The Ringer NFL Show - NFL Combine Reactions, the Antonio Brown Sweepstakes, and Witten’s Return | The Ringer NFL Show (Ep. 399)

Episode Date: March 1, 2019

The top teams that could land Antonio Brown, Dallas’s offseason plan, and predicting the impending QB free-agency class (0:35). Plus, Danny Kelly stops by to talk about Kyler Murray and what has stood out to him at the 2019 NFL combine (25:25). Hosts: Robert Mays and Kevin Clark Guests: Danny Kelly Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Thanks for your help. To The Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Robert Mays, joined as always by Kevin Kopp. How are you doing, buddy? How are you enjoying Indianapolis show with me? About as much as I do every year. It's pretty standard at this point. I think it's a familiar fare, is how I would describe it.

This is my 11th combo. What? Yes. I started coming in college. Because I was covering Missou, and there were players here. It wasn't that far to drive. How far is it from? Every year.

Columbia, like six hours? No, less than that. Less than that. This is like seven or something for me. Yeah, I've been, I'm coming here for a long time. Huh. So the beats of it are changed in your opinion, because I have a theory. I think it's less ridiculous than it used to do.

Yeah, so I think that it's not the booze cruise at once was. 100% with you. I think that just it's the changing nature of NFL teams a little bit, probably the changing nature of media a little bit. And that I remember someone told me that like, you're probably there for. this, but like, 08 and 09, for any league event was sort of the peak of decadence because it was the last, like the last league events before Twitter and Instagram. And it was like, someone told me in an owner's meeting in 09, there was an owner who poured champagne into a

coach's mouth at the pool and everybody saw it and was like, that's strange. And it's like, that could just never happen now. No, it would never happen now. And so, and by the way, the owner and the coach did not work together. Nor had they. ever. Okay. So, so it's just a little bit different. You know, I saw a beat writer last night in the lobby of one of the hotels and he was like, and let's, let's call this a top five NFL franchise. And the beat writer was like, the team I cover just doesn't go out. Like they're upstairs, like, figuring out how to destroy everybody and, you know, shave three million dollars off the salary cap. There are a lot of people you will not see this one. Yeah. I mean, some of these teams, some teams do treat this like a wedding.

like just just you know let's just crack let's get going crack open the open bar but i would say there's more teams that are like this is more of a work trip than it used to be i'm with you on that i feel like the kind of sceny spots that you would used to go to are much that they're not less full than they used to be but the but it's more media members it's more media members now the clientele is much different i think you see far fewer high profile people sidling up to the bar than you would have 10 years ago. Yeah, you got to seat those guys out. You got to seat those guys out.

I heard a story last night that there are multiple teams who are, who've basically told their scouts that they have to be the first people into the measurement room. And that has created a strange sort of competition in which now people are getting there, scouts getting there at 3.30 in the morning, three in the morning just to be number one. The combine has just now in that realm just turn into Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, where it's just like, if you're not first in, everybody's fired. And so, yeah, it's strange scene. The one element, somebody was talking about this yesterday.

I can't remember it was maybe it's Brett Veach or Brandon Bean. I can't remember. They were just discussing. No disrespect to anybody here, but there's a big difference between those two guys as far as their success in this league. Correct. But it was both guys that, you know, listen to the combat, or the podium, they're not saying much.

they were talking about how there's the train station where the scouts like meeting guys at the train station and they have small conversations with them there which is just the whole hidden part of the combine culture that we really talk about ever but it's actually a really big deal. So there are all these little tiny pockets that we don't see all the time that are still so bizarre.

When I was talking to the scout who was telling about the competition I was like what is the point of watching measurements? And they said that NFL teams believe that just you can carry weight differently and that you have to be able to see body composition, which I don't know. That's probably fair. At this point, though, why aren't you caring about it to that degree?

You might as well. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying they care. I just think that, okay, I have to tell you something. We're looking at it as how does this person carry 250 versus how do they carry 245 versus, you know, whatever. Meanwhile, teams are still running the wheel on first down. Yes.

Like, let's not act like they've solved the market on every. everything else and now they're worried about being, you know, X, Y, and Z, there's still huge holes in NFL philosophy. So the idea that they would come here and, you know, meet the guy at the train station, while interesting, why don't you work on your play calling decisions? Why don't you work on your efficiency? Why don't you work on your free agency? Why don't you work on managing your cap? Yeah. If the smart teams are the ones doing this attention to detail stuff that I'm more if I took over an NFL team and we were just a complete disaster on like every front and and you know, and someone was like, we got to see, we got to be first in the NFL.

first row of the measurements. Everybody's fired. Just everybody. We were all fired. All right. So we're going to talk about some other stuff that we feel like have been taken away from this week, stuff we think matters. So just a few things that we want to get to here.

What's the first thing outside of the not as much of a Bruce Cruz situation that has jumped out to you? That's all I want to talk about. That's it. You're going to talk about the drinking culture. We're going to talk a little bit. I think that the measurement's really interesting to me. Obviously, Kyler was checked all the boxes.

We're going to get to that with Danny Kelly later. at Oliver's measurement, same deal, kind of got him where I needed to be. I think there's a couple of things. Number one is Antonio Brown, because I think now Antonio Brown has become incredibly underrated. In talking to everybody here, it's almost like, I don't know who wants them. And I heard a couple of people say maybe it's kind of one of those Washington deals where they just like, sure, we'll take the, we'll take the famous guy, see what happens. But a certain point, They have to stop spending money. Washington.

Yes. Okay. That was not, that was less of an informed sort of rumor than a nobody else wants it. Sure. And one of the dumb teams is going to do it. Like the Jets are going to trade like that. But it's unbelievable to me that he's become, I mean, there are, there are a lot of people who are locker room distractions, okay?

And they're in the NFL and they're under contract. Nobody talks about them. Not many of them are going to the Hall of Fame. Not many of them make your quarterback. significantly better. And I just think the conversation among NFL teams here, the ones I've talked to, the people who are around the sport, it's, I throw out teams that I think make a lot of sense. And everyone's like, well, they wouldn't want Antonio Brown. Well, why not? He's really good. And you can solve this kind of stuff. I mean, I don't know. It just, it just seems very strange to me.

I know that, you know, some teams have cat problems or whatever, but I want to just go back to something, which is that the Rams and the Eagles spent the last two years being very aggressive, stacking stars, and winning with aggressiveness, with basically really informed and well-researched risk. And there are about 28 teams left in the NFL who watched those aggressive teams and decided they want to do the exact opposite and actually get more conservative. And it's just very strange to me. And I don't know why Antonio, I don't know why there's not more of a, I think At some point, the Antonio Brown swoop stakes ends when some smart team says, this is getting ridiculous. We're going to offer a good deal.

The team that I could see it happening with and that doesn't make sense from a financial perspective and is one of those teams that you're talking about. If they can free up the money, the Eagles would absolutely do it. What about, dude? What about Carolina? How does that change Cam Newton's game? I mean, that would be incredible. They have a need. And they also, Ron Rivera is, I think, a top five locker room coach.

It's that type of team that could really absorb it, right? Roder Vair, I think, could do it. Philadelphia, I think, could do it. Carolina is one of my sort of, so let's assume, and this is something I talked about in the pod with Mao last week, okay, the Browns and the chiefs are the two football dork destinations. Oh, I think the Colts for me, still. I would love for him to go to the Colts. And that's one of those teams that talking to people this week, it's like, oh, they wouldn't do it.

Yeah, right. And it's like, oh, God damn, like the 35th pick? You give them that you give. I kind of like Simmons. I pick swap idea is if you're the Jets, do you swap three for 20 as the centerpiece to your package? His idea was the 49ers do that. I think that's the way you get it because the Jets don't have the draft capital otherwise because they don't trade up for Sam Donald. Yes.

That's what I'm saying. The Colts have that pick. Yeah. So I mean, if you called right now and you said we will give you 30, it's a 36th pick, right? We will give you the 36th pick for Antonio Brown. Would you do it? If you were the Steelers, would you do that? No, if I was at Steelers, I'd just run it back.

That's what we've been saying the whole time, but they seem comming to not doing that. If you're going to trade him, then you just get the best pick you can get. And if it's, if it is 36 and you can call and get that, you're the Colts, how do you not do it? I have a question. No matter what you think about it. I have a question about this. If Antonio Brown is such the cancer you think he is, why not trade him to the Browns? Sure. If you think that he's going to sink, if you think he's such a toxic locker room person that he will go in there and

sink the franchise, what better team to trade them to than the team that looks like it's on the rise in your own division? What would you give the Steelers if you're the Browns? In a world where the Steelers would be willing to trade with you, what would you give for Antonio Browns if you were with the Browns? Your first round pick this year and what else? And a three next year. And you would do that 100 times out of 100 if the Steelers have been willing to deal with you. If you're the Browns, you would do that. What's the Browns pick? It's a mid-level pick. I would do that. I would do that in heartbeat. I also think that you look at someone like John Dorsey's mid-round success and he realized that he doesn't necessarily i mean he can he can get impact players

in the second round the fourth round but it's not even just that i don't like we have this you know while you're giving up your first round pick if you're the browns and you trade for antonio brown and he gives you two years of production even close to what he's giving you now that is more than you're going to get from your first round pick you probably drafted in the middle of the first round yeah it's more return and i know he's not on a rookie contract whatever else but his contract is not favorable with Antonio Brown. There's no guarantee money on it. No. So the Jason Witten thing, obviously, a lot of scuttle, but I just

think it's such a shock to everybody. It was amazing. The Cowboys paid Jason Wooden $3.5 million in order to get him away from ESPN and to not have that end up horribly. I just think the whole thing is very, very,

very strange. Because Jason Witten is not, is probably not worth that much. Is a football player in the NFL? Yes. No. He is not worth that much. So what do we do?

He's a mentor to the tight ends who I don't think are very good? Well, didn't Schafter report yesterday that he wants to be a coach and that Cowboys think he can be? And this is his bridge to coaching. The whole thing, there is nothing better in the world, in the world of professional football of being Jerry Jones's guy. It's the best thing to be. He except that Tony Romo is his guy and then he back in... You think of Tony Romo told Jerry, I want to be the head coach right now.

Oh, no. But I'm saying this. I'm saying that he got well he pipped by by Dak Prescott. Well, yes, I understand that. But I still feel like if you're not,

Jason Witten's not the quarterback. You could easily bring him back. Tony Romo, you can't afford to just have him on the roster. That was my thing about like the Cardinals, right? If Tony Romo called the Cardinals and it was like, I want to be the Cardinals coach, they absolutely hire him over Cliff Kingsbury.

Done and done. Unlike January 3rd. Done. But why would you want to be the Cardinals coach if you were Tony Robo? Of course not. Do you know how much money he's going to make eventually? in broadcasting?

There is absolutely no reason. He would make, I guarantee you he makes twice as much as the CBS broadcaster that he would make as the Cardinalside coach. I actually don't know

if that's true. I think one day he will, but I don't know if that's true at the moment. I bet it's as much. I actually don't know. I don't know Cliffs, but I mean,

he doesn't make, so the top coaches in the NFL make around $10 million this year. I don't know I think he makes that. No, I guarantee you he doesn't. So yeah,

not twice as much, but as much. It's comparable enough where you wouldn't have to deal with the bullshit of being an NFL head coach no matter which franchise it was for. I think football, I think he likes football, though.

I think he's going to be broadcast for life. I'm just saying. I do as well. I'm just saying he'd be a good coach. The win thing was crazy. I couldn't believe it when it happened. It makes no sense. And with Dallas, so I want to talk about it on a more practical level,

because one of the things that I had heard all week from several different people, and I got my wires crossed a little bit yesterday, but it feels like the cowboys are willing to spend a lot of money. And I heard that DAC is looking for a monster. monster, monster deal, like a deal that would shop even us. Starting quarterback with a pulse. Even something that would surprise me even in that realm. We heard this about Russell Wilson three years ago and then he settled for a fairly mundane contract.

But Dak Prescott is not Russell Wilson. I think Dak Prescott is fine. But the idea that Dak Prescott can become one of like the three highest paid quarterbacks in football was just. I got to tell you, every time I hear about paradigm changing contracts, they don't happen. Remember this time last year we were talking about Aaron Rogers getting like, you know, an NBA style bird rights deal. I'm not even talking about paradigm shifting.

I'm talking about DAC landing in a tier that I do not put him in. That's what I'm saying. If I were Dallas, and I've said this a few times, I would give him the Ryan Tannahill, Andy Dalton, $20 million a year trap door contract. That's what I would do because I don't think

he's going to get that much more elsewhere because I don't know what the market is for starting quarterbacks right now. We live in a world where Teddy Bridgewater doesn't have a team. Two years ago, three years ago, Teddy Bridgewater easily would have gotten that Mike Lennon contract in a heartbeat to be the starting quarterback somewhere. But where is that right now? So if you're DAC and you're hitting free agency next season and all of these teams have plans in place, it's not really there. I just don't think that I just think plans change so quickly that you have no. I agree with you. I agree with you. But

every team that seems like it's settled on quarterback, I mean, think about Washington. Last year, they had a four-year deal with Alex Smith for, what, $70 million guaranteed. That's a very unique. No, no, I understand that. But, I mean, I don't think that people would have assumed that last year, you know, after they trade for Case Canem, that Denver would be back in the quarterback market a year later. I don't think necessarily that... I thought they might be, actually.

That one was... Because that type of deal, I think that's where you go. But the problem is Case Camden is better than Joe Flacco, so it doesn't make any sense. But so let's just go through the list very quickly. So if we... Let's talk about Foles in a second. But if we assume Foles does Landon Jacksonville, where are there other quarterback spots

that aren't necessarily filled long term? Denver still is one of them. Washington. Washington is one of them. Miami is one of them. I think you could probably put Cincinnati on that list. I think you would probably put Tampa Bay on that list. Tampa Bay on that list, maybe Tennessee.

So yeah, that's true. Next off season, maybe it's a little bit different. If you want to know where my brain is, I just Googled a list of NFL teams. I'm back. Oh, it's late February, baby. I guess it says March 1st, right? Yeah, we're back.

It's early March. That's what we are right now. And then you start to think about the teams that are sort of getting to the end of their cycle. I mean, how long is Drew Brees going to keep going? How long is, is Philip Rivers, Brady. Rivers. You know what? I think you're right.

I feel like next year we could be back in a place where maybe there's six or eight teams that need a guy. And maybe if you're a DAC, that's the year you want to hit free agency. Maybe if Dallas tries to come to you with that, we'll give you, you know, a, five-year $113 million deal. That's really a two-year, $47 million deal. Maybe you just say fuck off. I'm going to throw this out there.

I mean, and I'm not talking about this for that DAC destination, but if they keep building where they are, what happens to Tennessee if Marriota doesn't perform next year? I think they move on. Yeah, exactly. I think they absolutely move on. You just start to think about it.

The thing with him, though, is he's just not been put in a position to succeed. I mean, LeFleur gets hired away. You're learning another. new offense next year. He has been given no shots to be the best version of himself.

I agree. I'm just saying in general, you know, that that's one team to keep an eye on. And I think Tampa's another good one because you have a new head coach there now.

I assume if they don't perform very well this year, the GM might be gone. So you're looking at some more change there. Yeah, it could be the seats at the table, there could be money more of them next year than there are right now.

I will give that to you. I have some more points, but what's your number one thing that's jumped out to you? week. I think it's probably just the idea that free agency is going to be really boring because a lot of the bigger names we already either probably know where they're going or they're not even going to hit them. Brandon Graham is the latest. Brandon Graham, by the way, would not be an exciting free agent, but that shows you how unexciting for agencies. Well, because all the top four past rushers

are going to get franchised or they're going to get. Well, Justin Houston, being on a trade market is a nice little Easter egg for us all. What do we think about Justin Houston right now? I think, that if I were Kansas City, I'd be very weary about starting to dismantle the strength of your weird bad defense. Sure. But if you're another team, I mean, this is a guy who's what, 30, 31 years old? He is 30, just turned 30. Just turned 30 has a very checkered injury history, has not been able to stay on the field. It was fine last season, but was definitely the third most valuable player on that defensive front. Nine sacks and 12 games. He was fun. He was, but I think there were a lot, there was a lot of attention being paid to the other two players on that team.

Chris Johnson, D. Ford. Yes. So that, that's where I'm at. I feel like there's a reason that the chiefs are likely going to franchise D. Ford and that Justin Houston's on the trade block. Yeah. I, I agree. And obviously, he makes big money. He's in the fifth year of a six year deal.

He had a record. He had a market setting contract when he signed it. He did. So if I'm a, I don't know what his trade market is. I don't know if any team is, I mean, he's not, he's worth a lot. of money. He is, I'm sorry, he owed a lot of money. And I just don't know, he's not an elite guy. So I don't know what you're going to get for him. I don't know what you're going to get for him either. I would not trade for him at the price he's at right now. So his cap hit at this very

moment, his base salary is $15.25 million. So that's what you'd be, obviously the chiefs are on the hook for the signing bonus. So you pay him 15 this year, 17 next year with very little of it guaranteed. So I guess that's somewhat palatable. I can understand that. If you could get that for a second round pick, would you do it? Like, if you were the Browns or the Chiefs? We're just really assigned in trades to the Browns and the Colts and the Chiefs. But I mean, like, those are the teams that probably would be aggressive in this scenario. I probably wouldn't. I mean, that's a John, if it's the Browns, it's a John Dorsey thing. How much is John Dorsey love Justin? Even though Scott Peolle drafted him, obviously John Dorsey was there.

I don't know. I mean, that's the Justin Houston trade market is very interesting. I don't know if I don't know if I would part of the second for Justin Houston on that contract. Should we talk about Foles very briefly? Yeah. This is shocking to me in the sense that when we were having this discussion about quarterback musical chairs in the fall, my thought had always been the Jags are going to draft a quarterback. And it still seems to me like the more prudent direction here is for them to move up for a guy like Haskins or Murray, rather than giving Nick Foles $20 million a year

when you're already over the cap. I just don't understand. So what if the answer is both? And what I mean by this is that Dave Gettelman came out and said this, and I think this has the opportunity to be a very dumb trend around the league. But Dave Getteman came out and said that what worked was the Kansas City model. It's a really stupid way to think about how you build your team. Which is having a veteran guy on a legitimate contract and then the guy learning behind him.

Now, I don't think that them bringing in Foles precludes them from taking a quarterback in the first two rounds. I don't know if they bring in Foles obviously a number like 20. They're not going to trade up into the top five. But they could still draft a significant future starter quarterback type guy. Now, I think there's a couple of things we need to sort of peel back on with the Kansas City model. First of all, not everybody's going to be Patrick Mahomes. Second of all, the infrastructure in Kansas City was so remarkable. They basically had Nagy and Reed working with Smith, and they assigned Mike Kafka to Patrick Mahomes.

And so you had not only Mahomes working with Alex Smith every day, working with Reed and Nagy in meetings, but also anytime he needed something explained to him, he basically had the quarterback's coach at his disposal. The infrastructure in other places is not going to be like that. There aren't three really smart or four, because I would include Eric B. Enemy in that. there are not four really smart innovators in 31 of the other teams in this league. So if you're going to try the Kansas City model, you better have Kansas City coaches and you better have talent like Patrick Mahomes and you better have a leader like Alex Smith. I just think that was a unicorn.

If you want to replicate it, good luck. It does not make sense to me to allocate your resources in that way. If you're going to sign Nick Full with the idea of drafting a quarterback in the first two rounds, you are a team that is built to win at this very moment. That's why you're signing Nick Foles using a high-level draft pick on a quarterback while also burning 20 million bucks on your starter. I have no idea why teams think that's a good idea. It's the same thing the Cardinals did last year. Paying San Brad for what they did while drafting Josh Rosen.

It's like, just put him in. Just put him in. Mahomes is such a different case and that team was on such a different part of where they wanted to go in their schedule. The Jacksonville Jaguars are there, but why would you? What would you also draft the guy? I just don't understand that at all. I don't know teams' plans specifically, but there are a lot of teams don't know what they're doing.

No, there are a lot of teams that do not know they're doing. I don't know if anybody's looked into the last. The NFL is celebrating 100 years. And one of the constants, it's like my field of dream speech, the only constant is that there's a lot of teams that have no idea what they're doing. My favorite part about this is going to be what happens with the offensive line market. The players and the past rushing market are good enough that even,

with those top four guys off, giving Dante Fowler a big deal or Trey Flowers or Ziggi Anza, there are players I like in that group more than others, but I'm still okay with a guy like Trey Flowers is getting paid. But it's going to be amazing when a guy like Daryl Williams is off the board

and then Roger Saffold and a team's like, well, we're the Donovan Smith winners. Five years, 60 million. Let's go. That's going to be my favorite part of free agency two weeks from now. I can't wait to see you're excited about that. It's going to be great. Dave Gettleman's going to be the to do it yet again. Anything else? That's all I got, man. It's another fun week in indie.

Oh yeah. Oh, by the way, one thing I wanted to, I have it in my notes here. A lot of Carson Wentz chatter. He's going to be the new sort of what they do with him is a fascination with a lot of teams because he's the type of guy who's in a vacuum ready to get paid, but there's so many questions about that. What do they do? Do they just run it back and try to sign him next year? I don't know. I just, You know, you start to look at those. We, we're looking at, and this is true of DAC too, but just the Cowboys are just completely in a separate category than any other NFL team.

But we know so much more about rookie contracts and their value now than we did five years ago, three years ago, four years ago. And the teams who are really smart, like the Rams, like the Eagles, are going to start negotiating with those guys knowing how much it's going to cost them in a very real way. And so you start to think about that. that. That's really fascinating. I think the chatter around

when one of these teams decides to just say, nope, that's really started to build for me. I've heard it started to hear a lot more of that. You've been more interested in that. I've heard stories about teams that thought they were going to do that and then it's a hard to do.

It's very hard to do. But that's, trust me, I'm with you on that. I think that the idea of the Rams not doing it or a team like that, two elements, I think, play into not being on the pull a trigger on that type of decision. One, certainty is so valuable. And two, the personal relationships that go

into this stuff. Doug Peterson works with Carson Wentz every single day. That is a relationship that has been built over time. And just cutting the cord on that is not easy for people to do. Ready for Danny? Yeah. And now we are thrilled to welcome DK. Thrill is the draft guru. Thrill is an understatement. I am so excited. Danny Kelly is here with us. Danny, it's great to be here with you. What's going on, guys? How are you doing? Not too much. I am very excited to talk draft with you. One of my favorite parts of Combine Week this year has been watching you just fully engaged in the draft world. Immersed. I have not seen Danny Kelly without tape in front of him all week. He's crushing tape, but the other parts of it are just as fun to me. There was a joke yesterday while we were at

dinner about how this bunny rabbit was just an absolute unit. And so I think it was Josh Hernsmeier tweeted, It's the D.K. Metcalf of bunnies. And I showed Danny the joke and he thought it was really funny. Which is the most draft Twitter joke of all time. Yeah. I mean, that guy is a unicorn. There's a couple like crazy huge receivers this year. It's like the huge receiver season.

Well, easy. We're going to get to what's happened this week, guys that have kind of fallen for you, people that. Danny can't help but have draft takes. He cannot have himself. We're trying to ease into this. And he's just like, I got to get these takes out. conversation and Danny's just all about

what's his name? Who's that the tall guy with the wingspan? Akeem Butler. Akeem Butler, that's right. I still don't know who these guys are yet, slowly but surely. Okay, Danny, what we're going to do right now is we're just going to chat with you about

kind of how things have shifted for you over the course of the week, stuff that stood out, stuff that you think has mattered, has not mattered. So what would you say is your number one takeaway from a prospect perspective that's happened over the past three days? I mean, people like fun of the idea that Kyler Murray's weight matters because really, the tape matters and you can kind of do things with your body like get weighed on at the last minute but i do think it is a huge deal that kailer murray weighed in at 207 i mean people were

really worried about his you know overall frame being too small being big enough to like take hits in the NFL people were worried about his hand size and he kind of just i think you know not squashed those like worries necessarily but he definitely kind of like made it like a way less big of a deal um you know he weighed in heavier than russell wilson did at the combine his hand Hands are bigger than, you know, a handful of the other quarterbacks in this class. Like, Drew Locke's, he's bigger than Drew Locke's hands. I think he was, his hands are even bigger than Baker Mayfields were last year. So, like, those things, you can kind of, you check those boxes.

You don't have to worry about them quite as much going forward. You can kind of just look at him like a more normal prospect than, you know, he's still going to be really short. But he's still the second shortest player in the last 20 years at the combat. So that matters. But, I mean, I think that he did check some boxes. I think that we've swung the other way because of the. success of Baker Mayfield. I think because of the success and large part of Aaron Donald, where we've swung the other way where the new thing is like measurements don't matter at all.

That's like the Twitter sentiment. And that's not true. It's not true at all. But so I totally agree with Danny in the sense that Kyler ticked the box as I wanted to see. I don't think height is you don't need to be six four, six five. You don't need the weird unwieldy John Elway quote about seeing being able to see from shotgun. I wasn't, I don't, I read that quote four times. I still doesn't make sense. It's an MCSher thought about quarterback. Yeah. And so I do think that measurements do matter, but I am feeling better about Kyloor Murray than I did.

I mean, some of these rumors about his height were wrong and ridiculous. Well, that's the thing about this, though, right? Is that does height matter that much? No. But our team's going to feel much better about a guy that's 510 and 1 8th and a guy that's 5 foot 9 flat. Absolutely. Right, absolutely. And the weight, I'll ask you this, Danny, because I think a lot of people have talked

about how you can put weight on for the combine, but is that you're playing weight? Right. So is Kyler Murray going to play at 200 pounds, 205 pounds, or when the season starts, is he going to be 191? Yeah. And if that's the case, I can understand why people would have concerns about that. Yeah. Because with Lamar Jackson last year, there was that same thought of not, is he too short, but

is he too thin? And we saw Lamar Jackson this year get dinged up a little bit while taking a pounding because he's a little bit thin. And I think at a certain point, measurements do still matter. a little bit even if it's not as overstated as it used to. No, absolutely. And I think, I mean, we won't have that answer until, I guess, the season and kind of figure out how he played.

He's not going to be testing this week. We're not going to really know, you know, if the weight gain was sort of just last minute, drink gallon of water, you know, all that stuff. We don't really know. And so it doesn't answer all the questions that, like, we have about him. But at the same time, it just, like I said before, it just kind of like puts those questions sort of in the back burner. If you would wait in at like 190 or 185, that is a major, major problem.

And that's actually, you know, switching gears a little bit. Like Marquis Brown wing in at 166 to me is a big worry because there just aren't many guys in the NFL that play sub 170 have any success. It's like very, very rare. And the fact that he couldn't put on weight for the combine for that reason is a little bit worrisome. Obviously, you know, he had that LISFranx surgery. So that's, you know, part of the equation. But there is a reason they do the combine, do the measurements. Those things matter.

They have these data sets that they look at historically. And yeah, so like the Kyler-Marie thing, I think that was a win for him. The Marquis-Brown weight 166, I think that is a potential loss for him. The height and weight stuff is all about crossing people off? Is he crossed off for this position and how we see it from a height-weight speed perspective? And with Kyle Murray, I think that he's on more teams list now that he would have been if he was 5-9. And I think with Marquis-Brose-Brown, it's the opposite. where I wrote about it yesterday, you did something similar statistically,

but I think that the only players who are under 170 pounds since 2000 to have more than 300 receiving yards in the season are JJ Nelson and Taylor Gabriel. It's a very short list. You got to be fast as hell. I think it's funny. But they weren't first round picks. Right. And then he potentially could be.

I think it's funny to me when he's talked about the drinking water, whatever it is. I remember a couple of years ago coach telling him the interviews have become worthless year because everyone is so trained to the questions. And everyone sort of makes fun of those strange questions like the Bengals asked a prospect about the Civil War a couple years ago, just like some strategy stuff. And the reason they do that is because they want to see how they can prepare for the unprepared. For the questions you cannot prepare for. And so I'm wondering now if things like weight, you can game that where it's almost like the opposite of weight cutting in boxing or MMA where it's like instead of just trying to lose

15 pounds in a week, you're just chugging water constantly. You're doing a non-weight cut, a weight gain. And that's, is he going to run the 40? Because if he doesn't, then I think that's very indicative of him not thinking he's as fast as he can be right now. Right. I don't think he's going to, I think the last word that we've heard is that he's not taking part in any tests or throwing.

Yeah. Because, you know, maybe he just doesn't feel like he has anything to gain in those areas. Trust the tape or whatever. Because the most important thing for him this week was how big he was. Right. It was the most important. thing, which is crazy to say about possibly the number one pick in the draft, but it really was the number one thing he had to prove this week. Absolutely. And so, I mean, yeah, I think there is, Kevin, there's like the idea that you can game the system a little bit, change your body. But the fact that he was able to do that weight gain, I think is kind of a good sign. I mean, he gets compared to Russell Wilson sometimes. I don't think that's necessarily the best comparison, but size-wise, they're somewhat similar. Yes. And Russell Wilson has changed his body composition several times throughout his career. He actually cut weight, I think, to come to the combine. He was, like, if you look at pictures of Wilson at the combine in 20, I guess 12 or 13, I can't remember.

He was pretty skinny looking. Like, he got down weight so I think he could run really fast. You know, he plays probably more close to like 215, 220 now. He's pretty, like, well-built. It looks like a running back. Just the fact that Kyler Murray can kind of could have was able to do that, put that weight on. He doesn't look bad. Like, he looks pretty normal.

Like, he looks like he looks. I think that's probably a good sign. Like, the fact that you can kind of change your body composition to be where you want it to be or whatever. Is he going to play it that way? Who knows? He might play more close to 200. and I guess trying to be faster or whatever, have that aspect of this game still a big part of it.

But I just think overall he's not 180. That was what people were worried about. And I think, yeah, overall, that's just a good thing. And he's an exception. And exceptions are okay, but we have to understand why they're exceptions. The reason that Russell Wilson can sustain success in the NFL while being a guy who runs around at 510-2-10

is because he's getting hit very often. He's very, very good about maintaining his body and just being conservative in the right moments. And if Kyler-Murie can do that, then it'll be fine. fine if you weighs 200 pounds, but we need to understand why these guys are able to survive, not just that they do. Well, I also think the era of football is a little bit different.

You know, one of the best conversations I had all each year was with Matt Hasselbeck, who took me through all the hits to end his career when he was 40. And he was saying, okay, body weight would have knocked out, would have eliminated this hit that they kept me out two weeks. Helmut to helmet would have eliminated this hit. And all of a sudden you start to stack it up. And it's like, these guys are not getting hit in the same way. the people in, you know, forget 1999, 2012.

And so Kyler Murray just being a quarterback in 2019 is going to be hit less and less ferociously than any quarterback in the history of football because it just keeps going down every single year. Well, it depends on how he runs with a ball. That's the number one issue. If he's going to extend plays and he's going to try to be effective as a runner

and do damage as a runner, does he get down? Does he get out of balance? Because you watch Deshaun Watson run, it doesn't matter what the rules say. He wants to get that extra yard much to his detriment. And I think that that's the thing. Is Kyler Murray going to be the type of guy who plays like Russell Wilson and plays smart? Yes.

I mean, we were watching a replay of the Browns Ravens game last night. It was just on at the bar. And there was a play where Lamar Jackson stepped out of bounds, came back in and took on a defender like full speed. No reason. No reason. You already went out of bounds, dude. Like, he has to absolutely learn to slide. I think he can. I think he does.

You know, it's a total cliche, but the whole baseball player thing can slide. Sure. It's probably helpful. Kevin's mad at me now. I just want to say I left the bar to go to something else when you guys were there. And I was wondering what I missed. And it turns out I missed you guys watching a replay of the Browns Ravens game. We were doing that before we saw you. Okay.

No, no, no, no. I just wanted to fill in the gaps there. All right. So beyond, beyond just kind of the stuff that happened this, we can talk more about that, though. I mean, obviously the Marquis Brown. One thing was a weight in a way in measurement, kind of note. D.K.M.K.K.F. looks like a monster. I'll be really curious to see how we tested. But beyond just the things that have happened off the field so far and before workouts,

just watching players and kind of getting more acclimated with these guys over the course of the last few days. Is there anybody that has made a drastic leap or just you kind of think about differently now than you may have last week? That's a good question. I think we haven't really gotten into a lot of the testing. The offensive alignment are doing testing as we see. speak. I think a guy like Jonah Williams, who a lot of people are split on him being a guard or a tackle at the next level, I think his arms came in just below 34 inches. I think he, his, his measurements came in so like, you can absolutely see him being a left tackle. I think that is like a big win for him. He's potentially a top 10 pick. And so that, that to me is like one of the storylines of the

measurements phase. I'm just trying to think like this is actually kind of an interesting combine in the sense that there's not a lot of hype. I was on the radio the other day and they were like, what is the buzz about here? And I was like, well, Kyler Murray's way in, but he's not even going to test. Yeah, there isn't much. There isn't a, there isn't one specific thing that people are really buzzing about. I think there's a several position groups that are really interesting. I think the offensive linemen and the receivers have some really interesting players. Receivers, particularly, there's like the whole spectrum of type of players. I mean, you've got D.K. Metcalf, you've got Hakeem Butler, then you got Marquis Brown and like smaller,

shifty guys. You've got A.J. Brown, who looks like a running back playing receiver. There's just all kinds of guys. And so there's a lot of, I think, if you're going to say there's buzz or excitement about anything, it's watching, there's the receivers, it's watching the offensive linemen. Obviously, defensive alignment is going to be huge this week. Oh, Ed Oliver. I think that was actually kind of an interesting thing this morning. He weighed in, I think, at 287. So that was a good wait for him. That's plenty. Yeah.

I mean, that's like more than what Aaron Donald weighed in. Obviously, that's a comparison that happens a lot. I don't think he's Aaron Donald, but he's a very good player, very explosive. And being at 287 is a very good number for him.

We'll see how he tests. I think that over the next few days, he could generate a lot of buzz. Among the receivers, is there anybody that you particularly like, that's just one of your guys? I think he Kim Butler is starting to, he's starting to,

he's standing out to you a little bit based on the things you've said to me and tweeted. I'm reticent to say he's my guy, because there are worries with him in terms of drops. And he's like, he's just massive. Like, if you look at his web chart on mock drafts,

oh, it's incredible. The measurements, it's just, he's like 98th percentile and everything. I mean, he's a big, big man.

I think actually I heard that he set the record for wingspan at the receiver position at the combine. He's like almost 84 inches or something. He's got. Yeah, so he's got an insane catch radius. I'm a little worried about like, you know, his ability to separate,

his consistency as a catcher, but he has immense upside. I'll put it that way. like his ability to get behind the defense is really good. He's really long strider, really fast. So I wouldn't necessarily say he's like, you know, my pound the table guy, but I do like him a lot.

I'm really interested to see how Nikila Harry runs. I think he's just kind of one of those guys that's really polarizing right now. Where's he from? Arizona State. He's a guy that is like really big physical, super productive. But he's also sort of like there's, he's kind of in the Alshon Jeffrey mold where you're like, can he separate or is he going to have?

have to only sort of use his body and win contested catches and things like that. I think he's going to be really interesting. The Stanford guy, JJ R. Sega Whitehead is a really interesting player. He's like former basketball player, box out king. Like if you watch him, they just throw it up into the end zone and he boxes guys out. It seems like that position is deep, but there isn't a lot of high end talent. Would that say, would you say that's a fair assessment? Yeah, exactly.

I think, you know, you could make the argument that that D.K. Metcalf is like a blue chip player, but at the same time, his production wasn't that great in college. He was the second best player in his team, or the second best receiver in his team, wasn't he? Well, second most productive for sure, yeah. And that's the thing, exactly. Like, there's a lot of people split on whether he's going to be even, you know, good at the next level. What are his weaknesses? Because, I mean, I feel like when you have a guy like that, that's built like that, that's so huge.

Typically, people are worried about flexibility and can you get it out of breaks. It seems like he can do that, though. He's got really good start-stop acceleration. He's, I think the reason he's been compared to Josh, to Josh Gordon is because he is that deep threat guy who can win on like posts and things like that. But he's not necessarily like a really refined like route runner. Gotcha. You know, he's not really sudden in the short area. He's a deep threat guy.

Like he tracks the ball really well. He, there's one play against Auburn, I think it was when he like reached out for a for a pass that was a little bit too far like downfield. and he just like go-go-gadgett armed it. It was like amazing. And so he can track the ball. He can go down field. But I mean, he's really unproven. Like the production, he was injured last year at a neck injury.

So there's tons of red flags too. So he's one of those guys that has like elite potential physically, but he has to put it all together. And that's like receivers are so risky in that sense. Is there anybody on the testing side of the defensive linemen that you're curious to watch? Because that's kind of the marquee position group of this draft. Well, you know, Brian Burns is the guy that we've debated. I mean, I've just started watching him, but him weighing in at like, what, it was a 240?

2.49, which is a great number for him. Again, it's like, it's the same question of Kyler Murray. Like, is that real weight? And is that going to be something he can kind of keep his explosiveness and keep, like, the skill set that he had at Florida State was he's really, really quick and really bendy and flexible? Is he going to be able to play like that at 249? And is that like a legitimate way that he can keep on and all that? Those are still huge questions. But I think being 249 versus what he was listed at, on NFL.com at 226. Yeah, that's a huge difference.

So, like, that is a massive change. So I'm really interested to see. And can he still move with that? What does he test that when he has gained that much weight than that's worth of time? Like, his upside and what I can envision him being, if he can keep that weight and keep the athleticism that he had, makes him really, like, an interesting draft,

like, potential top 10 pick. But there's so many questions. Like, he's just really one of those guys that we won't really know until, like, training camp preseason, like, whether he can even play at that weight. So, you know, he's a guy that I think his testing is going to be, it's going to tell us a lot. I think he's going to test.

You know, everything I've heard is that he's going to test. So we'll see. Is there any, since you've had conversations with people since you've been here, is there anybody where you just are like, what am I missing? Whether you're being, you're too low on them or too high on them, where you're just very separate from the rest of kind of the draft community right now. I don't know if there's, I don't know, I wouldn't say I'm down on Josh Allen. He's one of those guys that people say he could even go like top two, top three.

Like to me, I'm just wondering, I'm a little bit worried that he's not the refined pass rusher as like Nick Bosen and Quina Williams. Those guys, you know, have like a really refined repertoire of moves. They're like very dominant pass rushers. Allen's numbers were insane. He did like his, his numbers were absolutely insane. So like I can't, you know, dispute that. But yeah, but put to me, Josh Allen, he's a prototypical three four. outside linebacker. Is he going to be the type of guy that like a 4-3 team wants to draft and put his hand in the ground, get upfield? Or is he going to be more of like a guy that they're having him drop back a lot, you know, play linebacker, play off the ball a lot? Like what, I guess my question is like what's his ultimate role in the NFL and is that as high value is like a Nick Bosa? You mentioned the 4-3 versus three-four thing. I'm curious with all of those sort of scheme flexibility, how much you think that matters now as far as scheme fit versus maybe five, 10 years ago?

Well, yeah, with people, with teams playing nickel, like 70% of time, it doesn't really, like, it's not like as big of a deal as it used to be. But, like, his, just the way he plays, like, he almost always rushes out of a two-point stance. He rarely has, he does rush every once in a while with his hand in the dirt. But, like, he's most comfortable in a two-point stance. They used them all over. I comped him to Jamie Collins, just in the sense that he plays all over the, like, formation. Sure. And I think, so, like, he's an excellent athlete, amazing athlete.

athlete incredibly productive. I can't look past the production. But I guess I'm just kind of curious, like, it sort of depends on what team gets him because how they use him is going to be important. Like, how they deploy him as like a weapon in their defense is going to be important. I think he has a potential to be an elite star, but at the same time, he's not like a traditional defensive end, like Nick Bosa, who is just going to like wreck havoc off the edge. Yeah. And when you're sitting there in base, even if, you know, you go to your nickel package, you're probably in. I mean, the Rams ran against mostly teams in nickel the entire game. So if you are that linebacker type build and you have to be playing defensive end

against a team that's going to be running at you on second and four, that matters. Yeah. I mean, that's the question. Right. And he was a little bit inconsistent in his ability to stop the running. Kind of like overran plays every once in a while. And now, again, like, to be clear, I'm not down on Josh Allen. But like, those are my questions on him in terms of like his fit at the next level.

Like, is he just going to be a hand in the dirt, rush the guy? rush the passer 90% of time, or is he going to be like a drop-back off-ball linebacker, Sam linebacker in a 4-3 or whatever? Those are my questions about him. I think he's a very fascinating player in this draft. Awesome. That's all we got for you, buddy. Really appreciate you doing this.

I'm sure we will be talking a lot more here over the next couple months. That's all we got, guys, for the Ringer NFL show on the Ringer Podcast Network. We will be back next week, and thank you again for listening.