The Ringer NFL Show - Michael Thomas Is the Highest-Paid WR in History, Plus: Training Camp With the Ravens and Panthers | The Ringer NFL Show

Episode Date: August 2, 2019

Saints wide receiver Michael Thomas became the NFL's highest-paid wide receiver, how Ezekiel Elliot’s draft capital is affecting his market value, and the Jets summon Ryan Kalil out of retirement (4:00). Then, training camp with the Ravens, Browns, Panthers, and more (17:25). Hosts: Robert Mays, Kevin Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's show is brought to you by DirecTV. Good news, NFL fans. Direct TV has expanded NFL Sunday ticket this season. If you live in an area where DirectTV service is not available, you can now get NFL Sunday ticket without a satellite. To see if you're eligible, go online to NFL Sundayticket. TV and stream every NFL Sunday ticket game this season to follow your favorite team no matter where you live.

Use promo code Ringer at checkout to save 15%. Exclusive student discounts also available. The Ringer NFL show, I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, how you doing, buddy? I am on the side of a highway in Knoxville, Tennessee. I just drove by the Knoxville Sunsphere. If you're a Simpsonsphere, you know what that means.

If you're not, it's a big Sunsphere in Knoxville. Thanks for clarifying. Yeah. I am on my way to the Hall of Fame game very soon. I am somewhere south of Cleveland. I don't know exactly what town. I am in a hotel room. That's all I have to report.

I know no more specifics than that. I legitimately don't know what city I've in. Yeah, well, that's very common on the camp tour. Let me ask you a question. Are there towns to jump out to you where you say, I'm just going to move here? Because it's a very, the camp tour, you have seven, eight hour drives.

You get tired. You kind of just, you know, your mind wanders. What's the city where you're like, this is it. This is where I'm just going to move. I've always felt that way about Minneapolis. I really like Minneapolis in the summer. It's beautiful.

it's to me the most underrated food and drink city in America. Yeah. I think that they just have a great scene there. And just the overall sights and scenes there in this time of the year are beautiful. And I had never been to La Trobe before. And I went there yesterday and I was just blown away by the scenery. I mean, it is gorgeous there. It's a pictures kind of backdrop.

I have a bit of a skewed vision of a lot of these places. You're from Midwest, Midwest. so you sort of understand this. I've only been to Ohio in the summer months, and I've only been to Michigan in the summer months. So I think these places are some of the nicest places in the world. Yeah, they're gorgeous. It's always 75 and breezy. And I've never seen a winter.

So I'm all in on like Cleveland and Eerie PA. Latrobe. Yeah, La Trobe was gorgeous. So I made this observation on my way from Green Bay to Minnesota. And I have a lot of love for the state of Wisconsin. I think that there are a lot of places. I've enjoyed my time. I think Milwaukee is super underrated.

Yeah. But there is a clear shift when you're driving across Wisconsin when you get into what is more or less Minnesota. And it is essentially when you hit O'Clair on that highway. And it's like, oh, there are trees now. The dairy farms are gone. This is beautiful. And that pretty much means you're in Minnesota or about to be.

So that's definitely a clear shift. So La Trobe is where Arnold Palmer is from. but Arnold Palmer is also from Orlando because he lived there and he created a golf tournament there and so when I first got there some Latrobe rivalry here between your people and so here's what happened

is that I was like I checked into the hotel and there was a huge mural of Arnold Palmer there okay and I was like oh that's nice I'm from Orlando that's where he's from that's where he lives and this is Ronald Palmer was still with us and the woman at the hotel said no

sir he lives here and I said, no, I'm pretty sure he lives in Orlando. And then the woman kind of got mad at me. And then I was like, Arnold Palmer jostling is amazing. I was kind of like, am I going to get in a fight over this? Like, am I going to get in a huge blow up over where Arnold Palmer lives? And, you know, we just left it. I just left it off to the side there.

I don't want to finish that. And I, you know, ended the check-in process. So we're going to do the same thing we did last time. We're going to give a couple tidbits from camps that we've been to. Unfortunately, because we recorded two days ago, we have not been to many camps. So there's not as much to report, especially compared to the last show. But we're still going to do that. I feel like it's a good idea.

We're going to hit some news. We're also going to talk about the names that will define the NFL season this year. Just the guys that we think will have a massive impact, whether it's coaches, players, beyond that. We're going to break down that list. But let's start with a little bit of news. A couple things have happened since we recorded last. Michael Thomas became the richest.

receiver in the history of the NFL. This is one of those deals that it happens and somebody asked what your response is and it's like, sure. I mean, it's or did we expect any different? Like Michael Thomas has been the one of the, if not the most

productive receiver through his first few seasons in the history of the NFL. And when that is the case and your contract comes up, you will likely become the highest paid player in the history of your position. And that is what happened. Yep. I mean, it's, it's hard to separate Michael Thomas's efficiency from Drew Breeze.

But from where I'm standing, you don't want to be the team that finds out. Do you know what I'm saying? You don't want to be the team. So his catch rate last year was 85%, which I believe is the best in history or close to it. At one point, he was trending to be the best in history. I don't know how he finished exactly. So he's worth a lot of money, especially for the next, what, two years that Drew Breeze will probably be around that we know of.

And so I just think if you're going to try to go all in as the saints are perpetually all in, this is the move you had to make. I understand, you know, look, eventually they're going to have to start paying a lot of their guys because they hit on a lot of their draft picks. This is what we talk about all the time. This is the Cowboys problem. This was, you know, in the old CBA, the Detroit Lions problem, except they didn't have the money for it. And so I just think that this is the first in a lot of big contracts saints have to give out, but I think their hands are tied. They just got to do it. It's the tax you pay for having really good players.

Absolutely. And so his base salary next year is $11 million, which I'm sure by next July, that will be converted to about $2 million in base salary. And they will move the rest into a signing bonus and start kicking the can down the road again. The Saints are just going to start signing everybody, the Bobby Bonilla contract, where they're just paying these guys like 2060. We're going to have like Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara. every time they get a million dollars when we're all like 75 years old. I'm honestly shocked that there are no years at the end of the deal that just void in order to move the signing bonus money into that year, which the Saints do and no one else in the NFL does because they just live in like the most YOLO world possible and I really respect it.

You know, I've told, I've said a lot. I've joked around about how the Saints behavior mirrors banks that cause the financial crisis. And I'm now removing that as a joke. It's 100% true. Yeah, I mean, it's not a joke anymore. That's absolutely true. The problem is the saints are trying to operate in the maybe there will just be enough money later that it won't matter. And I kind of respect it.

Like, if you have Drew Breeze and you have a 40 year old quarterback, the idea that after this, who gives this shit anyway is actually kind of a good way to build your team. It's like when you factor in your like blackjack winnings when you're in Vegas. Yes. Do you know what I'm saying? Like when you're there and you're like, oh. I'm going to get this dinner. We saved so much money in 2007. We might as well just burn it all now.

I'm going to get this dinner and it's going to be fine because I'm going to go in a heater later. And then the heater never comes. Anyway, the Saints might win the Super Bowl next year. So they might. They're a very good roster. I understand them doing this. It's not surprising in any way.

Julio Jones will probably get more than this. Let's talk. So you mentioned the Cowboys and I just want to do this very briefly. So Amari Cooper said that he hopes the Michael Thomas negotiations affect his contract, Which, like, I don't know. I'm trying to think of a good comparison. You know, when Stephen A. Smith signs his next deal at ESPN, I hope it affects my contract, too. But this is a different conversation.

You know, like Michael Thomas and Amari Cooper are two different tiers of players. Who did you just compare to Stephen A. Smith? Michael Thomas. Okay. I know. I just wanted to make sure we track there. So you're Amari Cooper in the situation? Yeah.

just I'm saying that we're in the same business, but I don't necessarily think his contract negotiation should impact mine. I think I've kind of suspended from Amari Cooper takes. That's probably fair. I think Amari Cooper is a good player, but I don't think Amari Cooper should be looking at Michael Thomas's contract and be like, yep, that's it. Good slow newsday guest.

So I'm with you on that, although I will say this. Amari Cooper looked like an elite player, the second half of last year, and I cannot figure it out. I cannot figure out if that was just he works well with the cowboys. I mean, the Raiders, he was trending in the wrong direction with the Raiders. And that's why I thought that the trade was a really, really bad idea.

I probably think they still could have gotten him for less if they had just held steady. But I guess the Eagles had offered something like that too. And so I guess a second was the report for the Eagles. But I think that he should not get Michael. Thomas money, but he shouldn't get, you know, John Brown money. No, I agree. I mean, I think he should get a nice contract, but I don't think he should be looking at the top of the wide receiver market and think that's what I deserve to get paid.

No, no, I would say, I would say a little bit under that is where a negotiation starts. Also, by the way, Jerry Jones just loves paying people. Sure, but let's, all right, let's address that very quickly because I want to talk about what Stephen Jones said yesterday. He said that he does not think the Cowboys. should be in the business of being market setters at any position. That's good. And I understand him saying that because if I'm looking at the cowboys right now,

I agree with him. And I feel like some people kind of bristled at that comment as it related to Ezekiel Elliott. If we're talking, if Ezekiel Elliott's people are coming to the cowboys and saying we want to reset the running back market, which is above $14 million a year that Todd Gurley got, under no circumstances should the Cowboys do that.

Am I crazy here? No. I feel like he's completely in the right with that stance because I don't think if you, if the two options are, we must sign Ezekiel Elliott to the Todd Gurley contract or we must let Ezekiel Elliott walk.

You let him walk a hundred times out of a hundred. And is that off base? I agree. No, it's not off base. I think we're getting into a really interesting conversation about Zika L.A., which is, how much the draft capital is affecting, is affecting the decision.

It's immensely impactful. Right. And so I, I am really interested in the psychology of all of this and how the fact they took, used him with the top five pick is shading everything that they're doing right now. I don't, you know, again, Damarco Murray was a third-down pick. The entire conversation

changes. DeMarco-Mori led the league in rushing. He wasn't, I don't think he had as much talent as Ezekieli at all, but they kind of said, no, he didn't. And so he, that they ran him into the ground and said bye. And so I think it's really interesting to me. What I'm fascinated with is, you know, there was always this, this, especially in 2016,

this weird meme where, that went around that was like, well, they should have, they should have drafted Jalen Ramsey, which they should have done, and then taken Jordan Howard in the second round or whatever. Sixth round. Yeah, the fourth round, whatever it was. Or taking any running back in the second round.

my curiosity is how well is that pick age in general if this is the end of Zeke Elliott if this is if he plays one more year with the Cowboys and then that's it but we always knew this was going to be yet excuse me five if you play if he right no no no I said that at the time

but if he only plays five years with the Cowboys how do you view that pick it's a failure and we knew that at the time this is not a revision history thing if you go back and all the conversations we had even in 2015 even in 2016

as he was having that season. I was saying this. By the way, the first pod we ever did was us kind of saying they should have taken Jalen Ramsey. It was a day after the draft. It was in a hotel room in Chicago. And we both said

they should not have taken Zeke Elliott unless they were maximizing for the short term, which at that point was Tony Romo. I just, this entire conversation to me is so skewed because as it relates to Melvin Gordon even, you know, Josina Anderson reported today that his agent has asked for a trade Right now there's an impasse because they've offered him reportedly $10 million a year on his extension.

And we don't know the guarantees and everything else. And that's a huge thing. But if it's 10 million a year, that's coming in below Todd Gurley, Levian, Bell, and David Johnson and above Devante Freeman. That is more than fair. I wouldn't pay Melvin Gordon $10 million a year. So the fact that he's demanding a trade when that's the offer on the table reportedly, I just, I don't know. This is a tough spot for these teams to be in. this discussion before, but as the actual financial numbers start coming out and as Stephen Jones

says stuff, like, we don't want to reset the market and we actually know what the ballpark is with this, I completely understand where these teams sit. Yeah, I think we're just going to keep getting in these running back value arguments for the rest of our lives. I know. That's probably true. I'm sorry that I brought it up again, but Stephen Jones and everyone in the Cowboys organization has said something in the last couple days, and he's a big name, and I think it's something to address. I agree. All right. One more bit of personnel news, the New York Jets have coaxed Ryan Khalil out of retirement. What's going on there?

He's a bigger name than he is a player at this point. He was definitely on the downside. Shades of like Jeff Saturday and Greenback. Yeah. I mean, injuries have taken a massive toll on him. But I also think that position, Brandon Thorne was pointing this out on Twitter, and I completely agree with him. That position is as much about stabilization as it is about physical talent. If you have somebody that can help you with calls,

if you have somebody that can really be a calming influence on the rest of your offensive line, I think that matters. I think this is good for them. This is one of those deals. I mean, he's making $8 million this year. That was the first report for one year. I'm sure it's incentive-laden.

It's a huge overpay for his actual skill set right now, but the Jets have a ton of salary cap space and who the hell cares? I mean, if you think it's going to help your offense and help your second-year quarterback, then I understand doing it. So it matters. You know, this is definitely,

if you look at their roster, if you look at the offense especially, you know, maybe the biggest remaining hole, we'll see what happens for them at right tackle. But it's a spot they probably needed to address. They addressed it with a smart veteran player and I think they're better off for it even if the value isn't necessarily there. Are the Jets going to

be any good? So I wrote about that today for the ringer.com on Thursday. Tied it up for you. I just think that they believe they're going to be good. And when you have that sort of offseason. That's a rarity this time of year. But, I mean, when you spend the most money of any team, it's the expectations that come with that are real.

And whether or not they're deserve it, I think is the biggest question. I think they could be decent because I'm a big darn old believer. I just think he's going to be a really good quarterback. And I like the skill set of the players they have catching the football. And that's a big thing to me. I just think that the pieces fit well together. You know, we talk about complimentary receivers and how they all play off each other. and I think with Crowder in the slot,

Robbie Anderson being a field stretcher, Anuwa being that kind of physical presence on the other side, Herndon being able to just really be a mismatch guy against linebackers, which I think he is, and Bell as arguably the best past country running back in the entire league, that's nice to me. And there are questions all over the roster.

They have holes. I mean, they're not perfect, but I do think that they're much better than they were a year ago. I think that they can go 9 and 7. I think that they could be a dark horse wild card contender, but I think a lot of things would have to go right. yeah I sure wish they had Joe Douglas pick the players I mean that's the problem is that this is such a weird

kind of you know slapped together organization where the player it's there's no coherent plan and that's always a problem to me but yeah I do think that they're better than they were six months ago and are is their ceiling to find because of how much money they spent yes but the players on the roster are better than they were at the end of last season there's no denying that sure um yeah I mean, you've been there.

I have not been there, but I, I agree they've got enough talent where I wouldn't be, I actually wouldn't be surprised with anything kind of in the six to 10 win range. Yeah, that's pretty much where I would put them. I think that they're, they have enough holes to kind of be on the low side of that,

but if Donald is really good, I think that they can be in a double digit wins and push to get a wild card spot. I think that's their ceiling with this team and I think that they've really hampered themselves in terms of resources for the long term. So it's not, there's no clear path of them getting much better than that with this current roster construction or over the next three or four years.

But I think right now they can absolutely hit that spot. All right. Let's get to our training camp tidbits. Again, not many of them. I've only been to two separate teams. I got there near the tail end of Steelers practice because I went straight from Cleveland. I just had to talk to a couple guys after practice ended. So I really only have some takeaways from Cleveland.

Why don't you start though? Let's stay in that division. Why don't you tell me what really jumped out to you at Ravens camp? Well, Earl Thomas, what do we call it? Is it a pick six if we're not really hitting? Sure. It can be a big six. I mean, really, like, 80% of it is just the desire to run to the end zone once you get the interception.

But let's not, let's not, let's not harp on that. Earl Thomas looks really good. That's the bottom line with that story. Is Earl Thomas, if he stays healthy, is probably assigning we're not talking nearly enough about. Do they overpay? did they overpay? Sure they did. Do they give too many years? I don't even know if they did. Considering the safety market right now.

But what I'm saying is for as far as just the other bidders he had. I mean, he was going to go to, he was going to go to Kansas City on a prove it deal. If he hadn't. And that's that's a whole different what if. I mean, good Lord. Yeah. What a weird sliding door moment that is. But, you know, I think that in general, he's a sign and they were not talking enough about. I think that they, you know, they lose Mosley. they lose a couple of those guys. The team got really young. And Thomas helps. There's a couple of veterans in that secondary, whether that's

Brandon Carr, whether that's Tony Jefferson. But I was looking around yesterday at their depth chart. It's a pretty young team. And Earl Thomas is a huge, huge name there. They're all in Lamar Jackson. Lamar looked pretty good. Teres Paler at Yahoo had a really good piece today on just how all in they are. And I think that... He's crushing at this camp. I just want to throw that out there. He's doing really good work. I've always loved Therese's stuff, but I think he's done a really good job. I was talking about Lamar first. I was like, oh, yeah. They both are. They both are. Terese and Lamar.

Terese and Lamar. Doing great work. So I think in general, I think the Ravens are right up there in the AFC North. I don't know. There are so many questions for me, whether it's Baltimore, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland.

With the exception of Cincinnati, I'm up for anything in the AFC North. Yeah. I, you know, Jim Harbock, Jim Harbaugh. John Harbaugh came out today and said that they really want to revolutionize offense. I don't know whether he said that yesterday or today, but I said it a couple of times and an assistant said that to me as well. Like basically like we keep, you know, I had an assistant tell me I'll write it at some point that basically they they want to reverse the running game trend and people,

they want in two years people to be writing that the Ravens changed the way we look at running backs and just the running game in general. I'm excited to watch it. I don't know if it's the right plan. I don't have a ton of faith in that being the right way to do this. It's the right plan if you have Lamar Jackson and that team right now. They build their team this way. Like that what is the, I mean, the whole lesson of Bill Belichick these last 20 years is to build the team, build the best version of the team you have. And as soon as they drafted Lamar Jackson, this was the correct route. Absolutely.

I mean, if you're going to go, if you have a completely different plan that's just in a laboratory, would it be different from my perspective? Yes. But they're done. They've built the best team around Lamar Jackson. They can probably have built at this point in the curve. I totally agree. All right. Let's talk about my trip to the Browns a little bit.

I have a couple things I want to report. First of all, I mentioned this in the ringer slack today. It was just a very funny moment. I was standing there on the sideline, watching 11 on 11. Baker rolled out and like whipped a ball to the pylon that David Joku dropped. And he ran right past us. And it hit a cameraman. So I was looking to see if the cameraman was okay.

and then as Baker ran past me, he snatched my water bottle out of my hand, and then as he was running, just flipped it behind him without looking, and it just landed right in my palm. I was like, well, this guy, I don't know. There's something about this guy. He just, that's his essential demeanor all the time.

And that jumps out when you're there, is that he just really owns those practices. He has a presence. There was some reports yesterday about him kind of getting in his receiver's ears. He's doing that a lot. and I think that they respect it and understand it. I talked to a couple of his teammates yesterday

just kind of about the way that he's kind of controlled everything about the climate there. And it's been noticeable. And I think that it's a good thing for them. Also, just in regard to him, every time I'm there, I don't want to overstate it. And this may seem like recent C bias, but watching him throw football is just different than most people.

You know, there are a couple of guys, you know, Mahomes, Rogers, when you see them do it. And it's like, wow. Like, that's just a different thing. But Baker, it's just this combination of how the ball explodes off his hand and how beautifully he places it. You know, Drew Breeze is unbelievably accurate, but he doesn't have that, like, explosive arm strength that Baker seems to have. And watching it up close and just how pinpoint some of the throws are, it's really impressive. So those are two things that jumped out.

And the other thing, I had a really long conversation with Todd Monkin today. And he just said a lot of fascinating stuff. I'm going to write about it a little bit later, but he said to me that when he was trying to decide whether or not to take the Brown's job, whether or not he was going to call plays was way down his priority list for what gig he wanted, just based on the fact that he's had so many jobs

in different levels and in different capacities, and he's pretty much told me, he's like, you know, when you're the wide receivers coach and you're scoring 35 points a game, it's fun as hell. When you're the head coach calling plays and you're scoring 10,

I don't care to be that guy because it's not enjoyable. So he more or less was like, I want to go work for the Browns because I think it'll be a good time. And I respect that because I feel like that's kind of everyone's feeling

about this team. So I came away from my couple days here and I'm probably going to go back tomorrow because I'm going to be in Canton anyway, just more confident than I was even going in. I loved what I saw from them on pretty much every single level in every single capacity.

I lost my internet connection as soon as you started that story. It went away for a lot of, long time and I got it right back as you finished that story and you never noticed. And I'm on texting with Craig right now, producer Craig, and he wanted to see if I could pull it off. Just get back on before you finished your story and I did. You did. And I, the audio quality is different. Did you hear about my Baker-Mayfield water bottle story? I told me. Yeah, I heard it in Slack earlier. The audio quality is different

because my interconnection is gone so I had to call him by phone. Do you have any response to the water bottle thing or no? No, Baker-Baker Mayfield walks around with a lot of swag. Yes. Yes, he does. Hey, I heard a funny story. My guys from German TV. Yeah, they were in Minnesota this week. Yeah, yeah, those are my dudes. So did you see them playing rock paper scissors with Stefan Diggs?

No, I did not see that. I was interviewing people. I might have been talking to one of the coordinators at that point. They told me a story that I'm, I'm now all in on Stefan Diggs. So their whole thing is at the end of the interview, they put an NFL star, they play rock paper scissors with them. And he told me, me that at the end of the interview, before Stefan Diggs is going to do rock paper scissors, he yells, I use paper. And then it totally psyched out everybody. And Stefan Diggs wins every time.

And he does that he does use paper. That's incredible. He just calls his shot and then they overthink it. And you kind of panic. And then he just wins using paper. I mean, that's some like next level shit. I love that. Well, you can only use it once.

Belichick, Belichick, right? You can only use that on a person. Sure, but you're going to win when you do it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. It's a nuclear option, but it works. So, I want to talk about the Panthers. I was there today. I'm going to write it out.

Sat down with Greg Olson. Had an amazing time with him. Greg Olson is not a secret to television executives, but television executives, if you're listening to this, pay the man his money. He is as smart a player as there is, breaking down the game,

in the NFL. I mean, there's a handful of guys who, when you talk football with them, you just understand, you can see them in a broadcast booth. And there's a lot of guys like this. You know, I mean, I would say that, you know, one of my favorite interviews of past couple camp tours, Mike Daniels, now, you know, having just departed Green Bay, somebody like that who can just talk about the game in a different way. Greg Olson is on that list for me. And we sat down and I asked him, we talked about a bunch of different stuff, non-football, football, whatever. And one of the things that we talked about was just the fact that this entire season depends on health. And I talked to a lot of the beatwriters when I was watching practice.

And they were like, you know, it's kind of quiet, not a lot going on here. I'm thinking, you know, I think the Panthers have a different perspective than most teams because pretty much everything is whether or not they're healthy. Like Cam, Greg Olson, all these guys. You know, they added a bunch of pieces. Gerald McCoy. I mean, their defense has to come together in a certain way. but it could definitely do that. But as long as Cam is healthy

and a lot of, as long as a couple other guys are healthy like that, they're going to have a good season. They're going to win double-digit games. And so I'm intrigued to see, and that's the segue into our next segment, I think Cam Newton is one of the most fascinating people in football in 2019

because I think we've kind of forgotten about the Panthers way too quickly. I haven't. They're my favorite Super Bowl bet. I've said this for the past like month. I'm 100% I'm in with I'm with you

everything you just said I am lockstep with you I think that if he is healthy they're a double digit win team and if that's the case them being 60 to 1 to win the Super Bowl and him being like 60 to 1 to win MVP are nuts Christian McCaffrey is really good

they got some good players dude I love what they've done personnel wise I love their off season Matt Paradise bringing back to Earl Williams them just getting Tray Boston right now and just having him be a piece to drop into the secondary for $3 million.

And you can never have enough safeties in 2019. The amount of big nickel packages and they use that Buffalo position that Thomas, or that Shaq Thompson used to play. Now he's a full-time linebacker because Davis is gone. So you need somebody else there. That is a spot where depth is so important right now. And to just be able to bring him in right now is massive for them. Because now, uh,

Rashad Goldson is that his name? Rashad Gold. Rishon golden. I'm going to confuse him with Sean Goldson. Yeah, that's not. I thought you were talking about Golson.

I was like, what is what the hell? Roshan Golden, but it's G-A-U-L-D-E-N. That was tough. I'm sorry. I got confused with the names, but he was going to be there starting free safety.

Now Boston most likely will be, and that depth is really important. I just think that they crushed everything they did this offseason. I agree. It's one of the kind of funny things to me was Thomas Davis apparently was a huge, trash talker in practice and he brought a lot of energy because of that and I think that those guys are valuable and they haven't had anybody like that and Cam Newton actually kind of jokingly

complained about it today just like no one's talking to me and so one of the things from what I understand is that Tray Boston fills that role quite well from what I know and so that that funny just like those little tiny things that actually matter to a team and I'm sure that when they were signing him or when they cite like at least on Cam's mind when that happened he's like, oh, good. Like, somebody's going to be that for me. Like, those tiny little roles, I feel like are so underrated. It's also one of those things where if you explained that,

like, if that was just on football, Twitter or whatever, people would just get really upset. Like, if Martin came out tomorrow and was like, I signed Trey Boston for this much money for a couple million bucks because he yells at Cam Newton. Like, that's not the whole reason you sign him, but like, if you explained that to the outside world, you'd sound crazy, but it actually within the locker room,

it's like, oh, of course we would do that. Yes. even like yesterday at Browns camp, they did like an athletic trainer race at the end of practice where like they were betting on them like race horses. And Baker's guy lost and he's like he literally slung his helmet across the field. He was so mad.

I just like little stuff like that. That matters, man. Like these things are long. These are long practices. It's hot as hell. Tiny little things to kind of just have a little bit of fun. That shit is so important. Yeah. I mean, it also comes back to just the competitive aspect of it. I mean, that's like the whole Pete Carroll thing.

One of the most fascinating things I've ever heard about with regards to that is Drew Breeze, who will challenge, he wrote this one on to the Wall Street Journal. And I talked to a lot of guys around him. But basically, he challenges guys to these crazy competitions, like whether it's trick shot competitions or kind of even off the field paddleboard races or whatever. And all he does is challenge is backup quarterbacks. And I remember asking a couple of his backups, Ryan Griffin at the time, Doug Flutty. that kind of thing. I was like, why does he do that? And they said, because you cannot push Drew Breeze on the football field. And the way he's going to, the way he's going to get those competitive juices going against you is to find something that you can compete with him against. And that's where he gets his edge is just, okay, I'm not going to, who is he? Oh, I guess it's Teddy right now. Teddy Bridgewater is not as good as Drew Breeze. We love Teddy Bridgewater. But maybe if they're playing a different game or different, even if it's Xbox, whatever it is, ping pong, right? even if you can do that,

even if you have a competitive ping pong game against Drew Breez, who will get pissed off and then feel, feel like he's got a competition, you know? And so guys look for that, and we don't think about that enough.

All right, let's keep going with our list here. The first guy on my list, it may be a little bit weird, but to me it's Al Riveron because I just think this pass interference rule is going to be a huge story.

He's the head of officiating. Aaron Rogers brought it up to me unprompted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just think that it's going to be a really big storyline early in the season. And I think there are going to be a lot of eyeballs on the officiating world in the NFL. And I think that he's the mouthpiece for that. And I think that a lot of people are going to be looking at what happens with it.

I think that it's going to be like the helmet rule. I think there's going to be like five things in the preseason that are just outrageous. And then maybe like week one, it'll something big will happen. And then it'll just, it'll just stop. Like there's probably, these rules panics, they tend to, they tend to accelerate start really quickly and then they just by like October, nobody cares about them. So I think it'll just work itself

out. They'll have some like adjustment period on like September 20th and everything will be fine. I agree. But I do think at the beginning of the season, it will be a story. Oh, someone's going to lose a game over. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. What's your next one? Steve Spagnolo.

I mean, that's something that was on my list. It's something that we've talked about a lot. But you know, it was funny to me the other day I was writing about the chiefs. And I said, you know, they really did. Have you seen the numbers for Patrick Mahomes in losses? I mean, he crushed it in every game last year, basically.

And if that defense gets solved, again, AFC is over. If that defense is, I'm not saying they're going to be top 10, but if that defense was legitimately good with all their additions, the AFC is over. I know we talked about this last week, but it bears repeating. the switch from a 3-4 to the 4-3 is important. I have my doubts about Steve Spagnola, just from his history, recent history.

Obviously, he has an incredible pedigree going back a long time, but I just haven't seen a lot maybe the last few years. So if he can be the defensive coordinator of the chiefs need him to be, the AFC is over. If they can't, that's when the Patriots come in. That's when the Colts come in. That's when one of those AFC North teams comes in. And so that's the fascinating thing for,

me is can the chiefs be a complete team? And the question within that is can Steve Spagnol will be a great defensive coordinator? How good does that defense need to be? Like, let's talk about DVOA finish. Where do they need to finish for them to be clearly the best team in the NFL? Like, by four of the best team in the league, where would they need to finish? Like 12th? That's exactly the number I had in my head.

Look at. Look at that. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that's the level they need to be just above average. because the offense for all the regression talk, everything else, we're talking about regression. We're talking about 50 touchdowns to 38 touchdowns.

48. Yeah, I was going to say 48. Yeah, it's the regression. It's not regressing from good to bad. Let's say that, okay? It's regressing from historic to merely great. I'll say he might not regress. Who cares?

I mean, I'm just saying that maybe it's obviously statistically, that seems to be the model. but who the hell knows Patrick Holmes is really good but statistically the model is touchdown percentage regression they don't necessarily have to get that much worse on offense

we're just talking about like more Damien Williams touchdown runs I don't think they'll score as many points but I think they absolutely could still be the best offense in the league hey he knows you win the Super Bowl the Patriots the New England Patriots

tough scene so similar to this bagnoa thing for you. A guy in my list is Matt Eberflus. And I just think that if you look at the Colts off season, they really, outside of Justin Houston, didn't spend a lot of money on their defense that wasn't on players previously on their roster. They really had a lot of faith in some of these guys, you know, your Pierre de Sears. And beyond, you know, rewarding some of these guys financially, they didn't replace many of them. So I think that, you know, I was having a conversation at Colts camp with somebody

who would know a couple days ago, and we were just talking about Mike Daniels and whether they'd been interested, and the answer was yes, but they look at a guy like DeNico Autry and they're like, Deco Autry can play. Like, we don't need to bolster that position

with somebody expensive because we believe in the players that we have. So they're really banking on guys like Clayton Gathers who they retained, Pierre Desir who they retained, Kenny Moore, who was an excellent player last year, just one of those guys that this is how you go from not being very good to being very good quickly,

is dudes like Kenny Moore, who you got on waivers becoming stars. And they're really banking on that collection of talent. And I think that kind of connected to that, they're banking on what Matt Iberfus did as a coordinator last season. I think he's excellent. I am biased because he was a coach of my Missouri Tigers when I was there, and I thought he was great in that role. And I just feel like the game plan he had against Houston

really shows that they're flexible, their game plan oriented, they're able to kind of switch things up on the fly. I have a lot of faith in them, but they clearly have a lot of faith in him as well, and we're going to see if it's warranted. Yeah, I mean, I think that, again, the Colts, I'm still workshopping my Super Bowl pick,

but I'm still thinking, I'm still thinking the Colts have a real good chance. I mean, there's a real clear, who's your kind of Mount Rushmore of AFC contenders right now? It's the Colts, it's the Patriots, it's the Chiefs, it's the Chargers, and that's probably the list.

Yeah, I would agree with that. where would you put within that realm? The Browns are in a tier just below that, if not in it. How did you know I was going to ask that? I mean, because that's the clear team that I would have left out. There's a lot of ESP here going on here. This is quite a connection we've got going on today. Maybe it's the new phone line that I got that we're just connected into each other's brains.

Yeah, I think the Browns are probably a year away, right? Yeah, that may be true. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it's one of those things where, like, you know, I've done pods of people and, and, and there's a lot of really smart people who are like, they have among the most complete rosters in the NFL. And at some point, that becomes a real, real, real thing. Yeah. So one guy, one more kind of down the list, but probably on the list guy I threw out there, a name I threw out there, is Greg Robinson.

I think Greg Robinson will kind of come to define the season in a certain way because if you're looking at that Browns roster, that's, that's, is the one area where you would have concerns is what's going to happen on that offensive line. Can Austin Corbett come in and start? Can Greg Robinson be a functional left? Austin, by the way, Austin Corbett was my original, when I pitched this idea to you, I said, I mentioned Austin Corbett as one of the most important people, not because he's, you know, Tom Brady here, but because if he's good, that answers a lot of questions. Yeah. And I think that that line is a huge question for them. And kind of in that same vein, if we're kind of sticking on this conversation.

Another guy I had on my list, you kind of raised your eyebrow at the Chargers. Pat Meyer, the Chargers offensive line coach, is going to be a huge factor in what happens in the AFC. Because the report that came out today about Russell Okun, possibly missing the first six weeks of the season, that's a huge deal. Because this offensive line is far away with him in the lineup.

So now you're bringing in who? third round rookie Tray Pipkins to be your left tackle you have Forrest Lamp coming in as a starter for the first time after being hurt

for a majority of his career to this point I absolutely think they need to make a trade at that position if O'Kong is going to be out for that long this is a team

that could win the Super Bowl you have a 37-year-old quarterback this is not to be fucked with like you absolutely need to do everything you can

to solidify that position right now Robert I love you I love doing podcast with you. I've got to pull you out of Chargers, Offensive Line Coach is the most important person in the league and give you Tom Brady. Thank you. That's fine.

Tom Brady is an important player. Tom Brady's important player. I was going to go Carson Wentz there, but now I just, we got to get so famous after that that I'm upgrading. I just think any quarterback who is in his 40s, we've done this for four years now.

At some point, it's going to fall off. What does that look like when it does? Peyton Manning fell off and won the Super Bowl because of the pieces around him and at least something to do with maybe his intellect a little bit and his ability to get the ball where it needed to be. But on the other hand, some of the most of those passes were just ducks. What does Tom Brady's decline look like when it comes? I don't know. Ron Rivera told me that he bought the TB12 book and just got it signed by Tom Brady. That's how much respect there is for Tom Brady and how he's aged in this league.

and so Rogers told me that everyone just looks at him now and how he does this. It's influenced every single person in football. Yep. Rogers had a great, I think it was a brier. Somebody did it last year where they basically said that Rogers has adapted, even though he's not in the Foxborough working with those guys. He's basically adapted the TP12 method. That is the default NFL method for aging.

And it's really interesting to watch. So I'm done. I've never really shorted Tom Brady, but I'm done shorting Tom Brady if I was ever not done. And so I just think that his ability to reinvent an offense, it's him and Belichick and Josh McDaniels too. You know, I think they're probably going to go a little heavier this year. They don't really, we don't know.

I saw a report today in a Keel Harry drop four passes in practice today. There's no Josh Gordon right now, no update from a league spokesperson on his, his potential suspension being lifted or whatever. So where do the Patriots go from here? Where does Tom Brady go from here? Do they use James Devlin as a de facto second tight end? Do they run the ball?

Do they as kind of a zig when everybody's zagging kind of thing? Do they just keep throwing your running backs for 20 games this year instead of, you know, the tail end of the season last year? Is Sonya Michelle the playoff guy? Can he carry that into the season? So Tom Brady at the center of a new innovative Patriots offense is fascinating. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that watching what they do and kind of how they evolve year to year is one of the coolest things about football.

So I don't disagree with that. I'll stick with a pretty big name here. The next guy on my list is John Lynch. I think that the 49ers, you could throw out a bunch of different names as it relates to them. It could be Jimmy Garoppolo. It could be. But I just feel like this is a huge. season for whether or not he retains that job because the moves they made and you know

getting D forward everything else you know hopefully they were enough but this team is in win now mode maybe more than any other team in the NFL just in how much urgency they have so we'll see we'll see if the moves worked and if they didn't I'm not sure you know how the heads roll there or what ends up happening yeah agree I mean there's a lot of pressure for a team that lost starting quarterback last year I think they overpaid a little bit But from what I hear, they went with a model that is probably more common than you think around the league, which is when they want a guy, they pay. And that's sort of where you see some of the free agency decisions.

And what I'll say is we spend so much time talking about the Eagles and the Patriots and like all these ruthless salary cap managers. And there's a lot of that around the league. But most teams are just like, well, we'll worry about the salary cap later. I'm not saying the Niners are doing that. I'm saying that they're a more traditional team. than maybe I thought as far as some of the free agency overpays that I saw. Yeah. All right.

Who's your next one? Oh, last one. Carson Wentz. I was actually going to, I flipped the two. If he stays healthy, that's, if he stays healthy and is the quarterback we think is, that's probably your NFT champion. You're surrounded by Goodline, Zach Ertz, Alshan Jeffrey, Deshaun Jackson, who's still got it. You know, Nate Sudfeld, I'm willing to bet as not Nick Foles.

I think they like Nate Sudfeld. There's a reason they let Nick Foles walk and didn't try to get anything for him, didn't franchise them, all that. That defense is stacked. That Malik Jackson move is the type of move you win a Super Bowl with. Vinnie Curry is back for cheap. They got a lot of pieces there, and it comes down to whether or not Carson Wentz can play 16 games plus the playoffs.

Yeah, I think that he could win the MVP if he stays healthy. We've talked about how loaded that roster is. Yeah, we've talked about how loaded that roster is. is, you know, we're in complete agreement there. My last one is, it's a tough one for me. It's Mitchell Trubisky. The feeling around Bears camp was so interesting. I mean, so many times over the last few years, there have been all these questions.

You know, what is this going to be like? How is this going to go? And there just aren't that many questions about the Bears. Like, we know what the offense is. We know what it's going to look like. We know what the skill position talent is like. They brought back everyone. The defense for all the moving parts.

is going to be very good again. Can Mitchell Trabiski get better is the only question that matters about this team? It's all that matters is he going to be better in 2019. Hey, and if the answer is no, then they're a nine-win team.

If the answer is yes, then who knows what they can be? It seems so simple, and I know it's probably reductionist to people on the outside, but that is what matters here. And it's in terms of my enjoyment and my happiness during football season,

it's really all that has any, it's the only thing that has any bearing. Hey Robert, I thought of another question. Sure. Can they make a kick? Well, I mean, sure. Well, you can throw that out there, but I feel like the kicking is going to be fine.

It's going to be good enough. Really? It's going to be fine. The kick, the, the vacillation and kind of the, I don't know, the difference in how good or bad the kicking can be, I feel like it's going to be in a pretty narrow range. the Tribisky thing is far more important to me. That's it. I'm done.

I got my kicker dig in. Thank you, buddy. I really appreciate that. All right. That's all we got. I am heading to the Hall of Fame game tonight. We will be back at several more camps. I actually probably will not be, so I may not be at any camps by the next time we record. I actually will be at home this weekend.

Yeah, but you have Hall of Fame. You have Hall of Fame observations. That's true. That is true. I will have that. That's pretty much all I'll have for the next. show. But we'll be back twice next week, as we will be for the rest of the preseason and the rest of the season. Things are back in the full swing. So we are also back in the full swing. As always, guys, thank you so much for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network.

We'll talk to you later.