The Ringer NFL Show - Navigating the Quarterback Crop of the 2018 NFL Draft and More Draft Crushes | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 255)

Episode Date: April 20, 2018

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Kevin Clark discuss the possibility of the Cleveland Browns drafting two quarterbacks (01:30) before debating whether they'd rather draft Josh Allen (19:30), Sam Darnold (25:30), Josh Rosen (28:45), or Baker Mayfield (33:00). Then Danny Kelly joins the show to share some more prospects to keep an eye on (37:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey guys, Robert Mays here on today's Ringer NFL show. We're chatting about the topic from this year's NFL draft, and that's this crop of quarterbacks. As always, we're brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where there are a ton of great shows for you. Chase Serrano made an incredible appearance on the Bill Simmons podcast earlier this week. He and Bill talked about John Wick, Kauai Leonard, really everything you'd expect them to talk about.

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part of the Ring of Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Clark. Kevin, we're less than a week away from round one. I'm not sure how that happened. Well, it seems like the draft process started nine years ago. That's fair, but I guess it just felt like late March about two days ago.

So we're creeping up. And our draft coverage is still and it's kind of, you know, we're really rolling here. We did our first draft preview podcast last week. We're going to do one today. I'm going to be in Los Angeles next week. So we're going to have a ton of stuff coming, just pretty much the entire way through the draft. But I wanted to start this show off by talking about something you wrote earlier this week. You asked a couple brown sources

earlier this spring what you thought might be a dumb question. Yeah, very dumb. And that's whether they, yes. Well, again, you ask a lot of dumb questions. I work with you. I've heard you ask many of them. And to be clear, when I'm about to ask a dumb question, I say I'm about to ask a dumb question. Because one of the best advice has ever got in journalism is don't be afraid to look stupid, but also don't also don't look completely like just self-unaware.

Do you think at some point you'll just have to say, hi, I'm Kevin Clark, I work for the ringer and they won't have to, you won't have to add the qualifier, they'll know it's going to be a dumb question? I still think I have a couple more years to establish myself as someone who asked dumb questions in hopes of getting a good answer.

A lot of times, the dumbest questions a lot of times get the best answers because the people just don't, the folks I'm talking who just don't ever hear it. You know, it's like the Georgia Robwell line, write a sentence that no one's ever read before. If you ask a question no one's ever asked before, people will be disarmed and answer in weird ways.

That is very true. So you asked a couple of Browns people if they would ever consider drafting two quarterbacks, and you got kind of a surprising answer. The answer is yes. Now the answer, I mean, and a resounding yes to the possibility. It wasn't, me, me, you know, and we're thinking about it. It was, yeah, we've investigated it, we've looked into it,

we've discussed it. Is it going to happen? And then we're going to find out. Is it going to happen at one and four? Probably not, although I can tell you with complete confidence that that scenario has at least been thrown against the wall in Ohio. I think there's a lot of scenarios you can go with. I think probably the closest thing would be the Washington 2012 thing where you go RG3 second Kurt Cousins in the fourth round I don't you know the Dallas Cowboys under Jimmy Johnson kick started their whole entire dynasty

by going Troy Aikwin in the first round and then giving up a first round pick in the same year for Steve Walsh although that was the next year's first round pick so it's happened actually Washington did it twice they did it I think in the 70s as well and so I think that's the more likely

scenario even I think two first round quarterbacks is probably a little bit unlikely. Even if they traded the fourth pick and got the bills picks, I think you're looking more at first and second, first and third, something like that, if they went this avenue. So this is fascinating to me. I want to break this down from both the pros and the cons. Let's start with the pros and just kind of why this would even come into someone's mind. And the answer is obvious to me. It's that this is the most important position in sports. Give yourself as many

bites at the apple as you possibly can to find the right guy. And with that in mind, when you consider just how much draft capital this team has, period, that's why they would be the right candidate to do it. I like the idea. I mean, I think it really does make some sense. The drawbacks clearly are, I think, twofold. One, it's just the amount of practice time. Yeah. You can't get those guys enough work to really understand who's the right choice because you're never going to get to that point in your evaluation just because there's not enough reps, there's not enough time. There's not enough game action. Yeah.

Two, I think, and we've talked about this before, is something I firmly believe in. I think handing your franchise to a person changes the complexion of that franchise. It changes the way that people look at you. It changes the way that other free agents and guys in the locker room think about who you are. And if you can't do that, I think the dynamic becomes a little bit more complicated than it's worth when you consider that you could find a superstar with that fourth pick or a high quality starter with that other first round pick. Right. So which of those do you think has most creeps? Well, I want to go back to the positives because I think there's a way to look at it that's kind of interesting to me.

Even if you, I'm not saying I advocate it, but one and four. Let's just take the scenario which you would take Josh Rosen first and if it's possible. Sam Darnold fourth, something like that, right? If you were given the option, if you were a Browns fan and you say you're going to get a franchise quarterback with, as long as you give up two first round picks for, you would take that. You would absolutely take it. Not only that, the reason the Browns had this pick bonanza

is because they passed on Carson Wentz because one of the third round picks is still a Wentz pick. That trade is still paying dividends, I guess you could say. And the fourth pick obviously comes from the Deshawn Watson trade. Browns fans would give up all of this for one of those players. Right? Sure. Yeah, of course.

And so essentially, if you did that strategy, and I understand, I mean, this is just, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, okay? So if you did that strategy, you're essentially doubling your chance for a quarterback, and if you hit and you have a pretty good chance of hitting, let's say you have a 30-devil, 40% chance of hitting on every top five quarterback. Okay, now you have, you've essentially doubled that. If you hit that.

I'm not a math guy. That's all I know. You doubled your chances. That's all I've got for you. I don't want to get into the math. I mean, obviously, I'm not even sure what the hit rate for a top five quarterback is because hit rate is such a subjective thing. Yes. But. Blake Bortle's a hit. He got a second contract. I think that most teams would say yes.

Right, exactly. Kurt Cousins didn't get a second contract, by the way. So neither of those those resins guys did But so I guess what I'm saying is that the only thing A we talk about all the time a franchise quarterback solves all problems And if you have to give up an additional first round pick to Solidify your chances of finding one that's that's fine not only that So you can't trade a quarterback within 30 days of the season

I'm sorry a rookie within 30 days of the season so you would not be able probably to see what you have in both quarterbacks and get trade value this year. You'd have to wait for the next league year. But you'd still get a second round pick? What would you get? What would you get for the loser of that quarterback competition? I think it would depend on how the guy worked in the preseason. It's not a huge deal, but I think that that would be a factor.

But also, again, I think you get a first round pick. If there's a guy who comes in and lights up the world, like there's a guy. Sean Watson did last year, nothing matters. No one's going to complain that they lost 28 slots of draft value if they have what looks to be the franchise quarterback. I agree with everything you said. I think you'd even get a higher pick than the second round pick. I honestly think you get a first rounder back if you traded one of those guys.

It depends if both of them lit it up in the preseason. Then they just pick forward. Sure, but even if they didn't. I mean, like, think about like hypothetically. Let's say the Giants love Rosen, but they want to roll with Eli for a little bit longer. say Rosen is the guy that eventually loses out on that battle and the Giants are sitting there without Eli next year, they're going to trade their first round pick to get Josh Rosen.

There's going to be somebody in this draft that doesn't need a quarterback currently, that will next year, that doesn't have a shot for one of those guys, and their just infatuation with them will carry over to next year and they would trade a first round pick. I would almost guarantee it to you. There were a lot of people, a lot of Browns fans were very, very angry about the story. And one of the things is...

That's so silly. Yeah, whatever. And so they were coming at me and said, we have so many needs. Well, you've had needs for 20 years and nothing has been solved because you didn't have a quarterback. So all of your attention,

someone tweeted at me. I thought it was really funny. Just take a quarterback with every, every pick. Just find a quarter. Just have like nine quarterbacks on the roster. That was, that was...

Is you do with one draft? That's fine. Yeah, just keep doing it. I love all of this stuff in a vacuum. I really did. And I think that the Wenz Watson point is very good and it's valid. My problem is I think that if you take two, you diminish your chances of one of those two guys

turning into Carson-Wenzer to Sean Watson. That makes sense. That's my concern. I think that again, if we're just playing it on a board and it's all on paper, I totally agree. I just think that that's not how this works. I think that the practical elements of it, again, just the practice time, you know,

really handing your team to somebody, if you're not doing that with one guy, I just think it's going to be much more difficult to make sure one of those players develops into the type of quarterback that you want. I agree. Maybe I'm leaning too heavily on that. Maybe I'm wrong.

But that's my hesitation. We've never seen it. We've never seen it in the modern era with picks that high. We've seen it with cousins in RG3, and I think that played out in a way a lot of people didn't expect. I mean, obviously there were so many factors there,

the injuries and all that, and the coaching changes. But I think that the practice rep thing is very, very real, especially if you had Tyrod Taylor there. I mean, I think that that's it. I think that the other downside, again, the trade thing really complicates things. The people I talked to were sort of frustrated about that

if they went that route that they couldn't just, you know, okay, we named this guy at the starter. Okay, this guy's available for a first-round pick. That wouldn't happen. You'd have to wait a season, and then teams are a little more clear on what they're going to do a quarterback. You'd like to be able to trade those guys on August 3rd. 30th or whatever.

The other thing was just, I know this is a weird thing to say, but we're a human, we're all human, right? And everybody in the NFL is human. And one of the things I heard from people inside the NFL is it's just such a weird idea. And this is, I'm talking specifically about two first round quarterbacks. It's such a weird idea that just the unintended consequences are so deep that you just, you're almost scared to do it. Even though winning is the only thing that matters, would there be a rule change?

Would teams be up in arms? Would the guy, you know, would the scouts responsible? You know, would people, you know, think that they're all jerks because they needed a quarterback and then, you know, it hurts their hiring down the line. I'm not, these are all, I'm just saying things I heard throughout the league where you're talking about such a radical idea. What is the fallout? Because as much as we like to say that winning is everything, this is a thing. still a league of humans.

Yeah, I guess it's just have more draft picks and be better at acquiring them. As we've said more than once on this podcast, Sashi Brown died for this. I mean, this is Sashi Brown's legacy here. It is the fact that the Browns sit in such a catbird seat that they might do something radical enough and they have

so much control that it would stem people being up in arms and possibly a rule change. I think Sashi would have done it. I mean, nothing would be out of the question. Sashi clearly didn't care about norms. I mean, they brought in a lot of quote-unquote football guys these past couple months. A lot of guys in Green Bay. By the way, Green Bay drafted Brian Brom in the second round, Matt Flynn in the seventh round, despite three years earlier drafting Aaron Rogers. And there's a lot of Green Bay guys in that building. They brought in Elliott Wolf. Obviously, John Dorsey's running the show. And I know at least Alonzo Highsmith is there. I don't know who else.

That's enough. That's three. It's a critical mass of Green Bay guys. I'm not saying. And at high level positions. Yeah. So, I mean, you just, I'm just saying, Ted Thompson obviously believed in it.

It's not out of the question. I mean, Ted Thompson, we used to just draft a quarterback or bring a new quarterback in every year. I mean, Graham Harrell. Scott Tolzeen, that was a signing.

Tolzian started with the Niners, right? He did. Wow. Yeah, I believe so. I can't remember now how that went. Yeah, you don't remember the biographical details of your old pal, Scott Tolze.

I mean, I should. I should just because, again, tell the people, tell the people your, your incredible brag. It's not an incredible brag. He went to my rival high school. I,

I have an affinity for people from, I did. I did. That's the brag that you and Tolzeen, that the Ewan Tolzeen clashed. It was not a clash. It was a clash of the time. They handled us pretty thoroughly.

We beat them junior year, I guess, but senior year was not, it was not a clash. Get them, Barrington. So, is that what's called? So the one thing I want to say before we kind of put a button on this. I think that what you said about the trade is I agree that that's kind of a downside. But I also think that if you were going to properly evaluate these guys, wouldn't you want to see them both in games?

Like real games? Yes, yes. So that's my concern. I think the best way to do this, again, if we're talking about it more as an experiment and kind of in a controlled environment, you'd give each half the season. That's what you do. And then you decide after year one. getting weirder and weirder. But that's, I think that if you were going to,

if you were going to maximize your chances, again, not taking into account ego's personalities, how the veterans in the locker room are going to react, I think you'd give each guy half the season and you decide at the end. The problem there, again, if we bring it human beings into this,

how well do you think a guy playing for his next contract is going to react to you essentially admitting that you're punting the year to figure out who your quarterback is going to end up being? It's just not going to go over well. I just don't think there's a way to thread the needle. I have some information for you, Robert, and the information is that I would much rather be finding out who the quarterback is

than knowing clearly that you have no quarterback, which has been the case the last couple of years in Cleveland. I'm not sure that you would think that if you were a guy in the last year of his rookie contract. I don't know. Listen, just to put a bow on this, do I think it's going to happen maybe throughout the course of the draft? I certainly would not bet on one and four. and I wouldn't really bet if they get the bills picks

or something like that. I think that they're going to maximize their opportunities. They have the draft capital. Sashi Brown figured out the best way to maximize draft capital, and he did it. And, you know, what is it? It's two picks in the first round, three picks in the second round,

and then it's the most draft capital since 1991. And in the modern era and the salary cap era, it's number one. And the biggest change in all of that is the rookie salary cap. And now draft picks, as weird as it sounds, we've been a draft and develop league for 99 years. Draft picks are more important than ever now. And I think that's something you need to take into account when you think about how much draft capital of the Browns have, which, by the way, makes it all the more frustrating.

Even though Jarvis Landry was traded for a literal punter because they got that fourth round pick by trading Andy Lee, I don't know how smart it was to flip a fourth round pick and then pay the guy $15 million here. But that's neither here nor that. I express my trepidation about this as it was happening. I also don't know about the Tyrod thing.

I like it. I think it's okay. I like Tyrod. I love Tyrod. Okay, I love him. But I don't know if he fits into what they clearly want to do, which seems to be a rebuild.

Now, having said that, they have so many draft picks that they could be, they could be a middle of the road to above average team by 2019, just by virtue of how much cap space and picks they have. Here's what I like Tyra, just like one quick thing before we move on. I like the fact that it's a one year deal, and you're paying him less than pretty much every single free agent quarterback

got on the market. I agree with that. He's getting paid so much less than San Bradford. If you're going to get a veteran quarterback, which they clearly wanted to, I'm not a fan of that strategy overall. We've long discussed this, but if you're going to pick out of the top five anyway,

but if you're going to get one, that to me is worth it. That pick plus how little you're paying him and he's the best guy, that's okay with me because you still have to start winning some games eventually and you still have to start figuring out what the rest of your team is. And if you're going to have to do that with a veteran guy,

I don't mind the way that they acquired him and what they're paying him. I see that. Coming up, we're going to break down the top four quarterbacks in the draft with the little would you rather before welcoming and Danny Kelly for another edition of our draft crushes. But before that, let's take a quick break.

Hey, this is JJ Reddick. You may know me as a basketball player. You may have seen me play during my college career at Duke University or perhaps over the past decade playing in the NBA for the magic, the bucks, the clippers, or the Sixers. Well, today I'm here to tell you about my new show, the JJ Reddick podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. This is where you can find me interviewing athletes

like my current teammate, Joelle and Bede, as well as in-depth conversations with celebrities like the late, late show host, James Corden. The very first episode goes live later this week, so make sure to subscribe to the JJ Reddick podcast, wherever you get your podcast. All right, buddy, let's do this. Like we did last week,

we're going to play a little, would you rather, between a few prospects at a given position, and this time, it's the main event, the quarterbacks. We didn't do it last week because I essentially wanted more time to watch them. It's the only reason we didn't start off with them, just so you guys know. I know how important the quarterbacks are. We're going to keep this contained to the top four guys.

So Lamar Jackson is not going to be involved in this. You know, whatever you think of Mason Rudolph, we could have an hour long quarterback podcast we wanted to. We don't have that sort of wavelength. So let's keep it to Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Baker Mayfield, Josh Allen, essentially the consensus group that people believe are going to be eligible to go in the top five. Among that group, who do you want? I'm going to start with who I don't want.

That's fine. That's a good place to start. Let's process of elimination. I have a question for you. Sure. I'm starting, I had a discussion with Rhino Hamman, editor here at the ringer the other day.

And I came to the realization that I'm now starting to think that Josh Allen is just amazing because I am so at a, wait, no, no, no. So I'm so at a loss for how anyone can think he's good that I must be missing something. And he must be just in every, way I can't see. It's like, you know how jazz? It's the notes you don't play.

Like, if somehow NFL scouts, people who I think are really smart are like this guy rules. And I'm just like, what are you guys watching? And I guess, so let's put that aside to the fact that I assume that Josh Allen must be some otherworldly talent and I'm just missing it because I'm not a developed football mind. I don't want Josh Allen. Okay. Marcus Mosher, the NFL analyst, and he, for Bleacher Report, he tweeted out something I found amazing yesterday. I saw that this week.

Okay. JV. Football in 2011. Josh Allen completed 59% of his passes. Varsity, 2012, 50%. Varsity, 2013, 57%. Community College, Reed League Community College, 2014. 49%.

2016, sophomore year, 56%. 2017, 56%. I have some... What's your takeaway there? So, one of the defining characteristics of the modern NFL is the easy completion, the easy art. The fact that Sam Bradford

completed 70% of his passes two years ago and everyone dunked on it because it was short passes, whatever, I understand why completion percentage can be overrated, but you're going to need to complete like 60% of your pass at the NFL level. And if you're completing 50% at junior varsity and 56% against the teams that Wyoming played, you're not an NFL caliber starter to me. You can't miss throws.

And now I understand, I saw Joel Clatt on Fox the other day. And he was saying the offense, no easy throws. all that stuff. I mean, there's a lot of offenses with no easy throws. There's a couple of things here. Number one in the NFL, you will have easy throws. But beyond that, I mean, there's a lot of guys who complete hard throws consistently. And that's what worries me about Allen. I just think if you cannot complete passes, you will not be good. End of story. Now, you know, there's a Kyle Bowler comparison. Boler actually had a lower complete percentage. But the game was different then. Yeah, sure. But.

there was less I mean the sport was different then I think that having it 10 years later is more problematic to me No I know I absolutely Especially more than 10 years later When did Kyle Bowler coming to the league 2002 or something like that

Yeah You know Brian Billick said this a couple times in the draft process Yeah 2003 exactly 15 years Brian Billick said this a couple times In the draft process And I believe him because he coached Kyle Bowler The number one mistake he made with the baller Was talking himself out of the people around him

You know what I'm saying? So, you know, the wide receivers were bad, you know, the system was bad, whatever. And it turned out just Kyle Boulder was bad. And so with Josh Allen, again, I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I just cannot see this working. I mean, clearly, the tantalizing part of this is just how talented the guy is as a thrower. I mean, that's, I mean, I know you know that, but that's why people are trying to talk themselves into this. And when you watch him, that's obvious. but the guy has a ridiculous canon.

I mean, it's unbelievable how much arm strength this dude has to every level of the field. I mean, there are Rogers-esque throws that he has made, and I don't say that lightly. The problem is that Aaron Rogers is like an absurdly accurate quarterback who puts the ball where he wants to, and Josh Allen does not do that. I mean, to fall in love with the guy's frame and, again, just the spectacle of it all, is just so incredibly short-sighted and misguided to me in this day and age. And my thing is that he is not accurate on short throws. A lot of guys can't place the ball down the field.

They can't, it's just not a strength of theirs. For Josh Allen, he can't place the ball in the short areas of the field. Right. And that is actually my favorite thing about Sam Darnold. You watch Darnold play, and I think this is a super underrated part of playing quarterback in the NFL. You know, we really love when guys put the ball in the money. 45 yards down the sideline and when they can really shape a throw to the second level and place a ball over a corner on the sideline.

And just those are the throws that people just, they get excited about. People don't get excited about a guy putting it on a, about a quarterback, putting it on a guy's hands on a slant. And Sam Darnold does that so consistently. And I feel like that's the part of his game that I didn't appreciate until I really started watching him is just how often those balls get exactly where he wants them to be. that is the basis of kind of why I like him so much, is that in the intermediate and middle part of the field,

he really does have such an uncanny ability to fit things in exactly where he wants to. The other part of his game that I just did not really, again, I don't watch a ton of these guys during the season. I wait until this part of the year to really dig into them because I don't watch a lot of college football. So when I watched him, I really didn't realize how well he moved.

he's very good at kind of extending plays he's a big body there's a little more carson went to his game than i understood i like that a lot so i like him i mean i just like darnold and i think that the drawback obviously is his decision making which again you really dig into it and it's frustrating it's frustrating to watch the guy because there's so much good stuff every once in a while it's like what are you doing a lot of turnovers dude i mean it's almost it's almost it's almost it's sort of a low-grade version of the Allen problem, which is if you're doing this in college, you're going to do it in the pros.

If you're throwing interceptions and inexplicably fumbling, don't fumble the ball, man. So who was the last person that could have been the number one overall pick that we really talked about this with? James Winston. Right. James Winston was a guy who threw the ball

to the other team a lot during his last year in college. And yeah, he was a little bit. different than Donald. He would just throw these random like literally looks like it was intended for the linebacker interceptions. Winston's tape, some of those things were bizarre. Anyway.

No, no, I agree with you. The decision making, it's fairly similar. But go ahead. But we talked about, I think a lot of people talked themselves into it when Winston was coming out. They're saying, well, you know, in the NFL system, it'll make safer throws, everything else. You watch James Winston now?

That is systematic. That is an absolute symptom. Excuse me, symptomatic. That is who he is as a quarterback. I do not get more angry watching any quarterback in the NFL now that Jake Culler does not play on my team than James Winston. It's like, I just start yelling at the TV. And I think that I thought that might have just been taught out of him or just go away when he got to the league just because, again, systems drift and everything else. And it did not.

And that's what I'm really worried about with Donald is that it's just who he is as a quarterback. 15 interceptions, 18 interceptions, and 11 interceptions for Winston. I want to briefly jump off that point for one second because you mentioned, well, it's an NFL system that he'll be in. What NFL system has Winston been in? Because he had Lovey Smith and then he got Dirk Cutter. So I'm still waiting for the NFL system Winston gets to be in. Dirk Cutter shots. That's what this podcast is reserved for.

That's also Lovie Smith shots. That's fair. Trust me, I'm well versed in those. So I want to just kind of transition from that darn-up point talking about Rosen a little bit. Because Rosen, for all this talk about how cerebral he is, he makes a lot of head-scratching decisions too. Totally agree. Josh Rosen will force some balls into the middle of the field decently often. That is a product with him more so in the confidence he has in his ability to kind of dominate that part of the field.

He really trusts himself in that area. At times, it can lead to some fantastic throws. At others, his quarterback or his interception against USC is a perfect example. It's like, what do you doing, man? With Rosen, I'm more tempted to believe that it stems from how much he feels he has to take on his shoulders in that offense. Not a lot of help. You can see him trying to do too much a lot. I think that's more of let me do all of this rather than decision making.

I think with Donald, it's more on the decision-making end of it. So I'm tempted to believe that I think that Rosen can kind of get rid of that aspect of his game when he gets to the NFL, more so than Donald could. And that's why I like him a little bit better. In my mind, I think Donald is not far behind, but I think that it's Rosen and Mayfield to me. Mayfield. Okay, so... I like Mayfield a lot. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that, you know, I'm going to, this is not a contradictory point. It's just something I'm going to bring up. So Josh Allen, according to Pro Football Focus, 66% of his passes were, excuse me, his passing yards were air yards last year. 66% that led the NFL. Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold were among the top quarterbacks, second from bottom and third. from bottom. Luke Falk is 37%. I'm not really sure how that's possible.

But Darnel... Oh, that's not that offense, baby. No, no, no, no. I am sure how it's possible. Of course, but I, you know, I get it. And so I think the air yard thing is really interesting to me. I think that I'm going to give the edge to Rosen based on a lot of the numbers that I've seen, even ahead of Mayfield. you know, Josh Rosen got 116 passer rating in the intermediate part of the field. That's where, that's the bread and butter of the NFL now is the intermediate routes.

You're not going to go deep. The plays take too long to develop. The deep passing has sort of gotten out of the game a little bit, which is sort of also why I dunk on Josh Allen a little bit. When exactly is Josh Allen going to be throwing 70 yards? Aaron Rogers can throw 70 yards. He told me that once. How many times Aaron Rogers thrown 70 yards?

Eight times in the last two years. I think it was once. It was that one throw to Trevor Davis against the lions that incurred a pass interference penalty didn't count. He's done the Hail Mary's a couple times. The Giants won. 70 yards. I guess if you include the arc. Yeah.

No, no, no, right. I don't. The exact geometry of it I'm unaware of. I'm just saying. Let's be clear. I'm just trying to show off my encyclopedic Aaron Rogers knowledge here. So I'm just saying I like a guy like Rosen being able to just shred up the intermediate part of the field. I agree with the decision making.

You have to figure it out. I mean, I think part of this, Robert, is getting with the guy. I mean, life is not a Gruden QB camp, but I do think that there's part of it where you really do just have to get in the room with these guys and figure out why they made the decisions they made. Can they explain it? Can they figure out why they're doing it? And so that's the part none of us can see. If you go into a room and Sam Darnold is much better at explaining what he was doing and when the errors he made than Josh Rosen,

then you have to consider Darnold a little bit more. Okay? So I just think that there's so much we can't see, and that's part of it. The tape study comes in handy so much when talking about decision-making. And we're not privy to that. So with Rosen and Mayfield, there are two things I want to discuss very quickly. Mayfield, my favorite part about him,

is the accuracy. I think that is the one aspect of quarterback play that you cannot teach. And I know he threw into just massive windows. I mean, that offense was so fun to watch. And that was one of my favorite parts of watching his tape is just that offense in general. I'm just like, God, this isn't entertaining and fascinating, creative.

And it really did allow him some easy throws at times. And the degree of difficulty in some of these is very small. The accuracy is fantastic, though. He puts the ball wherever he wants to every level of the field. It reminds me, and this is obvious, a stupid comparison, because everyone's going to make it because they're short. But it's the same way that Breeze and Russell Wilson have arm strength, even though they're small.

Mayfield's the same way. His deep balls will float on him occasionally, but he does have enough oomph on pretty much every single throw to get it where he wants to go. And he can do it all over the place exactly in the pinpoint window that is important. That matters in my mind. Yeah.

What's different about him and Rosen is that Rosen is so good at processing information. Rosen is just such a quick decision maker. He gets his head around incredibly fast on play action. He's able to go through every single receiver. Mayfield is a little bit slower when those windows are not there. And I think that's kind of the decision you have to make. Who do you want to choose between? Do you want Mayfield and kind of the improvisational aspect of it and the accuracy?

Do you want Rosen, bigger body, great in the intermediate areas of the field and so good at kind of exploiting the middle of the field. And it depends on what you want. If I was choosing, if it was me as the general manager, I would pick Baker Mayfield. If I was a current day NFL general manager and I wanted to keep my job, I would pick Josh Rose. Okay. Because I think the floor is higher. The middle of the field, being able to control the middle of the field

for those who haven't studied this, being able to control the middle of the field is like the cheat code of the NFL now. I mean, that's, it's one of the legacies of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning those guys is the middle of the field is wide open in a lot of ways because of how the game was developed. Because, by the way, of the way that the game is legislated

now with, you know, safeties can't come in and just, you know, there used to be, I wrote this a couple weeks ago, but the middle of the field used to be such a forbidden zone that in the George Pumpton book, Paper Lion, they referred to it as the pit because you can never go in there. And he quoted players who were talked about going in, receivers going into the pit once or twice in their career because there were so many big bodies and you just get punished if you want in the middle of the field. Well, 40 years later, the pit is just where all football passes. happen. And I think that's a really interesting trend in the development of game. And you have to be

able to be on top of that if you're a team drafting quarterback right now. So I do think that your point about Mayfield control in the middle of the field is very, very important. That's where Rosen is excellent. Yeah. Or excuse me, that's where, that's no excuse me. Rosen's really good there. But Donald's

accuracy in that area is unbelievable. And I want to say this. I wonder I wonder what Josh Allen's accuracy is there. I want to say this just very quickly before we move on and bring Danny on. Donald is a step down to me, a slight step down. But I like all three of these guys

better than I liked golf or once. Wow. Yeah. You know, Daniel Jeremiah had had Donald as his best passer in three years. I like all three of these guys better than I liked either of them. And I liked golf. Wentz I had my concerns about,

but I like all three of these guys. I liked Wentz more than golf. I did not. I liked golf more in the moment, and I'd probably wrong about that. Dude, it's okay. Dude, everybody is wrong about quarterbacks all the time. Yeah, Jared golf is the number one pick in the draft. I don't want to be like the old takes exposed account or whatever,

but like it's really funny how bad everybody is picking quarterbacks. There's an amazing Sports Illustrated story. I think Peter King wrote it, 1998, where he got all the smartest people on the Manning Leaf debate. And Bill Walsh comes in hot and says, I wouldn't take either of them. I would draft like a pass rusher or something. And then I would draft Brian Greasy later in the draft.

I loved Brian Greasy in college. I probably understood where Bill Walsh was coming from at that point. I don't know about that. That's really funny. I don't know about that one, Robert. I mean, I would have been wrong, obviously. But I love Brian Greasy. Those Michigan teams are very important to me.

Yeah, no, they were a fun team, but I'm not, I mean, I'm not going to draft Brian Greasy over Payton Manning. Yeah, that's probably their, correct choice. All right, Kevin, that's it for quarterbacks. Let's welcome Danny Kelly to the program now for another round of draft crushes. Danny, how you doing, buddy? Man, I'm hanging in there.

Less than a week away now, finally. Danny, every time... At the top of the drafts. Every top of the show. Every time you come on, I want to do the Batman theme. Like the Michael Keaton Batman theme, right? But then I realize that that's not the dark night.

I don't really... Like the Christopher Nolan's slow build. I don't remember, but that doesn't really have a hook. Like, Batman has some, you know, like the weird print song

and the Jack Nicholson one. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of songs I could, I could do, but I'm... We could iron it out. Yeah, we'll iron it out

before the draft, yeah. No, no, before the draft. I just imagine that Danny records us in a cave and like that scene in the Batman begins

when Christian Bail stands and the bats all fly right by him. That's what Danny does every time he comes on the podcast. He does that and he goes and he sits down at a desk right next to it.

I really like that. Let's roll with that visual. Sounds good. Talk to Juliet, see if you can expend some bats. Exactly. You don't need to buy the bats. The bats will come to the dark night.

All right. Let's get right into this. We did the same segment last week. These are just a couple of guys that have caught our eye, players that for whatever reason, we've just developed a particular affinity four as we've watched them a little bit. Kevin, let's start with you.

Who is your first draft crush of the week? Yeah. How about my guy Fred Warner? you guys know this guy? He's a... Not super familiar. Okay, so he's a linebacker from BYU, 6-3-2-30. Good athleticism numbers, obviously,

but I just think he's very versatile. He did a lot at BYU, he's pretty productive, and Lance Zerlund has him as a third to fourth round pick, and I've done a lot of study of him, especially this week. I just think he's a really interesting guy, and Zerlund makes the point

that even though he's an outside linebacker, he is so versatile and he has the body type and athleticism specifically that he can do a lot of different things. He could play big safety if he needs to. I mean, you could put him in a lot of different places, cover skills, all that stuff. And so I think if you're looking, you know, he's not, this is not a Sue Craven situation. He can't, he's not going to be one of the best athletes in the draft and, you know, you can pencil him in as a day one starter. But I think of a really smart team drafts Fred Warner, they're going to get a guy who can do a lot of things.

Yeah, like the middle field coverage guys are going to get more valuable. I just wrote about that. Yeah. I just wrote about it last week, two weeks ago. Yeah. I totally agree. And it's odd because he's an outside linebacker as well. So if you just want him to just be an outside linebacker, he can do that.

It's not a typical sort of safety middle linebacker hybrid. I just think he's a very intriguing prospect because I think there's a lot of teams. I mean, do the Patriots like them? I don't know. I mean, it just seems like the kind of guy who can do a lot of different things on defense where, or yeah, Bill Belichick's going to like him. Danny, who's your first guy? My first guy is running back John Kelly out of Tennessee.

I think he's kind of a draft Twitter darling. He's really fun to watch. So he just runs angry. He's the kind of guy who seeks out contact and welcomes contact. He always like to see that. I'm doing an article for early next week on some of the best scouting terms and scouting lingo. So I'm going to give you a few scouting.

terms for this guy. He's a rolling ball of butcher knives. He's got excellent balance through contact. And he has feet like pistons. That was a Chuck Pagano thing. Rolling ball butcher knives with Chuck Pagano one. I've heard a couple different people say that. It's like it's the best,

I think that's the most catchy. I mean, actually, uh, someone said Khalil Mack is a rolling ball of butcher knives too, actually. That is incorrect. That is incorrect. You would,

you would, there is nothing rolling ball about Cleo Mac. Kliu Mac is like a 6-4 Adonis. That is not an accurate term about Kaleel Mac. I just think it's like it's just a natural rolling balls just move very naturally and have momentum. I don't know if it's a physical description. I think it's supposed to be a physical description. The first time I heard that term was about Maurice Jones Drew.

That makes sense. Oh, yeah. It does not make sense with Kalil Mack. I'll give you guys a step up a quick stat on him. Gilbert Brown was the all-time best rolling ball. There you go. That one's fine. If you built like a ball or a cube,

you can do that. I just always thought it was someone who kind of, I thought it was like how they say runs downhill. I thought that was a description, but that's neither here nor there. All right, Danny, go ahead. All right, so Fantasy Guru's Graham Barfield has a project called Yards Created.

And in the last three draft classes, Kelly finished third and missed tackles forced per attempt behind only Saquan Barclay and Joe Mixon. So this guy breaks a shitload of tackles. He's really fun to watch. And he's also actually really good in the passing game,

I think he's got a natural feel for the passing game. He's got good hands and he's really good in the open field. So I think if he's a, you know, it depends where he lands, but he's kind of guy who I think could produce pretty early on in his career just because he's good in the passing game. And he's a good pass blocker from the backfield. So I like this guy. My only concern, Danny, just kind of, I've watched him a little bit and I'm also just

looking at his overall as measurable, everything else, to be that small. I mean, obviously more from a high perspective. You got some bulk to him. But to be that's willing to not be that explosive. That's my worry is that he's not some guy that's just like, oh my gosh, look at how twitchy he is. And I think that that's a problematic element for a guy that's not on the bigger side. But I do really like him. And again, if this is another draft where you can just find guys in the third and fourth round that can come in and give you instant production.

He seems like one of those types of players. Yeah, absolutely. He's definitely not like the most explosive guy. And like you said, I think he's 205 pounds. So you might have to get a little bit bigger. but just in terms of a mid-round, you know, he's going to grind out yards for you. He's good in the passing game.

I think he can bring a lot of value. My first guy, again, I'm going with somebody that's on the back half of the first round, but somebody I've gotten very familiar with over the last month or so, and it's late in Vanderex from Boise State. I spent some time with him last month. I'm going to be writing about him next week, and I've just watched all of his games. And as you watch him more and more,

so many aspects of his game jump out to you. Obviously, the measurables are absolutely ridiculous. Like, one of the better athletes in the entire draft. Somebody tweeted this to me last, or this week, before they do, I was even writing about him. But his measurables are more or less the exact same as T.J. Watts. When you look at him, yes. When you look at him on mock draftable,

his closest comparisons are Connor Barwin, Khalil Mack, Javan Curse, Anthony Barr. Javon Curse. Yes. He's six foot. Four and a half, 256 pounds. He had a 41.5 inch vertical leap. He runs a 4-6-540.

The guy is just an absurd athlete. And beyond all the explosion is the fact that he really does know how to play linebacker. You know, I think we're tempted so often to make these guys pass rushers. That's what happened with Shane McLean. It's just one of those things where, all right, he has that same body type and other Boise State guy. He's a pass rusher. And eventually we realized that he's a line. with Van derrash, his instincts are just so good in the box.

He has such an ability to sift around tacklers and through the trash, while also having the speed and athleticism to run with guys up the seam and play sideline to sideline. I just, I run out of reasons that he's not a great prospect. At times, I think he can lack a little bit of physicality in the hole. He's not taking on a ton of blockers. He chooses to go around guys a little bit more often. There's a reason for that.

I will write about it later, but I do think overall, he just has such a good feel for the position. And when you combine that with the athletic traits, I don't see why the guy shouldn't go in the top 20. You know who he reminded me of is a faster version of KJ. Wright. Because Wright, to me, has always been, he's just always in the right spot in terms of he sniffs out every screen. and he always kind of understands angles. And like you said, he sifts through the trash, just, you know, just great instincts. And so when I was watching Vanderash, that was kind of what it reminded me of. I think KJ. Wright's really underrated.

I know that some people might think that's maybe like not a great comp, but I think KJ. Wright super underrated still. So that was the kind of guy who I thought of when I saw him. That's an interesting name to throw out there, Danny, because I talked to, I wrote a story this week about the tight ends in the league right now and kind of how much value those guys are having as the positionless element of certain creative offense kind of takes over the league. And I talked to Jeff O'brook, who's the Falcons linebackers coach. And he was talking about how one of the ways to combat guys like that is players like

Devandre Campbell and KJ. Wright. These taller linebackers that can also cover in space that can really prevent size mismatches, while also keeping up with players like Zach Ertz or in this draft a Dallas Goddard or Mike Jaseki. And Van derrash, you could play with him a little bit. If you wanted to say move him outside in your nickel package and have him cover tight ends up the seam as more of a will, those positions are fairly interchangeable in past coverage.

So the fact that he has that frame along with that athleticism what really makes him unique. I mean, the guy is built with and moves like, the guy is built like and moves like Brian Erlocker. I mean, that's not an exaggeration. Wow. I like it. Kevin, who's your second guy? Yeah, so I want to talk about another quarterback

because I think there's going to be a run on quarterbacks. There have been rumblings. There could be six quarterbacks taking in the first round depending on how you view. I think Lamar Jackson is a first round pick. And then Mason Rudolph has made a charge in the last couple weeks. Mason Rudolph, all about the air yards, by the way, second in this class among the top quarterbacks behind.

He throws deep. Behind Josh Allen. But he throws to open guys. And that's different than Josh Allen. And by the way, he hits them. He actually hits his receivers online Josh now, Josh Allen. So I think the concept of value for quarterbacks is going to be very different from a normal year. And I think the value you could get in the second or third round this guy, Kyle Loletta from Richmond.

Benjamin Solac, who's a draft analyst who I think does interesting work. He adjusted completion percentage if everyone had Josh Allen's target depth. And by this measure, Kyle Leda completes 66% of his passes. And Alan obviously completes 59% of his passes. I think that he is an intriguing prospect. I think there have been concerns about his arm strength I've read. I don't see that. Again, I think he's totally fine on tape.

I just think that a team like the Patriots, I know that that's been sort of bandied about a lot. I think a team like that is going to find good value for him as a developmental guy. He's not going to be able to come in, you know, week one and be a starter. But, you know, I think, you know, Lance Erileon's scouting report talked about his leadership. Yeah, obviously good production. I think that he's just, that he's the kind of guy. I don't want to do two between Warner and Lilletta, two people I think the Patriots are going to like. But I am, I am doing that.

Danny, who's your second guy? My second guy is Anthony Miller, a receiver out of Memphis. he's just, it's actually kind of surprising me that we're not talking about this guy more. His production last two years has been ridiculous. Over the last two years, he's caught 191 passes and has 32 touchdowns, which is both the most in FBS,

which by like a lot. So he's a little bit small. He's on a small side, 511, 190, but he's super competitive. He shows up on the field. He was a walk-on at Memphis and kind of, he won their scout team player of the year,

award as a redshirt freshman and kind of just worked his way onto the field and became a star. And I just really like how he plays. He's super competitive, you know, Shifty. He's really, really good at the catch point. I think per PFF, he had six touchdowns on contested catches this year, which is the most in college football. And yeah, he's just really good. Now there's, he makes a lot of these acrobatic catches. He's kind of got the Brandon Marshall thing where he makes these acrobatic, ridiculous catches,

but he also will drop a lot of easy ones. So the drops thing is kind of the big, I guess, concern or whatever with him. But I think he's just a really exciting player. I think he could go in the second round. He's just the kind of guy who can play everywhere on the field inside, outside. He's a red zone guy, you know, like I said, really good at the catch point. And he's just really exciting. It's another one of those guys, Danny, we talked about at that area in the draft where it doesn't stand out as an immediate or obvious star,

but probably a spot in the draft where you can find some really good value. Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think he could be an early contributor. Hey, guys, some breaking news. Luke McCown has announced his retirement. I saw that and I thought Josh McCown was retiring. Hell of a career for you, Luke McCown. All right. My last guy is Ronald Jones from USC.

I was watching some of the running backs behind Seguan Barclay yesterday. Just kind of trying to pick between them, everything else. And I just really like his game. I love how much wiggle there is. I think that he has more upside as a receiver and has more offer as a receiver. than you saw at USC. It's like I like watching him and just the feel he has and the balance everything else.

It's just different than watching guy like Sony and Michelle. I know that people love him and obviously he's so explosive and just an absolute weapon. But when I watch Michelle, I see like a bigger CJ Spiller, if that makes sense. Like he's just so vertical and just doesn't have that wiggle that a guy like Ronald Jones has. And that's my favorite aspect for running backs.

Guys that are able to just find openings, find space and tight areas, make their own yardage. He's my favorite guy in that second tier. And again, I just think that second tier is loaded with quality people. And if you don't get Barclay or you're looking and you're still looking for a running back, there are a lot of quality pieces to be found, I think. The second and third rounds are going to be so much fun. I think that's going to be more fun, maybe even the first round.

There's just so many, yeah, like you said, there's so many high upside, really fun guys. It's the receiver position and the running. back position in particular, I think, are really, really exciting there. So I think those are like the guys that are going to be like fantasy factors in this next year are going to be coming out of the second and third round. 100%. In the last decade in which Luke McCown has been on a roster every year, last year he was cut by the Cowboys, zero touchdown passes, five interceptions.

What a career. The last time Luke McCown through a touchdown. touchdown pass, I was not old enough to drink. Well, speaking of that, that's all we've got for you on a Friday. We'll be back on Tuesday with our next draft preview show. If I survive Coachella, which is definitely a question mark. If I do, I'll be in Los Angeles for the draft again. Well, plenty of talk all week.

For now, thanks for listening to the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks, guys. How you?