The Ringer NFL Show - How to Build an NFL Team (Ep. 114)

Episode Date: July 7, 2017

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark sort NFL teams into five different types of franchises based on team-building strategies: the "drafters" (4:00), the "traders and signers" (8:45), the "tinkerers" (13:00), the "long-gamers," and the "no-planners" (18:15). Then, they rank the best and worst team-building plans in the league (27:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. My name's Robert Mays. I'm a writer at the ringer. Joining me in the lines, Kevin Clark, Kevin, how are you? I'm stewing from you thinking that Drew Breeze would be more valuable in the open market than Matt Ryan. He's been in the studio. I've been in the studio for a week, just staring at the wall. Oh, that's fun.

Did you bring a cot in there at least? Or you said a chair? No, no, no, just staring at the wall. So no sleep. I've been standing up every once in a while. No sleep, no. That's impressive. I'm glad that you've gotten to come to this point.

I assume you had some AIDS of. some sort. I'm not sure what you're taking, but. Nope, just pure rage at your take. Pure rage right to the vein. Pure rage at your take. The Drew Breezes is more valuable than Matt Ryan in 2017. All right, well, we're going to move on from that.

We're going to get a little less player specific this week and get into some more team-driven thoughts and conversations. So one of the podcast we wanted to have is about just the plans different NFL teams have. And not necessarily a ranking of them.

didn't want to go straight into that. I want to talk more about the archetypes that NFL teams have kind of started to abide by when they're choosing the way in which they want to build their team. And I think we settled on like four or five here, Kevin, just the different routes and the different categories that you can look at when you talk about team building in the NFL. Yeah, you know, so I tried to write this as a column last year and it didn't really work as a print thing because, you know, team plans are a very touchy thing because they always, get screwed up and in a vacuum, you know, are the Cleveland Browns geniuses or idiots? I don't know,

but their plan is sound, you know? And so it's a very nuanced thing. So it works in a podcast form. It works where we can debate it and figure out, is this plan good? Is this plan bad? I think the team strategy portion and the team building portion is to me the most fascinating part of the NFL, how teams go about talent acquisition. I think schemes and don't, I don't want to get my mentions lit on fire here. I think schemes are slightly overrated, and I think the ability to acquire talent in a cohesive way is underrated. And I know that that's changing a little bit, just as we maybe study the patterns a little more, and guys like Deepedesta get praised a lot.

And obviously, John Schneider, Ted Thompson, you know, the deal with departed John Dorsey, those are guys who are being praised roundly for their talent acquisition. And I think it's the most fascinating aspect of the game. Yeah, you reach a certain floor. if you have good players, right? Even with the chiefs wondering whether they were going to have Alex Smith, how good their offense was going to be. That defense was going to be good in large part because the guys they had over there.

I mean, the chiefs are kind of a fascinating example, right? Their offense is even viable because Andy Reid is an excellent coach, and their defense is really good because they have really good players. So obviously you want it to be a combination of things, but I think you're right. I mean, just the baseline level of guys you have in your room is always going to matter, and it does sometimes go overlooked. Yeah, exactly. We fetishize offensive and defensive coordinators all.

all the time. I am guilty of it. Robert Mays said that Kyle Shanahan was the reason Matt Ryan was good last year on last week's pod. You were making a bad point is that what you mean to say. Sure. Yeah. The coordinator worship, the coach worship to me is a little overblown

when it's someone like Belichick and there's a cohesive plan that is from the coach and executive level at the same time. That's when I think it is properly rated. But yeah, I mean, I just think that the ability to build a team in a creative way in this era, especially after the CBA, especially with rookie contracts and sort of the way the salary structure works now. I mean, I think

that that, and this is maybe a weird thing to say, but team building is more important than ever. So let's get to the actual different categories that we're going to dig into here. So the five categories of teams that we have are the drafters, the traders and signers, the tinkerers, the long gamers and the no planners. All right. The first group we're going to talk about are the drafters, the boring teams, the teams that just kind of keep going in the way they're going. The team that embodies this more than anybody is the Green Bay Packers, much to the chagrin of their fan base most often.

You know, Albert Brewer did a thing before the championship games this year, where he talked about how the teams were built. And he had a stat in there about homegrown players for each of the final four teams. And with the Packers, 44 of the 53 guys on the Packers were homegrown. And their opponent, the Falcons, it was 27. And the Falcons are actually a little bit middle of the road in that regard. But it is amazing that they could have 17 more homegrown guys than their opponent in the NFC championship game. There was two years ago, I think they, 51 of their 53 guys on their final roster had never played for another team.

it's just really what they've done as far as continuity and not just playing and we'll talk about that in a second but coaching and you know front office I mean what Green Bay has done is basically said no new friends and that's exactly right like these are the teams that when they're looking at how they're going to get better they always look inward not outward

and it's not just Green Bay you know Steelers are a great example of this the Ravens do a lot of this the Bengals do there's maybe driven more by I'll call it frugalness than anything else? Maybe that's not the right way. The Bengals are cheap so they don't like spending any money. But the other teams, I just feel have such an inherent confidence in where they're going and what they're doing and the way their organizations are run. I mean, look at all these teams. Thompson's been there since 05. McCarthy's been there since 06.

Mike Tomlin's been there forever. This is year six of Todd Haley is the offensive coordinator. I'm pretty sure Dick LaBoe is still coaching for the Steelers, even if he's coaching for the Titans too. He got fired and he's still there. He's like me. He's like me in the studio, just staring at a wall. Free agent-wise, it's the same way. They don't go out and get guys, in part because each of these organizations treats compensatory picks as if they're the Ark of the Covenant. Like, it's incredible how valuable they think those things are. When they do spend money in free agency, it's often on guys that were cut elsewhere,

so they don't have to worry about it. If you were to offer Ozzie Newsom a Super Bowl championship or four comp picks, he would have to think about it. It's also that's an Eric, it's a Costa thing too, right? Like, no one loves compics more than Eric DeCosta and Ozzie Newsom. Yeah. So, you know, and even Pittsburgh, their homegrown stats are a little lower than most of the other teams that are mentioned here. But there's a lot of guys they've picked up the scrap heap. You know, Villanueva is one of them. He played for the Eagles. Had a basically had a cup of coffee. Yeah, they're not spending a big money anywhere. James Harrison has played for other teams and has come back. I think he was in a Ravens camp very early in his career. Then he obviously played for the Bengals. But James Harrison's a homegrown Steeler. Come on. Yeah. And so I think he was actually, if you saw him play for the Bengals,

I think he was a sleeper cell for the Steelers the whole time. And then they just came back and was it, you know, was it full strength as soon as he came back. So for me, I mean, I think this strategy is good, but I think it has its fault. I think the Bengals, while I appreciate what they've done and the talent they've drafted, I mean, when you look at what they're doing an offensive line this year, you start to see, and what they did with wide receiver two years ago,

you start to see maybe the flaws in their specific plan, just letting guys go and maybe only resigning the upper upper echelon of guys that they draft. Yeah, the Bengals and the Packers are two comparable test cases, right? Because they had those offensive line and they let walk. And the Packers have just done so far a better job of replacing those guys. I mean, Corey Lindsay is a real center. He started over J.C. Tredder a couple years ago. I don't Trader got hurt, but he's a guy you don't mind moving on with whatsoever.

So it's about being able to replenish those guys after you let them walk. walk away and the Bengals have done a poor job of that and I feel like in some ways the Ravens would probably have done the best job. You know, the Steelers haven't really watched that many guys walk in free agency. They haven't had that many players because they've drafted well enough that have been coveted. So I think overall, the Ravens have done the best job of having guys on a talent treadmill. There's always new ones coming in. With the Packers, there's really no way to know because Aaron Rogers ruins it. Yeah, I mean, look, they've obviously made a few mistakes. I think that even though it was not a huge deal at the time.

I'm sure they wished they had Casey Hayward last year. Yeah. He's the type of guy. That's a perfect example. A really good player that walked out the door and they just didn't care. Yeah, right. And I think Pittsburgh is a little better keeping their own guys. And I think they're a little more amenable to signing these guys to big money extensions

or maybe Ted Thompson draws a line. Well, that's exactly right because we always praise the Packers for getting guys on these cheap deals. But at times that line in the sand hurts them. And I think Hayward is a perfect name to throw out there. All right, buddy, let's move on to the traders and signers. These are the wheelers and dealers, the teams that spend big and free agency, love trades, a lot of moving parts. Every team uses free agency. Some teams trade more than others.

But there are teams like the Giants and the Broncos in recent years and Miami as well that are willing to just go above and beyond the market for certain types of talent. And these are like the traders and the signers, the wheelers and dealers that are willing to go into free agency and the trade market and just say, we're going to do what we need to do to get this done. There was an amazing Reddit post, and how many times in life are you going to say that? No, I love Reddit and I love the NFL Reddit. Last offseason, they did a sort of chart on free agency and wins per dollar spent. And it did not look totally efficient if you look at this chart. And maybe I'll throw it on Twitter when this episode comes out.

it doesn't look extremely efficient to spend a lot of money in for agency unless you're the Denver Broncos. The Broncos essentially were the only team that spent tons of money and won a lot with those guys. Now, the Giants will have to wait and see. Obviously, this chart came out last year, so it was before the Giants made their run last year and then signed. Obviously, they had a lot of money on the books with Jenkins and Vernon. But I think that this is one of the most controversial plans, with the exception of maybe Cleveland, who's obviously totally blown it up. I think there is a huge bias in the NFL against teams who just want to throw money at their holes.

I think that it is seen as honorable to do, you know, the last group we talked about, which is just draft and develop everybody. The Denver Broncos are just saying, screw it. We're just going to sign whoever we want. We're going to sign Emmanuel Sanders because we need receiver help. I just, I think there's, I think it is a almost underutilized tactic to say, all right, we're just going to, you know, we need Donald Stevenson. We need Ronald Leary.

Whatever. We'll just get them. it goes back from forth. There are teams that have run into this and it's been horrible in the past. And remember, it's a little bit further in the past now than it's maybe relevant, but the dream team Eagles are a great example. And the dolphins do this all the time, right? They sign guys that they just shouldn't sign to deals that they shouldn't sign.

Or trade or trade. I mean, they took two Chip Kelly mistakes. It's actually worked out a little bit for them. But, I mean, that's not something Mike Tanabom is shown over his career that he wants to take chances like this. That's not something most of the 32 NFL. GMs do. No, and like the Mario Williams contract last year. That looks like a disaster. So there are times where they'll use that money in some ways that aren't smart. I feel like if you sign the right guys, it's okay. And it's, that seems like a simple thing to describe, right?

If you sign the right guys, it'll work out. But there are guys that are much more rights than others. I mean, you can see the writing on the wall with certain signings right away. That Mario Williams deal with the disaster and the second it was signed. So you can do it in a smart way. And the Giants are the best recent example. You know, they had a defense that went from 30th and DVOA and 15 to second last year. It's the biggest jump in the history of the stat. It's not even close. And they did it by throwing a ton of money at the problem.

And but wisely, wisely. And that's the mistake. Vernon was going to bring pressure. Snacks Harrison was going to stop the run. Jenkins was going to be the corner they needed. I think that they identified the really valuable free agency positions. They went out and got them. And they knew there's no.

thing is overspending if you win in the NFL. And every single one of those guys is hitting their second contract. It's not 30-something guys that you're overpaying for. And another good example with Miami, you can trade to get good talent in there. The problem is when you overpay for that talent again. And I think that Kenny Stills is the best of recent example. I like Kenny Stills as a player. They still probably played too much for him.

I agree. I think Denver's Super Bowl team that won with Peyton Manning, Demarcis Ware, Akeep Taleb, obviously. you have TJ Ward back there. I mean, I think they will forever be the gold standard of how to win with free agency, but I think the Giants have made an incredible run. And it's right.

And Von Miller's a homegrown guy, and so is Malik Jackson. The key is knowing to let Malik Jackson walk away until lot Von Miller stay. And sign Derek Wolf to a huge haircut salary. I mean, like, he is way underpaid. And if you're John Elway and you're a shrewd negotiator, you know, okay, we're going to let Malik Jackson go. We're going to keep Derek Wolf at a huge discount. Next group is probably the largest group of any of these.

teams fit under this umbrella and that's what I would say are the tinkerers. You know, the teams that every offseason, they'll make one or two moves outside of the building, you know, they'll, obviously every team has an influx of talent every year because they're drafting. But these are the teams that every once in a while won't be afraid to go out and sign a couple bigger name free agents. I think that a couple teams in the NFC North are good examples of this. Minnesota, Detroit, you know, teams that go out and get a Golden Tate.

You know, players like that that are not on small, contracts but aren't top of the market guys. They're not revamping their whole team with free agency, but they're definitely taking bites at the Apple for sure. They pick their spots. Yes. And the other sort of hallmark of this tinkerer group is just the fact that they're always vaguely in contention. They're never going one in 15. They're just, you know, under their current regime, they're always at least going to get, you know, six to 11 wins and they're at least going to have a chance and they're going to have a quarterback. It is a, it is a huge group. And like you said, it's definitely the biggest group in the NFL because it is the most average group.

It's something that doesn't take a lot of guts. You're not exactly blowing it up. And you just sort of exist. And I think it's a it's a fascinating group, but it's nowhere near the sort of boldness of the other two groups. It's not a boldness. And I feel like that lack of boldness is often driven by whether you have a quarterback or not. Sure. If you look at these teams, a lot of the ones you throw in this category have a guy around.

around which to build. So if you have a foundation, you tinker around it. And I think that's exactly what the Patriots have done. They are the ultimate tinkerer because they do it in 20 different ways. But the lions are another good example. They have Stafford. They know they do. Drew Breeze is there in New Orleans. They're going to tinker around him. Often in ways that are not smart, but there's no wholesale change going on in New Orleans because Drew Breeze is the quarterback. What's interesting me about the Patriots is that they could be in a different category almost every year. Yeah, that's very true. They take a different, you know, right now their big inefficiency is sort of the average veteran, the guy who makes five to eight million dollars a year. There's almost none of those

guys in the league except the players on the Patriots. I mean, it was incredible to see the research last year. You know, Chris Hogan's salary is almost unheard of in the NFL. outside of the guys who play for the Patriots. I mean, there's no middle class veteran anymore. It does not exist. You either make $15 million a year or you make the $400,000 on your rookie contract. It is, and that's not hyperbole. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it is a very, very small percentage of players

who are sort of middle class veterans, quote, unquote. We do this all the time, right? Where we talk about the inefficiencies, the Patriots exploit. You wrote about that last playoffs. I wrote two weeks ago about the idea of them trading draft picks for those type of mid-tier veterans because now draft picks are overvalued. They see two years into the future, and that's why it's a different approach every single goal around.

And also, by the way, this sort of tinkerer group, what's really interesting, and I would put, I don't know, 15 to 16 teams in this group. Sure. But there is a wide variety of player acquisition within that. You know, I mean, you look at Seattle. I would say Seattle is in this group only because they've married, you know, free agency and the draft. I mean, wouldn't you say?

And I think, but then within that, they've been. built a team almost entirely based on on freakish athleticism. And so, you know, that I think their, their strategy is under a different umbrella, which is, it doesn't matter where we get the players as long as they're absolute athletic freaks. We're going to talk about some of our favorite plans down near the bottom of the show. And I think Seattle is a good test case and a good example of the conversations that we're having because in a way Seattle's plan has changed in the last three years, only because they're married to one version of the plan.

When you say their plan has changed, do you mean just acquire basketball players? Who never played football? Yeah, guys who are just totally out of position. That's what you mean, right? It's that they already made their head, their plan. You know, it was draft and develop and then use free agency as kind of this offshoot weapon. But because they have so much money tied up into their in-house guys now, they can't weaponize free agency in quite the same way.

So that's the thing. It's how we've gotten to this version of the roster are the plans we're talking about. not necessarily what the next two to three years are going to look like. We're going to get to Seattle, but I mean, their fortunes changed because they signed some of the best free agent deals in NFL history. 100% five years ago. Cliff Avro, Michael Bennett, guys like that who were to stop the scrap heap. And then that allows you a lot of flexibility because you have money and you hit on those draft picks. But those guys are there now and they don't have the resources to do that again.

That's the difference now. It's kind of things have to change. It's a nice problem to have. We have too many good players and we had to pay them. That's exactly right. Ted Thompson wouldn't have paid none of them. Ted talks when it kicked him out. This next group, we do not have to worry about that problem.

These are the teams with no discernible plan. I mean, the Jets are the best example. Who knows what the Jets are doing? You don't know what the Jets are doing. So these are the no planners. Yes. The remaining two groups are the long planners and the no planners. And both of them are equally controversial.

So next up is the long gamers. These are the guys who are going to take forever to get where they're going, but they're first going to tear it all down, clear the salary cap, hoard picks, and figure out a way forward while losing a lot of games. No planners really just are aimless. Maybe they draft a quarterback and they don't know what to do with them. Maybe they're throwing money in different positions that don't work. I mean, really, if you look at a no planner's roster, it becomes extremely apparent that there is no plan. The Jets, I mean, maybe you could take the stance that the Jets are trying.

trying for some sort of a long game right now. But on the other hand, they drafted Christian Hakenberg last year. When you draft a quarterback, that accelerates the whole thing. When you draft a quarterback at a certain level of the draft, if you take one in the first 50 picks, I feel like that accelerates things. Right. Except if you're the Browns and you have seven million draft picks. And you took Kaiser, you took Kaiser basically to placate the fan base.

That's all you do. But for me, the Jets are a good example of I have no idea what they're doing. The Rams are another one where it's just like, I kind of think they, tried to end their rebuild last year with the golf pick and then start moving forward with what they have with the defensive core plus golf. Gough was such a rock in the machine that everything has basically stalled for them. There's nothing they can do. There are no planners, but they didn't mean to be no planners. They meant to be tinkers, basically. Well, they meant to be a couple different things over the last five years, right? The Griffin trade, which is five years ago now, by the way,

which is just nuts to think about. But that's, you try to be a long game team. When you'd make that trade, now the long game begins. They screwed the long game up, and that ends with Greg Robinson getting traded recently. And then now they're trying to be tinkers because they feel like they have some defensive talent, and that's just not worked out. Do you know who has the least amount of cap space in the NFL? The Rams. Oh, I thought it was the Chiefs.

No, it's the Rams. They have $3 million in cap space. How is that even possible? I sell less needed a restaurant a couple weeks ago. Did you ask him how he has $3 million in cap space? No, we're on the other side, and then he left before I could say anything. It was in Malibu. Look at you.

I don't hang out in Malibu. I'm not sure why you're living that life. I'm proud of you. I appreciate it. It was a day trip. I think less has more. You live in Malibu now, don't you? You can just tell me.

I'm recording from Malibu. I'm on Madador Beach right now. Who are the other teams that come to mind when you're thinking of the planless group? Are the chiefs no planners right now? The chiefs are another one that was worth discussing, but just because it feels like they're kind of hedging their bets. You know, by going getting Mahomes, it's a future move, but a lot of their money situation, everything else is right now. I feel like they're doing one of the more precarious tightrope walks when it comes to figuring out that bridge time between veteran and rookie.

But with them, it's a little more defensive because their quarterback was actively holding them back. These other teams, that's not happening. So you can understand why they're tinkering a little bit more where the Chiefs went for a little more wholesale change on the offense. I'm going to get angry about the Chiefs real quick. A couple years ago I was talking to someone in the NFL, and we were talking about Super Bowl contenders. And one of the things the guys said, which I think about all the time, is the first prerequisite of winning the Super Bowl is wanting to win the Super Bowl. And that may sound silly or may sound simplistic, but it's not because at any given time, there's really only 10 to 12 teams who are making the moves to say, we're not going to have a hole here, we're not going to have a hole here.

Our contracts are peaking. we're going to lose a lot of guys after this year. We can't retain them so we might as well trade for this guy, trade for this guy. You can always reverse engineer, we talk about this all the time, reverse engineer the Super Bowl champion. You can look at it and go,

oh, well, that made sense. They had all of these guys on cheap contracts. They had all of these guys who they knew they were going to lose, or they had maximum value for a low salary cap number. That's how you win the Super Bowl. A lot of talent for a little money, okay? When you're peaking, you have a responsibility to do everything you can to maximize the Super Bowl window.

And I felt like, I understand the Patriots exist, but I felt like the Chiefs had a chance. There's so much talent on that team. Obviously, the quarterback is a question mark, but I think the defense is really good. I think Travis Kelsey's a weapon. I felt like they were penciled in, an extremely faint pencil.

If you were to say, who's going to be in the AFC championship game? If you would ask me that in February, I would have said the Patriots and the Chiefs. That's crazy, though. They're not even the best team in their division. They are no different now than when they lost the Steelers in January. And I think you can argue every other team in the AFC is better.

You mean the AFC West? No. Every other contender in the AFC. The Patriots are better. The Steelers, by virtue of just having Martavis Bryant are better. Okay. First of all, the Chiefs won the division last year. And they were, they won the division because Derek Hart broke his leg.

No, no, they were in the driver's seat for large portions of the season for the AFC West. There is no scenario in which we, find out what would have happened if Derek Carr didn't break his leg, but they won the division and it wasn't like they, you know, won four in a row. I'm pretty sure they would have won that last week 17 game with Derek Carr and broke his leg. No, I, you don't know that. I'm just saying, he broke his leg on Christmas. He didn't break his leg on Halloween. I understand that. It's so, I'm just saying it's one game, but that one game decided the division. I think right now,

especially with just some of the moves Oakland has made, again, the Steelers have what they have, New England. I think that everybody in that conversation for that AFC title game that you were talking about, you could make an easy argument that they're better. You cannot even start doing that with the Chiefs. So the fact that they went 2 and O against the Raiders last year is irrelevant to you.

I don't think it's irrelevant. I just think that the Raiders are getting better in the Chiefs or not. So I feel like they would be better this year. Wait, wait, wait, wait. We're in the middle of this. We're in the middle of my point here. What I'm saying is that in February, I felt like they could make the moves.

to get to the AFC championship game. They didn't do that. I don't think those moves exist. I think with Alex Smith as your quarterback, those moves do not exist. I think you could have surrounded him with a ton of talent, and they could have made a run

and then lost by 15, 15 points. You pick a guy in the first round? No, you trade picks. You do whatever you need to. I mean, the Patriots just got Brandon Cooks for some reason. They can't afford to trade picks. They were literally over the salary cap. You can't get a $3 million dollar veteran.

You need that rookie salary scale if you're going to bring in extra talent. I understand that. You make the moves. You can figure out in the offseason how to stack your roster. Salary cap dollars are not real until July. I feel like you could have made the moves. However, but here's the overarching point.

This is why I'm angry about the Chiefs. Every single thing they did from the spring on, including, and look, I understand taking a home, especially if you don't believe in Alex Smith. I understand even releasing Macklin, if you don't believe, that he's worth the money and that you thought he took a step back last year. But the one thing is they just did nothing to help themselves. And then they fired their GM. And now in July, they're doing general manager interviews.

I just, I don't see a scenario which they make the playoffs this year now. I agree with you. But I don't think that there was enough there to warrant them just going all in. I feel like you are overvaluing how good of a roster they actually have. What were you supposed to do? You were supposed to take this roster and then just say, eh, all we can do is get to the second round of the playoffs. Time to blow it up.

They're not blowing it up. That's the thing. They took a rookie quarterback in the top 10 of the draft. That's not blowing it up. You try to two first round picks. But the thing is they're going to have so much more money to work with this time next year. Because I feel like I wrote about this when I wrote about them firing Dorsey. This is the end of the current iteration of the chiefs because the guys that are making a ton of money they're going to be gone.

Smith, Johnson, Ali, they're going to have a lot of space freed up. But they're also going to have to. And those moves you want them to make. Now they're going to have the capital to make them. When those guys are gone, they're going to have to retool their defense. They have a lot of good talent. They've got guys like Chris Jones who I really like.

Obviously, Eric Barry is going to be there for the long term now. I understand that. But what I'm saying is that I feel like they could have made a couple of all-in moves and then torn it down in two years. I think that you're seeing them in a way that they don't see themselves. And it's part because in their minds, in their minds, I think they've already retooled their defense. Ali started two games last year. Johnson's coming off from Achilles.

I think the version of them that we see a year, from now is the version they actually are. They just haven't admitted it publicly. There's no debate that the chiefs saw the chiefs a lot differently than Kevin Clark saw the chiefs. I get you. I get you. All right, buddy.

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All right, buddy, let's get into our favorite plans. Yeah. These are going to be all sorts, all categories. Not the Chiefs. They're not on my list either. So we're not that far off. I just wanted to talk it out a little bit. So again, to be clear, these are not the five best teams.

These are not the five teams where we think are going to have the best record in 2017. These are the five favorite plans that we have. mine are in no particular order. So I feel like we should just start with New England. I mean, what else can you say? We talked about this earlier in the show. They do it differently every time, and I feel like that's why it's the best plan.

Because it's not that they don't know what they're doing. It's that they know what they're doing to such a just inherent defined sense that they are comfortable doing it a different way all the time. If you were to design a team for a sustainable success, it would look a lot like the Patriots. So first of all, you have just ruthless and savvy salary cap management. You have the ability to say this guy's too expensive.

Obviously, Belichick cutting a guy year early instead of a year too late is now a extremely famous strategy and it's been done at nauseam. We don't need to discuss it here. But that has saved them a lot of money. The fact that they go out and say, okay, we're going to get Mike Gillisly because we know that he can succeed in certain roles, you know, his yard. for carries off the charts and, you know, situationally, you know, they know exactly what they're getting in all of these guys. So you build through free agency. And then when you build through the

draft, not only are you trading back and, by the way, doing something a decade early that that teams are doing now everywhere, which is trading into the second round, maximizing your second and third round picks, saying the first round is overrated. You don't even want to sign those. And those guys are so expensive now on their second contract. And, you know, there's fifth year option stuff. I mean, there's all sorts of reasons you don't want first round picks right now if you're a team like the Patriots. And so, I mean, they have basically maximized the second and third round over the last decade. Belichick figured it out. I mean, and then beyond that, we talk about athleticism. Belichick loves, you know, the sort of analytic combine drills that I do. He loves

the three cone drill. He loves explosion. And so when you look at it, not only you're talking about middle class veterans, you're talking about maximizing draft picks, and you're talking about athleticism. I mean, they're the perfect team, in my opinion. It's fun now that the Patriots are watching all these teams trade back and trade back and like, oh, that's adorable. You guys think it's 2009. Yeah. It's so funny to me. It's so funny to me because there's this wave, and I've written about this a couple times, there's this wave of stories about analytics and how it's like, well, analytics has been, you know, it's been done for 50 years or whatever. And every time you ask, an NFL team about a certain new analytic trend,

they will find a way to say it was done 20 years ago or whatever. And a lot of times that's sort of specious reasoning, a lot of times they're just basically overgeneralizing. This is not overgeneralizing. All of this stuff that the Browns are doing and all of the stuff that, you know, even the Jets where they're just basically trading back on every pick this year, Belichick's been doing that for a decade and a half. I mean, that's the thing.

He's on to the next one. And the next one in his mind is veterans being undervalued in this, this and this way. and that's how they've built the meat of their roster. The two things I want to say about the Patriots, one, this is possible in part because of what Brady makes. And you can't just ignore that. The fact that he has a middle of the road quarterback salary allows them to fill out the edges of their roster. Let me get close to the microphone.

He has the same cap hit as Mike Glennon this year. Fuck my life. I hate everything about who I am and what I stand for. Oh, God. All right. So that part of it is true. and then the other part of it on my end that I really like is that they don't vilify anything. They change all the time, but nothing is ever off limits with the moves they're willing to make.

The signing that they did for Stefan Gilmore, the Packers would never do that. They just never would. And having something off the table for you is a bad way to build your football team. And that's why I appreciate Belichick because he'll never sit there and say, we don't do this because we're the Patriots. and I feel like that opens up every single avenue for them. They are the most flexible team, the most successful team. I mean, I just, they are constantly wowing me as far as what they're able to do team-building wise.

I mean, I think this is a weird thing to say, but I think that I would like to almost see them for five years without Brady. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's kind of what they're able to do. Because, you know, I wrote this last September, and I think about it whenever we're talking about the Patriots and roster construction, when Jacoby Brissette started for them, and they just absolutely destroyed the Houston Texans.

I would like to see Belichick have to pull the most important position from the scrap heap like that. You know what I'm saying? Like I would like to see, okay, well, I think that, you know, he was fascinated with the Wildcat in 2008, okay, when Ronnie Brown was doing it and Ricky Williams are doing it in Miami. And it would be really interesting to see what he would be able to do with the scrap heap at quarterback.

because, you know, in the late 2000s, he was obsessed with the Wildcat. That's actually one of the reasons he signed Tim Tebow a few years later. He loved what they were doing in Miami. If he didn't have... Because it torched them. Yeah, of course, of course. Belichick loves the things that destroy him. But it wasn't just that.

It was that it was the single wing, which, you know, Belichick loves football history. Yeah, it was football nerd shit, right? And so I would have been fascinating if you don't have Tom Brady, if you didn't have a system where Wes Welker and Randy Moss were destroying people. If you just had to have Belichick being creative, I'm curious to see what that would have looked like. I would have loved, just from a football nerd standpoint,

I would love to see Bill Belichick just like take over the damn chiefs right now. I want to see what he does. Part of me thought he wanted the Elven to play quarterback at some point last year. Like when they were down to him as the emergency guy, I know he doesn't want anybody to get hurt. But you got to assume there's part of his mind being like,

oh yeah, I could win with this. There's a lot of people, a lot of people in the NFL who think that that four games, suspension that Brady had. Belichick liked it for two reasons. Number one is it gave Brady four games off. And number two is that he got to say, okay, I get to tinker with this position. Because the problem with the 2008 season, which Brady went down with the ACL, is that there wasn't enough time to plan. You put in Matt Castle and he just sort of run a modified version of the Brady offense. They won 11 games. And they still won 11 games. What I'm saying is if you have an entire off

season to plan and say, we don't have a quarterback, that's when he starts running the single wing and playing Edelman at a quarterback. You know, that, that's, that sort of stuff. I mean, I think from a football nerd standpoint, I'm actually slightly disappointed. He's had such a good team around him, if that makes sense. No, it totally does. Okay, my five teams, no particular order. I think the five best plans in the NFL, Cleveland, Seattle, Dallas, Oakland, New England. New England, which we already discussed. I have a couple of those on mine. I have Dallas and

Cleveland. I don't have the Raiders. I knew you'd have them. I wanted to discuss a couple other things. I have Atlanta. And then the one that, you know, I had high on. my list if I was going to do it an order would have been Tennessee, which you did not have, and I'm curious to talk to you about that. Sure. So I think Dallas and Tennessee are vaguely similar. We're just looking at different times in the building process because what Dallas did and it's what Tennessee is doing, if you just take Marcus Mario out of the equation, and I know that's hard, but you have to do it right now. What Dallas did was they realized that the line and bulk is what you can build everything else out from. And Dallas and Tennessee both realized this they invested first round

picks into their line and then they built everything else outward. And I think you just have to, Jerry Jones basically took four years. And this was, by the way, in an era in which everyone was saying the line doesn't matter. All it matters is the quarterback. Passing was going up. I think we're in the sixth straight year of record passing numbers. And Jerry Jones said, I'm going to get offensive linemen. I'm going to get Tyrone Smith. I'm going to get Travis Frederick. I'm going to get Zach Martin, I think there's a lot to be said for the ability to understand that that was important. I think John Robbins learned the same lesson. So this is not about leaving Tennessee off the list. I love John Robinson. I've talked about this many times. I'm just saying that Dallas has not only

built through bulk and built through the line and built through toughness, but they are a little further along in the plan. All right. Let's talk about the Cowboys for a second. Then I'll get to why I think that Tennessee is actually better. I totally agree about Dallas. And you know no one loves that kind of plan more than I do. And they spent the same type of resources. I asked you on the phone the other day if Dallas was going to be number one for you. That's how. And I'll give you the reasons why. Okay. I love drafting those three guys. I love watching it. It has been excellent. And I feel like they've seen that plan provide them with success in two different ways. One was to prop up Tony

Romo. That's what they wanted to do it for originally. Yep. Was to say, all right, this is, we have Romo. Let's insulate him. Let's make this a juggernaut for the last four years of Romo's career. And it worked. That 14 offense was damn, damn good. And then now that same insulation that they wanted to have for the end of Romo is what's allowed Dak Prescott to come in and hit the ground running. So I think that the fact that that one singular plan had two different outcomes that were both excellent, they should get all the credit in the world for that. The one, and the one reason, and Dallas would be my number five if we had to rank them, their lack of a of a good pass rush these last couple of years has been really disappointing

they have mismanaged the cap miserably over the reason in recent years and that's why there was an exodus of free agents this year and not any recourse to bring anybody else in that's my problem is that the cupboard is so bare on defense because some of the mismanagement that's going on it's hard to deal with where i think that tennessee has become kind of a better version of the dallas plan even if they're not quite as good on a personnel level you don't know I mean, it's the old Mike Tyson. Everyone's got a plan until they get punched the mouth. You don't know what's going to happen when these guys start becoming expensive.

You don't know what's going to happen. So what I'm saying is we see this now. Dallas could have won the Super Bowl last year. Could have gotten to the Super Bowl last year. Tennessee just hasn't gotten to that point where I've seen them build a juggernaut. That's the only thing. That's totally fair. But what I like in terms of what Tennessee has done is that they filled out the margins in a way that is responsible.

Tennessee went out and signed some guys this year. They went and got Logan Ryan. They went and got Jonathan Siprian. They're still third in the league in Cap room. They have $43 million. And it's not as if they're not spending in free agency. They're using it as a tool. I just think they're doing it in a smart way.

Assigning like Ben Jones, who they brought in last year because they wanted to go from the worst center playing the league to middle of the road. And that's what they get. Now they have like a top eight center. He's 11th in average salary among centers. He got $7.5 million guaranteed. That's an excellent deal. That's the type of contract that allows your offensive line to coales.

The Logan Ryan deal. He's making $8.6 million this year. I know that he was the third corner and we had this conversation. He's 17th in cornerback cap hit this year. You'll do that every time. And when we discussed last week with Chris Harris and the ability to move inside out, he's a very valuable guy in the way that corners are currently used. I just think they're using every avenue plus how often they've traded it back

and what they've done with that capital. I just love what they've done at pretty much every single level, except the coaching staff that they've hired. That's my only problem. But in talent acquisition, it's pretty damn good. 2017, Cowboys Cap's actually pretty good. Sean Lee, it's $7 million. It is now.

Scandrick at 5.2, Frederick at 4.4. Cole Beasley at 4.5. I mean, I just think that there's, Dan Bailey's making $4 million. What's that about? The moving on from Romo, it's going to get better now, and the cap is exploded. The cap is exploding and Dak Prescott making. less than a million dollars. Exactly. It's pretty good. They had no money up until this year, and that's why they had to lose guys. So the fact that your entire secondary has to go and you've got

to figure it out on the fly, those are the type of things they haven't been able to help because of the choices they've made money-wise over the last five seasons. Right. I agree. I just think that the Cowboys plan has come to fruition, and I enjoy what I'm seeing. All right, so let's get to the team we each have on our own list that the other doesn't have. Let's start with Seattle for you. I mean, I know that we talked about a little bit earlier in the show, but why do you think that even right now, their plan stacks up with anybody else's? Because they're still contenders and they've had to pay a lot of guys. Yeah, let's just start in 2012 and, and sort of the beginning of the Schneider Carroll era, which began two years earlier, I think. They identified a couple of

things. Number one, they identified that tall cornerbacks, tall physical cornerbacks, with long arms, the ability to defend the back shoulder throw, that those things were going to stop the pass-happy era of NFL football. And I think that, you know, a couple, by 2014, basically, tall cornerbacks were extremely overrated and a couple of teams did well by going the other way. And it's kind of much of five, ten guys. But, you know, to go out and get Richard Sherman, to go out and get Brandon Browner, I mean, to realize that that was the way to do it is, first of all, one of the greatest team-building strategies of the last decade and maybe the last 20 years. They won a Super Bowl on defense by figuring out that physicality would work.

Every other team was saying, oh, we got to get speed to match up with speed. We got to get these, you know, we got to have ultra athletes no matter the size on defense because the offensive would come too fast. No, the Seahawks said, we're going to have great athletes everywhere, but we're going to have height and length. and that was the way to do it. I don't think you can even overstate how much of an impact that had in the league in the five years after that. I mean, everyone ripped off Seattle after that.

So even if Seattle went 0-N-16 last year, I would have given them a lifetime achievement award for figuring that out and winning a Super Bowl. Beyond that, they were one of the first teams to win with a concentration of rookie contracts. Their Super Bowl win over Denver. I mean, Russell Wilson is making less than a long snapper. I understand there's some luck involved.

I understand they signed Matt Flynn. I get it. But they realize that you could go out and marry cheap rookie contracts with a lot of money in free agency and really have a lot to show for it. And so you go forward. They've managed the cap fine. All things considered. I mean, when you have that many players, they've managed the cap extremely well. Look what's happened to Detroit.

They lost in Dominican Sue because they just had a bunch of good players. and they were just like, oh, well, this suit thing will get to happen. And there's so many teams that manage the cap like shit without having any good players. That's the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you don't have cap room, but all your players are good, that's a life you can live. So, I mean, there's a million reasons that Seattle is still contending.

And I think to be able to keep this core together, not have a mass exodus, to not screw it up, to sign most of these guys to, I mean, I think Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett are still underpaid at this point. point. Michael Bennett, I'll tell you that. He'll be right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, so from the beginning of the regime until now, the way they've taken an incredible idea for a team and carried it into, and even drafting off of Spark, that's, that influenced the league. I mean, they, they innovated everything we say about Belichick and how he innovated this and that, Seattle did the same thing. Seattle innovated a ton of things that were subsequently ripped off. I mean, they are the second most influential team of this era of football.

Here's the reason they're not on my list. I feel like a lot of the moves they've made in the post-Super Bowl era have been problematic. The way they've treated their offensive line is terrifying to me. I mean, just to say, yeah, we'll figure it out. You shouldn't do that when your quarterback is as important as there it is. Just saying, it's not a good move. The other thing that, and part of that is the Jimmy Graham trade and the Percy Harvin trade. I feel as if they've made these big swings for guys that were luxury pieces,

and I just didn't like many of them. I think that the part of the Graham trade that's the most worrisome to me is to give away a guy like Unger. You know, an area that you need talent that you don't have and to go spend it on luxury past catchers and that's not really what you do. I just feel like those moves have worried me. But overall, I agree with you. I mean, the way they've built that defense is remarkable. It's absolutely amazing.

Yeah, the Seahawks won the Super Bowl, 43 to 8 with Percy Harvard on the roster. I wonder how much they would have won by if they hadn't had Percy Harvard on the the team. I mean, I think they would have been just fine. Yeah. No, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, that, I don't like that. I don't like that, I don't like that. We have everything else under control. Let's go trade tons of picks. The, the, the, the, the, the Patriots are doing that right now. No, they're not trading first round picks for, like,

they're multiple picks. They just did it. They traded one first round pick. What was the Brin and Cook? For Brandon Cooks, yes. Percy Harvin was the, was as good as Cooks was. But what was 2011?

What was Percy Harvin's contract at that point? I'm looking it up. It was not what Brandon Cooks is making right now. I promise you that. It was not a million and a half dollars. Oh, I understand, but they're going to have to resign them. That's not true at all. They have two years of him

They're going to let him walk. They're going to let him walk two years later. I think that's kind of the moves they're making right now is they're saying we're not going to over pay guys. We want mid-range contracts. By the way, his option next year is 8.4 million. So he explores a first round pick.

He was the 20th pick. I understand that. I understand that. That's still under market value. You're still getting two years of under market market value for him. Harvin and Graham were both coming off extensions when they got traded.

So they're not as valuable. They're not even close to as valuable. So not only, only you giving up the draft capital, you're giving up the gap in between, there's an even larger gap between that rookie salary scale and the guy you're paying. So you're getting hit doubly bad. I disagree with you. I mean, I think that Brandon Cooks is going to be expensive next summer. I think they're going to resign them. Why would you trade a first round pick for two years of a guy? We will see if they resign him. There's no way to know what they're going to do

with all those guys. I will not pencil that in. I could absolutely see them doing it. I'm not going to pencil that in. They're going to flip cooks. They're going to flip cooks next summer for like 11 first round picks. That's the thing. I mean, who knows what they're going to do? I understand that. But what I'm saying is, I just, I think that the Harvin trade at the time was defensible. He got, he was extremely injured. You know, he started to get weird on us right after the trade. You can't really project those things. I think you can project those things to a certain degree. I think it's a risky move. I think it's the type of move I would have loved at that time. That's why I don't run the Seahawks. The people who ran the Seahawks, the people who ran the Seahawks,

Alex did it and now they're still contenders five years later. That's because what they did three years earlier. We just talked about that. I like that part. I don't like what's come next. That's why they're not on my list. The next team that's on my list that's not on yours is Atlanta. And I think that I love the way they've drafted and the way they've built.

And you see kind of a trend with the teams that I like and the teams that are on my list. It's the group that's doing multiple things. And Atlanta, I like what they've done in terms of the guys they've gone after in the draft and when. You know, the early parts of the draft have been reserved for corners, past rushers, and the middle parts are guys that I think are undervalued in certain ways. Getting Tevin Coleman and Devante Freeman when they did. Mid-round running backs with defined skills and understanding how to use those running backs.

Using a third round pick and a fourth-round pick on Dion Jones and Devondry Campbell, speedy linebackers that have defined skills but are undervalue for certain reasons. They've done that all the way across the board, and then they've filled it out in free agents. with need spots. Alex Mack is the best example. I think what I've learned is I just like teams that sign free agent centers because it usually works out.

Oakland is another great example. I'm not participating in a free agent center discussion. That's fine. You don't have to. It's worked out for a lot of teams. I love Atlanta. We talked about Atlanta at Nazium last week. Tom Dimitrov is a fantastic general manager.

I just like the other five guys I have here a little bit more. I mean, I think that Vic Beasley is one of the best draft picks the last five years, and I think he's a franchise changer on defense. And when we talked, we had a, when we were doing last week our most valuable non-quarterbacks for the next five years, I had floated by Mays that Vic Beasley was on, might be on my top five. He was eventually not in my top five, but that's how much I think of Vic Beasley and his athleticism. And the fact they've been able to, you know, in just a short time under Dan Quinn,

retool really quickly that defense. Yeah, it's like the identity. I like the identity of the team overall. I feel like the weapons are well distributed, well paid, that you've been able to get a lot of them as a result. The defense, I love it. I love the speed. I love the way they play.

And just like going to Dantari Po this year. That's the type of thing I like. One year deal, really low risk, fill out your roster with the free agency dollars that you have, but build with a certain identity through the entire draft. And that's what they do. And that's why I like where they're going. Belichekian.

Yeah. Works for me. deal. Oakland is self-explanatory. Self-explanatory, but let's get into a little bit because I feel like Oakland is, there are a combination of two of these overall philosophies in my mind. They're the Wheeling and Dealing team to a certain degree when you look at a lot of the contracts they've signed, but they also were forced almost without a choice to tear it down when McKenzie got there. I was looking it up earlier today.

You know, there were $26 million over the salary cap when he took over? and that's remarkable. To be that mediocre and to be that far over the cap is really impressive. You know, what's funny to me is there was, there's always been,

and this has occurred in the last six or seven years, the, my old colleague John Clegg used to talk about this all the time as far as salary cap management, that there was this wave of guys, John Idzik is a good example,

who was brought in to clear the salary cap. Yeah. And then as soon as he cleared the salary cap and he lost, he was just fired. And so it was like, There was never. It's like an accountant.

He's a very public-facing accountant. Yeah, right, exactly. And so it's like, we'll manage the cap and then start building. And so then you clear the cap, you get rid of all the good players. You go like three and 13 and then you just get fired for losing. And it's like, well, wait a second. Wasn't I just supposed to clear the cap? So Reggie McKenzie is a good example of a GM whose team stood by him and said, okay, you're going to have a major terror night.

And there were a lot of questions about that. You know, I think we all talked about how Reggie McKenzie was probably the executive of the year last year. maybe you give it to Dimitrov, but I would probably give it to McKenzie. I would have done it two years ago for McKenzie. That would be the difference for me is I think that Dimitrov was, McKenzie had a very good offseason two years ago. Yeah, but I mean, they won. They won big this year.

Sure, of course. And that's what voters look at all the time is, you know, went from six wins to 12 wins. So I think that the McKenzie, maybe three or four years ago, I don't think remember the heat he was under. And there was rumors, weren't they going to bring in Mike Holmgren at one point? Yeah, there was a lot of names floating around. I mean, it seemed like he was done, and it was totally unfair.

Yes. Because not only was he taking over a cap situation that was totally untenable, he didn't have his first round pick that year because of Palmer, and the second round pick the year after. So he's not working with a full deck draft-wise, and he has to worry about clearing the entire books. So there was just no way for him to succeed quickly. And then the first year he really had every pit of draft capital to work with

was 2014. is that the best draft of the last five years? Yeah. Cleo Mac, Derek Carr, Gabe Jackson. Works for me. Yeah. Eventually you have to hit on those guys. Yeah.

I mean, they were the backbone of a team that they could very easily, you know, they're going to take the Kansas City Chiefs spot in the AFC championship game this year. And then you fill out with free agency. Rodney Hudson is an excellent signing. Coletio Semolet is a attitude changing signing by bringing him in. even getting Donald Penn. That's what's been interesting and impressive to me about the Raiders building that offensive line,

is that if you look at Tennessee, multiple first round picks, look at the Cowboys, three first round picks, and Lyle Collins, who was a first round talent. With Oakland, they did it all through free agency.

They did it with two big money signings and one scrap heap signing, and it has worked out beautifully for them. Do you know who Oakland's pick to the Bengals in 2012? You know who the Bengals got with that? Giovanni Bernard, right? Drake Kirkpatrick in the first round

Oh so they're 13 second round pick was Giovanni Bernard Yeah sorry about that That's I thought it was confused Yeah Kurt Patrick yeah that makes sense Because that that's exactly what it wasn't the first round I mean that trade is amazing I mean for them to the Bengals

To get recoup that for Palmer Palmer was thought of as a thing back then I mean yeah And then the Cardinals traded nothing for him I know That was amazing Yeah it's a great trade I would say it's probably the best trade

What's funny about that is there's a lot of people in the league who really, really shorted Palmer when he was a raider. Because they thought they, they were, I had heard from a handful of executives that that year, maybe, you know, a couple years after that injury, that he was still a little bit hesitant about stepping up in the pocket and stuff like that. People were worried about his elbow back then too, remember? Yeah, but this was a little bit later in Oakland. This was just about hesitation from being injured so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and then he got to Arizona. And by the way, as you said, Arizona paid almost nothing for him.

And he was, he was back to being himself. So the, the Raiders played it as poorly as you possibly can. Yeah. And then they played it about as well as you possibly could over the last three years. They've done a remarkable job. And then the last one for both of us, Kevin, I think is maybe the most fascinating topic in conversation in this entire thing. And that's what Cleveland has done.

And I know that it's become just easy and pretty. cliche almost to say, oh, the Browns are being so smart, da-da-da. The Browns are being so smart. I mean, they've done a really, really good job. And if you should get points for sticking with your plan, they deserve a lot of points. I think two things about the Browns. They're one of my top five plans because acquiring draft picks, especially mid-round picks in this era is really important, because you should wait on a quarterback in the top 10 or top 15 of the draft until you're absolutely sure.

As we discussed earlier, the Kaiser pick doesn't offend me. it doesn't end the rebuild or accelerate anything because they had 500. Yes, they had 500 picks this year. Okay, and they'll have 500 picks next year. So I wasn't offended by that. I think that the second part of this is that if this spreads, and I've written about this a couple times, if this spreads,

then the league like has to change everything. Like, because tanking in the NFL would screw with competitive balance so much. Yeah. That you really can only have one or two teams doing it at all times. But we haven't gotten to that place yet. They did it when it was still allowed. They've done it in a very efficient way.

And now it's time. You know, this is the year where they spent a little bit of money in free agency. It wasn't about clearing the decks of moderately priced veterans in order to have all the money later and also get worse simultaneously. Now they've tried to actively get better. And you might be shocked about this, but I liked the ways in which they've done it, considering they spent all their money on the offensive line. Yeah, I mean, that that move and that offseason suggests that they're, ready to to get in gear and start winning within the next two years. I'm, I'm fascinated to see

when they think the rebuild ends. Because, you know, you could just become a hinky type and just sort of, you know, rebuild in perpetuity until you get fired. And so I think that it, what, what impresses me, I've said it many times in this podcast, I've said it in print, NFL rebuilds should always be shorter than you think, because the contracts aren't long enough, the careers aren't long enough. If you draft a star running back, you know, basically he's done by the time he's 28. So I think the window is always smaller than you think. And so

what impresses me about Deepaesta is and Sashi Brown, as they made moves to self-season, would suggest that within the next year or two, they're going to try to win games. And you know how the Cowboys infrastructure was designed to bolster Romo, but it ended up promoting

and projecting DAC? I think that's their thought process. Let's have the infrastructure first. And then let's use that for whoever the quarterback is to have a springboard. A lot of these teams will get the quarterback and then they'll try to build something around him. They've done the opposite. They've tried to make the situation as cushy as it could be for whoever steps into it. And I like that.

I think that is the route you should choose if you're not excited about the quarterbacks. Cody Kessler, 92 rating last year. And they didn't have nearly the infrastructure they do now. So I like what they got going. What if I started, if I joined a Cody Kessler hive, would I be the, is that just me right now? Yeah. Yeah. Kessel Island is occupied by just you, buddy.

You can stake your flag right in there. That's all you on claim territory. I'm thinking about it. Hey, that's fine. I like the Sean Kaiser coming out. If he ends up being the guy there, I think he could be fascinating. And they sign guys, you know, Kenny Britt is there. They go get Joku.

And it's the types of players that are even trying to. Kenny Brits there. Kenny Britt is there. He's a solid receiver. I can't believe you told me this because this ruins me finding out that he is in Cleveland when I just saw him at training camp. Oh, yeah. He seems like the candidate. He seems like a camera.

I forget. Every year there's a couple guys where I just don't know that they're on the team until I see them at training camp. This is my favorite no plan for the Rams thing. I was looking at their deals this year. And I was looking at some of the contracts. And I was like, why Robert Woods? Just why? Like, why?

Robert Woods is like a $7 million cap hit this year. Kenny Brits is 5.6, why not just keep Kenny? Like, there is no argument whatsoever. Just be like, yeah, we're going to switch out Kenny Britt for Robert Woods. Let's do this. I was shocked that Robert Woods got such a big second contract because I didn't know he was getting a second contract. Yeah, the Rams really, the Rams and the Jets really take the cake in this conversation. All right, buddy. I think that's all we got. That is all we got, Robert. Thank you for joining us. We're going to be back next week with another ringer NFL show. Robert, do you want to apologize for the Breeze and Ryan thing?

No, I don't want to apologize. I will never apologize. Are you going to apologize in January? Do you want to apologize for your Chiefs point when they win like six games this year? Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. The Chiefs, the point is they're going to win six games. Yeah.

The Chief's point is infallible because I'm shorting them. Yeah, there's no way for you to be wrong. There's another, there's only in other dimensions. will we ever find out what would have happened if the chiefs went all in? That's great positioning, Kevin. I love how you always put yourself in a good spot to succeed. I really appreciate that about you. I'm like Belichick.

I've always made that comparison. Hidden yardage. All right. Thank you for joining us. We'll be back next week. Thanks for listening. Thanks, guys.