The Ringer NFL Show - NFC West QB-Commitment Index

Episode Date: September 23, 2021

Nora and Mal discuss the NFC West and the different relationships and levels of commitment that the head coaches and organizations have with their quarterbacks (4:30). Then they answer a couple listener mail questions (50:15). Hosts: Nora Princiotti and Mallory Rubin Production Assistant: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Arjuna Ramgopal Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's up everybody. I'm JJ John D. Stramski. And I'm Jason Gough, and if you haven't heard, the ringer has gone local. I'm bringing the fire. I'm bringing the rain from the Big Apple with my show, New York, New York. And I'm reping Shottown with my new show The Full Go on All Things Chicago. We've got episodes three nights a week with all the reaction to the local teams and guests. Plus bonus episodes around all the big games and storylines.

So whether you're uptown, downtown, downtown, in the burbs, or a transplant. Make sure you follow New York, New York, and the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm Nora Pinciotti here with Mallory Rubin. Mallory, how you doing on this fine Thursday? Just delighted to be here with you, as always. Fantastic. We're going to have a really great show.

We're going to dive into some of the quarterback coach play caller relationships in the division with the best record in the NFL, the NFC West. But first, let me remind everybody what's coming up after us on this feed. On Friday, we're going to have Ben Solac, Stephen Ruiz, and Kailen Jones. previewing the week three slate. And then on Sunday, I will be back with Kevin Clark, Solac, and Ruiz. We're going to break down everything that we see on Sunday.

All right, Mel. Yeah. We're here to talk about relationships. My favorite thing. That's the topic of the day. I think it's going to be some really juicy stuff. And like I said, we're going to look at some of the relationships that define the NFC West, which is both one of the best divisions in football,

if not the best. Loaded. Stacked. One that is so stacked because, of the coaches and quarterbacks and the relationships between those coaches and quarterbacks. Right? Yes, absolutely. We have a colleague, someone that we have a, you know, a wonderful relationship with ourselves,

Danny Hypitz, who likes to analyze coach quarterback pairings with what he calls the quarterback commitment index, which you can check out on the ringer.com. Danny's done some fabulous pieces. And he really does a good job of putting these on-field-in-meeting-room relationships in the context of just interpersonal dynamics and communication. He often uses the language of romance and marriage, frankly, to define these things. And because good communication is the foundation of any solid partnership, we went to Danny and we asked him, if we could be in an open relationship with the quarterback commitment index here on the Ringer NFL show. And if we could borrow his framing to take a look at where these quarterbacks and coaches stand right now.

Danny? What's up, Malinora? It is Danny Heifitz. As you both know, I have been tracking for the ringer.com great website, the quarterback commitment index for years because, look, quarterbacks teams, they have relationships. like anyone else, it's a relationship, but sometimes it's hard to define, you know, it's like Garoppolo and the Niners. What are we? Like, who is this tray guy? And like, why are they just kind of okay with it? You know, it's complicated sometimes, you know, it's like, you know,

Jared Goff goes to Detroit. Now what? He's really just playing to like, you know, make his ex kind of jealous. Like, that's all the skin in the game he's got, right? You know? So I am so proud that you guys are taking this up today. I am honored. And I'm really excited to see what you guys come up with, especially with the whole San Francisco thing. Like, are they all on the same page there or what? I don't know. But, yeah, please, I'm really looking forward to this. I love it.

I love the communication. I love this honest assessment of content, pairings, because as you said, that's really what this is about. You know, the matchmaking among coaches, coordinators, too, and quarterbacks. it's about communication, commitment, being on the same page and potentially as crucially, acknowledging when you're not and then looking to move on.

Who doesn't love an open relationship? Always seems like a lot of work to me. But hey, if it works for us in high fits and the commitment index, I'm for it. Mallory, I think we're going to get to some people who might not love an open relationship later on in this podcast episode. Thank you to Danny. So wonderful to let him make this a little little menager-tois. I got to.

We got to make sure this pot doesn't get too weird, Mal, please. Can we just be partners with this? I'll do my best. But I liked what you said about the flip side of commitment being sort of knowing when to move on, right? Because one of the biggest things that happened this off season was obviously two teams in this division, the Rams and the 49ers who are going to be the first two teams that we talk about, they made moves to either immediately or eventually upgrade their quarterback positions.

The Rams trading for Matt Stafford, moving on from Jared Goff, the 49ers trading up in the draft to select Trey Lance. Jimmy Garoppolo is obviously still playing there. And what I think is important about those moves is that a couple years ago, we would have ranked or Danny would have ranked those teams. and those prior quarterbacks really high or really well. They would have been in really committed relationships, right? Like Jared got a whole bunch of money.

Yeah. Right. Exactly. And I think the important context here is that we're seeing in this division, this kind of really accelerated, aggressive set of moves, not just to have good quarterback play, but hopefully to have sort of elite game-changing quarterback play.

And the Rams are a really good place to start. with that, right? Because when they traded Jared Goff, it cost them two firsts and a third plus Gough to get Stafford. Plus they took on the second highest dead cap hit in NFL history. Carson Wentz quickly surpass that, but it was it was 24.7 million. And their general manager less need defined it as being worth it because it was a chance, quote, to go from good to great. So we have now seen Matt Stafford through two weeks. They're two and O. They've been playing well. And the question to me is, has it been great? It's obviously been good.

But what does great look like? What raises the ceiling there enough so that it was worth all of that expenditure? And with a quarterback in Jared Goff, who obviously super limited in a lot of ways, but did get them to a Super Bowl. And I think the central question of the Rams offense this season is how markedly different of a quarterback is Matthew Stafford. So through two weeks, have you seen sort of noticeable differentiators

between Goff and Stafford when you've watched the Rams Mel? Absolutely. That's good. As I suspect most football consumers have, there's so much to parse here. You know, as you said up top, we're going to go through all of the teams

in the NFC West, a division that would be 8-0 if not for, of course, Seattle's week two, overtime loss. So Stacks, the bottom and plenty to assess here. But the Rams, you know, and all of the teams, but since we're starting with the Rams, and you wrote a wonderful piece about this on Theringer.com that I would encourage everybody

to go check out and read if you haven't yet. Allow us not only to talk about what's happening with McVeigh and Stafford, what's happening with the Rams, what's happening inside of this division in this race to see who can unlock the most successful and dynamic QB coach scheme pairing. But what that says about football overall right now, right? And how this helps us as a lens into offensive trends across the league. Because these coaches are like offensive wonderkins, right? They're prodigies.

Right. And so when so much of their success rightly connects to or is assessed through the ones of their scheme and their systems, then that moment in time that you're identifying of McVe, Shanahan, saying, I need something else, right? I need another partner to see this through with me is really notable, not only for those teams, but for what it says about where we are right now in terms of offense in the NFL in 2021. Yeah.

Well, so I'm so glad you brought that up because we'll get back to Stafford versus Gough in a second, but I wanted to talk about that. I think it's really connected. I think it's really connected because one of the things that I had to try really hard not to do in that piece was just spend way too much time dunking on Kirk Cousins, somewhat of a national pastime for most of the football consuming public. A shared fashion. Yeah.

But both of those coaches, right, Sean McPey and Kyle Shanahan, at one point in their careers, they both believed they could win with Kirk Cousins. And again, this is not, I don't want to make this about. about Kirk Cousins. But it's so funny to me that that quarterback, that type of quarterback, right, who isn't necessarily going to make, well, I don't know, I don't know if our assessment of Kurt Cousins being a guy that doesn't make massive mistakes ever is really holds in the year 2021.

But solid, you know, able to be elevated with a lot of play action, with smart scheme, with good support. Not someone who's going to sort of transcend your play calling, but who can operate that system, that sort of Mike Shanahan derived system really, really well, both Sean McVey and Kyle Shanahan at one point really, really bought into the idea that that was enough. And the shift to no longer believing that that is enough, I think that happened to this offseason. And that's what's really interesting to me about Stafford. Because it's not as simple to look at, it's not so simple as to look at Stafford's career and go, oh, this is like a Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers,

right? That conversation would be really simple. But Matt Stafford is not that guy. So then the question to me is what is it about him and what have we seen from him through two weeks that makes him worth that upgrade and makes him sort of the piece that Sean McVe felt he could plug in when he decided, you know, I can't just try to call a perfect game every single time. I need someone who can create beyond what I've schemed up for him. And I think the right thing to zero in here is big playability. Because what Stafford has been able to do, it's not, I think the conversation about Stafford this offseason sort of became, oh, he's never had support around him. He'll be in such a better situation.

And that was always a little bit strange to me because in Detroit, Matt Stafford had really good pass catchers. Like, I don't know if we've just heard of Calvin Johnson. Yeah. Like, did he go somewhere? Have we forgotten about that guy? And I'm totally amenable to the possibility that sort of general Detroit Lions rot was not a helpful factor in the career of Matthew Stafford.

Yes. But I think what it obscured is maybe the difference in scheme change, right? Like, Stafford was never playing in that heavy play action, tons of bootleg style of offense that he's now going to be in with McVeigh. And one thing that I've found really interesting over the first couple of games is that both of their week one and week two games, the first time that he ruled, he ruled, out on a QB keeper. Yep.

McVeigh dialed up a big shot play for him. They were going down the field both of those times. Yep. So the difference to me is that in Stafford, the play caller feels like he has a guy who can move beyond his first read and he can be trusted because it's really not that he felt like Jared Gough couldn't, you know, take the shot play down the field to Van Jeperson and make it. It was that I think McVeigh felt like if that big play wasn't there,

Goff was not going to be able to go to his backside and take the check down. He felt like he was going to get just absolutely hit in the face. Right. And then fumble and then, yeah, exactly. So when he says, like McVeigh said something, I believe after week one where he said that you're not limited in anything in the passing game, to me it's those big plays. I think what it opens up, what the parent opens up. Yeah, absolutely.

I think if we pan back out for a second, we should say like a couple things that will seem painfully obvious, but are probably just worth stating for the record quickly before we zoom back in. Elite quarterback play has always been important in the NFL, right? That's not revelatory and that's not what this is about. But we've also been in an era of the NFL, the modern NFL, where there's hardly anything more valuable than a rookie quarterback contract

and being able to build out the rest of your roster around a young, relatively inexpensive quarterback, right? And then when the calculus of that starts to change with a contract or any number of other factors with how your roster is constructed, the Rams are a fascinating team to think about in this respect, not only because of Gough's contract and the cap hit that they were willing to, willing to take to move on from him, but because of the wider organizational state in terms of past trades, the complete and total dearth of high draft picks over a vast, almost like astonishing span of time, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? So within that then, it's also important to remember, and I'm going to lump in the Niners, even though we're going to talk about them

separately in a second, just for a minute here, that Jared Gough and Jimmy Garapolo were quarterbacks that their teams thought could be elite, which again, is just like I think an important thing to reflect on as we then move beyond that moment in time. It's not like at the beginning of the Gough or Garoppolo tenures with those teams, those teams thought they were taking on mediocre quarterbacks. Like Jarragov was selected at the top of the draft. Jimmy G. got a massive contract.

Now, those guys were never, ever. I mean, the Brady comp is, of course, quite apt because Garoppolo was literally on the same team with Tom Brady and New England, right? But their quarterbacks that those teams decided to invest in and build around. That's not my opinion on their caliber, right? I personally never got it with Gough. That's just a statement about actual decisions that the franchise has made. And then they weren't those guys. And with the Rams, McVeigh's lack of confidence in Goff was not exactly a secret, right?

It was quite apparent. It wasn't subtext. It was a vertex. And justifiably so. That is all, of course, enhanced. And this was something that you wrote about in your piece by QBNV in the present-day NFL. If you're hoping to win a Super Bowl, you have to be able to beat Tom Brady. You have to be able to beat Aaron Rogers.

You have to be able to beat Patrick Mahomes. There's not a better quarterback. I mean, there's not a better quarterback in football than Patrick Mahomes, but there's not a better quarterback to talk about in terms of quarterback and coach who can unlock this magic with each other than Mahomes and Reed either, right? And so it's a very handy framework in multiple respects here. Is Matthew Stafford Mahomes? Of course not. Nobody is, and that's not what we're saying, but it's about, to the point you were making a few minutes ago,

that eternal question of whether the scheme makes the quarterback or the quarterback makes the scheme. And as is so often the case in life, not to get too existential here, ideally it's going to be both, right? And it's going to be about balance. And that's why we decided to frame this through the commitment index lens, because that idea of partnership and sharing the load is so essential here. So where are they now and what do we see with Stafford versus Gough? We see joy. We see splendor. I mean, McVeigh and Stafford seem to be genuinely reinvigorated in each other's presence.

You know, Stafford is the third best passerating in the league through the first couple weeks. He's sparking this efficiency resurgence for the Rams, but also that explosiveness resurgence. And, you know, you look at something like the connection with cup, right? And, of course, with a receiver-like cup, like it's never been a question of skill. It's been a question of health the last couple seasons. So if he can stay healthy and that connection can remain intact, it could be really, powerful. And then you look at the strength of the rest of the team. Like PFF's, Kevin Cole tweeted this week that Stafford has faced the NFL's lowest pressure rate this season so far. Now, of course,

like eternal caveat for this entire episode, right? Small sample. We're only through two weeks. That'll be true for everything we say. But there are still encouraging signs and things that you can look at and say, is this sustainable through two weeks? A pressure rate of 20.3% that allows Stafford to take the time to do the thing that you rightly identified, Gough was not doing, right? Which is making the reeds, working through the progressions. If he's not going to be able to hit that shot play and execute on the bootleg, then hit the checkdown, right? Make the smart decision.

Now, it's not that Stafford is a quarterback who will never force a pass or never make a mistake. That is obviously not true. Oh, he is not. That is obviously not true. But the NFL is a league of nuance and subtlety, right? It has to be. that's what distinguishes the team that can actually make a run for a title from the team that can. And I think that what we've seen from the Rams in this pairing so far puts them into

not just hopefully makes the playoff, but in the mix for Super Bowl contention through two weeks. I really feel that way so far. And that's because in part Stafford has the arm talent and strength to hit those. You know, I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you highlighted the shot plays. There's a really good Seth Galena PFF breakdown on those plays and pretextual. particular that the people should check out to look at the breakdown of those through two weeks so far and how much success Stafford is experiencing on them. But he's just flat out not going to make as many mistakes as Gough. He just isn't. He's less limited as a passer and he's less prone

to those catastrophic errors. And so that is a consequential, consequential shift when you're talking about this caliber of team. I agree. that it's consequential enough that they genuinely look like they have the potential to fulfill their expectations as a Super Bowl and thank God Nora because they never have another first round draft pick ever again.

Ever again. I also look if there's anything, this is a discussion for another time if there's anything I think that is going to hold them back this season, it's some regression on defense. But I do want to just highlight as we as we DTR as we define the relationship here. what you said about at one point

these teams believing that their quarterbacks were elite, I agree with you in a sense. Obviously, you don't believe that they could be. Not necessarily that they were. That they could. Well, and you don't, you don't hand out that type of money if you don't believe that that's possible. Always found it baffling, just to state that clearly for the record.

Always found it baffling. Carry on. Mallory was looking at Jared Gough with just like golden retriever head tilt face. I'm sorry, that was a dog analogy. I know this is very foreign to you. I love all animals. How dare you? Frankly, how dare you?

Love all animals. We're going to need Danny Hyvids to relationship moderate this co-host pairing by the end of the show. I just, the one thing that I do want to circle there, though, is that I do think that there's been a little bit of a shift in what we think of as elites. And I do think that it has more to do now than it did a couple years ago. And a lot of this does have to do with that sort of Mahomes envy, like top tier elite playmaker quarterback envy. It has more to do with big playability than efficiency. Now, both are very coveted, very important.

But I think a few years ago we were in this in this world where some of the, you know, taking scheme from college, some of the like play action was just such a cheat code. Right. And it was like the coordinators and the offensive minded code. that run a lot of motion, that run a lot of play action, they can create these just sort of comfortable, nice environments for quarterbacks. And that was still less ubiquitous and therefore more of an advantage than it used to be.

And I think there was a lot more of a thought that, okay, these guys who are pretty good, not great, like they can get you there in that type of scheme. But the league has caught up. And you're seeing more of these defenses that, you know, play a lot of rotating too high safety shells where play action is. a little bit tougher because the moment when you're blind to the defense, well, so much is changing. So I think the pendulum is shifting back a little bit where, okay, someone like Stafford,

Patrick Mahomes, he is not. But he can do that in small sample sizes, right? Like he can do those big explosive plays in a way where you're thinking, okay, nobody else has a Patrick Mahomes. So at least we can try to get a guy who maybe can be Mahomesian in certain situations. situations. Maybe we can just take, you know, take that for a ride. Yeah, it's nothing exists in a vacuum, right? So, you know, we're going to talk about the Niners in a second and the, the top five idea, right? And to your question earlier about, well, is Stafford that guy? Like, in a vacuum, is he a top five NFL quarterback? No, no. But it's relative. And so the question is less, is this person elite period tier one overall? and can this quarterback be elite with this coach on this team in the system? And for McVey and Stafford, it seems like the answer is yes.

What relationship status are we giving them? So I'm going with, it's like second wedding season. But it's, I love second wedding season. Nora, I'm old, so I'm at the point of my life where second wedding season is a real thing. Okay. So I will admit, I'm actually just going through my first. You're on first wedding season. Yeah.

I'm old and washed, so I'm on second wedding season. And let me tell you something. Also, the child of divorce, love second wedding season, you know? Don't settle for what isn't working, whether it's Jared Gop or anything else. Go find true love. Absolutely. I love that. So here is my question for you about going through a second wedding season, which, you know, I'll get there someday.

My hunch is that there's kind of two kinds, right? There's the, we've already done this. The bride's wearing a navy blue like sundress. There's 20 people. It's lovely. Not a lot of fuss. And then there's the other type, which is at least one member of the couple is really invested in showing a lot of people.

Like, I still got it. And they're blowing it out. It's a huge ceremony. They're telling everybody about it. There's tons of photographers. They're posting all over. the place, you know, the dress is elaborate, the cake is elaborate. They're doing it up big. And that, I allege, is the type of second wedding season that Sean McVeigh and Matthew Stafford

are engaging in. Does that ring true to you? In Cabo? This is so if I in Cabo, right? Okay. Now we found it. Yeah. Destination second wedding season. I love it. I love it. Right into the honeymoon phase. You know, this is definitely second wedding season, honeymoon phase. And I think the question is how long the honeymoon phase can last right now. I think it can last for a while. Wow. Romance. All right.

So let's move on to the 49ers, uh, who as we talked about, I think a lot of the same sort of big picture ideas about that chase for an elite quarterback ring true with this team too. However, it's a little more subtle, right? Because I think if you look at the big picture right now, or you look from sort of 30,000 feet, you would say, okay. they kept Jimmy Gropolo. They did not trade him. Then he won the quarterback competition in training camp, which then Kyle Shanhan sort of said was never a quarterback competition.

Right. Then there was all this talk about them platooning Jimmy and Trey Lance. But so far, we're through two weeks. Trey Lance has played four snaps. And they were all in week one. That's right. So if you take...

Not a week two. Confounding. A confounding zero snaps. So if you'd take that global look at this team, it still really looks like Jimmy Grablo's team. However, and I will spoil some of my views on this particular relationship,

I'm not so sure that's as true as it might seem. How do you feel, Mel? I agree. I think that week three will be quite intriguing because this is a huge game. The Rams and the Niners

are in two of the games of the weekend. The Niners are playing Green Bay on Sunday night football. Primetime, big event, everyone's gathering, right? Al Michaels. You want to give them something to look at, you know? And of course, the Rams are playing the Tampa Bay Buccaneers ever heard of them here in week three. So what a couple of matchups we have here. I am with you here.

I'm not, I would say not only not buying the Jimmy G. Presence this season, but I'm quite confused by it. Quite confused by it. I think that it's been, you know, interesting to hear Kyle Shanahan talk in his media access about how he is viewing. Tray Lance's implementation in the game plan, right? The comment that he made after the dearth of snaps in week two was I thought particularly fascinating. This is what he said.

Yeah. It's been two games, and I've never had him in the openers, and I've never had him at a designated time. I plan on doing that week-to-week and whenever I feel like putting them in. You saw one I did in week one, and I never got that urge in week two. Now, some of that, I think, tracks, right?

Who are we to tell Kyle Shanahan when to change anything about his scheme or his game script? Some of that, though, is strange and I think we'll align with our, let's just spoil our relationship status for this one. I think we need to be able to say

what it is as we're talking through it, right? This is... DTR the 49ers for me, Mel. This is distracted boyfriend meme, right? And it's no, it's no secret to anyone. That's the thing. It's no secret to anyone that that's what it is. And so it will be this ever-present looming specter week after week all season long.

You don't trade up to number three in the draft to take a quarterback that is not going to be your quarterback. Now, I do think that you can make this. the case if you wanted to that there's that old like vet QB steadiness factor at play here right we talked about how the division is

and that question and this is also something that that Shanahan has talked about right the team as a whole like you're not just assessing quarterback development and quarterback play in a vacuum so does Jimmy G give the 49ers a better

chance to win right now. Well, I think it's probably fair to say that even that is debatable, right? And then it's certainly fair to say that even if the answer to that is yes, the question is what the tradeoff is when a team has decided to invest this fully in its franchise quarterstone. Now, the other thing there is Lance's college experience, right? Just comparatively few college reps. He only had 17 college starts. So maybe that's a factor here and it's just going to be a few more weeks of getting a little taste here of game action, more practice time, more practice drops, more overall comfort familiarity with the playbook familiarity in the scheme. But I think what is irrefutable is

that this will be Lance's team. It will be his team and ultimately he is going to give the team a better chance to unlock what Shanahan wants to do than Garoppolo can. Garapolo is PFF's 25th rank passer right now. Like even his yards per attempt, which were encouraging in week one, just immediately dipped in week two. Like the team basically couldn't get a first down in the first half against Philly. So what gives here and when will it change? Like this is a classic, this is a when, not an if. You know, Lance is the quarterback that Shanahan wanted.

They were linked to Mack Jones in the draft, right, heavily ahead of the draft. But Lance is ultimately the quarterback that Shanahan wanted. Maybe. Rumor Mill. Ruehaw fodder. right? Or Kyle Shanahan false flag operation. Misdirection. I love it. Tray Lance is a highly accurate passer.

He protects the ball exceptionally well for a young quarterback. He is a really strong arm. He's athletic and productive as a runner as well as a passer. He's a good decision maker. He is the quarterback who should be playing. And we know, we know the Kyle Shanhan is looking. You know how people went and found all those other stock images with the same actors who did the distracted boyfriend meme photo. And it was like there's other photos of the man with the girl who was distracting

him. Like I think that's coming sooner rather than later, you know, because first of all, the team is two and oh. Jimmy's been sort of on the surface has looked okay. But as you said, like, this offense is just so horizontal and so limited right now. I think it's a little, I think it's obscured the extent to which he's. really kind of struggled. And then they have the Packers this week. And my prediction is that we are going to see a good amount of Traylands in this game. Because so another thing Kyle Shanahan said that I thought was really interesting. And, you know, who am I to tell Kyle Shanahan when to feel his urges? But when he explained the thought process behind that, he said, you don't really make decisions based off

your team of totally putting a guy in totally for how that is for him in the future. I think that would be irresponsible for everybody else in the room. You do it again. If it gives you a chance based on what's going on in that game, that game only. So what we're hearing from Kyle Shanahan there is that he's not going to put Trey Lantz in somewhere to just like get him game reps because he's the quarterback of the future. Right. And he wants him to develop.

He's going to do it when he thinks that they have a better chance to win with Trey Lans. Right. Reasonable. The Green Bay Packers. Very reasonable. How about that defense? Defense is, I believe, a little. allowing something close to 10 yards per rush to the edges, to the outside.

Kyle Shanahan loves him some outside zone. Sure does. Do you know what quarterback could make that just a terrifying prospect on Sunday? Is it Trey Lance? It is Trey Lance, Valerie. Ding, ding, ding, you are correct. You are correct. They also, so they've got the Packers and they've got the Seahawks.

Those are two, you know, conference or division rivals. it is my sort of allegation here that the next couple of weeks, because particularly with the Packers, because they simply cannot defend the edge, and also because of some of the field stretching ability that Lance has, which is what they have been missing with Jimmy. I mean, it's a little bit of the sort of we have the before and after with what Stafford's given the Rams so far.

Maybe the 49ers hope that they can get a little bit of that going with Lance just because what he could potentially do down the field. My feeling, the 49ers are distracted boyfriend meme. In the next couple of weeks, I think we are going to see the distracted boyfriend drop the hand of the girlfriend and it's going to turn into the like driving off the highway meme. Yeah. That sounds right. I'm with you.

All right. Speaking of spitting off in directions, no one anticipated. Kyler Murray and the Arizona Cardinals. Wow, what a segue. Wonderful stuff. Thanks, Mal. As innovative as Kyler himself, as dynamic of a playmaker. Thanks, Mal.

Thanks, Mal. Does this make you Cliff Kingsbury in this now? Oh, my God. I don't think I'm cool enough, frankly. All right. So we're going to go through the Cardinals and the Seahawks a little bit faster just because these are obviously preexisting relationships. But we have seen Kyler Murray play at an MVP caliber level through two weeks.

He had 400 yards, three touchdowns, added 31 rushing yards and a rushing touchdown against the Vikings. Was particularly excellent throwing down the field. He was six for seven for 200 yards on throws of 15 or more air yards. And then also excelled under pressure. He was six for 10 for 140 yards against the Vikings. there. Now, let's acknowledge that they, they squeaked out that game on a missed field goal and the Minnesota Vikings, uh, may not be among the cream of the crop in the NFL, but it's been either are the Jacksonville Jaguars. And that's the week three opponent. So here's to a three and no start.

And a three and a three and a start that that maybe nobody really anticipated because I think there's been some sort of hype fatigue with the cardinals. Classic post hype sleeper stuff. right now, you know, the best. When will we learn? Never. Absolutely never. No, this is eternal. Where does all of this put Cliff and Kyler for you right now?

So, Kyler, we know, has been Cliff's dream quarterback since before he was even an NFL head coach. You know, remember when Cliff was still a Texas tack. and he said that he would take Kyler Murray with the first pick if he could and then we got to a moment where he could and this was the thing that excited football fans and football media and probably everyone other than Josh Rosen, right?

The Cardinals had the top pick but they also had Josh Rosen and we know what happened from there. Arizona took Kyler. Tyler Murray chose football over baseball who went first overall and Arizona offloaded Rosen despite having so recently invested that draft capital in him as a top 10 pick.

What was that? This was mutual commitment, right? Mutual promise rings, if you will, because it was early, but the shared commitment was there. Kind of the poster child for aggressively moving on from a quarterback that you'd committed to in a way that maybe if several years ago, we would have been like, well, you can't. Right. Absolutely. Yes. And so on the one hand, it's like, well, you know, if we're, if we're, if we're, if we're,

we're speaking in the language of relationships or commitments. You're like, wow, is that like, are we in rebound territory? But no, it's like, oh, this seemed like such certainty, right? That you had to do something radical, something that seemed almost inconceivable, honestly, inside of the NFL. Like a huge romantic gesture when you find your soulmate. Got to lock it down, right? And how did it go at first?

The hype was there, both for Kingsbury scheme in the NFL and obviously for Kyler Murray as a quarterback prospect. And it, you know, it went like, not, okay, right? The hype was there, the wins were not. Yeah, 510 and 1 in the first season, 8 and 8 last year. Kylie Murray was brilliant in flashes, but ample questions immediately and lastingly about whether Kingsbury's version of the air raid was

going to click in the NFL, and that, that did not go away. In fact, it only compounded week after week. So how much of that was real, how much of that was fair? How much of that was a product of actually measuring against that hype level that the pairing generated immediately, right? When the excitement is so pervasive, then anything that doesn't measure up to that is going to feel like a letdown. But also, it's not just a matter of feeling, right? It's a matter of like, look at the tape and this is what we see. So where are we now?

Well, we're at a moment where the hype seems justified again when we have to ask ourselves if we're being duped, or if this is an actual moment of change. You said correctly that Murray looks like an MVP candidate so far. The Cardinals look like they can contend for a playoff spot, albeit in that hyperstacked division where every team looks like a playoff contender. Kyler is boasting the fifth-best passer rating in the sport right now. His PFF passing grade ranks seventh.

This PFF offense grade ranks fifth. I think one of the keys is that the offense has been balanced. The Cardinals are distributing the ball, both across the zones of the field and across the past catching group. Both of those factors are really, really crucial here. Like, it cannot be just DeAndre Hopkins, as exceptional as he is, and it cannot just be Hopkins on the left side of the field. In week one, it was also Christian Kirk. He's now playing more regularly out of the slot. This unlocks something for Kirk as a player.

In week two, it was Rondell Moore, Max, Williams. This team also, of course, has AJ Green now. I would recommend everyone check out Stephen Ruiz's great ringer piece from after week one. Heck yeah. On whether this start foretells a breakthrough or is, you know, another false indicator. And a couple of the things that Ruiz emphasized rightly. The lack of new plays from Kingsbury. And you put that in the, ooh, maybe not so fast category, right? But then also in the really encouraging category, Kyler Murray's incredible. increased comfort against the blitz and inside of the scheme in year three.

And this is something that Kingsbury and everyone inside the organization are talking about, Year three breakthrough with comfort and fit. So the key question is, is Kingsbury scheme capable of unlocking the offense from Murray? Or is Murray going to have to continue powering the entire offense through basically sheer force of will and wizardry? So I think. And okay. So the dynamic that you're revealing there where it's like,

Kyler's probably doing a little bit more to power this train than Cliff is. I think it's the right one. And I think it's the one that that is just going to be defining of the Cardinals, no matter what this season. I still have a lot of skepticism of what Cliff is doing because, look, it has Kyler's passing down field a little bit more like those jokes about the horizontal raid, I think are ringing a little bit less true so far this season,

which is really encouraging. At the same time, like it's not like the receivers are moving around. So like D'Andre Hopkins and still just lining up on the left side and going. And the, but the ball is going other places. Yes. The ball is going other places and the route tree looks a little bit more. He's running deeper routes. Basically.

So like he's still running them all from the left, but there's still a little bit more diversity of what they're asking him to do from that position. So at least that's something. So what I'm defining this relationship as is their relationship status is kind of time to put a ring on it. Right? Yeah. And this to me means two things. One, it's kind of a put up or shut up year, particularly for Cliff.

I'm not saying they have to win a Super Bowl and actually get a ring, but it's time to show something, at least a winning record, right? Oh, yeah, and sustainable offensive output. Right. And the other thing is that Cliff's got it pretty good in a lot of ways because he might be with someone who's a little bit out of his league. And we hope, because we wish for the best for our guy, Cliff Kingsbury. we hope he can do enough to kind of lock it down this year because otherwise I would have a tough time watching Kyler in the future and not feeling like, wow, that's the one who got away.

Right. Yeah. I still believe that the pairing can not only work and function, but that there's the, the picture fades, right, week after week, year after year, but it's now coming back into focus a little bit. could this actually be something special? And I am just, I'm a stubborn person, you know, but I'm not quite willing to let that dream die.

And so let's do it. Let's put a ring on it. Let's go. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. Last team. The Seattle Seahawks. Who I think have had a little bit of this sort of push

pull on offense. Obviously, they've got Shane Waldron in as the new offensive coordinator who's trying to change up the scheme there a little bit. There has been some back and forth there. I think they used a lot of that sort of taken from the RAM style, tons of motion, tons of play action week one, reverted a little bit in week two. It's very easy, I think, because of the characters involved here, you know, Russell Wilson,

Pete Carroll to focus in on that and to focus in on that push pull. Big picture, though, this team is third in offensive DVOA. they are 19th in defensive DVOA. So ultimately, like, yes, they're sort of looking for something new, something fresh, something that's going to protect the quarterback a little bit better on offense.

That said, how far the Seahawks go this season, I think it's going to have a little bit more to do with their defense. So I don't want to get too carried away in the relationship status here because I think overall, like,

Russ is really good. The Seahawks are good. They got it going on. They got a non. meltdown on the other side of the ball. So part of the reason that I'm really glad we're looking at the entire division today is because the Seahawks give us an interesting inversion of a lot of what we're talking about to this point on the episode.

Russell Wilson is an elite quarterback, right? And has been. Yes. And it has not been a matter of the team or the offensive-minded. prodigy coach needing to find the passer who can unlock everything. It has been the opposite, right? And I, you know, I like, this is a pro Pete Carroll podcast, to be clear. But when you have Russell Wilson, you make two Super Bowls, you win one.

And then you enter this phase where the one of the dominant narratives becomes, and obviously like, you know, we're old enough to remember when Russ was the leading MVP Canada for the first half of last season. but that didn't hold, right? And the primary narrative becomes, why can't they build more fully around Russell Wilson on offense and scheme more effectively around him? Pete Carroll bless him. Can't stop talking about running the football.

Loves to run the football, wants to run the football. Russell Wilson is the best deep ball thrower in the NFL, okay? So when we talk about relationship status and we are introducing the, Waldron new coordinator element here. Where was Waldron previously? He was a McVay assistant. He was the passing game coordinator under the Rams.

And so to see Waldron open with that heavy play action emphasis in week one, to see this highly efficient Wilson outing to see, I mean, unsurprisingly, but still just delightfully, one of the most fun things to watch in football and really sports right now, that deep ball connection with Tyler Lockett. So it was like electric, right? And then is it there in the way it should be in week two? But more crucially, and our colleague Ben Solack wrote a great piece about this on the ringer.com.

I love to plug all of these awesome ringdowns that we have here on the ringer.com. R. Wilson, as electric as he is, and Waldron, as schematically innovative as he can be. and Pete Carroll as, you know, eager to get better, but also still Pete Carole as he is, right? Going to be able to find. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, I believe that's an official next gen step. Are they going to be able to click?

Like, are all of those component parts going to be able to find that synergy and that harmony together? Solac focused on the intermediate passing game as an area that is emblematic of where even though you've got the elite quarterback and you now have this passing game coordinator in place, the preference set doesn't necessarily align. Well, how does that factor into commitment index, right? It's like all of this is for our relationship status, power couple, looking for a spark, right, trying to keep things fresh. But why do you do that? Well, sometimes it's because things have stalled a little, right? Sometimes there are some communication issues.

And I would be remiss if I didn't mention. You know, I love the NFL rumor mill, right? Love it. Love it so much. Russ trade talks were a thing this offseason. Yeah, but then they traded for Gabe Jackson and he was like fine with it. Yes, and he's, you know, even amid all of the rumor mill spinning, he was saying, you know, there's that there's that like an instantly iconic Schefter tweet.

I'm paraphrasing, right? But it was in essence, Russell Wilson has said that he wants to stay in Seattle. However, here are the four teams he would be willing to be traded to. The Cowboys, the Saints, the Raiders, the Bears. Seattle has to find a way to keep Russell Wilson happy and optimize what he does well. It seems absurd in many ways to say any of this about a quarterback

as exceptional as Russell Wilson and a team as consistently successful as Seattle. But again, it's actually healthy to say we got to look for that spark. You got to work for the spark. The flame never lasts, Nora, right? You got to tend to it. I'm an old married person, so I know that.

got to tend it This is amazing The Seahawks are like I think of all of these Of all of these teams And all of these like obviously This is a little bit in jest But like the Seahawks are like a real couple

The Seahawks are like a real relationship It's like it's lasted It's not perfect But they know each other really well And sometimes it's like Okay I'm upset about this Well Would a Gabe Jackson help you feel better

Kind of I guess Sure. But it's not just about presence and compliments, right? It's about really working to understand the issues and address them. It's not just about presence and compliments. I mean, I love both of those things, though, if, you know, anyone in my life happens to be listening to this. I wonder what is, what is Russell Wilson's love language? All right. I think on that note, we're going to put a bow on this. But this has been delightful. Cardinals are putting a ring on it. We're putting a bow on it. We're putting a bow on. on it. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. I think our relationship is thriving. Um, you know what else I think is thriving is the mailbag. Just an incredible set of mailbag questions. I love people just ask funny questions. And I always, I always get a little bit like envious of, oh, I wish I'd thought of that. Um, let's go through this real quick here. So Jordan Miles asks us, if Fields takes the bears to the Super Bowl and Andy Dalton becomes healthy again, do you think

Nat and Hockey will stick to what he said. And what he said, I'm presuming Jordan means is when Andy is healthy, he's our starter, which is what he said on Wednesday. Right. What do you think, Mal? Andy Dalton replacing Justin Fields Super Bowl Week 2022. I, you know, I'm not a seer. Don't have a crystal ball.

But that seems like an unlikely outcome to me. And I think that if the bear's going to be. coaching staff as being honest with themselves, it probably is an unlikely outcome even for them. This was a very odd sequence of events. You know, Fields is starting in week three versus the Browns. Now, obviously, this goes without saying, but to say it anyway, like we are not celebrating

Andy Dalton's left knee injury. You know, he's week to week currently. Nobody ever wants to see anyone get hurt. Awkward transition here now into, it is exciting to see Justin Fields play. And it is something that Bears fans definitely want. I would encourage everyone to listen to the full go with Jason Goff here on the Ringer podcast network.

He put up a quick instant reaction podcast yesterday to the news that Fields would be starting. And that Matt Nagy comment, so like initially, correct me from wrong here, Nora? dispensed through Bears PR as basically a point of clarification after he initially said that the QB decision would be scheme based. So after the game, when Fields went in and then went out and then went back in because Dalton, because of Dalton's health, I think they just, they didn't really know the extent to the injury. And that was when he said the thing about like,

it's scheme. I can't tell you because it's scheme. And it was like, it's not. It's not, buddy. then on Wednesday when I think they had a fuller picture of Andy Dalton's physical situation. It was a little bit more like he actually was sitting in front of reporters and was like when Andy is healthy, he's our starter.

I only thought with this was that it's just like my basic feeling about this is that I totally call shenanigans on the quote. It's almost exactly what Anthony Lynn said about Tyrod Taylor last year. You know, we've heard similar sentiments about Cam Newton, Jared Goff. Tyrod Taylor when he was on the Browns, Joe Flacco. Like, it always ends the same way.

And the, the minute after it's clear that there needs to be a change because another player's not healthy is just not going to be the moment when a coach comes down and says, all right, here we go, we're all in.

This is the moment the field's era has arrived. But like, because the field era should have arrived from Snap 1 of Game 1, and he is the bear franchise quarterback and quarterback of the future, there's just no way. that if he frankly plays competently, forget even exceptionally, that he will not remain in.

I think Maggie like totally knows that. I think the only reason, look, it's a sort of, it's an easy quote to dunk on. That said, my best guess is that the purpose of this quote is that it feels really, really, really, really struggles to the point where they would bench him. Then it kind of opens this, well, we said we were going to do this from the beginning. No, he's not getting benched. Look, yeah, I know there have been some growing pains, but it happens to everybody. And this was the plan all along as opposed to the implication we put fields out there and he stunk so we had to sit him down. I think he's just sort of like covering his ass in case that happens. Build in a loophole early. Interesting. Thinking like a strategist. Well, you know, you know that Matt Nagy. All right.

Before I say something I regret. Daniel, should the dolphins call teams for five of their backup linemen. It couldn't be worse than what they currently have. Right? And, what they currently have is an offensive line that ranks 28th in pass block win rate, according to ESPN, dead last by PFF's past blocking grade. They've given up eight sacks so far. Four of those were on Tua, four of those were on Jacoby Bresset. That is with those quarterbacks getting the ball out like lickety split to his averaging 2.2 seconds, Jacoby 2.3.

They've still been under pressure 29% of the time for Tua, 26% of the time for Berset. So that's really tough, right? when you've got your quarterback getting the ball out, lightning fast and still facing pressure about a third of the time. What do you think, Mal? Should they be making calls? It is such a bummer that Tua is hurt again. And nobody feels worse than the linemen themselves when they're not adequately protecting the quarterback. Like nobody, right?

And the dolphins know that they need to find a way to protect their quarterbacks, whether it's Tua when he's back. or Brissette this week, they're playing the Raiders. Like that pass rush has been prolific. They have got to solve this in a hurry. Yeah, they are considering so many different position swaps. I don't think they're going to go through with them this week with Brissette set to start against the Raiders. They're just benching Kinley and putting in Eichenberg at left guard.

But they're thinking about, okay, do they put Austin Jackson at guard? do they move Robert Hunt to tackle, or do they swap Eichenberg and Davis at left guard and right tackle? These are not players that were, you know, like the question said, other teams backups or street free agents. These were high draft picks.

So I guess the optimistic lens is that they haven't had a chance to kind of find a groove because the team's not sure what a lot of these guys' best positions are in the first place. So maybe you can hope for some improvement there if they, they find a way to gel. I think the less generous lens is the team doesn't feel sure about what these high round draft picks best positions are. And that's really, really concerning when you're talking about two second round picks, a first round pick, a third round pick, making up four out of your five linemen.

And really only Michael Dieter at center is a guy who they're like, okay, no, this is our center. We're good here. I'm not calling other teams just because I think at this. point the investment is so strong that it's like you have to find a way to make it work. Otherwise, it's a massive failing. All right. This has been the ringer NFL show. I'm Nora Princiotti.

She's Mallory Rubin. My partner in all things quarterback play caller relationships and in podcasting. Ben Solac, Stephen Ruiz and Kalin Jones will be coming up next on this feed, previewing the week three games on Friday. I'll be back on Sunday night with Kevin Clark, Solac, and Ruiz to break down all the action from Sunday in week three of the NFL. Check out Mal on the Ringiverse feed on Friday as she breaks down Star Wars Visions with Ben Lindberg. We will be back next Thursday and every Thursday for the entire NFL season.

Thank you to production assistant Isaiah Blakely for production on this episode and to Arjuna Ram Gapal for additional production supervision.