The Ringer NFL Show - NFL Draft Round 2 Reaction (Ep. 104)

Episode Date: April 29, 2017

The Ringer's Robert Mays and Mike Lombardi review the second round of the NFL draft, including Carolina's draft habits (2:09), the Colts' offseason moves to stabilize their defense (6:45), what Cam Robinson will bring to Jacksonville (8:21), and Arizona's impressive selections (14:11). Then they analyze the Bengals' pick of Joe Mixon (20:50). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Before we get started on today's show, I just want to congratulate the Bill Simmons podcast for winning 2017 People's Voice and Webby Awards in the Best Sports Podcast category. Thank you to everyone who supported us and voted. Welcome to The Ringer NFL show. My name is Robert Mays. I'm writer at the Ringer. Joining me on the other line, it's Michael Lombardi. Mike, how are you? I'm good, Robert.

How are you today? You feeling good? I'm feeling better than I felt yesterday. I'll be honest. But that was like a definite possibility. It was, there was no way I could feel worse than I felt yesterday. So I'm not sure there's much consolation in it. So we're recording this right now as the Browns are making the 65th pick in the draft.

We're going to be coming to you sort of live. But really we're here to break down the second round. Most of the impact players in the draft, the big name guys that we were thinking about before the draft started have already come off the board. And we're going to just dig into it a little bit. So if something crazy happens, you know, we are liable to react in real time. for the most part, we're going to be sorting through what's already gone down tonight. So, Mike, the first thing I wanted to ask you just, what was their biggest takeaway from round two? What was the thing that stuck out to you the most about what went down in the next 32

picks? Well, obviously all the corners for the secondary people that went. I think this took the round. I thought it was going to go a little bit earlier. But, you know, when you see Quincy Wilson go, you know, the 46 pick overall, you know, he's a really good player. I thought he might go. The Eagles take Sidney Jones coming off the Achilles.

at 43. I mean, so about the secondary. Carolina surprised me a little bit. They went with a specialty player in the first round, then they come back in the second round with a specialty player, you know, and then they finally picked an offensive lineman at the bottom of the second in Taylor Moten from Western Michigan. But it's been a defensive secondary draft. All right, so let's dig into Carolina first

because that's one of the first thing that jumped out to me. Obviously, they had two picks today. And like you said, after going with a guy in Christian McCaffrey yesterday that it's unlike most of the players they've had on their roster, even in recent years, not just last season. And now you get another one in Curtis Samuel that is a running back, as a receiver, can do a bunch of different things. So do you think that taking two of these guys is an overcorrection?

Or do you like that they kind of understood what their deficiencies were on that side of the ball and did everything they could to fix it? You know, I think they just did everything they could. I think they clearly sent them a message that they don't want the ball in Camp's hands on the ground. And they've got a lot of versatility. with their players that they selected. So you like that area that they did there. I just think sometimes when you become a team of exceptions,

you become exceptions. And that's what would worry me a little bit. You know, Curtis Samuel's more of a role player. Does he a running back? Is he a slot receiver? Same both players. I don't sure I like. It's interesting what Carolina's done pretty much since Gettoman's gotten there.

If you look at a bunch of their drafts, they don't shy away from throwing a ton of resources at the same position. So his first drafts in Carolina, I believe, He picked Starletououille and K-Wan Shorten back-to-back rounds. Last year, they really hammered the cornerback position. This year, they picked two very similar players. It's just, it seems like a theme every single year with them. They say, this is where we're deficient, and we're going to throw everything they have at it.

I can't remember another team that's been that aggressive in trying to stabilize one area every single season. If you go back to the Giants, the grading system that Gettleman uses in Carolina is the old giant system when Jor Jung was there. the Giants always had a history of always picking two guys at the same position. Interesting. You know, they kind of did it. And because what happens is when you tell yourself, we need a running back, you tend to move those guys up the board. And so when it comes your time to pick again, the highest rated guys are the position you need. So the next thing you know, you're picking two running backs or you're picking two receivers.

Or you pick a two, because that was the need and you fudge those guys up the board a little bit. And you've got on there and you said, well, we're just going to take the young at the Giants. And I think that I think that's how you explain it. I don't think it was an intent, but they went into the draft knowing they needed more skills. I think this is the result of it. So when you build your draft board, you don't change your board depending on which player you get in round one? That's really interesting. So that makes sense that this could happen.

The boards should stay. I mean, those kind of boards are going to stay the same because you should never, and this is a hard thing to learn. But you should, the draft is not to fill your team needs. The draft is about the 2000 and next year team. Okay. Free agency allows you to fill your needs. Free agency, think of it this way. Free agency is like junior college guys. You fill a need when you sign one of those guys.

The drafts about the long-range planning of the team, and they have two spots. So this will all come out in the wash, and they'll get rid of this guy or artist pain. They'll get rid of him or one of those backs, you know. And so you just stick by your board. And I think the teams that draft, well, over the years, when you look at the Dick Steinberg teams in New England, perhaps teams down in Houston tremendously. Mike Hollenbeck should be in the Hall of Fame for just picking the way the one conference championship game with Warren Moon a quarterback.

But you look at those teams, but they did a great job of utilizing the grading system. Same one that the Giants use, same one Gettleman uses, and they just pick players instead of worried about their team needs. So if we look at the corners that went off the board, would you say that Wilson is your favorite combination of talent and where he went? So value just combined with the player that he is? that I think that I think for the first time we're seeing the Colts have a guy that knows how to build a team Chris Baller I think there's definitely been there's a statement been made the guy knows how to build a team

he's been around guys that understand how to do it he's just not grasping he's not picking little receivers and wondering why he can't block the edges when he's in three receivers because he's got little receivers I think they're got a plan two guys that will really help their team I think the Colts are further away than just two players They're two major schools that can play on any field and play well. So let's just recap very quickly what the Colts offseason has looked like. 30 seconds. They go out in free agency and get both Jabal Sheard and John Simon, who I think further what they were paid are going to have an impact

that falls in line with those contracts. They also go get Jonathan Hankins as an interior player. So you have two edge guys and an interior player, and now you get Malik Hooker in the middle of the first round when many thought he was one of the most talented guys in the entire draft, and then now you go get Quincy Wilson. And both of those guys are first day starters, plus the free agency guys that they have added in this year, it seems like they could turn around that defense pretty quickly,

just from the sense of going from a laughing stock doormat to a middle of the road unit. I definitely think that. I think they're going to be better. You know, they added some role players, too. So they add Mingo. You know, they re-signed Darius, Darius Butler, so they get him back. you know, and they added Marcus Hunt from Cincinnati. I mean, these are not great players, but these are guys that come in and fill a role.

And then they've got to count on the Ridgeways and the Henry Anderson's to come through for them. But at least you see there's a plan. That's the thing that I like. I see there's a plan. That's why pre-game warm-up for me is so important because when you go out to pre-game warm-up, you can really see if a team uses a grading system. If you go to Carolina and you look at their pre-game warm-up, you know Gettleman has a grading system.

You know the Giants. You know they have a grading system. some teams you can tell they don't have one just because of the way they put just because the way they look. I would be remiss if I didn't dig into some of the offensive linemen that were taken because there weren't many yesterday, which hurts my soul a little bit. So it was good to see a bunch come off early today. Cam Robinson goes to the Jaguars at 34 and Forrestlamp goes to the Chargers at 38.

I want to talk about both of those because if you are going to go spend the fourth overall pick on Leonard Fernette, you probably should do a little something to help him. And what they had at one of those guard spots, Amame just isn't a starter in the NFL. They needed somebody at that spot, or if you're going to put him in one of the tackles. I don't know how much you like Robinson, but what do you expect from him?

What do you think he ends up? You know, Robinson was one of my 14 players. I thought he was plug and play and play. I mean, I know he's got a bad-looking body, and that scared people, but I thought he was a plug-and-play player, whether he plays left tackle or left guard. I think that they need it badly.

I think they definitely needed somebody that could go in there and do a job. It's not, you know, they don't have anybody left guard right now that you could say, wow, that guy could be a really good player. This is a classic Tom Coughlin. I mean, Tom Coughlin's going to take a school that we talked about with Gettleman. It's a size speed school. Probably using the same grading system.

They're going to be classified players. They want clean guys. Robinson was a clean player. For Nets a clean player. When I say clean player, it means they meet qualifications for the position. They're clean. And when you're in that grading system, you want what they call I players. So it's an I player.

So it's 64i or 68 I. That means the player's clean. He meets the qualifications. He has no letters. You want to take guys with no letters. They're the best players, and I think that's what Jacksonville did. And they moved up to get them. They were smart enough to know that, you know what, we need it.

We better go get it. And if you're trying to get the most out of your offense this year, if you're going to roll with Bortles again, it makes sense to say, let's just lean on the running game. We know that that has to be the basis of what we're going to do to move the ball because Bortals probably isn't the guy. And I don't think they should have necessarily made a huge move for quarterbacks in the way that other teams did in this draft. But if you're going to roll with him again, you have to have just a different avenue to move the ball. And it clearly looks like they're trying to go that

direction. Yeah, look, I don't think, I think they're not in love with Bord. The only guy in the building in love with Bortals is David Caldwell, the former general manager. I think Kaufflin's watched the tape. I think he's aware of it. I mean, you just can't force it. Build the toughness of the team. They're going to try to wear teams down. And Fort Nett, certainly, you know, they just couldn't make down the field in yards per attempt. So I think they're going to get better. I think Kaufflin will do a good job for him. Forrest Lamp is a guy that a lot of people liked, just as somebody who could come in and play. He's a guard probably in the league.

He slides in at that right guard spot for them. So you're looking at an offensive line at San Diego, Bukung, Orlando Frankel, and Matt Slosson, most likely Forrest Lamp and Joe Barksdale. A lot of those guys didn't play well last year, but we've seen them play well in the league. And I feel like if things click right for them, if they stay healthy and you add Mike Williams on the outside, suddenly this group offensively becomes pretty intriguing for me. I don't know how you feel, but I think there's a version of this Chargers offense with the two guys they pick this year that could scare teams. Yeah, I think getting Forest Laugh was a good get. I like Lamp better than Bowles in the first. I mean, Bowles went to Denver in the first time.

I thought Lamp was a better player. I think you could make the case. Well, Lamp was arm length doesn't allow them to play left tackle. Maybe that's why Bowles got ahead of them. But I do. I always am reluctant because I thought the Chargers at that high, a pig receiver guy in the top ten, I think receivers are all over the place, and hopefully sometimes you can find them. Some of those two, like the Williams kid and the Edmond kid that they picked San Diego did,

and they need better pass protection. And obviously, Lamp will help them. He'll go in and play guard. He'll help Philip Rivers. I think Philip got beat up a little bit too much last year and affected him. And he made some plays, he made some mistakes down the stretch that really cost them. And I think that certainly was the factor. But look, I think they've done a good job of rebuilding that line.

they need that line. That fluker, they knew he couldn't play tackle. He was limited at guard. I think they clearly needed to do that. Seattle also went up and got an offensive line, and they picked one. They got a center, that kid from LSU. So they're trying to bolster that part of their roster, which they absolutely needed to. And then up at the top of the second round, they got Malik McDal from Michigan State,

who I think a lot of people believe might have been a first round pick. He's an interesting player with the rest of that line when you take it all into account. If it's him and it's Michael Bennett and you have it. Avivor, suddenly you get a lot of guys on the field that can get after the passer when you put Frank Clark on the inside. Do you like how McDowell fits there? And do you think that he can make a different impact as an interior rusher than most of the guys they've had recently? I love how the I love the McDowell pick. I mean, I know McDowell that play hard.

I think McDowell's long. He's lean. He's athletic. I think when you run the one gap scheme like Seattle does, you need length inside. You need guys with long arms that can play off blocks. I think he'll play better for Seattle. There's enough veteran leadership in the room to kind of get him to play better. Look, I think Seattle's lost their way a little bit in the last couple of years.

I think today they're getting it back. It's time to stop trying to convert these offensive, these defensive linemen, and start him as rookies as offensive line. And I think the Postic pick is a really good pick. He can play guard. He can play center. He's athletic. I think he'll be a better pro than what we saw in the LSU tape,

but he's the ideal zone blocking guy for them. I like Seattle's picks. I think Seattle's done a good job of trying to get back to their identity. I think they've lost it a little. They kind of got away from them. They paid Richard Sherman way more money than they really want to pay a corner. I think this is kind of a redirect for Seattle, and I think they're back to where they need to be.

And I think if they just keep going in that direction, it will be better. One of the picks I thought was fascinating was Arizona going with Boudou Baker at 36. Outside of Patrick Peterson, who's more or less your prototypical cover corner, you know, one-on-one man-coverage guy. Do we know what any of the positions are on the Arizona defense? Like, there are no positions. We have no idea what guy plays which spot, which I absolutely love. But it seems like they have every single piece they've drafted in the last two days,

whether it's Hassan Reddick or Buda Baker, when you think about what Tyrone Matthew can bring them, deem Buchanan, it just seems like they have guys that can play tons of different spots for them. And I know that's what they want to do. but I just love that, especially on the defensive side of the ball, they have such a strong identity and a knowledge of their roster and scheme. Every single pick is done with a plan in mind, and that's why I come away from pretty much every draft saying, I really like what the Cardinals did. Yeah. Look, I think Buda Baker is a really good player. I could see him going.

I thought he was going to go in the bottom of the first. I think he's a good – he's versatile. And I think everything you said there is right about the Cardinals match up with some things as they go through the season. You just can't always just have a secondary that just standard and stationary. I think they did a good job with it. Arizona, this Baker, when you watched Arizona, her team, it was not pretty. And it started with the opening game of the season, and I think they got to do a better job. They get a better rusher now to go alongside Chandler Jones with Riddick, and they get a better coverage guy.

Well, the thing that Arizona did so well the last few years, that they had all that flexibility at safety. And we talk about corner that's definitely a need, but losing Tony Jefferson is a real thing for them. And I think that's what they probably see Buda Baker is able to do, is come in, play around the ball a little bit, be that Tony Jefferson guy that can be a little versatile and give you the flexibility that you're going to lose watching him walk to Baltimore. I like it.

I think it makes total sense if you try to see their path to maintain the defensive style and aggressiveness that they have in recent years. Yeah, I mean, you can't be afraid of free agency. So they made the choice to stick with Chandler Jones. They lost a really good player. in Jefferson, and, you know, they lost a really good defensive lineman as well, goes to Jacksonville. So, you know, I think, you know, I think when you look at it, you got to be, you got to be able to

lose players. I think they did. So we're going to get to the running backs here to get us out of here. But before that, I wanted to talk about Kaiser. I love it. I understand the issues with him. I watched his tape near the end of last season and kind of how nightmarish it was. I also watched what he looked like in that Texas game. And I know that Texas is off, our defense might be horrid, but he looked really good in that game.

And he had flashes the year before. And if you're the Browns and you have 17 million picks, why wouldn't you pick a guy that's shown an ability to look like and play like an NFL quarterback with a 50-second overall pick? What do you lose by putting another guy in the mix at that point in the draft? They have to take somebody, but to me, there's a couple of fatal flaws I see with Kaiser. I think he's really hesitant. There's not great anticipation when he's got the ball in his accuracy. His accuracy is like a wild thing from the movie. I mean, he's all over the place.

So maybe he just needs a trip to the eye doctor. Maybe that's what's holding him back. You know, the key place, okay, so hold the ball, and he's got a gun for an arm. He can throw it anywhere. He can put it. And I think when you really watch his tape and you see how he locks on the receivers, I just don't think he has a feel what I call a rhythm of being able to play the position. Now, hopefully the Browns will take the case.

Hey, look, he's not the answer. We're going to keep, we're going to try to develop him for four years. And maybe, you know, David Lee can get something out of him. And maybe David Lee can make him a better player. And you hope he can. But the reality of it is, I think he's far from a finish. Look, if you like Kaiser, it's hard for me to imagine how you didn't like Watson. Yeah.

I mean, but isn't that, is there enough of a difference between 12 and 52 that you would say it's worth taking a project? Oh, there is. Don't get me wrong. But, right. But you're still dealing with a project. here in terms of that. I mean, like, I don't know what talked to you into Kaiser that couldn't talk to you into Watson. I just don't know. But look, I think the Browns had to do something in this area, and they certainly did. I mean, they made a move. And it's funny because everybody thought Davis Webb was going to go in the bottom of the first could sneak into the first, and the Browns got

them at 52. So look, the Browns need a player to work with. There's no doubt about that. I mean, it's going to be a work of progress. So let's get out of here. Before we get out of here, let's chat about the running backs. Let's start with Dauphin Cook. A lot of people thought he may have been the best pure runner in this draft. He does not impress with the measurables did not test well. There are some other concerns people have about him just in terms of the guys he's hang around with, the people that he is associated with, you know, in his old life, all that kind of stuff. What do you think about him at this spot? And do you think that

it's really going to matter with who's playing in front of him in Minnesota? Yeah, I think, look, he's a dynamic. I think he plays faster than any times. I mean, he's one of those guys. I've watched a lot of him. And I've seen him live. I've seen him play. I think he played his times or faster than it's 40 times. He's a dynamic player. Yeah. And I think for where they got him in the round on turf inside in a dome stadium, I'm not in love with Minnesota's offensive line,

but I think it's a really good value pick for him. He can do things in the passing game. He doesn't have to be the man there. Mary can come in and play. Sue Ward here. You know, you're worried about some issues in terms of off the field away from Miami. You feel comfortable that he can go up there. And I think one thing about when you get picked in the middle of the second round,

when you think you're a top 10 talent, humbleness comes into play. And I think that you can certainly get to that, and I think that you have to use that as a strength. They just picked a guy Pat Elfline as we're watching this live in the third round in the center from Ohio State. Somebody I know a lot of offensive line purists really enjoy.

So they're adding some depth there. Maybe you figure out where Joe Burger goes. You add another player to the interior. You brought in Riley Reef and Mike Remmers and Free Agency. So they're trying to enhance that group in order to maybe pair him or pair them with a guy like Dalvin Cook and change the identity of what their offense can be. We'll see if it actually matters.

All right, before we get out, I think we have to talk about Joe Mixen and just where he went and whether you thought it was surprising. From what I would have been reported, I think Ian Rappaport had said he talked to several GMs. They were thinking he might fall to the third round. He goes in the second round. I think Shepter reported tonight that four teams only

were considering drafting him at all. It's probably not a surprise that Cincinnati was one of them. When you take into account all of the factors in this situation, situation, are any of them surprising to you, and did any of them stand out? You know, I think this, and I said this at the beginning of the process, it was going to take an owner. That shouldn't shock me. I guess it just, when people talk about how good of a player he is, maybe I just am not

thinking enough of teams in the NFL, because they're not giving me a reason to think highly of them, because it seems like every year these guys go. Last year, it was Tyree Kill and the Fifth. I mean, Joe Mixon was one of the first, like, 50 players taking in this draft. I just I guess it only takes one team and this time it happened to be the Bengals Look I did Tyree Kill coming out

I thought Tyree Kill was a really talented player I didn't think he would get drafted at all And I remember talking to somebody in Kansas City And they said you had to get an owner to sign off on it And they did And so I knew there were some teams that When did you think he would go? I actually thought he wouldn't go until Saturday

I thought he was going to be a Saturday there But again I really didn't think he would go If one of it and I isn't that kind of the thing if you're one of the teams that's willing to draft him and your owner's willing to sign off on him, you could wait because you know that meant not that many teams are. But if you think he's a second round player and you're not concerned, it just feels like that was the decision that was made here. Yeah, I think that's right.

I think that's right, Robert. I think that they had him graded in a certain spot. And because they didn't have to worry about having their owner talk about it, they just went ahead and make a pick. Man, here we go. We're going to be doing this again. You know, it's every single year, it feels like, oh, goodness. Well, there we go. Another second round in the books, and the third round is coming to a close here relatively soon.

We're going to be back on Monday to recap the entire draft. But until we are, as always, we sincerely appreciate you guys listening. Enjoy the rest of the draft. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. And we'll talk to you soon.