The Ringer NFL Show - Judging Josh Rosen, Finding the Next Alvin Kamara, and Draft Prospect Crushes | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 254)

Episode Date: April 12, 2018

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Kevin Clark link up to chat about the recent treatment of Josh Rosen (03:00), a monster contract extension for Jarvis Landry (16:00), and the problem with the search for this year's Alvin Kamara (18:30). Then Danny Kelly joins the show and the group discusses the draft prospects they're infatuated with (26:45). They wrap up with a game of "Would You Rather? Tight End Edition" (48:15). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, Robert Mays here. On today's Ringer NFL show, we are ramping up to the NFL draft with our first in a series of shows about the themes, players, and intrigue involved with this year's class. As always, we're brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where there are a ton of great shows for you. The NBA playoffs are upon us, and there is no better way to get ready for all the basketball action than with the Ringer NBA show. Justin Verrier and Bill Simmons did an emergency podcast this week to chat about all things round one with the collection of other Ringer staffers, so please go check that out. Also, go to the ringer.com to check out a ton of great written stuff from this week. There's more NBA writing on this website than one human can possibly read, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try. Kevin and I both wrote about basketball this week. He took a

plunge into the deep, dark world of the 2018 magic, and I went to Minnesota, where only amazing sporting events happen when I'm there, I guess, to write about the Timberwolves making the playoffs for the first time in 14 years. There's also plenty of work from actual basketball writers. Kevin O'Connor, Jonathan Sharks, and so many others have you covered from every angle. I'm telling you, do not miss out. And with that, let's get to the show. To the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, I guess we're basketball writers now. We're finally official Ringer staff members. It was a coincidence that we both heard about the NBA, but here we are. Yes.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the only way you actually count working for the site. So now we do, because we're NBA writers. It's good for us. It's good career. Our NFL coverage is valued, Robert. I'm not sure. That's true. I also don't think we're staffed up and up on the basketball side.

They have holes, even though there's 30 of them. I'm joking. There certainly is not. What an open. I'm just saying, I'm kidding. It's a, it sounds like a joke. This is a laugh right, Robert.

The basketball is well-staffed, and it is a point of emphasis on the website, and we got to kind of get in there this week, which was fun. I loved the game. awesome to be there. It's the third straight amazing sporting event I've seen in Minnesota. I'm glad you got some satisfaction of watching basketball, something I haven't done since 2010. Oh, I had to go to Minnesota

to get it, so let's be clear. I had to leave my home and leave where I can watch the Bulls on television to get it. So, wow. One of the things about mid-April is it's not just the start of the NBA playoff. That's exactly right.

Around here. It's the NFL draft. Yes. And it's And it's important NFL draft time because I think there's a huge difference. Because March, even two weeks ago, it starts to drag a little bit. We start talking about whether or not Josh Allen uses fabric softener or whatever. And we start to turn the corner around now and get into the important stuff, like which teams are going to move up, who's actually good. And we're starting to know things, Robert.

Yeah, I mean, the NFL No, thanks. The NFL offseason is very strange. I mean, you have the Super Bowl, and then it's mostly, you go right into the draft with the combine, but in reality, it's the, even that coaches haven't watched the players yet, and then it's free agency.

So it's kind of a weird flip-flop and switching scenario, but we're here now. I mean, there is nothing but the draft, and we're a couple weeks away. So our plan is we're going to do three podcasts between now and round one. All of them kind of taking a look at some of the individual positions, narratives, the trends, that are relevant to this year's group.

So, Kevin, we're going to start with a topic that both you and I have written about, but in very different ways, and that is Josh Rosen. Sure. Kevin, you wrote last week about how the draft process has become so elongated, so involved, and so much kind of a snake eating itself, that traits that we would consider admirable for any human being and traits that are actually helpful in the football players have now somehow become a negative thing, and nowhere is that more relevant than with how Josh Rosen has been treated the last couple of months.

So I've spoken to a lot of GMs and team executives and some scouts over the past couple of years. And they've talked a little bit about essentially what has happened in this new era of increased technology, increased information, and what teams are doing with it. Because if you're a GM right now, you can look at every snap, a player played in college. In the same time it maybe took to watch five games seven years ago. And I don't think people really realize how big of a difference that is and how much everything has changed technology-wise this decade, okay? Because it was pretty consistent as far as how long it took to watch 300 snaps for about 30 years. Okay. You literally rewind the tape in most scenarios.

What's happening is not, oh, we're looking at more prospects or, oh, we're looking at different things or, oh, we're using this technology. 90% of it is we're just overthinking the things we used to. look at. And there's a couple of things that offshoot from that. Number one is, I think, and I've talked to GMs about this all the time, you start talking your, you start exploring the negatives more than you used to. Oh, this guy's arm motion. This guy, you know, his strides aren't as good as they could be. You start overthinking the negative parts and talking yourself out of good prospects. You know, one of the things I really find fascinating, you talk to people in the Belichick tree. one of the things Bill Belichick emphasizes is

don't tell me what a guy can't do what can he do and I think as long as you exist in that area you have a much better time with draft analysis because you're just figuring out the positives and tallying those up against other positives the negatives can be used in so many varying ways that I think once you start exploring the negatives

in this new era of increased technology you can just talk yourself out of any prospect because you can watch 500. Dave Caldwell from the Jaguars is the first person who brought this up maybe four years ago. And he said, you can just watch everything and you will sit there

and you will notice, okay, this guy does this thing I don't like and you'll watch it 15 times and you say, I'm out on this prospect. And it is the number one thing you have to guard against. And draft overthink is very, very, very real in this era. And it's not just the tape part of it. it's the personality part of it.

Now what do we have with Josh Rosen? We have, he's a millennial. Jim Moore said it to Peter King last week in Monday morning quarterback. It's great column. But now we're deciding whether or not millennial is a good thing. Well, what does millennial mean?

Well, Jim Moore's definition of millennial is it's a guy who needs to be coached. It's a guy who needs to be constantly stimulated and engaged. Well, that sounds like every good quarterback in the NFL? Here's the thing. I don't necessarily agree with that. go ahead.

I think there are a lot of quarterbacks who aren't necessarily a bit like that mentally. Tell me one. Is Tom Brady built like that? Absolutely. Without a doubt. He needs to be constantly stimulated. I think he constantly stimulates himself. I don't think he gets bored.

No. You hear about the quarterback meeting rooms. One of the things Bill Belichick is great at is literal quizzing of his players. I wrote a story by this a couple years ago. You walk through the halls and he'll stop the full. and say, hey, even though you aren't on special teams, tell me about the front line of the Ravens Kick Return team. And if you don't know the answer, you're going to get,

and I look that is essentially a bullet through your brain, okay? And Belichick in the quarterback meeting room is even more legendary. He is constantly grilling Tom Brady on things. He is constantly asking Tom Brady, okay, I know we're playing the bank this week, but tell me about the Packer's secondary. I mean, that's not what I mean, though. I don't mean knowing the things you're supposed to know. I mean, does Tom Brady's mind wander?

That's my question. He asked to be called. Bill O'Brien said that when Tom Brady first became his pupil, when O'Brien was put in charge of the quarterback room, the first thing Tom Brady said was, I need to be coached every second of every day. This is a different thing. I don't think so.

It's a different thing to me. We're talking about different things. That's Tom Brady being like, I love being a football player. Let's do this. To me, what I'm talking about is, do you see a video of Josh Rosen and Aaron Rogers? Sure. So I thought that was interesting. And this is what I'm coming back to.

There's a moment where they talk about kind of just playing with the drills you're doing because they're so boring. And Roger essentially says, I've been doing this for 13 years. I have to, like, just stimulate myself. Yeah. And I think that's what I'm talking about. So I think that there are different, but I think when I, that's kind of what I'm, what I'm trying to say is, when I think about Rosen and how he talks and kind of the things he said and just the little tiny things I've gleaned from his personality, he reminds me of Aaron Rogers. Yeah, no, that's the obvious one. That's why I led with Rogers and the piece I wrote.

I think the interesting thing is I remember getting grilled on this. I mean, people really roast to me on this a couple of years ago because Mike McCarthy told me that one of the things Aaron Rogers does is he, he doesn't intentionally throw interceptions in training camp. But he does intentionally throw 50-50 balls that could easily be intercepted because he wants to see what wide receivers do with him. Sure. It's literally elaborate. That's what training camp is for guys that have been in the league for a decade. It's a laboratory to figure shit out. It got completely, you know, the sort of Twitter, the dumb Twitter.

Yeah, I've been there. Overthink complex. Oh, this guy's making excuses for Aaron Rogers practice interceptions. Well, okay, guys. Which, why do we need to make excuses for that? Why would you be motivated to do so? Because people hate Aaron Rogers and they just, and they just want to be angry about something. I don't really understand it.

But Aaron Rogers will intentionally throw 50-50 balls because, okay, you know, he hasn't seen enough of Trevor Davis, something like that. I literally think he was a rookie the year that that was two years ago that I talked about this. He hasn't seen that guy. So he doesn't know if he can trust him with a 50-50 ball in the back of the end zone. He doesn't know. It's not Jordy Nelson. He's never been there with him before. And so, yeah, you.

play within the drills because you get bored. I think that's sort of human nature. Does Tom Brady get bored within the drills? Probably not to the extent that Rogers or Rosen does, but I think maybe a little bit, sure. I just think that Tom Brady, I mean, I think that there's no real danger of that with Tom Brady because Belichick is the one who will change things around. I mean, Belichick, you know, their stories, Belichick will just wet the football sometimes because, okay, you guys haven't practiced in the rain enough. Okay, fine, everything's wet this time. And so I just think that there's the NFL is all about constant stimulation. I agree with that, but I think we're, again, we're talking about slightly different things.

I'm talking about kind of moving outside of the things they tell you to do. I mean, when those things are over, I mean, they always will be over at a certain point. When you're doing a drill that they told you to do, even in the margins of that drill, I think that there are tiny moments of just his mind will wander. That's what I think more is saying. He's concerned about other things. And I think that's just, it's a silly thing. The idea that even the quiet moments, which will always exist,

become problematic because he's not totally focused. I don't buy that at all. Because again, I think Rosen's the type of guy like Rogers, who will just fill those in a different way. Yeah. I mean, I just don't know what the real debate is about. I just think it's so bizarre. We're going to talk about quarterbacks, not on this show.

I think we both want to watch them a little bit more. We're going to dig into some comparisons later in the show about a different position and come back to it in future shows. But when I watch Rosen a couple weeks ago, when I wrote about him, kind of in the midst of this whole thing, I believe it was the day after Morris said that he would rather have Sam Darnold because it's a better culture fit. And Sam Darnold is from like San Juan Capistrano or something like that, like a beach town, you know, in Southern California, about an hour from where Josh Rosen's from, which I guess is very similar to Cleveland, whatever. This whole thing is so stupid.

But when I watched Rosen, it was just like, again, we think about overthought and kind of digging into things that may not be there just because we have the time to think about it. but he takes chances. He has weaknesses. I mean, his actual weaknesses, he does some stuff and he tries to force some throws because he's a lot of confidence with his arm in the middle of the field. But again, these are the things that should matter.

The rest of it should not. I mean, his mental makeup is clearly good enough to play in the NFL. And it's honestly better than most quarterbacks probably have when you consider how smart he is and how thoughtfully is and all that stuff. I don't understand that position how it can be a problem whatsoever. By the way, Sam Darnel could not stop turning the ball over. So can we stop acting like Sam Darnel of some elite.

I mean, obviously he's an elite prospect, but he's not this can't miss guy. I mean, he has as many flaws as anybody else at the top of the draft. I think Josh Allen still has more flaws, but that's just me personally. Oh, I mean, that's a different category. That's a guy. I mean, I don't even, is that a Ponzi scheme? What's going on with that? We'll talk about that later.

Okay. Let's move on. Coming up, we'll chat about how some teams may use this year's draft to counteract the Alvin Kamar effect. And we'll also welcome Danny Kelly to chat about some of the draft crushes that we've developed over the past couple months. But first, it's the smartest move of the week brought to you by ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.

This week, we're going to highlight something that I thought was very smart on one end and very not smart on the other end. And that was the Saints offering Cameron Meredith a contract as a restricted free agent, even though the Bears could match. And the reason I think this is the smartest move of week by the Saints is that there was an understanding and a thought that, well, the Bears will just match it. and even though they made him a free agent, a restricted free agent, and they gave him an original round tender, so the team didn't have to give up anything if they signed him. The Bears still wanted him around, so they were probably going to match it.

But you never know if you're going to have a chance at a guy unless you take a shot. And that's exactly what the Saints did. They signed him to a two-year deal worth about $10 million, and the Bears eventually balked. Why the Bears in the first place would not offer him a second round tender for a million dollars more and essentially get a free look at it? him for an entire another year while they have another, while they have a notion of cap space, I do not understand. But when you're looking for quality employees, when you're looking for people to make your business better, sometimes it's worth taking a chance when everyone around you says that it's not worth taking. And that's exactly what the Saints did. And now they have

another incredibly potent weapon on a cheap deal working with Drew Brees. I totally agree. You know, you also, when you're looking at just employee acquisition, you have to worry about inefficiencies. And I think a guy making $5 million who's a good veteran, that's a good example of an inefficiency. I think we've talked so much about those sort of mid-tier veterans, how you can get great bargains on them with a salary cap that's $173 million this year. I mean, you take flyers on that. That's how you win. That's how you become the next Eagles. You have a large collection of guys making $5 million a year who then outperform their contract. Five million dollars is not a lot in today's NFL. I like the move.

especially when Jarvis Landry is about to make $15 million. Can we talk about that? We can talk about that. Let's talk about that in a second. Okay, okay. The smartest movie of week was brought to you by ZipRecruiter. 80% of employers who post on ZipRecruiter find a quality candidate through the site in just one day. Try it free today at ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL.

That's ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. All right. 30 seconds on Jarvis Landry, go. What's happening? I don't know. What do you mean? What's happening?

$15 million for Jarvis Landry? That was on the horizon. When the Browns traded for him, I thought he was going to get a deal near the top of the market. The fact that he did, it's what I said at the beginning of free agency. I think he's going to get a monster contract. I really don't want my team to be the one that gives it to him. 15 is probably $3 or $4 million. And I thought, okay, if you had Jarvis Land.

There is no way that you said the way the Dolphins did. There's no way. What do you mean by that? He's going to play outside and he's going to run more vertical rounds. There's no possible way you can use him in the way they're used to. He will not be, what was it? He was 35th in yards and first and receptions, at least in December. Something like that.

I mean, at some point, he's just, he's a glorified running back. You know, he just gets it for, you know, 4.5 yards per catch or whatever. Obviously, you know, not that extreme. But they're going to use them differently. But here's my question. If you were the GM and he was on your roster, you would pay him what? based on the player he's been for his entire career? Yeah.

$8 million. I would go $11 or $12. I mean, we have a big salary cap now. Fine, 10. I would not have sent over 10. I would go $11 or $12. He's not my favorite. I think he's fine.

The way they use him will be intriguing to me. Because if this may say more than, more than what they think about Jarvis Landry, this may say more about what they think about Corey Coleman. if they're going to pay Jarvis Landry this and use him outside a little bit maybe with Josh Gordon used Duke Johnson in the slot

I mean how he ends up filling a role in that offense will be intriguing to me based on this price tag that's what I'll say without a doubt I would believe anything with the Browns right now yeah that's so true

with what they're building I would believe anything are they going to use this guy outside I don't know are they going to trade Duke Johnson maybe get another third round pick maybe. I wouldn't trade a third round pick for Duke Johnson from whose perspective?

The team trading for him. Oh yeah, no, I'm just I'm speaking hypothetical then. Sure. No one's actually, I mean, what? Fifth round for Duke Johnson?

Yeah, is he's in the last year his rookie deal, but that's the concern. Well, apparently that's not a concern for anybody else in the NFL because we keep trading

fifth and fourth year guys for really high draft picks. That's true. It's like half the league hasn't read the CBA. Would that surprise you? What percentage would you put on it? Half is probably high.

It's like when Congress votes in something and nobody's read the bill. Yes, it's exactly right. We're just in year six of the CBA and nobody's read the damn thing. It's just a huge stack of paper on like Tom Coughlin's desk. All they know is they can't practice anymore. Yeah, that's the only thing. No one practices. No one's read the CBA.

No one understands the salary cap except like three teams and they all make the Super Bowl every other year. All right. I want to chat about something I wrote this week and it involves Alvin Kamara. in a way. Okay. So I think every year we have conversations about who this year's version of last year's draft sleeper will be. Okay. You know, most recently we saw it happen with Dak Prescott and you remember that whole thing before last year's draft. Who's the next deck who's the next deck press got? It's like, well, the problem with that is that those guys don't come around all the time. You know, I wrote on the year 20 of looking for the new Tom Brady in the sixth round and he hasn't

come around. So I wrote about Kamara and I just punched it into pro football reference because I was curious. So, Kamara had 1,500 yards from scrimmage, 6.0 yards per carry, and 13 total touchdowns. There are three guys since the merger that have done that. Alvin Kamara, yeah, Adrian Peterson, and Barry Sanders, and both of them won the MVP the year they did. So if you're looking for that guy in the third round, you're probably looking in the wrong place. And so taking that a step further, if we kind of concede that Alvin Kamara isn't in this year's draft. And if you're looking for him,

you're wasting your time. I came away thinking that maybe the more worthwhile pursuit is looking for guys that are still undervalued a little bit and that the conventional wisdom hasn't come around on quite yet that have a chance to stop him. And the guy I kept coming back to was Dion Jones. Dion Jones was the 52nd pick in the 2016 draft. It's not like an overlooked prospect in the middle of the second round.

But you can be und drafted. And the people were very excited about him. Yes. but you can be underdrafted anywhere. Aaron Donald was the 14th pick. He was underdrafted. That's a steal at 14. Aaron Rogers was underdrafts.

Yes. So even if you're a mid-second round pick, you can still be undervalued. And I think a lot of what drove the skepticism about Dion Jones was that he wasn't very big. It's 220 pounds. He got engulfed by a bigger linebacker or bigger alignment in college. And that still happens in the league, by the way.

He's not a great run defender. He still struggles to kind of get off blocks and everything. else. But in a world where teams throw the ball so much and so many offenses are built on creating mismatches with running backs and tight ends in the passing game, why does run defense for linebackers matter as much as it used to? It shouldn't. So that leads me to guys like Rayquan Smith who just, if you think he is a top, even if he's the ninth overall prospect, it seems like that position is so marginalized that it wouldn't surprise you to see him go 16th. And then it wouldn't surprise me if a couple years from now, we said, oh, Rayquinsmith was overrated, or it was underdrafted.

Underdrafted. He should have been, he should have gone six spots higher just because we thought he was a little bit small and we weren't sure how he played against the run, but he literally just mirrors and shadows the best route running running backs in the NFL. I just think that there's a lack of the conversations we're having about positional value and about what should matter at certain spots is one step behind because I think we've realized what running backs are now. The reason Sequin Barclay is a top five pick is because he's such a good receiver, right?

The reason that Leveon Bell is worth maybe $14 million a year is because he's such a good receiver. But I don't know if we've put that much emphasis on that side of it for linebackers. I think athleticism still matters, but I don't know if kind of instinct and feel and everything else as a coverage guy matters to the degree that it should. One of the people you brought up in your column who I found interesting was Tremaine Edwins from Virginia Tech, who I think is a great prospect, as is his brother Torel, who's actually a safety. Both of them are incredible athletes. And it's interesting to me that he has a brother who's a safety. His brother's 220 pounds. And so both of those guys can really mess up the middle of the field for an offense. I think that's interesting. I think that when you look at how to play modern defense, excuse me, yeah, modern defense against a modern offense, an

ultra-modern offense, the best thing to have would be sort of a jack-of-all-trades, extremely fast, extremely athletic safety. The second best thing, and by the way, the safeties have become probably as valued as they should be because of the things that they can do. One of the sort of inefficiencies there then is a

linebacker who can cover as much ground as a safety, who can who can wreck the middle of the field for a running back passing game. You know, okay, you're playing the Rams. We got Todd Gurley, who are we going to game plan? If you don't have a safety, it's really good to have an inside lineback who can stay with Todd

freaking girly or Alvin Kamara or any of these guys, Levyon Bell. I mean, you're going to need a fast, small athletic linebacker who can stick with these guys every step of the way. I agree. And it's not even just athleticism. I think that we talk about that all the time, right? Al-Goggle Tree is somebody that people love because he's very fast. Sure.

But you need some athleticism to stay with these guys. 100%, but it's more of a bench, like a baseline. You need a baseline level of athleticism. You need to be very athletic. But I still think an ability to... to cover in space and that we've seen Smith do that. And Edmonds is good too, by the way. Don't get me wrong.

But I just feel like when people are going to draft Edmonds, they're going to talk more about his size. His kind of a sneaky boat, he's a pass rusher. That's what the things are going to say. That's what people are going to say when he goes in the top 10. And be like, oh, look at how big he is. He's 6'4, 250. And look at how he runs and he jumps.

And he can rush the pass through a little bit. And it's like, okay, cool. The thing I like the best is that he can line up on slot receivers and look totally comfortable. Yep. And that's to me, it just, it gets lost. And it's, I think that's a way you can find hidden value right now, is finding guys that when the Patriots play against you,

and they motion Rex Burk cut out into the slot, do you have a linebacker that just says, okay? And that's my concern. And I think that there are sublinebackers and smaller guys that come in, maybe in passing situations, whatever. But I think those guys should be playing all the time now just because of the way the game is played. I don't believe early down,

linebackers are a thing anymore. Teams throw the ball on first down. The smart ones do more than they run it. So that's my thing is I'm just tired of talking about how a guy can't stop the run or is just a little bit too small. I think that that's how you get a guy going 15, 20, 30 spots lower than he should. Totally great. The future of offense, and it's not going to get there yet.

And actually, the last couple, maybe the last decade, we've seen more of a trend towards sub packages. The future of the NFL is everybody on the field being able to do everything all at once. 100% flexibility. It hasn't happened yet. And the reason it hasn't happened is because the athletes haven't gotten there. The athletes are getting there. We're going to get basketball on grass,

and it's going to be much more literal than it has in the last. We've been talking about that in college football and a little bit in the NFL for the past decade. It hasn't gotten to where it's going to go. Wait till you see where it's going to go, guys, okay? But defenses are going to have to get the athletes to adjust to that. And these are the people you're talking about. Just really good guys who can, exactly what you say,

Edmonds can line up in the slot against a Rex Burkhead, Christian McCaffrey, guys like that. I mean, listen, defenses are going to have their limitations, but so are offenses. Christian McCaffrey can't really pass protect. Christian McCaffrey can't really excel between the tackles. He can do a million other things. I'm a huge Christian McCaffrey fan,

but both offenses and defenses will have their limitations, and I'm going to go ahead and take a defensive guy who can do five or six things, even if you're giving, you're going to give up a little speed or a little size in a couple of situations. I'd rather go up size.

That's what I'm saying now. I think that's what I'd rather give up. If I'm going to get, if everyone has a limitation, I want to be worse stopping the run. I just think that having a great run defense is nice. It's fun. I like watching it,

but it matters less than it probably ever has. And I think that's why guys like this, like Bonte David's a great run defender, but I think he had the same kind of knocks on him. He's a little small, whatever else. Same thing. Tubman Smith, too small.

I mean, those are the things that when I read that, if a weakness has been attributed to enough superstar players, it is no longer a weakness. Yeah. All right. We are joined now by Danny Kelly to chat about some of the prospects who have stolen our hearts over the past couple months. Danny, how you doing, buddy?

I'm doing excellent. How are you guys doing? I'm great. I'm excited to do this with you because I figured you would be very enthusiastic about the players that you love. Even though I have a bone to pick with one of them. So we're going to get to that. Yeah.

We're going to get to that. I'm excited to hear about that. I'm excited to hear you talk about Quentin Nelson. I don't mean to like that. You can't give it away. I mean, the people don't know who my first one's going to be. Who else is it going to be?

Yeah, I really can start this with anything else. I mean, we haven't, we've touched out a little bit because I wrote about him last week. And Kevin asked me about the experience of watching him, but I haven't really dug into why I like him. And the answer is he's pretty much a perfect prospect.

I mean, there's nothing I don't like about him. You know, we talked about how, he is a really good prospect in a time where there aren't many good college offensive linemen coming into league and succeeding. And one of the things he does extremely well is he just never gets beaten like twists and stunts and stuff. I mean, that one play from the Georgia game where he comes all the way across and like sees a blitzer that he has no business picking off. He does that stuff a lot. And it's just it's not necessarily to that degree and that much of a highlight real play. But it's just subtly seeing blitzers, always keeping his shoulders square to the line of scrimmage.

I mean, the guy is just unbelievable. he literally plays like people have wronged him. It's like the last act of a revenge thriller. I mean, they're like taking movies. It's unbelievable that what he tries to do to the players on the other team. I want the bears to get him solely, not solely because I think he's aesthetically a really cool player, but because I think he really is that good. I mean, the only knock to me that you could have against him is that maybe he is not

fleet of foot enough to play in a pure zone scheme because he's not that quick. but I do think he moves pretty well. And two, when he passed sets, he passed that's really close to the line of scrimmage. I didn't write this because it was more of a celebration. But you could argue that against a guy like Donald or maybe Atkins, whatever, that that would leave him susceptible to quicker guys. But maybe that's just something he tried to do in college.

And in the league, he'll kind of let guys have a little bit more ground. But it's really hard to kind of find flaws in his game. And that's why he's considered one of the top two or three players in the draft as a guard. So, I mean, he's number one on my list. I haven't liked a college player like this in a very long time. I was going to ask you, remember when Warmac was like the big thing at Guard? And he was the first like top 10 guard in forever or whatever. What was how do you, how does he compare to Warmac number one?

And why do Warmac, this is getting off the topic a little bit, but like, how does he compare to Warmac? I don't think it, Warmac's strength translated to the league. And I think that Nelson's will. One of my favorite things about him is that he is so much tangible on-feet. field strength. Like it really translates that bench number. He's so good at just using his hips and kind of sliding them and transitioning his power. And that's just something that I think Warmec always struggle with. He didn't really have the feet to kind of go with all that strength that he had. Nelson absolutely does. And he's better. I mean, Nelson's just a better prospect. And he does,

everything is so much more complete. I mean, it's, again, it's really hard to poke holes. All right. Kevin, who's your first guy? So I have a tandem of- Oh, that's cheating. Okay. It's cheating. Let me tell you something, guys. I'm looking at your selections, and they're both top 10 consensus picks. Danny's on. Speaking of cheating.

You're about to pick Quinn Nelson. You pick Quinn Nelson. He's only one of mine. Okay. All right. I have a more unheralded guy. Danny is like, what are you doing, Danny? Kevin, let me guess.

The first guy you're going to pick and the second guy you're going to pick and the third guy. are really, really crazy athletes. No, okay. So one of them is Terrell Edmonds. Okay. Let's pull up Terrell Edmonds, mock drafts.

No, no, no, no, no, no. It's all that. I did the same thing, Mays. It's all that. It's all that. It's 100% that. I don't care because it works. Oh, it's just a filled in octagon.

That's all it is. Yeah, that sounds right. Oh, wow. Good Lord, by the way. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm sorry that in the athletic competition,

I enjoy guys who are good at athleticism. Athleticism matters. Athleticism matters. You guys enjoy your Jarvis Jones. I didn't pick Jarvis Jones. Someone did. Yeah, the Steelers did.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. They got scared and never drafting athletes ever again. All right, I'm giving you the Terrell Edmonds runaway here. Let's go. Tell me why. Terrell Edmonds, first of all,

congratulations to the Edmonds family for just producing two insanely sparky kids. Yeah. I mean, good for that. I mean, it's just like, it's going to be a fun weekend for them because I don't know where this guy's projected to go. I can't believe that he's going to go higher than that. John Schneider did not kidnap these kids when they were 12 years old. Just take the two athletic kids.

Okay. Well, you know Pete Carroll was like part of the whole spark thing. I'm aware. Pete Carroll is going to love these guys. Pete Carroll is going to draft both of them. Guess what, Danny? Your team's going to need a safety after they trade Earl Thomas. Let's not talk about that.

So Terrell Edmonds. He is a smaller version of his brother. He's a former cornerback, incredibly. Yeah. Anything about that information, Bobby Mays. I like it. I like it. I'm getting very excited.

Yeah. Okay. And so, I mean, he's just a great athlete back there. He can do all the things that we were talking about earlier. And, I mean, I just, my favorite part of the Lance Sierra Leyen scouting report is athletic bloodlines. Yeah, you think? His brother is going to be like a top 10 pick. He's going to be a second round pick. The other guy for me, and this is more of a sleeper, because I thought we were doing sleepers and not consensus top 10 picks. We were just going to read off a list. The guys you like

to watch, that was the criteria. I'm sorry for not making it more clear. Yeah, Kevin. No, I'm just telling you who's going to be a good NFL prospect. Sounds good. That's just, that's just what I'm going to tell you. I mean, I cannot wait to watch the draft with Kevin, because I'm going to be in Los Angeles. And for every single pick that's not relevant. or Josh Kalu saying, that's a garbage pick. That's what's going to happen. The vast majority of picks are bad picks. That's how the draft works.

I've watched the draft with you before. No, but I'm just saying history shows us that like 85% of draft picks are just complete waste of time. 85 seems high, but sure. All right, who's your other guy? They're just complete waste of time. The only draft picks that matter are going to be better than the average NFL player that you can get off the street.

What percentage of draft picks are better than the average player? I would say it's pretty well Yeah That's why every pick is a garbage pick Except like eight of them So right Mike just sicky All right Josh Kalu from Nebraska I talked about him around combine time

He's projected to be a sixth round pick 41 inch vertical 134 broad jump I just think he's I've watched a little bit of his tape I'm into it You know I think there's probably I think some instinctual things

He needs to work out with Sure I think that he's got the athleticism In the right system He can work out That's just a sleeper I wanted to throw in in the athletic defensive backs genre. He switched from corner to safety too. Yeah.

He's going to switch back in the NFL all the time because that's what flexible athletes do. Speaking of that, Danny, let's get to your first guy. I mean, we're talking about flexible defensive backs. Yeah, mine's Darwin James. I dug deep on this guys. I think he's probably going to... James is my favorite player in the draft.

I just want to be clear about that. This is about enthusiasm. That's all this is. It's literally a crush. It doesn't have... Did you, is like, was your high school crush like the girl that was like way down the draft board? I don't like, I don't understand this. Like, it's the person you have a crush on.

You doesn't, outside of that, it doesn't matter. I'm trying to pull some things, some names out that aren't talked about an NFL network at a time. That's totally fine. Yeah. Danny, what do you like about Darwin, James? Back to James. I just like, I think he's, well, number one, a lot of the time when you watch safeties or defensive backs, a lot of time is kind of boring.

tape honestly when the ball's not thrown to him or whatever but he's just all over the field and I think that was like the first thing I noticed when I was watching him was like he just shows up so often on so many different plays and I think he's one of those guys that can play multiple positions he can do the you can play like a nickel linebacker role he can play the safety he can play deep he can play over the slide he's got and he's and he's good at blitzing he can even like rush the pastor there's a you know a Twitter gif going around where he just throws this right tackle down, like rushing off the edge. And so I think his upside is just through the roof.

He's another really, really good athlete. Kevin, you'll like him. Oh, yeah. I do. He's also Maui Rubin's favorite prospect from the draft. Oh, I know. I asked her about James the other day, and she was just like ecstatic. But yeah, man, he's just fun to watch.

The guy that I haven't really even listened to, I heard people to compare him to necessarily, just because they're not built even close to the same. But I feel like they could be similar in terms of their impact is like peak Tyron Matthew. I like that. Everyone's making the Jalen Ramsey comparison. Well, because it's easy, right? And it's Florida State. It's athletic safety.

To me, it's just about positional flexibility. And I mean, he's obviously very big. But I think with a lot, it's like what we talked about earlier, Kevin. Think about how many tight ends are getting moved to play this slot, right? When you're a big slot receiver, he's the perfect guy to kind of play against those guys. And if you're using three safeties now, which a lot of teams are, a lot of teams are using one of those guys in the slot, effectively making him your slot cornerback.

It just seems like he could do all those things. The teams could use him as a blitzer. And that's kind of how Matthew was. Obviously, Matthew's much smaller, everything else. But it just seems like their impact on the game could be very similar in terms of just position, group flexibility and where they are on the field. Matthew, when he's at his best, he's obviously covers the slot really well. But he also plays that robber role really well,

where he's just kind of jumping routes and kind of using his instincts to survey the field and watch for crossing routes and all that. And I think I see the exact same thing in James. Like he has a good awareness of routes developing in front of them and just kind of knowing where to be. And I think that Matthew comp is actually really good.

I mean, obviously I went to Camp Chancellor just because I love watching Chancellor, but they are a little bit different as prospects. So yeah, I think, I mean, James is kind of, he's just fun to watch, man. So that was the first guy I thought of. my second guy is a little bit further down Kevin so this is for you I this it really is just kind of one of the archetypes of player I really enjoy and it's become very clear over however long I've covered the league that I just love guys like this I really like dante pettis from Washington yeah because he just has such a feel and you know my love for keen and Allen and players like him has been well documented and I just think that again receivers who have a little bit of limited athleticism but have such a good understanding of spacing and everything else and how to set up their routes, how to maintain the

same speed throughout. You just see that all the time with Pettus. And it allows him to affect the game in areas of the field where you wouldn't necessarily think he could. You know, so he can play in the slot, and I believe it will do that a lot in college or in the NFL. He'll be kind of a complimentary piece to a team with some vertical threats because he's not that athletic. But he can still affect the game on the outside in weird areas. He had a catch against Oregon where he set a guy up inside and then went slant fade and just ate him up and then caught the ball with one hand in the back corner of the end zone on a little fade route it's just he just knows how to play the position and i think that that's such a rarity with guys coming out of college right now i mean i remember talking

to tom to lesko about keen and allen he just said that he just knew how to play i mean he just knew how to run routes and you just don't see that very often with guys that are 20 and 21 and you know ted win who the red spot the raiders for the athletic did a cool thing with pedis where they were just kind of breaking down his thought process in certain routes. And he's such just a smart player. Everything has a purpose. Everything is being done with an end game in mind. And I love him.

I mean, I just think that he's a perfect guy for a team with some vertical pieces. And those guys are often overlooked more than they should be. He's a really good punt returner, too. Yes. I didn't even mention that. The guy returned like nine puns for touchdowns. And honestly, this is going to be, trust me,

I'm not trying to make this comparison. I'm just saying, Here we go. Let's go. I'm just saying that I think Punt Returnability is not a terrible indication of whether or not guys can see and set up themselves in the open field.

Give me the name, Mays. Antonio Brown. Oh! Antonio Brown is smaller, quicker. I mean, it's not, I'm not saying they're the same player. I'm just saying Antonio Brown is a good, is a good example of a guy who's an excellent punt returner. I'm going to tweet about this.

I'm not saying, Tonsie, but I want to see the Roto World headline. Maze. Tennis is Antonio Brown. Antonio Brown. I really liked Antio, but he's a guy that in the right spot I would be excited about. I just think that he could be a nice compliment

to a team with some explosive down the field wide receivers. All right. Kevin, who's your second guy? Yeah, so I have a guy, apparently. I mean,

I'm just going to keep telling you. You know, it was interesting. Pro football focused. It's a great podcast with Sam Monson, Steve Falazzo, and a couple other guys. And it's really interesting to me.

They did a breakdown in the wide receivers a couple weeks ago and Palazzoa, and he wrote this as well, his point is that there's just a lot of number twos sure in the draft. There's no six foot four lightning fast, you know, catches everything thrown his way guy who's going to be picked in the top 10. That's just not going to happen this year. A lot of number twos, a lot of athletic guys. A lot of number twos of different archetypes as well, 100%, which is so interesting. I always love that. 100%. And so for me, the guy who sticks out right away is DJ Moore from Maryland. He's six foot,

210, obviously 40 vertical jump, 132 broad jump, 3 cone 6.9. He, like you talked about with Pettus there, extremely versatile. He also returned punts. He wasn't returning

nine puns, as you say, Pettus did for touchdowns, but he can sort of do it all. And I kind of like him. I also like Corwin Sutton from SM. you who's all again very different player right yeah yeah body three and that's why it's fun three inches taller than dj more uh 218 not as good of an athlete as dj more but i still you know the three cone was really impressive to me i think that there's probably some value there if both those guys

are there in the late second more is amazing after the catch yeah he's like an amazing open field runner and i just i just think i think there are going to be creative teams that really It's like the eye and beholder, I think, with some of these guys. Because, again, it's not such a clear cut. Oh, this is what he can be in the league. He's going to be a flat-out superstar. And I think it's going to take the right teams for these guys to fall with. It's like the opposite of what happened when John Ross last year.

I think that some of these guys could kind of come and go if they fall into the wrong situation. But I think in the right situation, there are a ton of useful receivers. Yeah, more out of 1,000 yards at Maryland last year. And I just, I really, really like more. I think that it gets a little murky. I think he's getting hyped up a lot now. Sure. He's probably getting on.

I think, yeah, no, no, he's, I literally saw a story this morning that people think he's going to sneak into the late first. It's what scarcity, right? I mean, if there isn't anybody else and you didn't hit on the guys you wanted to in free agency, that's how guys get over that. So I think that there's a possibility he goes in the first round. I don't know if I take him in the first round, but I would definitely take him if he's there in the second. I think he said at the combine that he got told to go back to school. You know how like the draft advisory board, he got to go back to school grade. it would be crazy if he won in the first round

I mean I think it's definitely possible but Who's on the draft advisory board is Current GMs I think it's like a mix of different guys You know Like current and former GMs and coaches I don't actually know for sure I remember reading it a long time ago

But I can't remember Scouting experts according to Wikipedia It's people that have been in the league And like talk to people in the league I know the general gist of it I just want to tell everybody that the NFL is so bad drafting that they telling the prospect what to do is rich yeah yeah 100% agree all right

Danny who's your second guy all right so V to via um I'm I'm interested to see what you got with the you know the gripe you got to pick with him because I just watch him he is incredibly powerful he's you know six foot four six with five 350 pounds almost he's got light feet he's got a really really strong like club move and to me I think he's still got a lot of room to get better. And I think, you know, the knock on him is that he does disappear at times. And I think that's definitely true. Like, there are plays where he just kind of plays paddy cake with an offensive alignment.

And you don't want to see that. But at the same time, man, he can just power through like double teams. He's really good anchor. Man, he's just fun to watch. Like, the way he moves, I think is what really just jumps off the tape to me. And I heard, I don't remember when it was a couple weeks ago, that he models his game after Justin Smith. and I just keep thinking about that.

Obviously, Justin Smith is like Future Hall of Fame or one of the best ever. So that's a huge, you know, thing to, that's a huge ceiling to reach. But I do think he has kind of like a similar style. And Washington used him in a similar way as to like what the 49ers were doing with him in terms of a lot of stunts, a lot of moving him around the line. You know, he's eating up blocks and allowing the guys around him to get to the quarterback. So anyways, I just really like watching his tape. It was one of those things where he's got some holes, I guess.

but the way he moves is just like the planet theory thing. There just aren't that many guys that move at that size. I would 100% agree with everything you said with one minor grip. Yeah. I think he, I love some of this stuff he does. His club is the way he uses his hands and just the momentum he can create is unbelievable. The Justin Smith thing, here's why it's problematic to me.

Justin Smith weighed a 285 pounds. That's true. That dude weighs 345. He does not have the quick twitch that Justin Smith doesn't. And that is my gripe with him. I just think that if you're going to take a guy in the top 15, which is where he's being projected, he needs a certain level of pass rush value that VA does not give you. And think about what just happened with Danny Shelton.

And I'm not just making this comparison because they both went to Washington. They're both big dudes. I'm making this comparison because they both weigh in that 340 pound range. And Danny Shelton's an excellent run stuffer. And I think a pretty good player. But if you don't have a level of pass rush ability to affect the game on that, that end. You cannot rationalize paying guy that much money.

So as Danny Shelton was about to get to his fifth year option, the Patriots were like, excuse me, the Browns were like, no, thank you. We can't do this. We cannot pay him this amount of money. And I just feel like we might get to that same place with VIA. Yeah, to me, that's a really interesting discussion. I actually was talking about this on the radio the other day. It's like, of all the guys that are top 10, quote, top 10 guys that could fall, I think

VIA is one of them. I totally agree. Look at what happened with the defensive tackle market in the free agency, too. It's like... And look at the guys that he is the heavy. If you look at mock draftable, all of his guys that he's the same as are those guys. It's literally Dantari Poe is number one. It's like guys getting one-year deals.

I mean, obviously, low to lately got a big deal, but, you know, Sue had to settle for a one-year deal. And it's just, I don't know, it's... We'll see what happens with the interior big defensive tackle type. like market or whatever going forward. But I do agree that like right now, he's kind of a guy that could drop a little bit as a surprise. And so maybe he's there in the teens, potentially even the 20s.

I don't know if that's going to happen. But yeah. I understand why you like him. That's just my only concern. And it's more about draft position than it is the player. Absolutely. You know what I'm saying? I just think that, again,

all these guys have merits. It's more about is it works the number next to them. And that's something you have to take into consideration. And with him, There are just concerns that I have. I think as a pass rusher, he can get going. When he builds momentum, he can really get going and push the pocket. I just think it takes him too long to get going.

When you consider how quickly the ball gets out these days, if you're not instantly a penetrator, I just think your pass rush value starts to wane. I just think, I mean, if you look at him, he's not built like a fat guy. Like, he just looks, he just looks thing. I trust me, I would 100% agree with you. He's not a fat guy, but he's not a fat guy. does weigh 345 pounds.

If that makes sense, right? No, I get it. He somehow fits in that middle ground. Yeah, no, I hear you. I think that's all valid. And the value thing is a, it's a really interesting discussion going forward. It'll be something I'll be watching.

All right, buddy. So come up with two crushes that are in top 10 picks and we'll talk about them next week. Does that work for you? Thank you. Sounds good. Thank you. Thanks, buddy.

I see you guys. All, Kevin, before we get out of here, we want to do a quick segment that we'll be bringing back during our draft shows called Would You Rout? rather. And each show, we're going to chat about a couple guys at each position in this class and discuss who we'd rather have. It's pretty simple. And we're going to start with tight ends, which is this, I'm writing about it next week. It's a spot that I think is kind of interesting in the league more than anything else. And this crew, again, no surefire top 15 picks. There's no

O.J. Howard in this group. But I still think there are players that could be useful in the right scenario. So we're going to throw out three guys here. Yeah. We're going to do Mike Josicki from Penn State, Dallas Goddard from South Dakota State and Haydnhurst from South Carolina. So of those three, who would you rather have? Okay, so you have Mike Gisicki who I think that the numbers,

yeah, the last number from the combine, probably snuck him into late first round contention. I think he was probably considered a second or third round pick before he arrived in Indianapolis, but when you run a 4-5, 41 vertical jump, 129 broad, 6.7, 3 cone, yeah, you're going to

get on a lot of draft boards. So I think this is a value thing from me. How high does Gisiki rise? Does the team talk, talk themselves into him in the 20s? I don't think so, but maybe if he's there in the second round, I would take him without even a thought. I think that this is just, you know, personal preference. Obviously, Gisiki and Hearst will have gone against much better competition than Gowder from South Dakota State. Also, Goetert didn't even do much of the combine, didn't do anything except the bench press, I believe. And so there's a lot more information on the two big six prospects. So if I were to guess, I would go with Kisiki, depending on where you can get him in the draft.

It's really tough for me. I like them both a lot. And with Kisiki, when you watch him play, the explosion numbers don't surprise me. No. Because he's a jump ball guy. At least that's what he was in college. They used him a lot as a vertical receiver. I'm actually, I talked to him a couple weeks ago, and I'll be writing about it next week.

but they used him a lot in the slot and they would run like switch verticals with him. So they'd use him there and then make him the outside receiver going vertical by the end of the play in order to play with his own coverage. And he was so comfortable doing that. They would just throw a jump balls up to him and he would come down with them. And the guy's an unbelievable leaper, really good hands. He'll take the ball away from people. I also think that one of the reasons I like Goddard a tiny bit better is because I've seen him do more of the things that I like. Yeah.

I believe Lance Zerlind's comparison for him in his profile was Zach Ertz. and those are the types of tight ends that I'm finding myself more intrigued with now in this era of really smart teams using multiple tight end sets and making, like we talked about, their tight ends are wide receivers. And not in the Jimmy Graham way, but in the, we're going to put two tight ends on the field. You know, it's not like this thing where we're playing an 11 and 10 personnel, one of them just happens to be a big dude. It's this idea that they were playing with the matchups and everything else and kind of using them in space

and not just as vertical guys. And that's what I like about Goddard is they used him in just ways to kind of exploit guys in man-man coverage on in-breaking routes. Just think he can do that. He ran a little angle route against Michigan State that was just gorgeous out of the backfield. And he ran a little whip route against Michigan State where he kind of roasted a linebacker on what looked like a West Welker route. And I just want to see him do more of that stuff. I believe he can. I just feel like Goddard is so smooth.

And that's the thing I like about him. I think Kisiki is very explosive and very twitchy. I just don't know how smooth he is in and out of those sorts of rounds. I've only seen him do it a couple times. I think with some extrapolation, he could be very good at it. I've just seen him go to or Goddard do it a little bit more. Honestly, it's a coinful for me. It's about preference.

The other thing I like about Goddard is he's so good at getting his hand on balls and corralling them. Like, because he'll go up and get the jump balls. But Goddard is so good at when he's off balance. So like tip a ball to himself, which is just so impressive and just kind of, of maintaining that concentration, but I don't think I've ever seen Justici drop a pass. So it's, again, it's a coin flip for me. I like both of them.

I also think that they're both deserving of at the end of the first round to like you deserve a look there. I think each one of these guys in the right offense can make an impact worth that sort of pick. So I'm going to take Goddard just because I've seen him do more of the stuff I like more often, but I think that justiki absolutely could do them if put in the right spot. Yeah. And they both have similar both Hearst and, um,

And Gassiki have similar levels of production around 600 yards, something like that. Which, by the way, was similar to Gruncowski's numbers at Arizona. For some reason, it's just really hard for a tight end to completely ham. And the other thing about Gisiki... I totally agree that you rarely see it. The other thing about Gisiki, I know we've talked about all receiving here, and that's kind of a concern. He's very skinny.

He's just not built like a typical tight end. And again, I think that should not be a huge deal. but if you're going to use a guy in more traditional formations, maybe that's a tiebreaker. We're God, it's a little bit of a bigger guy, and you can feel better about his ability as an in-line blocker. If we're having the coin flip,

maybe that's the one that puts it in his favor. But it's really hard to argue with what Gisiki is athletically and just with the stuff you've seen from him as a receiver down the field. It's a fairly good crop, in my opinion. Yeah, again, not super good at the top. There's no top 15 picks here. There's no top 15 pick, I think there are guys that can absolutely help you.

All right, buddy. That's all we got for today. As always, thank you for joining us. We will be back next week to chat more draft stuff. And until then, thank you for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks, guys.