The Ringer NFL Show - Late Third Quarter and We’ve Got Ourselves a Game (Ep. 194)

Episode Date: December 1, 2017

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark get you set for Week 13, including why the NFC should be rooting for the Vikings over the Falcons (04:30), why the Saints defense need not fear the Panthers offense (12:00), and how the Eagles-Seahawks game could get ugly for Seattle (24:00). Then, the guys discuss why the Giants should have done whatever it takes to extend Eli Manning’s starting streak (30:45) and what makes this version of the Patriots' offense terrifying (34:30). Finally, Danny Kelly joins the show with some starts and sits for your fantasy football regular-season finale (39:00), including why the Eagles backfield is unreliable for fantasy moving forward (41:15). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello! Woo! I'm Mallory Rubin, deputy editor of Theringer.com. Joining me today, now that he's finished gazing upon the Porzing God himself in his care of magical creatures class, it's Ringer staff writer and your maister, Jason Concepcion! And we're here on urgent business. Is it urgent?

It's urgent! To tell you about binge mode weekly our triumphant return to our true home. Our true Dragonstone, your earbuds. We are back! Yeah! On Binge Mode Weekly, Jason and I will be taking our trademark deep dive into the topics that are occupying our minds and hearts,

the events of the moment. Love the scholarly expertise and accessibility of Bidemote Game of Thrones. Then you'll love Binge Mode Weekly, where we'll touch on everything from our favorite books and movies. To the shows that are obsessing us at a given moment. To the sporting events, captivating us.

from week to week. Binge mode weekly starts this Thursday and every Thursday thereafter on the same feed as Binge Mode Game of Thrones. Oh, Thursday. Et. Ooh. Dun-dun-da. Give me that haggard-sized drum roll. Doodd-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-do-d-d-do-d-do-do-do-do-do.

Stay-tude for Binge mode, Harry Potter in spring 2018. AkioBinge mode! Protect Hedig! Jason, I have some. Very distress. news for you. Welcome to the ringer NFL show, part of the Bringer podcast network. I'm Kevin Clark joined by Robert. It's December 1st, Robert. Is it really? I definitely was not paying attention. Oh, yeah. That's the November sneaks up on you. Yeah, I really got it was December 1st. I forget

how many days are November pretty much every single year. So that's fun. It's cold here. I guess I should have known. Isn't it cold in like September? Yeah, but it gets colder, you know. Again, I don't Didn't know it was December. Thanksgiving bleeds into December very quickly for me, I guess. So here we are, December 1st. Let's do it. All right. So we got a lot to cover today.

First of all, I mean, the Cowboys Redskins game last night. We can pretty much finish off the Redskins for the rest of the year. They're done. The Cowboys, I mean, first of all, did you have Alfred Morris outlasting RG3 at any point in the last five years? Probably not. Although Alfred Morris always had that game where it just seemed like he was going to slowly, like, go along for a decade

he was never athletic he was just like you know I'm decent at this I remember his rookie year some of the guys who were playing against him were saying he sort of I don't want to this is the wrong phrase but I mean he's sort of waddles yeah he does the point that it's hard to tackle him yeah he's a very odd style we talk

about like you know games that that translate to old age like you know Alan Iverson Russell Westbroke the sort of athletic point guards those don't necessarily translate to success throughout your 30s. Having said that literally waddling is a way to last past your rookie contract.

It also helps when the other team has no offensive linemen anymore and you're getting fumbles and interceptions left and right off tip passes when Des Bryant does the one thing does Brian does well now, which is just leap over someone in the red zone and catch touchdown fast. I kind of liked it because we were burying Desbro. The news cycle of the last two weeks was Des Bryant should like, I saw a 530 headline that they should just ignore Des Bryant from now. Dax should ignore Des Bryant.

Well, that's where you throw the ball to Des Bryant. Right. It's down there. And that's what Jerry Jones said. I don't know if he saw that. He said, that's how you get the ball to Des Bryant. He's decent at that.

In that area of the field, he can do some damage. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure that this game makes me feel that much better about Dallas. I just think that Washington was kind of a mess. I mean, the amount of turnovers they had early.

I thought Cousins is actually pretty good. I mean, I know he had the pick and then, you know, later in the game, things are kind of falling apart. but for most of that game, I had no reason, again, to not believe he should be paid and be a starting quarterback next season.

Yeah, totally agree. All right, Danny Kelly joins us later to finish out our fantasy football, regular season with the best possible lineup. Finish strong with DK. But first, let's get to our favorite four. These are our top four favorite matchups the weekend. Robert, we got a good one this week.

Big NACC showdown, Viking. First of all, we got a couple good ones. Vikings and Falcons is our headliner. I mean, how can it not be right now? I think that what Minnesota has been doing, and doing it on national TV on Thanksgiving, kind of if you haven't seen the Vikings, now you probably have,

as you were preparing to eat a lot last Thursday, if they looked impressive again, and then Atlanta just slowly starting to get rolling here. I mean, becoming the Falcons team that we thought they might be coming into the season, offense really starting to click. And now you have two teams that present just some fascinating matchups. I mean, just all the individual kind of one-on-ones in this game, some that we're going to have, some we may not have, I think could end up swinging it.

Friday is the 15th anniversary of another Falcons Vikings game, which is when Michael Vic split the Vikings defense in half and made them hurt each other. How long was that touchdown around like 80 yards or something? It was insane. I don't remember. That was his second season then? Would have been 2002? 15 years ago, yeah.

Yeah, I think it was. It was 2001 draft. I think it was. Because the number one pick in the 2002 draft. draft was David Carr. Yeah, let's gloss over that. And now the Falcons have a just as electric quarterback in Mosinu.

So that is a good joke. And I agree with you. And he might be, if considering what the Vikings be able to do with Case Keenum, I think that Mohammed Sunu would be able to do a lot of damage as their quarterback. But I honestly think that Mohammed's anew might be a huge part of this game because we'll see what happens with how often. and Xavier Rhodes follows Julio.

If he does, that's a fascinating thing to watch. I mean, those two guys going at it is must-see television. And then you have Sunu against Trey Wayans on the other side, which Trey Wains likes to grab people. He's not necessarily good at avoiding contact. Muhammad Sanoo is a pretty physical receiver. I just feel like that could be a recipe for several long-pass interference penalties. Not at like 35 yards down the field. That would be the Taylor Gabriel variety.

but just in the intermediate areas where Wayne's mugs him and the Falcons get free first downs. I just see that happening a couple of times in this game. It's interesting to me. We talked about how last week about how you think that the Vikings have the best creative pressure packages

in the NFL. And I like seeing those sort of just as a football observer, I like seeing those sort of matchups where the Falcons have so many weapons and it's pretty hard to attack them and to see what Mike Zimmer is going to do just pressure-wise against the Falcons is very fascinating to me.

I agree. And it's actually something that I wanted to talk about coming into this because I think it's been one of the main differences for Atlanta as their offense has kind of found its stride here. Over the first nine games, Matt Ryan was pressured on 32.9% of his drop-dives. Press three weeks, 27.7. Boom. So significant drop.

Boom. It's 5% of his overall passing plays. He was sacked twice in those past three games. They had an average of 1.75 sacks allowed in the first eight games. So he's been getting more time, and I think that is a big deal. Against Tampa, that's easy to do because you're not really dealing with much in the past rush department, as you haven't been for the past 20 years. Against Minnesota, it's a different kind of animal.

So the fact that you're dealing with Everson Griffin, I mean, that's just one of those things that he's playing as well as any right defensive end in the league. So now it's not a matter of worse than we'll be able to sit back there and run our offense the way we want to. It's going to be a little more rush than it would be the past couple weeks. even Seattle's defensive line isn't playing like this Vikings one is. So that's something to watch. I mean, if they can get to Ryan, that's when they struggled early in the year. Remember that Buffalo game,

just seemed like there was someone in his lap on every single play. And that's going to go a long way in kind of turning this Falcons offense into the one we saw early in the year and not the one we've seen for the past month. I just can't believe Adrian Claibor and Riley Reef is a big matchup here. Like, if you were told me that six weeks ago,

I'd be like, excuse me? I mean, it's just bizarre. It's just bizarre. The one I'm going to watch there, though, on that side of the ball to me, is more so that the Falcons defense, it's playing better, but they're still dead last than rushing DVOA. This is very similar to the group we saw last season, even with some of the personnel changes, with Poe, Clayburn coming back. So the Vikings run the ball a lot. They don't run it necessarily that well. They're pretty middle of the road in efficiency.

But the last couple games, they've had big rushing performances kind of fuel them. They'd won 72 against the Rams, and that's pretty much how they won that game. So the Vikings, even when the running game's not rolling, they use it because the number one thing they want to do, which I wrote about on the ringer.com yesterday, is use play action. No one has used play action more than Keenum this year. And I think that that's a huge deal. So whether the Falcons can slow a team down that is going to try to run the ball is going to go a long way in trying to shut down that play action passing game. You know, it's interesting to me. Just the individual matchups, you know, PFF does a little breakdown of the sort of games within the game every week.

And I was fascinated with a couple of these things. You know, Diggs versus Truffant. That's a great matchup. Because they're just going to sacrifice Diggs to him and let Thielen work against Alford, which I think is really interesting. Exactly. And Thielen, I mean, I would imagine Thielen has a nice game on Sunday.

That would be my guess. And then, you know, Snoot versus Newman. I mean, it's just, I'm intrigued by, I'm really excited about this game and more excited than I have been for a game in the last couple weeks because it's really, It's going to tell us a lot about the NFC playoff picture. Do we need to worry about the Falcons?

We've been talking the last couple weeks, what team scares us? Because there's so many incomplete teams that a lot of these teams have to be judged on, on, you know, what they do well. And with the Falcons, does a team like New Orleans or Minnesota or Carolina have to worry about playing this team in the playoffs?

And I think we're going to find a lot about that. on Sunday. I mean, I think the answer is yes. Yeah. I think that right now they're looking like that team and yes, this week will go a long way and kind of determining that for sure and solidifying it. But now we're getting to a place where the Falcons are one game back of the Saints and the Panthers in the NFC South. And the Falcons play the Saints twice. Could you imagine if people have to go to Atlanta again? I mean, that is just the worst possible option for all of these teams. That is not something you want to do. Go to that, but I know it's a different building, but it's still indoors and it's still this offense.

Is it louder or less loud? I'm not heard of less loud. I'm not heard a report on that. Have you been to the Georgia Dome before? Yeah. I've only been one time. It was for last year's NFC championship game. I'm from the south, Robert.

Oh, yeah. That's our, that's our White House. That's a good point. So gathering spot culturally for everyone. I was just, again, setting in the situation matter there, but I was just blown away by the atmosphere and everything else. So I can't imagine it's that good that fast. But still, to me, it's more, you know, the comforts of your own home and an indoor setting for that offense that could definitely use one.

So, again, that's pretty far off considering their game back in the NFC South. But geez, man, if they can go on a run here, that that becomes daunting. All right, Panthers and Saints. Speaking of those NFC South teams. Yeah, man. I mean, this one is, this one's interesting again on kind of a micro level. I think that what we saw from Carolina last week is the type of offense I want to see from them, right? They're running the ball well.

That's how they've really, they made their bones against the Jets. And that is where the Saints have been weakest this year. The 26th in rushing DVOA. The passing defense has been really good, but they haven't stopped guys on the ground. And if the Panthers can get something rolling, that is the best version of this offense. They've just had trouble finding it at times this year. Did you see Charles Johnson was suspended for four games? Really?

Not that it matters. The thing he gets spent it for four games for. PEDs? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Charles Johnson's like 40 years old, right? I know. It's amazing.

So we just give him a break? The Panthers have are just the anti-patriots. And why is Charles Johnson still on the team? Yeah. What can send you to a small contract? No, no, no, no. I know, but they would have just, I mean, first of all, the fact that he got through his entire contract was amazing. It's remarkable.

Considering the deal that it was. Good for Charles Johnson, by the way. He was just hats off to Marty. Herney for looking out for his guys. I do a lot of sort of analysis of the salary cap and I was really interested in that that Panthers team at the time when they were really good. And the reason they weren't one of these like salary cap miracles where they had low cost everywhere and were able to make it is because they spent so much money on Charles

Johnson. And Jonathan Stewart. Yeah. Marty Hurney. Those are the contracts. It's good that Marty Herney's back. It's good that he's back. Yeah.

I really hope that Christian McAweck. Jeffrey gets a $100 million extension in the moment he can get one. It's going to be fun. Ryan Khalil, you know, obviously is going to be, I saw a story earlier this week that he hopes to play again the season, but it's probably not going to be this week. I think that's

interesting. I think that's intriguing to watch. It's funny that they've been okay without him in the running game. They haven't necessarily taken a tumble because they weren't good at the beginning of this season. So it's kind of impressive they've been able to sustain that, considering how good he is. It's going to be an interesting matchup. You know,

Marshawn Lattimore not practicing on Thursday. So maybe we don't see him. And so these might be, I don't know. I mean, I'm intrigued to see the Saints without Lattimore because he's been such a game changer. And he's known, you know, there have been so many people in the NFL who've talked to me about the way, almost the miraculous way that the New Orleans secondary figured themselves out as the season went along and how rarely that happens. but Lattimore developed so quickly that essentially they were able to become a good team on the fly. And without Lattimore, you know, we saw them stumble a little bit last week. I'm intrigued to see what happens against a pretty good Panthers offense.

Well, you know, that's the thing about that is that there's a night, this is the nice team for that to happen with, you know? The timing on this is not bad for the Saints because Devin Funches is the guy you have to worry about. And while Devin Funches has had a fine season, he's not one of the wide receivers you'd be afraid of. I mean, in a league where pretty much every team has a terrifying wide receiver, Devin Funches is not that. I'm sorry, Devin Funches. The injury I'm more worried about for the Saints is Toronto Armstead.

Yeah. Because when he was hurt early in the season and when they had some tackle issues, they had the luxury of Ramchick being able to just pop over to left tackle because that's before Streif went out for the year. So now with Ramchek kind of solidified over the other side, I'm not sure what they're going to do if Armstead can't play. You know, do they move the backup guard to left tackle? They move Pete to left tackle.

That's where you start getting into trouble when you start moving multiple guys around. So I'll be curious to see what happens there because if they just kind of stick that back up left guard at left tackle and let Julius Pepper's work against him all day, that could be an issue. Julius Pepper is in year 30 of him being an issue. I mean, he's had a good season. I think his stack numbers are a little inflated, just late in the down stacks, whatever. But he still presents a problem, which is insane. I mean, we saw sort of that his role was revealed to us early in the season. He's going to be just the guy who gets sacks.

That's it. And that's fine. That works out just fine for him. It's good work if you can get it. Even outside of the personnel, what I'm curious to see with the Saints offense is the approach they take on Sunday. Because it seems like this is the type of game where you'd want to go away from kind of the game plan you've had for most of the season.

Because the Panthers are a very good run defense. And the Panthers don't give up big play. is to running backs in the passing game because Luke Keeckley is not Elk Ogletree. So is this the game where you kind of lean on Michael Thomas? You saw the game that Robbie Anderson and Jermaine Kerriss had against Carolina last week. And if you're looking at this Panthers defense, the secondary is where you'd want to go after them. So I'll be curious to see if this is the game where Michael Thomas gets 15 targets, where if they can find a way to hit a big play to Ted Ginn over the top,

seems like that might be available. We might see a lot more Drew Brees than we've seen for most of the season. in this one. The Panthers, I've never seen more a few of praise of anybody in the Panthers praising Alvin Kamara.

They're trying to kill it. They're just like, I haven't seen anything like him. Like, yeah, okay. He's Luke Kikley. I haven't seen anything like him. Wow. I think they might be okay.

Alien versus predator. Yeah, you know what? That works for me. Lions or Ravens, Rick Wagner revenge game. That's all I'm kidding. That's the only thing I'm watching for, just the amount of.

It's like when LeBron and back to Cleveland the first time. I was there actually. Which was the LeBron Cleveland thing? Yeah. Okay. Are you going to the Rick Wagner Revenge game? I was not.

So it was the, it was 2010 and I had gotten hired at Grantland, but we weren't starting yet. So I just had nothing to do. Yeah. So I was just sitting at home and I was like, Cleveland's six hours away. Wouldn't it be awesome to go to this?

So I went. It was great. That sounds great. Yeah. It was just like the type of thing you do at 22 when you don't have a job. It's like, all right. I'm just going to go to this random sport event. You went as a fan?

Yeah. wouldn't that be a prohibitively expensive event to go to if you're not a fan of one of the teams it's like a hundred and twenty five bucks to buy ticket that's not bad that's a midwest buddy yep it was not bad at all and actually it was very funny i managed to sneak down to press row because i knew people working and there were seats next to them so i sat in like the second row for most of the game people didn't really care about the seating arrangements that day there's little too much vitriol directed other places nobody ever cares about the seating arrangements all right let's get to livens ryan lions lions i think we're avoiding this

because it's not that interesting of a game. It just has a lot of important implications. The Ravens are just going to make the playoffs with games to spare. It seems like that's kind of why this game is interesting. That's why I want to talk about it is that's where we're headed. If the Ravens win this week, all the excitement we have about the Chargers and everything else, it starts to get a little dire.

The Ravens in the playoffs serenario, like we're looking at it and I don't like it. No one's coming to save us from the Joe Flacko playoff game. I would be curious to see. how Detroit can move the ball on this Baltimore. Because this Ravens defense is really good. I mean, we're not talking about, like, oh, a defense that's better than the offense. So that's what we talk about.

It's like a guy who can't shoot in the NBA, so you just assume he's a good defender. In actuality, that's not always true. With the Ravens, it is true. I mean, they're the number one offense by DVOA. It's a fantastic group, very few weaknesses. So we'll see what happens. I think that the best kind of an avenue in my mind is what Golden Tate does. against whoever that slot corner is for Baltimore.

Because that's the spot they're probably weakest. Curious to see how the cornerback snaps shakeout for the Ravens. Humphrey's been playing a little bit more. So we'll see how that all works. But those wide receiver to cornerback kind of advantages, Detroit has most weeks. They won't have this week. And you can probably say the same thing against Minnesota,

and they still manage to make like three big plays. So that's what the Lions need at this point. They need their receivers to make a few scattered big plays because especially against this team, they might as well even try to run the ball. Also a Jim Caldwell revenge game. So much revenge going on here. So much revenge.

There's also a rule, by the way, about catchers and the lower their batting averages, the more people assume they're a defensive specialist. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's another good one. That's a big thing. Yeah, I mean, at some point, I've said this a lot.

I know it's a well-worn cliche at this point, but at some point you are what your record says you are. I know it's the Bill Parcelli. thing. But at some point, the fact that the Ravens are going to win 10 games just to test them into their defense, they have three shutouts, they have some dominating performances, they're able to score or get close to scoring on defense. And so, look, I understand America's frustration if we're upset about Joe Flacco being in the playoffs. But that's, you know, I just don't see, I don't see the bill sticking with them. I don't see any of the Bengals making a run. If the Chargers

make the playoffs, it's because the chiefs keep losing. I don't know if the Chargers are going to knock the Ravens out of a wild card. And so, I mean, if the Ravens lose this week and the Chargers win, they're both six and six. I mean, I think that could happen. Well, no, the Chargers have the Browns. The Chargers play the Browns. That's what I'm saying. So they're probably win this week.

Buffalo plays New England, so they'll probably lose. The Bengals play Pittsburgh. So they'll probably lose. So right now, after this week, the Chargers should be behind only the Ravens. And I don't, I, this is, my fault. I didn't look up the tiebreakers for the Chargers and the Ravens, but if they're both six and six, then you start to get a little bit, you start to feel a little bit better about the charges chances to kind of jump them in the next couple weeks. Yeah, but they could also just win the

division. Sure, but I would like two avenues for the Chargers to make the playoffs. I need for entertainment reasons the Chargers to make the playoffs over the Ravens. I desperately need it to happen. What about the Chiefs? I'd still rather watch the Chiefs than the Ravens. The Ravens have the Browns, Colts, and Bengals to finish out the season. They have Steelers next week, though. Well, you can pencil them in for at least nine wins, and then if they split this, then they'll get 10. I mean, I guess, I guess.

I mean, I say this, but then I'm relying on Joe Flacco to reliably close out three games at the end of the season. What a strange team. I mean, it's amazing how they've managed to just milk these wins. I can't even it's like squeezing water from a rock. It's unbelievable the fact that they can even put up points. I mean, it's just Alex Collins and nothing

and the defense is really good. And they do weird special team stuff. It's an odd team. I mean, you think that as a Bears fan, I would love them, but. And no one seems to care that Alex Collins is so good. No, because he rushes for 60 yards a game because he gets hit in the backfield.

Everybody. He's third and yards per carry in the NFL. Is he really? Yeah, he's behind Ingram and, Hunt. Oh, that's interesting. I mean, it's, I'm not shocked watching him. He's very good. It's just, that offensive line is such a mess. I mean, he's really kind of churning out these 60-yard games on 20 carries. And that's to no fault of his own. It's the guy. It's like one of those things you watch a guy. You're like, oh, that guy's good. It doesn't matter with the numbers say to me, like, that guy is

good at football, even if the box score looks like crap, it's when it's all over. And that's just unfortunate. Like, that's just the state of this offense is they need him to get everything he can of every single run or they got nothing else. Yeah, I can't believe Marty Mornowig's still there. You know what? I don't fault the coaching staff

that much. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't mean that they should have fired him.

I mean, I can't believe he hasn't just incidentally already been fired. Like, I thought he was fired last year. Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean,

Flacco's been such, so terrible. And the fact that they have no offensive linemen on the interior. I mean, that's just, it's been a nightmare.

I mean, everything that could have gone wrong for their offense did. And Joe Flacco is still bad. This is a terrible situation. So, I don't know. It's rough to watch. But again, they're just cruising

along here. They could absolutely win this week and put themselves right in the driver's seat. All right. Let's get into actually intriguing matchup. Which is less intriguing now than it was a month ago. I don't care. Eagles and Seahawks. We've talked about Seahawks so much. And this is just one of those games

where it feels like the Eagles could come in, win big, and just kind of symbolically like take a like NFC supremacy because the Seahawks even if they didn't make the the play out of the Super Bowl last year they have been the power in the NFC for the last five seasons I mean there's no denying that and if the Eagles kind of come in and just say

you know this is our conference more or less one that wouldn't surprise you too would mean more against Seattle than it would against pretty much everyone else I just want to say one very quick thing I talked to Richard Sherman yesterday for a piece that went up on the ringer today Friday and he

not only said Bobby Wagner as a defensive player of the year, but he got very, very upset at the idea that and it's a bit of a brag, but I get it, that he hasn't won a defensive player of the year, that Earl Thomas hasn't won a defensive player of the year,

and that Bobby Wagner, I guess he's not being overlooked, he will win it, but his frustration was that he thinks that defenses get unfairly judged for having too many good players around them, whereas offenses do not. and he actually mentioned Luke Keekeley specifically as someone who maybe gets a little too much credit. So what I'm intrigued by is seeing, and this is an unfortunate side effect of all the injuries,

but I'm intrigued to see Earl Thomas and Bobby Wagner without talent around them. Does that make sense? Just to see what those pieces look like without them, because Sherman's point being that the CX defense has been so stacked for years, I'm intrigued to see what they do without a stacked defense. I think that the overall efficiency and effectiveness of the defense declines

but watching Bobby Wagner last week, he was a monster. That's what I'm saying. I mean, the guy was an absolute monster. I think that point is extremely well taken, by the way. We kind of knock defensive players for that but we don't knock offensive players for that. I think there are a couple different reasons. One, stats.

Numbers allow us to kind of put an objective measure to performance, even if it's not objective. What happened with Matt Ryan last year? Matt Ryan was in the perfect system, a ton of talent around him, just had one of the most efficient offensive seasons ever and won the MVP.

So we can kind of look at the numbers and say, that's the MVP, even if we don't take into account the help that exists around him. On defense, that's never going to happen. There are no stats for Earl Thomas because people don't throw at him, so he's not going to intercept passes.

That's the problem. It's harder to parse the overall quality of defensive players and just put a number, number to it. And I think that's why safeties and corners that don't pick off a lot of passes and even inside linebackers don't win defensive player of the year because you need numbers to win

national awards. Sure, but I feel like we have more numbers now. And I sort of feel like we're five or ten years away from this happening, but you know, the old, the old joke, you know, so and so went the entire season without being thrown to or, you know, has gone three months

up being thrown to. Those guys should be automatically put into the defense Player of the Year competition and we're now able to figure out, oh, so and so goes 14 snaps per target or something like that. So I think that there's a little more of a need for advanced statistics, I guess, in defensive player of the year specifically. I totally agree with you. I think that we should look at that stuff. I don't think a lot of people do. Do you have a defense player of the year vote? I know. No. So, I mean, that's the problem. The biggest crime in my mind for that I think we could pretty easily.

I mean, I would take one. I like awards. I think it's pretty easy to sign up. You can do it. We'll get you one. Sounds good. That works for me. I think, speaking to that,

the biggest crime in that award over the past decade, I think without question, is that Dorel Rivas never won it. Right. Like, that's just crazy. Yeah. Aside from sort of the nomadi assimala thing,

which is different because the Raider just had crap around him, Revis is the best example of the last 15 years of a guy Just no one threw at ever And it turned them into the best past defense in the league Yeah So it's not as if he was just this isolated player on a bad team And I think that's kind of what you could have You could have made that argument about Earl Thomas

The problem is Earl Thomas has Richard Sherman And by it's that's the issue is that Giving credit becomes difficult Because you throw it at everybody Yeah it's amazing that Dorel Revis never won I don't hate that he didn't win in 2009 Because Charles Woodson was really good that year for a very good defense,

but it still is just odd to look at this list and not see Dorel Rivas's name. It's ridiculous. I'm angry about a transplant. I wasn't until Richard Sherman brought this up. Awards matter to me. So I always get angry about them. You dubbed yourself a big awards guy.

I am a big awards guy. I think that stuff matters because that's the stuff that you look at 50 years from now. If we're going to use those things, and you don't care about the Hall of Fame, but if we're going to use that stuff to determine who gets into the Hall of Fame and who doesn't, then we should take this stuff seriously.

That is my opinion on them. matter. I'd like to be in the Hall of Fame. I think you could get there one day. I would, I would, uh, as if contributor. What's your similarity score on pro football reference? Um, who's, who's,

uh, Jan Stennerud? Who's, Morton Anderson. Oh, there you go. That's perfect. He's probably on the,

run on the border there. I'm sure you have a case. Morton got in. Did he? Is he in? Yeah. I don't care about kickers. I care of a whole thing.

I, I, the only reason I knew that as a, went through the channels during the training camp during training camp and I saw the induction and Moore Anderson was talking. That's how I found out he was in. That's great. Yeah, I did not.

That part of it I missed. Is there anything else we want to talk about with Eagle Seahawks? It just feels like this is a bad matcher for Seattle. You know, Mike Lombardi and I did a video a couple days ago and he really he just wants to see, and I can get this. He wants to see the Eagles in a hostile environment

like Seattle because it is a little different than a lot of places in the NFL. I think we overblow it. I mean, I think playing in the NFC East, Carson Wentz has played in a lot of caldrons. So it's not like he plays in the NFC, you know, the AFC South or something. Like it's, he's been there before.

But I do think Seattle's a nice test. Richard Sherman, early investor in Bitcoin, by the way. I mean, the guy knows what he's doing. One more thing, just football-wise, before we move on here. Dwayne Brown did not practice again on Thursday. The Eagles defensive line is the Eagles defensive line. If they're missing one or two guys on that offensive line, it's going to get real ugly in a hurry.

Not good, folks. Not great. All right, now it's time for the hottest take that I actually kind of believe. It's an informed hot take. It's not going to be just baseless takes so you can get that elsewhere. Yeah, that's not for us. It depends how much time I have to do research. I mean, sometimes it's just baseless.

That's a joke, everybody. So I think it's pretty clear. What was the news of the week? Eli Manning. I think the Maris should do one of two things. I think they should resolve this now. Either just release Eli. Screw it.

Who cares? I guess you can't do that for dead money. What I would do is I would have fired Ben McA do this week. I would have staged. It's not a coup because you're the owner. It's the opposite of a coup. It's called running a business. I would have done what needed to be done.

to extend Eli Manning's starting streak because you're actively hurting the franchise it's a power play by Ben McAdo it's horrifying like if you if you want to start Davis Webb that's one I know that might eventually be the plan

and he keeps hinting at that but there's also been conflicting reports about Davis Webb and his available and his playing time this week but to end Eli's starting streak which we know now means the world to him. After 14 seasons of him, you know, being at least an above average quarterback and being, you know, winning two Super Bowls, I mean, to end it like this is horrifying.

Just fired by McAdoo right now. They didn't, by the way, they didn't even, during the press conference this week, Mara didn't even commit to keeping McAdo through the end of the season, so why let him do this damage? I have a couple thoughts on this. One, if you were Eli Manning on that practice this week, during their practice this week, and somebody told you, okay, it's time to go in for the scout team, Eli. What would you have said?

I would have thought you'd go to hell. I'm not moving from this spot. Congratulations. Enjoy your football practice. The problem there is he probably gave a very angry face, but as we know, no one can decipher any of Eli's faces. And so they were just like, Eli seems fine about this. And that's the other side of this is that, you know, we poke fun at Eli Manning a lot. And it's easy to do.

And my first reaction was to post that photo from the Super Bowl, because I'm sure that's how he was feeling when he got that news. But this is a guy who started for a decade and a half. He won two Super Bowls. He clearly took his job as the giant starting quarterback very seriously. And as the rest of this team was an utter joke over the last season, Eli Manning still came to work and was like a professional about being a quarterback in the NFL. To do him like this is just disgusting. It is just completely unacceptable and really speaks to just how

terrifyingly mismanaged that team is right now. Could you imagine working? You just talked about how Manning was able to take his job seriously. Could you imagine working for Ben McAdoo and taking her job seriously? No, and that's why Eli Manning should both be these giant starting quarterback and probably an Oscar nominee. I just, if Ben McAdoo were my editor here, I'd show up at noon every day in a tank top.

it's LA doesn't everybody show up tank tops of the office I wear a lightweight jacket that's right I know I've seen all of them all right no buddy you haven't seen any of them it's like the end of Indiana Jones I have a warehouse full of that all right we've covered a lot Robert what are we missing so we'll talk about the Patriots just for a little bit you know you and I discuss this all the time where it's hard to talk about the Patriots just because they're so good all the time it's a lot of the similar it's a lot of similar topics and just similar ideas. They're a very good football team. What's interesting about them? So what stuck out to me about

last week's game against Miami and what I think will be a staple of their offense for the rest of the year is just how they use their running backs. So New England's number two in offensive DVOA. They were number one before last week when the Saints just were excellent again. So this is one of the best offenses in football and they're efficient and excellent in a way that's different. And if you look at the way they use their running backs, it's kind of fascinating. They have three guys that they use consistently, but unlike a team like the Eagles, they have three guys they use consistently and in similar ways. They're all interchangeable and it makes them really dangerous. So the fact that you can have Dionne Lewis be essentially your first down running back now, which he's become and he's

been very good at it, and then have him split out wide as a wide receiver two plays later is terrifying. On the next play after they use Lewis as a wide receiver against Miami, they used James white on the other side split out wide. On back-to-back plays different running backs. They have two running backs they can do that with. And the real thing is they have three running backs they can do that with because Burkhead does that all the time. If you go back and watch his touchdown against Miami, it's just a fascinating play.

They line up in 23 personnel with three tight ends and a fullback. Before the snap, they have the tight end in the left, Hollister, go wide as a wide receiver. They have Martell's Bennett flip sides and they have Rob Grancous. you go wide out to the right. They then have Burkhead motion out to the slot. So what was 23 personnel becomes 11 personnel in three seconds. And the defense has no idea what to do. Burkhead is one-on-one in the slot against a linebacker, and it's an easy touchdown.

And this stuff just happens all the time with them. They play with formations and tendencies with their backs better than any other team in the league. And it really does give them easy throws. Time Brady's incredible. Are you suggesting that the Patriots are really good at tendencies, Robert? Yes, I am. I know. This is not interesting because we talk about all the time.

It is still popping up. It is interesting. But what I'm joking about is just the fact that they've mastered every position tendency-wise. I know. And it's incredible. And like even I wrote about this this week with play action and they used to it in the league. And the Patriots are middle of the road in rushing percentage. Now, they don't pound the ball at all.

But they run it enough on first down to play with tendencies. They run it 52% of the time, which is rare. Teams don't often run more than they pass. pass. So the fact that the Patriots just obligatory, have obligatory runs on first down, just so they can use play action against you, they're always two steps ahead. Something is always setting up something else. And that's why they're just so hard to deal with. I mean, the only thing is that, the only thing I can say about that is that I'm,

they've gotten so good at spreading out their running back shares that Mike Gillisley is not the fantasy stud that he should have been. I was going to mention that. he's just out of the rotation. I mean, it's amazing. Because we figured that among all of those guys, that Dan Lewis would be the guy that kind of fell away.

And it just hasn't happened. He's been their best running back. At one point, I think everyone else was talking about trading him at one point. And Michael and Barty was saying how crazy that was. They would never do it. And clearly they should because he's been their best running back. Amazing.

The Patriot's ability to change the narrative like five times in a season is extremely, impressive. It's unbelievable. All right. Coming up, Danny Kelly will be here to tell you who to start and sit in all your important week 13 matchups. Plus, Robert, and I will give you a peek into the future of next week's headlines. It's the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network. It's December, Robert. Have you started holiday shopping yet? I actually have, which I'm pretty proud of. And man, the total for that stuff piles up fast. Between that, all the parties and the events you have around the holidays,

people spend money like it's water this time of year. Even water costs money, Robert, now. I know, it never ends. Luckily, people can get some extra cash this holiday season at MyBooky. MyBooky can service all your betting needs and they offer super fast payouts when you win. MyBooky is the only site we recommend because where you bet is just as important as who you're betting on. They have odds on every matchup imaginable and you can bet right from your smartphone with their mobile app. Join now and MyBooky will match your deposit with up to a 50% bonus. Use the promo code Ringer NFL to activate the offer.

Visit MyBooky.ag today. play, you win, you get paid. Time to welcome in Danny Kelly. Danny, the copy now says our fantasy football guy. You've been downgraded from genius. How does that feel, Danny? You're like Eli Manning with the podcast.

I thought I've been doing pretty well lately. We got Gino coming in to give his picks later. Danny, unless you've got the number one spot locked up or you're out of the playoffs altogether, most fantasy football players need to win this week. Yeah. So last

week of the fantasy season. So give us some starts and sits. Let's begin with running back, D.K. My guy to start this week is Alex Collins versus the Lions. Yeah. Big week for Alex Collins on the podcast. Big week. Has he ever been mentioned on this podcast? Yeah, we've mentioned it before. He's never been mentioned like four times though. Have we talked about how he does Irish dancing? Yeah, I know. I was going to bring that up, but I don't know. Have you seen it? Have you seen the Irish dancing? I've seen clips of it. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty impressive. It actually makes sense as a skill for a running back. Just like foot quickness.

Yeah, but it's kind of a chicken and egg thing. I mean, like, I'm sure he's good at Irish dancing because he's an NFL running back. No, that's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I don't think he's a running back because he learned that Irish dance. If you're that athletic, if you're that athletic, like, I would I would do other stuff. It's more fun than doing the ladder.

The ladder drill, you know, the foot quickness. Yeah, exactly. You might as well do some Irish dancing instead of the ladder drills. I mean, it's much better use of your time. Danny, you're Irish? I am. I'm Irish too. I've never, I've never danced.

Danny Kelly, I'm not sure he is. I've never, I know, I'm Irish as well. I was identifying a fellow Irishman. I've never Irish danced to my life. I have not either. I wish I would. It seems kind of fun. You can do it.

Maybe I will. This is like the defensive, this is like Robert with a defensive player of the year. I mean, these is attainable goals here. That's true. I have no excuse. We just don't believe, Kevin.

We just don't want it enough. That's the problem. Danny, we should just believe in ourselves a little bit more. We'll work on it. I promise we can get you a defensive player of the year vote. All right. Let's make it happen.

Not this year. Danny, what do you like about Alex Collins against the Lions? All right. So, I mean, apart from, honestly,

you know, apart from just the fact that I like him as a player, Detroit's run defense has really kind of falling off in the last few weeks. I was looking at their stats over the last four games. Over the last four weeks, they're given up 5.2 points per carry.

They've given up eight touchdowns. those are both second worst in the NFL. And he's kind of locked in as their starter at this point. Obviously, they've got kind of a rotation at the running back spot, but on first and second down, he's sort of their guy. And I mean, you have to, I wonder what you guys would say about this, but it seems like this could be one of those games where the game script actually works in the favor of the Ravens in terms of they slow things down.

The Ravens have a really good defense. They could give some problems to the Lions. and, you know, the Ravens basically have zero pass game, so they might as well lean on Collins and kind of give him a heavy dose of carries this week. I totally agree. We talked about that a little bit earlier. I feel like it's the only route they have to offense. And what's interesting is that even if the, as the Lions past deep,

running defense has gotten a little worse over the last few weeks, they're actually number one in the league against, excuse me, number two in the league against running back passes by DVO, which is very interesting. Yeah. So it just seems like this might not be the game for Danny Woodhead and they could lean on Collins even more than they have. Yeah, absolutely. So to me, it's both, I like Collins and I think that's a good matchup for him.

So to me, if you're kind of on the fence about Collins, I think you should feel confident for him. Yeah, I agree. And now we're doing sits. My guy to sit at the running back spot is J.J.J.I. versus the Seahawks. I think, you know, obviously he's kind of relied on some big plays. over the last few weeks. He's only had eight, seven, and five carries

in his last three games. He's relied on just like explosive big plays. And right now the CX are actually playing really, really well against the run. They started out the year, you know, pretty bad. I think they were like in the 20s or, you know, like even like close to the 30s in terms of their rank against the run.

And so this year, in the last four weeks, they've only given up 2.5 yards per carry, which is tied for first with Philly, actually. And then 64 yards. yards per game, which is really, really good. So Jai, to me, feels like a really touchdown-dependent start. And with the way their rotation works, we don't really know how the game's going to go. I don't think they're going to be able to lean heavily on their run game against the CX.

I just think the CX are going to take that away from them. So Jai, to me, looks like a risky start. That running back situation is going to be maddening. In the fantasy playoffs, too, you're not going to feel good about any of those guys. From a football perspective, it works wonders. Right. Because they're so unpredictable. There's so many different ways they can hit you.

but if he's going to get seven carries, you can't feel good about putting him in there, especially against Seattle. I agree. All right, Danny. How about wide receivers? My receiver one is actually kind of, you know,

I don't know if this, I was thinking about him as one of my dark nights, but I think you can feel confident about going with Marquis Lee's leave for the Jaguars. He's been quiet the last couple weeks. You know, he's gone up against, last week he went up against Patrick Peterson. That kind of took him out of the game.

But prior to that, I saw this stat. He had 48 targets over his last. five weeks before that. So he's definitely like the number one guy in that offense. You know, obviously Bortles isn't the best, but volume is king in fantasy football. And going up against the Colts defense that not only, you know,

they've lost Vante Davis, they've lost Malik Hooker, and now Rishon Melvin is out. So, I mean, I don't know who they got back there, but it's not going to be pretty. And so, yeah, I think Lee is going to get plenty of targets. I think he can feel confident going with him this week. Did you know, how long?

do you take deciding who's going to be your dark night and who's not a dark night? I spend way too much time on it. I essentially, usually my sort of routine is to spend almost the whole Thursday night football like researching and going through everything. And if I have time before that, you know, spend a little bit time to that. Do you ever like in your mind do like a Batman stick? Like you go to your cave? I mean, I told you guys, I do the, I do the pod from the,

basement. So, no, but I'm just, do you visualize it? Are you just like, this is me in my bad cave? Yeah, I have, like, there's like waterfalls in the back and yeah, that's fine everywhere. Alfred, you have an old age man. He's got to get into it. It's mindfulness.

Okay. Who you're sitting down for the water series this weekend, any? T. Yilton on the other side, the ball there. I mean, good luck if you want to go against this Jags defense. Number one, they are amazing against the pass. 65, they're giving up a 66 pass rating this year. year second in the NFL 166 yards a game first in the NFL 5.9 yards per attempt first in NFL just nine touchdowns all year first in the NFL and they're also first in DVOA against

number one receivers this year not even just first in DVOA 38.3 yards per game to number one receivers yeah and their DVA is negative 65.5 Detroit is number two at negative 35.2 they're almost twice as good I guess number one receiver as any other defense in the league. That is insane. Yeah. To me like, okay,

Hilton's great because he can always get behind a defense. He's fast. And if you want to really bank on him doing that, then good luck with that. But to me, that's about the riskiest receiver, you know, start that you can have this week.

38 yards a game. Good God. I wish that team had a quarterback. It's just a crime. I'm going the other way on this. Oh. I like it. I like the Bortles thing.

you just think it's a nice wrench to throw in there? I think it's funny. Why is it? Why do we need a, I don't want a dominant, like, if the Jaguars had a quarterback, they'd be going like 14 and 2.

Yeah, that's fun. I would like to see them have a quarterback next year. It would be enjoyable to me. Yeah, next year, fine,

but like, let's enjoy Bordels plus elite defense. Historically good defense. Hey, for the next few weeks, I'll enjoy it. And then next year,

I will like watching them. have a quarterback. Are they going to have Eli Manning? I don't know. Maybe. Oh, probably. All right, let's get to quarterback standing. All right. So my start for the quarterback position is Phillip Rivers versus the Browns. El Bolo. He's on fire lately. He's got 685 yards passing and five touchdowns,

10 and a half yards per attempt and 131.9 rating in the last two games. So he's kind of feeling it, going up against a Brown's defense that is 27th in the NFL versus in DVOA this year. You know, they're not a good pass defense. They got a really good front though. So they're I mean, I'm guessing that it's going to be tough sledding in terms of running the ball this week for the, for the Chargers.

So could see good volume from Rivers, could see them really rely on that passing game a little bit more. And I think, you know, he's just, it's at home. You know, obviously that's not necessarily a strong home field advantage, but, you know, it should be fine in terms of the weather and all that. So, yeah, I'm going with Rivers. I think it sets up for him to have a big game. Yep. My sit for quarterback is Alex Smith against the Jets.

I just, I kind of just lot, you know, there's so many different options this week. And banking on Smith kind of regaining his early season excellence just feels like a huge risk in this important of a week. Last four games, he's got four touchdowns of four interceptions. He just hasn't looked confident. He hasn't looked in rhythm. You know, the Jets aren't necessarily like a tough, tough defense to go against. But I just, you know, banking on him going back to what he looked like earlier in the year, it's a risky proposition. Yeah, I totally agree.

I wouldn't put him in any lineup. If you have any other quarterback at this point, even Bortles, I would start over Alex Smith right now. Against the Colts, why not? Ready for this? The Jaguars are the only team ranked in the top five in point differential, turnover differential, yardage differential, and sack differential this season.

The only team in the NFL who've done that. Guess who the last team to do that was? 85 Bears. The 2007 Patriots. I was thinking more defense, but yeah, that way, that makes sense. So the Jaguars are the best team since the 07 Patriots. That's just that's what he's saying. Yeah.

I'm comfortable saying that. All right. Are you ready for D.K.'s dark nights? Do you have something else? Yeah, so my dark night this week, running back Austin Echler, the Chargers. You know, obviously, like I said earlier, the Browns have a very strong run defense. And I don't know if Melvin Gordon's going to get things going too much in that. And so they could really lean on the running back out of the,

backfield thing like that. He's really good. He's explosive. We talked about this in the past. The Browns right now, very good against the run, but they're also 31st in the NFL versus running backs

in the passing game per DVOA. They're giving up a league high, 27% of their passing yardage to running backs this year. I saw that stat from Anthony Staggs on Twitter. So it just sets up well for them. I think Echler has 49.9 receiving points in the last four weeks,

which is fourth among running. running backs. I saw that at Rich Rybar. So, yeah, I mean, it just all sets up while. His name kind of was just around this week. And I just, I think it's a good matchup. So if you got him, feel confident. He's, he's my dark night this week. And even beyond out of the backfield, I totally agree with all that, Danny.

And those stats are jarring. I mean, it makes him even more attractive. But if you look at that big play he had, the passing game last week, they used him as a receiver, line up wide to the left. So this is a situation where they're not only using him just as, the option in passing downs. They're actually scheming stuff for him. And that's when you become,

these guys get really interesting at that point. That's when they become exciting. It's like, okay, now he's a very defined part of their offense. So it's not even as if they need to go away from what they want to do. This is part of what they want to do now. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. All right, buddy.

Thank you very much. We'll talk to you on Tuesday. All right. Sounds good. All right. Before we go, we want to predict next week's biggest headlines, Robert. A lot of big games this week. I mean, we talked about it, the Falcons and the Vikings, we have the Saints Panthers.

But it just seems like right now those are conversations and kind of storylines that have been around for the last couple weeks. The new stuff from this week that I think will absolutely linger is the story about Eric Reed and Malcolm Jenkins and everything that's going out with the players coalition. If you guys have not heard about this, you know, Jim Trotter and Jason Reed from ESPN reported that the league is planning to give $100 million to various social causes that. kind of stem from this player's coalition that was started by Malcolm Jenkins and Anklon Bolden or confronted by that. And, you know, that seems on paper like, okay, the protests have kind of created some actual change and things are happening, whatever else. And then you hear that Eric Reed and Michael Thomas from the Niners and the Dolphins,

respectively, have left the coalition because of some issues they have with demands that were made from them individually, from just some of the involvement they've had in meetings. So now we have a fracturing within the group of players who kind of has taken on the voice that Colin Kaepernick wanted to establish last year. So it just feels like this is getting more complicated, not less. And the league is really trying to just write a check to kind of make this stuff go away, it seems. And I think that that is going to be a topic of conversation, both now, next week, and probably beyond, because it's a real issue. If the players that are involved in this and want to get something done, don't see eye to eye. and don't feel as if they're moving in step

and doing it the right way. Totally agree. Mine is going to be a little more on the field, though. I think you look at the NFC South. And I think we're going to learn a lot about the NFC South this week and the next couple of weeks because obviously the Falcons have the Vikings, then you have the big NFC South matchup

with the Saints and the Panthers. And then next week, obviously, Saints and Falcons on Thursday night. And so I just think, and then by the way, after that, Vikings are Panthers. So we're going to learn a lot about this division next couple of weeks. I think that we've been sweeping on it as a really fun competitive division. Obviously, we've known that they've been really good teams there. But there's a real good potential for three playoff teams and three exciting playoff teams.

This isn't, I mean, sometimes you get a division race. It's like, okay, I don't care about the – this is a good division. And I'm intrigued to see what happened the next couple weeks. This is like the exact opposite. If the, say, like the Bengals and the Ravens were to both sneak in, this is like the exact opposite of that. All the teams are intriguing. Exactly.

That Falcon Saints game next week. Oh, boy. I'm really looking forward to that. All right, that's it for today. We'll be back on Tuesday with recap of week 13. As always, thanks for listening to The Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks, guys.