The Ringer NFL Show - Mahomes Making History, Fitzmagic in Tampa Bay, Vontae Davis Retiring, and Week 2 Takeaways | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 302)

Episode Date: September 17, 2018

The Ringer’s Robert Mays and Kevin Clark link up to discuss Patrick Mahomes’s historic start to the season, Ryan Fitzpatrick’s on- and off-field swagger, and why kickers are struggling (23:45). Later, the guys throw their challenge flags for Week 2 (which include Vontae Davis retiring at halftime) before predicting this week’s headlines (48:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Get the Yahoo Sports mobile app and you are gold. To the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, bud? I've been better. I'm watching the Giants on primetime television. This is a team that Patrick Dodger just tweeted this out. The Giants have now scored 30 points since week 17 of the 2015 season,

and they are returning in primetime to our televisions. A four-week stretch starting on Thursday, October 11th, a Thursday night game against the Eagles. Then they go Monday at Atlanta. then two weeks later, they play at San Francisco on Monday night. This is a primetime staple this year, and we're going to see a lot of what we saw on Sunday night. So we will revisit the Giants a little bit later in this show.

I do want to get into the sort of unwatchable nature of their offense. But as always, we're going to kick off. Let's start with the watchable. That's exactly right. So we're going to start every single one of these Sunday night shows with essentially the story of the weekend. And I'm not sure there's anywhere else to go, but with the Kansas City Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes.

I don't want to say we were on this, Kevin. I feel like even our enthusiasm and excitement about the Mahomes era in Kansas City came with a caveat or two. It was one of those. It may be fun, but it may be a little rocky. It has not been rocky.

Patrick Mahomes throws six touchdown passes tonight. He sets the NFL record for your first three games in terms of touchdown passes in total. And wait, wait, wait, wait, let's clarify that. That's all players forever, not rookies. All time. All time players. The two players who had nine through two games was 2009 Drew Brees historically good and 2013 Peyton Manning historically good.

Yes. So here's the thing. And this is what I want to get into about the chiefs. And there have been so many kind of just world breaking, like record shattering offenses in the last like eight to ten years in the NFL. So let's think about some of them, right? The 2013 Broncos, the 2015 Falcons. 2007 Patriots and 2011 Patriots. So like a lot of these Patriots teams. The 2000, 2007 Patriots may be in this conversation, so we'll get there when I present this point. But a lot of those offenses were so schematic. And like, their advantage was schematic. They were so well-schemed or they had these quarterbacks who just had this cerebral advantage that was just out of this world.

You know, like you had the Mannings and the Brady's and whatever. And with the Falcons, you had Shanahan, obviously. The 2011 Patriots, it was really just... ball control. I mean, it was amazing watching them kind of control the sticks and everything else. Yeah. I don't know if I have seen in the past 10 years this dynamic of an offense in terms of their overall skill position talent. They're just overwhelming athleticism all over the field at pretty much every single spot. We just don't see that. So there's a couple of things I like to address. Number one, I agree with you. I want to

get ahead of ourselves here. But what we're seeing right now is pretty flawless. You know, pro football focus does its little game recaps right after the buzzer. And the one thing they found fault, and this is sort of tongue-in-cheek

because they had to find something. They found fault in the fact that Mahom steps up a little too much in the pocket. That's where we are. Which is the best possible problem. That's where we are right now. I agree with you.

You know, I mean, I just think this is a perfect marriage of scheme and player and players, because Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, Travis Kelsey,

who got in the mix today in a way he didn't last week. Sammy Watkins. Chris Conway. Yeah. I mean, there's just, it's beautiful.

And I go back to something that Joe Banner told me last year. When the Eagles signed Michael Vick, when Andy Reid signed Michael Vick, in his mind's eye, he said, we're going to be able to run a true hybrid of the spread and West Coast,

and we're going to be able to do it right now. And they had a lot of success with Vic, but it didn't happen schematically the way that it could have. And it didn't. It was more of a West Coast deal. They were not running Texas Tech's offense. They were not running, you know, Mike Leach stuff. But now when you look at all of those elements, you look at all of the Lincoln Riley type stuff they're able to come up with now, you're seeing exactly what was in Reed's mind eye a decade ago. And that's what's so amazing about this.

it's the perfect situation for almost everybody involved, and that is so rare in football. What would you say, just in terms of overall explosiveness, in terms of skill position talent, which offense that you've ever seen rivals this one? Oh, well, I mean, the 2007 Patriots are on another level.

And this, well, see, that, see, I understand where you're coming from to a certain degree with that, but I also think that that is more of just a perfect,

compliment of players. Like, Wes Walker is not an explosive player. No, but Randy Moss was. Yes. Tom Brady was. I mean, I'm not sure. Brady's the quarter. I'm taking the quarterback out of it to a certain degree. I mean, I think you have, you have certain collections of just incredible talent. I mean, I would say that the greatest show on turf rams for that is the one I would throw out there.

We're incredibly explosive. I mean, I just think you have collections like that. But I think that I don't know how much, I mean, explosion and athleticism. And we have, there's a lot, there've been a lot of incredibly athletic teams that haven't been as good as this team. This is, this is a perfect confluence of explosion, athleticism, and execution. That's exactly right. That's why it's so cool. Because like we do, we see the execution and we see the explosiveness. But we don't often see it married to this degree. And that's why it's so fun to watch. I mean, like, you have Sammy Walkins who

was a top 10 pick. And whatever you think about the limitations of Sammy Wacken's career, that's fine. But he had 100 yards receiving today and it was an absolute force for them. Tyree Kill had a very quiet 90 yards. Travis Kelsey caught two more touchdowns. Chris Conley is the number three receiver on this team. Do we want to go over Chris Conley's combine numbers? Well, I mean, he's he's leaping out of the building.

Yes. I mean, he's, there's a reason John Dorsey, Andy Reid, Brett Feach, those guys put a, they put an absolute premium on athleticism. I was speaking to these guys about it four and five years ago. You know, that sort of Ron Wolftree did it before

a lot of other teams. You know, I remember talking to Zach Whitman, who does this stuff for a website called Three Sigma Athlete, is that right? He's the spark guy. Yeah, he's, I think that's his website. And just look him up on Twitter. And you know, he talked about that what happened, what has happened in the NFL

over the past decade is that every team has drafted these unathletic guys in an increasingly athletic era, and then they realize they have to get more athletic, and then they start going with the spark stuff. And the example he always uses is the Steelers who had drafted a bunch of unathletic linebackers, and they said, you know what, screw this. This was four years ago, and then they just got really athletic. And I think Jarvis Jones was the tipping point there.

And the Ron Wolf sort of mold was doing this 10 years ago, and there's a reason John Schneider has really athletic teams. There's a reason that Andy Reid has really athletic teams. McKenzie. Those guys are the types of guys who, when I have a draft crush because he jumps high or because he has those explosion numbers, those are usually the teams that take them. If you start to sort combines by combine data by athleticism, you're going to find a lot of chiefs and raiders and Seahawks and Packers. That's where these guys go. And it shows all the time. And so, yes, when you can mold all of that stuff, when you have some of these guys who hit Tyreek Hill and

Cream Hunt are two of the most athletic guys in football, and they're a perfect pieces here. And, you know, Chris Connolly, as you said, it took him a while. I was a little bit worried about his career trajectory. I feel a lot better about it right now than I did maybe last year. Well, it's not even about just what he is in a vacuum. Like, that's fine. You know, like Chris Connolly being a super athlete and maybe not reaching whatever potential he might have, it's more just being a factor in this offense. Yeah. And the fact that you could just throw a guy like Demetrius Harris in there as well. You know, a guy who played basketball in college,

was not somebody that was probably at anybody's radar coming in, but is a 4-540 guy at about 6-6-250. I mean, it's just every single player on their offense is a dynamic force. And I think combining that with the Mahomes just buzzsaw of talent. I feel like so many of those throws are within scheme, on time, you know, not necessarily throws that show off what he can do. But I think the one touchdown he threw to DeMarcus Robinson,

where he's got to roll out a little bit and fit that throw into the back of the end zone, that is just the middle ground of this offense. That's where you see it all kind of come together, where, yes, so much of this is schematic, so much of this is just the skill position talent that's been assembled. But every once in a while, his arm is just going to overcome everything else. And I think those three factors coming together all at once, holy shit, man.

Yeah, no, I'm with you. I have two things circled on my calendar. They play the 49ers and the Broncos. That's vaguely exciting, especially when you consider the grappleau factor. But October 7th, they play the Jaguars. That's a defense I want to see Patrick Mahomes again. That's a defense I want to see the entire chief's offense against, not just the defensive line.

But what happens when Mahomes goes down the field and those guys are absolutely, draped by AJ Boya and Jalen Ramsey. The next week they play the Patriots. That is more of a glitzy matchup. It's not, I mean, the Patriots defense was, was so bad today that I don't necessarily want to say, I don't necessarily

care what Patrick Holmes looks like against that defense right now. Like, I'll care in January. But it's, you know, it's just how will Belichick play him sort of thing. But I think those two games are going to tell us a lot because the one thing Patrick Mahomes has not done

is he has not made a mistake at the NFL level. And I know this sounds very old school and I know it sounds very like I'm talking about I'm Bill Parcells or something, but I'd like to see him make a mistake at the NFL level and see what happens after that. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're going to be roadblocks during this season. I think the biggest roadblock for them is something we talked about coming in. It's just that they're going to give up so many points that unless they have flawless offensive games, they're going to lose a couple of these. And that's okay if their offense plays to this degree. but it's not going to be the spotless season for the chiefs.

I think we have to understand that. No, not at all. By the way, what the hell is going on with the Pittsburgh Steelers today? What do you think? Do you think this is like an actual cause for concern or you just think that the chief's offense is such a force of nature that we just have to kind of tip their hat? I don't know.

I mean, I think there's like a 50% chance that I don't think the chiefs are going to be an average offense or anything like that. I think that they're going to be a top five NFL offense this year. But, you know, there's a chance that they just look historically. because they played kind of a crappy Steelers defense. Yeah, I think the Steelers defense is maybe worse than we thought coming in.

I feel like they crushed the Browns last week. You look last year, I'm sorry, last week without the Chargers without Bosa, they didn't have that much of a pass rush. So, I mean, it's not like they're facing, they haven't faced, you know, a Jaguars-esque defensive line exactly, just considering the talent and the health they faced. That's totally fair, but here's what I'll say. Part of the reason that this Chief's offense is able to succeed like this, Their offensive lines are really good.

Yep. It's not a group of stars all the way across, but you have a very serviceable left tackle in Fisher. You have maybe the best right tackle in the NFL in Mitchell Schwartz and some very serviceable, decent interior offensive linemen. Mitch Moore's can play. Laurent Duveniator Dief is a very deep, he's totally reasonable as a guard. He's a doctor.

He's also a doctor. He's a doctor. And that's, it's just every factor going into this offense. allows them to be this. And I guess that's what my point is. I want you to overreact. Where do you put them in the AFC right now? Probably behind New England.

Yeah. I mean, they're going to be behind New England if they entering the fourth quarter of 25 points on New England and the AFC championship game, in my opinion. I mean, until otherwise, New England makes a Super Bowl every year. Yeah. I mean, if I had to just knee-jerk reaction gunned to my head, I would put them right behind New England.

I also want to address something earlier. I will not ever compare anything to the 2007 Patriots until I see like 50 more things from this offense. Totally. And like again, it's like it's the idea of schematic

versus personnel talent overall. It's the difference between a good offense and an offense I was literally scared of even though I didn't play football and didn't even have a team. It was like, you don't want the child of seven Patriots come into your house,

running some deep, deep plays. Yeah. That's, we'll get there when we get there. but I think that that's another week or two away before we actually start to have that conversation. All right, Kevin, let's get to this week's Stock Watch. Stock up for the week.

Let us start with Ryan Fitzpatrick, Todd Monkin, and the rest of that Buccaneers offense. 819 passing yards through two weeks, eight touchdowns. Ryan Fitzpatrick is almost with the Drew Breezes and the Peyton Mannings of the world. He's won off that number. talking about earlier. I don't know what to say about this. I mean, first of all, one, Ryan Fitzpatrick's choice to come out and Deshaun Jackson, to Sean Jackson's outfit after the game is an all-timer. So I don't understand if he knew he looked exactly like Connor McGregor or not.

I don't think he did. Because he looked exactly like Connor McGregor. To the point that I thought it was a McGregor bit and then it turned out to be a Deshawn Jackson bit. At what point do you thought he did that? At what point was he like? At what point was he like, Like, all right, I'm wearing this. He's just, he's on fire right now. He's just riffing. But was, was it like in the third quarter? Was it the fourth quarter?

Was it like two minutes before he went out to the podium? I mean, he's, he's probably had it planned out. He went to Harvard. He's very smart. But here's, here's my thought on Ryan Fitzpatrick. There is no one more unstoppable, including Patrick Mahomes in the NFL than Ryan Fitzpatrick when there's a contract extension on the line. who balls out more than Ryan Fitzpatrick

when there's a chance for a professional football a one year $10 million deal coming down the pipeline next year. Maybe it's not with Tampa Bay. Maybe it's somewhere else. But here's our guy got a six year contract from the bills because he bawled out for like five weeks. He basically held the Jets franchise hostage for an entire offseason two years ago,

got that one year $10 million. It was incredible. This guy just collects $10 million. at a time. He is unbelievable. He woke up three weeks ago and was like, whoop, in 2019, I could make $10 million. Time to go. That's fair.

But here's my thought about this. I feel like them giving the reins to Todd Monkin is like a very real thing. I've loved Todd Monkin coming into the league. I mean, he came from Southern Miss. That offense. By the way, he took a Southern Miss team that was 0 and 12 when he got there and got them in nine and three in three years and then just bailed to come an offensive guru in the NFL. It's a pretty interesting career path.

So, yes. And I feel like what they managed to do for these last two weeks is so impressive. And one of my reasons that I was so down on the bucks coming into the year is I felt like their choices schematically in both offense and defense were so stagnant and so just done and cooked that I was like, well, this team is just all. I mean, I absolutely could just see Dirk Carter getting fired in three weeks. But giving the reins to Munkin offensively has really changed the game. And I just feel like it's really unlocked this immense amount of skill position talent that they have. We were talking about this in our Slack today.

If you had to give the belt for a wide receiver duo in the NFL to one team right now, who would get it? Yeah, I would guess it would be Evans and Jackson. I'm still giving it to the Vikings. Do you mean through two weeks or through like forever? No, just period. Like right now. Right now. Who would you go with?

The Vikings. The United Dix. Yeah. I mean, they're the best route runners in the NFL. They're still, I mean, you saw it today. They were amazing today. I mean, just the balls they were able to create that they would not have created normally.

I would give that. I would give the nod to them. But when Mike Evans and Deshawn Jackson are playing like this, they're at least in the conversation. You have to mention them. Through two weeks, it's them. And then you just throw O.J. Howard in there. The guy created a 75-yard touchdown after the catch.

So here's what you need to know about Todd Monkin. The first time I talked to Tom Monkin was a number of years ago when I was at the Wall Street Journal. And it was during the lockout and I was doing other stories because I covered the NBA at the time. And I called him about a story about Brandon Whedon. That was the first time we talked. And the important thing is that he made me. Brandon Whedon look like a guy who should be picked in the first round. That's all you need to know about Tom Monk.

He and Mike Gundy created Brandon Whedon and he could make fits into Tom Brady. And I'm not sure it's as big as an accomplishment as that. And that's the thing about Todd Monkin is just that the spread elements of what he brings and just how wide open that offense looks now, it just looks so different. It's just the entire feel around how they're a problem. approaching it, looks so incredibly different. They look like

fucking big 12 games. I mean, it is unbelievable watching what that offense looks like and just how open guys are, how much space there is for these throws. And I also,

we do this all the time when, because especially a wide receiver, there's so much talent at the top that I feel like we're forgetting certain guys and just how good they are. Mike Evans is amazing,

dude. Mike Evans is so, good. I mean, there's certain receivers around the league, Robert, who all it takes is just a little schematic change. These guys can get open. They need court. I mean, we saw that last year. It was a different little situation because they were having success with it. But, you know, Sammy Watkins is a good example, where the scheme sort of lost him. And you can, you need to unlock these guys sometimes. You know, the thing you always hear from the tape, tape grinders is that Sammy Watkins was sort of a backside option last year and was used effectively as a decoy. But that's, you know,

one of the reasons is numbers went down a little bit. Goff just wasn't looking at them. And I just think generally, you know, sometimes it's like kind of what we said with the chiefs. You just need everybody in their perfect situation. And it seems right now like Todd Munkin has got everybody there. Yeah, I totally agree. Before we move on, let's take a quick break.

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You play, you win, you get paid. All right, let's move on. Stock up. Let's go to another Florida team here. Blake Bortles. Oh, boy. And the Jacksonville Jaguar's offense. I feel like there are times where you look at a stat line, you'll see your result, you'll see your performance.

You know, a guy throws for 377 yards and four touchdowns. you're like, you know, he didn't really play that well. I mean, you know, that's kind of inflated. A lot of guys were wide open down the field. It wasn't necessarily that he made a bunch of great throws. That is not the case with what Blake Bortles did today. I mean, the pick he threw a little bit later in the game that was intercepted by Kyle Van Nuoy.

That's a ball you probably shouldn't try to fit in there. But for the most part, I mean, this was a fantastic performance that involved a lot of just keyhole throws from a guy that, you know, we have spent a good amount of time shitting on during this show. You know, we laughed on Thursday show when Bill Belichick said that Blake Bortles needs to be considered among the elites in the mobile quarterback division. And I'm not sure who showed us because Blake Bordel certainly showed us, but also Bill Belshach was right about that.

So they kind of both showed us. Bill Belichick warned us. Essentially what happened in this game. was that the Patriots came out and they said, we're going to play a man. We don't trust Blake Bortals to beat us. We don't trust your wide receiver talent. Four touchdowns.

Can you come out and beat us? And the answer was yes. And the answer was yes for two different reasons. One, Bortals made the throws. I mean, you can pick any individual one you want. Let's go with the Moncrief fade for the touchdown. Perfect ball placement. Gilmore doesn't get his head around.

The ball is exactly where it needs to be. Moncrief makes the catch touchdown. Let's go with the Kiwin Cole touchdown on the left side. Exactly where it needs to be down the left side in a perfect spot six. And that's kind of where we are with this game, is that they essentially dared the Jags to beat them outside the numbers down the sideline and man, and they did. And the other way they beat them was cross-examination.

Routes, pick plays, third down throws in man coverage. And that is a credit to Nathaniel Hackett. For knowing they were going to play man most of this game and for calling a lot of man beating routes in high leverage situations. And it's a credit to Blake Portals and those receivers for just executing when they needed to. They were 10 or 14 on third down. And in a lot of ways, this reminded me of what the Eagles did on third down last year. just having the right play dialed up

to be able to beat the correct coverage in those high stakes moments. I'm not saying the Jags are last year's Eagles. I'm just saying that that's what it reminded me of. Well, I mean, it's not that crazy. I mean, it's not the same on offense, certainly, but I mean, this Jaguars team came very, very close to beating the Patriots in the playoffs.

No, I'm just saying, like I feel like we have, I specifically have criticized the Jags play calling and choices at times in the past. Even last year, they were extremely stagnant in certain situations. Yeah, but there were games where Bortles couldn't hit a screen pass. No, excuse me. I'm saying last week. Even last week, I was just like, God, this team is just predictable and boring.

And I don't have any faith in their ability to scheme guys open. Today was not that way. I was so impressed by their ability to get guys in space, get guys in the right scenario, and just get going. And they've got athletes, man. Keele and Cole, I'm ready for. for this weird Dante Moncrief Renaissance we're going to have?

Is it a renaissance from Moncrief or is it just sort of... No, there's no Renaissance to be had. A debut as a relevant NFL player. They have done such a good job of finding receiver talent late. Yeah. And I know that obviously the guys in charge of change.

You know, Tom Coughlin's there now, whatever. But this team, you think about just the guys they've kind of scooped up. Alan Hearns in the 7th. Kew and Cole was on. drafted, that D.D. Westbrook touchdown today was impressive. I mean, you're just hoping that they can just scrape

together enough for those guys to have a decent receiving cord this year. And today was very much an indication that that's possible. Alan, I only know this because you went to Miami. Alan Hurons was undrafted. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought he was a seventh round pick. Whatever. Oh, no. He's, he's, he rose up.

I mean, Alan Hurons isn't like a star, but Alan Hurons is like a real NFL receiver and he was undrafted. So they've been able to find. some guys. So, yeah, I was super impressed by their offensive performance today. We're going to talk a little bit more about just the Jaguar's offensive formula a little bit later in the show.

But for the most part, it's optimistic. The tone around what happened today is nothing but good things. Last one before we move on very quickly, stock up. Thurwin James was amazing today. This is your baby. I mean, he was my draft baby. I love him. He's an athlete.

He's versatile. But this was your suggestion today. Take it away. I'm just watching him today and just the amount of ways they used him was unbelievable. I mean, he had, it's only one sack.

I thought it was two. Maybe one of them was called back. It seemed like a million sacks because they were playing the bills. They used him so much as a pass rusher. So he had at least one sack. There was a stretch of plays, I believe in the third quarter maybe, where the bills threw a ball into the flat

and Durwin just stuck somebody for, I believe, is like just no gain or one yard. And on the next play, they sent him from the B gap, flushed Josh Allen out to force third down. The ways they're just throwing him at offenses because they know,

especially without Bosa, maybe he's the most just dynamic play-killing athlete on their entire defense. It is incredible how quickly that has come to be for the Chargers. I mean, just watching that guy, you're just like, he's just a different type of player. He's a different type of athlete.

He's on a level that the other guys in the field just do not reach. And we should have known that coming in, but how fast the Chargers have realized that is super impressive. It's unfortunate he plays for the Chargers and we're a week away from just he's got a foot injury. Stop. Don't do that. Oh, I'm sorry.

Oh, no, I'm the one that's doing that. Not the last five years of Charger football. I know. It makes me so sad. He's already so fun. I'm the one that came up with them somehow, always getting hurt and blowing leads and screwing everything up. We'll get to the bills a little bit later.

But one more thing about the Chargers, there was one of the Chargers were another one of these teams, where I was kind of worried about their offensive play caller and their offensive designs. They're doing a lot of cool stuff where they put Melvin Gordon and Echlor on the field at the same time. Yeah, I like that. They brand this one play where they had Gordon lined up as a single back,

and they had Echler as an H-back. So they had them on the field together, which they've done a lot of recently. And they ran a play-action pass where they put Gordon into the flat and they put Echler just a little bit deeper on a similar sort of outbreaking route. So it was like a flood to the right

with both of their backs. And Rivers just dumped it to Gordon. It made it a very simple completion and it was a nice game. But just that design in general, I thought was very cool. and also the Rivers touchdown to Melvin Gordon today. Holy shit.

The second one, the one that was like a wheel route up the left side line. Rivers, for all his ills, I'm not sure anyone can just put the ball exactly where he wants more than Philip Rivers, maybe except for Drew Brie's. Like that ball, he literally fitted into like a shoebox near the pylon. It was unbelievable. So let me tell you my thought on that. this. And I was impressed with the chargers and all that, but I sort of view playing the bills right now, like when the University of Miami plays Charleston Southern. And it's just like,

oh, look at the plays they're running. Everybody's healthy. But I'm not drawing many conclusions from the situation here. I don't blame you. I think that's a proper response. All right, let's move on stock down this week. Let's start with kickers. Just Just kickers in general. It has been a brutal start to the season, and this week felt especially bad. Very, very collegiate. Oh, yeah. I saw your tweet today.

It was very spot on. Let's start with what happened in Minnesota, or excuse me, in Green Bay with the Vikings and the Packers. Daniel Carlson misses three field goals, including a 35-yard game winner, which who do we think is the most tortured kicking fan base in the NFL right now. Is it still the Chargers? No,

no. Well, first of all, it's the Bill is forever. Oh, yeah, that's fair. It's the bills forever

and ever and they can never lose the title. All right. Yes. So I guess the current version. There's a second tier. I would say the Chargers have not missed a recent kick

in the playoffs as traumatic as the Vikings have. The Vikings are number one. Yeah. The Vikings are in the, they've got the ball. position. They've got like the silver,

you know, like some of the boxing organizations have a silver belt. That's, that's what the Vikings are and the chargers are the number one contender for the silver belt.

The super champion is always going to be the Buffalo Bills. It was such a bizarre. They've unified all the belts. It was such a weird end to that game. When they gave the ball back to Rogers, I mean, I tweeted a dragon gif after he made the throw to Allison

where he rolled out to the right, essentially got them in field goal range to win the game. I was like, God damn it. Rogers did it again. Like, what are we doing here? And then Crosby misses the field goal. And then the Vikings get to pull back. Overtime unfolds how it does, which was, again, a strange, like, stretch of football.

And then they get in position for Daniel Carson to game winning 35 yard or he misses it. Well, so one of the things about Carlson that is unique to this situation is that he was a fifth round pick. But I think in general, you can point. to a lot of these miskicks with NFL teams have gotten so ruthless for really no reason about the salary cap. There's two NFLs now. There's the guys that make $20 million. Then the guys on split contracts whose money isn't guaranteed if they get hurt, even though they're on the league minimum. And I mean, it's pretty brutal to be a bottom of the roster NFL guy. I know that most people in America are not going to take pity on them, but I think from a labor standpoint,

they're getting screwed in a lot of ways. And I think that a lot of lot of these special teams guys bear the brunt of that. And they get cut, you know, just to not have guaranteed money, all this stuff. And I think that paying your kicker as little as possible has become a mainstream team building tactic. You saw it with Dallas where they just cut Dan Bailey for no reason. And they don't want to pay their kicker to $3, $4 million a year. And that starts to show up with Carlson. Again, he's a fifth round pick. They've invested in him. But it is a salary thing. It's better to pay him, better to pay Gallagher Carlson fifth round money than it is to sign a veteran for two or three million dollars. Kai Forbath was still there in the preseason.

They weren't going to keep him because Kai Forbath is expensive. And you start to see that rear its head once season starts. Kickers matter. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, kicking lost the game from Minnesota today. I felt like the rest of their team played well enough to win. You know, that game is a tie. Obviously, you know, you see the points on the scoreboard that the Packers put up.

but one of those is a block punt. I mean, they really did hold Rogers in check enough. I thought the cousins was awesome today. I mean, he made some throws in that game just like, wow, definitely.

Yeah, the second half, that's what I'm saying. I mean, the throw to Thielen was unbelievable. I mean, he has made just some ridiculous, tight window throws over the first two weeks.

I feel that was that, was that throw to feeling that, I don't know, there were about 20 things that could happen on that play, and like two of them were good. That is an unbelievable throw. It was an unbelievable throw, but I mean, if someone turns their head, it's a much different situation. I looked at that a million times and I can't tell if it

was a good throw or a lucky throw. Oh, I thought it was amazing. I think that line is very thin. I love I love Kirk Cousins. Don't get me wrong. I know the line, but the line is very, very thin on that throw. It was a risky throw paid off. So good for him. Yeah, I thought that was an unbelievable throw. He's made some really great touch throws in the first two weeks. All right, let's move on. Let's to another team that had some kicking woes on Sunday, but also has some has some woes in other areas as well. Stock down, the Cleveland Browns offense. Oh, boy. Although, oddly enough, it was a massive improvement from week one. In a way, yes. Tyrod Taylor went from seven sacks to three. He's no longer completing 37% of his passes. He's back, baby, and it looks like that.

Yeah, I, all right, here my Brown's thoughts. One. The Zane Gonzalez thing is very unfortunate. Next. I mean, for the Browns to lose in heartbreaking fashion over the first two weeks, not win in heartbreaking fashion, I guess that's what I'd say. Yeah. I mean, just, good Lord. Two, is it time for Baker?

It depends what we think Baker can do differently. Now, what Tyrod has been doing is throwing deep balls really, really poorly. And what will the offense look like when Baker gets in there? You know, when I did the Patrick Mahomes. story on on Tuesday for the ringer one of the funny things was that the only player who throws deeper is tyrod taylor but the difference is tyrodt completes almost none of his deep passes and patrick holmes completes almost all of them and that's not an effective offense and so what do you do what are you going to go more conservative just to ease baker in because the the deep ball

stuff's not really working right now it's it i think that there's a lot of questions i would maybe go Tyrod a couple more weeks because he's done it. I think he's talented. I see if you can't figure it out. And then by Halloween you go Baker, if nothing's clicking. I like Tyrae-Taylor. I have liked Tyra-Rot-Taylor. I just have zero faith.

I just don't think they're going to make the playoffs either way. So you might as well make sure that there's the right situation for Baker. I just, I have no faith in Biss Brown's coaching staff to like get the most of the players in the field. And so like if Tyra-Rot-Tail, especially when he threw the pick, when he threw the pick to Williams who was just like, well, if Tyra O'O. Tso was going to throw the ball

to the other team, just put Baker in. Like, that's the entire point of having Tyra Taylor is to avoid turnovers. And so if you can't do that, then just, who cares? Just put Baker in and let's just,

let's do this. There's no reason not to at this point. And I, maybe that's an overreaction, but like, that was my kind of just knee-jerk thought as soon as I saw that ball. And then you give it a couple,

a few more weeks. Yeah, that's fair. I just like, I was really actually, I was curious about your opinion. I wanted to hear why wouldn't we go to Baker? I think there's a reason not to, but that thought started to creep into my mind this week.

The third issue with the Brown's offense, let's talk about Josh Gordon for a second here. What is going on? Generally. Well, I mean, it appears, I don't know. What is the latest and most official info? He heard his hamstring during a promotional shoot.

That is my, that's what the brown said. I don't know. And then there's some weird dark web rumors that sort of help those rumors along and fill it out. But I'm not ready to figure it is a very murky situation. Yeah, it's very murky. A McCabe had a report that was a little bit different and it was about he wasn't himself. That was, it was all very, it was a very strange weekend.

I was at a wedding with a bunch of people from Ohio, a bunch of Cleveland fans. and it broke during the open dancing. I was also at a wedding last night when the news broke. So we're in the same boat here. Yeah. So, I mean, it's a very strange situation. What I know is that the Browns and John Dorsey and Hugh Jackson, you know, as Gordon said in his statement, you know, they've, they have, or as Dorsey said in his statement, they have supported him. And I don't know what would have happened for that to change after two weeks of the NFL season.

but I'm extremely intrigued, A, to see, to kind of hear the different stories that come out, and then be where he goes. Because Tony Grossy reported, you know, maybe Baltimore as a candidate, Dallas will find out more on Monday if he's traded. And that seems to be the most likely, according to the people who know things right now. Yeah, because it doesn't, there's no suspension that's imminent. So essentially, I think it's just the Browns are like, we're done with this. We're done with a headache. So if he can play, it feels like he's. worth trading for because he's going to cost the team nothing except the draft capital this year,

more or less. So we'll see what happens. Yeah, I mean, it depends with the pick. It depends what the pick is. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, it's, I wouldn't pay to trade a third round pick for him, but I'd trade a maybe a fifth, maybe a sixth. I don't know. I mean, it just also depends on, it's almost like what we talked about with Malcolm Butler a couple weeks ago when we were down in Nashville. You figure out what the hell is going on and you, you go accordingly. If the story doesn't bother you, you're going to be more apt to spend more draft capital. Totally. So we'll monitor that as it moves forward.

We'll talk about that next week, I'm sure. Stock down, the level of patience in Philadelphia right now. I want to talk about this very briefly. Again, I'm giving as much credit as I can to the Tampa Bay offense, to mock into Fitzpatrick, to all those guys. I'm just worried that we're going to be in a spot now over the next few days. The Eagles are one-in-one. Their offenses look shaky.

at best for most of this season so far. And they're going to try to throw Wents back out there maybe before they should. Is that an overreaction or do you feel like that's a legitimate possibility? So Jeff McLean kind of wrote the thank you, Nick Foles for your service, but we're moving on thing. That seems to be the prevailing thought in the Philadelphia media. And it's a long week for the Eagles. They have Indy next Monday night. Indy would be the type of defense you want to ease Carson Went into in a perfect world.

now this is a doctor decision it is hard for us to sit here and say he's ready he's not ready doeshaun watson came back from an ACL that was a month before cars and wences and what's hard for me is to divorce what watson looks like from his offensive line because i don't know he seems hesitant he seems like he's not himself but he's also getting hit every time he drops back that could just be an offensive line thing i think the psychological thing is as important as the physical thing. I remember the word on Carson Palmer when he came back from his post-Bangle ACL was that he just wasn't stepping up into the pocket and he was getting nervous. And he didn't have a lot of faith in the sort of the leg movement, even though Carson Palmer was,

you know, never Robert Griffin the third back there. But, you know, he did have pocket movement and he lost that briefly. And you saw his game dip a little bit and obviously recovered after that. So it comes down to how comfortable you think he can be right away. And that's what I'll be watching. And if they think he's ready and I think he can be 100%, I say by all means, throw him out there. But it could be if he's just, if he's literally cleared for contact this week,

and that's the first time he can actually step out there and he hasn't done as much as maybe he should, then I think you might see a little bit of awkwardness and weirdness and Monday night against Indianapolis. I have all the faith in the world, Carson once, we'll figure it out. I have all the faith in the world, incidentally, that he will one day be one of the best quarterbacks in the league because he was last year.

Maybe that's not this year. Maybe it's next year, but he will rise to that MVP level again. I have no doubt about it. I feel like they need a spark. I don't know if it's the smart move to put him out there, but I am starting to feel like we're going to see him out there next Monday night against the Colts. All right. One more stock down.

Top five running backs. I want to talk about this very briefly. today was very much an indictment of drafting a guy in the top five at that position. We had a Jaguars team that managed to kind of beat up the Patriots. Blake Bortos through four touchdown passes. Their offense has not taken a single step back when they have not had Fournet over the first two, like season and two games that he's been there. So almost 20 games total. And then again, the Giants just could not move the ball against the Cowboys today.

The Cowboys are not exactly the Jacks. So it just feels like for all the, and this is sort of a different thing, and we'll get to this in a second, but David Johnson doing absolutely nothing for the Cardinals. Obviously, David Johnson's a third round pick, but David Johnson's got paid double digit million dollars a year to play running back.

This has been a really tough, it was a really tough week for people that are in the corner of, we need guys at that position that are difference makers. Yeah, you know, It's interesting, Scott Pyankowski, who I think does a great job. He had a little Twitter back and forth, Warren Sharp tonight. And both of those guys, Warren Sharpe's perhaps the smartest thinker of our game on Twitter that there is. And he was obviously talking about how ridiculous some of the teams established the run philosophies are.

And so Scott Payonowski replied to him and made a good point, which is that Fournette being out sort of saved the Jaguars from themselves because they were able to. to stay aggressive throughout the game. I think when Fournette is there, these teams, you only draft running back high if you want to be conservative. You know, if you want to be the ground and pound team. And if you can't do that and you literally don't have the guy you drafted to be conservative,

that's only going to help you because being conservative is how you lose. Running the ball is how you lose. And I do think there's something to that. You know, I don't think, I wouldn't necessarily say that it's, you know, the fact that they're what four and oh with that learned four and a i i wouldn't that's still

a fairly small sample size but i do sure there's a little bit of something there yeah i feel like there's a lot to explore i mean i think that there's the right way to use a running back i think that if you marry the passing game and the running game if you use play action effectively all that stuff there's a way to make those guys valuable i just think it's been a really tough couple weeks, especially when you kind of lump in the Levyon Bell stuff with this, how the Steelers have been able to move the ball even without Bell. It just feels like it's been a tough go of it for people that just say you need to pay for running backs. They're valuable. We need to spend on them. Before we move on, let's take one more quick break. Today's episode is sponsored by

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Let's move on here. Let's get to the challenge flags of the week. We're going to throw two of them. Let's start with Vante Davis retiring at half time of the Buffalo. Bill's game. I mean, we've all wanted to do that at some point. Sure. He's living the American dream.

So it's kind of funny. Everyone agrees this is like one of the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to a franchise. Yes. I saw, you know, I saw a couple weird takes. I think we all were just like, this is funny and also very sad. And that became the mainstream take.

There were a couple of dissenters who went with like football is evil, good for Vante Davis. Yeah, that's bizarre. That was, no, that would, let me tell you something. That I'm, I'm as, I'm as careful as anybody with the sport and what it can do to people. That ain't the take, chief. That's not it. That's not it.

Alante Davis, you know, I saw Nick Groke, a former Broncos writer, had a pretty funny take where he said that just the amount of time it takes to get the pads on, like the tape. Like, it's really hard to get ready for a football game. And the fact that he was able to do that and then just quit after that. is kind of impressive. They crafted the statement in like 20 minutes. I mean, that was a notes. That was a notes app, right? Thing?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. That was then crafted. Oh, his agent had that drafted. Like, yeah. My guess on that is he talked into the notes app and then he sent it to his agent and his agent. By the way, the photo of him was on the Colts in the statement. What is, what, what, I mean, look, I, I don't want to watch the bills.

but they give you they give you $3.5 million guaranteed. How much you have to be paid to watch your bills for a year? To be on the bills

or to watch them? No, no, no. To watch 16 games to bills football and all the practices. Oh, all the practices. That's what he has to do.

He sounds right. Yeah, but that's what he has to do. I've watched the bills game today. Yeah, I didn't. You heard me during the Darwin James segment. But I mean, that was a joke.

I watched a little bit of it. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's ridiculous. It's a low point for a franchise, I didn't think he could get lower. I actually thought it was kind of classy

from guys like Lorenzo Alexander who just said, yeah, this happened and then didn't slander him further. You wouldn't get that in a lot of locker rooms. Yeah, I mean, just general weirdness. They could lose every game. I agree.

It's very much in play. Like, they are unfathomably bad. Is the players parking lot, like, open during halftime? I have no idea how this went. I guess it's very, Players parking lots are very, like, heavily gated. And so, he would have had to have asked a security guard.

Oh, somebody moved a cone for sure. And sometimes they're double parked, because everyone obviously moves at the same time. I have a lot of logistical questions about this. What did he do? Where did he go? Everything about this is curious. Everything about this is worth asking about. Are we going to read a TikTok of this by Seth Wickersham in six months?

I hope so. I mean, this is interesting. I just want to fill in the gaps here. He woke up this morning. Did he know he was going to quit? It seems like no based on the statement, but who knows? I don't know about that. I mean, you have to be leaning towards it.

You can't just randomly be like, I'm just going to leave. No, you're probably right. No, you're probably right. Let's do one more before we get out of here. And before we get to our last segment, I want to throw a challenge flag on just the idea of the San Bradford era in Arizona. Like, what are we doing?

It's, what is the point? Just put Josh Rosen in. So 17 of 20. 97, 90 yards in an interception, and David Johnson just no longer exists? Yeah, so worried about the play calling in Arizona. This is tweeted up by Graham Barfield. In 2016, David Johnson averaged 31.1 routes run per game, okay? And 19% target share and saw 38 air yards per game.

Weeks 1 and 2 this year, he's running 16 routes, which is half of what he ran two years ago. 18% target share, only 8.5%. 0.5 air yards per game. David Johnson is one of the best receiving backs in the NFL. If you do nothing else, you should be awake at night figuring out how to get him the ball in space.

Especially when you don't have any other receivers except for later. Yeah, that's correct. You have an empty wide receiver job chart. There's nothing there. There is no one else to throw the ball to except for Larry Fitzgerald and David Johnson.

How are you doing that? I mean, like, what are you doing if he's not a huge part of your passing game? Can we tell the people how many times you had to say Larry Fitzgerald before you nailed it? Larry Fitzgerald, David Johnson is too many soft continents for me. Consonance for me at 11.06 p.m. This was a, that was the Daniel Carlson. Good Lord. Of pronunciations for you.

This is the nature of the podcasting after dark elements of what we're doing every Sunday. day is me not being able to say J's and G's at a certain point. All right. We'll talk more about Rosen, I'm sure as we move forward here. I sure is how hope we are. I can't do Sam Bradford anymore. I guarantee you that'll be a storyline over the next week or so. But before we get out of here, let's hit what we think tomorrow.

Can I spend 10 seconds on John Gruden doing the we got to get more pass rush thing again? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. One more challenge for I got on John Grud. It's a bit now. It's clearly a bit. It's clearly a gag. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. He was like, maybe we're going to blitz more because we need more pass rush. If you trade one of the three best pass rushers in the NFL, you can't complain about your pass rush for at least two years. I think he's on. He's making us laugh.

He's repaying his buddies in the media who's supported him by giving him $7 million a year for the last decade. Before we get out of here, let's predict this week's headlines. I feel like something we're going to hear a lot about in the next 24 of 48 hours is Bill O'Brien's tenuous future in Houston. How do you feel? Yeah, Bill O'Brien is 0 and 2 now. I feel, you know, part of the problem with getting a lot of control is that you got nobody else to blame. We saw that with Chip Kelly in Philadelphia. Greg Bishop wrote that incredible

story about Rick Smith a couple weeks ago, which I thought was really well done about his sort of football exile. And it's Bill's show right now. And unfortunately, the new regime spent less than 15 minutes looking at the offensive line. I don't know. I mean, there's like eight months in an offseason. Didn't seem like they spent much time on the O line. Them losing out on Nate Soulder is a season-changing thing. Yep. I mean, just the cascading effect that that has and having to go to Rankin and Davenport as their two tackles, it's going to show up the entire year. I mean, Watson is running for his life on most of these plays. The offense is completely unsettled. Teams are just saying, we're going to put two guys on DeAndre Hopkins and dare you to beat us.

and they just don't have it. It is going to be such a frustrating experience. I talked to a NFL position coach other day. I had nothing to do with John Der Hopkins. He's not in the division. He is not, obviously not with the Cowboys. And he was like,

have you ever noticed that DeAndre Hopkins, just the rules and the league rules don't apply to him with contact? Oh, they just draped on him on every play. Like, no one ever is like, hey, we should throw a flag on this.

It's just like, oh, it's Johnra Hopkins. No, no, want. It's the only player like that in the entire league. It's a bad recipe. I mean, the touchdown throw to Fuller today was impressive. I feel like they're going to have some spectacular plays just with the talent they have on that offense period. But it is going to be a really frustrating

year for that offense in general. I mean, watching them with that offensive line is just going to make me want to pound my head against the wall. Let's get Watson out of there. Just done. Just trade them. Just pull them out. That's going to be our next league intervenes thing. At the very at least, he just, just shut him down. Just let him leave the team and go hang out and go with like a private coach for a year. Yeah, he'll pull the Vante next week. I'll just walk

out at halftime. That's the move. Yeah. No, just like get better for a year. Do like the yeah, and then just come back. We'll fix the offensive line. Go on vacation. Like that's a big, uh, like I just read Alex Ferguson's book like last year, the former Ventures Schneider guy. And he was like, his big thing after like the World

Cup was during the season. Just let, let guys go on vacation. Just like let the guys go because they need the rest. So Bill O'Brien just send them away, send Watson away for like four months, send them to Hawaii, bring them back next year, bring them back for OTAs. I'm good with it.

That works for me. All right, guys, that's all we have for tonight. Thank you so much for listening. We will be back on Thursday as we will be all season. Thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer podcast network.

Today's episode was sponsored by ADT. ADT can design and install a smart home just for you. backed by 24-7 protection. Complete with features like Game Day service, an ADT automation that unlocks the front door for friends who arrive at your place for the game while you're still out getting snacks. Or Home Run service,

which lets you check in on your home's cameras even while you're in the nosebleeds. All from the ADT app or from the sound of your voice. Visit ADT.com slash smart to learn more about how ADT can design and install a secure smart home just for you.