The Ringer NFL Show - NFL Draft Recap, Handling a Championship Loss, and Vulnerability in Sports With Brené Brown | Flying Coach With Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll

Episode Date: April 28, 2020

Pete Carroll gives an inside look at how the NFL draft went for the Seahawks, talks about a few of their picks, and discusses how college experience affects a player's draft stock in the NBA and NFL. Pete and Steve reflect on losing a Super Bowl and an NBA Finals in devastating fashion and how to learn and move forward from it (0:15). Then author and speaker Dr. Brené Brown joins the show to talk about turning vulnerability into strength as a coach, preparing players for public scrutiny, and more (24:30). Hosts: Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll This show is raising money for COVID-19 relief. You can help! Donate here! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of Flying Coach on the Ringer Podcast Network is brought to you by World Central Kitchen, their relief team, working across America to safely distribute individually packaged fresh meals and communities that need support. They are now serving tens of thousands of meals daily in some of our biggest cities like New York and LA. They're launching initiatives across America to deliver fresh hot meals to hospitals and clinics, fighting on the front lines while keeping local restaurants and business as well. you can directly help these heroes in hospitals and clinics who are fighting for us. And you can help keep your local restaurants live. Go to the ringer.com slash WCK to donate, please. We are trying to raise $250,000 this month. If you have the means, it's an unbelievably great and useful cause that helps our hospital heroes,

emergency workers, and local restaurants. Please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen. It's a charitable donation. If you want to find out more about them, go to WCK. And once again, if you want to help with our big drive, the ringer.com slash WCK. Meanwhile, as a thank you for all the frontline workers for COVID-19, P. Carol and his company compete to create are offering a free online course and high-performance mindset, coincidentally

called Warriors Edge, the unique curriculum tailored to the various military government and first responder branches will prepare personnel with mindset skills that will transform their lives, both personally and professionally. The course is an incredible insider look and in Pete's philosophy, culture, and leadership. The stuff we're talking about on this podcast, actually, it also includes insights and teachings from his partner at Compete to Create High Performance Psychologist, Director Michael Jervais, and former F-19 fighter pilot, Jonell McCauley. You can find it by going to his website at Compete to you.

to create.net backslash Warriors Edge. It will be available for free for any home working with COVID-19 through the end of 2020. Coming up, Steve Kerr, Pete Carroll, it's a good one. Here we go. All right, here we go. Flying coach,

Pete Carroll and Steve Kerr, Pete. Welcome back. This is episode three, fours. You were a little busy last week of the draft go. Yeah, we made it through it. What a, what are you need? experience it was, you know, and such a unique experience in coordination and challenge to figure something out that you'd never done before. So it was really, that was rewarding to get through it. Our guys were incredible. They were so poised throughout the process. We had, you know, the tech

backup people and everything was really smooth. We found that there was a lot of, very little activity in the first round in terms of trading, which is the trading part of it was really the intricacies that we were concerned about, and it was really quiet. And then once, you know, we start up the second day with the whole day. Everybody got kind of bold about it and then it was just like normal. So it went fine and we're really happy about her picks and excited about it and the process went really well. I thought it was really interesting. It gave the viewer at home a totally different perspective. I mean, we're basically looking at your living room. You know, we get to see where you live. It was almost surreal. You know, all these famous people, all these coaches who we see every week

and instead of seeing them in the draft room at the facility, you're behind your desk with your dog running around and your family pictures in the back and who knows what else is going on. But it was unique. And everybody I've spoken with who watched it really enjoyed it. Yeah, we've heard nothing but good stuff. I had the TV on across the way and wasn't paying attention to the broadcast,

of course, because we're paying attention to the draft. So to hear the comments about people enjoying seeing the families and the kids and all the crazy little basic things that happen in our homes, I was kind of surprised at that. I didn't know how that would come across, but it was a real good openness about the way it was presented. And, you know, Roger did a good job. Everybody really did a good – it was really his foresight to see that we could pull it off, you know. And he really kind of led it with really good direction and all of that. And then in the meantime, we had to go back to work and figure it out. They pulled it off. So it was, it was fine. All right. So I'll ask you one football question because I'm not a, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not Todd McShay, but, uh, your pick comes about. And a little bit of a surprise, according to the experts, right? So guy you picked from TCU, Jordan, Texas Tech. Yep. Texas Tech. Yeah, Jordan Brooks. Jordan Brooks. So what did you see in Jordan? And

And was it more difficult to do all your research because of the circumstances? Or were you really comfortable with all the information you had on him and the people who went right behind him? Yeah, we were real comfortable with the process, knowing that it was relative and everybody was limited in the same fashion. You know, we went out to compete to figure out all the edges that we could. We found a guy that was a four-year starter, a four-year all-conference player, terrific kid. We had seen him play across the board in all different types of scenarios and how their coaches had played him. A fantastic kid with a real sense of purpose. He was very driven to be great.

And to us, we draft the guys that we want to coach and what we want on our team rather than maybe the people that everybody's talking about are looking at. And maybe some really are, we've been around long enough, you know, this year 11 or whatever. And we're fine about going our own way, you know. We really dig in to try to find the guys we think are going to be the most impacting with our team and in our style. So we found a great kid. I always love, you know, during the moment you hear the draft experts, so-called experts, you know, ranking, they give you the immediate ranking or whatever.

And all you have to do is look at past drafts. And it's every single one of them is littered with mistakes, you know. Guys you're, and because it's impossible, it's impossible to figure out a lot of lot of this stuff, the human side of it. One thing that's really different in the NFL for you guys than for us in the NBA, you really do get a chance to look at the whole person. You just mentioned that Jordan Brooks was a four-year starter. That's a lot of tape to look at, a lot of background information, people you can talk to, you know, what kind of kid is he? What's he like as a teammate? We are making decisions now in the NBA based on, in some cases, just three or four,

college games or zero college games and maybe a player is going overseas to play for a little while. But it's so different now in the NBA compared to 20 years ago when most players were at least going to school for, you know, two, three years. And in fact, one of the one of the things that I think has been really helpful for our team is we do have a lot of players who have college experience. Draymond Green playing four years for Tom Izzo in Michigan State, you know, Steph Curry playing three years at Davidson. The college experience, we think, is a really big deal, but it often in the NBA drives the players' value down, ironically.

Yeah. That happens. You know, we have guys that come out early, too. And sometimes they're like true juniors. They've played three years or even redshirt sophomores that come out, you know, and they've only played a couple years, and they feel like they're ready to go. And so they pull the trigger on it.

and it, you know, it's a decision they have to make for their own individual situation and setting and all that, and the coaches are usually, you know, in support of, but sometimes they're not, because they think there's better choices for the kids, but I can hardly imagine taking a kid that's a freshman in college. Say, you know, like Kobe never even played, you know, college, but a freshman in college, he plays one year and he's out, there's so little to go on there, because all of the things that come to a young man's life to him that could change him in so many ways hasn't happened yet. So you don't know what you're getting. You know, you don't have a clue.

All you have to do is think about yourself at 18. You go, oh, my God. Can you imagine somebody paying me that amount of money to be a professional? And I had no idea what the hell I was doing at 18, 19 years old. I agree. Hey, did anything go wrong in the draft, like from a technical standpoint, any glitches? because we're going to prepare for our draft, and it's probably going to be something similar

in terms of the virtual dynamics of it. Anything go wrong that you had to deal with? No, I made a classic error myself. And just minutes before we start the draft, I had a real nice laptop that wasn't being in use, so I decided to go with my tech guy. We decided to go with that instead of another iPad that I was prepared to use.

And sure enough, something that is, It isn't worked out, and you haven't, you know, you haven't drilled it on it, you know, because we had drilled just incessantly to figure this stuff out. And right, like, okay, I'll go without that. That'd be great. And I couldn't find any. I was, you know, interrupting. And I needed to be on mute, off mute, all different kinds of.

I totally screwed up. So I just unplugged it, threw it away and said, okay, let's go back to the iPad, go back to your jumper from the top of the key instead, you know. And, you know, it was a classic. It was a real screw up. So I had to learn again. You said that in the first round, there weren't a lot of trades. Was it at all complex to reach out and contact a team to talk about a trade?

Or was that pretty smooth? It worked out fine. We have a number of guys that were doing. Remember, everybody's in their own home. We're not in the same place. So everybody's in their own home calling around. And I was so impressed, you know, how poised our guys were with the timeframes that you're working against and the multiple choices.

We would have sometimes five and six different draft options and scenarios in front of us on the screen to figure it out. And John did a great job. And it really, it just speaks to the experience and just to, you know, just the background of our group that had worked together, too. I mean, you know, if you were a new group and, you know, you might have some other issues, but we didn't have any glitches. We'd have any problems. And the whole, the whole thing worked out fine. So. Well, the draft is always a great reminder of change within a team. You know, how, how often our teams change identities, how much personnel turnover there is and how quickly this all goes. Even for a player who plays for a decade

in the NFL or the NBA, that's relatively brief in the time frame of somebody's life. But it spans a lot of sort of different times within that person's life. You know, you get a guy at 19. He comes in. He doesn't know what he's doing. By the time he leaves, he's 29. Maybe he's got a couple of kids. He's a father. He looks at the world differently. So as coaches, you know, we have to have our finger on the pulse of all that. And you've got to do it with 50, how many players on your team? 55. We'll have 60-something players, you know, with their practice squad and all that. So we're up there. 60-something. We've got, you know, 15 on ours. So easier for me to do than for you. But it's always fascinating to think about kind of the journey that each team is on.

on and how it's constantly changing and you're adding new players and other guys are retiring and maybe you trade guys. But it's interesting to me to think about your team in particular, Pete, you guys won the Super Bowl in 14? Yep. So these guys who you are drafting, you know, they were maybe 14 years old, 15 years old when you guys won the Super Bowl. And you've had quite a run in between there where, you know, all kinds of different things have happened. Can you talk a little bit about kind of that journey that you face as a coach and what that means to try to bring the whole group along? The process, we went, we entered in with the team that was struggling, so we had the opportunity to do whatever we wanted to, you know, whatever we could create and envision.

And we did hundreds of transactions the first year. And we somehow made it to, a division, you know, they won a division with a losing record when it went to the playoffs. I mean, this crazy stuff happened, but we started it. And in the first couple of years, we drafted and found some guys in free agency that were, you could just tell they were the core guys of your program. And we were going to build a team around them. And we did. And we fortunately had a real collection of great competitive guys. And really, everybody had a chip on a shoulder. Everybody had something to prove. And they couldn't wait to go out and do it on a regular daily basis and the practices always showed, showed all of that intention, the toughness

and the aggressiveness and the competition, all that was always there. So that, it's how we built our program was based on the competition approach, you know, and central theme in our program. And, you know, we got those guys kind of in the early years growing up, we put together some good teams. We won a division a couple times. And then we went in and won the Super Bowl and had a fantastic, extraordinary Super Bowl experience. And we just, you know, how do you ever expect to go in a game like that and win by such a large margin? And we had a big game against Denver in New York. And it was, you know, just an experience of a lifetime. And it's where we had our first real challenge was how are we going to deal with that? You know, most Super Bowl champions don't do very well in the

next couple of years. You know, they struggle. And they fall apart. And it's the impact of that accomplishment that has such an enormous factor that it can play on everybody in a different way. Do you know offhand? Sorry to interrupt. Offhand. Do you know the last NFL team to repeat? Well, I would think, it must have been New England, I would think. Yeah, it doesn't happen very often. I mean, yeah, it just, it rarely happens. And so it's because of the impact of it's the media, the hype, the buildup, everybody's perspective is never the same from that point forward. You know, That's why we come back to next year and we go all the way, we're going to win a game, we're on the two-inch line to win the football game, and we throw an interception,

the dramatic defeat happens, and all of the impact of that one. Those two years were classic examples to me in the way I'm trying to teach is that we have to deal with the experiences that come to us and put them in proper perspective so that you can move ahead and not let that change who you are any more than you want to. You know, and the positive was a huge challenge, and the negative was a huge challenge. And they both, in my, the way I look at it, they become distractions that you have to deal with. And it doesn't really matter what the distraction is. If it gets in the way, it enters into your thinking, your mentality, your mindset, you have to deal with that.

So we, you know, we've seen the top of it. We've seen the bottom of it. If the bottom could ever be, you're in the Super Bowl and you lose, that could be the bottom. But it's what it came off like because we lost so dramatically in such a challenging moment and a great play by the guy from the Patriots and they get a great victory. So, you know, both of those, Steve, I thought were so important to deal directly with everybody's mentality and get us right back to what the next step we always take like during the course of a season.

The game we just played has nothing to do with the next game unless you let it. And so we have to take the next step with process and intent so that we can clearly get right back to the kind of focus that it takes to do your best. And it was really cool, if you go back for a sec, the years at USC, when we won so much for so long, we were constantly dealing with that. And we were constantly, you know, involved with accepting the fact that this is where you are and this is who you are and you're going to win, you're expected to win. We need to do all that it takes and just keep going back to that mentality. So I felt pretty prepared, honestly, to deal with it. And it's why when we lost

the Super Bowl, in the instant that we lost, I had thought about it. so many times, you know, how are you going to deal with this with the kind of disappointment, the biggest ever, well, this was just like the all-time disappointment crusher, and then what am I going to do, you know? And so in the instant that I've been over to think about it, oh, shit, here we go, you know. And it wasn't like it was a new thought. It was just like, oh, man, get ready because it was coming, you know, and all of the grief and the, you know, everything that went along with that was a long, long, hard process. And so yeah, we've, we've been through a bunch of it. Yeah. Well, we all have. And I think that's... You too. I mean, I mean, you got seventh game deal, too.

I mean, it's not... Yeah. Tell me, if you would. Tell me how that sounds what I was doing. What were you doing? What were you doing? Yeah. No, no, we had, I mean, a very, actually very similar experience because, you know, we won the title in 15, came back in 16, and we were a better team. You know, we, we, we, because of the championship in 15, we had this level of confidence that was just sky high, set a record winning 73 games, and then lose in seven games to Cleveland in the final. And so just running the gamut of this young team winning the championship in 15 to all of a sudden this team that's better losing in the seventh game. and these are my first two years coaching.

It's like my God. I can't believe it. I've just seen it all in two years of coaching. But I think this is sort of the point of why we do this. And you know, you and I both understand how lucky we are to coach great players and to be in a position to, you know, go to the playoffs, to win a championship. But this is the whole point of competing is you're vulnerable, right? You put yourself in a position where you're going to be judged by millions of people watching.

All of your athletes are out there and laying it on the line. And there's so much a stake. And so even as coaches, we feel that, right? Every move we make being watched. And because of all this passion and this interest that is out there for the NFL, for the NBA, all of a sudden you're in this microwave. and to me, how you handle both the winning and the losing aspect as a coach is really crucial. And I think it applies it at every level.

You look at a high school team, it's the same thing, a bunch of high school kids going out and trying to win a championship, a city championship, or a regional championship, playing in front of all their friends, the whole school is watching. Man, the players have a lot of pressure on them. And it's always the coach's job to kind of set that tone. And, you know, how do you keep the ship moving forward? Did you feel prepared for the moment, you know, in Cleveland? Did you feel like you, had you thought through, you know, that could happen?

What would you do? How would you deal with it? Had you gone through that in your mind? Because, you only coached a couple years. I've coached 40 years or something before my thing happened, you know. I had a lot of chances to get my butt kicked, you know. You hadn't. Yeah, I mean, I think one of our.

One of our tenets as a coaching staff is to always try to remind the players to have perspective. And so we're doing that throughout the season. You know, we're reminding them how lucky we are, how much fun it is to compete the joy factor of competition. Something I watched when I visited you in Seattle for practice those three days, watching your players bounce around and just love every second of the competition. competition on the practice field. I think all of that, to me, goes into that moment when you're when you're competing for a championship.

And it has to remain the same afterwards, I think, the approach of, hey, we're going to, for me, you know, this is, we're going to compete, we're going to prepare, we're going to enjoy every second of it. And then whatever happens, we're going to do it again next year. And the process, the journey itself is, is. is what is so enjoyable and ultimately what you're going to take from it. You know, we all have trophies at home or rings, but do you really spend a lot of time looking at the ring?

Or do you think about, man, how much fun was that with Marshawn and Russell Wilson and my coaching staff? And, you know, that year was amazing. It's the memories more than the actual sort of physical mementos for me. Did you have a plan that came, because I'm saying this because I kind of did, did you have a plan for how you were going to take those next couple steps? I mean, you got to go to the locker room first. You know, first thing you got to shake hands, then you got to go to the locker room,

you know? Yeah. And did you have a plan there? Yeah, I mean, I had a brief plan. The brief plan was to make sure I gave credit where credit was due, both to our team and to Cleveland. think it's important, you know, watching the last dance. I know you've been watching. I wasn't on the team. I wasn't on the Bulls when they beat Detroit and Detroit walked off the floor and didn't shake hands.

You know, I found that incredibly insulting. You know, you teach your kids a young age to show some sportsmanship, show some class, show respect. I think that's important. And so, you know, that's how I addressed my team was, hey, you guys. had an incredible season, and I couldn't be any more proud of everything you've done. We lost. We got beat. The other team deserved it, and give them credit. And you still go home and you see your family tonight and the sun comes up tomorrow. And then we, you know, take some time off and we roll it right back. And how lucky are we to be able to do this? Yeah, that's a great job, man. That's a great job. I don't think mine was quite as

smooth as they had. What did you say? Well, we, you know, we had been through it at SC. You know, we had gone back-to-back years when a national championship. And here we go, undefeated the next year all the way to the Texas game in the Rose Bowl. And it comes down to 19 seconds left. And if we hold them out of the end zone on fourth and seven, we win, you know. And sure enough, that darn quarterback scrambled around and ran in the end zone and wins the game, you know. And the very next thing I can recall is being in the locker room. I don't remember anything, the blur of it, and talking to those guys and trying to make sense that 19 seconds isn't going to define who we are. You know, we've already proven who we are. And that was the first thought that I had that time.

And so I've kind of been through it before, you know. And so it's not a great experience I cherish, but although it's been wonderful strengths in me in the sense. But the next time around, it was more, ours was so visible and it was such a crappy way to lose, you know, so instantly at the cusp of winning that I knew I was going to have to take it, you know, I was going to have to eat it. And I just, there was no way to explain that. It was, so I just did, you know, I just said, okay, you know, this is my fault and I did it. And I, you know, it just, immediately in the locker room, that's what came out, you know, and so, and that's what I followed up with, because I didn't think there was any other way to demonstrate how you should take

that. Did you say that to your team, Pete, or to the media or both? No, both. No, both. I mean, I felt like there's so much, there's so much hurt here that I would be better to take it than try to ask somebody else to shoulder it with me almost, you know? And just, that's what that instant was, like, okay, here you go, you know, get ready and just go for it that way. And so I don't know that that's the best way to do it, but I do know that I felt best about that. Do it. Yeah. that way. Yeah. You know, and we get all the credit sometimes, and then we should get to blame, too,

you know, and how that works. But, and I also wanted to demonstrate to the people around me, this is how you could, you know, you have a choice too. How are you going to, you know, where's the accountability here? What are you going to do with it? Right. And I never thought the guys would say, oh, no, no, no, not you, coach. I did it.

You know, I should have done this or that. But I wanted to take that moment to kind of, you know, do it. I think there's a great strength in, in that dynamic as a coach, you know, not just saying, hey, my fault, but meaning it, you know, where you're coming out in an emotional moment and saying, hey, that's, you know, I should have done this and that's on me and, you know, proud of you guys. And it's a difficult thing for coaches to say because it makes you feel weak. It makes, you know, it makes you maybe in your own mind look weak, you know, in front of this, you know, group of men who's all, they've all been fighting like crazy.

to try to get somewhere. But in a sort of ironic way, it shows great strength to be able to do that because nobody has all the answers. We'd like to, you know, think that we do. But especially in a sporting event, the ball bounces a certain way. You know, there's so many decisions you make. And you have to be able to live with a decision. And if you look at it and say, you know what, that's a decision.

I'd like to have back and you say that, I think a team really respects and appreciates that. Yeah, well, eventually maybe, you know, it was hard, a hard deal, you know, and the guy guys took it differently and it was just, you know, it's game, it's football, it's a sport, but it was like something died, you know, and there was a real process to get through. And, you know, so I don't know if that's the right way or the wrong way. I don't know. But, you know, if we were lucky, if we had the luck to have somebody that could maybe help us out a little bit and understand us, we should call on it, don't you think?

Yeah, that's a great idea. Actually, as a matter of fact, we do. Oh, my goodness. What happened? Yeah, how about that? So, yeah, we're going to invite in Dr. Bray Brown, who's an author and speaker, professor at the University of Houston.

She's written books. Dare to Lead is the title of one, which I love that title because there is kind of this dynamic when you're leading of, yeah, you've got to stick your neck out there, right? You've got to, you've got to dare. But you've brought Dr. Brown into your meeting room, and she's addressed your team before. Is that right? Yeah, yeah.

We were fortunate enough to, you know, come across Brunet's work and reached out and contacted her and just told her how much we liked, you know, what she was talking about and wanted to learn. we're competing, trying to figure it out. And eventually we hooked up and she came to see us and talked to the team and visited with us. And I know she's kept an eye on us for years as we've kept an eye on her too. And she's an extraordinary, gifted person in this whole field that we're trying to figure out. We need to be coached up.

So, hey, Brunay, could you enter in here and help us out, coach us up a little bit? We need some help. Yeah, I was slyly moving back and hiding my, you know, University of Texas Longhorn as you were telling your fear story. I knew it was there. I saw it. Hey, Brune, don't worry. One of the first things I had to tell Pete when we started this was how much I hated USC

when I was growing up because my dad taught at UCLA. I was a UCLA fan. So we've moved past that. We'll make it through the Texas thing. You got it. Whenever I work with coaches or teams, I have to find the love spot. So my love spot is I'm a Seahawks fan. And I'm from San Antonio.

And if you saw my house, you'd see my Spurs Pierapenale. So both you made it in barely. Love it. Appreciate you giving us a chance. Yeah, I was listening to your conversation struck by so many things. Of course, I have 5,000 draft questions, but that'll be for another time. I run our organization like we run draft day. I'm like, we're on the clock here, folks.

Bring it right now. What do you have in mind? They're like, this is actually not the draft for name. I'm like, it is in my head. You know, a couple things. I think the vulnerability piece is huge. The big mythology that all of us grew up with is that vulnerability is weakness. And we just crossed 400,000 pieces of data.

And I got so tired of trying to convince people that vulnerability is not weakness. It's our most accurate way to measure courage, actually. And then I had a breakthrough. I was at Fort Bragg working with special forces. And I asked a really simple question. The definition of vulnerability is uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. That's the definition. So when we feel vulnerable, we feel emotionally exposed and risk and uncertainty.

So I asked the soldiers at Fort Bragg, give me a single example of courage from your own life or that you've witnessed in any other body, anyone else's life. Give me one example of courage that did not require uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And there was just silence. Finally, one guy stood up and said, just tears in his eyes. Three tours, ma'am. There is no courage without vulnerability. And now we've probably asked, I would say, 10,000 people, that question, athletes from all over the world, special forces. I do a lot of work with the military, trauma search.

I mean, across the board, give me an example of courage. that doesn't require vulnerability. And there's not one. And so I think, and people get it. Like people, you know, and I think, but they don't get it until they think about it. And one of the big paradoxes is a vulnerability that's tough is in you, it looks like courage. In me, it feels like weakness. When I see you, it's the first thing I look for when I meet you. Are you real? Are you authentic? You know, you're not a bullshitter. But it's the last thing I want to show you about me. And so this whole conversation about vulnerability, as someone who works with a lot of teams, I have a very simple axiom.

You cannot unlock potential if you cannot unlock people. And so the same thing that we hold on to when we're coaching, that those chips on the shoulders, that passion, that fire, that fire can keep you alive. or it can burn down the barn. And show me a man or woman who wants to control fire. I'll show you a liar. No one wants, you know, no one, but coaching, whether you're talking about, you know,

my 14-year-old son's water polo team, my daughter's field hockey team, football, basketball, coaching, a lot of coaching is about fire. And that competitive drive, that love of sport, but what people are not prepared for in my experience, is for people who who play and live with fire, there is a series of deaths and rebirths that happen sometimes so quickly,

you can't catch your breath and figure out which one you're in. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. So I want to hear your experience when you went into the Seahawks meeting room. Were you in the big meeting room with the whole team?

Mm-hmm. I was. So as you're explaining this concept to the team, did it feel like you were talking to the coaches or to the players or to everybody all at once? What was your vibe in that room? Both. And I still talk to, I still text with several of the players. Yeah, no, I think I was talking to the coaches and the players.

Anybody listen. You know, just have equal opportunity. But I think it probably helps that I'm a sports person. person, like every year based on my feedback from like my corporate stuff, I get feedback that says, please limit sports metaphors. So I try to give them up for Lent every year. But it never works. Because I'm like, if you don't speak third and 10, we got nothing to talk about here. But I think what was interesting is after I talked, we state, you know, they had to get to practice and they got a serious don't be late ethic over there at the Seahawks facility.

Be early. Yes, be early. Yes, be early. That's even better than don't be late, be early. So they were like watching their watches, but they said, you know, we're scared about what you told us. We are vulnerable. And it's hard, but I can do it on the field. But what about with my son? What about with my wife? What about my mom who's sick? Like I can't swing so wildly from being tough to letting that show because I don't know how to do it.

And so we got to humanize sport and players. Yeah. And we have to understand the emotional landscapes they live in. I've always felt that it's sort of the balance between the vulnerability and the expertise that has made a really good leader. So you mentioned being a Spurge fan. You know, Pop embodies that, right? He's a very vulnerable person. and yet he also embodies strength and courage.

And I understand these things are tied together, but really what knocks it out of the park for me is his expertise. So he's not afraid to be vulnerable because he's really confident in his own skin and confident in his ability to coach basketball. And that's the combination that I think every coach. should be looking for. You know, it's great to be vulnerable, but you better know what the hell you're doing, too.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, for sure. And so I think I didn't know like baby pop or new pop. I only knew pop, you know, I just already knew him as a skilled coach. But here's what I would say. At this point in my life, early 50s,

where I'm talking to y'all, I'm talking to the equivalent of y'all in the corporate world, I'm talking to the equivalent of y'all in the military world. people are kind of at the top of their game. I'm at the top of my game. I don't know anyone, not a single person who got to skilled without being vulnerable first. That's right. Yeah, because here's the thing. Everyone that I know that gets to skilled somewhere in their career was super curious. And curiosity is vulnerability. So the question I have for the young folks coming up, young coaches, young teachers, young leaders is, is it more important for you to be a

knower or a learner? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, you got a, you got a hedge a little bit. Like, you can't say, it's like trust. Let's think about our marriages, our family. People will say, look, you know, I'll be vulnerable with him as soon as I trust him. Too late.

Yeah. You got to be vulnerable a little, trust a little. Yeah. Vulnerable a little, trust a little. Grow, slow stacking. The same with expertise. Yeah, yeah. And it just builds.

It builds. It builds. Yeah. Steve, let me ask you a question about this. Brinna, what do you hope, with all of the teaching that you do, what do you hope the listeners and the learners actually take away from your perspective? And how do you hope to see that come to light? What are you hoping happens? There's one thing about teaching stuff, and you tell people what you know.

But I know you want to give results out. You want people to have a better life and you want them to be more comfortable in their own skin. What do you hope that that looks like when people come away from the teachings? I think my very first goal that I set was 21 years ago when I was pregnant with my daughter, our first child. See, you said, you know, we were talking about how this is going to change everything. was in residency and he said, what do you want? And I said, I want to start a global conversation around vulnerability and shame. And I think that's happened. I think that where people are talking about those things more so than they have. I think the goal now is I really want people to understand

that vulnerability is not weakness. It's our most accurate measure of courage. You cannot get to courage without being vulnerable. And I think that's slowly happening. I don't know how you build a metric about it around it, but here's what I know. I haven't been in a company in an organization, whether it's a sports organization or military or business in the last 10 years that didn't invite me to come talk about vulnerability. And I've been doing this for 25 years. So the first 15 years, I went in with some bullshit Trojan horse.

I would go in and say, I'm going to talk to you about, you know, trust and team building. And then I would just talk about vulnerability anyway because you can't have trust and team building without those things either. People are using the word and people are understanding it now. And I think,

I don't think we can get to where we need politically, any other way, through posturing, blustery bullshit. I think what we want right now is transparency, honesty, honesty. We want people who are, you know, the whole epigraph for my work

over the last five years has been Theodore Roosevelt. It's not the critic who counts. You know, that's daring greatly. That's dare to lead. It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer deeds

could have done it better. The credit belongs to the person who's in the arena. Yeah, it's such a great quote and it's dead on. And what strikes me is it's never been more apparent than today.

with social media that our players are feeling that glare, that constant criticism and judgment. And it is just constant. There's so much pressure on them. And not just our players on young people in general, right? Think about just a normal high school kid, you know, looking at Facebook and feeling shame because of something that somebody posted. and, you know, how do you deal with all that and still grow and mature? We live in a pretty complex time to have to deal with what's a very basic human emotion,

but that our society really has magnified and complicated in many ways. I was working with a women's basketball coach college, and we were together, the three of us, and a men's football coach, college coach. We were talking about how do we work with these fans to be more respectful of the players? And they said, and we want to start with the players' own family. And which I thought was interesting. I had not had that insight before because there's so much pressure on these high school and college players, right? And I said, the biggest mistake we can make is you do not prepare the fans for the players.

You prepare the players for the fans. it's just like parenting. You know, it's like the lawnmower parent who tries to prepare the path for the child. That's just entitlement and disaster. You prepare the child for whatever path unfolds in front of the child. So I think part of coaching,

and I don't really know at the professional level, but definitely in college and high school, is preparing the players for the reality of the fans, for the reality of, you know, a lot of people still today, one of the number one kind of, I'm okay, and I'm saying this for the listeners in quotes, way for men to work out unprocessed rage and anger is still sports. And we can laugh at it and joke about it. But if you're a young player in the crosshairs of that, if that's someone you care about,

if that's a coach or your father or an older brother or a mom, you know, that's devastating. And so I think we have to prepare players for the, we're not, look, we're not good in fear. I'll never give up on people because it's all we have and that's my work. But people in fear are dangerous. And I think a lot of people take a lot of their fears out in sports stadiums on television. You know, we see domestic violence statistics about big game days, whether it's the NBA or the NFL. players look when that stops hurting players you've got a bigger problem on your hand than when it does hurt players right right that makes sense yeah hey prene well let me help me one more one more level here

if if if you would because i'm trying to get coached up here if i'm going to you've talked to our guys before in each room each year it's got uniqueness to it however they're still in the same spot where they're fearing, allowing themselves to be vulnerable and trying to understand how to mix that. It's like you brought up. How could I help them actually, because see, we got to get down to that. They got to do it. You know, I mean, to think about it and to have a plan is different, but to actually act on,

okay, I'm going to accept these teachings, and I'm going to put it into practice. How can I do that? How can I help them understand what they can do to get in connection with acting? vulnerably, you know? Yeah, I can help you with that, actually. And I'll tell you something I saw, I'm getting ready to post it on social media. I saw this amazing press conference with the coach. Are you familiar with the All Blacks, the rugby team?

Sure. So the All Blacks coach, they've been doing tons of work on vulnerability and dare to lead work. I mean, a lot of it. And he said something that is so overlooked when we try to start putting this work into practice. not only do you have to give people permission to be vulnerable, you have to take responsibility as a coach of how people respond to that vulnerability. Yes. So that if I'm on your team and we're watching tape and we're talking about something that went wrong at a game,

and I said, you know, that was me. and I'm really struggling right now. My mom's sick. My head wasn't there. And then Steve goes, oh, your mom's sick and your head wasn't there. That's where a coach has to say what she shared was brave. What you just did, I would say with chicken shit. But like, I wouldn't do that either, probably.

But I would just say, you've got to reward the behavior you want to see. And you've got to, in our terms, when we take teams through this work, you have to set a container. You have to set a container that is built by the people in the room that the players, the coaches, whoever it is, here's what's okay, here's what's not okay. And we won't have Coach Carol keep us accountable. We'll hold each other accountable, you know. And if you don't set a container, it'll never happen because it will never feel safe. And I can tell you for sure, just talking really openly, when I work with athletes, when I work with any people of color, in this world, for many people, vulnerability is not an option. They armor up to stay alive every day.

And then they get somewhere and you're like, hey, take the armor off, where your brothers, were your teammates, where your sisters, that takes a hell of a lot of trust building. And you got to model what you want to see in them. Like when you said, after, the after the game, after the Super Bowl game. That was my call. You know, that was my call. You don't have to call it vulnerability. You don't have to say, and aren't I being vulnerable and I'd like to model this. You know, you just have to be the person you want them to be in terms of vulnerability. And that's hard because sometimes we want vulnerable coaches, but mostly just when we're winning. Right. All right. You know, Brittany, there's a really, there's a really,

to me, that's a really clear point about, I know in my setting, just talk about that. I have got to become more sensitized and more aware of the response to the demonstration of the vulnerability so that we don't squelch it. You know, that's, it's the fear of being somebody popping off at what you say. It's the fear of being squelched by the masses in our meeting room that would make a guy, you know, bite his tongue and not say what he's really thinking. and I know that if I was going to help, if I'm going to help people be more vulnerable, I have got to create an environment through my sensitivity and awareness to make sure, like I think

you're saying, the container has to be available to be that way. And so that's why I do try to, that's what I take that responsibility personally. But that's only one thing. I mean, I'm doing it. I'm an old man. I've been through a lot of stuff. These guys are young guys that don't want to expose themselves to something. They're not sure what the result's going to be.

They're not sure how they're going to be received. They're not sure how they're going to be looked at from the next. step they take. And so it is why the environment and the culture, you know, Steve is so important for us to create so that the conversation can happen. So the willingness to make the, you know, the statement that allows us to be in a vulnerable moment has to be present and okay and all of that. As well as this, look at the big world too, you know, I know you're seeing it. The big world is it's such a mess. There is no place for this. And you're, you're, you're the, you're the the one that's carrying the flag, but we need so much more movement in this direction. And particularly

with our brown and black peoples in our country, they particularly need to be heard and received. And we're just, we just need to sensitize ourselves and get ready and help. Can I just jump in here? There's one thing I want to say that's super important that I love about with the All Blacks. And I'll show that tape with y'all if you want to show it on, if you play on the podcast. It's just a minute. That's the New Zealand rugby team, right? Yes, the New Zealand All-Ox. He said, the only way you can do that is to really know your players. Because the thing is that I've seen coaches and teachers try to go in and set up rules for the container.

But sometimes if I shared something hard and Steve said, don't worry, man, I'll cry with you. That could be the most empathetic, loving thing ever. But you would only, you can't set up. up rules that are better than really knowing people. And you're in a room with players and you hear somebody respond with something that maybe sounds a little smart ass, but you know it's full of love and the person who shared something vulnerable felt heard, that's gold. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the, it's one of the reasons I love basketball because, you know, each team has 12 to 15 players. And it allows for me to really get to know our players pretty well. Pete, I don't know how you do it with

60 plus guys, you're trying to connect with all of them. And so you really have to rely on your staff, your position coaches, I'm sure. And then you've got to try to make that connection on top of all that. But the guy who I think embodied everything we're talking about as well as any coach I've ever been around is Phil Jackson. And some of it is showing in this last dance documentary if you're watching. but we used to start every single day with a meeting in Phil's film room, which was very personal. It was filled with Native American artifacts.

And Phil was very interested in Native American history and spirituality. He felt we were a tribe and he referred to us as a tribe. And every day would start with a film session or a meeting of some sort. but it didn't feel like, oh, man, we're having a team meeting. It was just the gathering spot. You know, this is where we gathered every day, and it started to generate conversation. And so we weren't necessarily going there to establish some kind of, you know,

fundamental that we were going to work on for our offense or our defense. We were just communicating. And it took me a little while to figure out what Phil was doing. But every day, that was the first part of our day, was we were going to communicate and that trust was being built up. And by the end of that last dance, by the end of that season, we had guys crying in front of each other in these meetings. We had guys toasting one another.

It was such an incredible experience, but he set it up by being vulnerable and showing that vulnerability himself and establishing this culture of communication and trust for the entire season or actually multiple seasons. And it was it was never going to happen if it was just, hey, we got a team meeting, you know, every Friday or, you know, every two weeks. This was a constant and it was a huge part of our culture. And it made everybody feel comfortable within it. That is like class A example of culture building or container building.

That's a container. Yeah. And if you build it, miracles can happen in it. Hey, Briné, this is so fun to talk with you about all this stuff. You're on the end of it that I don't think all coaches have the opportunity to get there. They don't quite get there because it takes a while. It takes you some time and you get to live with your team and you're going to live with your program. You've got to find the freedom to get there, you know.

And it's such a great place for people to shoot tours. You know, for coaches, you know, we know, Steve, when they can get in the environment where they really can work with the people and really start to dig in and really start to elevate the trust that that allows you to go to the places that make for the really special connections. It's really cool. That's why it's always made sense to keep watching Brunay and keep track of you and what you're doing and all that. Hey, you're doing something. You're doing a thing with Unlock Us.

Yeah. Tell us about that. New podcast. I think we launched in March. And so it's a weekly podcast just on what do we need to know to unlock a little bit more of us? So I've done something, everything's been kind of COVID-19 focused right now. So grief, loneliness, connection, just what we're all up against right now. Fantastic.

I'm looking forward to listening to it. And I just want to touch on one final thing that you mentioned earlier that I think is really important for, especially our younger coaches who are out there. I mentioned the importance of knowing what you're talking about, and you said something which is so important. It's to be a learner, right? And there's such a fine line between having a grasp of something and being a know-it-all, you know?

And so I think that's where some coaches go over the top in order to try to appear like they're in charge. They can become know-it-alls. But that vulnerability that you talk about can really show up. by expressing the fact as a coach that you're still learning because we all learn, right? Pete, you're still learning. I'm still learning. You've been coaching for 40 plus years. You learn stuff every year. Something different comes up. And we're all trying to get better and trying to learn. And I think that's so important for our young coaches who are listening

out there to think about that. We're all learning, be a learner, you know, continue to try to push your own boundaries. And don't be afraid to show that, that, that, vulnerability within it, your players actually appreciate that. Yeah, we all need to be coached up. I agree right now. Thanks, Brene, for helping us out today. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. Thanks, Brene. Thank you. Pete, thanks so much for setting that up. Brené is amazing. And I'm going to try to get her to come in to talk to our team. Yeah, she's really something. And I'll tell you, like she said, players are still contacting her. Players that are done playing are still contacting her because She just touches your heart when you talk with us.

So we're lucky to have her. It was great that she visited, and hopefully we got a little bit better today. Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And, you know, I think that it brings to mind that, you know, sometimes shaking it up, bringing somebody in from the outside to talk to your team if you have that capability is great. I know Phil Jackson used to do that. He brought Bill Bradley in, his old buddy, senator from New Jersey, Greg Popovich. would bring people in. I try to do it in gold state, and I know you do it all the time with your

Seahawks. It just changes the whole vibe when somebody comes in and gives their perspective. I remember when you brought in the Blue Angels when I was there visiting you, and they talked about what it's like flying, you know, 3,000 feet up there going, you know, 800 miles an hour and right next to each other. You know, I was like the one, when guys share a new experience like that, and it's unique to just them, the only guys in the room, they walk out of there and they have something that is they own. You know, it's their own deal. And even though like Brenay's been all over the world talking all that when she's with us, you know, those guys walk out of there and they've got something

special. And it's just another step along the way to try to bring these guys together. And so it's good stuff. Nice going. And how's awesome. Hey, thanks. Enjoyed it. We'll talk to you next week. Okay, take care.