The Ringer NFL Show - Lamar Jackson and the Ravens Run Wild Against the Patriots, and More Week 9 Reactions | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: November 4, 2019

The Baltimore Ravens are playing the most interesting football in the NFL, but is their success sustainable? (0:25) Then, Stock Up on Andy Reid’s Patrick Mahomes–less success, Deshaun Watson’s weekly heroics, and Russell Wilson thrusting the Seahawks into contention (17:00), and Stock Down on the catastrophic Bears and the Packers, before throwing a challenge flag on the Jets foiling the Dolphins’ tank (41:45). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the NFL show is brought to you by State Farm. When you need a game plan for protection, state farm agents are here to help. With personalized service, agents are available to talk in person over text or through the State Farm app. So go with the one with coverage and agents you can count on. Find an agent in your neighborhood today. State Farm. Talk to an agent today. To the ringer NFL show, I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy?

I'm pretty excited if that's Sunday night game, to be honest with you. I can't blame you. It was the, we had to pay a heavy tax with some awful games for seven hours, and then we were rewarded with some magnificent football for hours. So we talked about it on the Thursday show in the sense that it was a potential football nerd dream. Yep. What that game would look like, and it lived up to those expectations in every way possible. Yep.

I mean, it was, we knew what this game looked like. The Ravens were the only team in the NFL. scoring a point on over 50% of their drives. The Patriots were allowing a point on, I think, 7.7% of drives, something like that. So this was, look, the Patriots did not play a team like the Ravens. And that can mean a lot of things. Number one, they haven't played a team as good as the Ravens. But beyond that, they just hadn't played quarterback like Lamar Jackson.

There are no quarterbacks like Lamar Jackson. I mean, this was, this is the type of team you wanted to see Belichick game plan for. And look, I think that the most important thing is what happens in January when these two teams play, and I have a feeling they will. But right now, Lamar Jackson looks like an MTP candidate. So does tonight, like, change your opinion of the Ravens ceiling? What does this game, if it does it all, how does it influence the way that you think about Baltimore and what they can possibly do? It's a great question. So I don't have a ready-made answer because I know this is- I don't either.

This is such a hacky thing to say, but we have an entire half of the season. I feel this way also about the Lamar Jackson MVP race. If the MVP race ended right now, Lamar Jackson might be the MVP. But like, what is the use of that, right? There's a couple amazing things Lamar Jackson did tonight. One of these, first fall, the Ravens put up 37 points in the Patriots. That's the most allowed by the Patriots in a road game since the infamous Kansas City game that led to we're on to Cincinnati.

That's where we're at. There will not be a similar level of panic because, first of all, we've just seen this movie far too many times. But I just thought that was... Let's take like a step back and think about that for a second. Sure. Like that moment was the culmination of a rough month for New England, right? Like that team was really.

This was... Well, and also they hadn't won a Super Bowl in a while. Sure. But like even beyond that, that team was in trouble. This team so far this year had been the best statistical defense we've seen ever. Right. To put up 37 on this team, it's an entirely different situation.

I just want to like throw out the context before you move on. No, no, no, no one's saying there's time to panic here. I still think the Patriots are going to win the Super Bowl. I just think that's why it's so impressive what they just did. Because it's, it's not as if there's this, it's the fourth game in a month where we have a Patriots team that's been struggling. It's been a Patriots team that's been dominant. it. And for them to do this to that team, I think that is a huge part of whatever the dialogue about

this game is. Here's the other part that I found fascinating. So this is from the NFL. Lamar Jackson's a second player in history with the passing touchdown and multiple rushing touchdowns in the game against Patriots and Bill Belichick's coaching tenure. Okay. The only other player who did it was Ronnie Brown. And what's important, what's important about that is that. I can't wait to hear you do this. I'm ready. What's important about that is that Ronnie Brown, the Wildcat came out of nowhere for that game, right? That was, talked to Rodney Harris about that game. He said it was the only time that Bill Belichick was not prepared for something. In fact, it was the only time he wasn't over-prepared for something. Like this was the, that was really, I believe Rodney Harrison said that was the only time

he saw Bill Belichick get flat out-coached because he just wasn't prepared for that particular thing. This wasn't that. I mean, we knew who Lamar Jackson was. This wasn't. This is not a gimmick offense. This isn't anything. This is just Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore Ravens have built an amazing offense. It has nothing to do with gimmicks or Belichick being unprepared for something. This was just flat out awesome football. This is an offensive line that is just phenomenal and built for this.

Orlando Brown dragged Lamar Jackson to the end zone at one point. I mean, the reverse Bush push. That was awesome. And then they just have speed outside of that offensive line. I mean, this team is built for what we saw on Sunday. This was not a gimmick. This is not a one-time thing. I'm not saying they're going to win the Super Bowl,

or I'm not saying that, you know, I don't know how many times, if the Patriots and the Ravens play on a neutral field, I don't know how many times the Ravens win. But tonight, we saw what this team is capable of. So, yes, you have to recalibrate your expectations of the Ravens. They can win the NFC because we saw what they could do tonight. So I think a lot of the things you said are right.

I don't think it's a gimmick offense, but I do think it's hard to play against in the same way the wildcat would have been. I'm not trying to say that this is a trick or that the Ravens are getting by on deception solely. But I do think that it's entirely different than any other offense you're going to play against. and I think that maybe for a season that can win you a Super Bowl. Gimic is the wrong word because the connotation of that is negative. And I wouldn't call it a gimmick offense. But it is so different that I do feel like it prevents a team from being able to do what they want to do defensively.

If that makes sense. That's the point. Yes. I think that's the point. And that's what John Harbaugh was trying to build. Yes. So I think that if they can continue to evolve this and change this, I mean,

I don't think that they're just going to have this set of ideas and then they're just never going to do anything else with Lamar Jackson. I think that being unique in building something around Lamar Jackson, that's a movable feast. That can change from week to week year to year, decade to decade. I mean, this is, this is what Lamar Jackson was drafted for, is you draft him and then you figure out what to do next with the creative offense. And so I think that the fact that he's so hard to prepare for will always be true as long as he has this level of talent.

I 100% agree with you. And you can hear my hesitation as I talk about it because I don't want to seem like I'm, like, judging it or thinking about it in a negative way. Ravens fan Malay Rubin is already on her way to Chicago right now to beat you up. It's just so different than everything we see from an NFL offense. and I mean, you can go look at my Twitter. I mean, for God's sakes, good. Have you seen NFL offense's last 40 years? I mean, Joe Flacco won a Super Bowl with the Ravens, like in this decade.

You keep jumping at me here. And I'm like, I'm trying to be like. All right. I will not interrupt for the rest of your point. I'm trying to. I understand why it seems like I'm talking about it with, with, in a negative way or like a skeptical way. But I'm not. it's cool.

It's, does it look like a high school offense in a lot of ways? Yes. And that's awesome to me. It's just something we've never, we have not seen in the NFL in the last. I'm trying to put a time frame on it. When do you think is the last time we saw this level of option football?

Probably 2013. And I still don't think it was like this. I don't think it was this pronounced. To be honest with you, when I was watching this game today, tonight, and Lamar Jackson was doing things that just looked like you shouldn't be able to do the motor football field with his talent, I was thinking a little bit about how I think we've forgotten how good some of those quarterbacks were in 2012 and 2013. Like Robert Griffin the third for that season before his knee blew out was as electrifying players as there was this decade. His highs were as high as almost anybody this day. decade. And I would put Colin Kaepernick, playoff game against Green Bay. I would put them, both those guys as far as just, I mean, absolute studs who were doing things that we didn't think were possible in the football field. And I would put, you know, I think there's five,

six, seven guys who this decade just changed our view of what's possible in football field. And I think Lamar Jackson is, is one of these guys. And so, yeah, I agree with you. This is not something we see all the time, but that's a good thing in the NFL. I 100. Yes. It's definitely a good thing. Like it is a, objectively, it is a good thing. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around it because it's so different. It's hard to kind of process what it looks like and say like, all right, can this be sustainable, all of this stuff? In terms of like how we think about football and how we just evaluate the NFL, it's a challenge in the same way that preparing for it is a challenge. I guess that's what I'm saying. And I think. think that the RG3 thing is probably the best example I can think of because like tonight, they're running full house backfields. It was a pistol based offensive approach. And that's a lot of what the Redskins did in 2012 because they were doing a lot of pistol stuff that led into play action passes.

So that's probably the comparison that I would make. But even that is not a one to one thing because. they're doing like mid zone. They're reading defensive tackles and using that to flip the math. It's just, it's such a cool thing. And I don't know if it can last the rest of the season. I don't know if it can last like beyond this.

But right now, I think it's the most interesting thing an NFL team is doing. That's what I will say. Okay. So I'm a little more optimistic about the longevity of it. What I'll say is that with, with this development of this offense, this is not out of nowhere. This is the continuation of a decade of progress.

It's a well thought out plan. I don't think the read option ever died. I don't think that, you know, the spread offense will ever die. I don't think any of these things that we've talked about ever go out of style. They just evolve and they collide with other schemes than become different, right? You know, Chris Alt, who was the master of the pistol at Nevada, was, essentially on Andy Reid's staff as a consultant for three seasons. And I think that his one rule was he wouldn't game plan against Colin Kaepernick

because Kaepernick obviously was his quarterback in Nevada. But I think that this is not, John Harbaugh did not bring the pistol or anything to football. He just took the pistol and made it cooler. And I think the professional level, taking those sort of ideas we've seen and making them 10%, 15% better with all the schemes we've now have in the history and so much tape on it from the time

that Pistol became in vogue in the NFL in 2011 until now. You can take these things and involve them. I think that's what's really cool about this. I saw an incredible stat. I think it was Zach Cox tweeted this out about the Ravens had back-to-back drives of eight minutes and nine minutes. That's not supposed to happen in this league.

And if you can control the ball like that, Listen, time possession, way overrated. But if you can just score and never give the opposing offense of the ball back, I mean, that's how you beat Patrick Mahomes. That's how you bet. That is an amazing feat that I think is just kind of neat to see in 2019. Yeah, I don't think it's about time of possession. I think it's about being able to own the game. Time of possession is overrated things in football.

Yeah. I mean, it's more about being able to play the game you want to play. And I think that's the most interesting, impressive, enviable thing about what the Ravens in 2019 are, is that they've been able to dictate the game. And they've done it by just having a complete understanding of who they want to be. That's it. I think it's as simple as that. I will say this, week 10 last year, which we're entering into next week,

the New England Patriots lost by 24 to the Tennessee Titans. They're in a much better place than they were this time last. year. And I don't know if you remember this, but they won the Super Bowl last year. This has nothing to do with the Patriots to me. No, I agree. Well, I mean, it's a little bit to do with Patriots. They give up 37 points. Sure. But like, it's, as we're having this discussion, this is not about results to me. This is about process. This is about an NFL team looking at what they have, looking at the players they have, the overall just kind of ability, like it, just the outcomes that are possible for them

and having an incredible grasp of them. That's it. Do I think the Ravens are the best team in the NFL? Do I think they'll beat the Patriots the next time they play them? I have no idea. But I'm just so impressed with a team that understands the right way to go about their process because there are so many NFL teams that don't. That's it.

Here's what I learned about the Ravens. I agree with you. I didn't learn a ton about the Patriots on Sunday. I still think of the best team in the NFL. Here's what I learned about the Ravens on Sunday night. They can be the best team of the NFL. Yeah. And it just, I tweeted about this.

And I had this thought of a lot while I was watching this game. It's just so fun to watch a franchise that is open-minded. And like, we've always thought that about the Patriots, right? Like, the Patriots are so humble in their understanding of how to build a team. Every year is different. bit of information is different. Every way you can do it is on the table for them. And that's how I feel about Baltimore this year.

They've just, they've never, they haven't rejected anything out of hand, whether it's the way they built their offense, how often you should go for it on fourth down, all of this stuff. And it's just the way, I think you and I, our value systems about what we like about football, Baltimore aligns with it in pretty much every single way. You can tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that's true. Yeah, I mean, they took a quarterback and instead of complaining about what he can't do, which dozens of head coaches have done with college quarterbacks over this decade,

they celebrated him and they went all in with him and they built a team where they can be one of the best teams in football with them. I mean, like, that is the lesson of this decade is when there's a special player, you take him and figure everything else out later. They figured everything else out later. Congratulations to the Ravens for doing this. Seriously. I mean, it's a football feat. And they took a chance on, you know, listen, there were a lot of skeptics out there because the NFL is full of dumb skeptics.

That's sort of what the NFL does. It's full of close-minded skeptics. That's the thing. It's full of unimaginate people. The default operating procedure for everybody who's good in college is the NFL minds assume they're not going to work in the pro. unless they're exactly like someone who previously succeeded in the pros. And so I just...

Unimagin it. That's what... Yeah. I think that's it. And so, in order... When I say it's a football feat, I don't mean making Lamar Jackson good because Lamar Jackson did that. When I say, when I say football feat, I mean going in and making them as going all in as quickly as possible and making this roster as competitive as possible when he hasn't even started a full season in football.

I mean, that is to know what Lamar Jackson needed exactly and build this roster this quickly and already had that, you know, a pretty good defense. That is the feat. Eric Tecosta, Asi Newsom, John Harbaugh, Greg Roman, good job by you. All right. So let's stay kind of on that line of thinking. And let's get to stock up. And let's talk about the fact that Andy Reid has been absolutely ridiculous over the last two weeks. We talked about a little bit last week when we were discussing how he built an office.

for Matt Moore. It's not dissimilar to essentially the conversation we're just having about Baltimore. What Andy Reid has been able to do with not Patrick Mahomes is a reminder of how much better he is than pretty much every single other offensive coach in the NFL. Matt Moore was a scout eight months ago. He was at pro days. There is, there are pictures. Play action has been.

Matt Moore's friend. It's been Andy Reid's friend. It should be every coach's friend. That's how he got that 40-yard bomb to Tyree Kill. This is kind of the distant cousin of the Colts thing, right? Where if you're a coach who just makes excuses and says, oh, we had this injury, we had that injury, Andy Reid's went with Matt Moore. And it's not like he's going to win with defense because we saw all the defense like when Patrick Mahomes was in.

Okay. Andy Reed is winning because he has Andy Reid. right now. When Patrick Mahomes gets back, they'll go back to being one of the best teams the NFL, et cetera. But I mean, look, they were five and three coming into this game. There was no guarantee that they were going to have some great record when Patrick Mahomes got back. Their ability to now have a little bit of cushion, Patrick Mahomes was, you know, Jay Glazer had that report that he had, you know, a not insignificant chance of re-injuring his knee if he came back this week, but it goes way down next week.

if I would if I was the gym of the chiefs give him another week after this week. But that's neither here nor there. But what I'm saying is that Matt Moore, the ability to win with Matt Moore is why Andy Reid is Andy Reid full stop. Yeah, I think that's 100% true. And I'll be curious to see what they end up doing because so they have two more games and then they have a buy. We've talked about this before. I think that you were, you've been on this train for a while. Well, I said it before he was injured.

But yes. I said it before the kneecap injury. I said we should go full load management with Patrick Mahomes. But so, okay, so let's kind of reevaluate it now. It seems like not only is the AFC West probably locked up. Like, I mean, they're going to win that division. It seems like the number two seed is probably theirs. Why would you bring him back before December 1st?

Or, excuse, yeah, that's their first game after the bias. December 1st. Why would you bring him back before December 1st? I'm not sure because he wants to. I mean, I and it seems like he does. But that's like if they lost today, they'd be they'd be not entirely different conversation. Because the Raiders are four and four. And then you just have to at least think about the idea that you wouldn't make, you wouldn't win the AFC West. That that that changes everything. This was a massive, massive win for the chief. So I, I'm going to agree with you. I think I would sit him out for December 1st. Absolutely. Because, I mean, I think that the, who is the team you would fear when it comes to the two seed? Houston? Baltimore, who's, who's, oh, yeah.

Seven and two. I didn't even think about that. Who's probably going to get the two seed? Yeah. It's so funny how much things have changed in the past two weeks as I've been kind of evaluating this. Yeah. Maybe. Honestly, this might be true.

I mean, they have the same record as Houston. and then I know we're not, listen, at this point, at this point, it's not going ahead of ourselves, the bills have a higher winning percentage. But I think the way the Ravens have played might change your

urgency. I really do. I don't know, man. I got to tell you. Maybe it shouldn't, but I don't think it should, but maybe that does. Because we've talked about this so much. Having that buy is so important. It really is.

the Ravens and Texans play in two weeks, so we'll see what happens there. But listen, if I'm Brett Veach, if I'm Andy Reid, I understand the need to get him out there to get the two-seat or whatever. But if I think there's any chance he could re-injure the knee,

this is the guy, Patrick Mahomes, is going to be good for 15 years. I mean, maybe more. I mean, like, guys go till they're like 42 now, so maybe more. Yeah, I think you have to think about it that way, even if it's not a guarantee.

You have to. You have to. You start negotiating for a contract very soon. He's going to be a chief for as long as time goes, as long as the sun burns out. And so why would you, why would you say, oh, we got to get that two seed? I just think that's, that's kind of the type of thinking where if it's risky. And listen, if the doctor say he's ready to go, let's let it rip. like I'm 100% in on this and they can come back next week.

But I'm saying if there's the chance internally, if they're saying, oh, we might be taking a little bit of a risk, I would not take that risk. I would not either. By the way, we won't know. We will not know this.

If he could be completely cleared on Tuesday and they play and whatever, but we won't have all the information. And so it's going to be hard on the back end for us to criticize anything that the chiefs do. So I just, I'm just saying, if I was thinking, if I hear those words, it might be a risk, I would give him an extra week.

Because the two-seat first to three-seat is not that important relative to the health of Patrick Freaking-Mohomis. Over the next 10 years of your franchise, I err on the side of caution. I think that we're on the same page here. I wouldn't be surprised if he plays next week if it's possible because I think that NFL teams are inherently short-sighted. But that's, I would think of it in terms of, all right, if there is a like a 5% chance that him playing next week will do long.

term damage. I think that you just let him sit down. Because we've seen what they can do. I mean, they just beat a really good team today. If this was a situation where you weren't functional without him, I think it changes the calculus. But they're beyond functional.

There are good teams still without him, again, because of Andy Reid. Yep. I'm with you. All right. Let's stick with those AFC contenders. We don't have to go long on this.

I just, I was up at 8.30 in the morning watching it happen today. Deshaun Watson just, like, knocks me on my ass sometimes. It's unbelievable the type of stuff he can pull off. And I think that they have decent players there. You know, I think that the Hopkins fuller combination when that offense is really working is, he's not doing it himself. But I think today there were a handful of plays where it's just, to Sean Watson, exclamation point, and that's all there is to say.

Yeah, he attributed it to eating Popeye's sandwiches after the game, which is nice product placement there. He's already, he's already a mid-career veteran as far as knowing how to get, how to get paid. But yeah, I mean, this is, this guy keeps doing special stuff every week. And it's incredible. And I just, you know, he is, he's another one of these players where I, I am. I will believe anything he does in a football field right now. Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

He's great. And you can see why, and it was obviously a terrible trade value-wise, but you can see why Bill O'Brien would want to go in on protecting this guy with Laramette tonsill type trade because two first round picks, steep price to pay, still got to give him a lot of money. But the most important thing needs to be protecting this guy at all costs. And we've joked a lot about, you know, how badly they've done at that. And obviously, you know, congrats to the Texans on Deshaun being able to fly over to London.

That was very, it's a big step. But it's, it's, it's, this is the team we thought they could be. We knew they would be a good team for 2019 because of what they invested. Again, I still think it's a shame J.D. Watts out for this season. We're not going to see them at full strength. But this is, you know, these are the performances we thought we'd say. Yeah, the defense thing I think is unfortunate. I mean, I don't know how good that defense can be now.

you know, their secondary is kind of a mess, know what, in terms of like the overall peak of what this team can be, I think it's not to the degree that like the chiefs and the Patriots will be. And I'm honestly, even at the Ravens.

Yeah. I mean, I think you have to throw them in there too. It's, I think that this isn't the year, but I still think that having him motivates you to try to do everything you can to win a Super Bowl. And I don't fault them for trying to do it.

Because I think he, He is that good, and I think today was a reminder of that. You want to talk about two other tangentially related quarterbacks who made news today, Gardner Minchu and then Jacobi Bressat? Yes. So, yeah, and so now we have a Gardner, Minshu quarterback controversy in Jacksonville, do we? Yeah, I think that the problem with Minchu, and it was always going to be this way, is that resources tend to dictate decision making. And the Fools thing was the ball. far for Minshu to clear was always so high because of the money that Jacksonville put into

Foles. And I think now we're getting to this point where he may not have cleared it. I would give him a chance and I would see what I could get for Foles this offseason. But we've seen teams be way less risk, like way less risk averse than that in the past. Yeah. So I think that in order to slam the door on a very expensive quarterback, you've got to leave no doubt. I think Doc Prescott closing the door on Tony Romo was a blueprint for that where they didn't even think about going back to Tony Romo by the time that decision was made. If you remember that,

I remember for basically the first, what, six weeks of the season, everybody was like, oh, Tonyo was that? Yeah, what was that? What was that? Was it a back injury? It was a collarbone. Oh, was a collarbone. So that's like an eight to ten week thing. I believe it was a collarbone. Which, again, that's, that's funny here. then Dak Prescott had they it was like they made it all in one day Tony Romo gave like a concession speech it was all kind of weird it was all kind of weird to be honest with you and everybody was like he's being so classy about it and I always got the vibe that he was pretty upset about it anyway that's that's like just publicly just reading the two leaves when I saw the press comments they

were like what a classy response I was like it seems like easily a competitor he probably wants to start on this team that might win the Super Bowl anyway enough about the 2016 Cowboys. You know, look, Russell Wilson beat out Matt Flynn, his rookie year, but Matt Flynn was making, what, eight a year, something like that. It was not, you know, one of the highest, one of the biggest free agents of the season the previous year. So I don't know.

I mean, I think that they'll give Foles a chance to get his job back, whether that's in practice or not, or they put him in a game. I don't know. But the Jaguars, we've seen, we kind of know what they might look like with Foles, but unfortunately, after Sunday, we know what the downside of Minchew is. I don't know. I don't know where you go from here. Well, I mean, yeah, the 2019 Jaguars are not the 2016 Cowboys.

Like, they're four and five. Or the 2012 Seahawks. Yeah. I mean, it just, I would assume they go back to Foles later. I think this is more about a, this is more a question to me about. And by the way, Minchu is not Dak Prescott, by the way, just so anyone, no one thinks that I make that comparison or Russell Wilson. I think that he's had some really good moments.

I wrote something about kind of this idea that's going to. run next week about what those moments can mean and how kind of translatable they are and all that stuff. I think that what Gardner Minshu has done is that he has shown the league that he deserves a chance. And I don't know if that's in Jacksonville, but I think it's somewhere. I feel like one of those guys will not be on the roster next year. And I think that games like today make it more likely that Gardner Minshu is the guy that ends up on another team somewhere next year. Hmm. Right?

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I honestly, what Jacksonville will do with this roster, we've talked about it. I think I'm more encouraged and I thought I would be with Jacksonville for the first half of the season. I just, I'm ready. I honestly think it's foolish to guess. Even what would Fools will look like coming back from injury as well.

Yeah, but I think that, again, like the resource is part of it. I mean, if, so if they trade foals, I think his cap hit next year is like 21 million. And I think if they traded him, it would be 18. So they'd save money. But it still makes more sense to me that you would stick with the guy you spent that much on and that Minshu would be somebody you could trade for something. I don't necessarily think I, I don't know if I, that's what I would do. I don't know if that's the right choice.

But I think if we're playing it out a hundred times, that's the most likely outcome to me. yeah i don't know um i i i know that that's a bad answer right now but i just i think there's just i have no idea what the jaguars will do i mean by the way this is a team that gave nick foles all that money in the first place because they wanted to be a leader in the locker room yeah i mean it's but that stuff happens no i'm just saying like i'm just saying to put myself in the decision-making shoes of tom coflin might be slightly foolish but it's also like that that stuff matters like them no all i'm just saying that i'm just saying that i'm just saying that I know. I'm just saying guessing what's going to happen there is hard because I can't.

Tom Coughlin views things differently than I. That's why he's won two Super Bowls. And I'm, I've won zero. All right. Let's do one more here. The Seattle Seahawks and their quarterback. I mean, we've talked about them all year. I just think that as we discuss the NFC and as teams like Green Bay lose today, as team, the Vikings lost today, you know, the Eagles looked very pedestrian against the Bears. We have yet to see Dallas play. If Russell Wilson is this guy,

I think there's kind of a why not to the Seahawks right now. That's how I would frame. For sure. For sure. I mean, first of all, D.K. McCaff, good draft pick. Very fast, very big. It works for them. We knew, we knew that this was going to, we knew that he could do a job, right? I mean, that's the whole thing about coaching and offenses, putting guys, musicians succeed. We knew what the sort of optimal version of D.K.

McCaff was and the C.Ox are putting in position, at least on Sunday. So that's great. Yes. I mean, Russell Wilson is, if the season ended today, who's your MVP? It's him. I mean, we all pick him at the ringer? I don't know. I haven't read that post.

I mean. I did. No, no, Danny Kelly screen grabbed it and at least like four of us did. Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. I think that after today, the Lamar Jackson thing is probably, you know, you can make a case. I think the case could be very real. I don't think you'd be throwing darts. But I think there's a group there.

I think there's a group. It's Wilson, Watson, and Jackson right now. Wilson has 22 touchdowns, one interception, three-lunch touchdowns. Wait, who do you want to throw in there? No, I think that's the group. I think you're trying to throw Rogers in there? No, I'm not. No.

You sound like you want to throw somebody in there. Just do it. Do it, do it, coward. It's more so that I haven't thought about it in that way. I haven't grouped those three guys together, but I think you're right. It's maybe I'm being a prisoner of the moment. I think that maybe I'm tearing it. Like I think that Wilson and Lamar and then I think that Deshaun is probably one step down.

Is that fair? Yeah, I guess. Maybe it's team success. I don't know. The MVP thing is always so silly. I guess. I'm putting them all three in one tier and they can have eight weeks to sort it all out.

Yeah, you're probably right. You're probably right. I just think that Wilson has played essentially flawless football for most of the seasons. He would get my non-existent vote if I had to vote today. I agree. All right. Anything else about Ciox? No, I is.

I just think that it's again, so I did my midseason power rankings on Friday. And what I wrote about Seattle was essentially that they're flawed. Like they, this is a team that has so many issues. But when it comes to, especially right now as things are so muddled, when you're trying to like build contenders, if you have a quarterback playing at this level, you are relevant and you are dangerous. And that's essentially how I feel about Seattle right now.

Yeah, I saw that's down from the NFL, Russ Wilson's only player in the Super Bowl era with 22 or more past touchdowns and one or fewer interceptions in the first nine games the season. So what he's doing is actually unprecedented. And it's not sheep either. Like it's the throws he's making all of that stuff. It's, you know,

occasionally we can have things where, all right, you know, you do a little like pitch pass on the two yard line to get a touchdown. You have like five dropped interceptions, whatever. It's he's not doing that. Like every single bit of his production and what he's been is real.

It's earned. And I think that's why they're so scary. Yeah. I mean, this was, by the way, we're acting like they blew the bucks out. I mean,

this was a one score game that was actually, it went to, you know, this was an overtime game. Okay. So like, that's the thing about them, right?

Like, I think they're not that good of a team. I just think that he's so good that it's, that it's, that's what makes them relevant. I think they're immensely flawed. So I have some good news, Rob. We're about to find out if they're immensely flawed because they have Niners, Eagles, Vikings, Rams, Panthers.

That's the next five games. And I think that Eagles game is huge. We talked about it on the Thursday show. I mean, I think they could absolutely miss the playoffs because of just, again, the issues with the rest of their roster. but he's playing so well that it's impossible to ignore. Do you think the Eagles are a better team than the Seahawks? Yes.

So I think, uh, all right. What? Give me, give me three seconds to think about this. In what way? Like, what does that question mean? When the Eagles and the Seahawks play,

do you think the Eagles will win? Maybe not. I don't know. It's, it's like, it's exactly what we talked about with the Eagles on the Thursday show. I just, the talent is such that I want to convince myself that maybe they're better. Yeah, I would not.

Like, they did not look good today. They beat a shitty team today. They sure did. If you took the names off and I hadn't picked the Eagles to win the Super Bowl, I think that I'm not, I think that I wouldn't even, this wouldn't even be a debate. I think that that's true for both of us. I think from what we've just seen with the eye test over the past eight, nine weeks. So the eye test, yes.

The eye test. What's other than the eye test? If you lined up the rosters. But the rosters are just, we've seen eight weeks of the rosters. But it's, okay, let's, let's do this. Because I think this is an interesting discussion. What about the Seahawks is better than the Eagles? Like, what area are the Seahawks better than the Eagles?

Quarterback. And I think that's it. What about secondary? The Seahawks. defense is not good, man. The Eagles give up a touchdown every time the quarterback knows how to throw a forward pass. Sure, but like the Seahawks defense is not good. I understand that.

I understand that. If you were doing like a box checking every area of the team, I think the Seahawks have a better quarterback and maybe a better secondary, but it's not, it's not as if they're blowing at them out. No. The Seahawks defense has been actively bad. The Seahawks don't, listen, the Seahawks don't have the, the, the, the, the, Patriots secondary here. Okay.

But the Eagles have some flaws that are just like pretty glaring. Okay. I mean, like it's, it's pretty bad. And so even though I think that the last time, I checked this last week, I think the Seahawks past defense is literally in the 20s. It is.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, but the Eagles right now, they're so banged up. They're slow back there. P. Carroll is, I think,

a pretty good defensive coach to where I think that that might get better as the times, I'm sorry, he's a very good. defensive coach, but he's certainly pretty good at defensive backs to the point that I think that might get better as time goes on. They're 20th in defense right now. And I think if you have the best quarterback in football, which they looks like they might, that's enough to get you there. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I'm just saying if we were lining it up, I think that's the only

area with conviction you could say they're better. And that's probably all that matters at this point. What, quarterback? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you're right. I mean, I just, I just think right now from what I've seen, I would, I would go with the Seahawks, a better team. All right. Let's, uh, by the way, by the way, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll enjoy this. The, uh, Eagles defense is 21st in the NFL. So there you go, right? I mean, it's right there.

It's, I think that it's, it's a fascinating discussion about, like, how much quarterback matters. All right. Before we move on, let's see a quick break. With two thirds of guys experiencing noticeable hair loss by age 35, most guys assume losing their hair is inevitable as they, they, age. Some don't care. Some shave their head, some embrace hats. But what they don't know is that there are FDA-approved medications designed to stop hair loss and even regrow hair. That's why we're excited

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Best of all, every donation supports the Justin J. Watt Foundation and their work to empower and inspire children through support. Once again, that's omaze.com slash NFL show. promo code NFL show 150. Let's stick with the Eagles a little bit here because we're going to get to stock down. how all right let's let's start the clock right now how long do we have to talk about the bears um well i'll just ask you questions and you can answer them i'm all right i'm i'm i'm ready okay do you feel worse than you did last week yes or have you lost the ability to feel i don't feel worse because i've lost the

ability to feel okay on a practical level um i the information coming into my as i as i I process it is worse. Okay. Does that make sense? There's no emotion tied to it, but as I try to like analyze it and and think about it in a pragmatic way, it's worse. That's what I would say. Okay.

On a scale of one to ten, how much did it hurt watching Matt Moore win a game when the chiefs had no idea he was going to have to play when your team cannot score points or even complete a successful forward pass with the number two overall pick. It's tough because I want to think that it's the quarterback, and I really do. And I want to, the way that I was talking about today, and I think I do believe this, I do think you could win with a bad quarterback in the NFL. We've seen it over and over and over again. Think about how many teams have backups this year that have done okay.

I mean, the chiefs are just the latest example. I feel like as I watch this team, the shortcomings of the quarterback have crept into everything else. I think that it affects the game planning. I think that it affects the way the defense is playing. I think it affects everything. It's not about the drop off to me from what Mitchell Tribisky is to whoever else. I don't think that Chase Daniel is necessarily a better quarterback than Mitchell Shibisky is right now. I just think that if you want to convince your locker room that you're

trying to do everything you can to win, it's tough to trot him out there right now. That's what I would say. Okay. I have two more questions. If you were a McCasky, how seriously would you look at firing Matt Nagy? I wouldn't. Zero percent. Okay. The Ryan Pace thing is an entirely different conversation. That, okay, that's the last question. Final last. question. If you were a McCasky, probably wouldn't have to do this podcast. But how seriously would you look at perhaps firing Ryan Pace? I would definitely think about it. That's it. Which is expand on potentially firing your GM? So the Pace thing is I, this is tough for me because I think if you like go back and look at all the things I've read or I've written or tweeted or whatever,

the receipts are pretty bad. But I think with Pace, there is enough of a poor track record where you could rationalize it. I think that a lot of the signings have been bad. I think that this offseason for him was terrible. And there were limited resources, obviously. They were pretty much up against the cap. But the Buster Screen contract is unacceptable. The Mike Davis contract is unacceptable.

I think the Trey Brunswick. Burton thing, even in the moment I was like, all right, fine, but that's a terrible contract. The way he has treated draft picks is not something you can do in the modern NFL. Trading away a future fourth round pick to go get David Montgomery is inexcusable. And he's done it consistently. With Nagy, I think that the scheme is still there. I've seen enough moments where I would bet on it with a different quarterback. and I think that he's earned the right to try to do it with a different quarterback.

But I think the way they've built this team, you could definitely make an argument that the GM needs to change. That's what I would say. Okay. Let's move on to another topic. One that doesn't pain you as much. I really don't want to. All right.

You want to ask more questions? Let's talk about the Colts for a second. That's fine. The Colts who are going to have more success with Brian Hoyer. Then the Bears are having with Mitchell Trabis. The Bears have with Mitchell Trabisky. All right. Yeah, we don't know the serious is the Preset's injury.

But Brian Hoyer comes in. Look, if you were to say, if you were to tell the Colts that they were going to lose Jacoby Brissette, Brian Horacee. He was going to immediately throw a touchdown. They'd be competitive against an OK Steelers team. They take that because Brian Hoyer, listen, your starting quarterback retires in preseason, Jacobi Brissette exceeds everybody's expectations. It's been very good quarterback.

But at some point, it has to catch up with you're dealing with what started out being a third-string quarterback. So I think with the Colts, the question I have for you is, was the ceiling for them this season always just being a semi-feel good story? I mean, if you look at the game, they won. I mean, I think they could, they definitely could have won the division. And they still can. If Chicago Bresset can come back and be healthy. But do you, like, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, they probably could have.

And they've had some impressive wins. And they've, when you look at the actual standings, of course they could have. But like just based on this team, the talent that they have, was this always the destiny? Where it's like, okay, they won some games. They're impressive. Frank Reich is arguably the coach of the year. But as we get down to brass tacks, there was no way they could do this. I don't know if that's true.

I don't think you can count out any team. I'm asking the question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get what you're saying, but I don't think you can count out any team with that good of a coaching staff and that good of infrastructure. I tend to agree with you. I think that the lesson of football over and over and over is that smart teams beat dumb teams.

And even when you think that there's a huge talent disparity or quarterback disparity or even a coaching disparity, whatever it is, like those things, smarts matter. And they show up and they show up in the playoffs. And they show up in weird road playoff games. We're not expecting it. And all of a sudden, a huge upset of it. pulled and five years later we say well of course that team pulled the upset look who their coach was look who their coordinators were look where their GM was you can reverse engineer in in the

in hindsight right but you cannot see it coming unless you can figure out who the smart people are who are going to go in and pull those upsets without Jacoby brissette this doesn't like a team that's going to do that but I don't think you can ever count a genuinely smart team and at this point with Chris Ballard and Frank Reich the Colts are one of the smartest teams in football I think the Patriots are always at a different level. But then there's a group of teams. I haven't thought about this. I don't get mad if I don't name your team.

But, you know, Baltimore is up there. New Orleans. I think is up there. New Orleans. In Indianapolis. Yeah, I mean, those are the teams. And I would say most years, I perpetually probably, Philadelphia is up there. I mean, they won the Super Bowl because they're smart.

The same regime is still there. They birthed Frank Reich's, you know, eventual head coaching job, right? So I think the smart teams win, dumb teams lose. And the culture of smart teams. team. So I don't think you can ever put a real ceiling on a team with the Colts when everybody's healthy. If you look at their schedule, there have been a lot of close wins. Okay. So they beat the Falcons by three. They beat the Titans by two. They beat the Broncos last week by two. They're doing so much, and it's enviable. And I want to preface this by saying, I think that what Frank Reich

and what every single aspect of that organization has done this year is amazing. But I do think that maybe they're not as good as we thought they were. And maybe this is a little bit smoking mirrors and they're destined to be a nine and 17 this year. And that's okay. That's unbelievable considering not only the luck thing, but the injuries they've dealt with everywhere else. I mean, the job that the team building side

and the coaching side has done this season is remarkable. But I do think that if we're talking about, again, tiers of teams, they're just one step down. And they're going to be maybe a team that sneaks in and that's all they are. And I think that's probably okay. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, look, we may not, may not find out. And Bressett might be out.

They might have to do the Brian Hoyer thing for a couple weeks. That might be. Yeah, that's probably over the playoffs. But, you know, again, I just think that even if this is the end of the road for them, if Berset is out for the year or he's out for four weeks and they fall out of it, whatever, I still think that, you know, we've learned a lot about what this organization is and I've come away even more impressed than I was. Yeah, I agree with you. I think the exact same thing. I just feel like when you're talking about

the best teams in the league, they probably fall just a bit short right now. For sure. And that's okay. No, no, no, no, no argument from me. Yeah, and that's okay. They are not on the tier in the AFC with Patriots and then Chiefs, Ravens. And then I certainly at this point, not the Texans, if they don't have their quarterback. And that's okay. It's totally fine. I think what they've done is so impressive. I think that they are, like you said,

one of the best run organizations. Their future is very bright. It's just at a certain point, you just don't have it. You don't have the guys to do it. And I think that we've reached that point with them a little bit. All right.

Packers. One more stock down. Do you think this is a blip for the Packers? Do you think this is, did you learn anything? Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of how I feel, too. I mean, I just, they laid an egg on the West Coast.

I would put more stock in the first half of the season than this one game. I'm not too worried. I mean, this is what we talked about. The narratives reverse each other every single time. I mean, the Vikings are, you know, the Vikings look like the best offense of football for a number of weeks.

Kirk Cousins wins NFL quarterback of the month or whatever, and then he loses the map more. Like, these things just tend to happen. Steelers. We all sat around dunking on the Steelers three weeks ago. The Make-A Fitzpatrick trade looked like a huge overpay and all of a sudden he just scores touchdowns every couple of place. Like this is just... I think it still probably is, but yeah. Yeah, no, I know. But we're, you know, again, these things just happened. The Browns,

are we going to have to, are you doing the Browns for the challenge flag? We just have to talk with them for 20 minutes on Thursday. Let's do 20 minutes on Thursday because our challenge flag is the same. Okay. I just so just so everybody knows, we're going to do, we will do, we promise a deeper dive and the disaster that is the Cleveland Browns. Yeah, we will do that. But there's a lot of stuff that happened today. So it's,

I mean, it's basically, I mean, that's, we need to, like, read their obituary. But let's put that aside for a second and read a different type of obituary. The Packers, I think we're on the same page. I think that you have moments. I think this team is going to be fine.

The only thing I'll say about this is that this loss is a bad thing because the Saints probably have the inside track now. I think that's the only problem. It's the only issue with, like, I think that Green Bay and New Orleans are right there with each other. And the losing a game like this is a bad thing because you don't want to go to New Orleans to play the NFC championship game. That's the only thing I have to say about this.

I think they'll be fine, but that's the issue. I thought that the Packers were always not going to get home field. I thought that the same thing. Oh, see, I thought they had a chance. Once Drew Brees got back and they didn't drop a game with Teddy Ridgewater, I thought that that might have been it. Yeah, I thought they were kind of neck and neck.

I honestly did. But I think that this is a big loss. And then obviously, we can talk about the Niners later. I think that the Niners are very good. I don't know if they're as good as the Saints and the Packers. I haven't decided that yet. We're doing a lot of two-seat talk today. Because it matters, man.

Like, it really does. Yeah. No, I know. I know. For sure. But I just think that I always saw the Saints as cut slightly above, half a cut above the Packers. I think if I really was honest with myself,

I would agree with you. And I did a, when I did the rankings yesterday, I put the Saints higher just because I do think their roster is better. And I also think that we've seen it with the Saints, right? We've seen that team accomplish those things. We've seen how good they can be. With the Packers,

it's still a bit of a projection. For as good as they've been in stretches, this is new. You know, they're still trying to figure out who they are. They're footing, all of that stuff. With the Saints, there's no speculation.

The Saints, this is the team they are, and we've seen how good they can be and now Breeze is back. So I do think there are some, like a slight cut above. But we'll see what happens. All right. Let's get to that obituary. It's for Adam Gase's coaching career. We're going through challenge flags here very quickly. We have the same one.

I just, what do you have to say about the New York Jets at this point? The Dolphins tanking plan was going so well until somebody else hired Adam Gays. It's so beautiful and so appropriate that Adam Gase would fuck up the Dolphins tanking plan. There's something so amazing about it. It's my favorite thing that happened today. It's amazing. I mean, this is, I think Patrick Dodger is the one who tweeted this, but that was the ultimate Adam Gase revenge game was screwing up the Dolphins tank.

We thought it was like the worst case scenario happened, which is Adam Gase was so inept, accidentally screwed up the Dolphins plan again. That was amazing. I just don't know. Listen, Sam Darnold has regressed. It's making throws he shouldn't make. If I was at Johnson and I'm looking at this or I'm Joe Douglas, I know that, again, that situation gets complicated because of when he was hired and, you know, probably who hired him.

Also, they have a history. There's a lot of stuff going on there. Of course. No, what I'm suggesting is like, Gase helped, just timing wise, Gase helped Douglas get the job. And so now it would be weird for whatever. Anyway, putting that aside for a second. If I'm a Johnson who was not hired by Adam Gase, I was only hired because their brother took a job as an ambassador.

If I'm Chris Johnson, I'm looking at Sam Darnold. And I'm seeing a regression, and I'm saying the most valuable commodity in sports is a good franchise quarterback. And it looks like our man, Adam Gase, is screwing with that. And he needs to not be able to do that. anymore. So of all the first year head coaches that have struggled, right?

So if we're laying them out, Freddie Kitchens, Gase, I think those two probably Zach Taylor. Okay, that's fair. All right. So we're laying those three out. I think that there's the best argument for Gase to be gone after this year. I think you could absolutely make it about Kitchens, but I have no idea how you can rationalize bringing Adam Gase back next year.

Yeah, I mean, you just can't. I mean, maybe before this, if they went five and 11 or something, okay, well, there's the building box or in place or whatever BS you want to tell yourself. This is regression. It's disaster. This is, you know, I think that if you're a Jets fan, you miss Todd Bulls right now. Look, Joe Douglas, I think, is going to be a good executive. He just can't, he cannot have this big of a disaster on his hands the first year

and not make massive changes. Now, I will say this is important, waiting in the wings. interim coach Greg Williams, baby. We saw what we did with the Browns last year. Maybe that's the Brown's problem is that they got rid of Greg Williams. He was holding it all together. That's the issue. He was holding it all together.

No, I mean, I just think we can, we could use, I actually don't think Greg Williams is all that great of a coach, but what I will say is that we can use, you know, six or seven weeks of just Greg Williams press conferences. I'm in. I think you made this joke maybe like a month ago about how, if the offense wasn't going to be good, that there's the sitting down with the Bob's kind of question.

Yeah, right. What is it that you do here? I did say this day on that last week. If you're not going to see progression and improvement from Sam Darnold, then there's no reason for Adam Gates to be your head coach. It's not as if he has this track record where it's undeniable. It's somebody you have to stick with. That doesn't exist.

The entire appeal to him was maybe he didn't have the level of talent, in Miami that he was going to have here after they spent all this money and they have this young quarterback that you're excited about. But that's over now. I mean, they are literally the worst offense in football. They're worse than the Dolphins. And I know that Sam Donald didn't play for a chunk of the season, but teams have gotten by with their backup quarterbacks

and they weren't historically bad offenses. I just don't think that you can make any argument as to why the status quo right now with the Jets is something that you should continue. No argument here. What do you want to do for the tomorrow's headlines? Tomorrow's headlines is going to be Lamar hype. Yeah. I think that it's the Lamar Jackson kind of MVP hype train, you know, where they stand,

all of that stuff. I'm not sure there's any other option at this point. For the most part, it was kind of a dull week outside of him doing what he did. Yeah. I mean, he's, again, he saved a very dull slate of football. I think that there were some bad football that would have gotten us through. as far as talking points go, Adam Gase, the Browns would have had a bigger chunk of the show

had he not come through with all this excitement. But really, I mean, he saved a very boring week with an electrifying performance. It's Lamar Week, and Mallory Rubin is going to be a very happy person as a result. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much for listening. We will be back on Thursday with the Week 10 preview.

Until then, please go read it. the ringer.com. Thank you so much for listening to The Ringar NFL show on the Brigger Podcast Network.