The Ringer NFL Show - Lamar Jackson Should Never Play for the Ravens Again | The Island

Episode Date: December 21, 2022

Welcome to ‘The Island’! Each week a guest tries to persuade Nora Princiotti to agree with an argument they feel strongly about. This week’s guest is The Ringer’s Steven Ruiz, who details why Lamar Jackson should find a new home outside of Baltimore. Will Nora join him on the island, or sail elsewhere? Host: Nora Princiotti Guest: Steven Ruiz Associate Producer: Stefan Anderson Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Peace! We're out of here. And I didn't want to do this again. It's a second straight island episode where I'm suggesting. this. If we can't fire Greg Roman, can we at least look into possibly framing him for a crime? Hello and welcome to the island for your NFL show. I'm Nora Pucciotti. I am here with the icon, a staple of the island. Stephen Ruiz. Stephen, welcome to the show. Great to have you back. What's your take? I needed a third island. So, and I had to, I had to search far and wide for this

third island. And I think I found it two weeks ago. I was riffing on a pod. And I, I, I think I said that Lamar Jackson should never play another down for the Baltimore Ravens. And I got some pushback on that take from Ben Solac and Danny Hyfitz. They were like, what do you mean? This year? No, never, never again. In the history of the earth, he should never wear a Ravens uniform again and never play for this team again. That's the island I'm on. And I'm asking you to join me on it.

Think of the island like a record, spinning on a turntable. Only now, that record is skipping. Oh, wow. Wow, this is spicy. All right. So Lamar currently rehabbing a knee injury. He's missed the last two games. He didn't practice yesterday. Inraport for Metafel Network reported that the Ravens are expecting him at practice this week at some point and, quote, hopeful that he'll play this weekend against the Falcons. So this really might be his last opportunity to, if we get through to him, Stephen, if you convince Lamar, that this has got to be the end to never play another down of football in Baltimore. Explain to me why Lamar should do this. Well, I'm going to start with one premise. And there seems to be this premise that

the Ravens were the team that believed in Lamar Jackson. They drafted him. They built an offense that was supposedly built for him. They've really invested in the run game. They've used him as a runner. But I push back against that notion. I don't think the Ravens do believe in Lamar, I think they could say to believe in Lamar Jackson, but nothing they've done.

Going back to when they drafted him, says that they believe in him. First of all, they drafted Haydenhurst over him. They drafted Haydenhurst a few picks before Lamar Jackson. And the only reason they traded up to get him is so they had this fifth year option, which, by the way, he's only the third quarterback to ever play on the fifth year option. You know who the other two were? James Winston and Marcus Marriota, two quarterbacks that their teams famously believed in them. Why is Lamar Jackson a MVP in his second year?

Famous recipients of belief James Winston and Marcus Verietta. Why is he the third? Why is a unanimous MVP the third to play on a fifth year option? Actually, he's not the third. That's a lie. Daniel, like Daniel Jones, no, Daniel Jones got his decline, but Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold also played on there. Sam Darnel played up.

But those are the Panthers. Those don't count. For the team that drafted him. Yeah, so I would say they don't believe him. They put him in this offense that doesn't ask him to be a dropback passer that suggests they don't believe in him as a passer and his development as a passer. They haven't put receivers around him like we've seen other teams do with their with their up-and-coming franchise quarterbacks like Josh Allen.

They traded for Stefan Diggs. Even to a tag of I low, they traded for Tyree Kill. There are a lot of example. Jalen Hertz got A.J. Brown. Trevor Lawrence got Christian Kirk to big money deal. and then they traded for Calvin really. Like all these other teams are... Stephen, why are you got to fit the two a shot in there?

Even to a tag of my low, I got this. It's always something. I didn't want to put him in the same breath as these other quarterbacks, but I felt like he needed to be mentioned. And it helps my argument if I have a third person. It just helps with the rhythm of the argument. Don't say Tua never did anything for you. That's right.

That's the first time he's ever been useful. Never mind. There's enough about Tua. This is about the Ravens. They don't believe in Lamar Jackson. And why should he believe in them? Okay. So counterpoint.

This offseason, the reason Lamar is playing on his fifth year option without any sort of long-term solution is that he turned down a five-year offer from the Ravens for around $250 million with $130-something million fully guaranteed. So that's roughly the Russell Wilson. deal. Now, he viewed the 230 million fully guaranteed five-year deal that Deshaun Watson got from the Browns as a benchmark. So turned it down because it didn't meet that qualification.

But let's be fair. It's not as though the Ravens haven't attempted to make a long-term commitment. How do you see that offer? Were they, you know, insultingly low in trying to get him on that type of deal? Do you think it's fair that Lamar just walked away from that and said, you know what, we'll deal with this later? What do you think the type of contract that he would need would be to feel wanted, seen, appreciated,

believed in by the Baltimore Ravens? I would say like something close to what Josh Allen got. I don't see why Josh Allen has earned this money already while Lamar Jackson hasn't. Like, playoff success. Maybe he has like one or two more playoff wins. He hasn't been

as consistently good as Lamar Jackson has been. I think his highs have been higher, but his lows have been much lower. He hasn't won MVP. He has help around him. We've never seen him succeed without help around him because during his rookie year, when he was dealing with a similar supporting cast, he was a rookie and was bad. That's what I would say.

And then we could bring up the Deshaun contract in how unreasonable expecting a massive deal like that to be fully guaranteed. Okay, just to be clear here. So Josh Allen signed a six. year extension. So the six-year contract, 258 million, 150 million guaranteed, averages out to a little over 43 million per season. So that's not super different than what, I mean, you know, 130 million guaranteed versus 150. Like, that's certainly something. But it's in the ballpark of what the Ravens were, we're offering Lamar. I think the difference to Lamar is,

is the fully guaranteed deal, which for other quarterbacks, Josh Allen included, has not been the sticking point that it is for him. He is negotiating for himself also. And it seems like that's something that he really wants, which he's fully, fully entitled to press for. But it's not as if they, they, you know, if we use that Josh Allen contract as a benchmark, it's not as if they undercut him super, super seriously. Not really, but if you compare the history of contracts and when they're signed and how much money people get, they did kind of undercut him because usually it's the next guy to get paid is the highest to get paid. You've seen Jimmy Garoppolo be the highest paid player in NFL history at one point,

having only played seven games. And I wonder like why are we hesitant to pay Lamar but not Josh Allen. I would say Josh Allen has a more reckless playing style, playing style that we've seen doesn't age well. If you look at Cam Newton, there was a clear point in his career. He was used as a runner too, especially around the goal line.

And everything fell apart in an instant, like three or two years after his MVP campaign. So, like, I think the fact that Lamar didn't get that money or isn't getting the Josh Allen money and the Ravens aren't acting happy to just fork it over to him is one point of contention. And then I would also say that, Most quarterbacks on their rookie deal, if they've already proven they're the guy,

which I think Lamar has, get their deals done after year three. And if they would have gotten this deal done after year three, there would be no Deshaun Watson contract to point two. And then you could talk about Josh Allen because I think he signed his contract before last off season. I'm not sure about that. But I know Patrick Mahomes did. So I think that the Ravens kind of missed the boat by dragging their feet with this.

And they've set up this situation for themselves. This is the bed they made for themselves. And if Lamar wants a fully guaranteed contract, which I think he's pushed back against on Twitter. Like, like I feel like we're not getting the same level of reporting that we usually do on these contract negotiations because he is his own agent.

Right. Agents are providing that information to the media. So it's hard to say like what's true and what's valid. But at least publicly, Ram is pushing back against it. I don't know that he's saying, I want 230 million fully guaranteed because that's what Deshaun got. It does seem like the extent of the guarantees

is where the rub is. Because, you know, okay, Deshawn 230 on a five-year deal, they offered him 250 on a five-year deal. Like, that's obviously not the issue. Yeah, yeah. My question is, like, what's, why not give Lamar Jackson a fully guaranteed deal? Like, Kirk Cousin's got a fully guaranteed deal.

Obviously, the contract was shorter. But Ryan Tannihil got what basically amounts to a fully guaranteed deal the first time he signed with Tennessee after his breakout year. So it just goes back to my original point. I don't believe that the franchise believes in Lamar Jackson as a long-term quarterback. And if that's the case, I think they're going to continue to build the roster as they've built it where they don't provide him with any help. If they don't believe in him, I don't think Lamar should believe in this organization. And he has all the power.

He has all the leverage in terms of being able to play or deciding whether to play or not. obviously the team can franchise tagging, but he can make that a messy situation. And when quarterbacks make situations messy, things tend to happen. So I just hope that Lamar advocates for himself and uses the agency he does have to at least improve his situation,

whether it's in Baltimore or elsewhere. So here's where I'm totally with you, is that I don't think that the Ravens have done an adequate job of getting the most out of him, of supporting him and I do think it's a little bit odd the degree of trepidation they seem to have about going

full throttle Lamar's our guy. Lamar is 25 years old. By the way, he is nine months older than Stetson Bennett is a thing that I realized today. He is probably more potent just as a single offensive player

than anybody else in the NFL. We've talked extensively about how good he actually is as a pure passer, as a pocket passer, as a dropback passer. He's got really great big playability. He doesn't turn the ball over a lot. And then obviously the rushing ability is incredible from PFF. His 1,781 rushing yards after contact, so after he's been touched,

would rank fifth among all quarterbacks since 2019, just in terms of what they've done before contact after contact. So as a pure player, it's a very short list of who you would rather hit your wagon to than Lamar Jackson. I'm with you that I think it's

unfortunate and I think it's a mistake that the Ravens haven't gotten faster at receiver to take advantage of his passing ability, have seemed kind of stuck in the mud with Greg Roman system, and didn't manage

to get something done with him. on the earlier side. My worry here is a little bit of a grass isn't always greener thing. Because we are still talking about the Baltimore Ravens, who I think all things being considered

are a good franchise. They spend money, they have good facilities, they have a good coach. I can tell you like nothing. I don't know two things about Steve Boshadhi, their owner, which I think is good. generally, I think the more you know about an NFL owner, the worse they're doing.

So my concern is if he, you know, say he forces his way out, you got to pick the situation really carefully. What do you think the ideal is? Miami. Miami. Or the Jets. Miami does. Miami's not doing this. Miami should do it.

What do you mean Miami's not doing it? they almost got banished from the league trying to court a 45-year-old. First of all, Miami doesn't have Miami. So that, so, okay, the Ravens are not letting Lamar walk for nothing. So presumably this is a forced trade situation. He gets franchise tag but says, I don't care. I will take all the fines. I hate you and everything you stand for, you're going to have to trade me.

Because of the Tyree kill trade, Miami doesn't have enough to work with there. I mean, that probably costs, what, three first round picks and some other, you know, sweeteners in the deal? Find a way to do it. I don't care. Like, go trade to a trade. Well, for you, our 2029 first round pick. This is all I'll say.

Mortgage the future for Lamar because in five years, like, you're going to still have Lamar Jackson. I would go out of my way to get him because like you said, he's a one-man offense. The Ravens are 11th in EPA per play. The problem in Baltimore is that he's the one-man offense. Yes. But no, anywhere that has, like, I agree with you, the Ravens are a good organization.

For the last decade, have they been a winning organization? How many playoff games have they won? And how many playoff games have they won without Lamar? It's been a long time since that Joe Flacco Super Bowl. And, like, after Joe Flacco, or after that Super Bowl, there was a five-year stretch where there was questions about John Harbaugh's job security. Baltimore. I used to live around Baltimore. I used to listen to like sports radio. In 2016 or a year

or two before Lamar got drafted, the question is like how many more years of mediocrity are we going to go through before we make a change at head coach. Lamar comes, saves everything, changes everything for that offense, gets them to the playoffs as a second half starter in his rookie year and they haven't looked back since. But I really think Lamar is holding up this perception of John Harbaugh as this winning head coach. I do think he's a very good head coach. And this perception that the Ravens organization is very good. But without Lamar Jackson, I wonder how this last decade looks and how we think about this front office and how we, and if we have to relitigate whether this is a smart franchise that is, because what did they done recently that suggests that they, they understand

how modern football works? Like, what roster building? Name three things about Steve Bishotti. he likes quarterships that's all I got he wears a lot of underarm I've noticed a lot of underarmour well under Armour

is the name sponsor on their beautiful practice facility yes high quality operation going on there like I hear you that they have not done everything to maximize

winning there over the last decade but I just want to preach caution because there are some real dumpster fires in this league. And I cannot sit here and allow us to allege that the Baltimore Ravens are among them. They just simply are not. The offense is a dumpster fire. Sammy Watkins just got signed yesterday and he's already the best receiver on the team.

And he's a guy that got banished from Green Bay who doesn't have receivers. He's basically the ideal person to become Aaron Rogers' new best friend. They go on all the same YouTube channels. They read all the same conspiracy theories. He could have been the new Jake Cumerow. How do you fumble that bag? The only way you do it is by being a bad receiver. And that's why he's in Baltimore right now.

He's not going to say. Deshawn Jackson in 2022 in this economy? Are you serious? Are you serious? I don't know. He has to be. He's probably the guy that was sending Aaron Rogers all those YouTube videos. Hey, Aaron Rogers had a short haircut.

Jake Kumiro radicalized Darren Rogers. She should just end the pod with that. Well, so, okay, here is, like, really truly here is, I think, the ultimate question for me. How many teams are there that Lamar would be better served shooting his way out of town and getting traded to versus the Ravens, moving on from Greg Roman and probably through the draft because the free agent class is bad? getting one or two genuinely good and particularly fast receivers? I'm looking at a list of teams right now, and I'm only looking at the teams that don't have a quarterback. And, like, I would say half of them.

Half of them would offer, like, a better environment that the Ravens have. And it, like, we talk about the names. Okay, Miami is one. The Jets. I would argue Pittsburgh. The Jets, the Jets are in play. Pittsburgh. not Indy.

Houston even has better receivers than the Ravens. Brandon Cooks, they just drafted. The names slip in my mind. Mechie. I would say the Raiders, definitely, the Broncos, the Giants for sure. Washington, you don't, it's 20 minutes away. Detroit, Minnesota.

Every team in the NFL that doesn't have a quarterback. It's better than, because none of them are asking Devin Duvernate to be their wide receiver one. And they're not asking Greg Roman to design an offense where, like, the receivers run routes to the same part of the field, like, once every couple of plays. There were no, like, route conversions after the snap. They have Patrick McCard running routes on third down. He's like a 400-pound fullback who used to play defensive back, and he's a main figure in this offense.

So, honestly, I'm advocating for Lamar to never play down for this team again. but I would be willing to rescind that if John Harbaugh just does one simple thing. Just replace Greg Roman. That's all I asked. It's been four years. And he was asked about it this week, and he made a comment about like,

that's like what people say that sit at the end of the bar and we'll leave it to those people. The last time people at the end of the bar suggested that you fire your offensive coordinator and replace them midseason was 2012, and you fired Cam Cameron and replaced them with Jim Caldwell. And you won a Super Bowl.

you won a Super Bowl your only Super Bowl the end of the bar won you a Super Bowl do not disrespect the end of the bar I love the end of the bar but like the corner of a bar is the best place because then you can talk to your you know whoever you're with

ideal seating original could learn a thing or two Harba right come come with the common folk at the end of the bar not your fancy smancy spots in the middle of the bar okay let's go

back to the teams that you just listed. Here's where I'm with you. Minnesota, Jets, Giants. Can I have the Saints to the list? The Saints. Detroit is compelling.

Here is where I want to be careful, though. And because, again, I think we have to include ownership and the high-level decision-making around a team in this conversation. Because when you're operating at the level of like a massive franchise quarterback contract and the decision-making at that level, that is when NFL owners make a big difference. Ownership is the most underrated thing that points a team in a positive or negative direction.

And it's hard to see because nobody really knows what they do. But I will not sit here and allow us to say that the presence of the over-reliance on Devin DuVernay, I promise you is not as costly in the long term as being part of an organization that has Washington's ownership. Or even, you know, you worry about it a little bit in a place like Vegas, just because you wonder about the ability and willingness to spend on certain things. But of the teams you listed, of the ones that I think,

like, we just got to throw Miami out. They're not doing this. But there's a five-team list there that I think is compelling. Particularly, the Giants is the dream, right? The Giants would be the best possible landing spot. Because they already have,

they've already shown some interest and willingness and efficacy at running on offense where the quarterback's running a lot. And this would just be like going from doing that with a, you know, a Toyota Camry to doing it with a Ferrari. Dayball seems great. Now you don't have the receivers in place, right? So there's questions about can you extend yourself to trade? for Lamar and then also upgrade

the receiving room significantly. They have a lot of money. They used this year to clear a ton of cap space. So they have a lot of money to pay him with or to pay somebody else with. Problem is you're probably going to have a better time finding

top end receiver talent either via trade or in the draft this off season than on the free agent market because it's just you know, it's not a good year for that. But I would, the giants are, I think, staring at you being like, could this ever happen? It would be so cool.

I really like the Lions because the Lions have a top five pick, presumably, that they could trade. They could trade other first round picks, future first round picks. They have Jared Goff, who they could just throw in the deal just to give Baltimore a quarterback. I think Detroit could really put together a package that would make Baltimore, at least think about it. I don't think Baltimore is actually going to consider trading him. But I do think Detroit has the pieces and the resources, and they should have the willingness to put together a huge package for Lamar Jackson. Because I think if you drop Lamar Jackson into what they've built,

that offense, it might be the best offense in the NFL, like if you can keep Ben Johnson around. With that offensive line, that's what we saw. We're going to, you know, by the way, it's a two-way street, right? we're going to go get Lamar Jackson is a really good way to keep Ben Johnson around. Now, if a team offers him, you know, five million bucks a year to come be their head coach, like, I don't know what you're going to do about that.

But if you want to make that look like a really great spot to build your resume, trading for Lamar is a good way to do that. Yeah, that's great. If you kind of look at it in total, it was almost like they would have flipped, Matthew Stafford for Lamar Jackson because they're using that extra draft capital

and then Jared Goff in the trade to get him. Also, it seems like trading Jared Goff away for a better quarterback to win a Super Bowl is a pretty good strategy that worked for the Rams. My thesis of what the Lions should do a quarterback is

sort of exactly that is I think you do have proof of concept that Goff can run this offense successfully and that the outcome of that and you know with Ben Johnson and with their current roster with the offensive line and the running game

as good and supportive of him as it is. It's good enough to make them a good team particularly if they continued to invest defensively but the thing that they cannot do is lose sight of getting someone really good, getting someone who's going to elevate everybody around him in the building. So I'm a little bit

You know, I'm more amenable than some, certainly, to them sticking with Goff for another year if they wanted to say, draft a quarterback who needed some time to develop, or if they just weren't able to find an avenue to someone really great through a free agency, through the draft, through whatever. Like, I don't think that, you know, just because he's Jared Goff necessitates being like, all right, we got to find a way out of this, right? because look at where it's gotten them. That said,

Lamar Jackson is the answer of that, right? Like the fear of any sort of commitment to Jared Goff is that you don't count yourself into a situation like that. So that would be great. I like that one too. I don't know if the Saints just, the state of the roster and the state of their finances, even though that's always the case,

I'm not sure that they could make it happen, but I guess the history of that team says that where there's a will, there's a way. The Jets, definitely interesting. Minnesota, the cousin's thing is just confusing. But if he could get it, but it would be incredible to see Lamar play with Jefferson. I don't know if I can think of, like, that's a pretty good short list. That's a pretty good five-team list that feels worth sticking your neck out and making a fuss. Can I ask you a question?

Can I flip the script on? Okay. Take those five teams and throw the Ravens on the list. And like in a vacuum, all things being equal, Lamar can walk away from his contract and gets to pick where he wants to go. Which team shouldn't he pick in your opinion? The Ravens, I'm including the Ravens, has a choice. and why should it be the Ravens if it's not another team? Because here's my one, let me say one thing before you answer.

You said the Ravens are a good organization, which I agree with. They cultivate cap space. They understand like draft capital and positional value. But how has that benefited Lamar specifically, especially on the offensive side of the ball? Like what have they done? How have they used that extra cap space and draft capital to put players around him? I would argue they haven't and the team has gotten worse. It's like being, it's like being a billionaire, you have a billion dollars in a bank account,

but you can't access the billion dollars. You can't access the bank account. What good is it doing him? I don't think it's doing him any good at all. I think it is doing him some degree of good. I don't think, I do think that they, it's, it's an L that they haven't invested more in the offense, that they haven't. This is on his rookie deal.

This is before he gets paid. Right. I do think that, you know, look, They're a smart organization. They're a savvily analytically inclined organization. You benefit from being part of a team that gets

those edges, that gets those little percentage points of win probability in a lot of situations. I do think that there's a general sense of not craziness there that not every team has.

They seem to have good the medical staff is really, really top-notch. The training facilities are really, really top-notch. Like, that stuff does matter. It is a functional organization. There are several alternatives that do not qualify for that descriptor. The answer to your question, though, is that you are right that if you add the Ravens to that list and say, all else being equal, where should he go? I wouldn't choose the Ravens.

I think I would choose. I would definitely. you might have sold me on the Lions. I think there's a little bit of like I would love to see it for one more year, two more years. We just have a little bit of a track record there. And we also, the question of what happens if the offensive coordinator leaves is present there. I am definitely sold on the Giants. I'm definitely sold on the Lions.

It's a little hard for me to pick between those two. But I think I would pick either of those landing spots currently before the Ravens. I would probably also pick the Jets. Yeah. Which is just like a crazy statement, but the state of that roster is so good. And it seems like the coaching staff has got it figured out. I would probably pick the Jets as well.

I'm not sure if I would pick Minnesota or New Orleans before Baltimore. I just maybe Minnesota. New Orleans. think I would rather, I would rather be a raven than a saint. Okay, I just want, I just want to make this clear. You have now picked the Detroit Lions and the New York Jets. Two of the, the funniest franchise, the most comical, just bad franchises over the Baltimore Ravens. I rest my case.

Get out of there. Time they are changing. All right. I'm not on this island, Stephen, because the problem is. the amount of personal damage that he would have to self-inflict to make this happen is tough. And I don't want to see Lamar go through that. Here's what I think.

I think the Ravens, I am on, the Ravens should move on from Greg Roman and do everything that they possibly can to get some good receivers in there. I would. I think ultimately, in the real world, if I could, if I could just, you know, alien being, Lamar up into my spaceship and drop him on,

and I can't believe it, the lions or the jets or the giants or whoever, I would do it. But when you factor in the cost in fines, in drama, in personal animosity and anger, and the way that an unfair league is going to look at those things, I don't think that,

I think if you're Lamar, the higher, the better outcome, is to say, hey, look, like, we can't reach our ceiling here unless you do these two things or these three things, and they are to pay him somewhere in between the offer that he turned down and the 230 fully guaranteed. Like, find a happy medium there. I don't think he's going to get a fully guaranteed five-year deal. I just don't think it's going to happen.

I think the owners are too hell-bent, all of them. on not allowing the Watson thing to become precedent. I just, I think that is a losing battle. But split it down the middle. It'll still be a... Are given more than Josh Allen. How about that? Give him more than Josh Allen.

Give him more than Josh Allen deal. And, you know, plus inflation. Yeah, right. And bump up the guarantees so that it's somewhere, you know, somewhere closer. guarantee one more season, but not all five of them or something like that. Figure it out that way. And then they absolutely need to change the situation at receiver and change the situation at offense coordinator.

That, I think, is the best possible outcome for Lamar Jackson. No, I agree. And I didn't want to do this again. It's a second straight island episode where I'm suggesting this. If we can't fire Greg Roman, can we at least look into possibly framing him for a crime? This has been the island of the ringer out of El Shopeen. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to Stephen.

Thank you to Stephen's lawyers who may need to be contacted at some point soon. We will be back next week. But for now, Sheila Capadia will be up next on the feed tomorrow going in-depth on NFL News on The Scramble. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for production on this episode and to Connor Nevins and Ardina Ramgapal for additional production for a group of time.