The Ringer NFL Show - Lamar’s Very Real MVP Run, The McVay-Goff Situation, and Wild Card Watch | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: November 11, 2019

After some unexpected losses in Week 10, the playoff race is getting more and more muddled. We discuss which teams to trust and which to be wary of (5:20). Then, a Stock Up led by yet another amazing performance by Lamar Jackson and the Steelers’ increasingly scary defense (12:30) before a Stock Down led by the Cowboys finding ways to lose and the Dolphins’ inability to tank (35:45). Finally, we throw our challenge flags and predict tomorrow’s headlines (50:30).  Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the NFL show is brought to you by State Farm. When you need a game plan for protection, State Farm agents are here to help. With personalized service, agents are available to talk in person over text or through the State Farm app. So go with the one with coverage and agents you can count on. Find an agent in your neighborhood today. State Farm. Talk to an agent today. Zorro.com is where you'll find everything you need for businesses of any size, almost any industry. They have tools, equipment, and supplies for everything you need.

Whether you need stuff for industries like electrical plumbing manufacturing or more, Zorro's got it from brands you know and trust. And Zorro.com offers amazing customer service from real people based in the U.S. Visit ZORO.com slash NFL in all lowercase letters to sign up for Z-Mail and get 15% off your first order. This is the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing great, great Sunday of football.

Great Sunday night game, amazing performances, Lamar Jackson. But I want to unpack first, the announcement we made this morning that you discovered at age 32 that you can scroll down using the trackpad on your laptop. Tell me how you discovered this. Tell me how you had not discovered it before recently. Well, I was having a discussion about how my new laptop, I got a new MacBook, and I was trying to use the arrows to scroll down. like I typically do within Chrome, and it just wasn't working. And it was brought up that, you know, you can just scroll with the trackpad. Like, that's how you're supposed to do it.

And I just was unaware of that. I've always just used the arrows to go up and down. And people were legitimately horrified by this when I brought it up to them, which I guess is fair. When I say that I'm terrible with technology, you know, we do those ads for Sonos or whatever, and I say that it's amazing that I can use it because I'm terrible with technology. That's not a line. It really is true. I don't know how to use my phone.

There was a point where I would, when I was trying to turn things up and down within my phone, I would go into the settings to turn them up and down, not realizing that you could just flip up on the screen and then turn them up and down. I'm really, really terrible at it. It's something where I should just take a tutorial with everything I ever buy, like I'm a 55-year-old person. But I don't because I don't want to treat myself like that, even though I should. I didn't see your tweet initially until someone tagged me in it.

to inform me that between your admission and me going to the Logan Paul KSI fight, that it was just a tough look for our podcast this weekend. So what was your thinking there? Were you just curious? We were credentialed. So we had three ringer people went. Alyssa, who wrote a very good piece. I saw that.

It was great. Last week, we can read now in the ringer that ran on Friday. Pat Maldownie, who was our head of social media, and then myself. I wanted to go because there were two undercard fighters who were world class, Billy Joe Saunders and Devin Haney. That's sort of the weird thing about this event is they put really good boxers on before the YouTubers. And then there was a celebrity part of it.

Give people in the door. Well, no, I would get people like me who would just, I mean, they would have got 14,000 people in the arena just to watch the YouTubers, right? Oh, yeah, that's fair. I wanted to go see the actual boxers. But then the celebrity part of it was so funny. You had like Ed Shearin was there. Rick Ross was there.

Was Khalifa, French Montana. these guys. Israel Adasani, I think, bought a ticket. He's the UFC middleweight champion. He was just behind me. It seemed to not be on some sort of slow to row. I think he just wanted to see the YouTubers fight. And then, so we got in that Pat and I, you can go in the tunnel where the fighters come out. And so we go back there and we see Justin Bieber go into the locker rooms. And then they come out. Logan Paul and Bieber come out. And you can just follow them out. So we followed them out a little bit through the tunnel and it ended up just ringwalking with them. I was probably like three or four people behind Justin Bieber and kind of like a media throng.

Then they go to the ring. And then I come back. And as I'm coming back, KSI is coming out. The problem is a couple things. Number one, like everybody else is left because they left with Bieber and Logan Paul. And security is pushing me forward. So I just end up like in the middle of KSI's crew and I can't go back to the tunnel. So I end up just just ring walking with KSI.

And halfway through, I'm like, I'm in it. Like the cut man was behind me. Like, he had all the equipment. And I was like, I'm just in KSI's crew now walking out. And so I just decided to... You're in the out of it. Instead of trying to get out of it, I just immediately just tried to look hard as hell. And I don't think it worked.

But I, for thankfully, I was not on television in this conundrum. I was only, you know, it got halfway in and I was able to sort of sneak out. Pat Mulanini took great video of me walking out with Bieber and Logan Paul. Put them on Instagram. But it was, I got stuck in a tunnel with a bunch of celebrities. and it was not anything but stressful. If I had told you 10 years ago that one day you were going to end up walking to the ring with some YouTubers about to fight each other in a packed house in Los Angeles,

what would you have said? I said that sounds about right. Yeah, that's right. My life has definitely headed that direction. So let's talk about football. Let's do it. So we're going to start the show off today by talking about how the playoff base is kind of getting a little bit more muddled and it's expand.

And I think that that happened in both conferences. today. I mean, you think about a team like the Raiders winning on Thursday. The Titans are suddenly relevant here. The bills are now kind of reeling and pretty much anybody's game in the AFC wildcard. What's going to happen in the AFC West with the Chiefs? The NFC now with the Cowboys losing, it seems like the NFC East is completely up for grabs. So all of those results today, or just this weekend in general, which one jumped out to you the most as, okay, now, you know, this is getting a lot more interesting. Yeah, I mean, I would say Tennessee winning a game like that. I don't think Mahomes was 100%. And I think that was a weird game. He went on a blocked kick, all this stuff.

But Tanna Hill's performance was really interesting to me. And I think that there's kind of a lot to unpack there. I'm looking at the 538 playoff percentages right now. And I'm really intrigued by a lot of them. You know, Seattle's at 64%. Pittsburgh is a 56%. Buffalo, 55%. Oakland, 45%. Oakland, 40% indie 32%. And you just start to think about all of the teams that we thought were either runaway locks

for the playoffs or totally out of it. And there's kind of a growing middle here where everyone's bunched up. And that's what I find interesting about this week. Oakland all of a sudden is a half game out in the division. I don't think Oakland's going to win that division, but the question needs to be asked.

There's a lot of that happening in the NFL, a lot of it happening after Sunday. A team like Cleveland is now three and six, but they just took Buffalo to six and three with an unfavorable schedule headed the next few weeks. And I just think that there are a lot more questions to answer to about the NFL after this week. Even if Oakland doesn't win that division, though, now with Indy kind of losing a couple of games here and with the bills kind of struggling, I mean, the Raiders could absolutely still

win the wild card. That's the thing, is that that second tier in the AFC now is so muddled and so kind of murky that even if Oakland doesn't end up catching Kansas City, which I think over the course of the second half of the season, the Chiefs are still going to be the best team in that division. They clearly have issues. Beyond Mahomes, looking a little bit rusty today, which he did in stretches.

They still moved the ball well. Their offensive line is dinged up. You know, Schwartz missed time, then their backup right tackle got hurt. They still don't have their starting left tackle. And the problem to me with that team today is just the amount of huge runs Derek Henry is able to rip off in the second half with absolutely no resistance whatsoever.

I think the offense will be fine with the chiefs, but I think the defense is becoming a problem. And even if we can say, yeah, they'll win the division. They'll definitely still make the playoffs. That's not the type of team we considered the chiefs to be coming into the season. They were supposed to be one of the class teams in the league. It wasn't a sneak into the playoffs and see what happens type of team. It was a fight for home field advantage type of team. And they're just not that anymore.

Yeah, I agree with you. And I think that the home field advantage thing is important. Obviously, New England goes into Kansas City and wins an overtime last year in January. And I think that that game weighs on a lot of people. But I think that they thought that they could get that again and they could replay that game. They're not going to get home field advantage. That debate is over. Honey Badger is yelling at Ryan Clark on Twitter for criticizing his defense.

Like, this is a weird time for the chiefs right now. I saw Andy Reid take responsibility for the loss in the press conference just saw in Sports Center a couple minutes ago. I don't know. I mean, I just think at this point, the defense hasn't taken the step that we thought they could with their talent. We always knew, look, in Steve Spagnolo is not an elite defensive coordinator, but we thought all I had to do is be better than Bob Sutton. They've improved in areas, but then they have a weird game like today. I just think that I'm not ready to sound any alarm bell on the sheafs.

These things happen, especially with Patrick Mahomes. I think that what's interesting to me is when you start thinking about the quote-unquote elite teams in the NFL, the teams we thought, which has died in the wool, you know, 13, 14 win teams. That's changing a lot. I'm surprised right now. Green Bay now has a higher percentage chance to get the buy than New Orleans after that weird game against Falcons today. Yeah.

And that's, you should throw the Saints in there too. I didn't mention that at the top. And I think for the past three weeks, four weeks, I've spent so much time saying, well, the Packers, they're not in the class with the Niners and the Saints. Well, statistically, they are now because the Saints laid a nag on Sunday and the Packers had a nice win against a pretty good Pan. team. So I just think that a lot of the realities we thought maybe even coming into this week are slowly starting to undo themselves. And I'm, I'm less sure of what the NFL is this week than

last week. It's funny that the Packers are now kind of had the inside track to get the buy. Because I came away from today, and especially over the past couple weeks, not necessarily being blown away by the Packers. I mean, you're watching that game today. It's a decent win over Carolina. But I didn't watch that Packers team and think, God, that's an elite team right there. So it really does feel like that group is dwindling. Like you said, I mean, I don't know who those teams would even be right now. We're a week away or a week removed from the Ravens beating the Patriots. The Saints just got beat up by the Falcons today.

Again, some of these are going to be blips. But I do feel like things have just gotten so much more confusing over the last couple weeks based on what we thought we knew maybe six, seven weeks into the season. And sometimes there's just weird games. I mean, in Kansas City game today, Mitchell Schwartz comes out of the game. He'd played 7,800 consecutive snaps. and then his replacement gets hurt after Mitchell Schwartz comes out. On the next play.

On the next play, right, exactly. And so, I mean, these are just games where you kind of throw your hands up and say, you know what? Sometimes weird things happen. Again, I'm not ready to sound the alarm on that. With the Saints, I mean, I don't even know how you explain that. That was just bizarre. The Falcons have just become a competent team overnight. Well, the problem with the Saints is that one of the things you couldn't see coming.

Every once in a while, Matt Ryan is going to have one of those games, right? Their offense is going to play well. Julio's going to make a play. That stuff is going to happen. They have talent on that side of the ball. For their pass rush to have as much effect as they did on that game, and for Drew Brees to be kind of running for his life as much as he seemed to be, that was the surprising part of that game.

That's why you kind of say, you know, against a division team, it's just sometimes these things happen. Breeze's first game back, you're going to get jumped on. Every once in a while, these things happen. So I'm not really worried about the Saints, but when we're talking about home field advantage, or we're talking about seating every win and loss matters. Yeah, Von McClure tweeted this out.

I love this nugget. The Falcons are the fourth team in history to be on at least a six-game losing streak and beat a team on at least a six-game winning streak. The others are the 2001 bangles over the Steelers, the 1973 Colts over the Dolphins, the 1948 Boston Yanks over the Eagles. That was just a classic letdown game for the Eagles in 1948.

Just a clutch. You don't, listen, the Boston Yanks, when a wounded Boston Yanks team is the most dangerous type of Boston Yanks team. All right. And to lose. Let's get to stock up and stock down. We're going to talk about some of these teams a little bit more specifically here as we keep going through the show. Let's start with Lamar Jackson. And obviously, we talked about him a ton on last week's show.

But I want to talk about it more from the MVP race side of it. Because I think after today, you know, Russell Wilson obviously plays a 49er. today. He's had an incredible year. But right now, I think that if Russell Wilson slips even a little bit, Lamar Jackson's candidacy has become very real. I mean, he was absolutely incredible

today. I know it was the Bengals, whatever, but when he keeps playing these perfect games, I'm not sure it matters who he's playing against. I mean, what were his final numbers? I think he threw almost as many touchdowns as he had incomplete passes again today. Yeah, so there's a couple of just, so he was 15

for 17 was the actual staff. There you go. touchdowns. Seth Walter had this. Lamar Jackson's total QBR today was the highest for any game, any quarterback this season. 99.3, right?

99.7. Do you know who number 2 is? Excuse me. You know what number 2 is? Oh. It's Lamar Jackson. There you go. So we see run.

We've seen runs like the incredible run he had today, the spin move. We've seen that every couple of years. We've seen it every couple of years, right? Like there's just a guy who's that good of a runner who can do that. What we haven't seen is that kind of run

when the quarterback has a perfect passer rate and he's 15 for 17. And he has four total touchdowns. He's a phenomenon. I don't know how else to say this. This is awesome. And, you know, I think the MVP discussion you're having a shaded a little bit.

Russell Wilson doesn't play till Monday. Deshawn Watson is off this week. Yep. it's a little bit different but he's in that race man he is in the thick of it and I think that it's would you say

it's a it's what two horses three horses how many I would say I would put Lamar Jackson and Russell Wilson at the tippy top right now after Sunday would you put Deshawn Watson in that group I put Deshawn and Dak in a slight

period in a slight class under that I know the Cowboys are having won much But Dak Prescott was incredible again today. I mean, he keeps playing amazing. So I would say those are the four I would throw out there. I know the Cowboys record isn't in line with those other teams, but just in terms of play right now, those are the four, I would say.

And I think that Lamar and Russell Wilson are in a class above the other two. Yeah. I mean, I just, what we're seeing from him is the most exciting football I've seen, I've ever seen in my lifetime. Just the stuff they're doing. They're clearly having so much fun right now. I mean, pitching the ball to Robert Griffin. They're running option plays.

Every time they had three Heisman winners. They're just flexing. They had three Heisman winners in the backfield just because they, I don't know, it seemed funny. And they called it the Heisman package. That's just, you know, why not? That was amazing. Yeah, it was great. And every time they run a play action pass and I see Mark Andrews running up the seam, I just get like excited.

It's just fun. The style of play they have right now is just truly enjoyable. He is appointment television. That touchdown run is one of the coolest plays I've seen in a really long time. I mean, not only the bursts, but the spin to finish it off, it's like, good God, man. I mean, these guys come around like once every decade. You know, Cam maybe could have done something like that, but Cam was never that style of runner, if it makes sense. He was always, he was so graceful, but there wasn't that, I don't know, I'm not sure what the adjective is.

There wasn't that weird twitchiness to him. Michael Vic was like this, clearly. No, but Vic is the one. And I think that also, I think Kaepernick on some of those runs, in 2013. I mean, those were some pretty graceful quick runs. Yeah.

Even he was one of those things where he just ate up open grass in this impressive way. When he got going, when he got going, man, there was, that's what I'm saying. For him, it was like a head of steam some.

With him, it was like a head of steam thing. Like when he was just like, as soon as there would be any sort of opening, he was just gone. The, the, the Jackson thing,

though, is just about these weird cuts. He makes an open field. It just, I don't know, there's something slightly different. about it to me. I can't really put my finger on it. Yeah. I mean, this is

great football and I'm intrigued to see how this develops the season goes on. And one of the things that excites me when you see the Heisman package or whatever is that this is not going to be a one idea offense. This is going to be constant innovation. It's going to be John Harbaugh, Greg Roman, the running bass coach, Matt Weissman.

These guys are going to understand how to keep developing this offense throughout the year. And that's why everybody, listen, I'm not saying, they're going to beat the Patriots in Foxborough or whatever. I'm not there yet. But what I will say is everyone says, well, Belichick will have a different game plan for him,

a second game, you know, in January. Well, guess what? Lamar Jackson has a different game plan too. This is not, this offense is going to evolve, and that's kind of what you see. And I think that there's a lot of people, you know, the first stat I said about, you know,

the QBR being, you know, number one is Lamar Jackson against a Bengals. Number two is Lamar Jackson against the Dolph. I think a lot of people are going to point out that there's some schedule issues there. But listen, if everyone could do this against the Bengals and the dolphins, they would. The Dolphins just beat the Colts. You know, I mean, this is not. Lamar Jackson is a special, special player regardless of, you know, whether or not it was against the Bengals or whatever.

So I'm super excited about watching, you know, half a season more of Lamar Jackson. I think that there will be a duel for the MVP race. I think that, you know, look, you go back. there's no more like freezing cold take style discussions and articles than looking at sort of the MVP race of week 10, week 11, that kind of stuff. I mean, it's usually like, oh, when I was looking at the Cam Newton stuff from 2015, like week 12, there were tons of articles being like Cam Newton's not in the MVP discussion

yet. And he just took off in December and ran away with the award, right? It was weirdly halfway through the season, it was Andy Dalton. And then about 10 games in, it was Tom Brady. Yeah, and then it was like, oh, wait, Cam Newton is having historic season, we should vote for him. So what I'm saying is that this is a second half award, but right now I would put Wilson and Jackson at the very top. Craig, our producer Craig asked a really interesting question in our Slack today. We were planning the show.

He said, if Baker Mayfield was on the Ravens, how good would Baker Mayfield be? Do you think that this Ravens coaching staff would be able to succeed with pretty much any talent given to them? Or do you think it's kind of a perfect marriage between what they do well and the course? quarterback they have right now. Isn't there kind of a butterfly effect thing where they promoted, well, they know, they promoted Greg Roman. Exactly. Because of his experience with designing innovative running games. So I don't think, I think they would have gone in a different direction. I tend to agree with you. I think that's the answer. I just think it's an interesting thought experiment. Yeah. I don't know. I think that's like 20 minutes on a Thursday episode in the future.

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Ringer NFL, R-I-N-G-E-R-N-F-L. ZipRecruiter.com slash ringer NFL. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. All right, let's get to our next stock up here. The Steelers defense, man. I mean, we kept talking about Mika Fitzpatrick every week. He had another touchdown today, and he had a fumble recovery,

an interception to steal the game. Joe Hayden was incredible today. This team is, I don't know how good the offense can possibly be with Mason Rudolph in there. But I think this defense is good enough to give anybody problems right now. They're playing fantastic. Yep.

I mean, they're five and four right now. They're one of these teams in the great middle where we wrote them off. They now have a 56% chance to make the playoffs, which would... It's wild. That would sound ridiculous four weeks ago. Ridiculous.

When they had their third string quarterback, they were doing what we thought was a panic trade, what everybody thought was a panic trade. And now this guy, Mike Fitzpatrick, is a force, 34 tackles, five interceptions, two defensive touchdowns. I just,

he is a defensive player of the year candidate at this point. Yeah, I mean, at a certain point, you can't ignore the plays. I mean, I know that there are a lot of tips and things like that,

but the guys just constantly are on the ball. I mean, that should deserve some credit. And last week's pick six was not like that. I mean, he's just making an incredible play.

They just have so many guys on that team right now that are doing things. I mean, Hayden was constantly around the ball today. Their defensive line controls the game. Watt almost sealed it with the strip sack. Hardgrave forced that fumble to lead to the Fitzpatrick touchdown. I mean, every single guy on this team seems to be

getting into the mix right now. And that's how you have defenses that can control a game. That's how you have defenses that can swing a game. And it seems like that is where they are. I mean, I'm not sure right now at this moment how many defenses are playing that much better. I think San Francisco and New England have been better all season. But, you know, we've talked a lot about how schedule has played into that. The Steelers doesn't seem to matter. who they're playing right now, they've been able to slow people down. Yeah. I mean, four takeaways today. They're getting turnovers at a historic rate for them in their franchise's history.

I'm hugely impressed with the way Mike Tom, when as coach's team, with the way this defense has come together. I think there's probably a pretty good what if on what if Ben Rothesburg were healthy this year because there's a lot of good players in that defense. And I just think the offense is, you know, It's certainly not where it needs to be, but it's enough to win, you know, nine, ten games and be in the hunt there. So this is a really, really intriguing second half team for me. I wonder how good that offense could have been with Robesberger.

Because I do think that I've obviously the quarterback play as a concern, but they're not as good everywhere else as they have been. So it's hard to say. On offense. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. It's impossible to say how good or bad they would have been. But I would be curious to see this group with him.

because the defense has been as good as it's been in a long time. Right. Yeah, no, I think, but I do you think that they make the playoffs. So let's look at the standings right now, okay? So if we're looking at it right now, the bills are six and three and do not look very good. Tough schedule. They're basically the anti-raiders right now. Raiders have a very favorable schedule coming up.

So I'd say right now if I had to put money on it, I don't know, man. they have the tiebreaker against the Colts, which is huge. So that's going to be big for them. I mean, with the Colts, the fact that they lost that game last week and then they had to deal with Hoyer today and they lost to Miami. That's brutal. I mean, that's just one of those things. You bring your third string quarterback in. It's hard to beat anybody.

Here's what the Bills have. Bills have a red hot dolphins team, two-game winning streak. That's a joke, by the way. They'll beat the dolphins. Broncos, whatever. Then here's the hard stuff. Are you so sure that Bills are going to beat the dolphins right now? Yeah, I think they'll be.

the dolphins. There's a possibility they won't, but I'm just saying, I'm not like, I'm not going to bet my car on it, but like, I think they'll win. So they go, dolphins, Broncos. So that could be two wins. But then it goes, Cowboys, Ravens, Steelers. They do play the Steelers in December 15th. And that'll answer a lot of questions and the Patriots. Yeah, it's a Bruce. That's tough. That's a tough four-game stretch from the week after Thanksgiving until Christmas, basically. And then they finish up with the Jets, who, I mean, Lord knows what shape they'll be in by week 17. But, hey, the red hot jets, man.

Show some respect. Exactly. And so I think that the, the AFC wildcard race is really interesting to me. The Raiders have the jets, chiefs. I mean, listen, it's not that easy. I mean, it's Bengals, Jets. I understand that.

But then you have Chiefs, Titans, Jaguars, Chargers. I mean, that's, none of those teams are all that bad. I think the Chargers have a pretty uphill battle at this point. The Chargers, I mean, I think the Chargers can beat the Raiders. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Chiefs are good. The Bengals and the Jets are not. Within that three-game stretch there of Titans,

Jaguars, Chargers, it's not like they're playing, you know, you know, Division 1, AA teams here. Like, they could lose to any of those teams, including the Ryan Tannahill led Tennessee Titans. If I, I think that the Raiders are probably going to make it at this point, based on their schedule. For me, the team that would knock off the Steelers would probably be

either the Colts or the bills. And we talked about how tough the bill schedule is. The Colts have a pretty tough schedule too. Dude, the Colts might stink with Brian Hoyer. Well, how long is, like, permanently stink? How long is we set out? We don't know. We don't know.

He got the quote, most positive news possible. Yeah. I mean, if he comes back next week, we'll see about that. We see it's just how much of a downgrade Brian Hoyer is from Jacobi percent. But the Colts have the Jags, the Texans, the Titans, the Bucks who, are at least a little bit feisty, the Saints, the Panthers, and the Jaguars. That's not easy. That's a pretty tough road compared to what, you know, even the Steelers have.

I mean, the Steelers get the Cardinals, they get the Jets. They could lose to the Cardinals, theoretically, I guess, but they also have the Bengals. So I don't know. I think that they definitely, they're in the conversation. I mean, it's clearly, they're clearly in a better spot than they were two weeks ago. I'll say that much. It's like we talked about the top of the show, though. It's way too muddled for me to, like, be picking anyone at this point.

The pool is just a lot bigger than that. it was. All right, next stock up. All right. Let's talk about a non-NFL story that happened this week, sort of, tangentially related. Joe will be an NFL story. It will be an NFL story. I wrote about this on Friday, and I talked

about just the rise that Joe Burrow has had up the draft and kind of how it hasn't happened in modern NFL draft history. Guys that have done this from one year to the other, for the most part, have been juniors to seniors or one-year starters. It's never happened where a guy who was a junior and

had some sort of consensus on him. It was a bad consensus coming into his senior season has shot up like this. Joe Burrow was almost perfect on Saturday against Alabama. He was unbelievable. It's one of the better college games I can remember a quarterback playing. And now the Bengals have, believe, a two-game lead in the race to the bottom here. So we're really going to have to start having this conversation about Burrow, Tua, and how this quarterback class fits into all these tanking teams.

Because right now, the Bengals are probably. going to have the number one pick and they're going to have their choice of quarterback. Yep. Joe Burroughs from Ohio. Yep. That's worth noting. I think he is probably a pretty easy choice if the Bengals like him in more than two for number one. I think that that's, I think they're going to have to get quarterback.

That's why you look at Ryan Finley and bench to Andy Dalton on the day of the trade deadline and not trade Andy Dalton. You want to see all of this, right? And so I think that, yeah, it's an easy. pick as long as they don't go crazy and start winning games. I think what's interesting is how that quarterback class shakes out. Does Chase Young go second overall? You know, there's, there's some real, I'm looking at a CBS mock draft here, and it doesn't really have a, has Tua going eighth to the bucks. And I think that there's a, you know, there's a deep draft outside of the quarterbacks as well. I think it's interesting. I am alarmed that there's a cornerback named Lamar Jackson. I did not know this.

This is going to be a problem. He has to change his name. He has to change his name, right? It's like a sag thing. Like, he has to change his name or else he's going to be the other Lamar Jackson the entire time. It's going to be like a Michael B. Jordan situation. He's got to sort that out. I don't know.

I don't know. I'm going to look into this. But so how do you see, does it, is it kind of a typical quarterback draft where they all get pushed up the board and they go one, three, five, six or something? Or will we see Joe Burrow and then some separation? how do you think teams will start trading up for some of these guys? Where do you see that going? I tend to say yes, because I always lean that way. I usually will bet on the fact that that's going to happen.

What happens is like owners start being like, we need a quarterback. That's exactly right. And then everyone starts trading for the second overall pick. Yes, that's exactly right. And I think there are going to be enough teams that are desperate this offseason where we may see some of that. It depends on how some of these teams see quarterbacks. The conversations I was having with people last week about Burrow,

we kind of got into the Tua stuff as well. And people are still a little bit skeptical about just how great these guys are. And if they really are special talents. And I think all of these guys are, when you have a Ryan Finley, you know, you have to see what he has. But even if he's not even close to being the guy, then you have to go with a player like bro or two. I mean, the bar that Ryan Finley has to clear is so high. And I kind of feel that way about Kyle Allen as well, if the Panthers plan on moving on from camp. So I think those guys are, you know, obviously their potential franchise quarterbacks.

I'm not sure that they're the game-changing type talents that they may be considered to be by other people. Based on some of the conversations I had last week. That's what I'll say. Sure. So I think that quarterbacks always become overrated, even if they're, you know, future Hall of Famers. Like everyone just assumes there's a reason that when five quarterbacks went two years ago, you know, guys like Josh Rosen are going 10th overall. And obviously that didn't work out. but they always elite quarterbacks

or quote unquote elite quarterbacks are always overdrafted. When conventional wisdom starts to go, those guys do not drop ever. When was the last time a good quarterback or even a consensus, sort of league-wide good quarterback dropped that significantly?

I'd say Teddy Bridgewater. Teddy Bridgewater is a very good example. That was five years ago? 2014. 13. 13. Okay. No, no.

13 was the disaster. quarterback year. Oh, that's the E.J. Manuel year. So, yes, 2014. Excuse me. Yeah. So that's a great one. Blake Bordels goes third overall. I mean, like, listen. Derek Car was a good car draft as well. We're well, we're on record as saying teams don't know how to evaluate quarterbacks. They're really bad at it. Honestly, you know what the other example is Lamar Jackson? Well, no. I mean, that's what I was, that's what I was getting to is like there were, there were five quarterbacks taken in the first round. And then they let Lamar Jackson slip to 30 second and he might end up being the best one. And I think only a miraculous

curious turnaround from Baker Mayfield would at this point prevent Lamar Jackson from being the most valuable quarterback of that first round. Do you agree with that? Probably. I still have a lot of Baker Mayfield faith. Oh, no, no, no, no. So I think he can still be really good quarterback. That's why I said that. Do you think there's any, like, you know, weird case for like some weird Sam Darnold Renaissance in three years? Maybe. I think it's hard to say. We've seen how much coaches matter with that position. And I think that Adam Gase is an unmitigated disaster. So, I still think that Sam Donald could be okay. I feel like Lamar Jackson definitely has a huge lead in this race,

but I am not ready to give up on a guy like Sam Donald quite yet. I think Josh Rosen, it's probably over, unfortunate, of no fault of his own, really. Hey, I have one more stock out. Go for it, buddy. The Chicago Bear is signing Ryan Tannahill to a three-year deal worth $55 million. I mean, he's clearly going to be in this conversation now. he's playing well enough to warrant consideration for whoever the team that need a creative solution next offseason what's up what number is ryan tannale for the bears next year 17 right we don't have a 17 oh anthony miller so he's got to have to pick a different one uh i don't know seven maybe we'll address that on thursday

let me i'll have to think about it a little bit all right just he's just going to fit in so well there with two-thirds of guys experiencing noticeable hair loss by h 35 most guys assume losing their hair is inevitable as they age. Some don't care, some shave their head, or some embrace hats. What they don't know is that there are FDA-approved medications designed to stop hair loss and even regrow hair. That's why we're excited to partner with our sponsor, Roman. Roman makes it easy to get safe FDA-approved hair loss treatment, all from your phone or computer. And when you go to get roman.com slash ringer NFL, your online visit is free. consult with the U.S. licensed physician through their secure online platform.

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Stockdown. Let's start off with the Dallas Cowboys, who just a really frustrating life. boss today. And it really speaks to a lot of the issues they've had this season where their quarterback is playing incredible football and they still find ways to lose. And today it was just a weird commitment to the running game in ways that didn't really make sense to me, especially late. I mean, that third down call when your quarterback is literally engulfed in flames, I just don't really understand it. So let's talk about play calling here. John Oning had this. on first down, the Cowboys passed 14 times for 108 yards, 8.3 yards per attempt.

Not bad. They ran 16 times on first down. Remember, their earlier number was 14, so they ran more than they passed on first down. They got 2.4 yards per carry. I don't think they should have done that. It's the same story against the Jets. It's the same old thing. When they do this, it just makes no sense of whatsoever.

Your quarterback is playing as well as anybody in the league right now. he was, God, he was so good tonight. I'm just so many throws where it was like, God, damn. It really makes you sit up in your chair. And when you're doing things that actively harm your team when your quarterback is playing that well, it's really frustrating to watch. Yeah. And we debated last week whether or not how much DAC could overcome that with his current talent level. I'm on record as saying in a couple of years, I think that he will be one of the best quarterbacks.

I think he'll be an elite quarterback and maybe two, three years when he gets a better system around him and everything develops a little bit better. I like the system, by the way. I think the system is fine. I think the distribution is wrong. Well, I guess we're conflating things here.

Like, whatever's happening is not working. I don't know if we're going to call that the system or the distribution or whatever it is, but tonight was really weird. And I think Doc Prescott played really well, but I don't think Jason Garrett is going to maximize Doc Prescott's skill set ever. I think this is a Jason Garrett problem.

I really do. Right. Well, that's what I'm talking. We're in total agreement on that. I just feel like they're coming into these games with a certain mindset about how they want their offense to run and that mindset doesn't line up with the talent they have right now because their quarterback is the best player on their offense.

I mean, he's playing so well that he should be everything about your offense. It doesn't matter how much you paid Ezekieli this offseason. That's done. That contract has been handed out. You can't get that money back. There's no reason to try to maximize that deal anymore. You should be doing everything you can to win games and score points. And right now, that includes using Dak Prescott in every way possible.

NFL Next Gen stats has the expected completion percentage thing. You've talked about that, right? Yep. So they've talked about how good Doc Prescott was. and he was above 6% plus 6% on his attempts above completion and then he had five of his 10 completions this year tonight and three of them were to Mara Cooper, okay? I don't think there's anything that explains,

leaving aside this particular statistic, I don't think there's anything that explains that Dak Prescott 2019 experience more than him defying expectations of completions. Like he is succeeding where maybe he shouldn't. What he's throwing to Amari Cooper, and Amarer Cooper is making these really great plays. I think he's, you know, he's just, he, Doc Prescott's a really good quarterback.

And at some point, Jason Garrett needs to either just stop being Jason Garrett or Jerry Jones, you know, to find somebody who's not Jason Garrett. That's, I tend to fall on the second side of that. By the way, do you know who leads the league in a difference in completion percentage and expected completion percentage? Is it someone who started every game? It is not someone who started every game. Okay.

Is it Ryan Tannehill? It is Future Bears. quarterback Ryan Tamahill. Yeah. I just guessed on that one. It just seemed like he was, he was throwing some completions that didn't seem expected. I don't even,

I don't even know what that stat means. I just think it sounds funny. It's about route depth, target depth, and receiver separation. So it's how much, what percentage of your passes you should complete based on those factors

and what percentage you are completing. Ryan Pace is explaining this to a McCasky somewhere right now. It's a fun stat. I mean, It really is just about how much better your, how much better, how much worse you're playing than your circumstances would dictate. I mean, that's a crude way to put it. But that's how I think about it.

And I think it's really interesting in that way. All right. Let's get to our next stock down here. Let's talk about the state of tanking. We talked about it a little bit in regard to the Bengals, but the Bengals are just blowing these teams away, man. I tweeted about it today. I think that the only reason you should ever fire a head coach after one season is if that guy clearly just does not align with your organizational vision. and Brian Flores is too good to be the Dolphins head coach.

He's just coached too well. I mean, he just can't keep doing this. I think that I talked about this earlier, but I think that the dolphins made a massive mistake not hiring Zach Taylor. Or Adam Gase, just keeping him.

That was the, oh my God, could you imagine Adam Gase? Could you imagine Adam Gase with that Dolphins team? Oh, it would be great. They might, they would be so bad at the league

would like launch investigation that that kind of team adam gates with this dolphins roster would get everybody to change the rules on draft picks what's the uh what's the NBA rule the stepion rule oh they know you can't trade you can't trade first round picks and consecutive season this is the opposite of that you can't trade all of your players because you hate them um a do you know who ran the bengal scout team to simulate lamar jackson this week andy dalton baby andy Dalton. God, what a terrible moment that is. When you're a decade-long starter and you have to become the scout team quarterback for a

winless team. For Lamar Jackson. Oh, are you saying Andy Dalton doesn't quite have the athleticism that Lamar Jackson does? When Miami played Nebraska and played Eric Crouch, they didn't have anybody as fast as as quarterback. So they had Roscoe Parish play quarterback for a week. It was legendary stories about good Roscoe Parish. Well, is it running the scout team?

So there you go. Are you not saying that's what happened in? Cincinnati. I'm saying that Andy Dalton looked exactly like that. I don't really know what there is to say about it. I mean, at this point, it seems like the Bengals are going to do this. And I'm not really sure how it's going to shake out after that. And we discussed this a little bit, I think, on Thursday's show. But I know that it doesn't seem like there's a huge deal between having the first pick and the third pick, right? It's, you're going to be up there. You're probably going to be in range of draft to quarterback, everything else.

But not sitting in the catbird seat of the draft and not being able to control the draft is a huge thing. And now it feels like the Bengals are absolutely going to be able to control this draft. Well, the difference between two and three or four or five gets huge when there's a lot of quarterbacks available because teams get desperate. We saw that the Niners were able to pick up some cheap picks just because the Bears got scared and moved from three to two. Now, the Niners didn't even make that good of a pick at three, but they, you know, they got some nice little draft capital out of the deal.

So one pick can be the difference between getting a really good second or third round pick and not. I also think it's being able to kind of choose your destiny is important when you already have a quarterback or when you don't want one. Think about what the Colts were able to do a couple years ago in the darnal draft and how it was really able to, they restocked their roster because of it. So let's say if you're Miami and you don't like either of these guys, I assume they will draft a quarterback just for argument's sake, though. You don't. And you have the number one pick. what can you get for it? I'm sure you can get just a king's ransom

as again, you try to restock your roster. So just not being able to control how this goes is a blow for Miami when they were doing everything in their power to try to get that number one pick. And it's still in play. But I really don't think the Bengals are going to win two games for the rest of the year. I agree.

I mean, their best hope is that they just lose out and there's some schedule stuff and they get, you know, listen, they play the Jets again. So there's always the chance that the Jets, will beat them. It's a huge win for the Jets today when it comes to the dolphins.

That's a big, big game. That's a big, big game. And then listen, they play the Bengals. They play the Bengals. So if the Bengals sneak up on somebody here these next couple weeks, the dolphins might control their own destiny

as far as tanking. And let's not forget the one in eight Washington Redskins, which I absolutely did. Also, the Giants are two and eight right now. This is incredible. I'm just so excited. The race to the bottom has never been more interesting.

They're not going to trade out of the pick because Dave Gettleman hates analytics. and they're just going to take a tackle. You love to see it. Also, the Falcons today. I mean, if the Falcons lose today and they're sitting in one win, they're starting to get into this conversation. Man, team just being too good all over the place.

Tough season. Tough season to tank. I'll say that. I'll say that. Yeah. I mean, it's never been more competitive down there, which is unfortunate when everyone's trying to do it. All right, last stock down.

I don't really know what to say right now about the state of the Rams offense. I know we talked about how good the Steelers defense has been and everything else. But I mean, this group, considering where they were a year ago, it's just hard to believe how bad things have gotten for them. So I'm not saying that the Jared Goff contract is exactly like the John Wall contract and that it was regrettable before it even kicked in. But what I am saying is that I'm going to keep bringing it up that it sounds like it. I don't blame me, man. I mean, that's a lot of money for a guy who's now,

and I saw this, a lot of people talk about this, but essentially last November was when Jared Goff really started to decline a little bit. We have 16 games where Chase Stewart called him, quote, high volume Mark Sanchez. Jesus Christ. I don't know if that's true.

I think Jared Goff is probably better than Mark Sanchez, and I think he's actually probably better than he has, than in some of his lows. I think that he'll end up being fine. I think he'll end up being fine. What I don't think he'll end up being is someone who's worth the most guaranteed money in history.

I don't think he's going to be, he's never going to rise above the expectations placed on him and his surroundings. I think there's a lot of people who could be Jared Gough right now. And the thing I always said was that the Rams just don't want to find out

because look, they got to a Super Bowl with Jared Gough, you know, running this system and being McVeigh's guy. Everybody wants to be Sean McVeigh's quarterback and he gets to live the dream. Like everything worked out for everybody, right? But at some point, it looks like this just might not work. I don't know. I mean, listen, the Rams are still a good team. They could make the playoffs. But do you think that quarterbacking for them is a liability? I don't think quarterbacking for them is a liability as much as their offensive system seems to be a little bit broken. And that's not about Sean McVeigh or Jared Gough. I think it's just about

everything. Their offensive line has been awful this year. They were completely outmaned today. I know they're a little bit banged up on the interior. Alan got hurt, whatever. But it's been a problem the entire season. So with the golf contract, I've always thought that that was a bet on what they'd seen with the McVeigh machine and Jared Gough in it. Now, the first aspect of that is in question. What does the McVeigh machine look like now? What is that, no matter who the quarterback is. And I think that there are questions about how good that offense can be when the pieces are a little bit worse.

The offensive line has been a little bit worse. And we've seen it. Teams are able to, they've been able to prepare for it. Teams have answers for it. So that really strong, aggressive bet on that partnership, I think is why they signed that contract. And I think the partnership is what has come into question. Listen, no one's had a, are we sure he's good season quite like Baker Mayfield?

I mean, that's a separate category right now. But I think Paker Mayfield is a good quarterback and will be a good quarterback. He's just had a nightmare of a season. But if you've got 11 touchdowns and nine interceptions on the season as Jared Gough does, that's a problem. Like, something is wrong. And I don't know what it is. I think you're right. I think everything's a little bit off.

Again, I think Jared Gough can recover from this. I think the Rams, if the roster, you know, is what it was like last year and is that deep. they have talent everywhere, I do think that they can win a lot of games. I'm just not seeing the Rams that I've grown accustomed to at this point. And I think this is why the J-1 Ramsey trade is such a risk. Because you make this move with the understanding that you're a certain kind of team. And when it's proven out that you're not that kind of team and now you gave up two first-round picks, you kind of sit there and think, what are we?

Now, what is this team moving forward? What are we in 2020, 2020, 2021? And that's the question we ask as soon as they made the trade. And I think three weeks later, it's even more important to be asking it because I just don't know the answer right now. Okay. So let's talk with their schedule real quick. They beat the Saints. Nice win.

They beat the Saints when Breeze got hurt. That's, you know, it's kind of a weird one. But they did go, I mean, the Saints were not the sort of Teddy Bridgewater well machine that they became. That's what I'm saying. He's injury. Right. No, we're in agreement on that. So then they lose to the bucks.

They lose to the Seahawks. They lose to the Niners. They've beaten the Falcons and the Bengals, which in some weeks shouldn't count as wins in this league. And they've lost the Steelers. Like, I just have not been impressed with really anything they've done in 2019. No. Their most impressive win was probably, or their most impressive game might have been against the Seahawks, honestly, on offense. outside of that, I guess they're against the bucks,

but even that game, golf had to throw the ball like 70 times. Yeah. I mean, it's, this is a strange time. I believe in Sean McVeigh enough for them to do good things. I think things will be fine, but right now I'm just not seeing it.

They're going to need to rebuild that offensive line, and the problem is they have no picks to rebuild the offensive line. That's the concern when you go all in at this point. And we support it when it happens. I am happy that the Rams, did it. I think that the Eagles should have done it. I supported the bears when they were doing it. But when it doesn't work out, you're left kind of sitting there thinking, all right, now what? And the ramps seem to be in that position. All right. Let's throw a couple challenge flags before we get

out of here. Even though they won today, can we just talk about Freddie Kitchens' goal line decision making for a second here? I just don't understand anything about it. They're throwing a series of goal line fades to Odo Becker, which they got a bunch of penalties while doing it. Okay. I mean, if you're going to get a pass interference every time, but it doesn't really help to get the ball in the one yard line where you're just going to line up and slam Nick Chubb into the line out of heavy personnel consistently over and over again and have him lose yardage. It just baffles me so much. We've seen this over and over and over again. When you get down to the goal line, just spread people out. It's not that hard. Do not become more condensed as the field condenses

because it just gives you fewer options. It just doesn't seem like it's that difficult. And I feel like I'm going crazy here because I'm just watching this happen over and over again. And they're just continuing to do it. Producer Craig was not alive. The last time an NFL team ran six plays from inside the two-yard line and did not score. When was the last time it happened? Just 26 years ago. Wow.

Jake Trotter had that. It's pretty good. Well, it's pretty bad. I'm sure kindergarten me would have been very frustrated if he were watching that as well. I mean, could you imagine? So it's not good. And I just don't understand. I have a question.

So like I heard this thing from someone that when the AAF started when Sproier was coaching the Orlando team that someone told there were a couple people who were just joking around about how like seeing Steve Spurrier do because they went for two on every single play. That was like the AF thing. And it was like seeing Steve Spurrier like run those two point conversions was great because they would just steal them. You just steal Steve Sproier's two point plays. He's got a lot of them. They're great.

And what I understand is, like, everyone is so upfront about how it's great to steal plays and all this stuff. If you have Freddie Kitchens, can you just not, like, look at Andy Reid's, like, two-yard play calls and just say, I'm stealing that? Just run that stupid shovel pass that Travis Kelsey. Why can't we get a score? Do you just do that? Like, what are we doing?

Like, why are we coming up with stuff? If we're Freddie Kitchens, that's clearly not working. Let's just steal some plays. And people are talking about how the offensive line, well, they're getting no push, whatever else. This is about putting your players in positions to succeed. Nick Chub, not being able to get a yard is not on Nick Chub. If you see Nick Chub run, the guy is ridiculous. It's just not that difficult to make your players' lives easier.

It's not that hard. People do it all of the time. It's actually pretty simple, especially in that area of the field. It's not difficult to devise plays that can get you two yards. It's really not. All right. Can I, anything else? Can I throw my... No, that's all I got. I don't want to talk about it anymore. I'm going to get upset. Sequin Berkeley had one yard on 13 attempts today.

I saw that. Speaking of... I'm not throwing my challenge flag in the direction of Saquan Berkeley, although I feel like we could have done a little better there. It's just the Giants organization. When you lose to the Adam Gase Jets, you're the problem. Like, this is just not... This is abysmal. I just don't, I don't even know where to go with this right now. The jets are awful and you are worse. I just don't know how you keep building on this. And I understand that young quarterbacks always buy the front office time.

You know, I don't think they'll move off from Pat Shermer knowing how conservative the Mara family's been with coaches and all that in the past. So I think he gets another year. But I don't know how you can look at the Giants say this is a team going in the right direction. It was just an absolutely terrible game. Darius Slayton was great. That's all I have to say. Darius Slate was making plays left and right.

And Golden Tate had a nice day. But yeah, I mean, Jesus, man. If you look at a, so the two running backs in this game, the two starting running backs, one of whom was the second overall pick, another of whom was given a decent amount of money in the offseason. 35 carries for 31 yards. Excuse me, 31 carries for 35 yards.

So 1.13 yards per carry. It has not been a fun year for running backs. It's not what you want, as Malaya Rubin would say. Jamal Adams, though, I will say, was the best player on the field today, I think, for either team. This is the reason that you do not trade Jamal Adams. He essentially won that game for them with that ridiculous strip sack touchdown. Yeah. Jamal Adams is a force, and I wish that he was playing more competitive football somewhere where games mattered.

that they do not matter in MetLife Stadium for either team right now. That is safe to say. All right, bud. What do we think tomorrow's headlines are going to be? There's probably going to be another cycle of Lamar hype, well-deserved Lamar hype, which I think so too. I'm in on. I'm just,

that's great. Love talking about that. I think there's probably going to be some panic buttons. Let's say there's probably going to be a little bit of panic amongst Rams, Rams chatter. I think that there's, Cowboys, too. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. I mean, yes, that's kind of always on a, a slow boil. I think that you start to see what golf looks like, you know, and what that offense looked like against a Steelers team that you should probably be beating even on the road. Yeah, it's, it's bad. You think that people are going to jump the gun with the chiefs a little bit,

or do you think that people are going to be smart enough to kind of slow play that one? The Mahomes thing, there's six and four, the world is not ending. I think that people assume Mojones will only get healthier and then go back to Bing Mahomes, right? I mean, I think that. I think he played well today. I mean, that's not the problem. The problem to me is the rest of the roster.

And his ability to overcome it, and that offense's ability to overcome it. And I'm just not sure that they're at that level right now. All right. So they have the Chargers next Monday night. Then the Raiders in a huge game. Patriots after that. That's pretty good.

I think they'll be okay. I still think they'll be okay. It's just one of those things where... They end with the Broncos, bearers, and chargers. They're going to be fine. Yeah, trust me. Those are three wins right there. I wish I could be transported right now

to the December 22nd Bears Chiefs game to see what that looks like. Who's playing quarterback, how you're reacting to it? I have no interest in being there. It'll be around the holidays, so at least I'll have some solace in my life. But for the most part,

I don't have no interest. As the Bengals Dolphins game, which is just going to be the game of our lifetimes. What a week. Well, the good news is we get to watch Mitchell Trebisky and this Rams offense in primetime next week. So everybody should buckle in for that. Let's ride. All right. That's all we got, guys.

As always, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. We'll talk to you on Thursday. This podcast is brought to you by the all-new season of Shameless on Showtime. Frank and the family are back for another round on the south side will never be the same. Stream now and watch as the Gallagher's hit below the belt and keep their heads above water. Don't miss brand new episodes of Shameless Sundays, only on Showtime.