The Ringer NFL Show - NFL Championship Weekend Reaction

Episode Date: January 25, 2021

Kevin Clark and Nora Princiotti react to Tom Brady advancing to his 10th Super Bowl with the Buccaneers' win over Aaron Rodgers and the Packers (2:00). On the AFC side, they talk about the Chiefs' 38-24 victory over the Bills (31:30). Finally, Kevin and Nora preview Super Bowl LV (41:55) and answer some listener questions (52:35). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It is the Ringer NFL show, part of the Ringer podcast Network. I'm Kevin Clark. Great show. Norrinsiani joins me. We did another live version of the podcast. We kicked off as soon as Bill's Chiefs ended. We have a Super Bowl. Chiefs versus Bucks two weeks from today in Tampa.

It is going to be, quite frankly, one of the best quarterback matchups we've ever seen. We get to that and much more, including Aaron Rogers' future in Green Bay, Matt LaFlery's bad decision, and the quarterback market for this off season. It is a special. live edition of the ringer NFL show. I'm joined by Nora Prince. Idi. Nora, we have a Super Bowl. Kevin, Super Bowl.

We've got one more time that we're going to do this together. It's kind of bittersweet. We'll have plenty of offseason content. That started today when Aaron Rogers said, oh, I don't know about my future. We'll get to that much later. It's Tampa Buccaneers against the Kansas City Chiefs. It is the greatest quarterback of all time

against the most talented quarterback in the game. Currently, there's a lot to talk about. We'll start here. It is Bucks 31 Green Bay Packers, 26. Tom Brady, 2036, three touchdown, three interceptions. Mike Evans, 51 yards. Chris Godwin, 110 yards. Aaron Rogers, 33 or 48, four three touchdowns and one interception. Buccaneers are the first wildcard him to make the Super Bowl since 2010. Obviously, enough, it was the Packers then. This game turned on a sequence of four drives. Sean Murphy Bunting gets an interception

that leads to the Scottie Miller 39-yard touchdown. We'll get to that, obviously. There's a lot to unpack. Kevin King, maybe he should be doing something other than than guarding good receivers in the NFL. Top day. Don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Not, hey, every, every time he was targeted, it was content. We'll say that. Every time he was targeted, there was content. Packers open up the first half with a fumble, return to the eight, buck score, touchdown, get a 28 to 10 cushion. And there were mistakes on both sides, but I think that cushion obviously was the determination in the game. Nora, when you think about this game in five, 10 years, you will think what? In five, 10 years, I will think about Tom Brady getting to the Super Bowl in his first year with the Bucks.

But let's actually not talk about five years, 10 years right now because I think it's important to recognize that while that will be the historical impact and the way that we remember this game, the actual win was more about the Buccaneers defense playing an incredible game. And I thought it was fascinating because we will get to the Bills game in just a second. but this was a game, this was a day where we had offenses that have incredible number one receivers, Tyree kills, Stefan Diggs, Devante Adams, who are such cheat codes for their quarterbacks and for their offenses because they can get open so quickly. And I thought that was what was going to be the difference in limiting the buck's ability to get pressure on Aaron Rogers was that he was always going to have Adams getting open so quickly. So he was going to have a quick option. And I was just incredibly impressed with what we saw from the Buccaneers defense playing an aggressive game and just really getting to him. I mean, Shaq Barrett was unbelievable.

So I want to make sure that we give those guys credit because I do think that the big picture and rightfully so is about Brady, the decision he made and what this does for his legacy and what the showdown with Mahomes is going to be like. But the Bucs defense was unbelievable today. So Rogers was pressured 22 times the most he's ever been pressured in a playoff game. for ESPN. He was blitz 23 times second most in his playoff career. Shaq Barrett led the way with seven pressures. Last week, he was pressured on nine of 37 dropbacks. He was playing a different sport than he was last week. I don't really know what past block win rate is. I don't know how it's, it's manufactured or whatever. But according to ESPN, they had a pass block win rate at 50%, which is the worst game of this season. Okay. Doesn't seem good. So I, yeah, whatever it is,

it's not good. They did not play well up front. The loss of David Bacchari reared its ugly head, something we knew about when that happened. But I totally agree with you. And when I think about this Tampa Bay team, we've been saying it for a couple weeks now, this is why you go to Tampa. The fact that there were three interceptions and listen, Brady threw some bad passes today, but the fact that they were able to be bailed out and the fact that the bucks only gave up six points off of three turnovers. That's why you go to Tampa is because you're going to have a supporting cast that can bail you out. Tom Brady was tired of bailing everybody out in New England. Now he gets a little bit of relief. Obviously, the dominant storyline here with the Packers is Matt Liffler on the

coaching decisions because I think that we're going to be talking about this, this field going on fourth down for, I don't know, six months. Essentially what happens is there's two to weight left in the game. The Packers decided to kick a field goal instead of go for and on four. down. Aaron Rogers did not seem happy about it. I think that obviously that changes the way the third down was was navigated because obviously Aaron Rogers did not try to run on on third down. He probably should have. He probably gotten four or five yards, gotten closer to the pile on all that stuff. And Kevin, he said that he didn't know. Rogers said just in case people didn't see it. Roger said after the game that he figured that they might maybe go for it on fourth down. So when he

was on third down, he wasn't thinking this is my last shot, which, you know, that's a little bit of emo Rogers in the post game feeling sad and stirring the pot a little bit, maybe, but seems like that's true. And he should know what the plan is for fourth down before third down because there's so many adjustments and so many decisions that he's making there. So just that's, that's not a, you know, that's not an intellectual argument that we're making here. Like that is what he said happened. right. So whether or not he would have beaten JPP to the pylon is a separate argument than just the idea of having the most efficient red zone offense in football, having Devante Adams, so if you look at his target stats and all that stuff, both inside the 10 and inside the 20,

he's a dominant force down there. And he should get, having another crack at having to score a touchdown is what you want in those situations. That's the reason you build an offense like the Packers is to be able to go forward and fourth down. And so I was blown away by that. When you think about Lefleur. I mean, obviously he said he didn't bring his A game today. That was code for I got out-coached. When you think about Leflur and everything that's going to go into this offseason because of the way Leflur acted today. And by the way, Mike Petton, not a great day for him. Tony Dungey said that end of half sequence was maybe the worst design defense he's ever seen. Just a disaster from the Packers coaching staff. You think what? Well, first of all, Greg Williams would like a word maybe, but I think

they goofed. I was thinking about that. Yeah. I think they goofed. I think it's a really good coaching stuff that goofed because let's put this in context. The Packers were one of the most aggressive teams on fourth downs in the NFL all season, which that's probably what Aaron Rogers has in his mind when he's on third down thinking, I got two more tries at this and why it feels so shocking since they didn't do that and really cost themselves that way. Lefleur said something about the fact that they hadn't gone anywhere on the previous three downs influencing the decision not to go for it, which I don't understand at all because

they went for so many fourth downs throughout the same. season. And what do you think happened on the downs before then on in those instances so that you got to a fourth down? It could have been that great. Right. So that I don't understand. You say things in a post game press conference when there's just questions flying and everybody's sad and whatever. So we're not going to hang in for that. But I still really think that this game does not define Matt Lafleur. I think he's a very good coach. But I think in a big moment, he's seriously goofed. And we will see what. what the damage done with Rogers,

who seems fairly upset and was talking about his future and doing all of that fun stuff. And Aaron Rogers, great for content. Kevin King, great for content during the game. Aaron Rogers, great for content after the game. We'll see what the fallout is from that. But in my opinion, Matt Lafleur is a very good coach who made a very big error.

So there's a couple of things to unpack from Brady's side of it. because first of all, he has now played in 10 Super Bowls. There are just so many stats that are mind-blowing about the whole thing. First of all, the fact that he's played more Super Bowls than the Bucks have playoff wins in their entire franchise history. Interesting to me. But then beyond that, he has a winning record in the playoffs when he has three interceptions.

And I think when you talk about just the situation of football at the end of the half, the Scottie Miller touchdown, I remember asking someone who knew a couple of years ago, like why do the Patriots win these games where it seems like there's not a lot separating them. And I've seen because Brady and obviously by extension Belichick, they just step on guys next and they score at the end of halves. And they score when they know, you know, they're getting the ball back, that kind of stuff. And they just get these little edges and then all of a sudden you're losing by 18 points as the Packers were in this one. And so I thought that there was, I thought that this was a classic Brady game, obviously until he started making those mistakes in the third and fourth quarter. but and and I am I thought that maybe with Arians there'd be more of a

just from a season standpoint that there'd be more of a learning curve and and I'm so impressed at his ability to get that offense under his belt the fact that he had I think 11 air yards on average this year obviously this week that is I think I think his second highest this season this is a quarterback who may not only made the right decision but conquered that offense and figured out how to how to how to thrive in it as soon as possible. You've covered Tom Brady. You know him maybe more than any other superstar in this league because of your time with him. When you were watching this today, you thought what if his comfort level with this Bucks team and now you think what of it going

in playing Kansas City in two weeks? The comfort level is indescribable because at this point, there is almost nothing he could face on a football field that he hasn't already seen. And you can tell Bruce Ariens, no risk it, no biscuit. That's his thing. Being aggressive is not a shock from him, but I've got to think that when they set up the Scotty Miller touchdown before the half, they're going to kick, but then they decide not to. And whether that's Arians thinking let's step on their throats or there's a little bit in the back of his mind going, I want to do this and I have Tom Brady to execute it. I've got to believe that that influences either the decision making or at least the comfort with the decision. And that's something that

I don't know if we talk about it enough or if anybody does because it's just sort of hard to quantify and hard to talk about. But when you are in those moments, having someone around who's just been there before and has that, it's like whatever the mental equivalent of muscle memory is of having those situations when there's so much on the line go right and just work out, there's a faith, I think, that emanates from that that guys really latch on to. And if you look at it, this team, I don't know. I think they did have a learning curve because we're talking about one of the most high variance teams. I mean, there's a reason they got just torched by the Saints the first two times they played. They got better the season went along. I didn't think the learning curve would be, would would end by January. I didn't think they could make the Super Bowl this year is what I'm saying. I wonder this is we're going to loop back because I have a habit of getting off on tangents. But I wonder how their season would be if they had had an

early by week because it seems like they really used that week 13 by to their advantage. And I wonder if they would have been able to make big strides in a quasi similar way if it had come in the middle of the season because that would have impacted how we looked at them as the year went on. I don't know if that's the case, right? Because maybe they were more ready to use that time once they'd already been together for however many months. There's no way. You know, this is the hypothetical thing, but I'm just thinking about it because we spent so much time watching this team going, man, if they could just put it together, they would be really good, but it doesn't feel like they could put it together. Or at least they're running out of time to do so. And by the way,

at least in the first half of this game, they were doing well because they were converting third downs at an unsustainable rate. Now, again, the presence of Tom Brady. Go ahead. I've heard people say, talk about this, okay? And I've heard both sides of the third down debate. I'm of the Warren Sharp school where people say, okay, and don't get, don't ever get to third down.

CFL mentality, right? Just convert first downs on first down. So you don't have to worry about it. But I would also say, and I've heard this argument from PFF and some of the other guys, that the bucks, because of their ability to hit home runs, because of their chunk plays, do a little bit have more of a sustainable third down offense than most. Their ability, I think what Ben Boland tweeted, like 122 of the first 124 yards in the game were on third down for the bucks passing yards.

Like there's something there where when they want the home run, they can get it. I don't think they should be in third and nine forever, but I do think they have the capability to hit those home runs. Chris Sims on our podcast last week, he said, this is becoming a home run and strikeout league. The bucks are the home run and strikeout team. And I kind of think that I don't know. if it's sustainable for 10 years, but it's certainly sustainable on a,

from a, from a drive to drive basis. I think the, be a home run and strikeout team, that part is fine with me. I'm, I'm interested in the play design and the play calling because it feels like they use a completely different set of plays

when they are in third and eight versus first and 10. And a little bit more balance there would at least be in line with a lot of what we know about efficiency. and not using first down runs all the time. And it just, just a little bit, you know, just a little bit. But I shouldn't be complaining about them because they're going to the Super Bowl. And it seems to have worked out. But it's the type of thing that you don't know if it's going to catch up with a team until it does.

I do think that's another thing that having Brady kind of influences where it just seems like those bad situations, they're a little bit easier to get out of when there's someone so steady there. So it's just, it's really remarkable. It's almost, it was kind of cracking me up. Like just how is this happening again? How is this a person? Is that how is Tom Brady? Is that your question? Yeah. How is Tom Brady? I, I don't know if I had that specific reaction, but I'm certainly blown away by him. So I'll go there put together some numbers. 10 Super Bowl starts twice as many as any other quarterback. 33 playoff wins more than twice as many as any other quarterback. first quarterback ever to win both conferences, second quarterback ever to get to the Super Bowl

with two teams. He has the chance to win the Super Bowl by beating Drew Breeze, Aaron Rogers, and Patrick Mahomes. He's 43 years old. This is not normal. I'm going to go into Kevin O'Connor mode and say, do not take this for granted. We will never see anything like this. And I know that Patrick Mahomes is a better quarterback right now, but it would take, I mean, even Aaron Rogers, I saw some stats that just to match Brady's wins, it would take another decade from him, from Aaron Rogers. And that's someone who is, you know, basically probably number two as far as talent goes. And so I think that there's just, I think we have trouble putting how amazing this whole thing is in perspective. And we had that trouble in New England as well. And you, you know, you were there for that. But at some point, it just

got ridiculous. They would make the conference championship game every single year. They would do things nobody else did. I mean, it was like, you know, I think as football fans, and I know that they're not universally beloved, but I think at some point we have to say that we're lucky to be football observers and football fans in the era of Tom Brady. I think that's absolutely true. I wonder if I think it's so funny or not that I think it's purely funny, but there is something that just is so ridiculous that it makes me laugh about what he's doing. And I wonder if it is because I've been around him a little bit. And he's, he's, I mean, he's not just a guy. He's very, famous and he has a very nice clothes and he's very smooth and he's married to Giselle and

whatever. But like he comes in every day and he works really hard and he talks to people. And one time I saw him trip over a duffel bag and he's still a person. Tell us about the duffel bag. He was just walking through the locker room. Somebody's duffel bag was on the ground and there was an errant strap and his boot got sort of caught in the little handle on that, you know, the handle that's on the double bag strap that cushions it. so that it can hang off your shoulder. Sure. So at the front of his boot got a little caught up in that,

and he just sort of almost tripped. But he didn't fall. He just, you know, he skipped a step, and then he caught himself, and he kept walking. And, you know, I snickered to myself, and now he's going to his 10th Super Bowl. So I don't know. Who's got the last laugh now?

So we went through all of his accomplishments. We went through the fact that it's almost impossible to put it all in perspective, how good of a quarterback he is. and Matt Lafleur looked at that guy and said, I'm going to give the ball back to him. In the fourth quarter, I'm going to keep the field goal.

And I want to get back to the Packers here because there's just something going for the next six months and need to be unpacked here. That was one of the worst decisions of, I don't know, that I can remember. And I know that we're getting to a tipping point where we're going to criticize, I think the mainstream media has gotten to this point where we're going to criticize really bad fourth down and field goal decisions.

Same with punting as well. And I think that's probably good for the, mainstream discourse. And I think that at some point it becomes a tipping point when we talk about it too much. But in this case, we're not talking about it too much. This changed the game. It's the reason, as you said, the Aaron Rogers was emo Aaron Rogers after the game. And I just feel like there's going to be some baggage here with the Packers for the next few months, maybe the next year. I mean, listen, it's a totally different situation. But, you know, the Packers had that that collapse in Seattle a couple years ago. Mike McCarthy gives up play calling all that stuff. And it just seemed like there

was a hangover into the next year as well. That happens all the time with some of these bad losses where a team was so close, as we say, the Sisyphus thing, they get so close and the rock, the rock rolls back down. I think losses can have a hangover effect into another season. And I think this is the type if Matt Lepleur is not careful, that would linger for a little bit. Roger said it wasn't going to haunt him, but that it was just going to sting for a while. I think the thing that if I were him, I imagine I would be thinking about is,

is he never got the ball back. He never got another chance because of that decision. And if you are in the psyche of an elite quarterback like that, they always think they can do it. But he never got a chance to do it. And that's the type of thing that in someone like that in their mind, it confessed her. And he said he doesn't think it well and we'll see.

But it's a really big decision. It's a really, really, really big decision. And I don't think that that does all of the fabulous things that they did this year. I mean, the Green Bay Packers were just a joy to watch this season. And I think it was so incredible to see the combination of an offense that's built schematically to actually elevate and mask some flaws in a quarterback, play with a quarterback who's quite often flawless and who doesn't need help. And I hope that things don't get in the way of that getting to continue.

Now they have a bunch of free agents. Things will be different. Obviously, we'll see what happens with Rogers. but that is the type of thing, the type of play, the type of moment in a game with huge consequences where you go, that was what did it in a game that might have been this team in this window. It might have been their best shot. And I think the foundation there is stable enough so that it doesn't have to be, you know, they're getting so little from their draft class, which we all know and has been talked to death.

You hit on next year, you get some more contributors, refresh the deck, whatever. But this team was not their last best chance, but certainly one of them. So that's also the type of thing that kind of lingering effects is just that I can imagine that that team with how dominant they'd been on offense looked around in the locker room and felt like this is the year.

And then one thing happens and it's all down the drain. So again, we will, we'll wait and see. But I hope for all of us who love watching great football that it all works out as well as it can. Because if they could run it back, it would be fun to keep watching it. Speaking of well-timed futures, Shaq Barrett's going to be a free agent after this. And he's going to make a lot of money. And along with, I mean, just the fact that he and Vita Vea, who was huge today, literally and figuratively, JPP, who we talked about last week on this pod, is just, it's just all the way back.

This is just a nasty, yeah. Great singer, Kevin. This is just a nasty defense. I kind of like it. So, all right. So there are, obviously huge questions with Rogers now. So he says, a lot of guys' futures, they're uncertain myself included. He sounded according to beat writers, a little bit like a guy who doesn't know if he's

the quarterback of this football team. This has been Aaron in a couple of instances over the past couple of months. He came on Kyle Brand's 10 questions. He said he thought the Packers were going to move on. sooner rather than later. There have been kind of hints at this. Obviously, they drafted his replacement in April, but, you know, Rogers was Brett Farb's replacement and Brett Farb played three further years to the point

that they drafted another quarterback in the second round in Brian Brom in 2008. That was very complicated and messy. But I think that the Packers play the long game with the quarterback position kind of out of habit. And I wouldn't read too much into it. He has $31 million in dead money. I think that there's, I, you know, I think next year is the decision year. If you look at the way his contract is, there's basically an out in 2020.

The dead money, I think would fall to something like 17 million. Yeah. It's not nothing, but it's. And I think that there's, I think that next year is the year where they decide whether or not they're going to commit to Jordan Love and trade and trade Aaron Rogers or not. I think that there was some, listen, anything's possible. If Aaron Rogers demands a trade, I don't know what happens. But if it's just the kind of thing.

where he's he's waiting for the Packers to make a move. I don't know because I saw some things today. Maybe he'll go to the Colts. Maybe he'll go. I saw the Saints. The Saints are $88 million over the Caput is 37 million of credit card fraud or whatever, whatever we're calling it. But that's just, I just don't feel like that's, that's going to happen. I think that he runs it back and they run that back with this team. I do think we tend to overrate how how long a window is for any given team. And so I don't think you can just pencil in the Packers for next year, even though Aaron Rogers is one of the best players in the game and could obviously win the MVP next year.

But I will say I would be surprised if he moves this year. I would too. The thing with how Rogers communicates to, it's not just that he's moody and has a tendency toward dramatic flair, especially when it comes to his quarterbacking future in Green Bay. He's also just like a little goopy cosmic, no matter what it's about.

Last week when he was going on about how joyful he felt to see fans again and to be playing with the team in that state. He was talking about people's signs and like he just he's, that's his vibe. So I'm calling a vibe check on Aaron Rogers sooner than I'm calling a, let's figure out which other football team Aaron Rogers is going to play for. I would also say that no one in the NFL is, is more, puts more meaning behind words than Aaron Rogers.

He knows when to say things. how to say them there's a you know when am i going to take a dig at this guy or this coach or whatever like he is so um he is so everything is mapped out in his head he's very smart is the reason he's going to host jeopardy in a couple weeks here okay and and so i think that there's i think maybe part of this was just to get i saw a couple people who are kind of plugged in with the packers say this that maybe this is just the a launching off point for for there to be changes whether that's roster, whether that's offense or whatever, whether that's decision making, that he's just kind of announcing his unhappiness and that that will propel itself into the offseason.

So I wouldn't take everything Aaron Rogers says tonight at face value and that maybe, I don't know if everything he's saying tonight is about the fact that he might not come back next year. I think he comes back next year. I just think there's probably a couple of different things behind those comments that he wants, maybe he wants a little more power in the organization. I don't know, but I just, I think that there's a reason he said those comments tonight. Everything he says is purposeful, but we don't know what the purpose is, right? The purpose could be accruing power to influence certain decisions that will be made over the next however many months.

The purpose could be, I want a GTFO. Or the purpose could be, my feelings hurt and I want to make sure everybody knows it. So, or a zillion other things. So again, I think what we both agree on and what people should think about is just that he's not saying anything by accident, but we don't know quite what the intention is behind those words, even though they're certainly chosen carefully. Yeah. He's not stumbling into saying anything.

That's not Aaron Rogers. Like if you ever interviewed him, he's that's very deliberate and he knows what to say. And so there is something behind it. If I had to guess, again, it would be something like he just wants to announce that he is just a little bit perturbed by the events of tonight and the events of this year and the events of the last eight months. I mean, there's a reason that he said that in August. instead he thinks that that, you know, he drank a lot of scotch when Jordan Love was, was, was selected. I mean, that was the, that was sort of a reminder of his NFL, I don't know, his NFL career winding down at some point.

I talked to Brian Guttencunst, the GM, a couple of weeks ago, and he said that nothing this year has impacted the long-term succession plan in Green Bay, because that was always about having, having another option. And so I don't think that the fact that he won the MVP has changed their timeline at all, quite frankly. And that's according to the team. And I'm intrigued to see what happens after next year. But I do think they try to run it back. Matt Liffler was asked about it after the game. And he said, hell, yeah, I won him back. He's our leader.

I think it ends up being the status quo. Again, unless Aaron Rogers plays real, real hard ball, which I would be slightly surprised by. And it's a tough year to, it's a tough off season to play hardball, right? Because there's all this potential quarterback movement. but so many teams are going to be cash strapped. So it's going to influence who goes where if this were, now Aaron Rogers is of a talent level where if you want it bad enough, he could probably get something that he wants.

But this is a tough year to choose to play hardball in, particularly when you come carrying a $37 million cap hit. Yes. Tom Brady once told a coach, according to E.O. Conner from ESPN, that if Aaron Rogers played in the Belichick system and had that level of defensive scouting and that offensive system and all that stuff, he'd throw up for 7,000 yards because Aaron Rogers, according to Tom Brady, is significantly more talented than Tom Brady.

I've always found that interesting. And I've always wondered, you know, I think Tom, I think Rogers had something like 4,200 yards this year or something like that, 4,600 yards. He was a little bit short of 7,000, okay? But I think that there's, I've always wondered if he forced his way out and played in a place like that. I don't even think that the New England would be the best system for him. I think, you know, someplace like San Francisco, which is just a, a more, which Shanahan is just a better version of Matlfleur, something like that. Obviously, you know, he's never, he's not going to go to L.A., but somebody like McVeigh, I think that there are scenarios that are just out of sort of fantasy that would be amazing for Aaron Rogers.

I just don't know if they're realistic. I think that the Packers are going to keep them. And I think that we can have this discussion next year and it's going to be a little more in earnest. So that's it. Last thing, Kevin King, Kevin King, maybe one of the worst games we've seen in a big spot. Did not time a jump particularly well early in the game against Mike Evans. Gives up the Scotty Miller touchdown. Scottie Miller said that there just wasn't a lot of depth there.

And then obviously essentially ends the game at the end there. What did you think of the Packers defense and kind of can just can Kevin King come back? If Josh Norman can come back, I guess this is a tough day to be saying if Josh Norman can come back. But if Josh Norman can come back, anybody can come back. Kevin King can come back. I actually also think the Scotty Miller touchdown was a little bit more on the defense they were in on the play call than it was purely on Kevin King. It was man to man. It was man. It was man. It was man to man. But, you know, it was not. It was not good. Mike Patton's defense, I think there's, there's an internet idea of what it is that's probably worse than what it actually is. It probably was closer to the Twitter approximation today is how I end up. Are you saying Mike Patton's defense is a meme? It's kind of, yeah, well, I think it's treated like a meme and today it went full meme. Okay, that's interesting.

Okay. Yeah, no, I get that. I think that there's, I think with with King, I think if you're going to kind of argue anything, it will be the late flag. But obviously he was he was tugging on his jersey. I think was Bob Sturm said he was water skiing on the receiver, which I think was a, was a good way to put it. I do think, you know, Scott Hulay made this point.

It's tough when they don't call it all game, but that's just a penalty. It was just a penalty. I do think, you know, Scott Puella made the point, the, the, let them play thing for the entire game and then throwing the flag at the end does complicate things because I think that you get into a situation where. The players doesn't know the line. Like I remember the old line. I remember Pereira told him this, but the Seahawks is they would always commit like rampant

past interference in the first couple of plays in the game. So they just establish the line. Like the line is very important. The line in the sand that says this is a penalty and this isn't. And when everything goes by without a penalty, I think players get a little comfortable with that. And especially late in the game. And I can see why King wouldn't know where that line is and would try to get away with

something at the end. But there's stuff that goes. either way because of calls in every game. I just don't, I don't have the energy for it. It's the penalty. Well, also, also, you're actually right, though. They talk about that stuff at half time. It's, it's, hey, they're not calling this.

You can go a little heavy on XYZ, but you didn't have to give the ball back to Tom Brady. Right. You didn't have to give the ball back to Tom Brady. And also at a certain point, like, he knows he's not supposed to grab a handful of Jersey and tug. Yep. Tough one. Well, you knew a lot of.

of things and that didn't help on Sunday. Tough day for our guy. Buffalo bills, Kansas, Chiefs. Chiefs 38, bills 24. Patrick Mahomes, 28, 29 of 38, 125 yards. Josh Allen, 28 of 48, 28, 2887 yards, two touchdowns.

One reception, 88 rushing yards. I don't know if we learned anything on Sunday because I thought the chiefs were always better than the bills. I thought that there was a lot of talk this week about, you know, Josh Allen closing the gap on Patrick Mahomes. I thought that was a little silly. but I did think, especially this morning, when you hear about how bad Mahomes' turf toe is, obviously been in concussion protocol all week, that maybe we'd see 80% Mahomes, 75% Mahomes.

And I was curious to see that version against Josh Allen and how it shakes out. Instead, I think we got 100% Mahomes. And if it's not 100% Mahomes, that's even scarier. Yikes. I think it was 100% Mahomes. But if that's still coming down the pipeline, then. Maximal, Max Mahomes. Fast and furious.

Is that what this is? That's what this sounds like. He was incredible. They're incredible. I mean, the problem with the chiefs is usually that it's really hard to defend a team where you have to choose between Tyree Kill and Travis Kelsey. And the bills couldn't stop either one of them. And when that's working and Mahomes is moving around and creating plays and just doing stupid stuff, like that little underhand touchdown throw to Kelsey.

Unbelievable. Like if I think we said a bunch of times over the course of the season when they were winning those close games, are they just bored? And I don't have a better explanation than that. It just seems like they were a little, little, taking a little snooze, wait until the right moment. And here they are. And in some ways, you know, I was so, I think I thought the Packers were going to beat the

bucks. But when we look at this Super Bowl matchup, it's kind of nice to have it. be the bucks because there aren't great arguments for how to beat the chiefs that are rooted in logic. I'm almost more comfortable just going, well, Tom Brady, Tom Brady knows how to win the big one than I am being like, well, yeah, but Devante Adams can uncover faster than any other receiver in the NFL. Oh, except for Tyree Kill who's on the other team. Jeez. Like, it's, it's not fair. It's incredible. The best compliment I can give the chiefs, so they can do whatever they want on a football field at any time.

I bet Patrick Mahomes has never tripped over a doubleback. I bet he has. I bet he has. Should we find out? He's been around baseball. He's been around baseball and all that stuff. Yeah, sure. That's true.

That's a lot about it. So we got back into this habit as a planet of spotting the team playing Patrick Mahomes two scores and we're getting back to it not mattering. And that's, again, amazing. It's another thing you just cannot take for granted that the bills were. were up 9-0 in the same way that the Titans were up in this game last year, two scores. And everyone said, well, here come the Chiefs. No one, you know, there was a meme that was just like, you know, Chiefs fans when they're

down, Chiefs fans when they're up. And both photos were Patrick Mahomes smiling. They don't care. I don't know the stat now, but I do know that a couple weeks ago, the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes won 88% of their games when they were down two scores. And the NFL average on that is 15%. You're not supposed to do this regularly. And it's kind of what we talked about with the bus.

where it's not supposed to be sustainable and it is. And that's what I found amazing. Josh Allen was going to have to play perfect tonight. And even if he played perfect, there was no guarantee that they were going to win this game. And Josh Allen was far from perfect. And he wasn't even able to be Josh Allen in a lot of cases. In the first half,

he was averaging five air yards per attempt, which is, I believe, the lowest in a game this year. That climbed in the second half. but it obviously was not enough and didn't grow substantially. I think that kicking the fuel goal at the end of the first half, it was just a terrible, a terrible sign that this bills team wanted points. And they,

against Mahomes, who's just going to score whenever he wants, I just think you cannot carry that sort of attitude into this game. Something Roger Sherman has written about all the time. You just cannot, I know this sounds so cliche, but it's true with Patrick Mahomes. You cannot beat Patrick Mahomes with field goals.

Don't even try. And this was, an awful time for for Josh Allen's first ever red zone interception. And he just, he, he just did not look like the guy that we've seen these past couple weeks. He ended for right now, the conversation that he is, you know, Mahomesian. He had a nice little run there. But we saw today what happened. I mean, it's like two boxers, right?

You, you can look at them against other talent or whatever. You don't know until they get in the same ring. We saw them in the same field event. We saw the talent difference. Not a great opponent, uh, for Josh. to experience some regression against. And there were some things that he was doing overthrows, just taking really bad long sacks

when a play was taking a while to develop, not effectively using his legs, bad deep ball completion percentage. That felt like the old Josh Allen, the bad Josh Allen, the one that he's done such a remarkable job of leaving behind. And that's a little,

it's a little worrisome. It's a really small sample size. It's a little worrisome still. If you're a Bill's fan and you're watching this, I do want to give credit to the Chief's defense, which was really good and really smart. So they sent a ton of pressure, especially early. They were just pressuring, pressuring, pressuring. And Allen either because the lanes weren't there or because he just was a little bit reluctant to take off,

he was not using his leg super effectively to get out of it. Tony Romo talked about it a lot on the broadcast. but the Chiefs defensive backs were just blanketing those guys. I don't think they played a ton of press against Diggs who wasn't super active, especially I think he finished with like 77 yards or something, but most of it was late.

Most of it was what I would call garbage time, at least in this. And they just didn't have, I mean, that was, he was the guy that unlocked this whole offensive improvement from Buffalo this year. And that wasn't there. And that quick explosive offense that to me had looked in the later part of the season like it could be relied on in the playoffs because they had guys that could work against so many different kinds of defenses and could morph.

Well, what we left out of that or what I left out of that is that the chiefs came up with a really, really, really good game plan for that. So credit spags, job well done there. but they got a lot of pressure, but I think a lot of it came from the coverage being super, super, super good in this game. So I thought that was really impressive. And I thought they had a great, great game on defense and a great defensive game plan

in Kansas City, which does to me take a little bit of, you know, I'm sure just because people have prior, people have their priors with Josh Allen. It's easy to fall back on that stuff. I do think, I don't think he's, he's going back to pure. Yes. And that's the point I want to make because the one thing I don't want to come out of this game

is that this was like a rookie of the year situation and he just lost his mojo and then everything, everything is over. Right. And I think he's a much improved quarterback and that will carry over into next season. I just think the chiefs and Mahomes are better. I mean, these two teams played over in the season and we saw the same thing. Kansas City started this game on a three and out and then they scored on every possession until they had scored 38 points. That is not normal. And I think that you need to be

a super team in order to or have the greatest quarterback of all time, which they'll have in two weeks, in order to compete with that. He's 24 and 1 in his last 25 starts coming into this game. Again, that is something that just does not happen. Once I saw Rich Zimini had this, once I saw this stat, Josh Allen has overcome two double-digit deficits in his career, okay, both on the road. Okay, long pause, long ellipsis here. Both were against the Jets. Both were against the Jets, okay? And meanwhile, Mahomes is just like, oh, double digit,

oh yeah, no, Titans, Texans, 49ers in the Super Bowl, whatever. Like, that's what Mahomes does. And Josh Allen is just not there yet. There's no shame in that. I mean, I think that if anything, maybe we just got a little too comfortable saying these two teams were close. I just think that, again, I'm with you on the, I don't want to say boredom,

because I think that they obviously tried every week and all that stuff. I just think that they have a gear that very few teams can match. And when they're in that gear and they were in it tonight, I mean, Tyree Kill is a nightmare to tackle. Travis Kelsey is a nightmare to tackle and to cover. I mean, I don't want either of those guys would be a nightmare on their own. And the fact that they're on the field at the same time is just, there's just nothing defenses can do.

And especially if you're the bill's defense who is, you're good but not great. And so I there's just a talent disparity that's going to take another year. Brandon Bean has done a good as good a job as anybody with a three year rebuild. But you're going to need more and more and more pieces. And I kind of think that we, we tend to see everything as a finished product in football. And the bills now need to go out. And they know their, you know, listen, this time last year, we looked at the Packers and we looked at the Niners. And I said the Packers cannot do anything because the Niners are just too.

good. They're playing bully ball and the Packers have seen, have seen their, their destructor and nothing's ever going to happen. Well, the Niners have the season from hell. And obviously, Aaron Rodgers wins the MVP and they get back there. And obviously the Bucks have their, have their juggernaut, right? What I'm saying is things change so quickly from year to year that the bills just need to improve. We don't know what, you know, the chiefs could have the season from hell next year. Just stay relevant at the top of the AFC and things happen. But what I will say is right now, if Kansas City is healthy, no one in the AFC is within one or two years of beating this team. That feels right. You never know what's going to happen, but that feels right.

I'm had. There's just nothing else there. All right. Uh, let's get to. Sye. Sorry. Sorry. Let's get us some quick Super Bowl previews here, okay? Because this is from a narrative perspective, it's really easy. I mean, like, it is really freaking easy. It's the old historian thing, right? A great person is a, is a sentence, not a paragraph. This is a sentence. Here's the sentence. The greatest quarterback of all time against the most talented quarterback right now. Okay. That's it. Or maybe. be the greatest quarterback right now, right? Whatever you want to call Mahomes, that's it. That's it. That's the game. And that is why I'm so excited about this. When you have your first impression of

this game is what? So let's mention that the chiefs win. They look incredible. They did lose left tackle Eric Fisher to an Achilles injury. That didn't look great. It was ruled out pretty quickly. I guess Andy Reid said that he didn't. Andy Reid said it does not look good. And now again, we caution all the time against the perils of listening to what the coaches say immediately in the postgame about injuries because they don't really know they might not have talked to the trainers yet or whatever. But I will say that for for linemen Achilles quick rule out, it's not what you want. And that's already an offensive line that's super banged up playing with a lot of backups. We saw what the Bucks defense and their defensive front did today against a Packer's offensive line that's. been really, really good. I know they're without David Boktiar, and I feel like we did see

that catch up with them a little bit, but that front is playing incredibly well right now. So that's a little bit of a scary place to be if you're Kansas City. I think beyond that, if we're talking about talent, explosiveness, elite quarterback play, even when it's going against Tom Brady, it's hard to look at these two teams. and not look at the chiefs and just go, yeah, but that's something different. So Kansas City, I believe, will be the favorites in this. And I do feel like, even though it's not particularly intellectual, the best argument you could make for the bucks is just that calmness,

that presence, that knowing how to get it done that I really believe is real and Brady has and will give to all of those guys. And that's not to be discounted, but it's going to be hard to, take a long, hard look at the rosters and the offenses and just go, okay, well, can the chiefs get to 30 points? Yeah, I think they can. Can the bucks? Well, maybe it's a little bit less. If it goes, if the score starts to climb up and up and up, who do you trust more? It's just always going to be Kansas City for me and that, but I would watch out for the degree to which the bucks defensive front is going to be able to get pressure against Kansas City's offensive line.

Well, here's what I know is that the Packers didn't capitalize on Tom Brady's mistakes today and that the Chiefs will capitalize on his mistakes. And so Brady has to play perfect game. And so every single week I get on this podcast and I say, okay, Patrick Mahomes is the difference between winning and losing in almost every game that they play. And there are so many games where they're, again, doing things they should be doing. They're down six and all of a sudden, oh, Patrick Mahomes, here we go. And he's got the knockout punch.

and that's all that matters. And I wonder again if his kryptonite might be the greatest quarterback ball time, who's done those things all the time. We have seen Tom Brady make miracles look normal, just as we've seen Patrick Mahomes do it over the past two years. And so I wonder just kind of spiritually if there's something there and that Tom Brady is going to be able to just make those sort of plays that normally other quarterbacks can't because they've gotten that knockout punch.

Obviously, I don't think Tom Brady's going to be intimidated at Patrick Mahomes. I do think that there are players in this league who are, and there's defenders who are. And I wonder if having Tom Brady just adds a little bit of energy to the Bucks because they know they have a Patrick Mahomes style quarterback just as far as having a grade of the game, who's been there in one six Super Bowls. That's just from a big picture standpoint. That's a general feeling I have. From a talent standpoint, I think that there's a case we made that the Bucks could hang with the chief's offense. I think that they have a leap point. We saw that today.

Again, the Eric Fisher injury might be huge when you have Shaq Barrett and Vita Vea and JPP. Devin White obviously can work with that speed over the middle. And then the secondary, I think, is okay. We'll see what happens with both safeties in Tampa Bay, both of whom were banged up today. I think that's a huge thing. I do think the Chiefs win this game, first of all, just big picture. But I can see pathways for the books. I just, I just worry right now that the chiefs are just, and again, I said this about the Packers last week.

So, so what do I know? But I just worry right now that the chiefs are just so much better than everybody else that any of those pathways will be closed up fairly quickly. When Tom Brady beat Mahomes twice when he was with the Patriots, they did it in this very old school, super traditional way. They dominated time of possession. They ran the ball. They kept the ball out of Mahomes's hands and they converted trips into the red zone. that will in some ways be like the formula for Tampa Bay, except that they're not going to run the ball to the same extent

and rely on that. I think the way that they would have to control time of possession is with their defense playing really well. Get a couple takeaways. Keep them off the field as much as possible. We talked about this on the last midweek pod that we did. By the way, shout out Jim for shouting out JPP because I was watching him so much more carefully.

He texted me during the game. I had been. And all the way back, JPP, all the way back. All the way back. All the way back. Nobody was talking about him. He really is. I mean, I think that this is the kind of thing where I think because Brady came there and we

said, okay, changed everything. I think that we've overlooked Jason Light, the GM. I think we've overlooked Brouserians building the blocks last year. Obviously, the quarterback play is by far the most important thing. But I do think when you. you look at this defense, there are pieces there. Devin White was an awesome draft big. JPP was a great acquisition.

Shaq Barrett, who obviously had to be franchise tagged this year, had his breakout year last year. He's been effective now for a number of years in Tampa. He was not highly thought of, you know, he was not as thought of as some superstar when he came to Tampa a couple years ago. And so I think that just from a team building standpoint, I've been really impressed. And again, that's why you go to Tampa is because they had all the pieces.

I think that, you know, Peter Schrager talked about this a couple of weeks. ago, a couple hours ago, rather, on the morning show, where you said that they viewed it like Field of Dreams. If you build it, Tom Brady will come. And that was the, that was the, that was the pitch to Tom Brady's. We've built this great thing and you can come be the last piece. And I think that's what Tom Brady wanted to hear is you get to be the last piece and you can tie this all together rather than staying in New England and saying, you're going to be the dominant piece that's going to solve all of our problems. That's it. I mean, like, the idea that, I think it's a little bit outdated. You know, I remember Brett Veach, the,

Chiefs GM said this to me one time. He said, you know, everyone talks about being all in or whatever, or the Chiefs all in or the Rams all in or the Eagles all in, whatever. And there is no such thing for top teams is all in anymore because the top teams are all in every single year. And you have to find a way to maximize your talent every single year. So when I look at New England and I think about just the fact that they were going to make him the problem solver, that's not really what great teams do anymore. They create, they solve the problems around them.

And then they let the quarterback just solve some of the problem. problems. Okay. And that's what's great about Tampa Bay for Tom Brady has the weapons. He has the defense. He gets bailed out when he makes those three interceptions. So I just think from a team building perspective, this was a match made in heaven. And I've been impressed with the whole. Brady, of course, put them over the top. But if you look at their 2019 draft, I believe that was the one white, Murphy bunting. They go heavy, heavy, heavy on players who can cover. Right. Heavy on defense. But they still, I think that was the draft where they got Scotty Miller in the sixth round or whatever. it was. And that's the type of thing that sets a team up, one, to not be paying a ton of veterans

on second, third contracts too much money to be able to go out and get Tom Brady. But when you do, to have him be that final piece, because your cupboard is stocked. And to your other point, just about his role in New England being to mask flaws, it was, there was part of this that it was hard to watch without thinking of the fact that he was, he was. wanted to not leave at one point. There was a point at which he really felt like it would have been nice to stay and play out his career and through a combination of just not necessarily trusting, which is fair given what happens to quarterbacks, that he could keep it going well into his 40s, our reluctance to pay market rate or close to market rate for a quarterback and, you know,

some of the palace intrigue stuff that's gone on for, for however long, that didn't happen. And that's forgivable. That's understandable. That's everybody's human and stuff like this happens all the time. I mean, we've talked about it a bunch what's happened to the great quarterbacks who have finished their careers, not with the teams that they did most of their championship winning and spent most of their careers with. But there was a moment, you know, two-ish, not quite two years ago, when Tom Brady really would have liked to stick around. And so we will save the Bill versus Tom for when we have the final scoreboard. But that struck me watching this too because he is really getting what he wanted out of this.

And I don't mean that in a, well, aren't you happy way. I mean that in a he bet on himself and he clearly chose right. Small correction. We will not be waiting for the final scoreboard. We will be doing it every weekend. We'll be doing that constantly. we'll be doing it as soon as tomorrow on slow news day. I will drop a Sean Murphy Bunting nugget.

First player with interception in each of his first three career playoff games since Ed Reed. How about that? Not too shabby. Pretty good. Pretty good company. He's not Ed Reed. He's not nearly as good. I'm just saying.

The company's pretty good. It's a ball hawk. Good for him. Sean Murphy Bunting. Good for him. When you hear that name, what is it to you? To me, it's a guy in a boy. and English soccer player.

Okay. English soccer player. Yeah. Listener questions. Guy asks, is the NFL about to have an NBA like offseason with all the quarterback movement? Great question. So obviously this is spurn from the, spurred from the, the Rogers talk tonight.

There's a lot. Obviously, Matt Stafford is available via trade this spring. Who knows about somebody like Ben Robertsburg where he's going to hang it up? He hasn't said one way or another. with new GMs in a place like Atlanta, maybe Matt Ryan. I don't think this year for Matt Ryan, but I do think maybe down the road. There's just going to be a lot of, you know, rivers are tiring. The Colts need somebody.

Wentz, I guess is going to stay in Philadelphia because they want to fix him, but you never know what this stuff. When you think about the quarterback movement this offseason, where do you start? It's going to be busy. And I don't know if this is really answering the question of the listener intended or how you intend. but just every. I'm not sure with the, I'm not sure with the NBA like. I guess that just means superstars changing teams, right?

All sorts of crazy movement. It'll be a lot just because of the sheer number of guys that are available. I mean, the, look, I don't want to lump Mitch Trubisky with Stafford and Rogers, who really all three of them should be in their own little buckets. But that division alone, right? We have three starting quarterbacks who I think Rogers is staying put, but two of them that are probably going to go elsewhere and a third who has at least created a headline cycle about it. There are a lot of potential names to draw from the hat.

I just would urge everyone to keep in mind. I know this is so like I'm nagging everyone, but just like the money is going to be a factor because we've been conditioned for a really long time to say that you can massage the cap and like the saints can run fire festival out of their basement and we can. can all figure it out, but this may be the year when not everyone can figure it out. So I do think that the cap strapped teams are going to find themselves in a tricky situation where they might want to make it work with a guy, but they actually just can't. And that's not the world that we've lived in, but it might be the one that we're living in this year. I think this week I'm

going to put on a poll where the Saints running Enron or the Fire Festival with their cap for the past 10 years, where they're just like, oh, no, we're a 90 million dollars over. We're going to sign Jarvis Bird. It's fine. We'll figure it out. 90 million dollars. We say this from a place of love. They're not actually doing anything untoward.

It is just amazing that they're able to just afford anybody. And obviously, they came up with the idea. They got capped out this year. They came up with the idea to get Jeddivian Clowny by essentially doing a sign and trade. That was nixed by the league. I'm not sure why it was next. I think it's a creative idea. But it also shows you the fact that the saints are constantly,

thinking about how to massage the cap and that's why I think they're just going to afford, be able to afford a 37 million dollar Aaron Rogers somehow and just be $150 million over the cap. I will, I don't know what I will do if that happens. I mean, I would be really happy because it would be cool. But I have spent so much of this year just like recoiling when people talk about massaging the cap because again, it is usually true, but you can massage $30 million, not 90. and that's what some of these teams are theoretically maybe going to be asked to do. But if they find a way to pull that off, like, I don't know, I'll eat my sock or something. That's gross.

I won't do that. But whatever. Free idea for the Saints. Free idea for the Saints. Aaron Rogers, Matthew Stafford, quarterback competition. Just stack $67 million of contracts together and just see what happens. I was thinking about that when I was thinking about the NFC North thing. As far as it can go.

What about at? Just ride this puppy. Take Trubisky too. Get them all in there. Bring Drew Brzebacher. They brought this burger. Bring them all. Bring them all. Bring them all to New Orleans.

We'll have a great time. All right. Second question from Greg. I love this one. If you could have the fancy new NFL cameras following around. My dream. What would you want it to be recording? So the four,

I guess they're 4K. Is that what they're called? It's just like 80K? A million K. Yeah. I don't know what the K and that refers to. And there's a lot and a lot of Ks. And,

And they record obviously post touchdown walks or whatever it is and it looks great. I don't know. I don't think I do anything cool enough to be recorded doing that stuff. I really want a GoPro because I like to ski and a GoPro is a cool thing to have when you ski. But they're just like stupid expensive. And I also feel like I would feel like a douche wearing one. So I would like them to film me skiing, I think is the answer to that. Or I also, this is making a little bit different.

I would just want them to be aware of, this is just my own personal vanity speaking. One thing I've realized about myself over the course of my life is that like how I end up looking in pictures is just a direct product of how recently I've washed my hair. So I would just like them to pay attention to like when do, when is my hair nice and clean? Because then we'll be good. Okay. Yeah, I don't do anything cool. I was thinking about like my golf game. I'm terrible at golf.

I think that would not look good in any in any frequency. You kind of want them to shadow you on the links. Well, depends. I will say, I feel like there are many better uses than following me around. So I would let those cameramen go do something else. Go film like another planet Earth or something. Or like honestly. With those cameras.

You don't need to be following me around. There are so many dogs in my neighborhood. I would just send them out and be like, go follow the dogs. All right. We will get you out of here on this nugget from Jay King. He's a Celtic supporter. Tom Brady has won the NFC championship as many times as Aaron Rogers. And when you think about it that way, it's pretty mind-blowing.

It's tough. It is tough. Wow. All right. This has been the Rerner NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. Thanks for watching live. And thanks for listening on the podcast network. Thanks, guys.