The Ringer NFL Show - Mailbag: Trey Lance, Jonathan Taylor, Fake Trades, and More! | Extra Point Taken

Episode Date: August 25, 2023

Sheil and Ben discuss the latest news on Trey Lance after he was named QB3 in the San Francisco 49ers' depth chart. What’s next for Lance? Will Jonathan Taylor remain a Colt despite not being signed long term yet? Plus, what’s the realistic expectation for Lamar and the Ravens? How will they adjust to Todd Monken’s offense? The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Ben Solak and Sheil Kapadia Producer: Cliff Augustin Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal and Conor Nevins Music Composed By: Devon Renaldo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Right now on the ringer gambling fee and all throughout the entire month of August, the East Coast bias boys are getting you ready to bet the NFL this season. We're going through each and every single division and revealing our favorite futures, predicting division winners, and even giving you some award winners. Do we think the Kansas City Chiefs will repeat or will they be the throne? Tune in now to find out on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Extra Point Ticket, Shield Kapati, joined by Ben Solac. on the ringer NFL feed.

We're switching it up today. Ben, you had a good idea. You said, you know what? If we're starting the expats, let's build some momentum with the expats. Let them have a say in the show. And let's do a little mailbag. We've been firing off takes.

Now this is a chance for them to yell at us. What do you think? I love it. We've done a mailbag on the Philly pod like 19,000 times because that's just, it's such easy stuff to do. Now, for the whole league perspective, I was like, all right, do a mailback for the expats, get questions about a bunch of different teams.

first like nine emails I got were about the Eagles. I was like, okay, we got to make sure it's clear. It's Ben and Shieldapod. We're doing a mailbag, but this time it's the national show. Got to get other teams in here. I got to say the expats showed up. We tweeted out the submission and the inbox started to fill up. You know, sometimes you ask for the questions and it's like the next day and you're like,

all, I have three questions. I like one of them. I don't know that this is going to be a great mailback. Now, if you're not on social media, first of all, great job by you. So, second of all, you can always just email one of us with your question. A lot of you did that. Some of you submitted those questions. And many of you know the Cardinal Rule, even if you weren't listeners of the Philly Special Mailbags, you know, if you want to get the question in, open with a nice, hey, Ben and Shield. Oh, yeah. Love the pod. Great. Absolutely. Really enjoy it.

So good. Look forward to every day. Questions coming in the mailbag if we get one of those intros. It's a little pro tip. It's a little coaching point right there for you. Always with the intro. Very nice. Yeah, I would say two things. One is a compliment. It doesn't have to be for the show.

If you're just like, shield that hat you were wearing was fantastic. I saw the video clip, something like that. That's in my wheelhouse. And then two is, if you submit a question from like another country, I'm always, almost always just so flattered that I'm like, all right, we're getting to this person. So those are the two. All right. I've picked out 10. Good topics, I thought.

Good variety of questions. Let's get into them. Number one, Chris asks, hey, Sheel and Ben, love the show. There you go. Keep up the great work, gents. My quick question is I'm wondering why Ben has dug in his heels on the Chris Ballard disrespect. Ben was adamant that the Colts would hire Saturday.

Then the Colts went ahead and secured Shane Stuyken, which seems like great process. Ben was adamant that the Colts would draft Will Levis. then they went ahead and they drafted Anthony Richardson, which seems like great process. Ben, do you believe people can change for the better as Ballard has? What's up, man? Ben, explain yourself. What do you got? Yeah. So Ballard, it's always one of those things of like, you have an opinion on a guy and it's here, right? And it's just like a flat line. It's just a straight line. But then public opinion of him massively vacillates. And so it goes up and down, above and below the line. there was that moment where like the Colts were just off of the the Shaq Leonard Quentin Nelson

draft they had Braden Smith playing tackle from him he was the second round pick the Kenny Moore draft like Jonathan Taylor they had a stretch where they were just everybody they were taking and all these guys outside of the first round too and they were just hit and hit and hit and and in that time like Chris Bowler won an executive of the year and it was like wow look at how well the Colts are drafting now obviously he's also coming back off of the Andrew Luck we're which as we record this today, it's Thursday the 24th. This is the four-year anniversary of the Andrew Luck retirement. So he's drafting and he's rebuilding and he's reloading coming off of like a franchise quarterback retiring. It's kind of nuts. That was really good from Ballard. But then there started

to be this idea of like, man, Ballard's got the entire league handled. Like this is this is like he's the best drafter. It's like, well, drafting is a luck thing. Like we can't put too much into this. Like, it's really hard to draft consistently well year over year. The second thing that started to happen was there was this idea of like, wow, like, Chris Ballard is being patient and is refusing to, like, invest in a young quarterback until he knows he gets his guy. Like, Ballard had a quote that he gave, I want to say it was now two drafts ago to local media where he was like, if I draft a young quarterback and he ain't good, I'm going to be the first guy you guys run out of the building, which is he's a king. He's a leader in my clubhouse of the second job is to win a championship. The first job is not win a championship. The first job is keep the job.

And Chris Ballard knew that when he was cycling in Jacoby Brissette into Philip Rivers, into Carson Wentz, into Matt Ryan. The first job is to keep the job. A draft a rookie and he's bad, he's absolutely right. Most of those GMs take a rookie in the first round. He doesn't pan out. They get fired pretty much right away.

And so good drafter, but that was getting over pumped up. And then he was getting a lot of credit for like smart team building when in reality, like he was just kind of pushing the buck a little bit, pushing the problem down the hill a little bit of the Colts quarterback situation. And then you get to this point where like everything kind of implodes for the Colts.

And that's why when you go back and you look, okay, like Shack Leonard's such good drafting, Quentin Nelson's such good drafting, Brandon Smith, Jonathan Taylor, such good drafting. Well, for all those guys rookie windows, all they did was try to one-year mercenary at a quarterback. All they did was like, okay, like, get Philip Rivers in here, get Carson Wentz here, just going to solve a problem and go. And they wasted those rookie windows of those players. Now Quinn Nelson's been hurt. He's not been as good since he had the foot injury.

Jack Leonard, obviously, he has had injury problems, and these guys are now super expensive. They got a contract problem with Jonathan Taylor going on, right? The offensive line play fell off. And then the drafting starts get a little bit less lucky, right? Like, the next era of early picks is your Michael Pitman's and your Quitty Pays and your Deo O'D Yangbo. And like, Pittman's a great example of like he drafted Pittman top 40.

And everybody was like, here it is another Ballard success. Incredibly, he's great. Pittman's been fine. Like, he's been solid. But he, like, on the scale of rookie receivers, on the scale of how old young guys produce, we're, we kind of pumped this guy up because he was a Ballard dude. And then the reality of things, he's just like a solid player, right?

And so, like, I thought Ballard laid a good foundation for the team and recovered nicely from the luck era. But I don't think he maximized it. And when you see a winning opportunity as a gym, you have to get aggressive if you're really going to go win that championship. And instead, he kind of sat on the job. And again, I don't blame the guy for it. But that's my, like, estimation of Ballard. And so at the peak of his, his, like, media hype, I was kind of like the anti-Ballard guy.

the fact that he talked Jim Ursay off of Jeff Saturday as a permanent head coach, huge, incredible. For whatever role he played in that, huge flowers, awesome. I think Shane's Degin is a great hire, significantly better. For whatever it was, you know, Urse is a huge QB mobility guy, Ballard and his staff doing evaluations, whatever got them on Anthony Richardson, great, excellent. I absolutely would have invested in Richardson, who was, I think, a higher ceiling, more worthy of a dice role than it was Will Levis, who like I thought everybody was going to take Will Levis. All anybody would talk about for a month before the draft was how highly ranked

for the Levis was and then stuff hit the fan during draft night. That wasn't real. And so, so I was absolutely, I was wrong on the Levis thing. I was very wrong on the Saturday thing. I thought Ursaid was going to slam that higher through no matter what. So credit to Ballard for the role that he played in that.

But like I said, like I think in general, I'm like Ballard's a solid GM. And there was that time where he was getting huge love and that was probably too much. And now he's probably a little bit of a more of a lame duck GM. and he's got to deal with some issues on ownership, but he's still overall, like, over the course his career, like a solid drafter and a solid roster manager. And I'm not surprised that he's able to handle Ursa well enough to maybe get out of some of those sticky corners. So kudos to him

on that. I can't believe how much you had to say about Chris Ballard. Like, I was going to cut in there time with follow up questions. And I'm like, he really has a lot to say about Chris. Like, I couldn't, if you asked me to talk about Chris Ballard, I would give you 30 seconds. This is a But I know you've written, you've written about the Colts, I feel like, quite a bit in recent years. So all these thoughts have been on your mind, I guess. And I did, I did. I saw this question last night. We said them over. I didn't know research. Because I can do the Colts draft history off the dough, man. Because like, there was a stretch there like 2020, 2020, 2021, 2022, where like every single off season, I wrote a piece about Chris Ballard and the Colts.

And I was like, I don't know what we're doing here. But we're just like, you know, it's generally just too patient of team building. right? If we want to take it from a five minute answer, make it a 30 second answer. I think the team building was too patient. And now you're in this Anthony Richardson era. And let's say Richardson's good and they have a solid quarterback on a rookie contract. I hope you learned a lesson. And we can't be too patient this time. We have to get aggressive. Get some stars in the building, compete and try to win a championship. I think that's a fair criticism. I felt the same way when they had those teams, like they would just be sitting there in free agency. Now, they did make, they made some aggressive moves as a quarterback. They made an aggressive move to

trade for DeForest Buckner. But it always felt like, wait, this is the roster you're going into the season with and you have cap space. Like, why aren't you doing more things? And they'd always be, oh, well, we have to extend so and so and so and so. And it's like, yeah, other teams have to extend those players, too, but they still find a way to be aggressive and add more talent to the roster. So I actually think that's a very fair criticism. Now, I will say this. I have the most boring GM take, and that's that, like, I think almost every GM in the league is pretty much the same. Like, I think there's all very little separating them. I think so much of these things are ownership.

questions over GM questions. Like, I don't know what kind of budget GERSA was giving Chris Ballard. Now we're looking at it. It's like, wow, Jim Mersey is publicly the most unhinged donor in the NFL. What was he like privately all those years with Chris Ballard? Like maybe Chris Ballard was doing an amazing job

given the parameters he was working with. So I will say that's something you don't always know the details of. I mean, I think the GM job in 23 is really a leadership position you need to just talk to scouting. You need to talk to analytics. You need to talk to coaches. You need to talk to the owner. You have all these different factions within your organization. You need to have good relationships

with all of them, build up trust with all of them. And then ultimately, you're the one, in most cases, making the final decision. So, yeah, I feel like Chris Ballard is fine. Like, if you were to GM another team, maybe he would do a good job. I don't think he'd be a train wreck. I'm not like, I agree with you. He was getting gassed up quite a bit during that stretch where he was being kind of placed above other GM. So I think you're right about that. I don't think that's a straw man. But yeah, I think he's fine.

I think in a general rule is if like a GM is being really hyped by the media, he's probably not that good. Like, he's probably good. Executive of the year is on your radar. I was going to, I'm like, this guy has like the executive of the year's memorizing. You're just waiting for an executive of the year to then flop so then you can crush them. I kind of like it. I'm going to start doing that.

That sounds fun. Here's a thing. The award shield, it's not hard. Most of these guys get fired. Like I don't... They always get fired. The Trent Balke into Ryan Grigsin, into John Dorsey, into Mike McCagnan, into Reggie McKenzie,

like all of these dudes lost their jobs within like two years of getting the award. But in general, it's just right. It's, it's GMing, managing a team is making a lot of calculated risks. You're trying to make positive expected value decisions, but inherently that's going to invite a lot of risk. The one guy who's dice land hit. his way in the year 2023, that'll become the GM Dejure. That'll become the guy, right? Like, right now it's Howard Roseman. Ask any Eagles fan how they felt about Howard Roseman,

like, after the Jalen Hertz pick, ask any Eagles fan how they felt about Howard Roseman in like the second year of whence, like before they had the incredible season where they like the wide receiver room was a problem. Like, like it, you're, you get hot for a year and then you kind of fall to the wayside for the next new guy. It's a hard thing to nail down the quality of it. I agree. And that's the other reason why I say ownership plays such a role. like that Ballard quote, I agree, that was such a telling quote. And like, others have sort of hinted at that type of thing. Like, if I, if I draft a quarterback and he stinks, you guys are going to kill me and I'm fired. Now, that's probably true in Chris Ballard's situation. And Howie Roastman's situation, like, that's probably not true. You know, he's emboldened by Jeffrey Lur, the owner, to take risks. He took Carson Wentz. Carson went. Carson played well. Then they gave him a big contract. Then he didn't play well. And they traded him. Like, most GMs do not. last that type of cycle where you draft the quarterback, pay the quarterback a lot of money, and then decide, shoot, we got to move out of this quarterback. This quarterback stinks. And so,

so much of it depends on organizational stability, how much is the owner involved? What does the owner want from the GM? Do they want you to take risks? Are they like, we don't, you know, necessarily want to do that? You're not going to last if this doesn't work out. So a lot of factors at play there. All right. Question number two. Rob, does high shield and Benjamin? Does anybody call you, Benjamin? Does your mom call you Benjamin? When she's mad at me, yeah. Okay, just when she's mad at you. Are there, maybe I'll start doing that when I'm mad at you. Benjamin, the Falcons are not winning there. That would really, that would highlight the, uh, the nice little podcast, two-man game we've got going on here of, of adult in the room and kid in the room. Hi, Sheila and Benjamin.

Are there any end of camp trades like Chauncy Gardner Johnson to Philadelphia last year that you would like to see happen? It can be as realistic. or fanciful. Love that word. Fancy. Fanciful. As you'd like, thanks for the excellent show.

Now, I will just say some guys who are out there right now, Jonathan Taylor. I don't think we've discussed specifically. I know I think Nora and Stephen did discuss it. We haven't discussed kind of what's his market. Where might he go? So we can touch on that with this question.

And the other guy who's sort of on my radar, like, are we 100% sure Chris Jones is going to be back playing for the Kansas? City Chiefs this year. Just like of all the holdouts, that's the one where like Andy reads get a little snippy about him. Chris Jones, if you didn't see, he responded to just a random person who asked him how long he's going to hold out.

And I think he just responded week eight was his whole tweet there because that's where you still get credit for the year. I think if you show up in week eight. So those were a couple of guys I had kind of top of mind. But take it anywhere you want with this question. Yeah. Chris Jones, like, I didn't include Chris Jones. I thought about including Chris Jones.

There's a little voice in the back of my head that was like, if someone had come up to me before the Tyreek Hill trade, like 24 hours beforehand, been like Tyreek Hills about to be traded, I would have been like, no. So it's not a, it's a non-zero percent chance. Jonathan Taylor, I,

maybe it's because I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I'd like to see him be a Miami dolphin. I'm here down right, I'm in Miami right now. It makes a lot of sense for the team. I really think it does. They need their traditional running game to improve. They had good production out of

Rahe Moster and Jeff Wilson last season just because of the light boxes that you get and how pass happy the team is and the way defenses are playing you, you introduce to Jonathan Taylor. You can really actually win by running the football. You can become now like truly multifaceted and multifarious in a way that this offense desperately needs to. They were two one dimensional last year. He solves a lot of your problems. He can make sense as a long-term addition and he can also make sense as a one-year rental, right?

Where you bring him in and the next season you let him walk. You have to resign Christian Wilkins and extend him. you have to extend Zach Seeler. And so you're not going to be active in free agency anyway. You can get a compic back for him. So I like Jonathan Taylor. Hold on now. I think that's a big question with Taylor.

Do you think he's at the point where he says, if I just want to get out of here and I'm fine playing somewhere, playing out the final year of my deal and then figuring it out next season or as part of the deal with the trade is that no, no, no. If you trade for Jonathan Taylor, like he wants a new contract right now. I think that's kind of an unanswered question. I think you're probably right. he seems fed up with Indianapolis.

And so, yeah, maybe if he goes somewhere, maybe they agree, hey, you can't tag me after the season as part of the trade or something like that. Like I'll play, because he's very, he's making $4.3 million this year. Like it's an affordable running back to add for pretty much any team in the NFL. I think it's just a matter of, well, as part of that trade, as he's saying, no, no, no, you got to give me a big contract as part of this. Yeah, there are two things that I think. the first is that Taylor, like, this whole Taylor situation started because Jim

Ursay was getting wild messy. And so, like, if Taylor's just like, I would like to not be employed by Jim Ursay and like just, you know, kind of middle finger to central Indiana as I leave, like, I would get that. And then the second thing is that I would say to him, you know, were I in his camp? And like, there was an offer from the dolphins on the table. I'd say like, hey, like, you get to Miami. Like, you're going to produce.

Like, it's very easy to run the football in this offense. Let's go put up 1,400 yards. and 11 touchdowns, let's go hit the market, you know, because Taylor had a down year last year, relative to his standards, you know, of relative to what he achieved two seasons ago, to just go and say, like, all right, go absolutely rip it up in Miami, and then we're going to be able to hit the market. Your point about the tag is all taken off.

Although I might say, hold on, I might say he might have a better chance to put up numbers. You think he definitely has a better chance to put up numbers in Miami compared to Indianapolis with the threat of Anthony Richardson there there and you compare the two offensive lines? Like, I don't know that it's... So we have to define numbers, right? Because whenever, like, like, when you and I talk numbers, we're talking like rushing yards over expectations, accessory per rush.

When agents and teams talk numbers, they talk like, total yards. Right. Touchdowns. And obviously they're looking at, they're looking at more specific stuff, like teams have analytics departments. They're, they're well caught up to all that. But in general, like, what I would, again, like, if I'm, if I'm in his camp, I'm saying, like, hey, you're probably going to get less volume, which isn't a bad thing. and you're going to be more efficient on a down-and-on basis.

And this offense is going to score a lot more, right, than the Colts is. The Colts is just that the offense is going to have a lot of three-dows. It's a better team, yeah. Exactly. Just straight out a better unit, better offense. And according to you're going to put more points on the board, you're going to have more opportunity for these show-out moments. You're going to place January.

Football potentially, like, I think it's a better spot for you. If you're, again, eyeing free agency. But yeah, the tag is an important note, right? Like, dolphins might like what they get from Jonathan Taylor and say, hey, congratulations, you're playing here next year for $10.04 million dollars. and I don't know if JT's going to take well to that. So Taylor to Miami is the one I'm rooting for right now. If he ends up a ram, I'm going to die laughing.

That's one of my trade options. What do you think compensation for, sorry to interrupt you, just compensation for Jonathan Taylor. So Christian McCaffrey went for a second, a third, a fourth, and a fifth last season. Now, Christian McCaffrey was under contract for additional years there. And there was, you know, like a Sean McVeigh. Kyle Shanahan back and forth reportedly to acquire his services. I think the equivalent of that, if you look at the different trade charts, it's kind of like a late first round pick when you add

all of those up. I think for Taylor, you're like a second round pick. Does that sound right to you when I was trying to figure it out? Okay. First, yeah, firstly, as a general note, all trade packages should be as easy to remember as the Christian McCaffrey trade packages. A two, a three, a four, and a five. I love that. No more this year's first next year. year's fourth, this year's fourth, and a conditional third. I can't remember all the numbers. Make it a pattern. I love this rule. This is it. No, we just stumbled on to something. You cannot skip a round. So if it's a second and a fourth, sorry, the three has to be part of the deal. We don't want to remember. You have to throw in the rounds in between. If that's annoying to you, like if it was a second

and a seventh and you're like, I'm not giving up three, four, five, and six. All right, then make it something else. Right. And me in the middle, make it a fourth and a fifth. Like, I don't know. You got a two fours. it's got to be the same number, there's got to be an order, like help out the friends in the media. I'm on board with it. Make trade packages easier to understand. So I like,

I like a day two pick for Jonathan Taylor. I think that you can make it conditional pretty easily, right, where you basically like, if you're the Colts, you say like, okay, you know, we'll take this pick.

But if he rush us like 1,500 yards and 10 touchdowns for you guys, like, we would like some more, please, because we don't want to be that embarrassed. And you as the acquiring team, you're like, yeah, if he rushes the first,

for 1,500 for us. Yeah, you can have whatever you want, Tiger. Like, sure. They feel better with your second round pick instead of your third round pick over there. Why isn't every trade? Why doesn't every, isn't every trade conditional? Who loses on a conditional trade?

You want to just fix NFL trades on this podcast? Just forget the rest of the mailback and just fix trade? Because the trailer thing is so true. It's like, all right, it's going to be a floor of this, but it can get to a ceiling of this if he has a monster season. Who doesn't win there? Both teams, that's better for them. You're mitigating some of your risk.

Fans, media, you're like, oh my gosh. If he gets to 1,300 yards here, that moves up to a second round peck. I wonder if Mike McDaniel's going to take him out and put Rahim most, like, everybody wins in that. All right, another one. Exactly. I think we have fixed trades. Yeah, I think, right.

I think what it needs to be is, is there's a committee of like XGMs, X coaches, media members. That's like the trade value committee, the trade conditions committee, the TCC, we're calling them. And what happens is the Colts and the Niners, or excuse me, the Colts and the, whatever the name are, the dolphins, agree on a trade. we're going to send Taylor to Miami and then they come to the committee and they say, okay, what are the conditions

going to be? And we're like, okay, if he does X, Y, and Z, right? All pro, pro, right? All pro. First round pick. If he does this, this pro ball, second round pick. We lay out all the conditions.

And then you just spend the entirety of January, of December football, just trying to game the system as the coaching staff. What's more fun than that? Everybody's dialed in week 18 just who's going to hit

their contract incentives for production and who's going to hit their trade values. It'd be so fun. to make that like just to tag that on to the end of the season. We are solving trades in the NFL. All these ideas by way for free. League office that's listening in.

Just rate review and subscribe. That's all. Yeah. Send us an email. Okay. So my second player that I want to see get traded in camp. The Cardinals are on a bit of a fire sale. Isaiah Simmons goes for a seventh round pick to the New York Giants.

As we're recording right now, Office of Tackle Josh Jones got straight to the Houston Texans. I haven't seen compensation for that. literally just happened like five minutes ago. I didn't see that. Yeah. So the guy that I would be calling the Cardinals for, if I were a good team would be Buda Baker,

27 going to turn 28-year-old safety. He's on an extension for them, right? So it's got $13 million right now base salary. And then his deal is technically up at the end of the season. He has a restructure year that's holding some bonus money next year. So you're looking at a guy on an expiring contract, somebody that, you know, this Cardinals defensive staff, Jonathan Gannon, Nick Rallis,

didn't necessarily, they inherited him, they didn't obviously select him. Great player. I think the Green Bay Packers are an awesome landing spot for Buda Baker. Their safety room right now is in dire straits. They've been trying to replace Darnell Savage. He's now their best safety. That's not the way it usually goes when you're like, we need to get this guy off the field. They said today that they're going to start Rudy Ford, which is not where you want to be

as a team as a defense. I think they're a really good candidate for Buda Baker. I also think the chiefs are a great candidate for Buda Baker. that's a Steve Spagnolo defensive back if I've ever seen one. Line up in Blitz. Like an absolute banshee coming from depth. Good cover guy.

He can also play deep middle, rotate around. They just lost one Thornhill and Free Agency. Pair him with Justin Reed. I think there's a lot to like there. And so Buda Baker is a dude that I would definitely be calling the Cardinals about and I've seen them kind of sell the way that they are. And then the Trey Lance landing spot

that I like the most. If you're trying to find a home for the cast-off X-third overall pick, San Francisco situation. I think the Buccaneers are the best spot. I just think that's where you're going to get the most snaps. I don't mind the Falcons. And okay, if Ritter's bad, like, maybe throw him in there.

But I feel like they're much more likely to throw Heineke in and try to win games. So to me, like, I think the Bucks are the best possible spot. Like, Titans, Vikings, Texans. I don't think there's any snaps for him. And if you're acquiring Tray Lance, you have to be acquiring him on the theory that you're going to let him play. At some point, you're going to try to get him out there. Because if you're not going to put him out there, there's literally no point acquiring him. Like, he, all of the...

the Trey Lance questions are just totally unanswerable because he just has not played football. And so you have to get him out there and you have to get him reps. So the Buccaneers would be the team that if anybody's going to go acquire Trey Lance before camp cutdowns, which I'd be surprised if that happens. I think the Nader's going to have to hold him and then see what happens midseason. I'd say the Buccaneers are the team to do it. I think we disagree a little bit on Lance, but we have a Lance question later. So we'll get to it then. Buda Baker, they did kind of rework his deal a little bit. So he's signed through 2024. So he, it's this, yeah, it's this year and the following year. He got a little raise. He got a little incentives and bonuses this year.

It doesn't seem like they gave in a bunch, but he is signed for one more. They just did that in, in late July there. But that, listen, that doesn't mean he can't, he can't still get traded if some team comes calling. One of the two salary cap websites, does not have a base salary down for him in 2024. And so I thought it was just option stuff. But then the other one does. So I was just on the wrong one. And you guys can Google and find out which.

There you go. Let's say Chris Jones does become available. Some teams I wrote down. Would the Seattle Seahawks be interested? In a heartbeat. In a heartbeat. And they'd win the NFC. Absolutely.

Let's do it. Yeah. That was the first name. That was the first team I wrote down. I know Pete Carroll has been chasing that interior pass threshold. They signed Draymont Jones and Chris Jones

in there. Now you're talking a little bit with that defensive line. Draymond Jones or Cheninuosu and Blank is a front. Oh, mom, that's a front. Yeah. So that was one that I wrote down.

What about the Detroit Lions? Are they serious about like winning right now? I mean, they could use a little interior passphrase. They've totally got a bunch of young guys up there. Week one season opener revenge game for Chris Jones. Oh, I didn't even think. about that. Yeah.

Four and a half sacks against Patrick Mahomes, just a man on fire. Alie McNeil and what, like John Kaminsky, Isaiah Bugs. Yeah, I mean,

so it's weird because McNeil, who's their one good guy at defensive tackle, totally recomppped his body this year, dropped like 20 pounds to play three technique. So if you'll get Chris Jones,

you kind of go to Alim McNeil and you're like, hey, can you put all the mass back on? Yeah, you're like, go eat. Go have a meal, man. Thanks for your hard work. but don't sweat it. He'll be the happiest guy in Detroit. But yeah,

it's a little bit of a square fit, but the level of talent, which they desperately need on the defensive line, I think you can't argue with it. So they'd be interested for sure. And then my last one that, of course,

I have to bring up to you. Your boy, Howie, calls up his old boys, Andy Reed and Brett Veach, and says, just wondering, would you be interested in Jalen Carter

for Chris Jones straight up? Who says no? Oh, man. Chiefs get Jalen Carter on a rookie deal. Okay, they're paying that, you know. Do you some money for Chris Jones? I'm listening, don't worry about that. You can figure all, you can always figure out a salary cap stuff.

Don't worry about the money. Yeah, because you're signing to a new deal. You can pay $1 million this year if you want and give him a huge signing bonus that voids for the next 12 years like they always do. Okay, well, there's a defensive tackle who was recently on the Eagles, who just got a massive extension and they couldn't figure that out for him. Yeah. I feel like if they could do that and they wanted to do that,

they would have done it for Hargrave. I mean... I'm asking you who says no. Don't duck the question. I think, right? I was gonna, I was about to answer it. I think the Eagles say no. I think the Eagles would rather have the production on the rookie deal.

Because that's where they need to be financially right now. With the Super Bowl window open right now. He says stick with Jalen Carter. I had to ask you. That was, maybe we landed on the Seahawks. Now, I don't know what that would take. It would be certainly a first round pick and more. for Chris Jones, but hey, if the chiefs say, we're not paying you what you want to be paid.

Let's move on. Andy Reid has done that in the past. Yeah. There's one team that would be knocking down the doors, kicking doors, and screaming for Chris Jones, but they would never get them off the chiefs, and that's the bills. Correct. I was like, they're not trading him today. Yeah.

Yeah, I have the same thought. No. It's just Brandon Bean, just calling Brett Veach every hour on the hour. And every time he sees a Buffalo area code being like, nope. All right. Let's take, I mean, that was quite a long first segment for two questions. We're going to have to be a little quicker. Yeah.

Let's take a break and we will come back with question number three. Get ready for the NFL season with incredible offers from Fandual, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers can bet $5 and get $200 in bonus bets guaranteed. Plus, all customers who bet $5 will get $100 off NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube and YouTube TV. what are some of the bets I'm looking at? You know, I like the Seahawks over. If you've been listening to the pod, eight and a half wins.

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How many current NFL quarterbacks do you think could have started for the Eagles? and still kept the offense top eight or higher last year, assuming the relative health, defensive results, and schedule are the same as actually happened. So this is an interesting quite, we usually don't talk a lot of Eagles on this show because we talk a lot of Eagles on Philly Special, but I thought this was an interesting question because it gets to the heart of how much is Jalen Hertz doing for the Eagles offense? How much is the Eagles offense doing for Jalen Hurts? So I don't know if you've gone through yet or you want me to start on this one.

I mean, I was just going off the ringer's quarterback rankings. Check it out. QB rankings out the ringer.com. And like, I was going to go off the top. Let's, let's agree on the easy ones. Mahomes, obviously yes. Burrow, obviously yes. Josh Allen, obviously yes. Justin Herbert, obviously yes. I think that's the end of the obviouslylies, right? Well, no, this is interesting. So I had two others as obvious yeses and not Lamar Jackson as one of the obvious yes. Okay, well, you and I will disagree about Lamar Jackson. We have another question about Lamar Jackson later. I had Trevor Lawrence and Dak Prescott.

I think if those guys are quarterbacking last year's Eagles offense, like, again, it's not saying it's as good as, it's saying, is it top eight. I think it is top eight. And then I had most likely, probably yes, Lamar and I even had Aaron Rogers. Yeah, I was going to say Rogers is a guy that I would say with that level of talent, Devonte and AJ Brown and Dallas Goddard. Great offensive line. Yeah, that's top. eight. Okay. So that right there is how many guys? That's, all right. So we have, we have eight. And that's, that's actually where I landed eight now. Their other guy, I don't know, do you want to make a case for

Matthew Stafford, for Deshawn Watson, for Derek Carr, for cousins, for Tua, for Daniel Jones, someone, I mean, like, if you, if you wanted to come in hot and say, Daniel Jones could have had that eagle's offense in the top eight, I actually don't think that's nuts. Daniel Jones's Giants offense was, what, ninth last year? And they had nowhere near the level of talent. Jones is possible. You could make the case for it. So I felt good about those first eight were like locks,

I really feel strongly about it. But if a couple of those other guys you wanted to convince me, I would be like, yeah, okay, I could see that. I'm not going to argue with you. Yeah, I am. Daniel Jones is one where it's like, do I think it could be top eight? Yes.

Am I putting all the money in my bank account on yes or no? and I have to pick one, I'd probably pick a no, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. The two names that I thought of right away as like fence guys from me, where one, like actual healthy is really playing Kyler, right?

Like I think that Kyler in that Eagles offense, just in terms of like keeping the structure relatively the same, you lose a little bit on the quarterback sneak, like sure, because obviously hurts the squatting 600 pounds. I think still the short yardage game is working. I think the past, passing game is still working at extremely high level.

Like, to me, that, that's, that's a pretty nice, easy fit. And the skill sets are similar enough that I think it's going to work. So, Kyle is there. Very different in terms of setting the tone for the building reputation as like a grinder, all those things. But if we're talking just offensive efficiency, okay, I can get there. The stipulation of the question was everything else is the same, schedule, defense, offense.

So, like, that, to me, that's like, like, Jason Kelsey, AJ Brown. Everybody's still, like, grinding and, like, leave, you know, whatever. just like putting the skill sets in. So that, that's the guy. And then yeah, the other guy for me that I was thinking of with Stafford where like we just didn't see healthy Stafford last year.

I don't know if you're pulling in like how beat up is Stafford's elbow? Like what health of Stafford are we getting? But I don't want to have too short term of a memory to not remember what Stafford just recently looked like in that McVeigh offense where like the arm talent is still insane, right? The aggressiveness, the throwing the ball downfield. It's hard for me to think that a passing, that this pass protection with these pass

catching weapons and Matthew Stafford back there isn't just absolutely shredding the league to pieces. Just from a pure aerial attack perspective and running attack-wise, obviously a drop-up, but the Eagles should still be good because of the line. So, like, Stafford and Kyler are the ones where I started to think, like, probably still top eight. Like, Daniel Jones also, yeah, you're right,

belongs in there. Fields is an interesting one, but I think it's a no. I think it's a no. I mean, from a running game perspective, I would like to see it. But I think overall to know. But they were on opposite ends of the spectrum just in terms of negative plays last year. Again, totally different circumstances.

But like, you know, Jail and Hertz really took care of the ball, that kind of thing. And Justin Fields had the highest sack rate of any quarterback in the last 20 years. All right. So I think we land somewhere between 8 and 12 for that question. All right. Speaking of Lamar, Troy asks, my, says, my dad, as well as many of my other friends, are not nearly as high on Lamar as I am. because, quote, his playing style doesn't last, unquote, or they don't, quote, trust him on third

and seven when the defense knows he's going to pass, unquote. I've heard you guys, Rafe, many times about how Lamar is a very good passer, so I was wondering where this perception came from and why many rank Lamar below Jalen Hertz on their QB list when it seems like Lamar is better in almost every aspect from what I've heard. So kind of a multitude of questions in that one question from Troy, take it in any direction you like, and then I'll sort of give my take on those topics. Yeah, so it's, I think it like, we should start by saying that to a degree, it's understandable that like, the Lamar questions are understandable, right?

Like this, the presentation of this sort of a quarterback, right? First of you know, mobile quarterback, and then secondly, like a mobile quarterback who's slight, right? Who's like not like, you know, built like Cam, built like Jalen Hertz. is that okay, like they're not going to be as good in like traditional dropback situations where the the threat of them running is not nearly as as as legitimate, right? And then they're also going to have banged up like problems. They're going to have health issues because they're play style. Like these have been tropes for a long time and they've especially been true like for

mobile quarterbacks to the last like 10, 15 years. It's it's not borne out in the data and our perspectives on mobile quarterbacking, mobile quarterbacks are changing rapidly. We know now that like the majority of quarterback injuries happen in the pocket when the quarterback is immobile. And like when a quarterback is mobile and he's outside of the pocket, that quarterback will sustain injuries the way that running backs and wide receivers will sustain injuries, right? They're trying to cut or they take on contact. But it's not adding on. It's not a multiplying effect to the amount of times they get injured like relative to quarterbacks who's hanging out in the pocket.

Because it's not like they get the pocket injuries and then the out-of-pocket injuries. They escape the pocket. They avoid a lot of the pocket injuries because they're legitimate athletes who know how to fall. They know how to take contact. They know how to avoid contact and make it glancing. It's your Ryan Tannenhills and your Matthew Stafford and your Carson-Wencers. These guys who are like statues in the pocket and just take shot after shot after shot. Ben Rothesberger with the 19 ice packs strapped to him.

Those are the guys who are more legitimate injury risks on a game's lost basis because they don't have the responses to pressure that they need you to survive the pocket. Like that's what we see over data long term, right? So I think, like, Lamar injury perspectives, that's where you end up looking like. When you look at Lamar third down passing numbers, you get a guy who's still thunked, like, he's still like a legitimately good NFL passer, right? Like over the course of the last four seasons on third down, he's like between 10 and 20 among, among quarterbacks in most metrics.

He's not like a league leader, but he's not one of the worst. This in an offense that's been built for the running game, that's not been built for receivers to win in isolation. It's not been built with a variety of passing concepts. If you go from a film perspective and you look at Lamar when he's in traditional passing ideas or when he was at Louisville and he was running a Bobby Petrino NFL style pocket passing offense, this guy is a legitimate passer and always has been. The offense was not built to be in third and seven.

It was built to be in third and threes. Every time they were in third and seven, they didn't have the systemic solutions to solve that problem. It wasn't as much on Lamar's shoulders. And I think that's what we're going to see borne out a lot in Todd Monkin's season. So I want to like, again, like emphasize like, Lamar really truly does represent a changing perspective

on how we think about quarterbacking, right, and how we think about quarterbacks being mobile. Like there was a, there was a Cam Newton moment, and there was a Robert Griffin, the third moment, and there was a Colin Kaepardick moment, and like, in the 2010s,

we've been having, knocking up against this door, but then we had a cat get drafted 32 overall, and then the next season win MVP, right? Like, he was, Lamar was a legitimate sensation in terms of how we think about this position and how it's played. So it's going to be a thing where, like,

people default to their expectations for Lamar and how he plays and the running game that he needs to be in and say, like, these are the tropes. This is how we've always thought about these quarterbacks. Over time and over data collected over, like, lots of different quarterbacks, it really isn't true. Like, I think that, like I said, that's becoming more of like the prevailing mindset.

But this is a big limit test year for Lamar, especially on the third and sevens, having the passing down stuff. they're going to have a more traditional passing attack, they're going to have more traditional receivers. And I expect to see him be one of the better third down passing quarterbacks accordingly. That, however, remains to be found out. That remains to be emphasized. I got a ton of faith in it. I know that like, Sheel, you end up more so on like the, I want to wait and see perspective of it. So we'll see. This is a big year for Lamar.

Yeah, I like Lamar a lot. I think there are, you know, areas of football discourse where he gets discredited and is underrated. And I think there's areas where he get, like, I'm not at the point where I'm like 100% sure it's going to work based on kind of what you said. You know, we've seen this passing offense, you know, to Troy's dad or friends or whoever. Like it's not, those aren't wild takes because this passing offense at times in the last two to three years has looked completely disjointed where it's like, wait, did these guys just meet each other in the parking lot like 15 minutes before the game and are like, let's go play a football game.

Like it's looked completely disorganized. It's looked like they don't have answers when a defense is doing certain things. and so I think when you watch it on TV, especially if it's like a national TV game, I think those impulses are fair. I also think what you're saying is fair as well. How much of that is actually on Lamar Jackson when you look at the scheme he was playing in the surrounding talent or lack thereof at wide receiver? It's hard to look at it and say, no, no, they've put, you know, he's got great pieces around him

and he's the issue here. That's why this is going to be so fun to watch and play for a coordinator who's going to install this type of offense. So, I mean, Lamar has just accomplished. like we talk about all these other quarterbacks like Herbert and other guys. Like what Lamar has accomplished is way more than almost all these guys. And I know it hasn't been playoff wins, but he's through his age 25 season, he's won an MVP.

He has gotten the Ravens to the playoffs four times in five seasons. Ben, they have a, they're 45 and 16 in the regular season with Lamar as their quarterback. Now, we are not like a QB wins operation. Typically, I know they have good special teams and they've had good defenses. but come on. I mean, 74% of your wins with one quarterback over that period of time. Like, the quarterback is doing something right. He's already one of the most prolific dynamic rushing quarterbacks in NFL history.

And again, this is through his age 25 seasons. So I think that's why he's a fun player to watch this year and in years ahead. Now, is there a chance that we look at it and go, ooh, this passing offense still doesn't look great. And they added Todd Bunkin and they added Odell Beckham Jr. And it's like, all right, maybe there are some limitations here with Lamar, things he needs to work on to kind of get to that next level. Like, I think that's a possibility going into this season.

I wouldn't say it's likely. I think I've said my expectations for the Ravens could look a little ugly early in the season. I think as the season goes on, they're going to be a team where you say, okay, now things are starting to click if they stay healthy. So I don't know that we answered every aspect of the question, but I think that pretty much sums up how we feel about Lamar going into this season. All right. Question number five, Jerry asks or says, I appreciate Ben's recent tweets on

Trey Lance's injuries and the questionable development passed of the 49ers. But setting aside, pending 2023 performance, can we write in Sharpie now that Justin Fields should have been the second quarterback, not necessarily the second player, the second quarterback drafted in 2021? I get most of the reasons for his fall and the Wilson Lance rise, but is this class, another example of teams getting too cute with QBs and short-term success slash good workouts. All right. There's many layers to this question. So I went and I looked at your tweet, and this is what I was referencing earlier. I very much disagreed with one statement from your tweet where you said, it was poorly worded. It was poorly worded. I worded it. Well, then it's not

even fun. Okay. Yeah. I was not against characters and I was tweeting during Dolphin scam and it was my official take on Tray Lance. If you, if like, I think, here's, here's how I would frame it. Whatever opinion you had of the Tray Lance, of the Niners decision to trade up for a quarterback and then their subsequent decision to draft Tray Lance at three over like a Mac Jones and a Justin Fields, I struggle to like see how you can be much different off of that original take because so much of Lance's career has just been like, well, he's hurt. Like he didn't play in your one. They didn't play him. and then in year two he broke his leg

and that's the whole story on him, right? Like I think... Yeah, but what about right now? Like, I don't think that's the whole story on him. Like, right now, he is healthy, right? And he can't beat out Sam Darnold for the backup job. He can't beat out Brock Purdy for the starting job with a coach in Kyle Shanahan,

who is like the guy we gave all this credit for he can build an offense and make it worth. So I think it's more than injuries. Did you see John Lynch's comments today? What did he say? John Lynch gave a quote, radio station, I apologize,

I can't recall what it is. I'll go find it. Where he said, you know, like, Trey did a lot of great stuff for us that we saw him really grow this year,

especially in an offense that wasn't catered to what he does well and really didn't kind of highlight his strengths. Oh, John Lynch! But that's the thing, right? Is 2020, Tray Lance comes out in that Bears game,

right? And then that's a subsequent Seahawks game. And they're running, like, I've clips on my timeline. They're running split back, gone, triple option, this, that, and the other thing, baby is RG3 film. It's the college stuff.

It's the read. It's everything. It's the coolest. Trey Lance, exactly how you would build it. They're doing that, and we two against the Seahawks. He gets hurt, and they put Jimmy in there, and they go back to the Jimmy offense. And then Brock gets in there, and they're in an iteration of the Jimmy offense. This year, you know, there was no, like last year's training camp was,

we're building this offense around Trey. This year's training camp was, we're building this offense. around Purdy, around his skill set, and we're going to see if Trey Lance could fit into that offense, yes or no. And so I hear you on, he couldn't beat out Sam Darnold. Like, absolutely, like, Trey's level of play right now is not where you want it to be for a third year player. And the Niners know they need a more functional backup because they're the 49ers. Their quarterback's not going to start all season. That's just the law of the land. But I do think there's mitigating circumstances there as to why Lance is not a fit at QB2 for the Niners right now.

Yeah, I think two things are true here. first of all, like, I don't really have a problem with what the 49ers did in the first place. We were just talking about Ballard and, oh, he's too afraid to take a swing. Like, sometimes you get to a point and you're like, let's take a swing on a quarterback. And I totally agree. And it's not always going to work out. I actually thought, like, I wasn't like, Trey Lance is amazing, but I thought Trey Lans was a fine prospect. I wasn't like, what are they doing taking Trey Lans?

You remember at the time, it was, there was all the Mac Jones smoke. And then it was like, oh, good, they took Trey Lans. I couldn't agree more. There is so much. There is so much editing of the past where people are like, I can't believe they took a guy that had this few experience. Like, yo, we all loved that guy. Like, I don't know.

Like, obviously, they had some detractors. Like, that's fine. But everybody was thrilled about it. And I think, I agree. Like, it was, again, in the moment in which it happened, it was right for the Niners at the time, right? If your coach and his offensive system can get high floor offense out of mediocre or quarterbacks.

Why would you spend a first round pick on a quarterback at all? Like, just go draft your Kirk Cousins and go draft for Jimmy Gropoulos in the second round and the fourth round and never spend a first round pick on a quarterback. Like, if that's the way that you want to live. The Niners said, we don't want to live this way. We want to go get a quarterback that has premier physical tools that can not give us a high floor offense,

but can give us a high ceiling offense. We want to push through the NFC championship barrier, get to the Super Bowl and win it, right? And in doing so, selected a guy with Cardinal Traits, right? like Kyle Shannon had the quote after the bills lit the Niners up where he was like, the dude can just do stuff that nobody else can do. And in order to get that guy, you have to spend a first round pick. So they rolled dice. They took a gamble based off the idea

that it was the only way for them to vault into the next level of playing football. Lo and behold, it didn't work and what happened? The Niners went to the NFC championship game because Kyle can get that out of a seventh round pick of quarterback. So I think they were very justified in their perception on the decision. It really didn't work out for them. And that's where Kyle Shanahan, the player developer, has to come under fire a little bit. Like, Kyle Shanahan, the personnel manager tends to be like, straight up for a guy, he's cool, he's good. And like, they did that a little bit with Trey, and that deserves its attention. I think a lot of attention belongs on Kyle Shanahan, the player developer, who Kyle tends to

not have the patience for the youths on offense that maybe he needs to. Well, maybe it's also possible that they took a swing in Trey Lance isn't very good and that he doesn't have an NFL career and he's just not good enough. I mean, like, Kyle Shanahan has watched him every day at practice and you going into this season and it's going off a eight game sample with Brock Purdy. So I think there are different things in play there. So I think it was a fine decision at the time to take a swing. I think you can't say it's anything but a disaster. And when you give up all that draft capital and the guy's not even going to be on your team at this point. Now, they kind of got saved if Brock Purdy can play. That's the big thing.

If Brock Purdy can be the quarterback they want on a rookie contract, then it's not going to hurt them as much, but it's still going to kind of hurt them because you don't have those picks to kind of add to the roster around that guy. So that's sort of how I look at. Now, in terms of is Justin Fields should have been definitely the second quarterback? I didn't, like, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what you're, if you remember what your rankings were at the time. I wasn't like, oh my gosh, what are you doing taking Trey Lance over Justin Fields? I thought that was fine. I had just feels ranked very highly. I thought Justin Fields should have been the second overall pick. I think like Firstly, the Jets,

Zach Wilson pick to me is still like, I have no idea how you got there. That was the one that, at the time for me, spun my head way more in the Trail Lans pick at three did. And I think, yeah, like, at this point, like knowing what we know now,

Justin Fields should have been probably the second picket quarterback behind Trevor Lawrence. It doesn't mean I was right. I thought Fields was going to be really good. And I think Fields is just like kind of the best of the rest after Lawrence. So he's, I think he still should have been the second guy. And the details of the question, you know, not falling for the eye candy, not overthinking the process, just kind of keeping it simple stupid.

like this guy was really productive at Ohio State. He's got great measurable. Let's put him out there and play. That's got some credence to it. I definitely think that like, as we always say, we're the draft process is just too long. You just end up making mistakes because you just spent so long thinking about all this.

You talk yourself into corners and you make moves and you get impatient. But I don't think that it was teams getting too wise or too cute, too smart. And over the top when it came to these pecks, I think there was Justin Fields' doubt that was misplaced in terms of like, what he's going to be like as a worker and as a processor that knocked him down the board. And while he's had processing speed problems in the NFL, he's got a slower process in the pocket you'd like. They still have a great offense out of him because they can get great offense out of him intermittently, right? Eradically because of the physical tools.

And that was the thing that, you know, you take Justin Fields too because he's built like Cam and can throw the ball 65 yards. You figure out the rest of it when you get home. Yeah, I mean, I'm not willing to go as far as Jerry. I'm like Justin Field is a very high variance player. I don't know how this is going to go. He could be a superstar or it could never happen for him. I mean, he's so many negative plays. But man, when he's doing the fun stuff, he's like one of the most exciting players in the NFL.

So again, a key player to what. And by the way, not to I don't want to be like the Mac Jones defender, but like I was going to ask. If you start a franchise tomorrow, you're taking Mac, you're taking Fields. I'm taking Fields because Fields has the upside. and I believe in swinging for the fences at quarterback because that's how you really hit the lottery. If you get one of those guys, everything else is so much easier

and it's sustained success. But if you ask me, like, what's the percentage that, you know, Mac Jones has more top 18 starter seasons than Justin Fields. Like, that, to me, is kind of like a toss-up. Like, I think Mac Jones is going to be okay and, like, a competent starter.

But I would swing for the fences to answer your question. Yeah, so second half of the question then. If you have to win a football game tomorrow, one game. You take a Mac, you're taking Justin Fields. What is my, who is my coach? If you have to win a football game tomorrow, one game. I would take Fields. I would take, I think Fields would be the guy who, like on the Tuesday of game planning week,

the opposing, I do the armpit test, as you know, the opposing defensive coordinator is like, shoot, all right, my pits are sweating a little bit. I got to think about how to slow down Justin Fields when he gets into scramble mode and then throws one seven, like, uh, so yes,

uh, we are going to hear about this anti-max slander brother. I promise you that. Was that he? I thought that was, I thought that was very realistic and generous. Max segment. Maybe not.

All right. Uh, let's take another break here. I don't know if this mail bag is ever going to end. I'll just be honest. Uh, I got other stuff to do. But at some point today,

I might not sleep, but, um, at this pace, we might just go on for like three more days. We'll take a break and we'll be right back. All right, we're back on extra point taking. I have five more questions. I don't know if we're going to get through five more questions. That this speed run. Here we go. Let's see. All right. Paul says, ranking NFL players in terms of value is super hard because unlike say in the NBA, value varies

so much by position. In a ranking of players just according to contribution to winning, not abstract awesomeness, I feel like that's for you. Who is the first non-QB listed and what is his rank. Well, one of you should ask that, Paul. I'm actually working on an exercise that almost does this exact thing. And right now, I would say, I would say Michael Parsons. And I would say number seven is where now it's not, it's not the exact same exercise to be clear. There are other quarterbacks who contribute more to winning. This is more like who has the most value. So I actually think it would probably be down more probably in the teens or between 10 and 15 if I'm answering his question. And I think Parsons is the guy. I think you could make a case for Justin Jefferson,

for sure. And I think you could even make a case for Miles Garrett. Those are the three guys. I would say, what do you think, Ben? I also would say Parsons. I also, yeah, I said, ooh at sevens. He'd be in like the teens for me, right? Like, it's a weird sentence to say, but like, Gino Smith is remarkably more impactful to winning games than Michael Parsons is. Like, so is like Derek Carr. Like that's just weird. Like I don't even agree with that as I say it, but it's just kind of true. The one player that immediately came to mind for me in terms of guys that are on the short list, you didn't say, is still Aaron Donald. Because we default, I think, to edges and wide receivers because of how important positions they are, they contribute to the passing game premium position.

But it is worth remarking how much better Donald is than the average. replacement defensive tackle, right? Like how unique his skill set is really does have a high impact on winning games. Because while the, yes, in the aggregate, the defensive tackle does not impact winning as much as edge pressure does, Donald is the exception that proves the rule. And because he's so much more valuable above replacement, I still think there's a really, really good argument that it's Donald, not Parsons, who gets put in that in that spot. But I think, yeah, like Parsons, Donald and Garrett were the immediate first thing that came to mind.

Jefferson obviously incredible, but there's like six other receivers names you could say here. And that's the thing is like... There's so many good wide receivers right now. It's incredible. Yeah. You have three wide receivers on the field instead of two edge rushers and two defensive tackles, right? So there's just like a ton more dudes.

And then just the caliber of receiver play, like the ceiling of it is just crowded with guys versus I think there's a little bit more thinness at edge and a defensive tackle respectively. Those are the dudes that came to mind. Also, abstract awesomeness is, yeah, I know that was for me. I was going to like argue that I didn't need that reminder. but yeah, I don't even try it. I did. No, Donald, yeah, that's true with Donald. I feel like we've sort of forgotten about Donald a little bit just because he missed six games last season.

But if this is just for this season, then yes, absolutely. He could win like defensive player of the year and have 13 sacks and we're going, oh, okay, he just was a little injured last year. That's all. He's only 32 years old. All right. Seven. I think this will be a quick one.

Eric asks, why is Ben too cowardly to bet on Kenny Pickett or MVP? I actually have a follow up here. But if you want to answer that, go ahead. Because he's not going to win it because he's not going to produce enough and the Steelers aren't going to win enough games. I'm not sure about that second part. I agree on the first part. I'm not positive on the second part.

So, Ben, are we, now we last episode decided on the Packers as our team this year, the extra point-taking team this year. Did you see they named Sean Clifford their backup quarterback today? Matt LaFleur confirmed. Oh, yes, no. Ever since we've named the Packers, our team, they've done a lot of things I haven't liked. So was that like, I was just asking, was that like an ink when we name them our team? Was that final?

Were their lawyers present? Because when he did ask this, I'm like, you know, I threw the I threw the Steelers out there to Ben. Ben said no on the Steelers, but I just, you know, wanted to see how you're feeling about it now. I'm still feeling fine. My, I was on a face time with my family the other day because it was my parents wedding anniversary of yesterday. And my sister and my father, the Steelers fans of the family, both, they threatened. to send in an email for this mailbag because they want, they're very upset about my Steelers defense ranking

not a top 10 defense in one of our previous episodes. They were 11th, by the way, and I said it was very difficult to have them out of the top 10. I don't know if you have this experience how many football fans you have in your family. I hop on like a family face time within five minutes. It's like, can you believe last week Ben said this

about the, oh, my, I said this. I'm just sitting there taking it. Just your family. There's something you can do. Yeah, but anyway, so. I thought the sec, the follow-up was going to be from my Steelers fan family. But no, I think the Steelers are going to be fine. I don't think rooting for the Steelers is going to be as fun,

both in a good direction and a bad direction, as rooting for the Packers will be. Listen, all I'll say is next week. We are going through the NFC in one episode, naming our division winners, wild card teams, playoff picture, and then we're going through the AFC in the other episode and doing the same exercise. I would just say Papa Solek and Sister Solac, tune in to the, you might have a new favorite podcast host. Picking the Steelers to win the division there. I didn't say that.

I didn't say that. I just, you know, I think part of the qualifications for an MVP, I think he might hit that. And the other part, he might not hit that. I kind of like the Steelers. All right. Eight. Kang Daddy. Now, I wasn't sure.

All right, so he says, good day blokes, Aussie ex Pat here. Now, do you think, like, is this a legit Aussie or is this someone with an Aussie? I'll read the whole thing, and then you can answer. I don't know if this is someone with an Aussie persona, like online persona from, like, Wyoming, or if this is an actual Aussie. So let's see. When did you, when did you receive the email? Uh, great question. I'll, uh, I'll, uh, look that up.

We got to do, we got to do some time zone checks. I can't remember, I don't know if it was a tweet or an email. So we'll try to figure that out. All right. he or she says good day bloke Ossey ex-patty You're not going to do the voice?

No I don't think I have Ossie accent in me Do you have one? I don't have one. Good day, blobs. You feel, okay, there you go. I'm a Falcons fan and believe Ritter deserves a real chance this season

if he isn't the QB to lead the Falcons forward in this run-first offense. He did spell offense, O-F-F-E-N-C-E. So either really good at the bit or an actual lossy. Would you try to trade for a Tray Lance

or other young quarterback before the deadline, love from down under? Under. Under. There you go. Yes. If it doesn't work out with Ritter,

what is the Falcons plan? I believe it's question. So I do not acknowledge universes in which it doesn't work out with Ritter, but if we're just doing that for fun, a little hypothetical. No.

I think, right, they have Taylor Heineke's backup. Heineke has been a very functional spot starter, right? Held it down to Washington for a little bit, played in a playoff game. Like, you know, he's got some moxie to him.

He's got some skill set to him. I think... Functional moxie. I love this. Yeah. It's a you, I think it's really hard to find a quarterback on the trade market,

except for like unique circumstances. That's better for you in a short term solve a problem situation than Heineke is. Like, again, like, even if they bring Lance in, you're not going to throw Lance out there and have him try to run this offense. Like the offense is not really built for quarterback option runs. Like some boot stuff,

but it's not really a perfect fit. And then, he's got to learn it. Heineke already knows it. He's got experience. He's been good, whatever. Like, I think if there's a unique situation where, like, hey, the Titans are terrible. Ryan Daniel's on a contract year right now. They want to get some Will Levis looks, some Malik Willis looks.

You go get Ryan to run this offense because Ritter can't do it. Like, that makes sense. But in general, I think that's a really hard thing to achieve. So if Ritter's really shaky for them, I think they'll put in Heineke and do their best that they can with him there. And then if they need to make a move after the season, because both those guys can't shake it, we'll have to do it after the season. I mean, they're really stuck without a plan B, in my opinion, if Ritter is not good this year. Tanna Hill was the name I wrote down.

I agree with you there. If they needed to add someone, he's somebody who could potentially make sense if the Titans are not playing well and competitive and they want to move on from him. Heinekees, their backup, as you mentioned. But like, look into the off season, like they're not going to be bad enough where they're going to be able to draft a quarterback high. Who are the guys who could become available? Kyler Murray, Russell Wilson, are those guys going to be able to draft a quarterback high? Are those guys going to be Falcons quarterbacks in 2024? Kind of feels unlikely.

Would they take a big swing like we just mentioned with the 49ers? I guess that's possible. But yeah, I don't see a great Plan B option for the Falcons if it doesn't work out. You know why there's no plan B option for it doesn't work out? Because they don't need one, baby. Rise up. The NFC preview. You will hear that on extra point taken on the rigor NFL feed next week.

All right, two more. David says, good job by us, by the way, speeding up here in the second half. David says, I also like to pick my team as we picked our Packers before the season starts. But because I'm a Bills fan, I always pick an NFC team. I've come down to three teams and I would like you guys to help me pick. The teams are the Carolina Panthers, the Detroit Lions, and the Seattle Seahawks. I felt pretty strongly here so I can go first. You can't pick the Lions, David, because the Lions fan base.

has been through so much pain over the years that if they're good, it's going to be such a unique experience to those who have experienced the pain over the years that you can't really just jump in and feel the same as everyone else. So I don't think you can pick the Detroit Lions. It's just, you know, it's not going to fit.

You're not going to be able to get on their level. The Seahawks, I think you missed your window. I think if last year at this time, if you said, I'm looking for a team, I'm jumping on the Seahawks. I would have said, all right, you're allowed to do that. The Legion of Boom, that's over. Russell Wilson, it's over.

You want to get in at the ground floor of Gino Smith and see what happens. You're allowed to do that. Now can you kind of do there a little more of a trendier team? I don't think you can do that. David, I think you've got to go with the Carolina Panthers.

Listen, nice city. I like a Charlotte. Always like visiting a Charlotte. Good airport. Bryce Young. I mean, who's more likable than a Bryce Young? Love a Bryce Young. Even if he can't play, he's a likable guy.

By the way, he is going to be able to play. We'll get to that. next week, Frank Reich, come on, who's more personable than Frank Reich? I'll tell this story. I mean, I came back, you know, from Seattle to cover the Eagles, and I'm back on the Eagles and I'm like, hey, you know, I'm just going to go say hi to each of the coordinators, introduce myself. Two coordinators at the time, Jim Schwartz and Frank Reich. Little different, little different. Could not have any more different personalities. You know, shook Jim Schwartz's hand. I don't believe he even, like he said hello, he didn't do anything

rude, but he did not stop walking. It was just okay. That's what it's going to be. Frank Reich, I mean, he would have talked to me for 90 minutes there if he didn't have anything else to do, just, you know, where you're from, or you're coming from here, that kind of thing. So Frank Reich, likable guy. At Jiro Evereaux, I feel like is the official defensive coordinator of extra point taken. I mean, we've been gassing this guy up. That's our boy. Like, for a year now, we both love an Evereaux and we don't agree on anything. So you like it. We like an Everro. And then the players, I mean, Brian Burns, Derek Brown, J. C. Horn. Like, the expectations are going to be low, but also, I don't think anyone's going to run away with

the division. So listen, maybe they go, maybe they win seven games, but like mid-December, you're going to still, like, you feel you still have a shot at it. And then who knows, next year comes around. And now they make the leap and you've already been on board one season. So I would say the Carolina Panthers out of those three, agree or disagree. So I endorse everything that you said about the Panthers there. The gatekeeping on the Seahawks and the Lions is just ridiculous.

No. See, I am, that's honestly, you have like stuff that is in your wheelhouse that I'm like, Ben, I'm letting Ben Cook here. He's got this, these fan behavior type questions, who can you root for? I feel like I was just bored. Like, I have strict rules. I'm not going to be nice about it. I have rules on what you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do. David, David, come here. Come to the happy, go lucky, friendly, nice young side of the pot, all right? Come to the warm embrace of just root for the teams that are fun to root for. Oh, you needed to get in a, you need it to get in a, year early on the Seahawks. You need it. This is classic like, Sheel against the spread doing all of his off season work. No, we're like, like all like,

oh, nobody, nobody like, the Seahawks, you should have seen it earlier. You should have done the work in July to realize that this team. No, I didn't see it earlier,

but you can't jump on now. Come on. You, I cannot stress, I cannot stress you how much you can jump on now. It lets, shield, if somebody decided to start watching football and they'd be coming a fan tomorrow,

like I'm going to start to get into the game of football, the NFL. Would you go, Okay, but you're not allowed to enjoy Patrick Mahomes plays because we've been doing that already for four years, five years. This is a straw man argument. That's not what I'm arguing. His question is he wants a team.

He is a football fan. He is a Bill's fan. He wants an NFC team to root for it. I mean, the Lions and Seahawks. He says he always does it. He says he does it every year. That's right. But if he picks the Lions or Seahawks,

like there's a world in which one of those teams is playing the Bills in the Super Bowl. Then what are you going to do? You don't want to be that guy. I was like, well, gee, I like both teams in the Super Bowl. No one will. respects you? Then you want people to respect you. He's a Bills fan.

He will root for the bills. That is obvious. That's elite bragging rights. That's, hey, I'm a Bills fan. Oh, in this season, I pick an NFC team every year. I pick the Lions and look at me. I'm 100% of the Super Bowl. I'm the only one who got it all right.

Pick, Dave, pick whoever you like and enjoy it and love it. I personally would take the Lions because I think the Lions are really fun team to root for. They run the football really well. The coaching staff is awesome. They go for a ton of fourth downs. The Seahawks have a lot going. for them as well. Gino's such a great reclamation story. Love Pete. All of those teams are great. Live your dreams, brother. Don't let the man keep you down, Shio Copadia gatekeeping the Lions and the

Seahawks. I mean, Lions fans, if they win a playoff game, Lions fans will be tears will be coming down their cheeks in the stance. And what's David going to do? And Dave will be happy for that. Pull out an Amman Ross Saint-Brow. Come on. No, it has to be a team with a low ceiling. Yeah, you actually should follow our rule. It should be a team that has plus odds to make the playoffs. And I don't believe the Lions were the Seahawks have plus sides. No, it shouldn't be. Dave's not an NFL podcaster. He doesn't need to do bits. He can just root for a good team.

No, David, you know I'm right. I look forward to hearing from you and go Panthers. What's their thing? Keep pounding, baby. Keep pounding. You clearly don't make enough fun of Stephen Ruiz. No, I do. His face popped in my head, but I'm like, I can't remember what it is.

The amount of times I tell Stephen to keep pounding on a weekly basis. If there was one player on a projected bad, awful team this year that could potentially push a contender either over the edge or into serious championship contention, what player, and which team would you push over the top? I love this question, by the way, Jack's a nice one to end on here. Solect, do you got something or you want me to give some of my thoughts? No, so I brought a Buda Baker earlier. I really like the idea of Buda Baker. Like I said, I mentioned the Packers and I mentioned the Chiefs. I think that Baker coming off of a really bad Cardinals team is a good option there. No, no, wait, hold on. I don't think this is like,

I don't think you're supposed to be that realistic here. Like, you pick a great player on a bad team that's not going anywhere, and you just pick him up and you place him on a fringe contender and say, this player puts you over the top. So this is more of a fantasy land. At least that's how I'm reading it. If I'm wrong, Jackson, I apologize, but that's how I'm reading this question. Aaron Donald is a Seahawk. Chris Jones is a Seahawk. Either one works. I'm going to say the one that's going to hurt your feelings, Ben. Aaron Donald is a Dallas cowboy. I mean, they'd be sick.

Aaron Donald and Michael Parsons? They'd be bananas. I would still, you could still run the football on them to, you know, to recover the nerd argument for many years ago, whatever. Oh, God, here we go. And then the other one that's like, I think it's still kind of realistic, but it's also kind of fits in this as well. Let's get, let's make Mike Evans a Detroit lion.

baby. I am I am all the way in on bucks, bucks fire sale for the trade deadline. They have so many just like solid players who are a little bit past their prime. They already have a Super Bowl ring. Like you can, you know, uh, you can kind of recoup some picks, right? Get ready for the Caleb Williams and the reload stretch. Get a little bit cheaper, get a little bit younger. Um, Evans is a player that like, every like there's some due to who need like, oh, we need a fit in a certain offense, have a certain skill set. You can put Evans on any,

receive a room in the league with any quarterback because he's just a guy you throw the football at. Like there's no scheme. Just just chuck it near him. Like that's the whole side line. You can just picture it in your head. Yeah. Yeah. And so I love Mike Evans to the Lions is something I've been I've been pushing since like July at this point. I'm committed to this bit. Who else needs like a bump? The bills need a bump. The bills need a star. Who's a really good corner on a really bad team? Well, I don't have the answer to that. But while you think about that here are the ones. that I am. What if we get Devante Adams back with Aaron Rogers on the Jats? Does that do enough to give them a little bump there? What about Cooper Cup? Has anyone even, has anyone in the non-fantasy

realm even had a Cooper Cup conversation this summer? The guy two years ago was an absolute monster. I'm just wondering, like, you look at their, you know, I don't even know if it's feasible that they trade those guys because they restructured their contracts, but like, are we just going to let Cooper Cup at 30 years old and Aaron Donald at 32 years old? wallow away on a Rams team that's winning six games. Like, I want to see those players on good teams. How about this one? Well, no, I said Jaguars added Devante Adams.

Give me Devante, Calvin, Ridley, and Christian Kirk. That one, I was like, that would be enough to bump them up. Jaguars need an outside pass rusher. I'm just ignoring the Jaguars defense. Who cares? Oh, yeah? They can be terrible. They're just scoring 45 every week.

Yeah. One guy's not going to make a different. The difference on the G. Only good players on bad teams are just all buccaneers. I'm just like, Carlton Davis. No, I've got a good one.

I've got a good one. Max Crosby. Ooh. You want a Max Crosby on like the Bills or something? On the Jax? Okay. I can picture that actually. Yeah.

Max Rosby. Oh, that makes a lot of them. Okay. Crosby. Who else got really, who's just bad? Rams are bad. They're bad.

Raiders. Who else is doing the Raiders? Raiders. I mean, the Bucks are so interesting because you look at the Bucks roster, you're like, they have a lot of good players. and this team is going to stink this year. So they're in that sweet spot that you mentioned.

Like, are they just going to trade everybody and say, all right, let's go get Caleb Williams and we'll restart. So that certainly is a good one. I mean, their corners are good, the box. They got a lot of good players on defense. Get a Laramie Tunsell on the bills, solve that right tackle problem maybe a little bit.

It's Spencer Brown. We're done with the growth project. We're done with the development project. We're just going to put good offensive alignment out here on out. I can dig it. there you go. All right, fun question. Good job, Jackson. And if I totally misinterpreted the question, then, hey, that's on me. All right. That will do it for this episode of Extra Point Taking. Thanks to Ben. Thanks for all the questions. That was fun. Thanks to Cliff Augustine for producing additional production

supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ram Gopal. Everybody have a great weekend. I think when you wake up Monday morning, maybe not the Australians, but others, when you wake up Monday morning, if you're In America, I think you'll have another extra point taken in your feed. We will start making our calls for the playoffs and everything else for the 2020. Have a great weekend and we will talk to you next week on extra point. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Bandoul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem called 1-800 gambler or visit banduel.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa,

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