The Ringer NFL Show - Mahomes Is Human, the London Raiders, McCaffrey’s MVP Campaign, and Week 5 Reactions | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: October 7, 2019

The Chiefs scored the fewest points ever under Patrick Mahomes in a loss to the Colts (0:40), Christian McCaffrey is setting records through five weeks, and Jon Gruden’s Raiders hold off the Bears in London and move to 3-2. Plus: The Packers' handling of the Cowboys in Dallas (10:20), the Chargers' loss, our challenge flags, and tomorrow's headlines (27:30). Hosts: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Robert May is joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how are you doing, buddy? I don't know what I just saw on the standard night before me. I think we saw a really well-coached Colts team do exactly the type of stuff we thought they could come into the season. That's by the numbers, the type of win I thought the Colts would be possible. Maybe not, or the game before, maybe not against the Chiefs, but that's pretty much exactly the type of team I envisioned them being.

And they did this without Malie Cooker and Darius Leonard. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, obviously, they haven't been perfect this year. they lost to the Raiders last week. But this was the first time that Mahomes has ever been held under 26 points. And they scored half of that. That's unbelievable. That's remarkable.

And I think this is one of those things where you and I sit here and we talk about bad coaches. And there's so many of them, they pull out excuses. And they say, oh, it's the injuries. It's the bad turf. It's whatever it is. We got a slow week of practice because of travel, whatever it is. If your coach is making an excuse, point to the Colts and say, This is a team where the freaking franchise quarterback retired,

and they might make the playoffs. He retired a week before the season started. That is the ultimate no excuse team. And I know that this is, you know, there's a lot there. They had an incredibly talented roster. This is, you know, it is not just about grit or whatever it is, but the ability to take a team that, no matter how talented the roster, Derris front Leonard was tweeting from home, saw that.

That's all you need to know about. It turned into us. Their injury situation, and they looked like they could hang with the elite of the AFC today. Again, I don't know what this looks like in December, but what I saw tonight was hugely, hugely impressive. It's unbelievable how they really have just tapped into the type of team they know they need to be. And I think Jacoby Percette is fine, but they've done a good job of minimizing his impact.

They want to be a team that runs the ball well and plays decent defense no matter who's out there. And that's exactly what they were. And I think that recipe, it's hard to win consistently. consistently with that recipe. I'd rather be the team that wins 35 to 20 than the team that wins 16 to 10. And I think the chiefs have been that for the most part. But when you don't have any other option, when you know this is your best chance to relevance and this is your best path to relevance, then you might as well follow it. And I'm just so impressed with the way the coaching staff has handled all of this. And tonight was pretty much the perfect example.

Yeah. Now we look at Mahomes's ankle. And this has been a problem since this is a problem since the the Jaguars game. And one of the things that kind of calm my nerves from just, you know, a fan of the sport that one see Patrick Mahomes healthy is he was limping around in that Jaguars game. He made some pretty nice throws afterwards. And that looked like it was going to be the case in this game too. And then it just wasn't. I saw a stat that I thought was kind of amazing. And this is sort of instructive on on how Mahomes plays. Obviously, we saw him sneak out of the pocket earlier in the game and have that incredible throw. But this is from the next gen stats. Mahomes has 15 pass. passing touchdowns on a run, presumably the last two years.

No other QB has more than 10th in the NFL. Do you know those two QBs are? No. I'm curious to who it is. Watson maybe? No, no. One of them is Russell Wilson. Okay, that makes sense.

And I need your help on the second one. Is it Mitchell Trubisky? It is Mitchell Trubisky. That's not that surprising. That's what the bears are missing. Little throwing on the run touchdowns. We'll get to that. Anyway, I mean, but, but listen, if you want to just,

if Mahomes has a bum ankle for the next couple weeks and he can play and he can stick back there, it's not a huge. I mean, obviously, we're not going to see Mahomes 100% in the way he plays, but you still have Mahomes dropping back as a pocket passer. That's a pretty good deal. Okay, this isn't like some guy who only uses his legs. He uses both, but this is probably one of the, you know, if you were going to force anybody to be a pocket passer, Mahomes might be it. So they can weather this storm if he's not 100% for a couple of weeks. I agree. And I think that even if he's somewhat limited,

a limited Patrick Mahomes is still better than pretty much anything else. When I'm looking at the chiefs, the thing I'm more concerned about is that they have weaknesses. I mean, that play where he got hurt. That play where he got hurt is so indicative of where they can get them. The interior of their offensive line is not good while he got hurt in that game. While he got hurt, that's the same thing that happened last year. When they got an injury or two on the interior of the offensive line, it started to crumble a little bit.

You know, Duvrenay Tiridif is an overpaid guard. He has not been very good. He has not played up to that deal. They lost their left tackle today for a while. I mean, I just think that a couple things go wrong for them health-wise on the offense. You know, they can overcome losing Tyree Kill. But if that offensive line starts to crumble again, we've seen what happens to this team when that happens. And I feel like that could be their downfall.

If they cannot protect him and he's playing in crumbling pockets, the same way he was late in the season last year. They can still put up 35 points, but it's going to be tougher. Yeah. I mean, this was unbelievable from the Colts perspective. Having said that, you know, he still put up, I think, 321 yards, touchdown, no interception. So it's kind of funny to me that just God-awful Mahomes, relatively speaking, is like the best performance in like, you know, five franchises history, okay?

God-awful Patrick Mahomes is still able to have a guy named Byron Pringle catch six passes. is for 103 yards. God awful Patrick Mahomes. I think the best quarterback in football and I think is probably healthy Patrick Mahomes wins the MVP this year. God awful Patrick Mahomes is still like the ninth best quarterback in football. God, it might even be higher than that. If you saw it tonight, you'd rather have him then I don't these nine guys I'd rather have. Well, no, I'm talking about post ankle injury. Just post ankle injury. Yeah, yeah. That's what that's what I mean by God awful Patrick Pohombs. I mean, beforehand, I mean, he looked unbelievable. What I'm saying, if he can't move, if he cannot escape from the pocket and just to sit back there and drop back.

If he can't make the touchdown throw he did in that game here, essentially. Right, right. But he would do something out. I'm saying if the game, the game plan changes, he changes. He's incapable of making that play. That's it.

Right, right. But that's the type of play you're looking at. Right. But that's an essential part of Patrick Mahomes, the ability to make those sort of plays. What I'm saying is, if he can't move and he just drops back, where is he? Is he like the ninth?

Is he like seventh? I'd have to make the list, but he's probably higher than that even. If he can't even move, he physically has to stand in one place. Robert, do you know what he is? He's number one. I still think Russell Wilson's pretty well. No, no, no, no. I'm joking.

I'm just saying that, you know, this shakes up the MVP race if he's banged up a little bit and has a couple of down weeks. Maybe we talk about Russell Wilson some more. Or we talk about a guy we're going to get to in a minute. Do you have any more points about this? Let's talk about the Colts very briefly before we move on. I want to talk about where they kind of. sit to you in the AFC hierarchy here. Yeah.

Because, you know, obviously we have, you know, the three, forever three and two AFC South. So I think the Colt, the Texans end up winning that division. I still feel like the team that's capable of a game like they had today still has a higher ceiling to me than the Colts do. But in that second group of teams, you probably feel better about them than pretty much everyone, right? I think Cleveland is a wildcard team. The Raiders have the type of.

breaker on them now. We'll get to the Raiders in a second. And I feel better about them than I do about the bills, I think, moving forward. Am I wrong? The bills have a really easy path to 10 and 6. I think that's the biggest part. Their schedule is part of it. They've already gone up

to 4 and 1. They've got the dolphins. They've got some real, real bad teams on the horizon. I think they're probably going to win 10 games. Okay. I think their defense is good enough to keep them in some games. Maybe they shouldn't be in. I think they are a, a decent wildcard team.

When I look at the Indianapolis Colts, they go Texans, Broncos are a win. Steelers, I would assume are a win. I don't think the Broncos, I don't know if you can write

the Broncos in. I think the Broncos look competent in stretches. Okay. So, I think the Colts, I mean, we saw them get beat up

by the Raiders last week. I think this Colts team is a little bit more valuable than you think. Raiders are hot. I guess so. So they go Texans and then that's a toss-up,

even though it's at home. Then it goes, Broncos, Steelers, dolphins, jacks. it's a nice little stretch. I think if they take advantage to that stretch in the way they should, I think they can get there.

I just think that the Browns, the Browns are pretty interesting. But then again, the AFC North is kind of strange right now, dude. Like I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not sure that we need to be looking at the Browns as a wild card team here necessarily. You might be looking at the Ravens.

I mean, oh, no, right, right, right. No, somebody, yeah, somebody might be a wild card team there. But I'm just saying that, that division is wide open to the point that we don't need necessarily paint those guys in. Also, by the way, the Colts could just win the ASC South. Yeah, they absolutely could.

Again, I still think the Texans are better because the offense just has such a high ceiling. And maybe not against the Falcons probably isn't that we should be saying that. But I just think that they have so much talent on that side of the ball. Watkins is too. Watson is so good. It's just, it's hard for me to pick against them right now. You know, I think they have an edge at quarter, excuse me, they have an edge, Tuesday has an edge of quarterback.

Indianapolis has an edge at coach and GM, not only because they have a good one, but they have one. It's a good starting point for any team. All right. Hey, what do you bet? Real quick, real quick, just going to float this.

If Dale Moore loses his job, we make him the Texans GM. He can't be doing, he can't do a worse job than the not exist to one. Tell me, tell me he's not immediately a top half GM. He doesn't have to move. Just right now.

Doesn't have to move. I'm just floating out there. Okay, let's go to the next thing. All right. stock up. Let's talk about Christian McCaffrey for a second. Yeah. This is not going to be a running back value conversation.

I don't want to do that. Right now, I feel like he has a case as the most valuable non-quarterback in the NFL. I think there's a case for him. Based on what he has to be for that offense with a backup quarterback and the different ways he's affecting the game, I just feel like he's in that conversation. He's been unbelievable. I mean, he has, coming into this game, he had 41% of the Panther Scrimmage yards. The guy is on pace to break.

He's on pace for 2,771 yards from scrimmage. That is insane. And it's not just volume. He's doing it as a receiver. He's making huge just chunk. I mean, an 80-yard touchdown run today. The guy has been incredible this season. Last time, a running back.

when the MVP was 2012. I don't foresee. When JJ, watch you have. There you go. So it shouldn't even been a quarterback. Should have been a defensive player. I like that take,

miss. So I have looked at that in the past and wondered if a non-quarterback was ever going to win it again. I thought maybe a wide receiver could win one. I thought maybe if some guy had 25 sacks or something.

That would be the path to me. That would be the path. I don't know if Christian McCaffrey is going to be in the top of voting. I think that the way, for that to happen would be that the Panthers are a 13 and 3 type team and then you know they still have Kyle Allen or a banged up Cam Newton and quarterback and everybody says this is the guy who who is the reason they're 13 and 3. Rissillo said he's the first running back since Adrian Peterson

capable of carrying a team offensively. I think I agree with that. I mean it's it's actually just sort of it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Barnwell had that this tweet earlier today so the NFL record for most games with 175 yards from scrimmage in a season is six. Christian McCaffrey has four in five games. That is amazing. I mean, he's playing a different sport. And it's funny because this is something that we've talked about. And again, I don't want to do the running back value conversation on Sunday night.

We have a Thursday show for that. But when we talk about running back value, he's one of the guys we talk about as an exception because he can catch the ball. and do all these things. He's just a, he is what Levian Bell said he was, which is an offensive weapon and not a running back. That's a great point. He is,

I wrote about this a couple weeks ago. Just the way he's being used, I think puts him in a somewhat different conversation. It's so funny because we do this where, you know, guys change their bodies a little bit when they come into a season. And it's always so overstated. And there were those pictures of him this summer where you're looking at him.

And we're like, oh my God. Like, what did he do? And it has translated. I mean, the guy is, he's so much bigger than he was coming into the league, so much stronger, and his game is just as varied and nuanced as it was that we hoped as we hoped it would be. He affects the game in the ways that we thought he might. And it's impossible for a quarterback to legitimately not win MVP.

The way the sport is played right now, the quarterback is inherently the most valuable player on pretty much every single team. But I do think he has a case right now as the most valuable non-quarterback. And as a running back, I think that's really impressive. I did see this also on Twitter about that scrimmage note. The line of the yards of the yardsome scrimmage note. Do you know the last player to be as effective? The last player to have that kind of production

in the first five games in the line of scrimmage, guess who it was? As a running back? Mm-hmm. I'm not sure. Who was it? Jim Brown. That's pretty good company.

We're just going through Adrian Peterson and all this stuff and Emmett Smith or, you know, whatever. And we're just going straight to Jim Brown. By the way, if we're going to talk about coaching staffs that have done a very good job with imperfect circumstances, I absolutely think we should mention what the Panthers have done in this three games stretch without Cam Newton. I mean, they've leaned on McCaffrey, they've leaned on other areas of the roster, they've leaned on the defense. That team has a ton of talent. It's why I was so bullish on them coming into the season.

It's why I really had faith that they'd be able to kind of weather the storm without Newton just because they have other pads. to being decent. And they have followed it. I mean, that defense is playing well. And McCaffrey looks like one of the best players in football full stop.

And I think that recipe works for them right now. I like it. That is a good team. That's just, I think the ownership, David Tepper, you know, they've invested more in analytics.

Like, I just think that there's, this is a good vibe around the team. I've always thought Ron Rivera is a good coach. I'm in on that team making a nice little run in the NFC. Yep, I'm with you.

Okay. Stock up. John Gruden, man. The Oakland Raiders. I love this. I love this. I mean, like the Chase Daniel thing is whatever. It's two really terrible interceptions.

He's a backup quarterback. Me thinking he's better than Mitchell Trubisky says way more about Mitchell Trubisky than Chase Day. Yeah, that's what I was going to say, he's better. People were in your mentions. They're like, so I guess you crowned Chase Daniel too much to prematurely. And I'm just like, well, that's not actually the point you were making. Like you weren't making the point that he's like, you know, the king of

quarterbacks. You were making the point that he's a better fit than Mitchell Trubisky, which actually scarily enough might still be true. Yeah. I mean, the picks were terrible today. What was worrying to me is that a lot of the stuff that we saw from them against Minnesota just wasn't there today. He wasn't helping with protection. He wasn't running the offense on time. He was bailing from clean pockets. He looked like Mitchell Trubisky. And that was the problem. But I'm not trying to take anything away from the Raiders. The Raiders dominated the Bears up front. On both sides of the ball. I think that there are times where you can limit a pass rusher by his scheme. You know, Kaleo Mack not doing anything in this game, I think is more a product of Derek Carr getting

rid of the ball quickly won and them using a ton of play action, which typically slows down the pass rush. It's good coaching. It's smart. What surprised me is that they just came out and ran the ball down their throats. I know Akeem Hicks got hurt in this game, but I can't remember. I mean, Keem Hicks was hurt last week and it didn't matter. They still crushed the Vikings. I was incredibly impressed at the Oakland Raiders offensive line just coming up out and beating up the bears it was a strange game the bears were so flat I think you know you don't want to use the line and think as an excuse but I feel like that was definitely part of it careful now I just I just roasted excuses in the NFL five minutes ago I trust me I mean it's both teams had to fly there it's the

Raiders were dealing with the same thing west coast yep and they came in all week and I think it was smart the bears came out totally flat and I know that they eventually came back in this game, but they came back for some fluky reasons. Sherrick McManus had a force fumble on the one, and they needed a really weird fumble by car. We just missed Josh Jacobs on a pitch to even get back in this game. I mean,

the Raiders beat them up. And I think that we should talk about kind of this conversation that we had in week one where it was like, John Gruden's fine. The Raiders are okay. They have some talent on this team. The way they've remade the offensive line, I think the scheme defensively with a lack of talent has shown that they can do some things.

I mean, the Raiders are fine. I think they are a legitimate NFL team. I'm not sure what else to say. Yeah, I saw one of this passing chart said Derek Card had two passes beyond 10 yards. I think six passes beyond five yards. He was getting the ball out really quickly. That's a good version of them. And I don't think they should change the thing.

They have talent. Like you said, they were missing two or their three first round picks. So this is, you know, look, it's been a strange year in Oakland. it's a strange franchise, quite frankly, over the past two years. But, you know, Jotten Gruden, this isn't like Jim Tom Sulla here, okay? Like, this is, I always thought that he was more of, I think that the meme thing got away from him a little bit. I think that he didn't understand, you know, like he was out of the game for 10 years.

I don't think he understood, I think he thought he knew how to interact with the media. And I think that that got away from him a little bit. And I just, you know, again, he's fine. They're three and two. They have wins over a Colts team, and that win looks a lot better this week. They ended last week, even though it looked pretty good last week.

And now they beat the Bears. John Gruden said it was the best, I think he said it was the best time he's ever had. Do you see that video? No, I didn't see him say that. He said, I'm 56 years old, and this is the best time I've had. And I don't know if he meant ever,

or, I mean, maybe, maybe he meant ever. In football. Jim Ursay, Jim Ursey said that the Colts win tonight was the biggest, regular season win of franchise history. So we're all just going to go with this right now. We're all just going with it. I think that you have to give some credit to how the Raiders played up front.

But I also think that the Bears offensive line is starting to severely worry me. They cannot run the ball. They haven't been able to the entire season. The running game has been dead on arrival. And they could not protect their quarterback today against the team that has had trouble rushing the past year all season. I mean, this team is coming in, they reviewed as one of the, I don't know, best 10 offensive lines in the league,

definitely in the top half. And they've been an actual weakness this season. And when you don't have the infrastructure to lift up your forgettable quarterback, no matter which one it is, that's when things start to go arrive very quickly. And I think that's what we're starting to see. If they can't protect a quarterback,

that's the only thing they used to do well. So this thing could go south. This is a devastating loss for the Bears. Absolutely devastating. Because this had to be a win when you consider with the second half. their schedule looks like. Saints,

Chargers, Eagles. It's brutal. It is brutal. They still have the Cowboys on there. They still have the Rams on there. They still have the Packers. They still have the Lions twice.

More immediately, they go Saints, Chargers, Eagles, Lions, Rams, giants. And by November, Danny Dimes will be flying. Then Lions,

Cowboys, Packers. Man, this sucks. It's the hardest schedule in the league. It is the hardest schedule in the league. And they needed to be four and one coming out of this game. And now it's, it just gets, I mean,

they had the Chiefs, too. I mean, it's really bad, man. And when you consider how good the Packers look today, I just think that it's going to be tough. They needed this game desperately. All right. Let's get to our very last stock up.

And it is those Green Bay Packers. Just a convincing win today. I mean, going into Dallas and winning the way that they did, slowing down Dak Prescott, who's had two kind of rough games in a row, which we'll get to. The Packers are scary, man. Rogers is not playing out of his mind. He's playing far from it.

It's a very diminished version of him. but this is a really talented team. Yeah, and this is sort of what we talked about the first couple of weeks where the offense was starting really, really slow. And we knew that having seen Aaron Rogers over the past decade that this gets better. He is not Aaron Rogers 2011. He's not Aaron Rogers 2012, whatever it is, but he doesn't have to be. That's the point of this Packers roster is that, you know, I wrote this a couple weeks ago.

But, you know, if your franchise quarterback is the worst part, of your team, you're doing pretty good. So I just think that the building blocks have been there. This was a complete performance. I'm just, I'm hugely impressed with what the Packers may have been able to do the first month and change of the season. By the way, just the Aaron Jones truthers. It finally happened.

It finally happened. Did you see his quote? Everyone has wanted it forever. Did you see his quote where he said, so he basically taunted Byron Jones after he beat him for touchdown. And he said, I'm faster than 4-5 in the 40 because Byron Jones is 4-3, which is just, it's kind of a, it's a very creative way to say, I just toasted that guy. Hey, the guy is really good. I've been waiting for this for a very long time. You know, DAC ended up with decent numbers today. I think that if you look at the box score stats,

me, average 10.5 yards per attempt. He threw for 450 yards. But in the first half, he was 8 to 15 for 134. I mean, they did not move the ball very well. They had, it's in the first half. This game got away from them, and I think that's when they started getting back into it. So, I mean, there's, aesthetically, you look at it's like, okay, you know, it looked fine by the end, but this offense struggled for the second straight week. And I think that Packers defense is really good.

I mean, there's no shame in that. But I still think that we believed after the first couple games that this offense could possibly be matchup proof, and they certainly are. So let's get to stock down. And I think that that's where we're going to start. Are you concerned about the Cowboys, or do you think that, it's hard to, I think it's hard to discern whether they're closer to the team we saw over the first two weeks and, or the first three weeks and the team we saw over the last two. Because I think the

Saints and Packers have very good defenses. I think the Saints and the Packers are really good. I saw a really funny stat. First of all, the Cowboys said, 563 yards of offense. We are in, we've had some nice little just like, we don't know what's happening. And all of a sudden we look up and the quarterback's got 400 yards of offense performance since the last couple weeks. I think had a nice one a couple of weeks ago, Prescott this week. Yeah, it's, I don't think I'm worried. I think maybe you might be worried

because after the past first couple of weeks you had Dallas as a like top top, top, tippy top contender. I don't know if I've had them there yet. Yeah, I did it last week. Yeah, I need to see a little bit more from them. Having seen the last two weeks, do you still have them up there with the cream of the crop?

The only reason I would say maybe is just because I think that most of those teams after the Colts or after the Patriots and the Chiefs, who I still put up there, even after tonight, I think all of those teams are flawed. I think like every single team you want to throw out there has some issue. You know, the Saints won today, again, on the strength of their defense really bothering James Winston. Teddy Bridgewater was better, but he has not been great.

If you look at the Rams, obviously they have a ton of issues. There are no team, I think Philly is probably the best team outside of the top two right now, but they've beaten up on a lot of bad teams. So I don't know. I think that you could probably knock the Cowboys down a little bit. Maybe the Packers are better than the Cowboys. But I do think that second tier of teams is a little bit more muddled. And that's why I'm not so quick to throw them out of there.

Where is the Killen Moorhive this week? It's not going well, man. Again, I feel like I got to go back and rewatch that game and just go back and watch the Saints game this week too, just to kind of see what kind of stuff is going wrong. But I think that we should probably slow down. They looked so good over the first three weeks, and they played two very good defenses. I mean,

the Saints have really hit their stride here. They struggled for pretty much the first three games of the season. And then as soon as they had to kind of make up for Teddy Bridgewater, they started playing really well. So I think the Saints are two talented. The Saints and the Packers are two talented teams. And I think that the Cowboys are probably going to be a bit side. But the flip side of that is that the first three weeks,

they had some incredibly easy games. They had the Giants. they did. They had Eli Manning, Redskins, and the dolphins. So I think that I'm intrigued to see they have the,

unfortunately we don't learn a lot because they have the Jets next week. Yeah, it's a good way to get back at it. We will not be learning a ton about how good they are. And then they have the Eagles the next week.

And I'm intrigued to see how they perform in two weeks against the Eagles. It's a huge game. I'm looking forward to that one. That's on a Sunday night. I think that that one could teach us a lot.

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I mean, we're three and a half years removed from that team being on the precipice of winning a championship and nothing good has happened to them since. In Houston. In Houston. I mean, I don't know. I don't think he. loses his job mid-season, I don't think this is that kind of organization. Arthur Blank said today that he didn't feel like they needed to make a change.

And they're not reactionary like that. I don't think they're going to make a rash decision. But I also think that this is devolved into a really bad situation. We said a couple weeks ago that they made so many changes this offseason that essentially put this on Dan Quinn's shoulders. They fired all three coordinators. He's the defensive play caller now. And the defense looks worse.

I know that the Cana O'Neill's hurt all that. It doesn't matter. They needed to be better than this. And I just don't understand how he comes out of this season with his job. Yeah. I saw a great breakdown of contracts this week. And it was from Jason Fitzgerald over the cap. A friend of the pod he's been on before.

And he ranked the teams by annual contract value, teams with one winner. less. The Falcons have spent $223 million on their contracts. That's number one in the NFL. And they have one win. That's the problem. This team is built to win right now.

The Dolphins have spent $100 million less. That's obviously last in the lead. The Cardinals have spent 161, 29th in league. Broncos 180. Again, the Falcons have spent $223 million more than any other team.

on players to win now and you can't do what we're doing here. The problem is that I think the offense is still going to be fine in the long run. I think the talent on that side of the ball will eventually kind of win out. I don't know if it's this year. We know that I don't think Dirk Cutter is a very good offensive coordinator. It's not the choice I would have made. If we bring someone else in next season, I think there's a chance that this offense can kind of find its footing again.

The problem is the defense never got better. It was that young group of players that they had in 2015. A lot of those guys were rookies. And near the end of the season, their past defense, it felt like they were starting to figure it out. And it never got any better than that. They hung around in the 20 to 25 range by most metrics. They were hurt last season so you could argue that maybe the arrow was pointing up

if they could get guys back. But it just hasn't happened. So now you have that in mind. And next year the defense gets expensive. You have D.N. Jones on his second contract. Now you have Grady Jared on a 16th. million cap at next season. You know, Desmond Troufant is still making,

it's making $15.1 million on that extension. He's not a $15.1 million player anymore. So that's the problem is even if you bring in a new coach, even if you think the offense can get better, I don't know where the Falcons go from here because they have so many guys that are so expensive on that side of the ball. Yeah, I understand that.

But I think that it goes back to something that we've talked about many times, which is if you have the quarterback, if you have an efficient quarterback who can hit the highs and Matt Ryan has hit. you're not that far away because you've already solved the hardest problem there is to solve in the sport, which is finding a quarterback. So I think that you don't need to process it here. You don't need to do a total tear down.

Oh, no, absolutely not. You can build yourself back up keeping the pillar players that you have now. So I don't know. I don't know if you can fix it in one year, but you can certainly, you know, it's significantly fewer steps than most teams. Yeah, because you have the quarterback and I agree. And I think that if they bring in a different coordinator, that offense can still be good. The problem is they just have such little financial wiggle room. And you're going to need the offense to kind of carry you, I think, if you don't hit on a series of draft picks on the defensive side of the ball next season.

Because that's part of the problem here, right? Is that they spent their resources this off season on the offense. So there aren't even any young players. It's like, oh, man, if this guy takes a step forward, this guy takes a step forward. There really isn't that on defense. pretty much everything is a realized quantity right now outside of like Isaiah Oliver. You know, Tack McKinley is going to be in his third year next year. So it's tough.

I just think the defense has a long road to get better and it's going to be difficult to do that in a single offseason when you don't have many resources. And I don't. What did they trade for McGarry? Because they traded up to get him. So they're kind of, they have less draft capital than you would think anyway. So it's, it's not good, man. I mean, I mean, this is a team that really did. everything they could to be a contender

this season yet again. And the season is pretty much lost. I'm with you there. It's a... They trade second and third round picks for McGarry, which, God, even that's rough. It has not gone well. Losing Lindstrom was tough. I get that.

But the defense, there's really no excuses. I mean, Keanu is one player. All right. Let's get to our last one here. I don't know what to make of the Bengals. I wrote about this this week. I wrote about Andy Dalton. It feels like they probably will move on after the season. It just feels like it's time.

They're not going anywhere. Yeah. He has no dead money left on his contract. It seems like this is probably, any other franchise you could bet on them looking in a different direction of quarterback next season. The Bengals, it's hard to predict just because they make decisions

no one else makes for reasons that we understand. They are cheap. But right now, it feels like it's time. and this Zach Taylor thing is gone about as badly as it could have. Well, let me ask you a question. Do you think Zach Taylor is as bad a coach as he has appeared to be, as the Bengals have appeared to be through the first five weeks of the season? No, because I think that there are a lot of issues with this team.

I think they've been, I'm with you on that. They're hurt. And the one, they're hurt, two, they have no talent. And that's the problem. The few talented players, they do have. have are hurt. Classic problem. You don't have any good players. Yeah. And that's the issue with this team. And I wrote it by when I was writing about Dalton. They tried to restock their roster the same way they stocked it the first time. They essentially said, we are not going to spend

any money in free agency. We are going to draft well. And that's how we're going to build this team. And they haven't drafted well. You know, losing John Ross, right as John Ross was starting to do something, that's the type of stuff that's happened to them. Losing Jonah Williams before the season starts and having the domino effect that takes place with your offensive line as a result. You have to move Corey Glenn back to left tackle. Then Cordy Glenn gets concussion in the preseason. Now he's hurt. It's just everything has gone wrong for them.

And I don't think Zach Taylor is as bad as we thought. I think this is more of an organizational problem. I thought it's interesting. There was a CBS report this morning that A.J. Green could fetch a first round pick. And I don't know if they want to do that or anything like that. but what I'm saying is that it might be time having seen what this team looks like through a month and change to just start processing a little bit and try to get as many picks as you can get.

I mean, if you want to go the draft pick route, you need to figure out a way to get as many draft picks as you can. They obviously like cheap players there. Mike Brown, I can give you a path to a lot of cheap players. It's getting as many first, second, third round picks as possible. They have some talent on there. They want to play around that they can. I think there's a real path to a rebuild there, but I do think they would, you know, from what I understand and from what I've heard, they really, really like keeping AJ Green around.

And I'm intrigued to see if they sort of admit their situation and start and start looking at a rebuild from a draft hoarding pick capital sort of perspective. The H. The H.A. Green thing is interesting because, again, they should trade him. Yep. That's what that is the smart thing to do. But a lot of teams would do. But a lot of, you know, the Bengals are, you cannot divorce their loyalty from people. That's Marvin Lewis or Arnie Dalton or whatever from their inability to just spend a ton of money on certain things.

And AJ Green is different because he's well worth the investment. But it's interesting to me that they are, they are the organization that takes people the most. And part of that is keeping people like AJ Green around. And they love him. No, but of course. He's like the mayor of Cincinnati. Yes, of course he is. What I'm saying, if you're actually, I am okay if they want to keep A.J. Green around and say,

okay, we're going to keep you as a pillar of the team. I'm fine with that. But one quick way to get to contention is to get a first round pick for A.J. Green. Yeah. It's the smart move. I think that they're, they didn't want to rebuild, but they're in a position to do it now. And if they didn't, if they don't, I think it's silly. But again, I think that they've made decisions.

for worse reasons in the past than we want to be loyal to AJ agree. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if they hung on to him. The Dalton thing, I feel like is definitely the one to monitor moving forward. I mean, I tweeted again today. I would trade for Andy Dalton. I think a lot of teams would. It's a fascinating thing to watch. It's a fascinating thing to see what Andy Dalton's sort of career arc looks like for the next

four or five years. If he can do, if he can just sort of reinvent himself almost like, I mean, not, they're very different. players, but, you know, Alex Smith was not all that well thought of in his first, you know, five, six years in the league. And then he developed into, under Jim Harbaugh, one of the most reliable passers in the sport. And then developed into, you know, a reliable veteran that the teams wanted around. And I think that with the right situation, Andy Dalton can become that guy into his mid-30s. I wrote about this week, Andy Dalton is his circumstances. And I think most

quarterbacks are closer to that than we want to believe and want to admit. I think Andy Dalton is the perfect example of it. And I think if he gets to be in pretty good circumstances for the second half of his career, he can be pretty good. He's been really bad this year, but their team is a disaster. They have absolutely no offense to talent. He's looked bad. But last season, he played some of his best football. Andy Dalton was good last year, just objectively good, not good with a couple caveats. he was good last year. And that team was terrible. I think if you put him in a decent spot,

he can still be a pretty good quarterback. I don't think he's a long-term answer. I don't think he's going to excite anyone. But for a team that doesn't have many other avenues to finding a quarterback, I think it's a creative solution. Yep. I'm with you. All right.

Let's throw a couple quick challenge flags here. I want to throw one on the Redskins just because I don't understand what the Redskins are doing. And I get that there are a lot of competing motivations. in that building, and you have a coach that's probably going to get fired soon. You have a front office that wants this quarterback to play and wants Dwayne Haskins to be the quarterback moving forward. But Jay Gruden doesn't, obviously, because he's trying to win games and salvage his job. It seems like there's a lot of stuff going on there.

I still don't understand how you don't have enough of a singular vision of your team where you can't, like, Dwayne Haskins should be starting. There's no reason right now for Dwayne Haskins to not be. be getting this experience if he's going to be your quarterback. Trodding Colt McCoy out there is not the answer to any, like, that's not an answer. It's just not anything an NFL team should be doing. So I just do not understand what that franchise is. I want to share a quote with you from Adrian Peterson, which is, might be my favorite quote of this young NFL season. It's in the Washington Post. He was asked about the New England defense. And he said, quote, they showed a lot of exotic stuff on

film but against us they didn't really you know it was like hey we'll sit back here and see what you guys do allow you guys to mess up imagine talking about your own team like that like imagine that is i don't know if he thought that like i i don't even know i maybe he was just angry but it was that was that's an amazing incisive comment from agent peterson i wrote about it a couple weeks ago when they were o and three or oh and four I can't remember when I wrote it, but I lumped them in with the Broncos and just kind of where do these teams go from here? And I don't know the answer to that. I just don't know what it is with Washington.

I mean, yeah, the answer is nowhere. The answer is in a concentric circle. Yes. And that's the problem. With the ownership they have with the way that the front office works, there's just no way to get out of this. Because even if Haskins ends up being pretty good. And I think that that's a big if, I still have no faith in the front office's ability. to put talent around him.

It's just such a disaster because there's no reason to be hopeful. With some of these teams, I mean, you could try to argue that maybe there's a path forward here, but with Washington, there just isn't. I don't think concentric was the right word there,

but that's fine. Hey, I'm going to throw my challenge flag at the, speaking of the Denver Broncos at the San Diego Chargers franchise. I'm sorry, the LA Chargers franchise. The Southern California Chargers. Yeah, the Southern California Chargers.

I, again, did not mean to say San Diego, but again, that's on them. I do it every time. Having moved. They got invaded by Broncos fans on Sunday. That's not really a surprise. Joe Flacco was asked about it. He said, quote,

it's a pretty cool place to play. It's not too dissimilar from a really nice 1-A-Statium. And the reporter Ryan Kononsberg clarifies. He meant that as a compliment that accidentally turned into a burn. now this would be sort of bad enough

except they lost to the damn broncos Philip Rivers looked really bad and I just don't know what's going on in Carson, California right now if Rivers is going to play poorly this team is done because he in and Allen were the only thing that was going well for the first month of the season

they from a year I mean, injuries, everything else. But we talked about this roster is one of the most complete in the league as recently as a year ago. And everything that's happened to them, all the guys that have gotten hurt, all that. It's just gone really bad, really fast.

And I just don't know what they do. If Rivers is not going to be there to carry them, like he and Keenan Allen did at times over the first month, this team is in a bad way because they just don't have much else going for them right now. They are on Sunday night next week. Who are they playing? The Pittsburgh Steelers.

That one looked a lot better before the season started. It sure did. Yeah, I don't know what you do for the Chargers. I mean, it just seems like they're not in a position to compete this year. And you have a quarterback who's what? How old? 36. Something like that.

Maybe a little older? 37. There'll be 38 in December. So, yeah, I don't know. I just don't know. I figured they'd be better. but when you start losing guys like Derwin James and everything starts falling apart,

then it really doesn't matter how much talent you have. At a certain point, your roster is no longer, roster talent is no longer an advantage for you when all these guys start getting it. When does this team move into a 90,000 C stadium? Isn't it next year? You hate to see that.

When, who's their backup with Tyrod, when Tyrod Taylor is the starting quarterback for the Chargers next year? I mean, I hope he's their starting quarterback. I mean, I, I, I mean, actually might still be Phillip Rivers, which would be fine. Oh, I think it will. I'm just for marketing. But, I mean, I just, I don't know who's going to, who's going to go.

So it's 70,000 normally expandable to 100,000. I got to be honest with the maze. I don't necessarily see them expanding it to 100,000 for the charges. Not sure they're going to need that one. All right. What do we want tomorrow's headlines to be? We didn't talk about that. Well, I mean, I think Mahomes, Mahomes watch just to see, I mean, any time that, you know,

an MVP is limping. There's a lot of concern about that. But I think that, again, unless it's something serious, we can't pick up wanting the cheats will be fine. Anything else you think will carry into the week? I feel like we should probably start talking about how dominant the steel or the Patriots are. But the problem is they keep beating up on these terrible teams. So the conversation hasn't started. I mean, Aaron Schatz is tweeted out tonight. Seven points per game. It's there right now. Aaron Schatz has tweeted it while we're recording. I mean, by DVOA, they're like the fifth. best team in the DVOA era so far. And they played terrible teams.

And I'm sure that we'll see this Patriots defense struggle at times against better offenses. But they're doing what you should do. You're supposed to destroy bad teams. And that's exactly what they've done. I mean, the only time we've even seen them struggle a little bit was with Buffalo last week. And that was the offense struggle.

I mean, the defense is absolutely loaded. And I just, they're as good as we thought they were going to be. They have Danny Dimes on Thursday. They have the Jets after that. Well, you know, that's a loss. If there's one team that can beat them, it's the Giants. Danny Dimes in a short week getting ready. Then they have the Browns and then the Ravens.

And then they play the Eagles on November 17th. That's a fun one. They have a nice little run in November. And I'm really looking forward to. November into December. They go Ravens, Eagles, Cowboys, Texans, chiefs. And then the light at the end of the tunnel is on December 15th in Cincinnati.

Oh, goodness. All right. That's all we got. We will be back on Thursday with our standard Thursday show. As always, guys, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We'll talk to you later. Raise your game with MSX by Michael Strayhan,

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