The Ringer NFL Show - Is This Patriots Panic Different Than Before? Plus, the 49ers vs. Lamar, the Embarrassing Eagles, and More Week 13 Reactions | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: December 2, 2019

After a loss to the Texans, is it finally time to worry about the Patriots? We also discuss where the Texans sit among AFC contenders after Sunday night’s win (2:00). Then, we give our takeaways from the Ravens-49ers game before getting to Stock Up, led by the sneaky Bills and surging Titans, (23:15) and Stock Down, led by the Eagles. Finally, we throw challenge flags on the NFC East and predict tomorrow’s headlines (45:50). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just say, hey, Google, to get started. This is the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? Robert Mays, huge day. of the NFL, but I would be, we'll miss if I did not point out that Hugh Jackson has emerged, according to Bruce Feldman, as a strong candidate to be Herm Edwards, offensive coordinator at Arizona State. So we have a ton to get to, but Hugh is back. That sounds like where

Hugh Jackson would end up, right? That sounds like Hugh Jackson's fate in the NFL world, in the football world. I saw one first take last week, and I've seen him on some of the Fox shows, and it just seems like he keeps going on these shows and being dumped on. He's available. He's available. He's available and also just the host, whoever it may be, they just keep making fun of him. And it can't be, he has to be sitting there. I can't, I can't keep doing media. Who is recommending to him that he go on these shows?

I think that, I mean, I can't believe we're ever stopping talking about Hugh Jackson. But I think that he probably is just sort of bored. He's a nice guy. He's a nice person. And he goes on these shows and all of a sudden he's talking about, you know, how he screwed up. It's fine. It's no big deal.

We all make mistakes. That's great. All right. Speaking of screwing up, we are going to start the show off by talking about the New England Patriots losing a game that looks much prettier in the final score that it actually was for most of this. I think that the two biggest games of the day were Patriots, Texans and Niners, but Ravens. We're going to get to both of those games off the top here. But let's start with the Patriots. I don't want to go too far because it seems like we do this every single year, where the Patriots will lose a game or two in November.

early December, we'll wonder what's wrong with the Patriots. The answer will be nothing and they'll win the Super Bowl. Is there anything about their struggles tonight and some of their struggles, mostly on offense, recently, that leads you to believe this version of Patriots panic and Patriots' problems might be a little bit different. Great question. So my entire stick here was going to be, I was going to let you say Tom Brady was washed and I was going to pretend out a bad connection.

And then we were going to move on in the next segment. A couple of history lessons. So the Patriots have been mortal, not every year of their 20-year dynasty, but in most years. So last year, last November, they lost to the Tennessee Titans by 24 points. Before that, they got completely, completely blown out or outmatched by the Detroit Lions. Then last December, they lost back-to-back games to the Miami Dolphins and Pittsburgh Steelers. The Steelers was the game where it went in. to, that's where it went into full blown, like, what's going on here is after the Steelers game.

And the big thing with the Miami miracle was, well, now the Patriots aren't going to get home field. How are they ever going to beat Patrick Mahomes? So we have short memories with the Patriots. And I think that the one thing that I keep coming back to is the Patriots, again, are like a casino. You can beat them, but they have so many tiny edges that eventually over the long run, they are going to win out. you're going to have games like you did Sunday night. You're going to have games where they took, I mean, you're not actually going to have games because it's never happened before.

But this is a situation where there were two team planes because of the flu bug that was going around. So Andrew Callahan reports that the notable sick patriots included Stefan Gilmore, Danta High Tower, Kyle Van Nooy, Jamie Collins, and Isaiah win. They were warming up as if it was any other game. That's what Callahan said in his tweet. And so if you were before the game to say that those guys, guys were going to be so sick they were going to be on a different plane, you would say they're going to have trouble tonight. And that's what happened. There were a couple things within this that I thought were interesting. And to answer your question, by the way, before we go on,

are we worried about the Patriots? Not really. And not, not any more than we were last year. My answer is not really. Super Bowl. Yeah, exactly. And so a couple things. So Mike Reese tweeted that that was really interesting. He said that the first half tonight was the lowest completion percentage of Tom Brady's career, 36%. He's been. exactly 7 of 19, which he was tonight in the first half, two other times, but both times the Patriots had rallied from

halftime deficits to win those games. That obviously didn't happen tonight. He did not have a miraculous turnaround. Now, he put up over 20 points and he looked generally like a Tom Brady type performance in the second half, but he didn't exactly come out and dunk on all the doubters in the second half.

The wide receivers are a problem. Their offensive identity right now is a problem. You saw on the sideline Tom Brady yelling at his receivers in a way we've seen him yell a lot of times because, you know, and this is something I remember being in a press car, and he likes, he prides himself on being a tough guy to play with when things are going wrong. And I think Tom Brady is trying to get receivers where they need to be. He trusts is such a big factor for him. He has Julian Edelman and not much else at this point. Senu obviously drops that that huge pass. Who knows what

that does to their connection there. Jacoby Meyer seems to be coming along. But I think that right now, their offensive identity is a real work in progress. And they had some success, I guess, with the run game. They had some success with Brady scrambling. Maybe they can just start a little read option game. But I don't know. It's right now, I think that there's two ways they look at it. Number one is they have a lot of problems.

And number two is that they have between Bill Belichick, Josh McDaniels, and Tom Brady, the greatest problem solvers in the history of the sport. I thought Michelle DeFoy said something interesting before the game. She was talking about the conversation she had and the broadcast crew had with Brady, and he was talking about the things that are most important with offense. I can't remember the exact wording,

but it was something like reliability, consistency, all that stuff. All Tom Brady wants is guys where he knows where they're going to be and he knows he can throw them the ball. And with a lot of these players, they're either new or they're rookies. When you think about Nikil Harry, Jacoby Myers, the rookies, Sunniu just got there. So he doesn't have those factors in place with most of these guys. But the past catching options problem is not a new problem.

problem, right? So if we're trying to go down the problems that have been new with the Pats, that's not. If you look back at what they had last season, you're in a similar boat. No Josh Gordon. It's really just, when you think about the degree to which they were relying on Philip Dorset late last year, it seems like that could be coming back again. I'm not worried about that side of it. The offensive issue that I'm concerned about, and I'm not worried about Tom Brady either. So somebody else can throw dirt on Tom Brady. It's not going to be me. The problem that I think they have on offense right now, that they have not had over the last couple years when their passing game is stalled and they've lacked weapons, is they

cannot run the ball consistently when they want to. They were fine tonight and they averaged something like 4.7 yards of carry with their backs. I also think the Texans run defense is not that stout. And I think that they were devoting a lot of resources to stopping the pass because New England has thrown the ball an incredibly high rate this year. So when you look at the teams like last year especially, right, that that were able to kind of overcome either Brady being a little bit off or their passing game being a little bit off. They could just destroy teams on the ground in December. With their third string running back in there now, I have concerns, or excuse me, their third string center in there now.

I have concerns about them being able to do that. They have not run the ball well all season. They're 21st in Russian DBOA. One of those, like you said, they're a great problem-solving team. When they can kind of go back and forth and vacillate between these versions of themselves offensive, that's when they become very dangerous because they have answers to every problem. Now, if they can't turn to the running game when the weather gets bad, when they want to lean on it late in the season, do they have as many answers on offense? The answer will probably be yes, but I do think that's a slight difference from the team we've seen over the last couple years.

Yeah, so Tom Brady, this is also via Mike Reese. Tom Brady was averaging 3.25 seconds to throw. He had not had a game at any point this season, averaging. more than three seconds to throw. So obviously the passing game was a little bit disjointed tonight. As you said, the resources were put towards stopping that. And I think that, you know, I've done so much. I mean, I've been obsessed with Tom Brady and his success over the past, you know, seven years since I started covering the NFL.

And you learn all of these anecdotes about Tom Brady and what a science he thinks past catching is. And I remember talking to someone like Tony Gonzalez is a good example who worked out with Brady in the offseason. And he used to talk about how if Tom Brady would throw a 30-yard pass at UCLA in the summer and it was half an inch off of where he needed to be, he was so mad at himself because he thought that if it was, he needed to be in exactly the right place for yards after catch to be maximized. Stuff like that. I mean, just, when Brandon Lafell told me the story, I talked about it all the time where he would throw the ball into the sun at just the right end. angle just so the receiver gets used to staring into the sun to catch the ball on a sunny day in Miami or something, stuff like that. Right. And I think that the more he goes on with past catchers that he is not accustomed to, the more I think that he gets, he gets frustrated and they have to figure

that out. I don't know how you figure out that chemistry. I don't know if that's practice. I don't know if that's just, you know, throwing these guys as much as you can in games to figure it out. I don't know what the answer is. Obviously, he was extremely frustrated two weeks ago in that press conference. I think a lot of people talked about it. The body language police came out. I think Tom Brady will figure it out. But I think for a guy who sees throwing and catching as a science like he does, having a depleted receiving core. And I think that's kind of what you'd call it right now is a huge problem. As I've said, as you've said, this has been overcome before. It will be overcome again. I still think the Patriots are probably going to be in the AFC championship game. And I think that, you know, I wrote this last week.

I think the season will come down to a handful of plays against Lamar Jackson. That's it. That will be, we talk over and over again about their flaws and their holes and how do they score points or whatever. I think this is an historically good defense when they're not, they don't have the flu. And I think that they will go into Baltimore probably because they're not going to have home field advantage. And they're going to have to play situational football against Lamar Jackson. And there will be maybe four, five, six plays that will determine whether or not they are better than the Baltimore Ravens.

That is it. I think so too. And I think they'll end up getting the two seed if you think about the path that the chiefs in. Yeah. They still have the chiefs. They still have the chiefs next week. Even if Kansas City beats them, then the Patriots would have to lose again and the chiefs would have to win out. I like the bill.

The bills are playing well. I still don't think the bills are going to beat the Patriots in New England. So I think that the past will probably get the number two seat. The only thing I'd say about the defense, I completely agree with you. I think they'll be fine. And we can get to why I think the Texans played well in a second today. The weakness they've had over the last couple seasons when a team made. when a team makes them do this,

is a third linebacker's struggle in coverage. And we saw that today. You know, Van Nuoy had a rough moment on that touchdown to Johnson, and then Roberts had to tackle him in order to stop another touchdown. So a team that can kind of hammer them in that area over and over again, I think that's one of the better ways to go about attacking them. So if you can find a way to get those guys single thing, get those guys in man coverage against a past catching back,

I think that's a really good recipe. But outside of that, I think the defense will be absolutely fine. Yeah. Okay. Let's get to Houston. Nice win from there tonight. Yeah, I really, we were talking on Slack a little bit, me and Ben and Meg, just about what we want to write tomorrow and everything else.

And Ben was asking me about the Texans. And I said, I think the Texans are a frustrating team with an incredibly high ceiling. That's how I feel about them. It's how I felt about them for most of this season. And I think you saw the ceiling tonight. You know, when you can have Fuller, I know Fuller didn't pull that touchdown in, but it almost did. When you have Fuller and Stills is your two and three and you're playing against a team that plays a lot of man coverage and they're double teaming Hopkins on pretty much every single play,

and you have those guys manned up, this is a team that can take advantage of you of that. Because you have the Sean Watson that can make plays outside of structure. You have a guy that can make plays down the field. You know, this team can really hurt you based on the overall past catching talent they have, especially when they get Duke Johnson involved. So this is the type of Texans team, I think, is in play every single week. We just don't always see it for certain reasons. And I think one of the bigger reasons this year is that they haven't had stills,

and Fuller for most of the year. This is the first time in six weeks. Neither of those guys were on the injury report. Is there any impulse for you to put the Texans right now in the AFC contender group that we talk about every single week? Are they still a couple low for you? There's still a couple low for me just because I don't think they have the guys on defense. I know they played pretty well against a struggling Patriots offense today,

but you talked about how long time Brady had to throw. Their pass rush is not very good. You know, I know they got a decent game out of 54 today. I can't remember his name. One of the guys they got in the Seahawks trade, he showed a little bit of juice as a pass rusher. But without what, I think they really struggle. It was nice to get Roeby back, obviously, at the really huge pick six. So, oh, Jacob Martin, that is the guy's name.

I'm sorry, I'm getting so old. Getting Roeby back was nice. I think having some consistency with the personnel in their secondary is going to be big for them. But I still just think that their defense is a problem. And their offense, it works and fits and starts. honest. Despite the talent that they have, they've really had some stretches this year where they haven't looked that explosive. But I do think at their best, they're very frightening. And the amount of times where Watson seemed to be on the same page with Hopkins when they saw a pressure look

coming, that's something that didn't happen last season and didn't happen early this season. They've really figured out how to attack teams when they're going to bring a ton of heat after them. And I tweeted it's like the happy learned how to put moment for them. If they can do that, then I think that they have answers to a lot of problems. So, well, I think their ceiling is very high. I still think they have the lowest floor of all of these teams. That's an interesting thought. I think that for me, first of all, I thought it was really, really interesting.

I think it was the Ian Rappaport report this morning that JJ Watt might not be done for the season. It's huge. That's a really interesting. That's a really interesting wrinkle for January. I don't think that's a difference between them being the fourth best team in the F. and the first or second, but I think that's a really,

really interesting thing to have hanging over the next month of the season. I also think that when I think about the elite talent they have, Deshaun Watson, D'Andre Hopkins,

still throw JJ Watt in there. I think about how many steps forward they'll take in the offseason with a new GM. Oh, wait. Do we really want to get into this right now?

Do you really want to upset me? Which is two 30 seconds on it. Go. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't any sense whatsoever. And I talked to people who know more about this than me earlier this morning, and they were just kind of talking about some of the reasoning behind it. I get some of it. And I guess the final conclusion is that with O'Brien and Easterby running the show,

they think that they can do things in the Patriots mold that wouldn't require Casario. But how many things have the Texans done personnel-wise over the last year that the Patriots would do? Zero. They have done none. The Patriots would not do anything the Texans have done over the last year. And I get that it's not one guy running the organization. You have a director of player personnel. You have the same cap guy you've had for a long time. But you need someone in the building that tells the head coach, don't do this.

Because a coach's motivations and the motivations of a general manager are often competing. The coach only cares about getting the best players on the field right now at the expense of the franchise's long-term health. And do you really want a coach picking the players in free agency? See, if he has final say, he has final say. It doesn't matter what kind of process leads up to the moment where that decision is made. You still have someone that is ill-equipped in that side of the NFL to be making decisions about a team that has a top five quarterback on the last year of his rookie deal.

I don't think they can get anyone because so much of the power currently resides with O'Brien, and that was probably the mistake at the beginning. But this is still not how a contender should be run. That's it. That's my rant. Okay. Do you think that's fair? I think everything's a little overblown.

They have cap guys. They have, you know, I'm mostly joking about the extremes of this, although the Clowny trade was not all that encouraging about this. They'll be able to kind of do business as usual. I just think that is not having a GM better than having a bad GM? Yes. But I think that there's, you know, there's five, six, seven, eight guys in this league who are GMs who make a real, real deal.

difference. And if you get one of those guys and you can get one of those guys, you can find those guys, you know, it's easy to to sort of figure out who the rising stars in front office, in front offices are. And I think that they're doing themselves a disservice way not trying to find one of those guys. That's what, that's, I feel the exact same way. I think this is a really good team. I think that they've gotten good players. You know, Tunsell is a good player. The Jeremy, Jerry and Conley having him on the roster and seeing what you can get out of him with most of his rookie deal paid for, I understand all that. If we had seen a year where this current iteration of the structure in Houston had done a good job, then I wouldn't care if they had a GM who gives a shit. But they have not done a

smart job. They have consistently not found value. And to keep rolling like this, I don't think is good for the long-term health of your franchise. It's, though having a GM probably is over. But when you're trying to be one of the best teams, the structure currently in place there is not giving you the best chance to win. That's all I'm saying. I have a big, big announcement. Bill O'Brien said that Deshaun Watson and DeAndre Hopkins came up with that trick play they ran. Oh, that's really fun. Yeah, we should talk about that. That was enjoyable. I like that a lot. I don't like to Sean Watson diving for touchdowns. Watson, Johnson, Hopkins came up with that. on a piece of paper and they handed to Bill O'Brien. So what exactly does Bill O'Brien do here?

I think Bill O'Brien's a pretty good coach. I really do. I think that maybe this should just keep happening for the rest of the season. I think Bill O'Brien does a good job as a head coach, but also I don't think a head coach should be your GM for any other team except the Patriots. He's a fine. He's a fine coach.

He's a fine coach who shouldn't have that much power. That's exactly right. A couple other coaches, you know, John Payton has. a lot of oversight in New Orleans. Andy Reid has a lot of oversight in Kansas City. The good coaches do. But they also, I mean, in New Orleans, it's a little murkier. But in Kansas City, they still have a general manager and they still have a smart

general manager, which I think is a good way to typically do things. Okay. Hey, is it murky in New Orleans? Is it murky in New Orleans because one of the front office executives also runs the basketball team? Do you mean the general manager also runs the basketball team? Yes. I do think that's why it's a little bit of murky.

That Mickey Loomis is just ran. I'm only talking about basketball and 25% of his press conferences. That's strange. I think that it's indicative that he's probably not making every decision out of the football team. Hey, dude, they got Jeff Ireland. Just bring in the heat. And he's done a good job.

I think that since he's gotten there, their personnel decisions have been very good. I tweeted this on Thanksgiving night. I said that when's the last time they made a serious misstep when it comes to the players they chose. Value is not always their strong suit. They have kicked the can down the road. with their giraffe picks and their cap for the last decade.

But players they've picked have worked out pretty consistently since they missed on Kobe Fleener a couple years ago in free agency. That's really the last one. So good for Jeff Ireland, good for Sean Payton. Before we move on, let's take a quick break. Hiring could be a slow process. Cafe Altura's CEO, Dylan Miskiewicz, needed to hire a director of coffee for his organic coffee company.

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game and an ugly weather situation in Baltimore. What were your takeaways from Ravens Niners? And do you think you learned anything substantial about either team today? I don't want to say I learned anything, but I came away maybe with renewed appreciation one I have already had in the past, but maybe I lost a little bit because of Lamar mania of how good the Ravens roster is and how good their infrastructure is. And you start thinking about somebody like, Justin Tucker, who we've forgotten is just historically good at kicking the ball. And he wins that game. He might be the best kicker ever. When you look at the top three in the AFC, that kind of thing matters. Them playing a game in the rain, kind of a weird game, creating turnovers, you know,

forcing Jimmy G to fumble, whatever. I mean, Jimmy G. like he was trying to give the ball away on some of those passes today. Listen, Marcus Peters didn't play the best game he's ever played. Earl Thomas had some weird plays there. This was not the dominating performance you've seen the last couple weeks from the Ravens offense or defense. But I came away impressed that they can win these types of games. I'm not surprised by it. I'm not surprised by anything with the Ravens at this point.

But I came away with it with a new appreciation for some of the supporting cast, I would say, for Lamar Jackson that maybe I hadn't thought about in a month or so. That's a great point. And then being able to keep Tucker almost in bubble wrap, he was pretty much like a p.at kicking robot over the last month or so. They barely needed him. They also have some of the best punt unit coverage, both punter and coverage in the NFL, and they never punt. Having those weapons is going to matter when you have to play on the margins like we talked about with New England. This is going to seem like a silly point, but it's something that has kind of comes to me over and over

again as I've watched the Ravens and definitely did today when they weren't dominating, but they were still doing enough. There are a very hard team to stop from getting. getting 10 yards on four plays. And when you do stop them from getting 10 yards, they're still able to put up points because they have Justin Tucker. And I go, that's boiling down the sport to its simplest terms. But it's really hard to stop them consistently because they're just really good at creating positive plays in every single facet of the game.

They were that one play, I think it was probably in the second quarter, where they stopped Baltimore on a third and two. It was like created a fourth and two. And I was in a bar full of 49ers fans, and they were all cheering. And I'm like, all right, guys, easy. They're going to go for this. You didn't stop them. And they're going to get that.

And that was the completion to Nick Boyle. And that's the thing is that they just are so good at being able to churn out 12 yards in four plays. And at its essence, that's what the game is about. And they create tons of explosive plays. And obviously they have that side of it. But every time you think you have them, they seem to wiggle away. Sometimes with Lamar Jackson, it's literally, sometimes it's figuratively when it comes to a game you think you have in hand, and they just have so many ways to kind of kneel you and beat you at the end.

And that's what we saw today. So, again, not the most impressive performance from them, but in terms of just being a juggernaut like we've seen in recent weeks, but it was impressive. It was impressive in some other facets. Just remember, there are a lot of players in that team who were holdovers from a franchise that had to win with Joe Flacco. So just and that comes with a lot of different moving parts, okay? I saw a couple of things I thought were interesting. Number one, did you know this was the most, the winningest quarterback matchup in history?

In terms of what? In terms of a winning percentage, yes. Yeah, the winning percentage, 84% winning percentage of both these quarterbacks. I mean, that just speaks to kind of putting the individual talents aside, Lamar Jackson's better quarterback than Jimmy G. But that just speaks to the infrastructure. and coaching talent on the field as well. I mean, like, that's, you know, Lamar Jackson's the MVP, and he's done a great job,

but he also, as we talked about, has a really good supporting cast. I thought that was pretty fascinating. I also thought, you know, Kyle Shanahan is the play action god, but next-gen stats had this. When Lamar Jackson used play action on Sunday, he got 4.2 yards of average target separation. When he did not use play action, he got 1.8. And I think that this goes, again, to the Greg Roman offense and doing all these little things we don't talk about enough. And I think that if we talked about which quarterback is using play action most efficiently on Sunday, you'd probably thought it would be Jimmy G. But Lamar Jackson used it just as well.

So I thought that was pretty fascinating. He's using it on the season at a 58% clip. And I just think, again, it's just every single week I come away impressed by Greg Roman. Yeah, it's on the season. His play action numbers are actually worse than his non-play action numbers, which is a little bit. surprising considering their offense. He's completing 4.9% more of his passes without play action, and he's averaging 0.4 yards more per attempts without play action. That was before today. So maybe those numbers will shift a little bit, but they use play action a ton.

If you look at the numbers right now, the only guys that have used it more are Patrick Mahomes and Marcus Marriota, according to PFF. It's a huge part of their offense. So it's not surprising to me. Shannon might be the play action. Jimmy G is 8th at 30.2. So yeah, he may be the play action god but the ravens use it a ton because they're an efficient football team and that's what efficient football teams do smart things who would have thunk it all right let's get to a surprisingly smart team stock up the a fc wildcard teams let us start with the tennessee titans because they played today pretty weird game i mean it's obviously you look at the final score it's 3117 the titans it seems like it's a really impressive win uh in reality this was a 17 17 game with five minutes left and they

one because Adam Vittitary is bad now. Why is Adam Vintyrii still playing? I don't know. It's been a big problem. He missed two field goals today and he had one blocked that swung the game. And I know that's not technically just his fault,

but usually blocked kicks are more on the kicker than we tend to think, just because of trajectory. Chris Wessling had this. Derek Henry's last 16 games. 1,725 rushing yards, 20 total touchdowns. I like the way the Tennessee offense looks right now, man. I just think I like the way it's assembled because they just have so much size with their goal position players.

I think AJ Brown is going to be a good player. I really like him. Humphrey's got a little bit involved today. I think he's a good slot option for them with a real quarterback. And Henry's just such a battering ram. Their offensive line's pretty good. And their defense, I don't know what to make of them from a talent perspective. I think they're okay.

I really like the way they're coached. I mean, this is a team. that is probably going to make the playoffs right now if you're looking at it. Would you pick them over? Obviously, the bills are the number one wildcard team. The bills are pretty much in at this point. But outside of that,

is there anybody you think would get in over Tennessee? It doesn't seem like we're going that way. Can I say something? We keep doing this where, like, two weeks ago, we said the Raiders were going to make the playoffs based on their schedule. I'm so tired of being wrong about who, who the AFC wildcard teams are going to be.

I mean, the Steelers look really, really good. The Steelers are probably the other team, right, after today? Really good being relative, really good for playing what amounts to a third string quarterback and all that. So I think that the AFC wildcard race is equal parts, confusing, exciting, and ultimately, you know, whoever gets it will lose by three touchdowns in the... I think so, too. So let's say, I think Pittsburgh's the other team might throw out there.

That's, we'll get to the Steelers in a second. But no, listen, I really like this Titans. So do I. I mean, this is, they are being the best Titans they can be. I think so too. And I'll be curious to see what happens with them. I think we, I always try to spin things forward a little bit more than I should. But I think with the Titans, they didn't expect to really be here with Tannahill.

It's almost like a lucky accident. So I'll be curious to see what they end up doing next year. You know, they have like 37 million in cap space. They're going to carry a lot over. So I'd assume they'd. end up somewhere around 60, but they're going to need to figure out what they want to do with the quarterback. So a good chunk of that is probably going to go to Ryan Tannahill.

And we'll see what they are outside of that. I think they could use another playmaker on offense. This is probably Dlaney Walker's last season. They save almost $7 million against the cap if they cut him. So I would assume that he's gone. Can they find a playmaking tight end? Is that something they're looking for? Because for the most part, the rest of that offense comes back intact.

You have some young playmakers over there. I will be curious what they look like a year from now. But if they bring back Tannahill, I think the overall kind of structure and format of what they look like at this moment, it's pretty good. I can't really argue with it. And that's the first time I've been able to say that

about the Titans in a while. I don't want to go total revisionist history here and say Ryan Tannahill was some great quarterback and we should have seen this coming. But I will say that the number one thing with Tannahill was always health. And he played well. in spurts in Miami when he got some momentum,

when he was healthy, when he got to string a season together, he played well. And I think that the fact he's healthy, he's thriving, I don't think we should be totally shocked by this. I don't think so either. I think he's a talented guy,

and I think that there is a nice infrastructure around him right now. And being able to lean on Henry the way they can, play action game, some of the young pass catchers, it makes sense. It's not super shocking. But I still think he's playing better

than I've ever seen him. I mean, I was not expecting him. I didn't see it coming. I didn't. Yeah, I'm not, I didn't predict it certainly. And I thought that maybe when he got this starting job back, Matt back, it might go at some point back to Marioada. But I just, you know, if you put the puzzle pieces together, he had a rating three times in Miami over 90. It wasn't like he was Bortles here.

He just, he just, you know, played a weird franchise and some weird infrastructure with some weird weapons. and we didn't know Devon to Parker was the best receiver in football until he played the Eagles today. We'll get to that. All right. The other AFC wild card favorite that we should probably mention in stock up here is the Buffalo Bills. I know they played on Thursday, but it just seems like we should talk about that game. The Bills were one of those teams where they beat up on everybody that was bad and we still weren't sure how good they were. And they went in and they beat Dallas convincingly in Dallas in that game.

What do you think about the Bills right now? I think they're well coached. I think Josh Allen is good enough to make some plays. And I think that they made Jerry Jones cry. That's pretty good. That's a pretty good little Thanksgiving day. I agree with you on all fronts. I think that they're extremely well coached on both sides of the ball.

This is a name we did not throw out last week on the show when we were talking about possible head coaching candidates. On Tuesday, I think Brian Daibold's done an awesome job. His ability to kind of bring Josh Allen along the way that they have, think that the structure of their offense makes a ton of sense, given their personnel. I do think their staff has done an impressive job all around. We've talked all the time about how a defense is coached. I think they're a top five past defense, which makes you dangerous in any game, pretty much. They're still a year ahead of their projected timeline.

And I think that's important to remember when we consider the Bills. I know that Bills fans probably think this is some magical season and in a lot of ways it is. And maybe they keep riding this way and they keep getting better. and Alan keeps making plays and they knock somebody off. But they are trending so hard in the right direction. I know it's scary to say that sometimes because we want to ascribe some linear progression from these teams that's not always there. But I do think the pieces are in place for the bills to be on that path because they still

have a ton of money to spend next off season. They still have a really young core that they're not going to lose much of from this year to next year. So I do think another step forward is possible for them. But even if they don't take one, This team looks really good right now. They are still mathematically alive for not only the AFC East, but the number one overall seed.

Obviously, they're not going to get either of those, obviously, but it's amazing to think about, of course, but it's amazing to think that they are so close behind the Patriots that in week 14, they are still going to be eligible for those things. Yeah, and I just think that Josh Allen has done so much fun stuff. I think that he's getting consistently better, which is really fun. It's just been fun to watch his progression. He's struggled with the deep ball this year.

It's the last thing they need from him. But did you see that throw he had where he stepped up in the pocket? I tweeted about it. It just, I mean, that is just a rocket shot. And to be able to deliver that accurately, and I know that that's not what quarterbacking is necessarily, but it just seems like he's flashing more and more. And, you know, I went up there to talk to him about just playing the position

and how you get better at it. And I came away so impressed. and to watch that approach he's taken, translate his success on the field, it's just cool to see. It's cool to see a guy want to get better and take those steps to getting better. And I know he's like 24th in QBR or whatever, and that's fine. He's not a perfect quarterback. He's really had some areas where he struggled this year. But this is a team last season that without a historically bad Cardinals team would have had the worst offense in the NFL by a lot.

So to go from that to where they are right now, that's a serious step forward. and that's all you want to see from a young quarterback. You just want to see the guy get better in tangible ways. And he has done that. Yeah, I mean, I've been hugely impressed. And, you know, I think that any conversation in which we talk about who the best executive in 2019 was has to include Brandon Bean because some of his moves were just absolute home runs. I mean, even the ideas behind them, he knew what he had to do, whether that was, you know,

getting better at the offensive line with Mitch. Morse, getting more weapons for Josh Allen, getting more veterans. You know, he really believed in the power of Frank Gore in that offense. So I think that it's been a masterful team building job, masterful coaching job. And is Josh Allen going to be Patrick Mahomes? Certainly not. But I think that, you know, he's been as good as Josh Allen can possibly be in 2019. The John Brown-Coh-beasley thing, I think it's a great one-to punch.

They play well off of each other. I like the ideas there. I think that the outside of the Morse signing, just throwing as many darts as you could to try to find starters along the offensive line and do it cheaply. You know, Quentin Spain and John Feliciano aren't superstars, but they're functional starters, and they got them for pretty much nothing. They just tried to do it. It's another bad analogy here as many dice rolls as they could at that spot to try to find a group that can work together. And they've done that. They've done an excellent job building this team.

And again, they have one more go around next year to try to add the few fine. final pieces, hopefully you can get one more step forward from Allen and have this be a potential contender. So we'll see how much noise they can cause over the rest of the year, but I do think that they're trending very hard in the right direction. All right. One more stock up in the AFC wildcard picture. The Pittsburgh Steelers, man.

I don't know if you saw this, but I can't remember which defender it was. I want to say it was Cam Hayward was talking about how Tomlin just drew up a new defense at halftime. Yep. What Mike Tomlin has done this year is impressive? Straight high school. Yeah. That's what it is.

And I feel like what Mike Tomlin has done with a third string quarterback and then a third string quarterback for this defense to be as consistent as it has been and for them to kind of give the Brown so many problems in the second half today and stay alive in this race the way they have. I wrote them off. I thought that the Fitzpatrick trade was silly. I still don't know if I totally agree with it in terms of long term outlook because I didn't know how good they would possibly be. If they were picking in the top 10, you don't want to give that pick away. But they're not. They're seven and five team. they could potentially make the playoffs

and I just never saw that coming. I think I agree with the trade by now. I mean, seeing what this team looks like now, it's amazing. I think it was, you know, I've seen a lot of he'll make this point, but I think Colin Coward made it most succinctly on Sunday where he basically said,

this is the best Browns roster of the decade. And they got beat by a dire straits, Stewards team down to Duck Hodges as their quarterback. And it just shows you what a good franchise can do. against a franchise that is not a good franchise. Okay, good franchises matter. And ownership matters and coaching matters and GMs matter and all this stuff. And I think the Browns are still, you know, I think they're going to be able to recover from this season.

But I think that you just see the infrastructure and the difference between these two teams when Duck Hodges slash Mason Rudolph slash one game of Ben Rathesberger in which they got destroyed, team is probably going to make the playoffs. and the Browns with their really good roster talent and a quarterback who looked like he was the future of the sport this time last year and a really good GM, they're just not good enough. And I think it's a real lesson on how long this takes,

on how long it takes to turn a franchise around. And I mean, there's a million things. We could talk for another hour about what this season for Browns football says about a lot of things about football. But right now I'm learning that the Pittsburgh Steelers are the organization we thought they were. And at this point, the Browns aren't there. Yeah, Baker-Ra-Field started off 10 of 12.

There are a few deep incompletions late in a half when they were just trying to chuck it down and see what happens. One of those, he hits his hand. And I believe Cam Hayward's face mask and did not look the same for the rest of the game. He was wearing that glove and just their passing game went to shit.

And I also think that the Steelers made a couple really nice adjustments. What do you think about the Freddie Kitchens T-shirt? Do you have any comments? You know, I wouldn't. to University of Miami. And I kind of have to support any brash showing that is, you know, kind of psychological warfare.

I think that there were some very funny t-shirts from the Steelers end. It wasn't like this was limited to just Freddie Kitchens wearing a funny t-shirt. It was like a, you ever go on a beach vacation? Everybody's got funny t-shirts. It's kind of like that. Like, where did we all decide to get funny t-shirts for this game? Except he's an NFL head coach. I don't really care about it, but people seem to be upset.

Everyone's doing their own thing. I saw some ex-players who were upset. I'm okay with it. You know, the more you learn about University of Miami football and how many kind of ridiculous moves, teams pulled before games and Miami still my 50 points, you know, you kind of learned to shrug this stuff off. Yeah, I think so too.

I mean, a lot of people were upset about the Texans coming and whatever bank robber outfits they had today and then they end up winning the game. So I don't really mind it. But all right, one more here with stock up. Let's talk about the Bengals getting their first win. Good job, Bengals. Good job.

Andy Dalton coming back. All time touchdown leader in Bengals history, which if he hadn't gotten that because they benched him and he was two touchdowns away, I did not know that was a part of this equation. That would have been such a cold, cold move. What's up with the Jets, man? I don't know.

The Jets are so weird. The Jets have beat up two teams in consecutive games and then they come out and they get destroyed by the Bengals. I don't know. I cannot get a read on this Jets team. I have no idea. They've lost four straight games outright when they're a favorite. They've not done that since 1994 and Pete Carroll was the coach.

So maybe they should just never be the favorite. Maybe they should just petition Vegas to never have them be the favorite. I got to tell you something. I don't think they're going to have that problem anytime. soon. I don't know, man. I mean, that was, that was a tough one. It was, I just, I just don't know.

I mean, congratulations to Zach Taylor. I mean, I thought this was, I didn't think this was possible. I didn't think it was either. Dalton played okay. I mean, the touchdown pass he had the first one. I mean, he was just rifling it in there with absolutely no regard for who is around, which, again, if you're Andy Dalton at this point, what do you have to lose? You're already dead.

You might as well play that way. So, good for the Bengals. You're all right. Do you think his wife is on Zillow for Chicago right now? I hope she is. I will be very okay if he's the quarterback next year, even though now Mitchell Trapisky is playing too well. So watching that Bears game on Thursday was a tough experience for me because it was fun to see them win, but he played very well in the second half. People have been taught. People have talked themselves into quarterbacks for less than the second half of the game that Mitchell Trabisky had last week.

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And being able to use Sonos in all of these capacities is why I am a dedicated Sonos user. So go to Sonos.com to learn more and complete your holiday shopping. All right, let's get the stock down here. What the hell is happening with the Philadelphia Eagles, man? What was that game? I mean, I can understand that their offense hasn't been playing well, but just to get lit up by Ryan Fitzpatrick is so bizarre. I don't really know what to say here.

Both of us pick the Eagles to win the NFC. over the cap pointed this out in the middle of the game. They basically have the most valuable roster in football. They've tied up $222 million when measured by new money. And they can't beat the Miami Dolphins. And listen, was it a weird game? Yes. Was there a punter to kicker touchdown?

So beautiful. Punter to kicker or kicker to punter. I think it was a weird game. whatever it was, it was new. And I'd never seen anything like it. And I think I would love to find out if it. I guess I'd love to find out what that Colts play a couple of years ago was supposed to look like. Because it seems to me that Dolphins play was the perfect way to go about that sort of play.

If you're the dolphins, that's the type of stuff you should be doing right now. Because who cares? Just do that stuff all the time. It's fun as hell. Did you see the video of Christian Wilkins, the first round pick, literally laughing at the Eagles after that play? No, that's great, though. It's really good. I mean, like, like, exaggerated laughter.

Exaggerate. Like, like laughing, belly laughing. It was, it was perfect. And it kind of sums up where the Eagles are right now. So a couple of things. Number one, the Giants play the Eagles on Monday night next week. Are you excited? I am so excited.

God, what a terrible game. So Ryan Fitzpatrick is now thrown. It's from the NFL. Ryan Fitzpatrick has now thrown a touchdown against the Eagles with seven different franchises. He's the first player to ever throw a touchdown with seven different teams against one franchise. So congratulations to Ryan Fitzpatrick. That seems like just the prototypical Ryan Fitzpatrick statistic. I can't even believe that.

To play for seven teams is amazing. To throw a touchdown against another team with seven different teams is almost impossible. We've talked about the Eagles long-term outlook so often on the show over the last month. I don't really have any interest in retreading that territory. I'm sure we'll get to it later. When we spend years talking about whether or not Devante Parker is going to break out, and your secondary is so bad that you single-handedly stop years of conversation because he has broken out, that's a problem. I cannot wait for Devante Parker to be next year's deep sleeper and fantasy on whatever team he's playing,

because after this game, it's almost a guarantee. It's un- Listen, he has not been a massive bust this year. He had the game against the bills a couple weeks ago. He's super talented. He's been fine. Yeah, he's been fine. He might get 1,000 yards this season. But 159 yards, two touchdowns.

I saw this and I can't believe it. This sums up the Eagles relationship with explosive plays. Okay. Devante Parker had two receptions of over 40 yards, giving him six plays in the season. The entire Eagles roster has five such receptions combined all season. Devante Parker has more big plays than the Eagles. Something is wrong. And on that note, let's move on.

Stockdown, Carolina Panthers and the Kyle Allen experiment. We all good at this now? I think this is over. I don't even have notes on this. I just, Kyle Allen stinks. So the Kyle Allen part of it is not interesting to me. I think that was probably always in the cards just because he's a backup quarterback. And backup quarterbacks, you know, water tends to find its level.

That's how it works with backup quarterbacks. When you have to rely on them for a long time, it's probably going to end up hurting you. And Kyle Allen's probably a backup quarterback. The relevant part to me about this Panthers outcome is what it could mean for the franchise. Because you have Tepper by the team last year. The people in place, whether it's the quarterback, the head coach, and the GM are not people he picked. Could you see just a clearinghouse situation for Carolina this off season based on what is happening? happened over the last month. Would that surprise you?

Here's what we know. We know David Tepper likes analytics. We know he wants to get a little more forward thinking as far as that goes. I think, and this is just me, I have no information on this, certainly no information in the last couple of hours about what he might do. But it would seem to me, knowing what I know about David Tepper, knowing what I know about his feelings on football, that it's possible he tries to, even though he's made some hires as far as his analytics goes, maybe he makes a move in the front office and lets them decide on the coaching staff.

Sure. Maybe that's what happens. I don't know. Do you clear out a coach like Ron Rivera without thinking about it and then just, you know, start totally over? I don't know. I think that maybe Ron Rivera gets the benefit of the doubt, at least initially, and Marty Herney doesn't.

Again, this is, it is a tough, tough situation. I think that if you're going to keep anybody, would be Ron Rivera, and you give him one more year to prove himself within it with another beginning of a regime. We've seen that before. So I don't know. I mean, this was, this was weird. I also think that it's, you know, in general, listen, Cam Newton was really banged up this

year. It was a weird season. And I understand Christian McCaffrey, you know, looked historically good at points, but I think there's a real limit on how well you can play if a running back is propelling your offense. So I don't know. I think that it's. there's a lot for David Tepper to think about. I think that I would probably keep Rivera

and maybe try to get a little more numbers-focused stuff, the kind of emphasis he's put on the game since he bought the team. Maybe you make a move in the front office that way and then kind of go from there. I think that's probably right. I like Ron Rivera. I think he's a good coach,

but it's more about whether David Tepper sees this as an opportunity to start over, whether than I think Ron Rivera, then whether I think Ron Rivera's a good coach or not. So those are two different conversations. And you saw some of the plays today. I mean, Kyle Allen, Curtis Samuel had a wide open touchdown that he missed. It just feels like a new quarterback is going to matter a lot for this team. I don't know who that new quarterback is going to be.

We've seen the reports that it's most likely not going to be Cam Newton. If they think Cam Newton is healthy, I actually think it might be a good idea to keep him based on some of the other options that could be out there. But that's a conversation for a different time. I do think hitting the reset button in Carolina is a possibility that, might not have existed maybe even a month ago just because of the dynamics there with the owner. Most coaches that have done what Ron Rivera has done would deserve to keep their jobs, I think he probably does. But there's just a lot going on with the moving pieces of that franchise at this moment.

Okay, one more stock down. Nick Foles got benched today while playing the Tampa Bay Buccaneers defense. Do you know what the cost to cut Nick Foles is per over the cap? $33 million, baby. Yikes, dude. I think that they just try to give him away for whatever team is desperate enough to take him. I think you do a late round pick swap and you hope somebody takes them off your hands because then you only owe him, I think, 15 million. If you have somebody else.

Is it 15? No, excuse me. Then you'd owe him 20 million. What's my math? 19.2 million. 18.75. Sorry. It's 6.

You good, dude? What's 6.2? It's 1135 p.m. here. What's 6.25 times three? 18.75, correct? I have no, you lost me. That's what they know him, because that's his signing bonus that's left. You'd have somebody else trying to take that $15 million base.

Can you give him away for a seventh round? Is the question. Whatever the exact numbers, it's bad. It's not good. Let me translate the numbers. It's bad. Cutting him would be a disaster. Cutting him would be a disaster.

Minchu, at this point, it seems to me Minchu is legitimately better. And even if it's close, even if it's relatively close, I think that you have to go with him just because of the price difference. He's making next to nothing. I would almost guarantee that we will have a new coach in Jacksonville next year. I just think they're ready to make a change there. The question to me will be, what is the front office making this decision? Do you roll with the Coughlin-Cawswell partnership? Because I don't think it's worked.

So Coughlin, from what he's been saying, reports have basically framed it as he hasn't really committed to coming back next season. And so do they do the thing where Dave Caldwell gets bumped up again and see, oversee something, do they give him another chance? It's, I don't know. I mean, or maybe Coughlin comes back. I don't know the answer to that. All I'm saying is there's probably going to be some changes because it looks to me, you know, Ramsey gets traded. they get that nice haul. This seems like the end of the cycle for the, for the Jaguars.

And I'm not totally sure where they go next. At the end of the cycle is the right way to frame it. And I think that's why you should try or you should at least consider trying to start over in a lot of ways. It's not they probably can't get a ton of money next year. But if they cut Marcel Darius, which they're almost certainly going to, it saves them 20 million on the cap. If they can trade foals and they save 15 million there, then you consider how. how much do we really want to hit the reset button? Because if you get rid of Campbell, which he's a fantastic player, but you'd save $17 million

by doing it, then you're sitting at about $32 million, $35 million in cap space with a GM who now is two extra first round picks. So you can kind of start over there. There is a way that you can give a new guy, and got it, they cut Jake Ryan and they make $6 million. There are some cuts. So if you really want to start over, you can start. over. And I think with Jacksonville right now, that's the move. You roll with Minshu and his 400 grand base salary or whatever it is, and you try to build a team around him with the pieces

that you currently have. Losing Campbell hurts, but I do think that you have to do something drastic. Also, in Gakway is a free agent because they've decided to screw that situation up royally for the last year. I think you franchise tag him at the very least. But then, of course, then you start running out of money. Well, they've had this problem in the first. They've had this problem in the past. Yeah, they certainly have. It's what happens when you build your team through free agency. Sure is.

All right. Challenge flags. Let's hear it. So I was going to do a Phil Rivers rant and I just, I just don't want to do it. Just don't do it. It's so late. Just don't ruin my night. I don't have the energy.

I don't have the energy for it. I mean, because it takes a lot because the Chargers found a new way to lose that was unique. And I kind of wonder if that loss was so unique. in the sense that, you know, it comes down on a special team's mistake, not River's mistake. I wonder if it kind of breaks the cycle. It's like Groundhog Day where everything's going to be totally normal for Rivers going forward. Like it wasn't the same exact loss he's had a hundred times in his career. Maybe it's the start of something new. Having said that, my actual challenge flag is the entire NFC, excuse me, NFC East, which is on its way to being

one of the worst divisions in a number of years. Michael David Smith said that the 2008 NFC West is the worst division in history, a 344 winning percentage, won by the 9 and 7 Arizona Cardinals. The NFC East has the chance to break that record. Daniel Jones continues to be awful. 11 interceptions and 11 starts, 10 fumbles lost. Dave Gettelman, Pat Shermer, are now 7 and 21 in their Giants' tenure. Ben McAdoo was significantly better.

Giants and Eagles are next Monday night. And I need to read you this quote, Doug Peterson on losing to the Miami Dolphins, quote, that's a good football team. It sure is, Doug. What are we going to do? Can you tell me who had the best record in the NFL in 2008? Not the Steelers.

Not the Steelers. not the Steelers. I'm going to guess the New Orleans Saints. Steelers were 12 and 4 that year, so they were pretty good. Okay. Not the New Orleans Saints. The Saints were actually 8 and 8 that season in a stacked NFC. Stacked NFC South.

The answer is your Dallas Cowboys. No, sir. Your 13 and 3, Jeff Fisher led Tennessee Titans. Oh, that is perfect. That is perfect. Where were you in 2008? I was a junior. in college.

As was I. I had just gotten back from, I did the semester before that in London. So it was my first semester back. It's when I started working at the paper. The Wildcat Dolphins. Wildcat Dolphins. Yep. It was a fun year.

The San Diego Chargers won the AFC West that year in 8 and 8. At 8 and 8. Yeah. The Steelers were 12 and 4. That's Steelers defense was nasty. That's when the Steelers Ravens rivalry was at its peak at around 2008. It was a great year. The Dolphins went 11 and 5.

That was the huge turnaround they had with picking Jake Longfirst overall. Would they go before? I wrote 15. I wrote 5,000 words on it a couple of years ago, a couple months ago. Yeah, they won at 15 and then they went 11 and 5. That was Matt Castle year. That was Matt Castle year. Yeah.

I remember watching week one of that season in Buffalo Wild Wings in Missouri. And I remember watching the Bernard Pollard situation and just seeing the Patriots chances theoretically crumble and then never crumble, which is a good way to wrap up this podcast. I was covering the 2008 Dolphins while I was in college for the Sun Sentinel, and I don't really remember much about that team. The 07 team was so much more memorable because they were so awful. Yeah, the 08 team. I don't really remember who any of the players were. It was because Parcells, I remember who the players were, but Parcells cut all the personalities. Like, anybody who was funny or interesting, even like Jay Feely, he was like, you guys

got to go. And then he just brought in like, Oh, Pennington was the quarterback. That's right. Chad Pennington was quarterback, Ronnie Brown. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, yeah, if you holdovers from the 07 team, you're Greg Camerrios, that crew. That was year two of Ted Ginn.

I thought I was going to last forever. 790 yards led the team. All right. As always, as we said, the Patriots seemed like they were done that year, and they certainly weren't. And if the Patriots seemed like they're done now. They went 11 and 5 with Max. They certainly weren't. Yes, they did. And Randy Moss was still very good.

All right. I was going to throw a challenge flag on the past interference rules, but we ran out of time. And honestly, at this point, I also can't muster the energy. It's week 13. It's 1142 p.m. I've gained 10 pounds this week. It's time to go. I'm on the east coast. I'm an hour ahead of you. That's why I couldn't do the Phil Rivers ran. Well, welcome to my life, man. I always do this on central time. Usually do it on Pacific time. It's not very fun. Well, that's why. That's why we got, we got Daniel Jones rant. instead. That's it. It's fine with me. All right, that's all we got, guys. As always, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll be back on Thursday. This holiday season, immerse yourself in all your favorite holiday classics with a new home theater system from Sonoms.

I'm going to use Sonos this week as I decorate my Christmas tree, listen to Christmas music. There's so many different uses for it. It's just going to make the perfect gift for everyone in your life. So go to Sonos.com to learn more and complete your holiday shopping.