The Ringer NFL Show - Lions and Raiders Going in Opposite Directions, It Might Be Time to Worry About the Chiefs, and More Big Takeaways from Week 8 | Extra Point Taken

Episode Date: October 31, 2023

Ben and Sheil get together to share their reactions to the Lions' tough win over the Raiders on ‘MNF.' They then examine the potency of Patrick Mahomes’s current supporting cast, and debate whether the Chiefs have enough talent to make another title run (7:20). Ben then explains why Matthew Stafford’s thumb injury has him rethinking the Rams’ season, while Sheil shares his concerns about Desmond Ridder and the Falcons (22:45). They end the pod with a dire warning about Zach Wilson, and a breakdown of all the big news around the league heading into the trade deadline (44:32). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Sheil Kapadia and Ben Solak Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Musical Elements: Devon Renaldo Social: Kiera Givens and Eduardo Ocampo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Rigger Gambling Feed is back every Monday. Join myself, Joe House. Rahim Palmer and John Dershepsie for East Coast Bias. Sunday's action recap and our favorite bets for Monday night football. Then on Tuesday we got the Rosseudemann Show where I'll break down everything you need to know in the betting world. Plus the East Coast Bias boys will be back on Thursday to help you get your betting card sorted ahead of all the NFL action. And then on Fridays it's me back with Warren Sharp, deep diving into the analytics. So be sure to subscribe on.

Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Extra Point Take. Cheal Capati here, joined by Ben Solac. Following Monday night football, the Detroit Lions take care of business, handle the Las Vegas Raiders 2614 in a game that was not nearly as close as that 12-point margin even indicates we will talk about that game and then we will go around the league and share our takes from everything that happened in week. Ben Solac, how we doing?

About 16 hours left to the deadline, as we're talking about it now, when you listen, it'll be later. My favorite time of the year, everybody makes sure you're doing your part, petition the gods, you know, do the knuckle bones, read the organs, whatever you do, scry, all, whatever is necessary to bring a good trade deadline into being. I'm pumped up. Well, luckily, I know you always monitor what's happening online during the show. So if something breaks, you can just yell out, we've got a trade,

and we can have a live reaction. I need something to do when you're talking. Usually just scroll to it. Exactly. I know. So I'm not worried about that. And then, of course, if something happens in the next between now and 4 p.m. on Tuesday, you know, the Ringer family will jump back on the Ringer NFL feed and talk about the big trades. All right, let's get to my first take here.

As I mentioned, Lions beat the Raiders handily. My big take was these are two organizations heading in completely different directions because of the choices that they made. I mean, you're looking at that Lions fan base, and then you're imagining what it's like to be a Raiders fan right now, right? And how different is it? Lions, young players all over the field tonight, Jemir Gibbs. Oh my gosh, he looked incredible, 189 yards from scrimmished. He looked amazing. Amon Raus St. Brown, Sam Laporta, Brian Brantel, Lee McNeil, every snap. There was a young player for the Lions making place. This was its organization two years ago, 3, 13 and 1.

But you know what? They committed to building something the right way. They're well coached. They're 6 and 2. They're the 2 seat in the NFC right now. They're 14 and 4 in their last 18 games. Do you realize the world we live in Ben Solac? You live in Michigan.

The Lions are 14 and 4 in their last 18 games. I'm pretty sure that has never happened in my lifetime, and I'm like three times as old as you. They're not perfect. But I can't think of many fan bases right now. that should be like more excited or happier with their team than the Detroit lines. And then you look on the other sideline and you got the fricking clueless Las Vegas Raiders, 9 and 16 under Josh McDaniels.

No playing a quarterback. They changed their every offseason. They want to do something different. They changed their mind. They trade for Devante Adams. He didn't look too happy to me tonight. Max Crosby just wasting the prime of his career legitimately, one of the best players in the NFL having to play for that defense.

No plan, no hope. They're four and four. Their fan base should be irate having to watch this team. So I know the Raiders fans will keep watching. They're a loyal bunch and you're probably thinking, hey, we're four and four. Our season isn't over. The organization is a train wreck and I don't see any hope for them. Meanwhile, Lions fans, make sure those weekends in January, you know, you got the shared

Google calendar like the Capadius have. So then, you know, you and your partner don't miss stuff. Make sure those weekends in January are open. This is a really, really good. team that is absolutely capable of making a run in the playoffs in a weird season in the NFC. So I don't know, I'm sure there are other bigger takeaways that might be more game specific or we've talked, I feel like a lot about these two teams. But that just struck me, what a difference there was in kind of the vibes, the feelings

of these two organizations, these two teams, again, because of the choices that they have made over the past two or three seasons. She'll on the pre-show, I told you, you had to bring the heat with the Lions Raiders take because I was fired up. Was that weak? Yes. Two teams had a different direction. We already knew this. The correct take is this.

I will save the take. Okay. Give it to me. Get DeVante out of Las Vegas. Get him out. Get him out of the city. Put him in a different city on a different team. It's the only thing I'm interested in for the next 16 hours. So he's just saved Devante Adams.

Well, see, this is why I am a content veteran. and I know that by the time people listen to this, Devante Adams might be already be on another team where the trade deadline might have already passed. So see, I had to make mine a little more timely with the window. Okay, so you are not, you're allowed to make no trade deadline comments this entire pod then. If that's the way we're playing this, trying to be as timely as possible. Listen, there's already been trades made.

I'm going to get to those later. All right, anything else from you from this game. Devante Adams, I mean, if they are a smart franchise, which we know they are not, and if they cared about anything other than Ben Solax's number one rule of job security, you trade Devante Adams. You can get a first round pick for Devante Adams. Your team's going nowhere. You need assets to acquire young talent and build for the future.

This is one of the few pieces you have. He doesn't want to be there. Obviously, you have no use for him. You can't even get him to football. You can't even complete a pass to the guy. He's one of the best wide receivers of our lifetime, and you can't even complete a pass to him. Move him. There are teams that could use him.

There are teams that would give up a first-round pick for Devante Adams, but I don't think they will do that. But we'll see. Maybe they will. I think that Devante is unlikely to do anything with the Raiders through the rest of the season that would justify his price tag. And so you either have to consign yourself to playing every single week with your star looking furious, and you also spending a ton of money on him and nobody being happy,

or you see if you can milk a team for a huge deal right now. Because I do think that a big enough deal is out there. Like, this is Devante Adams. I think Cowboys, I think Lions, I think Chargers, I think Chiefs, Chargers and Chiefs are in the division. So, like, that's probably not happening. To me, there are enough teams out there that you could drum up a pretty substantial price for Devante Adams and feel good about it. Does he just go to the Detroit locker room and say, I'm not leaving? I said he should go in and kind of handcuff himself to like a post, like a little peaceful protest and be like, I will not leave until they put me in a lion's jersey, at which time I will leave.

I thought it would be a good, good strategy, maybe potentially, we'll see. There you go. We're recording right after this, so maybe he's doing this as we speak. I was going to make a joke, like, forget his license in the Detroit locker room, and then he can't get through TSA, and he can't get on the plane, but I'm pretty sure they were not to go through TSA. So that one didn't fit as much. I went for the peaceful protest thing. There you go.

All right. What do you have for your first take of the show? All right. I've been a long time not worrier about the Chiefs. Every time we've talked about the Chiefs, I asked you on the top of a pod a few weeks ago, you get all these Chiefs questions you worried about the Chiefs, and you were like, yeah, no, I'm not really about them. I was like, yeah, I'm not worried about them.

Other shows, I've said, and you worried about the Chiefs? I said, no, I'm not worried about the Chiefs. Folks, I'm here to tell you, after losing to the Denver Broncos, after failing to perform against the defense to give up 70 points of Miami Dolphins, I'm still not worried about the Chiefs.

I'm not even close. It's not, I can't do it. The quarterback had the flu, a mile above sea level, man. Like, I, Broncos fans got mad at me today because I said, listen, Like, simplest explanation is the best explanation. The Chiefs lost and they were bad on offense because the quarterback had the flu.

And they were like, wow, no credit to the Broncos defense. All right, well, sure, some. But let's be like, you weren't walking into that game thinking you were going to have that performance. Mahomes was sick. Malm's was sick and played poorly. Now, if we look over the course of the season, right, there's stuff that people want to point at and poke at and say this isn't good with the Chief's offense. Right now, Mahomes is scrambling on over 7% of his dropbacks. It's the highest single season mark of his career to this point.

It's only a little bit high, but it is the highest. His average time to throw right now is 2.86 seconds. That is also the highest of his career. 2.75 is the previous. So it's a little bit over, but it's not crazy. Air yards per attempt, he's at 6.8 air yards per attempt. It's the lowest of his career. So right now he's holding onto the ball for longer than he's ever been in his career.

He's throwing shallower than he's ever done in his career. And he's scrambling more he's ever done in his career. All of this is symptomatic. The cause is the wide receivers aren't good. The passive game isn't working the way it should. And so Mahomes is throwing underneath more often. And he's holding out of the ball more trying to make stuff happen. Arjun Mennon on Twitter, who's a good analytics follow,

had a chart today where he showed, the chiefs have the longest time to pressure as a team in the league right now, which is to say on downs where the quarterback is pressured, it takes defense is the longest amount of time to get to the chiefs, to pressure against the chief's offensive line relative to the rest of the opposite line in the league. They're not like losing early. It's not like Donovan Smith and John Taylor are really struggling. I don't think they're playing great.

But it's not like their off the line is getting beat early off the line. And Mahomes immediately going in scramble mode because of that. It's because they're having issues with receivers getting open downfields because Holmes is kind of holding out of the football and looking for more down throws. Malm's facing a lot of too high. He's has to check the ball down a lot. He's not going to like connecting on deep passes the way he typically does.

And it's frustrating. It's annoying. Right. And sometimes he'll miss Justin Watson by a yard. You're like, all right, well, you should have hit Justin Watson. And then the next time he'll put the ball on Skymore and Skymore won't catch it. And Andy Reid will go in the press and be like, well, they were hooking Skymore's arm. And it's like, yeah, but Skymore should have caught the football, dude.

Like, there's the reason why the plays aren't connecting are, there's many of them, there's multiple reasons. It's not that Mahomes is way worse. It's not that like all the receivers are terrible. It's that they haven't gotten on the same page. But I can't turn on the film and tell you that the Chiefs lost the Broncos for any other reason. And like Mahomes just simply was not playing well. He was not himself. I think it's because he was sick.

nor can I turn on the phone of the last eight weeks and be like, man, the six and two chiefs are really struggling. Oh, these six and two chiefs such a bad offense. They've made a very concerted effort

to invest in the running game over the last few off seasons and to invest in yards after the catch of the last few seasons anticipating this change, anticipating the fact that defenses would increasingly get better taking away the deep ball.

And while Mahomes is at the highest time to throw of his career, he is at the lowest airs of time of his career. He also leads league in quarterbacking right now in your odds after the catch. Like there's a lot of this that's kind of working the way intended. It's not as pretty. It's not as sexy, but it's part of what has to happen

when defenses are so oriented on taking away your elite quarterback and not letting them connect deep. So I can't get there. Like I know it feels like a ripe opportunity. Like, wow, the Broncos of being lost the Chiefs the last 17 times. This is our chance. Like let's, here we go. The Chiefs are in trouble. I'm not there.

I'm not there. Maybe I'll get there by December. I'm not there yet. Well, I don't think this has happened before yet this season. Solek, I think it happened last year, where we have corresponding takes on the same team, and mine's going to be different. So let's have it out. In opposite direction. It's nice. It's okay to be concerned about the Chiefs offense. Now, everything is relative, what you said. Yes, they have Mahomes, they have Andy Reed, they have Travis Kelsey, they're six and two. No one's saying they stink. No one's saying they have a bad offense.

They have a good offense. They have a top 10 offense. However, the bar for the key Kansas City Chiefs is different than the bar for every other team. They are in Patrick Mahomes' prime. They are trying to win Super Bowls every season. They lost to the Broncos Sunday, as you mentioned. They have played 102 games with Patrick Mahomes. That was their worst offensive performance ever in terms of EPA per drive. They went 10 possessions.

They did not score a touchdown. Like you said, Patrick Mahomes was sick. Maybe that explains it. But we've seen Patrick Mahomes played through all kinds of stuff in his career, and they've never had a performance that was as bad as that one was on Sunday. Then you zoom out. This is not just a one game thing. They have not had a single offensive performance this season that qualifies as an above-average Mahomes performance.

Not him individually, but if you take those 102 games that they've had with Patrick Mahomes, none of them this year rank in the top 51 of a Mahomes game, above average for a Mahomes' chief's performance. That is an eight-game sample. That is concerning to me. If we look at the six seasons with Patrick Mahomes, this is by far the worst they've been in EPA per drive, success rate. They're averaging 23.4 points per game. That's four points fewer than they've averaged in any other season with Patrick Mahomes. So I think it's okay to be concerned.

You laid out the reasoning, and I agree with you. This isn't a Patrick Mahomes is declining. No, no, no, this has nothing to do with Patrick Mahomes. This has to do with the supporting cast and the limits to saying, hey, we have Mahomes and Reid. Everything else is going to be fine. Well, yeah, it was last year, no doubt about it. Now you have Travis Kelsey a year older.

You made some changes at wide receiver in the off season. Those haven't panned out. You've taken dart throws on younger guys. Those guys are not reliable. You gave the numbers. It looks like Patrick Mahomes is back there and he's looking around and not, and he has to be Superman, even when the offense plays well, that stuff is not in rhythm.

Stuff is not schemed up. There is no trust with the wide receivers he has on the roster right now. So I think it's okay to have concerns about this group. Now, they could have 500 yards on Sunday morning in Germany against the Miami Dolphins. That wouldn't surprise anyone. That's always in play with Mahomes and Reed. But we have an eight-game sample here that tells us they haven't even had a single above-average Mahomes Chief's performance in eight games.

And maybe it's okay. Maybe their defense is better and they can still win the Super Bowl like this. But I think that's a conversation worth having. This is not the same Chiefs offense we've seen in previous years with Patrick Mahomes. It's not even close to the same offense. Again, still very good, still top 10. But I think it's okay to be concerned about this group. So not a single game this season is an above average Mahome game.

Yeah? Correct. Guess who's currently top five in both success rate and EPA for play among quarterbacks? No, no. No, no. I'm not saying it's on Mahomes. I'm saying the team performance with Patrick Mahomes. So we have this sample of 102 games with Patrick Mahomes.

So you have a baseline. What is it? Yeah, I know it's Mahomes. I just said, I'm not arguing that Patrick Mahomes is having a bad season. He's not. I'm saying you look at the offense compared to previous versions of this Chief's offense, and it's not even close to the same. I said league-wide.

League-wide, they're probably what, sixth, seventh, eighth, right around there in most statistical categories. Yeah, I mean, their fifth and offensive success rate, their seventh and offensive e paper drive, their fifth in offensive e paper dropback. It's an overall down year for offense, and the chiefs are a little bit more down than they usually are. Superman's heat vision is only traveling, like,

near the speed of light right now. Like, that's why for me, like, it's, the reason why I can't get there with concerns about the chiefs, it's obviously, it's less about 2023 Mahomes, and it's more about, like, 2019 through 2022, Mahomes where like he was so remarkably leaps and bounds better than every single quarterback all

of the time. The level at which he was QB1 unchallenged, lock it, throw away the key was astonishing. And we were never capable of estimating that. We never did a good job. Even in like the heyday of every single Twitter account, every single Instagram account posting every single Mahomes throw 17 yards, no look behind the back. Oh, crazy, no one else in the quarterback can do this. Even in that era of Mahomes, when he was a sensation, we still, we were underestimating him. We were undervaluing just how incredible he was, such that this player who has played eight below average games this year, eight of his lesser games, his worst games,

remains one of the best quarterbacks and one of the best offenses in the league by any measure. And so all, like, all I'm hearing is like, all right, if he just, just regresses statistically. They're going to get better and they're on offense now and they're a top five unit. Like, the tenor of the offense has changed. The perception of the way it works is different than it was previously. And so you can talk about that as like sign of bad things to come and like they're

never going to be as explosive as they were in Shirley. They don't have Tyree kill anymore. Travis Kelsey's like 40 or something. He's 34. Like they're older than they were. They're not the same as they were. Okay. The fact that he can have eight below average games, like I watched Joe Burrow have four

below average games to start the season, and the Bengals' offense was putrid. I watched Josh Allen have a below average game, and they lose to Zach Wilson. Mahomes has a blow as eight below average games in a row as they go six and two. He is so ridiculously good that the relative measure, the only way to make this season look bad is to measure him against his previous selves. Measure him against anything else and they're fine. They're great. But I'm not arguing that. I have no argument about Patrick Mahomes' performance dipping.

It is not about him. To me, it's about the support against. You don't have concern that this version of the Chiefs offense, If they have to win three games, let's say, against the Baltimore Ravens, against Captain Lou, yep, I'm going to make that a thing. I'm curious with the number of people who have signed off on Captain Liu. It's terrible that you're taking this from me. And against, can't you, I can just see a scenario where they lose in the playoffs and we go,

yeah, because he's throwing to freaking Sky Moore and Justin Watson and MVS and Cadarious Tony's. Like, like this group is to me, I don't know. it could happen, but they're making it very hard on themselves harder than I think they needed to. I do not like the supporting cast. I think when you have Mahomes, when you have Reed, they can compensate for stuff. But you know what? The answer is always build the biggest, baddest offense you can. And I thought the Tyree Kill trade was fine. And last year, guess what? They traded Tyree Kill and they had by far the best offense in the NFL. It wasn't even close. It was one of the best versions of the Chiefs offense we've seen statistically. That's not happening this year. And so again,

as we count down to the, like, if they go into the rest of the season and the playoffs, and I'm a Chiefs fan, I'll be like, this is really who we're surrounding our future Hall of Fave, perhaps the greatest quarterback of all time with in a season in his prime. That would be disappointing to me because they haven't shown through eight games that they can really overcome that to play at an elite level. They can play at a very good level. But again, their bar is so high. Like, if they don't win the Super Bowl, Chiefs fans are disappointed this year.

It's different than almost every other team. and I don't know that they're given themselves the best chance to win a Super Bowl with the supporting cast they've put around. I hear you. I understand what you're saying. We're talking about different things, talking about the same topic in different ways because you're talking about like, hey, because the bar is here for the chiefs,

they might underperform. And for me, I'm saying, because the bar is here for the chiefs, we can't even calibrate to them because it's so ludicrously high that we don't even know how to talk about like a below average Mahomes season when he's still six and two. So the perception of the chiefs is just warped, period,

because of what they've established for themselves. three AFC playoff games, win three games in a row, Super Bowl. Can I see them losing because of their receiver room? Absolutely, I can't. If they lose that, I feel so confident that will be why they lose if they lose. All right, I also three postseason games in a row last season, I said the Chiefs might lose their game because they were playing multiple rookie corners, which is like an illegal thing to do in the postseason.

And like a fourth rounder they had out there. I was like, all right, like, you can't do this. And then they just did it. They did it over and over again, right? And there's so many different ways to lose playoff games, right? They lost the last the playoff game to the Buccaneers, the offensive line injuries. Like, I'm not going to prognosticate how they lose their playoff games in January.

Certainly right now, like, what's the weakness of the chief team is past catchers? Nobody's acting like it's not past catchers. But teams, like, teams find ways to lose playoff games. But that's the most important part of their passing game is the most important part of their team. Passing game is also a part of most teams, brother. Yeah, and they're trying to do it with a group that is what a bottom five group in the entire NFL? Bottom 10, certainly. Definitely below average.

It would include Kelsey. I think it's tough to get them bottom five. But yeah. Okay. Why are they doing that? That is my main point. It's like that is the part that concerns me. Second round pick on Skymore.

Second round pick over. All right. Trade back for Mikul Hardman. Signed Markes Vel to scaling phrase. They tried not to. They missed. Sometimes you missed. Well, why are the bills going into every single postseason with no corner two opposite Trinavius

White? They tried. Why are they going every postseason without a good pass force plan? They tried. Like that's part of building the teams. You miss sometimes. Yeah. I mean, with the Chiefs, I think, and this would take a longer conversation.

I think you can take a longer look at some of the use of resources. I mean, they signed Joanne Taylor to, what, $20 million a year in the offseason to play right tackle. And some of the other, I would have to look at, you know, draft picks and do a deeper dive on that. But I don't know. At this point, I feel like if I were a Chiefs fan, I would want them to take. take a big swing and add to that room with something beyond Mikul Harbman. But we'll see. So you feel more confident in them.

They're not like, listen, they're still on the short list of Super Bowl contenders. There's no doubt about it. But to me, it's like you want to maximize the percentage chance that this team is going to win the Super Bowl. And I feel like how they've built it and the supporting cast they have right now. And the way the offense has performed through the first eight games, I have concern about that. All right. Let's take a break.

Come back with more on extra point take. All right, we are back on extra point-taking. This is weird for me. I've already, I've already, like, fired off two of my takes. I feel like I'm usually doing that second one. Oh, shoot, it's my turn. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that was, that was in my idea.

You're already back up. I mean, if your next take is another same topic, I don't know, this might be the shortest extra point taken in our show's history. I think we'll solve that problem, no problem. My next take, second take is brought to by Hyundai today. You can do a lot from your phone, watch games, play with your fantasy teams, listen to us, talk about football all day, and now with Blue Link Plus,

you can access your Hyundai Tucson Limited remotely with just a few taps. Unlock your door, set the temp, and more all from your phone. Get complimentary, class-leading Blue League Plus. It's just another way. Owning a Hyundai Tucson Limited

is more convenient than ever. She'll take number two is this. Last week, you and I were excited about the Rams. Seventh seed, baby. Good looks at NFC. Plucky team, here we go. One Matthew Stafford thumb injury,

and the arrow is flipped. I'm very worried about the Rams. Now, the Rams got like, you know, the front door kicked in early against the Cowboys a little bit. That game's got out of hand so quickly because of turnovers that it was tough for them to fight their way back in. Honestly, like the Cowboys kind of let them hang around and it's a two-score game in the second half, whatever. The score and the script of the game made things look worse than they were. But the real bad news was that Matthew Stafford sprained his UCL. It's a joint in your thumb.

It's on his throwing hand. And now he's considered day-to-day. but also like the Rams tried to add John Walford into their roster and John Wofford said, no, I'm cool just chilling on the Bucks practice squad, which is a hilarious thing, not important, but very funny to me. Day to day, they've talked about how long

they might potentially need to shelve him. Brett Rippin is the backup there. And when Brett Rippin goes into the game, you remember, oh, shoot, the Rams have no young plan right now at quarterback. They tried to have a young plan at quarterback. The Rams drafted actually quite early in the 2023 NFL draft Stets and Bennett. who was the national champion winning quarterback of Georgia.

He was a fourth round pick for them, which was a lot earlier than people thought he would go. And they were very excited about him. They're like, we really like Stetson. We want him to kind of be a plan for us as a young quarterback. When you and I talked about the Rams in the preseason show, we would talk a lot about like, all right, if Stafford's healthy, cool, good, Cooper Cup, Aaron Donald, do some stuff.

Stafford is becoming off of back injuries, coming off of elbow injuries. There's a chance he's just not healthy at all. And the Rams reportedly had done some work on potentially trading him, moving off of the contract. In the world of which, like, Stafford starts the season, and he's injured and he's not healthy, the Rams are really interested in a bad spot young player-wise, young quarterback-wise. I was on their under for team wins this season.

And Stets and Bennett might be somebody who gets some reps. Bennett had an odd process with the Rams. There's not a lot of clarity on what's going on with Bennett. McVeigh said this week that they don't expect Bennett to be with the team at all this year. He was kind of put on, I think he was put on the exempt list. He was kind of non-football illness. list. Yeah, and NFI list.

So we don't really know what's going on with that. And we obviously hope everything is good there. But Ben, it's not going to be available for them. Ripon's guy who's been around in the league. They really don't have a young quarterback option, which means like this Ram season is kind of pot committed, right? The chips are in the middle.

Like your young development thing didn't really happen because some of your young guys, like Byron Young, the pass rusher, Pook and Akua, just walked into her good right away. Like you didn't really have to deal with the young development thing. They just happened. You don't have a young quarterback. And so. Every game that they miss with Stafford, they just fall further and further back on what's a competitive NFC West and a fairly competitive NFC field.

They're probably not going to be a playoff team. Once Stafford comes back, they're not really going to be able to justify playing Ripin over him because Reppin's not really the future of the team. And if they continue to lose and lose and lose games, the Rams right now have the ninth overall selection. And so last week, we were talking about the Rams like sneaky seven seed. Right now I'm talking about Rams a sneaky seven overall pick. Like we have flipped this thing on its head. And the Rams are on a team to watch at the deadline, in my opinion, to a, quite a young quarterback.

I don't think that, you know, a Tray Lance or Malik Willis trade would like absolutely blow my mind. We don't really know the long-term thing for Stafford, but I'll tell you, thumb injury on the throwing hand does not feel like the sort of thing for me where you're off for a week and then you're fine. It feels like the sort of thing that affects your play long term. They can support the Rams get a young quarterback on the roster now, if they can,

off of waivers somewhere and kind of maybe kick the tires on a guy. And if they aren't able to do that, the Rams to me are going very quickly from like, Stafford's healthy, we can keep doing this. It might be time to go get that young quarterback at the top of the 20-24 draft now. I mean, that was kind of the theme of week eight in a way, wasn't it?

With some of these teeth, you know, like the Vikings are probably, it's like the exact same thing with the Vikings. Yeah, I was, you know, before the season it was well, is Stafford, 35-year-old Stafford going to be able to stay healthy coming off a back injury playing behind that offensive line. And man, when he played, oh, he looks so, so good. And he was making unbelievable throws. Early in that game, I was like,

you, Dak and Stafford are shredding. We're in for a classic. And then the Cowboys had like two immediate turnover touchdowns and Stafford hurt his thumb. And then the Rams threw the Philly special to him, by the way. The Rams threw a two-pointed version, two to Atwell, Philly special,

to their quarterback who had a wrapped thumb. They knew he had an injury. He had to adjust and die for it. What are you doing? Not important, but very funny. Well, I think it is important. McVease, I think, said that that's kind of when he really injured the thumb.

Like it was kind of injured before. And then on that two-point try, that was like where really got. Is that really? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true. Yeah, I think Jordan Rodriguez, I think had that. That's when he, like, legitimately heard it even more.

Now, I know you go into each game with only so many two-point tries, but, man, that, that is rough to lose a quarterback on that play there. So we'll see. I mean, it sounded like McVeigh today was painting a picture of this isn't quite as bad as we thought it was going to be. So we will see, I'm with you when I see thumb injury on. throwing hand. I'm like that even if a guy does play, it's going to affect him. Now, Matthew Stafford has played through all kinds of things. So we'll see what it looks like. But yeah,

that was, I was kind of like, oh, you know, reviewing stuff today. I'm like, the Rams just could be done. They're three and five. And if the quarterback's injured, their season's going to be over. So we just have to kind of wait and see there. But you're right. I think a lot of these teams were kind of on the fence here. You know, what do we do at the trade deadline? The Titans were another one. The Titans win a game. And now does that make them less likely? to move people, the Vikings, really were playing well. I mean, the Vikings really, I would have been ready for a Vikings that are making the playoff stake, I think, if Kirk doesn't stay down.

When the Vikings were two and four, I got into it with Stephen a little bit. And I was like, the Vikings, you really like the Vikings? I was like, Vikings aren't going to win more in six and a half games. And I was, we were going to like put a bet on it. We never followed it up. And then they won two games. Then Kirk got hurt. And I was like, wow, that's a roller coaster for that conversation.

Yeah. I mean, their offense was really playing well. So that's another one there. and yet you just have kind of all these, a lot of these teams and sort of that, that middle ground where you're not sure which way, which way they're going to go where that, that will, should, could make for an interesting trade deadline. But I'm with you on the Rams. I mean, yeah, it's, it's a bummer.

If Stafford is going to be out for a while, if he's healthy, they still have a chance, I think, at three and five. But right now, we don't know if he's going to be healthy or not. And I don't know what the future looks like for them either. Yeah. Well, once again, today's action point taken was brought to you by Hyundai. Get Compoundary Class Leading Blue Link Plus with your Hyundai, Tucson, limited to make things more convenient than ever.

Locker, unlock the door, set the temp, locate your car, and more all from your phone. Learn more about the new Tucson and Blue Link Plus at HyundaiUSA.com. Call 562-3-1-4603 shield for complete details. All right. Thank you for that. Thank you to Hyundai. All right, I am up here with the third take. Ben, it's too early.

It's too early in the show. This double chief's thing threw me off. I feel like I need to wait. All right. But I've got an overflow of tape. We'll just do an extra point taken for 20 minutes. I always walk into the show with like six takes that I pick the ones I'm going to do as we go.

So I got extras. Don't remember about it. Me too. All right. Now, I want the audience to know, let the record show that I sent Ben a message earlier today. Oh, I forgot about it. He said, are you doing anything on the Falcons? Because I feel like we got to talk about the Falcons

at some point in the show. The people will demand it. We had a nice big debate last week. And now there's news about the Falcons. and So that was like, I don't really think I got anything on the Falcons. I know he's got something on the Falcons, but I'm going to come in with the Falcons take and he can respond. I wonder if he might agree with me on this.

I don't know because this isn't, you know, specific to one Desmond Ritter. All right, my take on the Falcons is your boy already needs to figure out what he wants. I mean, I don't even know how many people followed this because I feel like this is one of those stories that's big and our little football circles, but most people are like, oh, yeah, Chiefs, Mahal, you know, they're like, we are in people. paying attention to Falcons Titans other than those Will Levis highlights. So let me give you some background. The Falcons lose to the Titans on Sunday.

Taylor Heineke replaces Desmond Ritter in the second half. According to all the reporting, and this is from the athletic, the team wanted Ritter to be evaluated for a concussion during the game. Ritter said he couldn't think of a hit or a play that would warrant being tested for a concussion, but he said, you know what, I defer to the coaches. If they thought something was up, I'm glad they, flagged it and had me go through the testing. He clears concussion protocol and was good to go in the third quarter.

But Arthur Smith stuck with Taylor Heineke, said after the game, they just wanted to be cautious. And he said he did not take Ritter out because of performance issues. Okay, little strange, but that's fine. Monday. When asked if Ritter would start, if cleared medically, Smith said, and I quote, I have to see where he's at. That's the best I can give you. I have to see if that's the best thing for this team this week.

Obviously, it's not something I'm concerned about long term. He's done a lot of good things. We have to find a way to go win this game. If it's Taylor, that's what we'll do. Okay, so again, still a little confusing there. It was just last Thursday, Ben, that Arthur Smith, I don't know if this crossed your eyeballs, was asked why he thinks Ritter is getting criticized more than other quarterbacks.

Oh, no, I saw that. And he attributed it to, quote, toxic group think, unquote, from people who don't watch the film. All right, I don't know where this leaves us. So like, okay, I wish I could tell you exactly what's going on. Every time I watch an Arthur Smith quote or read a quote or see something from his press conference, I become more and more confused. It seems like nobody seems to know what's going on with his decision making.

Maybe it's as simple as he's benching Ritter and he doesn't want to say that. I feel like you could probably say that. If he was sticking with Ritter, it would be a very easy, yes, as long as he's healthy, he'll start, but we have to make sure he's healthy. Again, Arthur Smith did not say that he left the door open for Taylor Heineke to start this game on Sunday against the Vikings, regardless of whether Ritter is healthy or not. So zooming out and looking at Arthur Smith, I think he's a good offensive coach. There's no doubt about it.

But the Falcons this year are 24th in offensive DVOA. They have faced the easiest schedule in the NFL and they are four and four. They are 18 and 24 in three seasons with Arthur Smith. The team is worse offensively this year than it was last year with Marcus Mariotta. So I don't know what this season is about for Arthur Smith. Is it about getting an evaluation on Desmond Ritter so that you can plan your future? Is it about making the playoffs because every NFL head coach wants to win? And as Solek will always remind us, you also got to keep your job is a good thing.

Is it about that? What's the plan for 2024 and beyond? because I have no idea what it is, and I don't think there's a high ceiling for this year's team, even though they very easily could win the division, as Solek has predicted. So I'm just very confused by what your boy Arthur Smith wants, what he's trying to accomplish, what he's doing with Ritter and Heineke, really how this organization operates. Remember, this was an organization that was pretty much going all in for Deshaun Watson when he was available short of offering him that full guaranteed contract, but they haven't really gone after

any other quarterbacks since then. All right. So I know that was a lot. I don't know what your boy wants. What does your boy want? What do you make of this situation? All right.

You keep you keep saying your boy, your boy, your boy, your boy. Shield, I need listeners. Like, listeners don't. They always, I need people to listen critically to this show. Like, don't listen to it for the enjoyment. Like, oh, I have fun listening to Ben and Shield.

Don't listen to it for the enjoyment. How success. Like, Sheel always, like, pivotes me and posits me. Like, oh, there comes Ben the hamster with your boy Arthur Smith like everything that's wrong in the world is like let's put Ben right next to

that so it's just sneaky now sneaky shield Arthur Smith is my boy from a schematic football coaching play executing perspective I would like to thoroughly and resoundingly disavow Arthur Smith the man behind the podium

I have never once endorsed this individual and never will not mine not my boy don't like what he does out on Arthur Smith, the politician, the PR guy. This is such a classic, like, okay, like the number one job is keep the job on one, number two jobs is win games. If you want to do the jobs, a really good way to do the jobs well is to not be a constant

war with the people that you talk to publicly, which Arthur Smith has just decided to be. Stop treating reporters like this. Like, this isn't even like a Ben as a reporter take. This is like a don't be mean to people take. Like he's just very pugnacious up there by the podium. So you inherently invite questions like, did you bench debt? Like, of course you're going to get asked this.

Very reasonable questions, yeah. You have bristles when you ask this. And so, yeah, your responses are now going to be framed like in a pugnacious light, in a negative light, because you have put yourself opposite the people asking them. You are bringing this on yourself, dude. Bejohn Robinson was sick. So we didn't play.

Yeah, that's another one. The games we wanted to give it a go. Bang. We thought Desperriter had a concussion. He was cleared. I'm really worried about concussions. I don't want to get into a situation where we were wrong. So we didn't play him for the second half.

Okay. Who's going to start on Sunday? Ask me Wednesday. Oh, no for sure. He'd like, he seems like he got to Atlanta. And the head of Atlanta PR was like, all right, you're going to do your opening press conference. He was like, wait, I have to talk to people.

I'm here. Did no one warn you? This is part of the job. It's, it's, it invites so much more attention and so much more ire than is necessary. I never planned on being like, night and shining Falcon Armor defending this team. I just like kind of like them. I like their scheme. I like that they're big. I think they're tough and physical.

They think they're win the South. But there's so much visibility on them because he behaves like this. Specifically on Ritter and Heineke. Ritter's playing the first half the same way in playing the rest of the game, making good throws, makes tough throws, and he takes sacks in the pocket, and he fumbles the ball. The fumble dude, and he's got, like, both hands on the ball,

climbing the pocket. Jeffrey Simmons is, like, falling over next to him and just, like, reaches out and slaps it. Ritter needs to be doing, you know those grip strength things, the hand exercise? He needs some of those in the offseason. This guy cannot hold on to the football. He gets batted on one hand, he loses it. So you get the fumble, and then second half comes out. Heineke plays the same way.

Like, Hanigieg did what he does in Washington. He's gritty, and he makes it. makes tough throws, he makes aggressive throws, thrown out of tight windows, he had a nice ball on a would-be touchdown, on the touchdown of Scotty Miller. It makes some escapes. Like, Ritter had like a 20-yard run in this game.

He had like a 15-yard run in this game. They're largely the same quarterback. Like, if you take Ritter out and put Heidi Kemp for the rest of the season, I'm still going to think the Falcons are going to win the division and go 10 and 7. Because, like, I like what they are offensively. I like what they are defensively. I will say, Grady Jarrett injury sucks.

Really sucks. That was the best player on defense. And so for those of those of those holding Falcons can be, a playoff team takes and tickets. The Grady Jarrett, like, the big narrative coming out of the game is to go to the bench Ritter. The big thing for me out of that game is they lost Grady Jerry. That's a difference maker up front and a difference maker

for a defense that doesn't have a lot of them. And so that injury is a big deal. But still, like, I would like the Falcons, Ritter, or Hineke. There's just no reason to manage your team this way, media-wise. Like, you're just creating headaches for yourself. Make less headache. Being a football head coach already has a lot of headaches.

Make fewer headaches for yourself. Don't do this. and also don't make me look bad, and also don't let Sheel then be like, oh, your boy, Arthur Smith, and put me next to you with this behavior. This is all about me and my podcasting experience, and it's made negative by this, so stop doing it.

I think you just gave expats an idea when you said, put me next to Arthur Smith, maybe some photoshopping opportunities. Listen, I'm not one to tell our audience what to do. Okay. Yes, you are. You do it all the time. That's true.

Everyone's calling him Captain Lou now because you didn't. That is true. I do like to tell people what to do. Yeah. So do you think was Desmond Ritter benched in the second half? Was it Desmond Ritter? Let's test him for a concussion. But even though he's cleared, Heineke's in there.

Let's not take a chance and leave high. Like, what happened in that game? I think Smith wanted to take a look at what the offense would look like with Heineke and thinks that he is the cleverest boy and no one would notice. If he was like, yeah, Desmerer has one of those concussion things I've heard about. Really? Do you really think that? Because that's something.

Yeah. That's it. I mean, yeah. I do think that Ritter got. flagged by the protocol. I don't think that's like he like gamed the protocol or anything. I do think we're going to flagged by the protocol, but I think that that Smith said, all right, well, we'll

put Heineke out there for the second half. And as a guy Brinard is clear, he's like, all right, well, we're just going to leave Heineke out there for the second half, so I want to see what looks like with Heineke. The guy who manages his running back rotation between Tyler Algier and Bejan Robinson in that way when he invested in Bejon the way that he did and then has Algear

as that sort of player is going to approach quarterbacking the same way. Like this offense that he runs, which is a derivative of the Shanahan offense. It's a QB joystick offense. It's a, you move where I tell you to move offense. He's not, he in the same thing, the same way with Kyle Shanahan, they're not going to be like, oh, no, my precious quarterback.

They're going to be like, you ruined my offense by not doing exactly what I wanted you to do. So I absolutely think that he saw a window to take a look at Heineke for a half and he took it. I also think that, yeah, on Wednesday he's going to come out and say Desmond Britter's going to be our starter. Oh, you do? Okay. After the game, they asked Heiniggy, like, what's up? And he's like, well, it's Desmond's team.

Yeah, but he's just being like a pro. and you can't come out and be like, it's my team now, baby. Did you see what I did in the second half? And he doesn't know what the coach is thinking. No one knows what the coach is thinking. So he has to say that. So I don't put too much stock into what Heinke says. If Smith comes out and says,

Ritter's healthy, what we're starting Heineke, a week after saying that people need to watch film on Ritter because it's toxic group thing, which I kind of agreed with that one at the time, for being honest. Again, birds of a feather. That's a lot of egg on the face there for Ardy.

A lot of egg in the mustache on that one. So I don't know, I think pride-wise, he might keep Ritter out there for a little bit. And I don't think that'd be a bad decision. Because I don't think Ritter is like a negative on the team. He has to get over the turnovers. And if he's going to get over them, he's got to have to play. Like that, like, ball security is going to come from being out there

and being better managing the pocket, interceptions, being up and managed game flow. Like, you've got to put them out there. If you play Hineke, I think you're going to go nine and eight and lose in the first round. If you play Ritter, I think you're to go nine and eight and lose in the first round. With Ritter, you have more of a chance to find something better, to find something that's, like, meaningful year over year. And so I think you've got to go that direction.

But who freaking knows at this point? It's an exhausting team. I'm so done talking about them. Go birds. Yeah, the timing was just so weird. Like, Ritter's had bad games previously. I mean, they scored what, six and seven points? He stuck with him.

He was loyal with him. And then after this, I mean, they had, what, four possessions in the first half or something like that. And then to make the chain. But then it's also weird to have the, oh, we noticed the concussion right at halftime. You know, it just happened to be. We noticed it right at halftime. And all right, now, Hynekke's coming out in the second half.

So I don't know what's going on there. I agree with you. We've probably committed way too much time to talking about, like I told you, a sort of boring, irrelevant four and four teams. But you're right. He does kind of make them relevant with some of these weird, vague. He could just be more straightforward and more boring and we would get a better sense of it. And just nicer.

Just don't bristle people. I will say, I don't know. Like, listen, there could be a scenario where he takes the beat writers off the record afterwards. But that's not coming through at any of the reporting. So yeah, you're proxic group think in reference to like football is is objectively funny though. It's always with coaches. Calm down. It's only football.

I always want to be like, all right, where did you hear the phrase toxic group think? And what were you reading or watching that brought you that phrase and you thought that'd be fun to use in a football context? That's always my question. It's like, who taught you that? And why do you think it applies here? Why do I have a feeling the phrase toxic group think is going to become a regular one uttered on the show for the rest of the season. FedEx boy has just got to relax

up there, okay? You can't be up there talking cash money when we can all Google and find out that your dad runs FedEx, okay? Chill out. Oh, boy. All right, I better move on. I don't want so like to get fired here. All right, let's take a break. We'll come back on extra point taken. All right, we are back on extra point taken.

All right, we'll do a little falcons more. But something actually happened this week. That's why I felt like we should talk about them. If nothing happens. Oh, it's an innocent shield. Honest Sheel. It's just because something happened. After every loss,

She asked something to say about the Falcons. After every week. That's not true. Mom's the word. That's not true. I've been going easy on them. All right. Your third point,

what do you got? The Zach Wilson trap is laid. Do not spring it. Don't you dare. This is a warning to everybody. I have seen the beginnings of it, Sheal. I have.

I will not. Wait, the Zach Wilson, what? The Zach Wilson trap has been laid. Okay, okay. Do not spring it. Do not step in. I have seen the beginnings of it.

I have seen people with legitimacy, Daniels or my NFL network, be like, Zach Wilson's playing better. Zach Wilson's improving. I will not have it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We did this last year, okay?

Last year, he stepped in, 2022, and he started playing and the Jets were winning some games. And like, oh, he had a, you know, they beat the Packers and they beat the Broncos. And he, like, only took three sacks. He didn't throw any interceptions. And Robert Saul was up at the podium being like, as so long as Zach throws the football away, when we ask him to throw the football away, we'll win.

Like, that was the bar that they had to clear. People were like, oh, Zach Wilson's turning out corner. Like, look at Zach managing the game. And then he ran to the Patriots. He threw three picks. And he ran to the Patriots again. He took 19 sacks and he got injured and then Mike White and then whatever. We've already seen this.

We know who Zach Wilson is. Absolutely, over time, the more quarterback plays, the better they get. But we understand the framework of this quarterback. We know what family he is in of quarterbacking. He is a risk-prone, turnover-prone, sack-prone, inaccurate quarterback, who occasionally pays you off with enough big plays to score, but not enough to equal the scales, right? On the J-Mis spectrum of like,

I'm either having the greatest play alive or the worst play. alive. He has too many of the worst plays alive and not enough of the greatest plays alive to justify and to attribute offensive success to him. The Jets beat the Giants with a turnover differential

of two to nothing. They had four yards per play and they punted at least ten times. They are the second team in NFL history to win a game with four or yards or less per play on offense with a turnover

differential to nothing or worse and with at least 10 puns. This was not a game in which the Jets' offense worked. This was not a game in which the Jets' passing game worked. Upcoming, Sheal, the Jets play the Chargers, which is the fourth worst defense in the league defending the pass. The week after that, they play the Raiders, which is the ninth worst defense in the league defending the past. Both of these games, or primetime games,

one is Monday night football, the other is 10 to night football. Zach Wilson is going to play in front of the country. against bad past defenses and look not terrible. And at that time, someone is going to tell you that he might be getting better. And he could be the starter for the rest of the season and the Jets are going to go to the postseason and he's the future starter after Aaron Rogers retires, whatever.

No. No. I don't believe it. I won't believe it. It's not happening. Stop believing it's happening. Don't fall for the Zach Wilson bait. I don't think he's going to play well against those bad. past defenses, and I don't think there are going to be a lot of people telling me any of those

things about Zach Wilson's future. I did not even know that this was a thing. I'll throw one more since you were throwing out some, this was a very unlikely wooden numbers. There were 242 offensive performances this season. The Jets offense if performance on Sunday against the Giants ranked 224th. The 18 teams that were worse this year, they all lost. I mean, Come on. We all watched that game. I mean, they were terrible.

Their offense stunk in that game. Shill. They were, they were, Graham Gano. I just Twitter searched. Zach Wilson is all I did. Rex Ryan on ESPN.

He's maturing right in front of our eyes. And at the biggest moment, he was at his best. Alvar Breer, Zach Wilson's growth keeps showing up when it matters most. And if you look at the AFCE standing, the judge quarterback is making a huge difference. This is a real.

What is happening? This is why you're going to get a lot. The internet. This is happening. I mean, I was ready to rip you for having a take that by your, your citing sources. So I can't even, I'm happy for Jets. It's good for Jets fans. Their season was stolen from them.

They're getting these unlikely wins. They're four and three. They have nothing to apologize for. However, we as people who are trying to evaluate these teams, I mean, come on. The Giants game, the Eagles game, the bill. I mean, they are stealing these victories at the end. And then in most cases, they have absolutely nothing to do with the quarterback and they are overcoming the quarterback's play. I mean, that's what I watched in that game.

What were they over 13 on third down or something until that last one that he converted there? Yes, he did make a couple of plays down the stretch in 99 out of 100 scenarios. He has not given that opportunity. We're talking about the Jets having lost to a Giants team quarterbacked by Tommy DeVito and Zach Wilson. No one is mentioning anything about. positive about Zach Wilson today. So I don't think I mean, that is interesting though.

You did mention those defenses coming up by Chargers. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. Schill. He has the Chargers on Monday Night Football. He's going to throw for 200 yards, a score, take three sacks, and they're going to win 15 to 11 or something disgusting. Some scorerami that you

sneer at, which, by the way, there was scorogami this week. Thank you. Everybody tweeted that at May. So I have you to thank for that. I mean, I've been tweeted left and right. At least, at least I've scored one point on like listeners gang up on one of us. And the score is 272 to 3. That's one of my points. I'm telling you that he's going to look fine against the Chargers.

And it's going to be a thing. And I just want everyone in the extra point taking umbrella to know, this is a safe space where we'll be honest with you about Zach Wilson, who like at this point is like probably like a fine backup because you can make throws and you can like. Would you even say fine? I mean, when you were talking early, I'm like, I don't even think he's a fine backup. I just a horrible.

I don't think he's a fine backup. It's not a good situation. No. He is 31st in success rate. 31st in EPA per pass by not that you need really fancy stats. You all have watched this man play football. Their offense stinks. It's 30th and 32nd.

He has been the quarterback. There were 24 combined puns, I think, in that football. They beat a team that threw for negative 9 passes. yards. Chill, chill, chill, chill. What are we talking about here? I know. It's unbelievable.

But here we are. All right, this has been your most convincing argument that I should be more online. I'm not going to be. I'm online plenty that I need to be. But I'll say not seeing those conversations, I do feel a little regret over that. All right. I am up on the extra point taken. I'm going to rapid fire some headlines here, So lack.

And I want to talk about them because it was a newsy day sort of. around the NFL. And then if we have any leftover takes, we can just fire them off here as well. Why not? We can improvise. It's a loose structure that we have on extra point taken. All right, let's get to the trade that's already happened. Giants trade Leonard Williams to the Seattle Seahawks for a 2024 second and a 2024 fifth. According to ESPN, the Giants are taking on most of Leonard Williams' 2023 salary. I think that's a nice job by the Giants. They're essentially paying for a draft pick here. They're saying, give us more draft compensation and we will pay his salary here, which I think that's good. I mean, who wants their owners to save more money? Like,

who cares about that? Williams is going to be a free agent at the end of the season. So to get a second round pick and then a day three pick for a guy who's going to be a free agent at the end of the season, honestly, if you would have asked me three days ago, what would the compensation be for Leonard Williams? I would have said it with that. No way you're getting a second round pick for a guy who's only playing half the season. So I thought that was a good job by the Giants, just knowing kind of where they are this season and as a franchise. And for the Seahawks, I get it. You want to be aggressive. I don't think I would have done that deal for a second, for a half-year rental. I don't think it's egregious. You know, they're in first place in the

NFC West. They want to add a talented defensive line. So basically, I think it's fine. I don't think I would have done it from the Seahawks perspective. From the Giants perspective, I think it's pretty much a no-brainer. What are your thoughts on the deal? I do think that the second round was what it was because the Giants are eating a lot of the cap space from it. Yes, definitely. This from Field Yates. The Giants paid Leonard Williams about $9.5 million in a signing bonus today, right? And that's why it had to be done today.

So that transaction, that change signing bonus could process by 4 p.m. You can't do it tomorrow because then you'd be too late to trade him. The Field has it as the Seahawks owing him just $650,000 for the rest of the season. So if like the, the Seahawks had to carry. that $10 million cap hit, and it was like a three and a five, I don't think anybody's like, I like, yeah, like that's full like in like a

three and a future four, like a, you know, a three and a future four like a, that would make sense for William's that like tracks. But I think that the price went up so the Zyox could keep the cap space and make sure the Giants took it, which I think adds the value to the Seahawks trade. I don't know how doable this was for them

if they weren't able to get the Giants to take the cap. And I do think like, Giants, it's very clearly good. You're not good right now. Leonard is a player who's not probably in your long-term plans as much. You don't really maximize him, send them. That's probably great. For the Seahawks, I think a little bit more than you do in terms of,

A, like the getting it done cap-wise, I don't mind sending the second too much. And then what really impressed me was like the Seahawks are one of the best defense in the league right now by a lot of metrics and against the run in particular, their first. When you watch them and when you look at their players, you're like, how? How are you doing this?

Explain yourselves. Right? oftentimes when teams are really succeeding, like they're getting great play right now of like Jaron Reed and Boya Maffei. All the times those teams won't make additions because they'll be like, yeah, we can keep doing this forever and you probably can't.

And so I'm impressed that the Seahawks, I think knew they were punching above their weight along the defensive line a little bit and said, we can still make an addition, make a move and keep this run defense working at a high level. But if we just stay with the current personnel, we're probably not going to sustain this. That's impressive self-awareness from me.

I like that the Seahawks made that, that change. And he definitely has upside. I mean, this is a guy who had, what, 11 and a half sacks a few years ago, only one and a half this year. But yeah, he could be someone who, in a month from now, I'm saying, well, I was wrong. You definitely give up. Again, I don't think it's egregious.

I think it's fine. It was a little bit more than I anticipated, but you're right. The money is the huge factor in there. Yeah. Chen and Nowuosu, who's their star outside roster, not necessarily like a household name, but a good player. Plays on injured reserve this week before the Browns game. Nuwosu, they expected

to be a season-ending surgery for him, that really blows. And so getting a guy like Leonard Williams in, like, it's not the same position, but at least you get a guy who, quote, unquote, is star talent, right? Is like up or two talent? I don't think Leonard is that dude anymore. But, like, losing to Osso was a big, big, big blow. And I think that Leonard softens that quite a bit. All right.

Next headline. Kurt Cousins officially out for the season within Achilles. You talked about the Vikings? Was it last week? Maybe two weeks ago, I can't remember at some point on one of these shows. what do you think the Vikings should do and what do you think they will do? Should they give up like a day three pick for some type of, I don't know, I was thinking maybe like an anti- Andy Dalton? Would you give up like a fourth round pick for Andy Dalton from Carolina and say, hey, let's, you know, be competitive this season and try to make the playoffs?

Or do you just go the total opposite way and say, you know what? It's not our year. Jefferson's out. We lost cousins. Anyone want DeNeal Hunter? anyone want Jordan Hicks, let's just move on and build draft capital for the future. What do you think? I think you go the opposite way. I think Questia Adolfo Menzo is their general managers about the most analytics EGM that there is in the league.

Like, you would like Howie, Andrew Barry, like he's up there. Accordingly, I would imagine that they want to go more of the long-term view in the room and say we're going to accumulate draft pace. Maybe we're going to sell a little bit of talent and we're going to be prepared for making a big swing in the 2024 draft. I also think that's the better way to do it. What does eight games of Andy do for you of Dalton? What is eight games of James do? I'd much rather potentially acquire a younger guy.

I test ballooned Trey Lance, go ahead him from the Cowboys in my column earlier this week. I know the reason I put that in there is because we know they were sniffing around him previously, so why wouldn't they do it again? Look at Trey Lance for nine games. And you're like, all right, well, Trey Lance probably isn't going to be anything good,

probably, but no one's ever looked at him for nine games in the NFL. He hasn't played that many. You actually have a chance to see something. Malik will, same thing. I'd be more inclined, same thing with the Rams to kind of go get a young guy and see what he looks like over the end of the season. You have enough young building blocks

in place offensively. Jordan Addison has looked. Nice. Justin Jefferson, T.J. Hawkinson on contract. Offensive line absolutely has some problems. But we've talked about this unit before. Brian O'Neill, as for Cleveland. There's likable talent there.

The Vikings, if let's say they get to the off season, and they're picking in the top 10 and they're sniff around the rookie quarterback class, we're going to sit down and say, this is a really good environment to develop a rookie. Kevin O'Connell's clearly got some good students,

got the stuff, and they have the wide receiver talent and the office line talent to hang. And so I wouldn't be spending resources to maybe get Andy to maybe go nine and eight to do that. I'd want to hold that fourth round pick to sweeten the pot for when I move up from 11 to 3 and I go get my guy.

It really is, yeah, their team, if they kind of go in the tank this year, it really could be a short stint here. We're talking nine, ten weeks where you have no hope, but man, if you get a quarterback in there, yeah, they've got two good tackles, they've got good wide receivers,

they've got a tight end, and the coach, yeah, Kevin O'Connellson, a good job with the offense this year. All right, this one, I don't know if this was even on your radar. Cardinals bench Josh Dobbs. Oh, yeah. This is on your radar and are preparing to start. Brown's minus eight. Clayton Tune. Browns minus eight real quick.

You watch any Clayton Tune. Put on the Clayton Toon film. Just take Browns minus 8 real quick. What is going on here? I mean, I know Dobbs isn't perfect. What were you expecting from your quarterback situation? He's been 23rd statistically success rate EPA per play. He's also run for like 260 yards.

He gives you that kind of aspect to add to your offense. I'm not saying he's great. But again, you really think Clayton Tune is going to come in and outperform him? By the way, Ben, we've talked about before. The offense has overachieved. That defense stinks. That defense is 31st in DVOA. That defense is the reason they've lost all these games more so than the offense,

which has kept them relatively competitive. So I don't get that one at all replacing Josh Dobbs with Clayton Tune. And again, we don't know when Kyler Murray will be back on the field. Gannon says right after the game on Sunday, Dobbs is starting next week. And then on Monday, he says, no, no, no, it's going to be Clayton Tune. Because of that exact interaction where it was 24 hours ago, Dobbs, because Kyle it's not ready,

and then 25 hours later it's tune, this reeks of ownership to me. Like this, this is 100% like to me feels like ownership being like, I don't want to watch Josh Jobs anymore. He's not good enough. I want to watch Clayton Tune. And he's like,

all right, I guess we're doing that then. Even if you were to want to take a look at Clayton Tune as a potential future guy for you, you wouldn't make his first start the Browns, would you? If you were in the same, football ops perspective,

we want to see what the rookie has for a few games. not giving the first game against Jim Schwartz and a Brown's defense. The young man's going to die. Like, this is not safe work environment. That's terrifying stuff. I think we see tune for exactly one game. I think Kyler starts against the Cardinals,

or against the Falcons, excuse me. To me, this is, this came from on high. This didn't come from a football perspective. And we're going to look back on it as a blip and as a nice, nice trivia note. We're going to sit back in 10 years. Remember that one Cardinals season where they started,

Josh Jobs the whole time and then Clayton tune for a game? That'll be a fun note. Yeah, I was trying to think, well, are they going to trade Josh Dobbs? Maybe that's why, but that has not happened so far here. All right, those were my headlines from Monday in the NFL. Is there anything else

you need to get off your chest before we say goodbye or are you saving it for our Friday show? Devante Adams Metropolitan Las Vegas separate the two. That's my whole agenda for the next 17 hours. 15 hours.

I agree. It is a bummer watching these great players just be on irrelevant teams, especially Devante Adams. He's, what, 30 years old? So, you know, you want to maximize this part. Oh, man, dude, we have semi-breaking news. And the moment the deadline ends, Jeremy Fowler just tweeted that Bears Corner,

Jalen Johnson has requested a trade. They've been working on an extension for a while. And Johnson was asked about it today. And he was like, I don't know, maybe we're close, maybe we're not. Apparently he wants to trade. Jalen Johnson has played some good, football this season.

Bear's Corner Jalen Johnson that's an impactful player if acquired for a contending team. I would like to see Jalen Johnson play for a real team. Bills. Bills. Shiel. The Buffalo Bills. Yes. We just decided, okay, Jalen Johnson's a bill. Let's get it done.

I'm just taking a look at literally all the teams right now. Yeah, I think the Bills are my favorite one here. Do I even have anybody else here? Lions have had some injuries there. Would they trade in division? Indivision. Probably not.

Yeah, I think that's the one. No, to see how? Would a team like the 49ers be interested in a Jalen Johnson? Oh, they're weird. I mean, well, actually, if he plays outside, you can kick Demeter or Lenore into the slot and then move off Isaiah Oliver. Oliver's been weird.

He's been, like, good at stuff, and then he also will blow a critical coverage or have a critical interception, or critical penalty, excuse me. That matters are possible. then I was trying to get an edge off somebody. That's what that's the word on the street. That's what the rumors. That's what the streets are saying, She'll.

Jalen Johnson is a Buffalo Bill. I'm obsessed with Jaylon Johnson, Buffalo Bill. Hearding here first. Action Pointeagan. If you were listening to this, know that we actually, this is sincere. When James Johnson's a bill tomorrow, we didn't doctor the footage, we called it. And by we, I mean, Sheel.

This is 12.31 a.m. Eastern time Tuesday. All right, let's, we better go get this posted. Because we're going to be back. If any of these trades actually happen, then we all get to jump on a podcast and talk about it then. Let's get out of here. All right. Thank you to Ben Solac.

Thank you to Christopher Sutton for producing. Thank you to Eduardo Ocampo for the video production. Additional production supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna, Ramgopal. Next episode will probably be trade deadline related. If nothing happens and it's boring, boo, that would suck. But if that happens, then Nora and Stephen will be back with dual threat this week. And Solek and I will be back on Friday. All right.

Thanks to everyone for listening. Have a great week. We'll talk to you soon. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Fanduel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit Fandul.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia. Call 1-800-nextap to 533442 in Arizona, 1888-78-9-7-7-7. or visit CCPG.org slash chat in Connecticut,

1,8009 with it in Indiana, 1,800 522470470, or visit KSgamblinghelp.com in Kansas, 18777770 stop in Louisiana, visit MD gamblinghelp.org in Maryland, visit 1,800 gambler.net in West Virginia, or call 1,800522470. In Wyoming, Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline, MA.org, or call 800327. 50-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-8-Hope-N-Y or text HopeNY in New York.