The Ringer NFL Show - Luke Kuechly’s Retirement, LSU’s Joe Brady to the Panthers, and the Conference Championships | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: January 16, 2020

At 28 years old, the league’s best linebacker, Luke Kuechly, has retired. Meanwhile, the open coaching positions are getting filled, with Kevin Stefanski headed to the Browns and LSU offensive coordinator Joe Brady heading to Carolina (2:35). Then we preview the Titans-Chiefs and Packers-49ers conference championships matchups (28:30). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's Liz Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. This week, to celebrate the 100th episode of The Rewatchables podcast, Quentin Tarrantino returns for the third and final movie in his three-part series with us. In the final episode, Bill Simmons and Sean Fennacy discussed with Quentin one of his favorite movies, the 1990 crime thriller King of New York. Make sure to check out this special episode and follow at the Rewatchables on Twitter for highlights of all 100 episodes. This is the Ringer NFL show. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin. I think of everybody. Doing good, right for this weekend's games. I am very ready for this weekend's games.

I leave for San Francisco tomorrow morning. We're recording this on a Wednesday. I'm very much looking forward to both of these games. It's a great weekend in football. I tend to enjoy divisional weekend better just because there are four games and you get it over two days, but it's hard to beat championship Sunday, especially when you get to go to one of them.

They're my favorite football games to attend NFL games because it's the last game of meaning and it has the most meaning where you're actually in someone's stadium. Also, I just, while the games are unfolding, I'm thinking about how much it changes everybody's legacy, even though it's so stupid for one game to change legacies, that's just sort of how this works from a narrative perspective. It's a narrative league. And so if Mahomes and Reid win during this game, then everything changes for them. If Mike Vrable wins, it changes Mike Vrabel's narrative.

And Bill Belichick's coaching tree narrative. It changes everything for Mike Vrable if he wins. That's very true. Let me tell you something. That cutting off thing has taken on life of its own. He didn't say he would if they won. He said he would do it if it ensured that they would. So the two options are he's already done it.

And this is all playing out because of it or he's just not going to do it. Mike Frable has made a deal with some, the devil or some other higher power in order to get a Super Bowl. Right. Could you imagine if the chiefs found out that that was happening? And they just said, what do we do? We have two days. All right. So, yeah, I...

Game planning against God. Yeah, I really enjoy... I don't think God is who you talk to for that kind of deal. That's probably true. I really enjoy just the drama of it all and how much lives can change based on who wins and loses on these two games on Sunday. Yeah, just thinking about the fact that these teams

will be in the Super Bowl, and you just think about what the Super Bowl is in Super Bowl week, and it just has so many implications. It really gives you an entire two weeks to kind of sit and marinate on what it's going to mean. for any of these guys if they can win one. All right. We are going to start, though, not with the NFC champion or the championship games.

We're going to start with some news that broke late last night. Luke Keekly is retiring from the NFL. I read your piece about it today. I thought it was spot on. Why don't you just walk me through kind of your initial thoughts after you heard the news? Yeah. Luke Keekley is a Hall of Famer. He is a guy who in an era where you're not supposed to dominate the middle of the field because of new athletes, because of rule changes, because of offensive schemes,

he made life harder for offenses. And that's increasingly rare. This was a fast era he was in, and he was as fast as the era. He led all linebackers in interceptions, in past breakups, in tackles, obviously. He went against his era, and it was really interesting to watch.

He's the type of player, Bruce Feldman, once reported that Boston College got him because recruiters didn't like his look. He wore glasses and looked nerdy, and they didn't notice what a badass he was underneath that look. And he is one of the best defenders of his air full stop. So now we bring in the retirement aspect of it all. This is a blow to the sport, quite frankly, that's already lost Rob Gunkowski and Andrew Luck in the last calendar year. But from his perspective, this was the only decision to make. He's had multiple recorded concussions. He didn't feel like he could play as

fast and physical as he would like and as he has for the past eight years. And that's the heart of the matter is he played fast and physical, as he said. And he thinks that, you know, that type of play, and this is me talking, is conducive to injury. And he couldn't keep doing it. I understand that. The middle of the NFL field is the most dangerous place in sports, I would say. I mean, it's amazing to me. I've talked about this before. But in George Pumpton's book, Paper Lion, he, he quotes Raymond Barry, the great receiver, who said that in his career, he went over the middle of the field,

which is called the pit in the book. It was called the pit because of just how hellish it was to go over the middle of the field. He went in that area once, in his entire Hall of Fame career, once. And now guys do it all the time. And that means violence, that means physicality,

that means huge hits. And Luke Kikley was there the whole time. And I think that that takes a toll on you. So from Luke Kikley's perspective, This was a decision to make. No questioning it. He is the type of player, you know, famously didn't have cable for four years and wanted to watch film. Famously was thrown out of the facility on Christmas Eve because he wanted to watch film.

I tried to do a personality thing on him a couple years ago in the same way I'd done something for Cam or Josh Norman or Greg Olson on the Panthers. And the more you talk to him, the more you realized it was pretty much just football for him. So this is a guy who's going to find a way to bring value to the game as a coach. offensive coordinator, front office guy, media, whatever, but this had to be the decision. And I think you can only respect it. Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, he's a guy again that has made a lot of money. And I think it's hard to find sweeping trends when it comes to something like this.

You know, I don't know if there's a lot to be taken away from the position or things like that because guys that have walked away have typically been guys that have made a decent amount of money. I mean, these are guys that have cashed in. They're stars. You know, it's Patrick Willis was a star. he made a ton of money. Navar Bowman was a star. Rob Grunckelsy was a star. These are guys that had to kind of grind away at careers.

They had huge paydays with their second contracts. And it's easier to walk away at 28 when you've made $63 million. I don't know if we're going to see guys that are kind of mid-tier veterans make choices like this because they didn't necessarily make life-changing amounts of money in the way that these guys have. Chris Borland. Chris Borland stepped away after one year. Chris Borland stepped away. That's a good one. Yes. He stepped away very early. I also think that the one thing I would take away from it, if we're trying to think of a big picture conversation here, is position because we have seen a lot of linebackers do it.

Bowman, Willis, Keeckley. All different, by the way. Bowman, Willis was feet, Kikley's concussion. Bowman was a number of different things. So I think that the through line is they got hurt. It wasn't all the same injury. Not at all. But I do think there's a level of physicality to that position

that's different than most position. because you're having to hit offensive linemen a lot in the run game, things like that. You're taking on blocks and you're much smaller than them. You're taking a ton of punishment. The impact on some of these hits is absolutely huge. I mean, you watched the highlights yesterday of Luke Keekly and just, God, with a full head of steam, he's just crushing guys. That probably takes a toll on you.

Luke Keekly is not a huge person. If you stand next to Luke Keekly, it's incredible that he's one of the greatest football players of the last decade. I remember being at a party in Houston with Luke Keekley during Super Bowl week, and he was there to like 1 a.m. just playing bags, drinking water. And he just looked like a dude at the party. I mean, that's what Luke Keekly was. He's just a guy who happened to be incredible at football for a lot of different reasons. And it's not surprising that somebody with that constitution would not want to risk his long-term health and not want to keep doing this when it's such a physical toll on you. I remember purposely not going to that party. I met you later at a Mexican restaurant. Was it later or earlier? It was later, I believe.

I believe you went early. Let's not relitigate the Houston Super Bowl, but I believe you met me later. I did see you at a Mexican restaurant, but I can't remember if it was before or after the party. Sounds like you weren't drinking water with Luke Kikley. Because I think I was at the party pretty late, so I'm not sure I could be eating after that.

Did you not? Maybe you went early and then late. I think that may have been it. Interesting. I'm not sure that happened, but that's totally fun. think it might have. It's coming back to me. It's neither here nor there. Okay. I will just Luke Keekly, the football player very quickly. I remember talking to Al Holcomb a couple years ago, who was

the linebacker's coach in Carolina when Keekly was there for a while and just talking about the process of observing Luke Keekly watch film and the stuff he'd pick up on all those little things. I can't remember. And there have been linebackers that have been almost as good as Luke Keekly or as good as Luke Keakley, whether it was Willis, somebody else. Bobby Wagner. Yeah, Bobby Wagner is a fantastic player. They're different, but I mean, amazing. But just watching Kekley observe the game, figure out the game. Remember that play against Dallas?

I think it was on Thanksgiving where he just called out the play right before it happened and then returned an interception for a touchdown. I mean, just that kind of stuff. And you hear so many stories about people that he would just call out the play as consistent before they happened. And apparently he would just pick up on little tiny ticks, whether it was body language or formation or all of this stuff that other people just didn't understand. he solved the game in a way few defenders have, whether that's Ed Reed,

you know, guys like that that just clearly see things on a completely different plane. That was Luke Keekley, and I'm going to miss watching him play. It reminds me, in basketball, it's much easier to understand what the other team is doing. I remember Shane Battier saying that he could run every team's offense if you wanted to on about an hour's notice, right? Because you just sort of understand what other teams are doing. In football, it's harder. There are guys who understand exactly what you said. Ed Reed is one of these guys who understands every single offense.

there are probably less than 15 guys who I think are elite elite at understanding what every single team wants to do at all times. You know, famously, Sean Lee is like that. And I think Seattle has a handful of these guys. But Luke Kikley is in that category. He was, he just understood all the time what offenses wanted to do and he made them pay. And he was fast and athletic enough. But also, he was made.

more fast and athletic by the fact that he just had these instincts and knew exactly what was going to happen on a given play. So it was a total package. He was incredible and it's a blow for the sport that he will not be playing anymore. It's a blow, quite frankly, for the Panthers. You know, he was still one of the top graded linebackers by PFF this year. It wasn't like he was going downhill. It wasn't like kind of an Andrew Luck situation where he was going to, you know, not be able to return the field had he chose to play. This was just he had too many concocts and he decided that he couldn't play the way he normally played. And I think that that's a really interesting thing.

And I don't necessarily know if it's going to be a trend because, again, this is going to be a case-by-case thing. But I think we're seeing guys make $40, $50, $60 million, as Keeley has. Willis made $40. Luck made $100 and saying, you know what? Did the second contract thing, played eight years, borderline Canton in some of these situations, lock for Canton in some of these situations, and they'll take their money and go home. Yeah, I definitely think that's part of it. It's just these guys that are stars and really cash in on that second deal as the cap exploded in this CBA, all of that stuff.

So I think there are a lot of elements to consider here. I'm not sure how often it'll happen, but it's definitely happening more often. So let's stay with Carolina very quickly. Some coordinator news. The Panthers hired Joe Brady, which seemed like that was going to happen. Somebody was going to take a run at him. You watch that national championship game. It's hard to see him not getting a job in the NFL.

Is this interesting to you? Are you surprised that, I mean, I think, I totally agree. The staff they're assembling, I think it intrigues me. It definitely does. So knowing what we know about the Matt Rule contract, my impression is that this is probably extremely lucrative for Mr. Joe Brady, so congratulations. I'm a little bit, a little bit confused is the wrong word. I'm a little bit intrigued by the destination in the sense that the quarterback situation is

not resolved and is Cam coming back. I'm sure he knows what the situation is going to be. But is Cam coming back? Is he going to try to return to health? Are they going to roll the dice with one of the guys already on the roster that we saw last year? Whether it's Kyle Allen or whatever, Hill Greer, or is it going to be a third way, which is try to get someone in the top ten of the draft, or trade up to get a two.

I mean, they're picking behind the dolphins, so that's all you need to know. They would have to give considerable draft capital for that. I think Joe Brady, the way the sport is going, if Joe Brady lights it up in Carolina at age 30, he can be a head coach at 31. And maybe there's a situation. Sean McVeigh was. Yeah, exactly.

And so the question is whether or not he's going to have the infrastructure to light it up, whether he's going to have the quarterback, whether they're going to be able to get their program in place. I don't know the answer to that. I actually have seen, obviously, we've seen what Joe Brady's done this year. He's done a very nice job.

We've seen what Matt Ruhl's done in the past. But I think that that's probably the calculus he's making is you go here one year, and then owner takes a chance of me the next year. There's going to be an incredible quarterback group in 2021, led by Trevor Lawrence

and a handful of other guys. And I think that he is probably going to be in position to make a leap, go to a place with a nice quarterback, and set himself up. That all depends on his ability to light it up in 2020. And I am going to make no judgments on that

until September, quite frankly. Yeah, I'm curious to see what the offense looks like. I loved watching that LSU offense, the few games I did, Catch. Did you watch the national championship game? Yes, I did. The LSU is good. Yeah, I mean, it's really fun.

They do a lot of cool stuff. Some of the stuff he does reminds me what Andy Reid does. There's a lot of running backs in the flat in order to create some conflict with flat defenders and pulling guys in and really turning that into like a four by one set when he does that. I don't know how often he'll be able to do that in the NFL because LSU just ran so many empty protections that just aren't sustainable in the NFL. You can't do that against NFL.

offensive lines. But he seems like a very smart guy. You know, he comes from a background with a ton of NFL experience, not a ton, but enough NFL experience. He worked with Sean Payton and he worked with the Saints. So it just seems like he's somebody that can succeed. It's an intriguing staff because rule doesn't really have a system. He ran different offenses in Temple and at Baylor from everything that I've read. So now you come in with a guy, now you bring in a guy that has a pretty established thing. This is what he likes to do. So I'll be curious to see what their offense looks like. And yeah, we'll see what happens with the camp thing. It just seems like. the smartest thing for them to do is move on from him and just tear it down for a year and try

to get the number one pick. Move on from Cam? Yeah. Oh, yeah. If you want to tank and try to get Trevor Lawrence, that's the move. That's what I'm saying. If you really want to start over, why keep Camer out and win seven games? I think Cam Newton's probably the best option for their team next year if they want to win, but I'm not sure how many games you want to win next year. So I think the tanking question is really interesting because I think that Trevor Lawrence is a guy worth tanking for to where if you're, I don't know, the Redskins or the Panthers

or a handful of other teams, my only concern, the Jaguars, my only concern is whether or not other teams are going to tank and you're going to get bangled. You know, you have Justin Fields and Trevor Lawrence. Justin Fields is a nice consolation prize if you pick second. But I, I don't know. I mean, if I was an owner and I was coaching a bad team, I'd probably say, hey, why don't we do some experimenting this year. I feel like, you know, the Trevor Lawrence thing, obviously that's the ultimate goal. And I do think that no matter what happens with him, he'll probably be the number one pick. But to me, it's more about just trying to position yourself near the top of the draft.

Because who knows what's going to happen? Joe Burrow wasn't going to be the number one pick until two months ago. So, and if Tua were healthy, I mean, it would be a real, I assume it would be a real discussion. I mean, I don't know what the hypothetical would be. And if you're the dolphins and you want Tua, you may be able to get him at five. And you did that because even if you didn't get the number one pick, you tore it down enough to put yourself in a position to get a quarterback.

I think that's the smart thing. I probably get out tanked next year, but I still think it's probably worth doing some sort of tear down because we've seen having a top 10 pick as helpful. I hate the Patrick Sartan is going to be draft eligible next year. Patrick Stain the second. I hate it. I mean, Randy Moss's kid was playing in that game.

I'm not ready for Patrick Sartan Jr. Yeah. It's a little different. I also, do you know that Vernon Carey's son is a top basketball prospect? I did not know that. Why would I possibly know that? Well, I mean, he's, I don't know. He's good.

He plays for Duke. I did not know that. I didn't know that was Vernon Carey's son. Vernon Carey Jr. Wow. I hate it. I hate the March of Time. All right.

Let's move on to probably the biggest hiring news of the week. We already talked about the Kevin Stefansky Hire on Sunday's show very briefly. He had his introductory. press conference yesterday. Pretty much the type of stuff you'd expect from an introductory press conference, wore an orange tie, said the right things, said smart things about analytics, which I assume both of us expected him to do. One of the comments he made, though, was about a head coach's obligation to look for

minority assistance in order to kind of propel minority coaches forward in the NFL. We've gone through another coaching cycle. Five coaches were hired in this cycle. Four of them were white. Ron Rivera was the only minority coach that was hired. We've seen a lot of black coaches lose their jobs in recent years. We've seen none of them get jobs over the last couple years. This is a conversation that people have had for the last few seasons about the legitimacy

of the Rooney Rule, whether it's useful, what needs to change? In your mind, what are the tangible steps that either the League or people within the league can take to try to solve this at least a little bit? I don't know. I've seen some of the proposals to tweak the Rooney Rule or whatever, but this comes down to ownership and their weird ideas of who a good head coach is. And last year we saw it where everybody who got a Bud Light line with Sean McVeigh got a head coaching job.

And then the Dolphins went against that trend. They hired a defensive coach and they hired an African American and it was Brian Flores. And he might end up being one of the best of the cycle because I don't think there's a lot of guys who would have won games with the dolphins like Brian Flores yet. I sat down with Brian Flores in December. I really like him. I think he is a really good coach. I don't know when I think about the other hires in that cycle,

I don't know what owners were thinking, hiring some guys over Brian Flores. And I think that we will see some of that this year where there will be some head scratching stuff and we'll say, wait a second, why did Eric Bian and me get passed over again? Why is Marvin Lewis? And this is interesting to me because you and I, especially me,

one of my corners is that Marvin Lewis is a really freaking good coach. And he built up a Bengals team that was an absolute joke, Nobody remembers this because it was so long ago. But that was a wasteland. And he got there and he built a system and he built a perennial playoff team. He didn't win a playoff game. So he became something of a joke,

which I think is unfortunate. Andy Dalton was his quarterback and he made it work. They could have been, I mean, you wrote a lot of words about this in your brief time in Sports Illustrated. But, you know, Andy Dalton was an MVP candidate and the Bengals were a legitimate an AFC candidate until an injury in 2015.

Is that right? Yeah, 2015. And yet, because he took the Bengals from a wasteland to good, and meanwhile, Mike McCarthy went from having the greatest quarterback of all time won a super role with him and then a whole lot of mediocrity, when Marvin Lewis interviewed for the Cowboys job, it was seen as a laughing matter. And when Mike McCarthy did, it was seen as a heady move. and I don't understand the perception of that.

Marvin Lewis is, I think, probably a better coach than Mike McCarthy. Are you in agreement with that? Yeah, I'd say he probably is. Listen, I don't know, because it's all in a vacuum. What I do know is if Mike McCarthy took over the Cincinnati Bengals in 20 years ago, he would not have had the success Marvin Lewis did. That was an unbelievable building experience. Why did Jim Caldwell get fired?

And then Matt Patricia, for doing a steady job with the Detroit Lions. and then Matt Patricia turns that entire franchise into Chernobyl, and everything is fine. The Jim Caldwell thing is a huge issue. So Jim Caldwell, I do want to say, so Jim Caldwell was on the Dolphin staff and stepped away for health reasons, and he's been in the mix of some of his offensive coordinator jobs. I do think Jim Caldwell, if he does a nice job, and I'm sure he will,

with whatever staff he gets on to this year as an assistant, he should be in the mix next year. and then Eric B. Enemy has to be in the mix next year. I just, I think that these are just some, I think that NFL owners are, just don't know what they're looking for. They don't know how we've seen many times. They just don't know how to identify good coaches. And I hope that changes.

It's hard, you know, this is a problem on so many levels. And I don't think the issue is a team picking Kevin Stefansky over Eric B. Enemy. It's that there are so few, coaches like Eric B. Enemy that are even getting opportunities. I mean, it's just these, it's not an individual choice thing. I mean, you look at, I think the one of the problems and the one of the things that frustrates black coaches the most and people, the guys that I've talked to, is just that the standards are constantly changing. There are so, there's no consistency about

what teams are looking for. So there's no way to understand how to position yourself to be the best candidate possible to get those jobs. Last year, it made sense that there were mostly white coaches hired because they were hiring offensive coaches. And there are so few black assistants in play calling and quarterback coaching jobs. Again, that's a problem in of itself. Now, there are so many teams hiring CEO types and non-offensive coaches and black coaches still can't get a look. It's just one of those things where the goalposts continued to move. I remember talking to Harold Harold Goodwin this summer, who's the offensive line coach for the books. And we were just discussing how the only way to get a head coaching job now in his mind was to coach quarterbacks.

And now even that's not true. So it just seems like there's so few avenues for these guys to get even looks at these jobs. And I can understand why they're frustrated about it. You know, I did a story a couple weeks ago on Deshaun Watson and what was dubbed the Black quarterback club, which was a camp last summer. Watson was there. Warren Moon was there to give advice. Justin Fields, the aforementioned Justin Fields was there.

Jalen Hertz was there. And the guy who set it up, Skadam Quincy Avery, who is Deshawn Watson's private coach. And essentially he set it up because he realized that because of some racist instance he had seen or on social media,

that kind of thing, or had heard about, he realized that the system is broken in so much that people in positions of power just were not comfortable with black quarterbacks at the high school level or the middle school level.

systematic and how many things needed to change and what the support system is. This has to start at the lower levels and work its way up. And it also has to start in the NFL next year. I mean, it is systematic that African American coaches are not getting chances, not at the high school level like they should, not at the college level like they should, not at the NFL level like they should. It is every level of football. And all that's been happening for the the past is the NFL's 100th season and all that's been happening

is the coach's son gets hired. I'm not saying that I've never even met Adam Zimmer, but Adam Zimmer has become the top candidate for the Vikings defensive coordinator job

all of a sudden. Wow, what a coincidence. You know, like I, you know, the Kirk Ference's kid. I remember there was a whole thing. They interviewed, they interviewed 100 candidates

and oh my God, Kirk Ference's kid ended up being Kirk Ferrence's assistant. What are the odds? How do you get that job? I mean, that's the problem. That's the systematic problem, is nepotism and that there's, when there's a good entry-level job available, it goes to somebody's kid.

I don't know, I don't know how you fix that. Nepotism is so rampant in football, but I don't even know where you began, except to just whatever you're doing wrong, stop doing it right now. And if you're an owner, if you're an owner and you're looking at your staff and you're saying, wait, why, why are we just hiring people's kids or why are we hiring this guy who's recommended from somebody else who's just your buddy's friend or your buddy's son or your buddy's nephew or whatever it is? Why aren't we trying to find the best people we can fill? And I fill the staff with. And I understand the necessity to fill the staff quickly and oh, you don't have that much time to scout the college ranks or whatever it is. But, man, these head coaches get paid $7, $8 million a year.

Do some research and find some good coaches who aren't your buddy's nephew. And that's the thing. You saw Brenson Buckner get fired from the Raiders yesterday. He's a very respected head coach. He did a great job with the Cardinals' defensive line when he was there for several years. And they just fired him to hire Rod Marinelli. That's just what they did. It's like, okay, good.

It just, I mean, because Rod Marinelli's buddies with John Gruden and now he's available, Brenton Buckner loses his job, even though he did what I think is a pretty damn good job with a talentless Raiders front last year. And the thing that I feel like guys are getting so frustrated by is that there used to be, again, there's an idea of how this happened. And if you look at Kevin Stefansky's career, I think it's a great example. Kevin Stefanski's been with the, was with the Vikings for 14 years, okay? He came in as just an assistant to the head coach.

He was a tight ends coach. He was a running backs coach, and then they let him coach quarterbacks. One of the things when it came to these offensive coaching jobs that some people were talking about was, well, there aren't many black quarterback coaches because there just haven't been that many black quarterbacks historically. That's just not the case. That's not why this is happening. Do you know who never played quarterback at any sort of high level? Kyle Shanahan. Guess who else didn't? Sean McVeigh. Kevin Stefansky was a defensive back at Penn. He never played quarterback, but he got a chance to coach quarterbacks eventually. It's just a lack of opportunity when the resumes for so many

of these guys looks the same. And that is the most frustrating part. I think, that when people say the most qualified candidates should get these jobs, they absolutely should. But the most qualified candidates aren't getting the jobs three levels lower than that. And that's where the problem starts. It starts with ownership telling their GMs and then their head coaches to stop screwing up their staffs. And hiring the guy they know or the guy they know son. It's just the idea, the Eric Bianney thing, again, it's the same sort of idea where you look at the resumes. They're the same. One guy doesn't have a job and the other one does. And the excuses

trotted out for Eric B. Enemy, all of these, he doesn't call plays. Neither did Doug Peterson. Matt Nagy called plays for like four games at the end of that last season before he was hired. They are no different than Eric B. Enemy. They're not. They had some experience playing quarterback, but as we've seen, who cares? That doesn't matter. That doesn't make you a good play caller. Andy Reed started his career as an offensive line coach in college. When he was the quarterback, coach in Green Bay, but he never called plays before we got hired in Philadelphia. That stuff is not that important. There's so many different directions these things come from.

It's about finding guys that probably know how to build a program, how to construct an offense more than anything. And I guarantee you, Eric B. Enemy knows how to do that. Guys that had his job and had less success at his job than the two guys before him got head coaching jobs and he cannot. That is a problem. It's ridiculous. this.

All right. Let's move on. Let's get to the games here. The Titans at the Chiefs, a game you will be attending on Sunday. What is your number one thing you were looking for in this game? Well, Derek Henry has like 1,300 yards in the past eight games. It's probably a good place to start.

So we're going to need some run defense at a Kansas City, or else that's just going to continue. I'm looking, I'm intrigued by this matchup. Is it as amazing as it could have been? if it were Belichick against Mahomes or Lamar Jackson against Mahomes or Lamar Jackson against Will Belichick. No, but I think that it is intriguing in its own way. As we said, there's a lot of legacies at stake. It's Andy Reid in the championship game again.

It's Patrick Mahomes, who is the best passer in football on the verge of his first Super Bowl. It's Derek Henry, who is single-handedly reshaping the running back value conversation by being better than any running back in a long time. and I just I'm I'm I'm I want to see my number one thing here is Patrick Mahomes and his ability to just completely take over the game with every throw from every position to every player

against this Titans defense and and how many points he can put up I was talking to we were discussing coverage this week with Ben with Ben Cuxman and Meg just from my editors and there Ben was asking you know how would you defend the chiefs would you want to like write about that I was like if I knew how to do that I would be making a million five as somebody's defensive coordinator. I have no idea.

There's no good answer right now. And that's the problem with this team. When you look back over the last two years, when Mahomes has been 100%, no one's ever stopped them. They haven't slowed them down. Even in the NFC championship game last year, the only reason they lost

is because they didn't have the ball at the end. They are so difficult to plan for. And I think the only way you can really get after them, If you're looking at the weaknesses of that Chief's offense, it's on the interior of the offensive line. The Patriots did a great job last season with a lot of stunts, a lot of twists, trying to get after that group inside. I still think that's the weakest part of their offensive roster.

So can Jarrell Casey have a big game the same way he did against the Ravens last week where they're moving him around a lot? Can the interior of that Titans past rush and that defensive line make some noise and get after Mahomes? because if they can't, I think it's going to be a serious problem. I went back and I watched the game from earlier this year this morning, and they did a lot of stuff. They did not do what the Texans did last week,

where they're sitting in man covers and saying, we're going to guard you this way. They're rotating safeties. They're starting with one high. They're going to two high. They're trying to confuse him. But when you can't get after him, it doesn't matter. Somebody is going to sit into his own and he's just going to make easy completions,

and that's what happened last time they played. So I'm not sure they're going to be able to slow them down. I think it's going to have to be a shootout in the same way it was when the Titans beat them earlier this season. Right. So the Texans also beat the Chiefs earlier this year. And 3532, and this is a different game. So here's the thing with Patrick Mahomes is that it is impossible to defend a perfectly thrown pass. And my guess is there's no metrics on this, but Patrick Holmes probably throws more perfect passes than just about anybody. And I think that the way to beat the Chiefs is, A, hope the defense is,

is not good, which that is increasingly unlikely, having seen their performance in December, and then get really lucky. The Texans, at the end of the day, did go up 24 points. They just screwed it up from there, and Bill O'Brien certainly helped. And there were a lot of factors that went into that loss. I keep thinking about the Patrick Dottry tweet about how only Bill O'Brien could turn a 24-point lead into a career-ending event. Like, that's, that, there's a lot that goes into it, and Bill O'Brien certainly helped. But you're going to need some breaks. I mean, that was the thing, and that's the thing that Tennessee got against Baltimore, even though they played Baltimore really well, and they bullied them, as we've talked about on the last show. They still did

get some breaks. Some fourth down conversions didn't go Baltimore's way, the turnover luck. I mean, in order to win this game, Tennessee will need some luck. They'll need a Mahomes who's not just in total John Wick mode, and they'll need a defense that isn't going to create turnovers. I think the Chiefs probably win this game by 10 points, but I also said that about the Ravens last week, and these Titans are hot. Yeah, I think it's going to be really difficult to slow them down. I feel like Henry has to have a huge game. He did last time they played.

He had almost 200, I think, at 180 yards. Mike Pennell didn't play in that game, though, and the Chiefs are run defense has gotten much better. They actually have pretty solid run defenders up front. Yeah, they gave up. five yards per carry on on on the season and I think that I'm looking at their numbers here gave up 100 yards to the bears and chargers at the end of the season gave up 94 last week but it's nothing just outrageous I mean they did give up 225 to tennessee in november but as we

talked about the defenses has changed quite a bit since then yeah their defenders up front are pretty good against the run you know nandi's pretty good chris jones if he plays in this game which i think is a big question and uh mike pennel's a good run defender as well those guys are not pass rushers. You know, their defensive line on the interior is built to stop the run. The linebackers are where it becomes a problem. You know, Hitchens is not very good. That's where they struggle.

Reglin's okay. But yeah, they struggle. Their linebackers do struggle against the run. And I think that the Texan or the Titans best hope in this game is to continue running the ball with the efficiency that they have. I don't think they'll be able to run it 30 times and throw it 15 and win this game. I just don't, I think they'll need more points than that. But I do think they need to keep grinding it out and

having Henry rip off six yards every time he touches it. I know that's easier said than done, but their offensive line is destroying people right now. And I do think they should lean on that group because it might be the strength of this entire team. I mean, the way that Taylor Luan and Roger Saffold are playing right now, they're getting movement on people that you just don't see very often. Ben Jones has had a really nice season at center. That group needs to dominate for them to win this game. But I also think they need to hit some huge boys. I mean, they have Absolutely need two, three, four over the top shots. We're going to need more than 100 yards from Ryan Tannahill.

That's my recommendation is get more than 100 yards from Ryan Tannahill. But beyond that, you know, you mentioned Chris Jones. Chris Jones, because it was a late scratch because he did go out for warm-ups and then was deemed inactive, it's just an injury that no one talks about. But, man, he really, he is really important to them. And I actually, as someone who picked the chiefs, started to worry a little bit when I saw that injury and you're going to want Chris Jones against Derek Henry. My advice. Absolutely. And he's their best pass rusher. I know Frank Clark had three sacks last week, but he's getting a lot of

sacks late and downs. He's been pretty good over the second half of the season, but he hasn't been a world-wrecking force this year. So I think that if they can slow down the pass rush, if Jones doesn't play especially, and they can throw the ball a little bit, they'll have a chance. I think it's the type of game, the type of game we saw last when they won. It's not, 400 yards from Ryan Tanhill, but it's 19 throws for 180 yards. It's efficiency. It's big plays. And it's a lot of Derek Henry.

I think that recipe is what they need to follow again. Yep. I'm with you. I also think that no matter what, I have tremendous respect for John Robinson's team building, Mike Frable's coaching, Ryan Tanahill. This is a, this run has made me, I respected Vrable and Robinson before this. But this is the way they've been able to go through the Patriots and the Ravens. has been unbelievable.

And even if it ends this weekend, you can't be mad at it. I would guess it does end this weekend. Yeah, we thought that last week, too. We're just going to keep picking. I think it probably does. I just think that the Chiefs are so hard to defend. And I'm just not sure that there's a route for them to do this.

I think it would have to be a really high-scoring game. And I just think that the Chiefs win that sort of game this time around. All right, let's move on NFC Championship game. I will be in Santa Clara for this. This is another rematch. two teams that played earlier this year was a blowout. The Niners absolutely destroyed the Packers. Is there any reason you think this game will be different?

No, I don't. I think that the Niners will win this quite comfortably. I think that the Packers, so the Packers did a nice job by getting here, but I just think that one through 53 of the Niners have a better roster. They have little tiny advantages. Actually, I did a hit with Tim Kawakami earlier today, and he asked me about this,

and he said, how did the Niners win this game? And I said, well, actually, I don't think it's going to be, there's going to be no shorthand for this game. It's not going to be the George Kittle game or the Debo Samuel game or the Jimmy Garoppolo game or the D.4 game. It's just going to be the Niners being a little bit better at everything. And that's sort of where I see this going. It's not, remember, the Vikings were the best team in the NFL against defending the

tight end. The Packers are not. So I think there'll be a little more kiddle in the passing game or just Kittle destroying people in the running game again. I still think that you can get matchup. against Kevin King's and maybe there's some outside receiving there as well. I just, you know, this is kind of, I don't know, 30 to 30 to 20 kind of deal. I think they're going to have a hard time slowing down the Niners because I think

that Kyle Shanahan is excellent at understanding where he has to go with the ball. And that's Kevin King is exactly right. You watch that last game they played. They picked on him a lot. They want him having to move on in breaking routes. They want to put him in space, whether that was, it was Sanders, it was Samuel on George Kale. long touchdown. Kevin King was the victim on that as well. It's actually funny. I was watching back

with both those games or watching these offenses this morning. The George Kettle touchdown against the Packers is very similar to the one that Khalif Raymond scored against the Ravens last week. It's essentially the same play with a different position and a different formation. Their offenses are all pretty similar. I mean, all these guys come from a similar tree when you think about LaFleur and then Arthur, Arthur Smith. because obviously that was the floor's offense last year in shanahan so a lot of these plays look similar which is kind of interesting but i do think they're going to go after king i think that kiddle had a monster game i have no reason to think he won't again i do think the packers are going to need to keep up in this game i think they'll have a better chance than they did last time because bologga did not play last week or last time and nick bosa had a huge game alex light was the back up right tackle in that game and not rogers just had absolutely no chance and absolutely no time so if their offensive line can play a little bit better I think that's going to go a long way

and the Niners being able to move the ball. Yeah. I mean, that's... Excuse me, the Packers. Yeah. Sorry. Are there any advantages for the Packers in this game? Not especially.

I think that it's... When you're an underdog, you need a couple huge plays to go your way. Do they have a better offensive line? The Packers have a better offensive line than the Niners. Yeah. But I don't know if the Packers...

No, they don't have a better offence of line. Right. I know what you're saying. You don't know if they have a better offensive line than the Niners' defensive line. Exactly. I'm just talking about it. personnel-wise, what's the edge?

And I think the only edge I can think of is that. I think you could argue that the Packers, the Packers pass rush against the 49ers' offensive line, I think, can be an advantage for them. When I say you need a couple of game swinging plays, I mean, this is a Zadarius Smith, strip sack sort of game. They're going to need to dominate in small ways

with the elite talented players that they have because they don't, just a complete roster basis, they're not as good. So they're going to need the pass rush to make a couple huge plays. They're going to need a turnover here and there, and they're going to need Devante Adams to do some crazy stuff. I don't know if all of that is possible. Yeah.

I mean, that's exactly right. It has to be Zadaria Smith gets in the backfield, hits Jimmy Gropolo, and they score a touchdown, and then it just steam rolls from there. It has to be something like that. It has to be almost the circumstances that got the Texans up 24 points, right? Where it's fumble and special teams. It's that kind of thing.

because, again, I think there's a pretty good roster disparity between these two teams, and I expect Niners to go to the Super Bowl. Yeah, I don't know. I think that the, again, like we talked about with the Titans having a better plan for Mahomes than the Texans probably would, Robert Salas going to have a much better plan for Devante Adams than Seattle did last week. They're not going to be playing man coverage and letting Devante Adams destroy them. The Niners also don't play a ton of man coverage compared to other teams.

It's heavy zone. I think that they're going to do a lot of things, as Matt LaFleur said today, you know, cloud coverage is making sure that Devante Adams isn't the guy that beats them. So we'll see what happens. I do think it's a hard road for the Packers, but I do think that they have a few guys that can make plays that absolutely can change an entire game. Yep. I'm with you. Score prediction?

I think like 2417 makes sense. 24-17. I think both games are going to be more than one score. It wouldn't surprise me. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Niners just blew them out. It really wouldn't. But I also think that we saw some flashes from the Packers offense last week. We'll see.

The Niners are a better team, but we've seen over the last few weeks that being the better team doesn't always matter in these situations. We have seen that. We've definitely seen that. All right. Anything else? No, that's all I got. When you go into San Francisco?

Tomorrow morning, very early. So I will be there for Shanahan and open locker room and all that stuff tomorrow. Phenomenal. I'll be enjoying Kansas City. The first time I went to Kansas City in January a couple years ago, I did not bring a big coat. That's a terrible idea. I was from New York. I don't even know what I was thinking about.

I had like blazers and like little sweaters. And then I was just miserable. Yeah, that's a really bad move by you. It was awful. It's all right. You live and you learn, buddy. You'll do better this time. All right.

That's all we got, guys. Thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll talk to you later.