist.

We have to go the step further. We have to go beyond an act and take the action. It's going to be a challenge for people. It's hard to step in when you hear a conversation going on and say, hey, okay, can we clean that up a little bit or whatever you might say to acknowledge the fact that you're not accepting that which is getting carried on around you. We have to get bold about that. And I think that happens through knowledge and education and awareness. And we have to, that's why guys like us got to keep talking. You know, we've been through a lot together in our stuff. And we have to keep talking and allow for the mentality that's a mentality that's necessary.

And we ain't perfect. We've all screwed up and not done well enough. That's why I feel frustrated. I'm not doing enough. I'm not on it enough. I can't get active enough to create the change. But I think we need to make progress, not just change, you know. We've got to help progress down the road here and get better at what we're doing.

And we've got to work really hard at it. It's really important for us all. I think one of the components to this whole awareness is just the education part of it. And I think it's actually embarrassing. But a lot of American history has just been omitted from our textbooks. And I've had a couple of players who have been really interested. in race relations and politics and history. David West, who I know you coached Pop in San Antonio and also Andre Agadala.

And I remember having a conversation with Andre a few years ago. And we were talking about race and this subject of admission of this great sin in our country. And he said, coach, have you ever heard of the Tulsa race riots? And I said, no. It's a great example. Yeah. Yeah. And he says, I said, no. I said, and I'm immediately put on my on my heels. I said, what, tell me about them. And he explains this, this basically, this incredibly successful African American town called Black Wall Street.

Everybody in town was, it was a really thriving town. And there was an altercation between a black man and a white woman somewhere in Tulsa and basically the whole town where these African-American people lived was attacked and dozens, if not hundreds were killed and the whole neighborhood was burned down. I took American history in both high school and college and I never heard of that. So what does that say? We don't even teach it to our children. And so if we're not teaching this stuff, if we're not actually sharing the information that's important, how are we going to ever understand what people are actually facing? Right.

300 people were killed in that massacre, 300. Couldn't you just see that? I think that there could be such value if in the educational system that we taught the history of racism in America, or maybe history of racism. The effort it would take to get the curriculum there, to get the teachers and get the parents and the families to allow that to be brought into their schools, that whole process may be as valuable as the actual teaching that happens in the classroom for the kids. But without recognizing that history, without acknowledging it and calling it exactly like

it is, what are we talking about? No wonder people don't know. No wonder people can remain oblivious. No wonder they can stay living in privilege. We're not even bringing out the truth that we just need to get the truth in front of us. And then I would, gosh, I wish we could figure out how to get that in their classrooms, you know? Coach, it's such a great point. It's how do you hold someone responsible if they're just totally ignorant?

I have no idea about what has gone on. And that's why this pressure has to be constant by white people, whether it's whatever municipality you're talking about, whatever school board, sure. That's a tough slog for sure. It's going to be difficult to get something like that done. But it's a great point. And to begin it as early as possible is probably important. Sure.

I was in a TV room the other day with my eight-year-old granddaughter. And I was watching the news. She happened to walk in. And it was the exact time where they were replaying this policeman with his knee. on George Floyd's neck. And I didn't realize she was there. And I turned for whatever reason. I saw her standing there.

And she was just staring. And she said, Poppy, why has that man have his knee on that man's neck? What is he doing? And I was just, I was dumbfounded. I didn't,

I turned it off. And then I thought, should I have left it on, have explained it to her? or how do I explain it to her now that I've turned it off? And I made some feeble attempt. But I didn't know how far to go, how deep to go. What age is it?

Is she ready or not ready? And I thought, well, that's a problem for me. And then I thought, what about a black family? Do you think they have a problem talking to their kids and figuring out what's going on here? So it's so convoluted and complicated that, as Steve said earlier, everything sort of fades away if we don't have that initial admission, that sorrowful recognition of what went on in the past and what has continued. And I don't know how many people are able to do it.

But even if they were the most selfish people in the world, it's for their benefit too, even if it's for the wrong reasons. Pop, you mentioned Germany. And I think it's a really important analogy because obviously what happened during the Holocaust is among the most horrific events of the world's history, if not the most horrific. Germany is now the strongest country in Europe, what, 75 years after the Holocaust approximately. Can you share what you know about Germans' reconciliation as a country? as a government after the Holocaust and what they did, how they approached? Well, I think the most important thing they did, and this is an obviously problem for us,

this cannot be done, and what they did could not be done without leadership. It has to come from those people in positions of power, imagery. we follow and must trust our leaders until they show us otherwise. And it's pretty obvious that we've been shown otherwise in a lot of different situations here. So that trust, that credibility isn't really there. That's a problem we have that they took on. And the leadership was dedicated, truthful, transparent, heartfelt, and the public, and I always want to believe the majority of the public is, is have, they have good hearts.

They want things to be done properly. They're, they're not prone to listen to the bad angels. They listen to their good angels, but only if that leadership that's in power can direct them appropriately. And that's where it started. After that, there was a dogged recognition. recognition and oversight educationally, politically, in municipality after municipality, to follow through, to make sure that education continued. And that's a big job.

And I don't know at this point if, well, we're not up to it at this point. Yeah, we know that. We're not up to it. Yeah. So that's a problem. you know the fact that they were able to make it through the first the the image like you said they had the image of we need to do something about this and they worked their way through that process there's so much good that comes through that processing just to get to the point that it isn't going to be easy but wouldn't

i would think that three of us would all from what we know wouldn't we stand for we need to see it somewhere in the educational system and processed with a real clear lineage of bringing it on through and taught in the school so that it's It just becomes a normal understanding and realization of what happened. I mean, that's, to me, it's just so obvious that I would jump on the table for that. I would think a lot of people wouldn't. I'm sure there's a lot of people that would fight it and make it difficult and all that. So, you know, so that's okay.

I don't worry about that part of it. It's really, the effort has to start to get this thing going. The textbooks aren't even going to be ready to go because there isn't any. But there's plenty of stuff. As we sent out a message for what we're talking about today, there's one really clear thought that we could support that let's see if we can step this thing up educationally and make it available so that our generation of kids coming up and our grandkids, Papa, I know exactly we're talking about our grandkids right now.

How do we speak to them? How do we help them understand? And we range from one to 11 right now, you know. We're trying to help them understand how they're going to take their next steps and how they're going to understand the relationships they have with. the black kids that they grow up with. They're growing up with black kids and their sleepovers and their best friends and all. How can they handle what's coming down the pike? And if we don't give them tools, they're not going to be prepared for it. You're here, coach. I think the good news

is the younger generation behind us is more diverse, more tolerant, more aware than any generation above them. I truly believe that. Just speaking with my children who are all in their 20s, seeing their friends, hearing about what they're doing, and not just in their little circle, but reading about things nationwide. You watch the protests, the peaceful protests that are going on. And I know there's been a lot of violence as well and looting and there's all kinds of stuff going on. But if you watch, let's just say, watch a watch a piece.

peaceful protest, the diversity in those protests is dramatic. And I truly believe the younger generation behind us has had enough. And as they grow, as they become the current generation, they're ready. They're ready for some change. But I think part of this conversation, and we've touched on it, is, you know, what can older white guys like us do? To me, that's what this comes down to is everybody in a position of power, corporations, entertainers, athletes, coaches, educators, people in the limelight, the more the merrier. But we truly need the leaders of big corporations to actually stand up and say,

this has got to stop because they're the ones who can influence the government And if that influence happens, that's how we can initiate some change. But the younger generation coming behind us, they're ready for us to set the table. Those are my beliefs anyway. Yeah, I agree with that, Steve. And there is, we know we see the interaction that is existing that maybe didn't exist when we were growing up or whatever, where there is a much greater sense of relationship and understanding and even a more communal sense of our kids with other kids of other races and all. It's a beautiful thing.

It's almost how could it not happen for the positive? Well, if we don't, we have to jump to the top of this ladder here and get the people on the top end to open up the opportunities, to make the statements, to make the declarations that will allow for this change. Because somewhere along the line now, this should have happened. It already should have happened and it didn't. And so there's, there's issues here and there's concerns and there's efforts and there's some power to the messaging that comes down that has main. maintained it to this point. We're still fighting our butt off to get this done. But that's okay. It's okay. It's just there's things working against us here. So as we try to generate energy and momentum and all that, we have to, we've got to move the people that are willing to move.

And I think that pops said that right off the top. I think that's really crucial. Well, I think that the responsibility, as Steve said, for those who have some sort of platform, whether you're an athlete or a coach or an entertainer or a business mogul, all those people have to coalesce. They have to come together because it's a little more difficult now in some ways. When I think back to Martin Luther King Jr. boycotting the buses, well, that hurt people's pocketbooks. And some change happened because of that. It's difficult in today's world, in this corporate world, to make people's

pocketbooks hurt the way that did. It seems like a small example, but the world has changed dramatically. We just gave, I forget the figure, $150, $145 million with a B dollars to real estate developers in this last package, in one of the packages that we just did these bailout deals. That's horrific. It's humiliated. It's ignorant. And a lot of journalists, have printed it and it's been out there, but nothing will be done. Just like after the 2008 debacle financially, tell me how many executives are in jail because of it. So it's a depressing thing, but what it tells me is if it's that more difficult, it's even a greater responsibility for people like ourselves to make sure that we talk about it as much as

we possibly can. And this educational point that you bring up, coach, is, I think it's fantastic. And I think it could be a very valuable way. You think about that sports team, that hockey team, that basketball, that football, whoever it is in that city, making a point about something like that and putting their money where their mouth is and engaging whatever corporate entities happen to be in that particular locality to talk to school boards, to talk about education, because there's always got to be pressure. Nothing happens. In the 60s, nothing really changed until all the people in America saw the hoses and the dogs on TV.

And they saw the way black people were being treated there. Now it became real. It's the same with the Vietnam War. People have to feel the pain to some degree before they're at, because as we've often said, we're way, way, way too comfortable. and unless we get people to be feeling more uncomfortable, it doesn't change. You know, Papa Boyce, I hate to learn the hard way, but sometimes we just have to learn the hard way for our greatest lessons to come through.

And let's look what happened this week. Look at the response this week. We know that we're trying to seize this opportunity because we can feel it because of the pain that was so clearly demonstrated. Like I said, I hate to learn the hard way, but sometimes that's the only way for the lessons to really drive home. And so we got to make it pay. We got to make this time pay for something really positive by reacting and responding.

It feels like this is a tipping point. You know, Pop, you mentioned that in Vietnam and, you know, the pictures of the war, the pictures of the dogs and the fire hoses during the demonstrations in the 60s. What's different now compared to, say, Ferguson in 2014? after Michael Brown was killed. Why now do you think, does it have to do with the virus? Is it exacerbated because people aren't working? Why is it all of a sudden feeling like this is it now?

Or does it? Right. I've talked with a good number of people about that because why not two killings ago or four killings ago? It's similar to the argument about guns. you know, Sandy Hook wouldn't be enough to see little kids killed the way they were. But it wasn't enough. And so it's always, to me, it's always a matter of how to, you might, as coach said, the hard way, how do you make people feel the pain? How do you do that? Well, it's got to be pressure of some sort. And usually it has been protests. Nothing happens because people are silent, because people are quiet. There's always got to be a reaction.

And I honestly think that, as many have said, that the virus has a lot to do with this. Because you're a hold up in your house. You're already in a little bit of a semi-depressed state. You know, probably your mood probably is a little different than usual. You lost a little bit of energy in your step. You become a little bit more introspective. You're maybe a little bit more involved in relationships with your family and with your friends on the phone, you take it a little time to check your priorities. And in the middle

of that, we have a government and a president who has been the way he has, and we would waste way too much time talking about every little thing that he has said or done. But even for people who I think initially voted for him, I have to believe there's a certain number of them who were disgusted by the behavior and at least really tired of what would go on day after day after day. And so it all kind of coalesces. It all comes together. And then the George Floyd murder was so in your face. And the manner in which it was done, I think, sickened even the most hardened, or I hope,

sicken, even some of the most ardent Trump supporters, because that was a gut feeling that anybody with any kind of heart would have. It was primal. It was a primal feeling when there was an expressionless man doing this, actually adjusting his knee on this man's neck as he left his hand in his pocket, like it was really not a lot of effort here. I'm just doing what I need to do. And I think it discussed in a lot of people. And thus, you know, the protests came out, as you both have said, with all kinds of different people, all kinds of different races, which was heartening, for sure. You know, one of the things, too, that supported that, I think the, the, the, the fear that happened here was the, the lack of justice immediately stepping in, stepping in.

and claiming that this is, it's right before ice and you're going to do what? You're going to delay what process? And it took us time to get the guys arrested and all that. And it still is. I think that response added to it had the response been right immediate and, you know, it's easy second in hindsight and all, but they should have jumped on it. Had they, I think the response from the populations would have been different to some extent anyway. And it doesn't make anything right at all.

But that's a great point. That's a real sickening part of it. is that what, we didn't react to it, and the white people that were, all the white guys that were sitting right there that could have helped out and they didn't and whatever. And I don't know any of the guidelines and the rules of all this thing,

but that response didn't help us. And we need a better response. We got to know that that's what's going to happen next time too. We need to respond better because of what we're learning and what we've know. How could we not learn these lessons, pop, after all this time? After all of these instances, there's so many examples.

Your point is a great one, coach. And just, you know, Armad Aubrey, that took, what, two, three months? and we wouldn't even have known until a video came out. Steve just talked about Tulsa, and nobody still knows about that, basically. A hundred years later, yeah. Yeah, you know, same thing happened in Wilmington,

the Wilmington Lye. There's a great book out now called The Wilmington Lye. Same sort of a massacre, but nobody knows about it. And that delay, I think coach makes a great point. Steve, the point you make about, you know, like we all would like to call for the people that are in positions who have influence and that could affect change. But the other thought of it is, to me, is that everybody has an influence to some extent. And we need, yeah, absolutely on point. We need to get the people who can call

some shots for us and make sure that they can help situations and the politics of stuff and all of that. But everybody has in their own dimension around them an ability to affect the right way to respond and the right outlook and doing the right thing and saying the right thing, and making the right stand as little as it may be if more people collectively. And I think that's what we're seeing. Look at the response in the protests. This protests are extraordinary. That's extraordinary demonstration that we need to see. There's some horrible parts of it. But protest is awesome because people are expressing their views and their visions and they're willing to put themselves out. We need that to happen on all levels as well as reaching

to the highest levels. And whatever we can do to influence that would be, would be worthwhile, I'm sure. It's a great, great point. Part of that is, is having those uncomfortable conversations with the people who may not agree with you already, you know. Sure. We all have people in our circle who are going to disagree with certain points on this. There can't be any disagreement about what we just witnessed. You know, we just witnessed murder. and this was not murder number one.

This has been happening for 400 years. So, you know, these conversations have to be had at every level. You're right, Pete. And then I think there's so much that everybody can do, you know, donating money or time to grassroots organizations around the country. There's a million things you can do to help. But I think you're right. I think it's a collaboration. collective effort. I want to ask you this because this is, you know, Pop mentioned generally peaceful

protest isn't going to get us very far. You, in the NFL, you witnessed this. We all did four years ago when Colin Kaepernick decided to take a knee and protest of police brutality. And not only was he basically shouted down, although plenty of people supported him, but, you know, the the, you know, he's kind of left without a job and a lot of people just sort of forgot about him. And the NFL has just moved on. How do you feel about all that and how do you reconcile all that with the fact that you're, you're very outspoken and very passionate about the issues we're discussing right now? Well, I think that there was a moment in time that a young man captured and he took a stand

on something, you know, figuratively took a knee, but he stood up for something he believed in. And what an extraordinary moment it was that he was willing to take. I don't know that he had any idea what the impact would be as it turned out. But what a symbol of courage and vision, maybe even as he was just learning it, to do what he did. But what happened from the process is it elevated an awareness from people that just took everything away from what the statement was all about and it just got tugged and pulled and ripped apart. And the whole mission of what the statement was that was such a beautiful, it's still the statement we're making right today.

Is it that we're not protecting our people? We're not looking after one another. We're not making the right choices. We're not following the right process to bring people to justice when actions are taken. And so I think it was a big sacrifice in the sense that a young man makes. But those are the courageous moments that some guys take. And we owe a tremendous amount to him for sure. I think this is where, you know, Pop, you mentioned leadership before.

And, you know, the kind of national leadership we need. You know, when Kaepernick took a knee, you know, the first thing that the Trump administration did was they staged the walkout by Vice President Pence, where he flies to the game in Indianapolis. And as soon as the national anthem starts, Kaepernick takes the knee. And he stands up and he walks out. He makes a big show of it. And then ironically, Pence just this past week tweeted, we support peaceful protests. Well, no, you don't. You obviously don't. You know, and Trump at the time called Kaepernick and all NFL players who were kneeling, called them sons of bitches. Said, get them out of there. If they don't want to stand for their flag, fire them.

Get them out of this country. Trump yesterday in his comments says, we support peaceful protest. So obviously we don't have the leadership to support people like Colin Kaepernick from the top in our government. But I also think he needed it from the NFL offices too. I think he needed it. He needed more support from Roger Goodell and from the league office. But, you know, that's, to me, it's really hard to look at what's going on right now with all the violence and the protest and not look back to four years ago and say, look, this guy was trying to peacefully protest and nothing came of it. The killings went on and nothing changed and he was actually ridiculed. So it's a,

it's a real tough one to think about. Well, leadership, you know, encouraged go hand in hand. And we know we don't have that. When we have a leader whose main purpose in life is himself in anything that affects him is how he bases his words and action. The only words that come out there somewhat inclusive are written for him by others that he speaks as if he just took a hit of castor oil and has to say it anyway because he has to mollify the idiotic things he said previously. So when the vandals did what they did, he condemned that, which anybody would. But as you both have said, he also condemned the peaceful protest with Colin Kaepernick. he will use whatever he can to advance his own purposes. And the crowd around him is as bad or worse.

All the sycophants around, they know who he is. These are the same people who said he was unfit, the same people who said he was crazy, but now they're willing to carry his water. So that leadership is not there. And, you know, the vandals that were all wishing they hadn't done what they did, it's important not to condone that, but to still understand it, to understand the frustration, the anger, the hopelessness. And we're talking now about poverty, about injustice, about incarceration, about profiling, about police brutality, all this boils up. And you're going to get some of that.

It's going to happen. It's inevitable. It's logical. I'm not surprised by it at all. So somehow the culture has to change, just like it did with drunk driving, this culture that's a disease in all of our cities. And it's about policing. It's about policing.

This is not an occupying force. The black and brown people in our society look at them as an invading force, as they should, for all the reasons that everybody's talked and written about. Now we have tanks and grenade launchers and this sort of thing in some police departments. It's like the Soviets going into Hungary half the time when you look down the street now and you see the equipment. Why do we need that equipment? How is it not going to be a confrontational sort of attitude, at least mentally in all these places? The cultures in all these cities have to change.

And Obama tried to do that. He had a great program that was being implemented across the country about policing, about training, about recruitment, all that sort of thing, about the qualified immunity they have, about the unions, and how ridiculous it is that you can hardly prosecute somebody, as we've seen. But what happened when the Trump administration came in, they threw that game plan in the toilet, just like the pandemic game plan. And we know all the reasons why and don't need to go into that. But that leadership, that courage that President Obama showed to try and help fix that has been thrown in the toilet. We have to start from the beginning. And as I think you said the beginning, Steve, maybe this is a tipping point. Maybe that kind of pressure can be put on with people who have any kind of a voice at all.

And as coach said, even from the grassroots, everybody. It's not just the people who can be seen. But if we all do it and demand it, that policing situation can at least not be done behind closed doors. Because all those contracts are done, as far as I know, with mayors and police departments behind closed doors. They're not voted on. People don't know about those things. And now we're stuck with what we have in all these situations where they can hardly be prosecuted. You know, some of it comes in mind to me, Steve, is about Pops talking about.

about leadership, you know, and being in the positions that we have learned that leadership is about the other people. It's about holding ourselves accountable to help those around us be what they can possibly be. And without that connection, there is no leadership. If you don't have the connection to the people that you're serving and hold yourself accountable for all of the people that may be listening to us, you know, that are in those positions, you've got to take those tough stands. You've got to stand up for it and stand up for what you know is right and be willing to take the hit because it's the right thing to do. And then good things happen because you're doing things for the right reasons, you know, and you can make it through the hard times and you can

rebound from the from the setbacks and the problems. But it comes from the principle of just serving others and doing a good job with it and letting yourself be scrutinized because we live with that and have the courage to suck it up and do it. You know, and so. No, it's a great point. And I think we're in an era now where athletes are really more likely to speak out to make their voices heard than we've seen probably since the civil rights era. You know, Jalen Brown drove 15 miles or 15 hours from Boston down to Atlanta to join the protests the other day. You know, the Players Coalition made up of some of the former NFL players, Anquan Bolden, DeMario Davis. I know Malcolm Jenkins is very, very involved work done, doing a ton of great work on the front lines, in our inner cities, trying to help with these very issues that you guys are talking about.

Bob, do you feel, is it any different now coaching than, say, I don't know, 20 years ago when we were living in, you know, maybe before 9-11 when we were living in a much more sort of benign era? You know, I think that people are people, you know, people that have a different perspective. I think the players that we coach now, I think they become a little bit more work. Worldly sooner than in the past because so much has gone on. Our country has seen so much. And the Internet, the social media, they're so well connected. Oftentimes, my players tell me what the hell is going on in the world. And then I go check it out.

Because that's the world we have. In the past, everything was a little bit more insular. And you just had your group, your family, your team, your coaching staff. But it wasn't interconnected the way it is now kind of like the globalization we have in the world. We sort of have that in player. So they're pretty knowledgeable as to what's going on. And as you said, I think they're less prone to just accept things the way they are. You know, the players that you just mentioned on the coalition and other players in all the leagues, I think, are really ready, willing and able to help out and try to make a stop to all the craziness that we see and to really focus on helping those places, those people that have less than the rest of us, much more committed.

I believe, and as you said, much more ready to speak out. But it's got to stay persistent or it's just going to fade away. Pete, you feel that responsibility to help nurture that sort of activism from your players? Or is that something that just comes naturally and you let them go? No, I do. I want our guys to feel comfortable thinking for themselves. and feel comfortable with their thoughts and feel comfortable about expressing their thoughts

in our environments. We work to create a kind of a culture that allows for that to happen in hopes that they will find their voice and are willing to step out and do stuff. Our guys are really active in the community. The meetings that we just had on Monday were really, really went, interestingly,

our guys talked a lot about voting. They talked a lot about making their voice heard and helping, you know, coaches admitted that, you know, they hadn't voted in years past, but they were going to vote like never before. And the players were saying the same thing. And we're going to make sure that we help the people around us understand how important this. I mean, think about that mentality.

Our guys are so much better informed and so much smarter than they used to be because they have so much information and available to them. And, you know, like Pop said, they're way ahead of us, man, you know, a lot of times. And we have to be open to learn from them as well. But I think that there's, in my situation, I'm really promoting our guys to branch out and to reach out. And I'm not afraid of them to speak out. I like them to, I'll reel them in. You know, I'm okay.

We'll reel them in. You know, we've had a lot of guys have been pretty vocal over the years. And I've got no problem with that at all. They just got to be willing to come on back to the team and come on back to the culture that we, they were in and live with us. But I think it's really important. And I don't know how somebody could be at their best unless we keep pushing them that way. We've got to keep pushing them to find themselves and find their voice. That's a culture.

You know, coaches created that culture and that allows people to feel comfortable and to be transparent, to share ideas. And as you well know, Steve, you know, that's what we've tried to do with our teams over these last couple of decades. And it makes for not just a happier family, but a family that feels responsible to each of us. other. They enjoy being with each other. They're proud to be there. And if we can help that, whether that means, you know, having guests come in or certain books that are provided or discussions like coaches having with his teams now, it's our duty to do that. We have that responsibility to keep that sort of a culture alive. And the more those cultures exist, the better off we're going to be. To me, it's because,

more apparent how important it is to promote teammates and team. And more than ever, you know, it's always been the team game for us in our sports that we played. But more than ever, the awareness of our guys to be great teammates is more valuable to me and more important to me than it ever has been in my coaching. And what that means is that if you're a great teammate, then you're concerned for others. And the great Bill Russell was in our meeting room, just like you're saying, Papa, we had him in a couple years back. And out of nowhere, he said, you know, you know what it takes to be a great teammate? He said, you've got to get up every morning

thinking about how you can help one of your teammates be better. And I thought, holy crap, think of that awareness that you would have that awareness that you wake up in the morning thinking about your point guard, you know, you're waking up in the morning thinking about my wide receiver. What could I do to help that guy be great? Well, that kind of mentality doesn't have to only be on our teams.

Why couldn't that mentality be what it feels like to be an American? that I am part of the team. I am part of this thing. And what can I do to help the people around me? Kennedy said it a long time ago. You know, why would that not be as important as ever as opposed to look out for what I got, protect your own, look out, you know, save me, you know. I just think it's such a, it's a clear thought that, and it takes direction and leadership. And I know this too, Poppe.

You said it, it's an environment of you feel good about being there. You feel comfortable. You are a little bit happy. Because you know you're doing the good work, you know? You know, you're helping people. And that is so fundamental. But doggone, it's powerful and it's important. And I don't feel it enough around us.

I wish we could feel it more. I wish we could promote it more wherever we go. Those are great points. Great points. I want to wrap it up since this is a coaches podcast. You guys are both just touching on culture. And in my mind, having played for you, Pop, for four years. and Pete, having learned so much from you and having visited your training camps,

the key to both of your respective success is culture, 100%. It's the feeling in the locker room, in the gym every single day. It's not the X's and O's. It's obviously you've got to have talent, and you guys have both had plenty of talent, but it's just the vibe and the working environment and that whatever that is that you feel every day. So I want to ask you, Pop, when did you figure that out in your coaching career? How long did it take from a young coach just starting out to right now? At what point did you figure out that that's what it was all about?

I can't wait to hear this answer. That's a great question. You're making me think back to the days when I was a coach of the Air Force Academy Prep School, working for Hank Egan. and I was a wild man. The most important things to me were people being in the best shape they could be, just killing them out on the court. Maybe show I'm tough or whatever that might be.

And we do the drills until their tongues were hanging out and we'd repeat them and repeat them. And they had to be perfect. They had to execute those things absolutely perfect. Then practice was over. See you later. As time went on, you start to realize, that that's really a shallow way to live.

There's not a whole lot of satisfaction in that. And I would say that probably when I came to Golden State with Nellie, it was probably the first time I watched him or coach just talk to each player like he was their son. He was happy for him or he was disappointed in him, one of the two. And he'd say it either way. You know, say their effort stunk or their effort was great, he'd tell him in no uncertain terms. And then he'd put his arm around him.

Then he'd laugh with them. And they would needle each other, you know, that sort of thing. And they'd probably have a beer together at some point. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Maybe even during practice. You know, it's just, it's a maturation process. So you go from not thinking you know it all, but.

probably being scared to death that you're going to miss something. And, you know, back then it was a different culture. It was all about conditioning and you're going to, you know, the, you don't need water philosophy sort of thing. And then as you go take a salt, take a salt pill if you're getting a cram. You know, that kind of thing. And then you move on and then you realize that how much more meaningful it can you actually know about that player or you can laugh with him or you can get on him but he knows

you're going to put your arm around him after the. practice and then he's just going to say, this guy's crazy. But I know he loves me. I know he cares. And then the satisfaction starts to grow. And then you realize that's the holy grail, those relationships. Yeah. No doubt. Pete, I think I know your answer, but why not? Same question. When did you figure out that dynamic of culture being the most important thing? You know, I don't know if there's a specific time. I got in trouble so much early, my coaching for listening and talking to the players and wanting to know what's going on with them. And I never, I didn't fear that relationship.

And older coaches, more classic coaches, would say you can't listen to your players. You can't talk to them. You know, you have to make call all the shots and all that, which I always felt like I was, but I did it. You know, and I saw way early in my coaching, I was there. And I kind of been in and out of trouble with coaching for a lot of years, you know, people not really relating or thinking we're having too much. much fun or thinking we're doing this or we're doing that. But I do think that when I got ready

going into USC, you know, I had been fired enough times and it just, there was just a moment in there that there was an epiphany that I needed to get it as much as true to my heart as possible. And my heart was about competing and my heart was about having fun. And I wanted to figure out how to connect all that, you know, and so I always cared about, you know, pop, you just, I'd hear you, you know, about loving the guys up and caring for him so much. And you even said sometimes you treat them like your son. That's the way I look at them. I look at these guys like, if I was my own kid, what would I do?

And how would I kick him in the ass if he wasn't doing right? And I'd hug him up as soon as I could or hug him up and then kick him in the ass or, you know, whatever it took to get him to be all that they, you know, could possibly be. And that's kind of, that's been the way, you know. And so with that comes a style. There's a style to how you, you know, you organize your building and how you organize your expectations. and that to me is really, really ultimately comes back to caring. I think that's, I heard it in Pop too, you know, that you saw it in Ellie that you care. Yeah, you can tell them whatever you've got to tell them, but you do it because you care

so much, they need to hear it, you know, and you need to get it out. And then, and then you work them through the hardships of what that, those messages and those lessons are. And sometimes they get cut. And sometimes you bring them back. And sometimes you bench them and sometimes you play, you know, all of those things that we go through, when it comes from a place of caring and loving them, then you can make it through almost anything. And I think it's where the best stuff happens. I think it's where the real magic

occurs. It's what makes it so much fun to be a coach and doing what we do. No doubt. No doubt. Well, I guess I got to share my epiphany moment. I was blessed to play for several Hall of Fame coaches. So I felt it when I was in college playing for Lude Olson. I felt that culture. I couldn't define it. I was 18, 19 years old. I didn't know what the hell I was feeling other than this was really special. I think by the time I played, I got to Chicago and I played for Phil Jackson,

that's when my mind sort of made these connections. I get it. This culture here is so powerful because Phil cares about us. and because there's a genuine authenticity to what he's doing. And to go straight from Chicago to San Antonio and feel the same authenticity and the same genuine caring about me, about my family, you know, coming from Pop. And by the way, Phil and Pop and Lou D'Ulson couldn't be any more different from one another. Yeah, that's a great part about that.

But they were all authentic to themselves, and they all had this beautiful culture that they had built. So I walked into my first coaching job knowing that that's what I wanted to achieve. And Pete, I don't want to embarrass you, but you were the one who verbalized all that for me. When I went up and visited you in Seahawks training camp before camp started, you helped me figure out literally verbalizing what, what I was experiencing when I was feeling that the strength of those cultures. And so after I visited you, I literally put everything down on paper and sort of thought through

everything, you know, tried to design my practice plans so that, you know, this, this authenticity could come through and that the players would feel this certain vibe. And I took everything I do, I took from, you know, Pop, Phil, and Lute. and I've been able to do it in my own voice and make it authentic to me, but through the experience of the guys I've played for. So I'm a very lucky coach. I had a great set of mentors, and you two are each largely responsible for that.

So thank you. Did you participate in any defensive drills in San Antonio? I was going to take credit for you. shooting. I wish he'd let me give me a shooting. I didn't get any credit for that at all. That's the only thing I care about. I just waited till Tim Duncan or David Robinson blocked the shot after I got beat on penetration. It all worked out fine. Still digging on him, Papa. I like digging on the defense. That's good. He's still coming after me. Thank you so much. This was really, really fantastic. And keep doing what you guys are doing. It's so important for people to hear your voices and hear your

thoughts and I just I can't thank you enough for for everything you're you're doing in society and for all your words today. So thanks guys. It's been an honor to be with you guys. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Take care.