The Ringer NFL Show - Matthew Stafford Trade Reaction and Super Bowl LV Impressions

Episode Date: January 31, 2021

Kevin Clark and Nora Princiotti are joined by Danny Kelly and Danny Heifetz to break down the Goff-Stafford trade from all angles. Are the Rams a contender now? How does this affect other NFL teams? Will Goff work for the Lions? How historic is this trade? Later, Kevin, DK, and Danny give some early Super Bowl thoughts (40:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It is the Ring Run NFL show, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark. Great show today. We start by reacting to the big trade, Matthew Stafford, to the Rams, Jared Gough, to the Lions. Danny Kelly, Danny Hyfitz, and Nora Preciati join me. And then we talk about the Super Bowl and give our first impressions of the matchup between the Chiefs and the Bucks, what to look for as we plan our flag for the week ahead

where we're going to have a bunch of great pods on this feed. It is the Ring Run NFL show, part of the Ringar Podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark. The Robin Hood app couldn't stop this risky trade. Danny Kelly, Danny Heifitz, Nor Princiiati. are here to break down. Matthew Stafford to the Rams, Jared Goff to the Lions, two first round picks going to Detroit, Jared Goff's contract going to Detroit. A third rounder is also going to Detroit. This is one of the biggest trades in years. There's a lot to discuss. What's going on

guys? Working on my gamma short squeezes. That Robin Hood joke. Short squeeze? Well, I was just saying, I was thinking about that or the fact that if these hedge fund managers wanted to get out of these bad positions they could just attach a first round pick because no one thought that you could get out of Jared Goff's contract and look at where we are now. All right, we're going to start big picture. Shorting GameStop is signing Jared Goff. Absolutely. And again, just like the Jared Goff deal, everything made sense at the time, but sometimes you change with the information. All right, there's a lot to get to. And I think this is one of those trades that says a lot about both teams. It says a lot about the league in general. It says maybe something about to Sean Watson and that market

and just the quarterback market in general, which we'll get to a little bit later in the show. But I want to start with you, Nora. When you heard about this trade, you thought what? I thought that the Rams just continually go for it, right? Like, this is so on brand for them. And they've been doing this dance with golf for most of this season, where it seems pretty clear that if you gave Sean McVeigh-True serum and effectively being in a do-or-dye moment with this trade is the equivalent

of doing that, it seems like he felt that Goff was indeed holding them back and limiting their stealing. And we know that I think we can say pretty safely that the Rams value first round picks less than basically any other team in the league. I believe they would. Less than anything in the world. They could not. They would, I think that they would throw first round picks in the trash can if they weren't able to get rid of them. Like they just, they look at a first round pick and they just laugh. They laugh at it. And so I think they will be going from 2016 when Goff was their pick to 2024 without making a first round pick unless they trade back up. That's the Trump administration and the Biden administration. Yep. Yep. That's it. They're

going to go seven straight years with that one. It is absolutely wild their ability to to swing for the fences and find ways to go all in, even if you think they're already all in. I'm like, that's a funny thing about the Rams in general. I'm going to get to this. But I, when I think about the fact that three years ago, we were saying, wow, they're all in, it's, it's boom or bust. It's make or break. And then they're just like, we'll just keep doing that. They are perpetually all in. Yes, they are, it is actually argues against fact they've ever been all in. It's just they're all in the time. Danny Hyfitts, talk radio question. Who won the trade or did both teams win it? Everyone won the trade. I mean, Matt Stafford won the trade. Matt Stafford doesn't play

for Detroit anymore. You know, the Lions won the trade because they had 12 offers or whatever and took this one, so obviously it was the best one. The Rams won the trade because I don't care about the money and other stuff, the picks, whatever, I get it. They have a better quarterback. It's the most important position in sports.

The quarterback's better. They won the trade. The only person who lost here you could argue is Jared Gough. I don't care. He's getting $100 billion. He's not a loser here. This is just a win for everyone around. Roll Don Draper. That's what the money's for situation.

Precisely. Danny Kelly, scheme-wise. Okay, let's just focus. I don't want to focus on Dan Campbell, Anthony Lynn, and Jared Gough here. I think we can put that aside here for a second. We know where that franchise is going the next couple of years. Okay. Matthew Stafford and McVeigh's offense is the big thing here,

because the only way the Rams can get to the Super Bowl and the real Super Bowl contention, and this is why they made the trade, is a vast improvement at quarterback. We know Stafford is at least capable of that. McVe identified Stafford as the guy he wanted if you listen to Peter Schrager and some of these other reporters. So I guess the big picture question now is, how does he work in that scheme?

And is it going to be effective enough to get them with that roster with the Stars and Scrubs strategy? You guys are on the Fantasy Pod. You understand it. Is it going to be effective enough for them to get into real Super Bowl contention? And what keys are there in that offense?

So to me, the big thing is the vertical game, which completely left the Rams offense, especially down the stretch this last season. I mean, if you look at one of Jared Goff's scatter charts, you know, the next gen staff, do the scatter charts where all the passes are.

There was one game towards the end of the season. I can't remember off the top of my head, which one it was. But it was literally nothing was like past five yards downfield. It was all they were scheming. McVeigh was scheming up everything just to get the ball out of his hands. They did not trust him to do anything whatsoever down the field. And so to me that's the big thing. And in the heyday, when Goff and McVeigh were working well together in 2017,

2018, the what made that defense so, or what that made that offense so dangerous is they You had to defend every, like, inch of the field. They could go horizontal really, really well, but they could also push the ball deep really well. It just made things very, very difficult. You had that balance where you were able to run the wide zone game, then throw off play action down the field. If you look at some of the stats,

and I pulled up a few stats from PFF, deep passing 20 plus yards last season, Stafford had 13 touchdown to six picks. Goff had four touchdowns to six interceptions. So obviously, Gough, his vertical passing had just fallen off a cliff. Matt Stafford, 2019 and 2020, he averaged 10.7 yards per average depth of target,

which is second among quarterback. So he is, even on these bad teams with the Lions, like a vertical, aggressive downfield thrower. Jared Goff, average double target in the same time span was 7.5 yards of just 29th out of 32. So what you're getting, what the Rams are getting in Stafford, is someone who will push the ball downfield. I think that's going to really open up not only their deep passing game,

their play action, deep passing game, but also open up their run game. Because I think at his heart, in his heart, like McVeigh wants to run the ball. And if you get like, if all you can do is these screens and like five yard passes, that really hinders your ability because defense has just come down. They don't respect, you know, deep pass anymore. So I think Stafford has the ability to unlock that part of the offense. And I think that's why Goff and McVeigh fell out so fast.

So quickly, it's just he couldn't do the vertical element of the offense, even the intermediate part of the offense. Actually, I saw this from sharp football stats. Stafford ranked first in EPA on intermediate throws. 11 to that is 11 to 19 air yards last year. Gough was 22nd. So that's a big difference, both short or both intermediate and deep. And you could hear it from McVeigh, too, over the course of the season because he's usually pretty good at keeping all that stuff under wraps. There are a few moments where some of his frustration.

seemed to creep to the surface. And I think the two things were in. So Goff has had 38 turnovers and 31 games. That seems to really be rubbing McVey the wrong way. And then the other thing was the inability to call and to design longer developing plays. They'd lost that explosive component of their offense. And I think having a quarterback like Stafford,

as Danny just did such a good job explaining, replacing Goff with someone who is better down the field, hopefully opens all of that up. Now that's obviously the gamble that they're making is that not only will that happen, it'll happen to an extent that they could potentially make up for some variance, some regression on their defense and extend this potential Super Bowl window because they think probably they're looking at this year's team and saying,

okay, if we have Jared Goff playing quarterback here and we can't force opponents to defend, you know, every blade of grass, then this is kind of our ceiling. And I think there's a lot of logic in that. But part of the value judgment that they're making when they trade away, the first round picks that they still have to trade away, is that those are going to be, you know, picks in the 20s. And I would guess that they're right in that.

The only thing is it's really risky because if they're not, then all of a sudden the value that they're giving up, is a lot more significant. Like I think one of the reasons that they've been so, you know, seemed so willing to part with those first round picks is because I bet they look at them and they think, okay, a low first or a high second, we're a pretty stable franchise.

We've got a pretty good coaching infrastructure. We can develop those guys and get fairly similar value out of them. That changes when you're talking about like, top half of the first round selection. So if they are right about how possible it is for them to keep the window open, then probably they get what they want out of this. And they end up feeling like, you know what? This is just how we do things.

And that was what it took, not just to get the player, but to get the contract. And they still, I think it's 20-ish million and dead money that they're going to have to deal with. So it's not like they get out of Goss contract, 100% scorn. got free. But so much of how this ends up being viewed a couple of years down the line has to do with whether or not they are judging their window appropriately, I think. Well, it's interesting to me because, first of all, as you said, the dead cap charge is around 22. And that with Brandon Cooks are two of the biggest charges in NFL history for dead cap. So they're obviously, again, not only are they laughing in the face of first round picks or

laughing in the face of the salary cap. And Les Need and I, we've talked about this. a handful of times where basically like they make football decisions first and it's our guy position second. And Lesneda said that has told me, you know, there were times where he remembers oh, we got to get rid of this guy because of the money. And now it's we got to get rid of this guy because of some quote unquote football strategic decision. And then the money can be worked out. Right. The cap can be an illusion even in a year where that's not supposed to be true. Like it is. It's just always going to be true. And it's interesting, Nora, you said that they want to extend the Super Bowl window. I actually think that they didn't have a Super Bowl window until

today or last night, right? Like I actually think that they, if you looked at this Rams team this year, did you see a Super Bowl team? Because I certainly didn't. And now I think that's what I'm saying. No, I know what you mean. I know. They look at this year's team and think, you know what, we, we milked pretty much as, as much as was there out of this. Yeah. They've opened a window. They've opened a window. And obviously, if you look at golf, who essentially was, was not much better than Wolford at the end of this thing. Or if you listen to some reporters, maybe even a little bit worse. I mean, Jason Lockhart basically said this was a salary dump because Wolverton had outplayed golf. I just think that this is something they had to do.

I know that taking a big swing like this seems like it's aggressive, but it's not. I mean, it's like the next step. It's the only path forward for them to win a Super Bowl with their current roster construction. They're not going to get a ton of draft capital. They're not going to get a ton of cap space. So this was the only thing they can do. I talked to Kevin Demoff about this at the Super Bowl two years ago. And he basically said, listen, there's this fascination with either tanking or accumulating all this draft

capital, accumulating all this cap space or whatever. And what there isn't, and it's one thing they want to do is they want to raise their hand and say, hey, this is happening faster than we thought, we're just going to deal with this window. And I think them, I know this is, they take life a quarter mile at a time, okay? Like, that's what the Rams do. That's your organizational philosophy. And I don't think they're going to back off it. And I think that the more they've done this, the more they've traded for Jalen Ramsey, the more they've, obviously they've paid Aaron Donald a lot of money. They gave got that contract, which we can talk about in a second. but they are they have to be the only way for them to keep going is to shoot their way

life and the fast line. They've got this roster. Life in the fast line. They've got this roster. This is the only way they're going to be able to do it. Nora, I want to ask you, do you think that the rest of this off season now changes with the quarterback market or anything like that because of what we saw last night? Is there anybody now, would you say now maybe quarterbacks are going to go for a little

pricer than you thought? Do you think that there's, you know, I think there was a, there was a report a couple days ago that maybe 18 quarterbacks are going to change, change cities this year. This kicking off the quarterback market says what to you? Well, it says that that whole process is now underway, right? Like, I think there was some question as to whether the first domino was going to be Stafford or potentially if somebody really wanted to take a huge initial swing at Deshaun Watson,

who now seems like his situation is going to be a little bit more entrenched and take a longer time, but just because he's the highest quality, potentially available starter out there, you kind of wonder, okay, which one of these guys is going to change hands first? I think now we know that Stafford, because of the combination of his talent level and also just clarity on the fact that he was available, that was obviously the first domino and now everything goes from there. And I do think that, okay, take a team like Indianapolis. that might have been in the running for Stafford. They may, because their options have now gone down by one,

maybe this gives them a little bit more clarity if they want to say go after Carson Wentz and at least, you know, take a flyer there. Whatever. This podcast just got very dark. The Indianapolis Colts just went from maybe we'll get Matthew Stafford to maybe we'll get Carson Wentz in about five seconds. And it's not good.

Right. Think of the Colts fans. But if you have a clear-eyed assessment of your situation and know that, okay, they have a list somewhere. And there's a big gap between those guys. But if Frank Reich feels like our next best option, if we didn't get Stafford is I want to see if I can make something work with Carson once again, then you move on. And that's how this stuff starts to happen in quick succession and quick succession and quick succession. I do want to point out just because we just had this conversation about the range of, living life in the past lane, the lions in some ways are kind of doing the opposite, right? Because the thing is, and I hope this, I hope people sort of recalibrate how they feel about

the golf contract, which has been viewed as such an albatross for so long. And it was for LA, obviously, which is why they had to price into the trade package taking on that money. However, essentially what the lions are on the hook for with him, it's a four-year-old. deal worth $27 million a year, the first two years are guaranteed. But since LA is covering the dead money, 27 is a lot. Jared Goff would not get that on the open market right now. Teddy Bridgewater got 21. Like it's not, quarterbacks are just expensive. So I don't think that this by any means stops them from looking for looking to draft a quarterback high in the first round this year. I think they have pick number seven or in a slightly later round and they say,

okay, let's see if we can either just use golf as a bridge or try to have some sort of reclamation project going on and see if they can up his potential a little bit. Obviously, Brad Holmes was heavily involved in drafting him when he was the Rams director of college scouting in L.A. when they chose Gough, so he probably thinks pretty highly of him. But in terms of that build being fairly slow, I think this is an indication for Detroit that they could, they could do this and still take multiple swings at that position. This does not mean that they have to be like, Jared Gough is our future. So I think in the, we're all in on golf.

Every franchise is going to take in the future, every future, every future, every franchise like 15 minutes where they're all in on Jared golf. He'll just get passed around. Yeah, so the Rams will inherit two years, $43 million remaining on Stafford's contract, which is extremely manageable, especially for a player like Matthew Stafford.

Before we get to the bigger implications here, Danny Hyppitz, I want to stick on the Rams here. Where do they rank right now for a Super Bowl contender? So, Dan Olovsky comes out, and by the way, Olovsky, in my piece a couple years ago and hit a profile on Stafford, one of his hypotheticals was, he was like, you know, I think Stafford's gotten the life sucked out of him a little bit. I think that

sort of his arm. He still has the capability to make those throws where no one else can make it. But what would happen if he had a Sean McVey or a Sean Payton? And I threw that out there on Twitter last night, that that little quote that he gave me because I think that Stafford is kind of on the short list of guys who, who was, it was always a what if guy. You know, what if he had a Sean McBay and now he gets it? So Rolowski comes out today and says that the Rams are his Super Bowl favorites. I wouldn't go that far. But if you're talking about pecking order for 2021, especially in the NFC, Danny Hype, It's where do you go? I think they're really high.

Super Bowl favorites is maybe that's what happens when you go to first take too much. I really love Dan Arlowski. But I think, no, he's great. That's not what I'm saying. But I like your point about Stafford being. No, I like your point about Stafford being in the right offense because here's the deal. Jared Goff didn't make Sean McVeigh's life easier. That's what the money's for.

That's what the big contracts for. Stafford will make Sean McVeigh's life easier. Sean McVeigh will make Matt Stafford's life easier. That's we can go on X's and O's and schemes and all this stuff. At the end of the day, That's the job. So I think as D.K. was mentioning with the schemes, it'll be fun to see Stafford throwing down field, hitting all these things, knowing what to do because Goff, you know, he went first overall.

He's got some tools. But the reality is he wasn't mobile. He's not a creative player. When Sean Gave's scheme failed, Jared Gough wasn't there to be like, hey, we could do this. Oh, he just ad-libbed. He's not doing what Mahomes does. He's not doing what DeShon Watson does. He's not doing what Stafford has done for 10 years, which is, oh, everything went to hell.

Okay, I made a play anyway. Jared Gough does not and has never done that. Stafford will do that. And when the Rams offense has that, I think it'll be really good. And I think Les Need, the Rams GM, as you were talking about Kevin, deserves a lot of credit here.

He's kind of a swashbuckling guy. I mean, he just, I think clearly just doesn't value first rounders like everything else. We said Goff's contract was getting shorted. Les Sneed's actually kind of shorting first round picks, right? He's just looking at a different chart than everyone else. So I don't think it affects the quarterback market. I don't think it changes any of these other guys.

I think the Rams just look at the market completely differently than every other team and what they're willing give up. But that's also one of the reasons I think they're a Super Bowl contender, because any hole they have on their roster this season, they'll make the trade. They don't give, they don't, I don't know if you allow cursing on the show, but they don't give a, whatever. We, we, we don't give a hoot. I believe we do. You have a child, so you know all those little. And when it's warranted. Oh, it wasn't warranted. D.K has a little son, so he knows how to not curse now. They do. Just, just, just, just so that we're operating within the, the bounds of

reality here. They need a deep threat receiver. It's not just that it is primarily the quarterback in terms of why they've lost a lot of their explosive playability. But like, I really hate that I'm about to tie this to the post-Brandon Cooks era in Los Angeles, but they could use a receiver that can stretch the field too. Yeah, you can get one of those though. That's easier than getting Stafford. Look, swashbuckling less need is probably going to go out and do it. And if it takes six first round picks, then, you know, that's just the price of doing business if you're swashbuckling less sneak. It just, I just don't want to paint, Matthew Saffert is a very good quarterback, but I don't

want to paint him as like, save your fixer of every single problem. Yeah, with Kevin, I'm curious. That's a good point. But the thing I'm wondering here, and Kevin, I'm curious what you think. What do you make of the Rams giving up seven consecutive first round picks? Like, do you think that, like, here's the thing, they're either, is it like every, there's a thousand ways to skin a cat? Where is someone right and some, like, are the Rams, what are the odds that they're right?

And the other 31 teams are other than maybe the Patriots are all wrong. And the first rounders are overrated. So there's a couple things here. Number one is that most of these, especially in the past three years, most of them have been low first round picks. It's been. So the last three years have been 23, 31 and 20. Okay. The Patriots have made a cottage industry of trading back, as you said, and maximizing second,

third round picks because they understand what that's what the value is. I think that these, I've talked to the front office there a lot about inefficiencies in the market in Los Angeles, not in, not in New England. The New England front office is less chatty. You don't text Bill Belichette. Everyone here knows. Um, no, at different events and training camps and all that stuff, I've talked to those guys. And we, you know, they, they look for inefficiencies in the market just like everybody else. And I remember talking to, I think it was Kevin Demoff about, Robert Woods. And, and I said, you know, what did you, what did you look for in Woods? Because I did not think Robert Woods was anything special when, when he came to LA. And said, look, I mean, like,

the big thing right now is look at supporting cast and, and, and, and really dig in and find out that Robert Woods played really well when he had good service, but he was just playing with a bunch of bad quarterbacks. And that there are hidden gems because I, I come from it from, I came from at that point in that conversation is saying like, you know, it's really hard to find an inefficiency or a hidden gem in the NFL where there's just a lot of smart people doing a lot of smart things and the idea that Eric DeCosta or Brett Veach or Brandon Bean aren't on something is, you know, it takes a lot of work in order to beat those guys. And I think that there are five, six, seven front offices where they're really good at figuring out where to, to, uh, hit an inefficiency market.

and one of those guys, excuse, one of those ways is to trade first round picks for elite talent because you're not going to get at pick 31, pick 20, pick 23, you're not going to get an elite player. And you do, in a lot of cases, have to pay up for those guys. Jalen Ramsey's really expensive. Matthew Stafford, relative to a first round pick, it's really expensive, but you're going to get better players. So I understand why you do it. It's an inefficiency on a team that looks for inefficiencies. And that's, that's long and a short of it. I mean, like, this is a forward thinking organization. I remember talking to Lesothian a couple years ago and they were given the rookies tests about how to be how to teach millennials, right? Because they couldn't get through to

them. And now every team does that. So they don't, they gave them like aptitude test to figure out how they should teach them. It was wild. Anyway, they're just a poor thing organization. And whether it's, you know, figuring out that Robert Woods was going to be good because he was playing with bad quarterbacks or figuring out that the Jalen Ramsey's worth two first round picks, they're going to think about this stuff. They're not a perfect organization. They gave Todd Gurley way too much money. They gave obviously, in hindsight, Jared Gough, way too much money. This is not a perfect organization. If they did, they win the Super Bowl every year.

But what I will say is they make more good decisions than bad. And you can't say that about most NFL organizations. Just to piggyback on that. Some of this stuff is really complicated and some of it's really simple, right? Like low first round picks being willing to part with them, you can exploit a little inefficiency by doing that for the simple reason that a first round pick sounds more valuable than a second round pick. Is pick 32 really that much more valuable than pick 33?

No, it's not. But it sounds cooler because it's in the first round. And that sounds like the most reductive, basic, dumb thing that everybody should have gotten over. Guess what? They haven't. They haven't. If you say just anybody, that's how the human brain works. You'd say that there are two first round picks and it just sounds like a buttload of money or a value.

A whole. That was the instant reaction last night. Everybody was like, that is a hall of picks for Matt's stuff. First of all, they do attach first round pick to get rid of golf's contract, whatever. Anyway, I do think that, but I also think that there's a bet that is being made that has happened in the past. It's happening with the Texans right now that at some point, things go south and all of a sudden you're not picking 30th or 32nd or 28th. You're picking third. I mean, damn, look at the Boston Celtics in a similar situation there where the trades don't work out.

And all of a sudden in 2023, you're picking second overall. first overall happens probably half a time in these situations that the pick ends up being way better than than we thought. I do want to think your brand, Nora, on the report, Tom Curran had it a couple of minutes ago that Matt Stafford City would play for any team except the Patriots. I guess the suggestion there is he did not want to do another Matt Patricia era. Matt Patricia's rejoined the staff. What do you think about that?

And is it justified and does it say anything broader about the Patriots other than he just didn't want to be with that patricia anymore so two things matt safford played at georgia plays indoors apparently part of it also not thrilled about the weather and new england whatever i think that's probably fair i also think the quarterbacks who don't like snow are big giant babies and should get over it um that's just my personal opinion i don't like sure i think you're a big giant baby and should get over it we're going to get that part of snow in boston on monday and i for one I'm incredibly excited because it'll turn my neighborhood into a winter wonderland. But again, neither here nor there.

It's 71 degrees here in beautiful St. Augustine, Florida. You're curious. No one asked. In terms of the Matt Patricia 2.0 era being off to just a rollicking great start. Yeah, man, that's tough cookies. I can't really say that I blame Matthew Stafford. It didn't seem like that was a fun few years. So I sort of doubt that his presence is going to, in the long term, be a hugely significant factor for free agents writ large.

But you also have to remember that there are two free agent receivers in Detroit, Marvin Jones, and Kenny Goliday, who have been routinely tied to the Patriots for trades or whatever for years at different points. and it might just be that for this one off season, there are a few guys who are going to look at the Patriots and go, oh, God, that guy was not fun to play for. I kind of don't want to do this again. I do think, though, that while that's fun to joke about and think about, the reason that players don't want to come to New England right now is because the roster is not very good.

It's not, like, it's not Matt Patricia. It's like a little bit Matt Patricia, but it's not entirely Matt Patricia. Also, nobody wants to replace Tom Brady. Well, technically they're replacing Cam Newton. Thanks. Let's be real here. He's not replacing Cam Newton. He's still Stafford replacing Brayne.

Yeah, but you can't. How long does that go for? Indefinitely. He's not replacing. He's literally not replacing Tom Brady. I will say that I think that this is just a tough break for the Patriots and so much. Like, I don't think Matt Patricia is going to keep a bunch of people away. I think he's just going to keep Matt Schaffer away.

And the fact he was available if the, if the Patriots were going to part with the I think he also might keep Marvin Jones away. Okay. Well, that's fine. Listen, I wouldn't want Matt to show my staff just kind of a general, but I think that they know what he brings. You know, just don't just let him do do whatever he's good at and things will be fine. He brought there research guy. Patrice.

Evan Rothstein. There. Well, there we go. Already already making waves. All right, Norway's got to go on the other side of this break. The Danny's return. We're going to talk a little bit more about what this trade means. And then we're going to talk Super Bowl.

right dandy kelly let's briefly get into the lions part of this because they're stripping this thing down to parts that's pretty obvious dan campbell is and brad holmes are going to take a longer view on this when you look at that roster and you look at golf and you look at everything uh can you just kind of sketch out a path forward for this franchise i mean yeah i think it it you can look at golf as probably like a bridge quarterback if he works out and if he he turns back into the guy that he was a few years ago then that's like a huge bonus but to me they're you know they're they're getting these first round picks, it helps them build the foundation for what they want to do. This is a sort of a clean break slash clean slate. They can just kind of start, you know, building the, the roster, how they want to build it without having to worry about, like, you know, making Stafford happy, making, giving them a winner right away. Goff has already talked about how he's, he's just happy to be somewhere where they, where he's wanted and accepted or whatever.

Like, it's just kind of depressing to see that tweet happen today, by the way. But yeah, I mean, I think they're definitely at a turning point. A lot of their veteran guys, a lot of their older veteran guys are free agents. And so I think this is a good time, you know, for them not only to just get, get younger, continue to rebuild the foundation, but to just break away from, I guess, like, you know, the Stafford era. Yeah, no, it's, it's, the Stafford era was an interesting one because I think that Matthew Stafford, Stafford, is, you know, again, we'll go back to the what if thing. I think there's so many different ways where we're thinking about Matthew Stafford being, having played in a Super Bowl, certainly winning playoff games, being an NFL games or whatever.

And I think that could have happened with going to Dallas, what, six years ago and losing on a strange referee, pass interference judgment call. That could have, there could have been a pathway there. Orlovsky says they had the Packers number that year. They probably could have made the Super Bowl, whatever. That's a different conversation. But I guess Danny Kelly, the question I have right now is, if you're to rank quarterbacks, Matthew Stafford is where for you right now in 2021?

In the entire NFL? Yes. I think that's a good question. Probably somewhere around like 12, 13. Like he's not necessarily an elite quarterback, at least in this point of his career. I think he could in this new scheme in the RAM scheme. It wouldn't surprise me if he had like a really good season in 2021. one. But I think there's enough evidence in his career that he's maybe not like the guy that

everyone kind of expected him to be coming out of college, but he's still a very good quarterback, put it that way. There's shades of gray there. And so I would say, yeah, somewhere probably like top 12ish. And I think he could certainly still rise. He's only 32 years old, I believe. So it's not like he's necessarily getting near retirement or anything like that. I think he's still got a few good solid years of his prime leftover, or at least not, maybe not his prime. But, I mean, we saw what Aaron Rogers was able to do this year. And Tom Brady's going into his 43rd year. So I think he's still got plenty of good football in him.

And in the scheme, who knows, maybe like he turns into a top five guy. Danny Hyfitts, future of quarterback contracts. You know, I saw Bill Barnwell make this point. I thought it was great. And you essentially, and by the way, Barnwell was on this from the very beginning. He basically said that made the case that the Rams should just cycle through quarterbacks, never give the big money. But now you look at huge extensions going forward for quarterbacks like Jared Gump.

I'm not talking about Patrick Mahomes. I'm not talking about Deshaun Watson. I'm talking about the middle tier and what that looks like. Do you think that there's going to be a return to, you know, in the middle, I think Andy Dalton had that contract that was, you know, kind of mid-market for a quarterback and then a couple years later, anyone who was playing like Andy Dalton was getting significantly more than that. Do you think that this Goff and Wentz kind of nightmare at these teams, both these teams are going through, is going to say anything about how quarterback's paid in the future, or is that just the cost of doing business now?

No, it has to change something, right? I mean, we talked about we just saw the first and the second pick in the draft played pretty well early, signed massive deals, and then just not be who the teams thought they were. Now, the Eagles had to fire a coach and bring in a coach basically to fix Carson Wentz, which is an unbelievable thing for the second pick. The Rams just got rid of golf after they extended him. And both those teams traded up to get those guys. I mean, so as Barnwell pointed out,

does it make logical sense for like, oh, yeah, we have this quarterback on this cheap rookie contract and then we'll give it up and then we'll get another one and we'll find someone cheaper. That makes sense. But the reality is that these are relationships, right? It's kind of like dating someone. It's like when you're with someone, you know, the one, you know.

It's like the chiefs in Patrick Mahomes, there's no hesitation. but the middle tier of quarterbacks, it's so hard because you want to talk yourself into this person, like, yeah, they're the right person. But in reality, it's really hard to be like, oh, yeah, there's other fish in the sea. It's hard for these teams to be like, oh, yeah, we'll just find another quarterback.

It's scary to take the leap and break up and be like, oh, no, well, we just be alone forever. You know, it's a difficult, it's easier said than done, but I think that the Rams had the courage. And I think that's the word. Like, I think the Rams deserve some credit here for being like, yeah, screw it.

We made two huge mistakes. Like, well, I don't know if they would say, drafting golf was a mistake, but they obviously just said that signing him to the extension was a huge mistake. And they kind of got matching tattoos here. It's like, Les Need, Sean McVeigh and Jared Goff all sign these extensions together, like in the same summer. It's like you go get matching tattoos and it's like, oh, like it takes a lot of courage. Like, yeah, you know what? That tattoo was a stupid idea. I wish I didn't have it. What I will say about the extension is that obviously it was a mistake and that's why you have to attach first round pick to get rid

of it. What I will say is first of all, no one is ever successfully in the in this in the cap area, just moved on from a quarterback and and without a plan in place to replace them and then thrived after that. Like it's never happened. And there are so many I'll tell you, there are a handful of teams where scouts, you know, this is all third hand have told me that, oh, you know, we're going to, we're going to draft this quarterback and then we're not going to sign him to an extension. We're going to draft another quarterback, right? People have told me that not, I'm not talking not decision makers, but I'm saying there are people who've been associated with teams where the rumor is always they're going to try that strategy. And then in year three, the player is really

good. And guess what they do? They give them a bow to load of money. They are four or they extend the fifth year option or whatever it is. Teams talk about it and don't do it because it is such a bold thing to do. And if you screw up and get fired. Yeah, that's a big thing. Going into the draft or for agency to find a quarterback is a lottery. And I think that teams are always glass. half full on their quarterbacks, right, unless it's just a complete disaster and they have to move on or cut the guy or whatever, right? You know, Trubisky is closer to that bucket than the automatic extension bucket, right? And what I'll say about the golf contract is I was talking to the Rams in January of the Super Bowl year and Jared Gough had just become eligible for an extension, I think,

on New Year's Eve that year. And, you know, he's starting a Super Bowl. And it seems like the right thing to do. And it seems like it would be incredibly aggressive to let, to not talk extension with Jared Goff. And what I'm saying is that I think there's probably some GMs and some sports who would do that. What I'm saying is in football, nobody wants to be first. Nobody wants to be first. Exactly. Because you're on your job is in the line as soon as you do it. And so it's easier said than done. I think I mean, I cannot, as I said, I cannot applaud Barnwell more loudly than I am now for basically calling this and saying this is what they should do. I'm just saying that every team I've ever heard who's thought about doing this

has backed off as soon as it becomes realistic. I think you're right. The best analog for this to me is the Cardinals drafting Kyler Murray. That's another example. You know, the draft Josh Rosen 10th. And then they take Kyler Murray the next year. And that's another example. That's never been done.

No one had to just punt it on a quarterback one year later. And if you're going to do it, well, you better be right because you're probably not going to get into the job in that position if you screw it. up. But then they punt on Kyler Murray, or sorry, they punt on Josh Rosen. And now other teams can point to the precedent of, well, the Cardinals did it and it worked. So now more teams have the option. It's the same

thing here. I think that to come back to your original question of will this change things. Yes, because there's a precedent now where there wasn't one. Because Stafford's better than Gough. So unless he loses his talent like his space jam, they'll be a better team. And then other teams will point to it. Danny Kelly, is there a trade right now

now that we know where Stafford is going? and the Rams are set of a quarterback, the lions are set of a quarterback, all that stuff. Is there a quarterback and team matchup marriage that you want to see? Ooh, that's a good question. I still really am curious what is going to happen with Sean Watson. You know, this is one of those situations where you have to look at teams that are able to make the trade for Watson nowadays. Now, especially with the context of how much the Stafford trade was, obviously there is the Goffert contract. situation too, but it feels to me like, you know, three first rounders is the minimum that you

would add, that you'd need to get to get rid of Watson. And so, you know, maybe that means the Jets are like, you have to wonder if the Jets are now, the team kind of like the big stack. They have the most leverage. They have the ability to get other people out of the bidding just because they have more to use. And so, I don't know, I don't necessarily want to see Watson on the Jets, but they seem well positioned to do that if they do want to go that route. I was going to ask you guys this, why does, why, why, why does it seem like all these huge blockbuster trades only happen in the NFC West now? Like, is this being the 49ers have to be the team that go and get Watson? It's like an, I mean, it seems to set the bar. By the way,

John McLean, uh, who covers the Texans is a great job reported that the Rams Lions trade will have nothing to do with the Watson trade. If the, if the Texans do it. And McLean, basically said the Texans have probably played this out as long as they can. McLean reports that the Texans will want two ones, two twos, and two young defensive starters at the least. Wow. So McLean said start with the Jets. So we'll see where that goes. But I also think that there's just still, there's a long way to go there. And I don't think Deshaun Watson trade is imminent. All right. So Danny Hyfitz, any other big picture thoughts before we get to the Super Bowl on this trade and what it means? Well, I think to go back to the Sean thing for a second, I think it has to be the Jets because the amount of teams with the list of things you just said who would be willing to give it up, I think is small. And I think that it's the Dolphins and the Jets.

And quite frankly, I can't imagine the Texans sending Deshawn to get their fucking pick back. Sorry to curse, but that one counts. Like, the Watts, trading away Deshawn to get the picks you got back for the left tackle you traded to protect Deshawn is just the optics are too bad. You can't win that deal no matter what. I think it'll make them look even dumber. So the Jets are the only one left. I really think that that's, sending them Miami would be astounding. But the big picture thoughts is I really just think that this trade got me excited for 2021.

You know, it's cool to see starting quarterbacks and new teams. I'm excited to see Stafford and McVeigh. I'm excited to see Jared Goff either revenge tour or kind of suck in Detroit. I think that it just kind of got me excited already before the season's even over. I don't, I won't tell you which one I'm favoring, but it's definitely not a revenge tour. Yeah, I'm in agreement with. you, I'm excited about this because this is, they, they in theory solve each other's problems, which is McVeigh was held back by a mediocre quarterback and Stafford was held back by mediocre

franchise. And we don't have that anymore. And there's no more excuses. And we're about to see if they are the people that we think they are. I don't want to step on Warren Sharpe's toes, but I foresee a lot of underbedding on shared golf totals in 2021. Yes. I, I am in agreement with that. Although, you know, listen, I think that, uh, I I think that Dan Campbell will be interesting to watching. That's the word in his first year. Jared Goff, week one, blood all over his teeth, biting the kneecaps of opposing defenders. We didn't know he had it, isn't it?

All right, let's talk about the Super Bowl here for a second and get off bloody kneecaps, hopefully off of bloody kneecaps. You never know what's happening to the Super Bowl. This is supposed to be the Super Bowl preview pod that became the Stafford trade pod instead. Danny Kelly, if you're identifying things to look for this week, big picture, you start where? Yeah. The first thing that I want to know is, are the Chiefs going to fall behind again early on in this game? And how is that going to dictate the flavor of game that we're looking at here? Because on one hand, I am confident in the Chiefs, I'm confident in my homes, I'm confident in that offense.

And, you know, Andy Reid having two weeks to prepare, come out swinging. But at the same time, we've seen it so many times in a row now where they kind of get off to these like a little bit slow starts. so and then have to kind of you know not call the way out because it's they have eliminated these leads very easily in almost every case but i'm just curious to see how this game starts out i think the first quarter more you know more than ever is going to be an interesting one in the super bowl because i think it could um you know dictate how the rest of this game goes so how do how do the chiefs play early on is the first thing i'm looking at yes uh danny high fits you think it's going to happen again chiefs fall behind early no i think they're focused i think they're focused i think that

if your game plan is to hope that you fall behind. Oh, they're focused. Yeah, no. They weren't paying attention. Oh, we have a game again. Is that how they approached last 18 weeks? But, no, I think the key to this game, the more I look into it, I think just how do they cover Travis Kelsey?

You know, the first times these teams played, Tyree Kill at 203 yards in the first quarter. I know that's not going to happen, but I kind of love just thinking he was on pace for 812 yards or whatever in the game. So I think that obviously the bucks aren't going to try the whole covering Tyree Kill one-on-one thing again. they're just, that's not going to happen. So I just, but that means that the key is they're going to have to be able to match up with Travis Kelsey. And Travis Kelsey, we call him a tight end.

He's the league's biggest slot receiver. So it's, you know, like every classic tight end. It's like, oh, well, he's too big for a defensive back to guard, but he's too fast for a linebacker to cover. The difference is Kelsey's actually like that. And if you can't cover him for 70 snaps, who do you match up with Travis Kelsey? That's how he almost led the league in receiving this year. I think the bucks are interesting because they have two of the fastest linebackers in the league. Devin White, Levanti David,

and they have pretty physical defensive backs throughout that secondary. And I am almost wondering if they put Carlton Davis, who gave up, said 203 yards in that first quarter on Tyree Kale. I actually think he'd be better against Travis Kelsey in this game.

So I think that whatever the bucks do, whether fast linebackers or physical defensive backs, how they approach Kelsey will be, you know, the chiefs, it's how much of it is you pick your poison. I think that how they pick the poison against Travis Kelsey will unfold all of the chief's options going forward.

I think that that's really the whole game. To that end, D.K., is there someone on the Bucks defense that you think we should be talking about more in this matchup against the Chiefs offense in which basically every blade of grass needs to be defended? Where do you start when we're talking about the Bucks defense? Do we know for sure if Antoine Winfield is going to play or not? I don't think we know. I don't think we've seen anything. That's big, obviously. Yeah, I mean, so that's the first thing that came to my mind is if he can play, he was such a big impact player throughout the season.

he missed the championship game, obviously, with an injury. So if he can play, that's going to be a big, big boost for them. But I go back to what Highfitz mentioned at the linebacker group, man. I just think, you know, if any team feels on paper built to stop a guy like Kelsey, it is this Buccaneers team because they have two of the best or two of the most versatile fastest linebackers in the game. Lavante David has been all pro like every year. And he's one of the most underrated players in the NFL, I feel like he's just

just so good every single year. And yet we don't really talk about him all that much. Devin White, you know, top 10 pick or whatever he was, he's just explosive, flies around, make so many plays in the middle of the field. So they have that second level, you know, those two guys that can just kind of shut down the second level. So I think that's going to be such an interesting chess match to watch, you know, from a, from just like a schematic point of view. I think the chiefs can beat you in so many different ways that it might not.

matter and that's why I'm confident in the Chiefs, that's why I'm picking the Chiefs. But I think that's going to be a big matchup to watch is how that intermediate passing game goes with those guys kind of ranging around. You want a Levante David stat? Yeah. Here are the players who had a thousand tackles, 20 sacks, and 10 interceptions in the first eight seasons. Ray Lewis and Levante David.

Yeah, man. That is the list. He's literally like all these players get most underrated player. Levanti David is actually the most underrated player. He actually is. He actually is because he's been good for like seven years. He was on like a Grantland underrated players list like six years ago. Yeah.

He's awesome. He, to me, David is the personification of football instincts. The dude just knows where the play is going to go every time. It's almost like Kikley like, Kikley-esque in the sense that he's just always on top of it. He doesn't,

he's not like especially big or especially explosive necessarily as an athlete. Like he's a good athlete, but he's not special athlete. He just has instincts like crazy. He always knows where the play is going to be. So I love Levante David. Going back to his early, early days,

I always thought he was going to be much better than people thought. And he's on track to be a future Hall of Famer. Kevin, can I ask you a question? Well, I just want to say briefly that I, I talked about this a couple weeks ago, Jeremy Foward on his podcast, but Levanto David played against my high school in the state championship game in 2007.

And it did not, it did not go that well for old Boone High school in our way. That's interesting. Danny Hyfitz. I was going to ask you, I mean, you're the one who always says, you know, obviously the narrative around Brady

in the playoffs is you've got to beat him in the four-man rush and you have explained over and over there. Well, anyone loses with the four-man rush. Why didn't I think about that? Exactly. It's like the fact that- We're talking about Bryson D. Chambot, the golfer, and Mark Titus is so funny.

He said, he was like, oh, man, until Bryce and DeCampbo started doing it, I never thought to hit the piss out of the golf ball. And it's like, yeah. It's like, every time the Giants beat the Patriots, it would always be like, The Giants showed you the blueprint. Get home with four men.

Oh, really? Because I'm pretty sure everybody's been trying that for all time since football was invented. But congratulations to the Giants for finally breaking through on that one. It's so true. But the irony now is I feel like it's been flipped because now Brady's going against Mahomes. And I feel like that's the real key for the Bucks other than what I said about covering Kelsey is, can they get to Mahomes with a four-man rush? Because the bucks, you know, they blitz a lot with Todd Bowles, but they have this defensive line that's really talented. Jason Pierre-Paul's playing great.

Jack Barrett's playing great. And the Chief's offensive lines really banged up. And the irony now to me is, will Brady cap this seventh Super Bowl because his defense getting a four-man's rush? It would be kind of like a funny bow-tie in the whole thing. Not a bow, just a bow-tie. Yeah, you just said, though, that pass rush versus the offensive line. The banged-up offensive line is really crucial, too.

I can't believe we didn't mention that before. Because, yeah, that's just a huge handicap for the Chiefs is having those two offensive linemen out. how are they going to have to change things? Are they going to have to get the ball out much quicker? Are they going to lean on, like, you know, the running backs in the passing game a little bit more or whatever? That's another really good, you know,

chess match type thing to watch early on. All right. We're going to have a ton of Super Bowl coverage this week on this feed, a lot of good player interviews, just a lot of cool analysis. These guys will be on the Ringar Fantasy Football show twice this week, right? Yes, sir. Ringer Fantasy football.

They're going to be hopping on with me. to do some player interviews as well. It's going to be really fun. Dike and I are interviewing a hot draft prospect on Wednesday. Yeah, are we allowed to say it or is it a secret? I don't like to say anything until people are in the chair talking to us. That's fair. That's fair. It's going to be worth watching.

No competitive advantages. We got some good stuff coming this week, both in podcast, forum, video, and print. So go to the ringer.com. Stick with us here on this audio feed and watch us on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, wherever videos are. He's been the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.