The Ringer NFL Show - NFL Head Coaches Draft! Who Would You Start an Expansion Team With?

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

Sheil and Patrick Daugherty from NBC Sports get together to systematically rank and debate every head coach in the NFL to determine who would lead their theoretical franchises.(00:00) NFL head coaches draft!(00:54) Pick nos. 1-5(21:01) Pick nos. 6-12(41:01) Pick nos. 13-32Visit us in stores and online at https://Warbyparker.com/RINGERNFLThe Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available.Host: Sheil KapadiaGuest: Patrick DaughertyProducer: Chris SuttonVideo Editor: Stefano SanchezProduction Supervision: Conor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm your host, Shield Capadia. Very fun episode today. We are doing an NFL head coaches draft. Here's the exercise. You've just been awarded an expansion team and you get your choice of any head coach in the NFL. Who's your first pick?

Who's the second pick? Who's the third pick? We're going to go one to 32 with every NFL head coach with my friend from NBC Sports, Pat Dardy. It's a very fun exercise. We agreed on some. We disagreed a lot on some others. So let's take a break.

We come back with the NFL head coach's draft. All right. We are back here with my friend Pat Dardy from NBC Sports. He is the guy I go to. When I want to talk coaching, he always does an annual column ranking the NFL head coaches starting at one, going down the list. I read it every single year. And I thought, you know what?

I want to do a pot on that, but I want to switch it up a little bit. And so here's the exercise, Pat. We are drafting head coaches for an expansion team. You and I, we've just been awarded expansion teams. And you know what? Roger Goodell says, you get your choice of any coach, any head coach in the NFL. Who are you going to pick? And we're going to draft them.

So we have our big board. Hey, here's my first choice. Here's my second choice. So it's a little bit different than your straight ranking because this is all about projection. You know, their resume matters, but the resume is not everything. You have to determine are these coaches going to be good for whatever, the next three, five, 10 years, whatever.

Maybe you take age into account and say, I don't want one of the guys in their 60s. They can't be coaching my team for a long time. Give me one of the young whippersnapper. So I spent a lot of time today, Pat, going over this. rearranging my board. We'll see if I stick to my board or if I'm just like, nope, instinct says I'm going in a different direction. Yeah, it's a shockingly difficult exercise, isn't it? This is one thing I always want to tell people when they're complaining at me about just the regular coach rankings. Like, oh, not so easy. Is it after you get down there and try to do it yourself?

And I think this is a, after you proposed this podcast format, I'm almost like, this is maybe how I should actually do the article, like approach it like I'm the owner or, you know, the owner. or maybe even GM of the St. Louis Stalions. Yeah. The team that was rather infamously not awarded to St. Louis, the Jaguars instead. Everyone at St. Louis thought we were getting an expansion team, and it was the Jaguars.

But yeah, I'm going to be taking this view as I'm the owner of GM of the St. Louis Stallions, who I would be hiring if I could have any head coach in the league. Yeah, get into ownership mode. You know, you own a second house in West Bond Beach. You wipe the sweat off your brow with $100 bills, you know. You're just the greediest person anyone could ever want to meet in any walk of life. That's the mode we're trying to get into, but we are trying to also hire a good head coach.

Okay, you're the guest, Pat. You get the number one pick if your pick of any head coach in the NFL for your expansion team. Who are you going with and why? See, this is one way where I actually did change my article this year because I kind of had the legacy ranking of Andy Reid as number one for several years. Not that he didn't deserve number one last year. They were just coming off a Super Bowl loss.

But I had already had that in the back of my head for several years. If I was going to start a team, as much as I love Andy Reed and as much as he's one of the greatest coaches in the history of American football, professional or collegiate, I think Sean McVeigh is the best in the business right now.

He's got that restless, innovative energy. Comparisons to Bill Belichick are kind of inevitable, but he kind of reminds me more of Nick Sabin where like he wants to win. Obviously Belichick would do anything to win. You know, take it a little too far. But McVeigh, the way he's just open to any idea. I don't think Bill Belichick was open to any idea where McVeigh, he's open to recycling assistant

coaches. He scours the country for new assistant coaches, even though he knows they're just going to get hired away from him to be coaches. He looks to the past for personnel groupings, for plays, also like blazing a new trail on certain fronts. And he's just so perfect in the way he blends old school, like execution and like being devoted to fundamentals with new schools. being open to new ideas and always looking for the next new thing, the next big thing. And to Sean McVay, not only is he, I think, the best coach in the NFL right now who I don't want to start a franchise with, I really do think he's already one of the all-time greats. He would have been my first pick as well.

You know, like you said, nine season, seven playoff appearances, has only had a losing record once, been in the Super Bowl twice, one at once. You laid out a great sort of background that he evolves. It's not like he's doing the same thing every single year. And the other thing that I think sticks out with him is, you know, for all these offensive coaches, we're going to talk about a lot of offensive coaches today. Who can do it against like the legendary defensive coaches? And he was putting it on Mike McDonald and Vic Fangio.

I mean, he had very strong game plans. And of course, Matthew Stafford helps as well. But, you know, I think that's what separates him is he can do it against the best defensive coordinators as well. The only thing I was a little nervous about was he's kind of spoken about sometimes he feels an emptiness or sort of the emotional roller coaster of being a head coach. And it's like he's only 40. But if I hire him for my expansion team in two years, if it's not going well,

is he going to be like, see ya, I'm taking a TV job. But if he's taking the expansion job, I feel like he can feel good about it that he's going to stick with you. So I like it, McVeigh, the number one pick in our draft. Now, initially, Pat, I had him number two. I changed it about an hour before the pod, but I'll go with the guy I originally had number one. And that's Mike McDonald, of the first.

the Seahawks. And I don't know if that would surprise people or not surprise people, but I was looking at two seasons, 24 and 10, two winning seasons with Gino Smith and Sam Darnold, already won a Super Bowl. I really think he's the defensive version of McVeigh in a lot of ways where it's just like, this guy, it's not, he doesn't have to just stick with his scheme the entire time. Like, he's going to evolve. He's able to find players that match what he wants to do or fit his scheme to match his player's strengths. And I feel like you're potentially getting a Hall of Fame caliber coach just, you know, in his third year, where he's only 38 years old, like, he could potentially be your coach for the next 20 years here. And so normally I lean towards

offense, but I really did think he was the exception, Mike McDonald, my selection, uh, at number two here. I completely agree. I have him at third, number three. So it's not like I'm too far down my board. And he, he's got McVeigh energy to me, too, where like he's very, just got a humility to him. Like, he'll do anything to win. And not unlike that dark, kind of Belichickian way. Like, he's just open to new ideas. He's open to admitting mistakes. I think the thing I was most impressed with about Mike McDonald

was the decisive actions he took last year. He's like, I know I hired Ryan Grubb, but that just wasn't the offense I'm looking for. Like, you know, swing and a miss there. Only one year, you know, erase some eyebrows. First year in the league, you're going to fire your offensive coordinator. He had a winning record, too. But he knew it just wasn't what he wanted, fired him.

He knew that Gino Smith wasn't what he wanted a quarterback. and very unclear if he had upgraded in Sam Darnold. He knew what he wanted. He took those two decisive actions. They could not have paid off in greater fashion, obviously. And just beyond last year, that's only one season. Sometimes you can get lucky and win a Super Bowl.

But he's got anywhere he's been that's been a top three or four defense. You know, Michigan, the Ravens, now the Seahawks. And yet he just, I think he has that, like, that openness to learning that McVeigh has. And just, I completely agree. that if he's not the second best coach in the NFL right now, he's at least top three, top four, and I would love to build a franchise around Mike McDon.

It feels like he's just going to set such a high floor with it. Normally, defense kind of varies year to year, but I do feel like he's the exception where, you know, I would expect for the next 10 years most seasons, he's going to have a very good defense. And Darnold was great last year, but imagine if they lucked into like a, you know, an even more talented quarterback

or someone who we would consider a top five or top eight quarterback in the entire NFL, then who knows what kind of production they could have there in Seattle. All right. So you said you had him third. So now it's back to you with the third overall pick, Pat, and you get the second person on your board.

Who is it? This won't be controversial, and it also won't be controversial, because I don't think anyone really debates how good of a coach he is. He's just not for everybody, and that's Kyle Shanahan. And I think McVeigh probably deserves the label

of best offensive thinker in the NFL. I mean, Kyle Shanahan has a very strong claim to that. I think McVeigh does several other things better than Kyle Shanahan, but like pound for pound, if you're just talking about play design, play sequencing, getting the most out of his offensive personnel, even though sometimes, you know, he has weird failures

where he drafts like a guy high and they somehow don't fit his system. But I look at Kyle Shanan as the ultimate play designer, the ultimate, the schemer, offensive schemer in the entire NFL. I think he's gotten better as a leader. I thought last year was really important for Kyle Shanahan too, where I think it was a really more resilient 49ers team last year. We know he's been the king of variance since he's been there since 2017

where either he's making the NFC championship game or they're going like 6 and 11. Last year they had one of those injury avalanches, and the team just didn't fold up. They were competing for the number one seed until week 18. Things didn't end well. Of course, but then too, that kind of ragged, limping along team upset the Eagles. in the wild card round. I just thought it was a different style of Shanahan team last year.

And he's a guy where, you know, he seems kind of stubborn sometimes. Like, he's kind of one of those coaches sometimes when they fall behind in a game. Like, well, it's over. Or I thought that just, it didn't seem like that last year of Kyle Shanahan. And if he's kind of becoming a more resilient version of Kyle Shanahan, I think he's like a truly elite head coach to build your franchise. Yeah, if I'm the owner, I'm like, all right, I'm probably not playing golf with him a lot.

He's probably not being like, let's go get lunch or let's hang out. might not be the best time, you know, because he is an intense guy for sure. But you know what? If I'm all about winning, we had the same top three here, Pat. We just had McDonald and Shanahan flip-flop. So we have the same three guys. I'm with you. I feel like he could have an Andy Reid second act. You know, if this doesn't work out, let's say the 49ers don't have a great year or the next two years or whatever. And he moves on. I kind of want to be in on Kyle Shanahan on his second act because he's only 46 years old. Like he's got a lot of, I can't imagine a life for him where he's not coaching.

It's very different from McVeigh. Like I think he's going to be in our lives for a very long time. He will be. Yeah, no, I know. It's kind of scary to think about it. It is scary to think about. It's like, are we going to retire before Kyle Shanahan retires? I just got that thought.

I got five kids. You know, so. Yeah, you might, I mean, you're going to be working for a while. Well, I retire before Kyle Shannon. I've only got two is the better question. But nine seasons, five playoff appearances, four championship game appearances. You mentioned it.

They had that streak where either. they weren't making the playoffs or they were getting at least to the championship round that I think was finally broken last year. I don't love his in-game stuff. I wish someone could get through to him. Don't be so conservative, dude. You are an awesome offensive coach. Like work on these plays, go for it on fourth down. Don't pun all the time.

But there's no denying. I think he does have a case as the best offensive mind in the NFL better than McVeigh. I bet you could, I bet if you did a poll in the NFL, it might be a little bit split between those two guys. But he's done it with Purdy. and Garapolo and even when backups get in there. So it has been very, very impressive. And that's just hard to find that a guy who can do it with quarterbacks at different levels.

So I like that one. All right. You ready for the first upset pick of the 2026 head coach's draft here, Pat? Let's do it. Ben Johnson of the Chicago Bears. I've got fourth year. And I know some of you are yelling. Give me a break, shield.

He's only done it for one season. I understand. This is why we are projecting here. had my choice, I'm buying into the Ben Johnson hype. They go 11 and 6 last year. He was a terrific offensive coordinator for the Lions, and then he brings that over to the Bears, and he's a terrific offensive designer and schemer and play caller with the Chicago Bears.

So we now have, like, years of evidence that this guy is a very, very bright offensive mind. You mentioned the humility with some of the other coaches, and I don't think you would look at Ben Johnson and say humility, when the guy's just like, screw you, Matt LaFleur, and ripping his shirt off in the locker room and all that. However, I do remember many times, I don't know if it's many times, certain times last year where he would get asked a question

in his press conference where some coaches would get pretty defensive. You know, I don't remember the exact example, but it's like, why didn't, you know, you kind of got away from the run in the fourth quarter there. And rather than snapping, like, there were times where he'd be like, you know what? Yeah, that was something that I was thinking about a lot last night. It kind of kept me up at night.

You're right on it with that. I should have done that. And I'm like, oh, I kind of, that shows me, you actually have confidence and you are like being accountable. And it's not just bravado of, oh, I'm holding Caleb Williams accountable in the media and then doing something different on the inside. So I'm in on him. I don't know if they're going to make that huge leap. You know, this year, we'll see where we are in August and September.

Obviously, they got some bounces last year. But if I'm talking about that whatever, the next five, 10 years, I think Ben Johnson, I'm buying early after one season that I think he's going to emerge. It's one of the best coaches in the NFL. What do you think? Is it a reach? Are you with me? What do you think about Ben Johnson? I'm with you. I had him number five. And it was the first big deviation from my standard rankings where you have to take track record and do account. If you're saying who's the best coach right now because I've gotten burned in the past. I know you're an Eagles fan. Chip Kelly. I was very excited when he had a good first year. I was like, the offensive revolution is here. And it turned out it really wasn't. So you have to have some humility as a ranker of these things.

but everything you said about Ben Johnson rings true to me. And the NFL has always moved quickly. Like it's always been a trends league. We're like as soon as one thing is here, it seems like it's gone tomorrow. But where it used to take place over five to 10 years, maybe four to five,

it feels like things are turning over in like two to three years cycles now. It's just moving amazingly quickly. And it's just become a league where you have to have the innovative energy. And we're like, we're seeing young guys routinely win Super Bowls now. Donald, Sean McVeigh, maybe still

more of the exception. Andy Reid has of course been doing it. But even Nick Siriani won a Super Bowl and you have to be on the cutting edge to win right now in the NFL. There's no question Ben Johnson is is an offensive play caller. Like I said with Sean McVeigh, I like the way

he blends like old school and new school principals. Because kind of old school the way he's a leader like you said where he doesn't care if the other team hates him. Like where we've gotten used to be and everyone buddy buddy, not just the players, but the coaches. I found that pretty fascinating. And, you know, an interesting way to lead a locker room too.

I just like, Ben Johnson, he could burn brightly. But I think that's going to include a lot of winning over the next four to five years. Maybe it's not a 10 to 12 year thing. I just think Ben Johnson's where that innovative energy is right now. All right, maybe what? I thought it was going to be more controversial. Pat and I are lying so far. I think there are going to be some where we disagree a little bit more on.

But go ahead. You have the fifth overall pick here, Pat. Who do you got? Well, this is what I felt a little uncertain on it. I had him fourth ahead of Ben Johnson actually. Dan Campbell where I just think interesting. I see I

have him quite a bit lower and I like Dan Campbell. Okay, make the case here for Dan Campbell. We've talked about a lot of like schemers right now like guys who whose main weapon is like the offensive scheme they bring or the defensive scheme they bring where it's still a culture league and Ben

Dan Campbell is the ultimate culture guy right now. Even last year or things weren't going great. It's not like the wheels came all the way off. It's not like he lost the locker. I mean, he was beating Ben Johnson in week 18, actually. So it doesn't seem like they gave up on him, even in a tough year.

Kind of like Mike McDonald, he admitted he didn't make the right higher offensive coordinator. He was decisive there. He's moving on, and he's not only a culture guy. You know, he's called his own plays several times. And just one thing that I always come back to with Dan Campbell's,

you know, Jared Goff was left for dead when he came to Detroit. This was supposed to be a long rebuild. For a guy to take with that situation not even really the own organization seemed to think he was going to win with this quarterback. And he made them such an instant, consistent

winner. I'm just willing to bet on Dan Campbell's, the leader of men archetype, which is not as common as it used to be, but it's still there. The Harbaugh's. And I just think Dan Campbell's maybe the ultimate leader right now. Hopefully he can hold his own

when it comes to scheme. And hopefully this roster stays good, but I still think Dan Campbell's a guy destined to at least get to a Super Bowl. Maybe he won't win one when there's so many elite coaches right now. I'm still just willing to bet on Dan Campbell and his leadership. Yeah, you brought up this point the last time you were on where we're like, the state of

coaching is pretty good in the NFL right now. Like when you're doing your column, it's probably harder to make fun of guys than it was, you know, 10 years ago, you could get more jokes off back then. And I had Campbell outside my top 10. And I, you know, I was like, I feel like I like Dan Campbell that

I'm usually defending Dan Campbell. I love his in-game management. He's just like, I don't care that the announcers are going to crush me. We're going to forward here. You know, we are going to be aggressive. That's going to be our mentality. He embodies that maybe more than any coach in the NFL. I do believe in the emotional intelligence and the authenticity.

Like, I feel like that hard, I don't know if you remember that hard knock scene where they're cutting guys at training camp. And I was just like, man, this guy's like, this is actually painting him. Like he's having real conversation. He's a teddy there. With these guys. Yeah. It's like you can't really fake it.

Every coach says, oh, it's the worst day of the year. You know, it's not true for many of them. They're like, all right, let's move on to the next thing. But I felt like he was really feeling that there. Now, here's my question with him, and I think the reason I bumped him down was the offensive coordinator thing, where he nailed it with Ben Johnson, and that's when they had their best chance to win a Super Bowl.

And since then, they're kind of cycling through guys. And now they're trying to figure it out with Drew Petzing, this year. Now maybe he'll hit on him and their window will be expanded and they'll be a Super Bowl contender. But that makes me just when it's the CEO type head coach, it's like that's such an important hire. Can you nail it? Can you build a pipeline? It's very difficult to do. And so I feel like we kind of have to see if he's able to do that or not. But you know, you can look at it and say, come on, he's only made the, they've only made the playoffs twice and five seasons. They haven't been to a Super Bowl. But in Detroit, with the history of that franchise,

I think they've had a winning record in four straight seasons. I was looking this up as preparing for the pot. They've literally never done that in the Super Bowl era before Dan Campbell. So I think you have to take franchise infrastructure into account with some of these. Where you're like, this coach is with this owner and this GM. This coach is with this owner and this GM. You know, there are different advantages and disadvantages depending on where you're play. So I don't hate that pick.

I think this next group is pretty bunched, but I had him a little bit lower. All right. My final thought on Dan Campbell is that he doesn't compound mistakes too. He moved on after one year from John Morton, of course. He did the same thing with Anthony Lynn. And maybe you could say this dysfunction or he's cycling through guys, but he found the right guy in Ben Johnson. I think he will probably find the right guy again to call his place.

All right, let's take a break. We come back and I will give you the sixth overall pick here. This episode is brought to you by Warby Parker. You know, I used to wear glasses, and I always hated the experience. My wife wears glasses now and it's the same thing. It feels like you need a full game plan before you leave the house. It's not a pleasant experience.

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I went with Andy Reid here, that he was a hard guy to place in this exercise compared to the one you did for NBC sports. because if you're going resume, you know, it's just like 27 years in the NFL, has been in the playoffs 20 times, just four losing seasons in 27 years, six Super Bowl appearances, three Super Bowls. I mean, it's one of the all-time great resumes in the NFL. He might end up being the all-time wins leader in the NFL. Having said that, he's 68 years old, and I do wonder a little bit what the next three to five years look like for Andy Reid.

I don't think last year was great. he brings in Eric B. Enemy, where I'm thinking to myself, Andy, you have your choice of kind of any offensive mind in the world right now. You know, can you go identify an up-and-comer who can really help you and bring new ideas and maximize what this next window looks like with Patrick Mahomes. And he just goes back to a guy he had on his staff before. So I think there's a chance that this is the beginning of the end for Andy Reid. And I don't mean they're going to go, you know, five and 12 or whatever.

just like, we're going to, every year, we're going to be like, huh, you know, does he still have his fastball? I think there's a chance that he doesn't. But at the same time, at this point in the draft, I was like, if I got an expansion team, like Andy Reid's going to bring me a certain, you know, level of competence and credibility where this thing's not going to be a train wreck. So I thought this was the, this was the spot where I decided to put it. Yeah, I did, I dropped Reed all the way to 10 just because, like you said, he's clearly a year to year proposition at this point. And With Reed, it's almost starting to mirror Bill Belichick, where I thought Bill Belichick would never get bad as an NFL head coach.

I thought he wanted to win so badly that he would continue to do whatever it took, even if that included, like going outside his coaching tree, making himself uncomfortable, changing up the way he drafts. He never did any of those things. He let himself get stale. And I thought that was very alarming with Andy Reed, where how did an offensive patch of Mahomes become unfund to watch? It's really rather astounding.

And how was there no fallback plan? They didn't even have a running game where Andy Reid has always had good running games. And then like you, I was alarmed when the solution it was to recycle a guy. You know, they kind of chased out of town before and Eric B. Enemy.

And just it seems like he's running low on ideas. And yeah, he's getting up an age. And I just don't know. It never seems like it's going to happen that someone's going to fall off an all-time great, but I guess that they do. And I do have the same worries that you do with Andy Reed.

while also still having, you know, it's Andy Reid. He can course correct. It was truly basically only one bad year, even though they've been getting less fun to watch. Or I wouldn't be shocked if Andy Reid bounces back and wins another Super Bowl this year. But yeah, he's no longer a guy I'm looking to, like maybe build an entire franchisor.

I would have be shocked either way. If you told me two years from now, he retires in these next two years don't go well or if they won a Super Bowl. So there's like a, you know, you have my home still. There's a lot of variance. I am leaning a little bit more towards he doesn't have his fastball,

but I still, you know, I still had to make him my pick there. All right, Pat, who do you have? Seventh overall pick in our head coach's draft. He was my sixth. He's our seventh. Someone who's never won a playoff game somehow. That would be Kevin O'Connell.

And I'm a little stunned. He's never won a playoff game. But I think, as we both kind of alluded to, maybe we haven't come out and said it, ideally you begin your franchise with an offensive play caller as your head coach. There are major exceptions that rule. Some of the all-time greats, of course,

are exceptions that rule. but everything's easier when your head coach is calling play as an offense because what always gets poached first, an elite play caller. They can't poach the head coach. Kevin O'Connell, whether it's been with retread veterans,

like unsung day two or three picks. He's been the quarterback whisper, except, of course, last year, the ultimate disaster year with JJ McCarthy, where they still somehow go nine and eight. That's what kind of stands out to me about last year. It's one of the craziest stats of the 2025 season.

It's like every time I go to the standing, page, I'm like, wait, I watched that season. How did they go nine and eight last year? Yeah, that is wild. And so basically, you look at the Vikings 2025 and you come to the conclusion, if Carson Wins could have started four or five more games, the Vikings probably make the playoffs. And that really speaks to how good Kevin O'Connell has been.

And with head coaches, you always have to handle your business on your side of the ball. Kevin O'Connell does that. Then you have to know who to trust the other side of the ball. He's found an elite defensive coordinator in Brian Flores. seems like he has good judgment, maybe not in the quarterback department, I guess, with J.J. McCarthy, but the good has so outweighed the bad

with Kevin O'Connell. I think he's one of the league's ultimate offensive play callers, and I would be very comfortable starting an expansion team with Kevin O'Connell's head coach. I'm with him number eight, so we're not far off there with where we had him. You mentioned it hasn't won a playoff game in four seasons, did go 13 and 4

with Kirk Cousins, did go 14 and 3 with Sam Darnold. I love the Flores point. We forget now. just like Flores, amazing defensive coordinator. Like, anybody could have hired him. He was what, the linebackers coach of the Steelers. Literally any franchise could have hired him at their defensive coordinator.

And O'Connell's the one who did so. So I think he's smart enough to do that. And I'm kind of bullish on them this year. As I was doing this exercise, I'm like, to your point with Carson Wentz, I'm like, if he has, you know, if Kyler Murray is like competent, I mean, he's won a lot of games

with that ideal quarterback situation. So I think O'Connell is a good one there. All right. Eighth pick here. Listen, I guess Pat's an ageist. You know, I like to think that, you know, Americans in their 60s can still, no, okay.

I'm going with another guy in his 60s. Sean Payton, I was like 62 years old, but then I'm like, he just literally engineered what would be like the same thing he would have to do for my expansion team. I mean, the Broncos were irrelevant with a bad quarterback contract on their books, and he turned it around to the point where they won, what was it, 13 games, whatever it was, last year.

But 18 seasons as a head coach, 11 playoff appearances, won a Super Bowl, four championship game appearances, 24 and 10 in Boe Nix's first two years here, won a lot with the Saints. So my line for Sean Payton, that, you know, if you're a consistent listener of this pod, you've heard me say it a million times, it's like he thinks he's God's gift to coaching football, but he is kind of like one of the best coaches. He's kind of right. I don't want to say he is God's gift to coaching football, but he's like, no, he's probably not far off from that

where I would just feel very confident that he could get my expansion team going in the right direction, whereas even if he wants to retire five years from now, we're still in a good spot there. So I've got Peyton next on my list. And the reason I still have faith in Sean Peyton, I had him next on my list too, where he did what Bill Belichick couldn't do

and what Andy Reid has struggled to do where Sean Payton is one of the greatest play callers in history of the league. But he sensed that he had become a liability. Who knows if he's going to actually allow Davis Webb to call plays for 17 games? I don't think he's right about that, though. So it is weird to me still, but we'll see. But to me, that was like the kind of move a lot of these aging coaches are unwilling to make

where he wants to win so badly. He's doing whatever it takes. And that's just something you don't see from a coach in his position very often. So that struck me as very bullish. And then, yeah, he's the first guy to win the AFC West since, Patrick Mahomes came the chief starter, other than the chiefs, I should say. And it's like no easy feat, even in a year where Patrick Mahomes gets injured, he's just clearly not resting on his laurels. He still has a burning desire to win. He's willing to do what it takes. And I would be very

comfortable with Sean Payton coaching my team, say the next four to five years. All right. Number nine, Pat, who do you got? Along those same lines as Jim Harbaugh, where he's won fewer than 11 games one time ever as an NFL head coach. He's won quite literally. everywhere he's been. I wrote my article. He won at the University of San Diego. Now he's winning with the NFL team that used to play in San Diego. And he did the same thing that Sean Payton did. Maybe I shouldn't give these guys too much credit for going outside their coaching tree. But it's just not something you see very often, including from Jim Harbaugh. He got to L.A. First thing he does is bring back Greg Roman. Then, to his credit, he's admitted that probably

wasn't the best choice. He went out and got the best offensive coordinator that was available this off season and Mike McDaniel. Another guy where, again, sometimes you can take this too far, but he's clearly willing to do what it takes to win. He's one of the great fundamental coaches in the history of football. Jim Harbaugh arrives somewhere

and they immediately become maybe the most fundamentally sound team, whether it's in their conference or in their league in the NFL. And he's always going to have that. He's an odd guy, but he's a great leader in his own way. And yeah, I was just so impressed

that he was willing, even at his age, even with his experience, even with his success, he's willing to bring in a guy outside his tree and Mike and Daniel. Especially this specific guy, you know, this perky guy with this personality. It's like, yeah, I agree.

That really showed me something because before that you could argue, like, all right, he's just bringing in his guy, you know, great, stick it with Greg Roman to a long type thing. That moved this off season, I thought definitely showed me something. You mentioned it, six NFL seasons has never had a losing record. His worst record is 8 and 8 and 8 and he's won 11 plus games every other season. He has the 10th best winning percentage in NFL history, which is like, whoa, I think that might surprise some people. It sneaks up on you, yes.

Yeah, it sneaks up on you. He did it in the college ranks as well. So I had him top 10. And even then, I wrote in my notes, I'm like, feel like I have him too low. I had him 10. You certainly could make the case that he should be in the top five there. So I think Jim Harbaugh is a good one. All right, I'm going to Green Bay with my next pick.

Pat, this one, I don't know. You know, I think they're, this guy, it feels like he's become very polarizing over the last year or so. And that's Matt LaFleur of the Green Bay Packers. Seven seasons, winning record in six of them, in the playoffs in six of them, two championship game appearances. The playoffs have been ugly. I will absolutely concede that. He has had moments in the playoffs. And that's when everyone's attentions on you, you know, like the, I don't want to say even the casual fan, but a lot of, you're watching your own team on a Sunday.

You're watching the other year the prime game. But once the playoffs come around, everybody is zeroed in on these teams and these coaches. And he's three and six in the postseason. And there have just been some head scratching moments with him there. So that worries me a little bit. But can he develop a young quarterback? Yes, he's done that with Jordan Love. The stuff he does when Malik Willis got in the game, I thought that was very impressive.

So if you're just talking like quarterback development, adjusting your scheme to the quarterback strengths and weaknesses, actually able to do that, which is maybe one of the most. precious skills of a coach in the NFL. I feel like he's got that. And I really feel like I could fix the other stuff. You know, I feel like I would bring him in. Hey, Matt, yeah, you know, you're not going to hire Jonathan Ginn as your defensive coordinator. Here's a list.

These guys are going to be much better. Hey, Matt, the end game decision stuff. Yeah, here. We're going to hire this guy. He's going to be in your headset. He's going to tell you what to do. I feel like if you kind of fix those two things, I like almost all the other stuff about Matt LaFloor.

So I have him here with my next pick. I had him at 12, so it's still a level of respect for me, but not commiserate with this record, I would say. And sometimes LaFleur, I think one problem is, unlike Kyle Shanhan, who's an elite play designer, and I would say a pretty good play sequencer, LaFleur is an elite play designer. I don't know if he's an elite play sequencer,

where it feels like they leave too many points on the table, especially in the second half of games, and where it's almost like sometimes a baseball thing. I know you're a baseball fan where sometimes you can say like the Milwaukee Brewers right now they have a great 162 game roster but can this roster really win in a

playoff series like where talent really takes over you kind of have to have like I hate the clichés like that killer instinct like how can you the past three playoff losses Matt LaFleur has had they've blown second half leads

like how can you let that happen over and over and over again in the playoffs and I feel like he leaves points on the table I feel like he doesn't call games too, like the goal is to maximize his points. It's like he's trying to maximize his efficiency, which I guess would normally maximize your points. But I want the play caller to call him play is like the goal is to score 50 points.

Obviously, you're not going to ever do that. I feel like he doesn't do that. And yet, like, the defense always collapses at all the most inopportune times. It's not his side of the ball, but maybe it's his judgment and who to hire. And I feel like, yeah, he's leaving meat on the bone. And I agree with you, with a few small tweaks, maybe a Matt LaFleure, truly vaults into that top four or five, whereas winning percentage really says he should be.

But he's got big changes. He probably still needs to make. Yeah, his winning percentage is not. So when you just go to the pro football reference page, like, man, Matt LaFloor. He's really doing good things in Green Bay. Okay, that was our top 10. Pat, now we move on to kind of the next tier here.

Who do you have at number 11? Well, I have this guy a little hard to evaluate right now, Mike Rable, because a guy who had been writing really high, and we don't have to get into the off-the-field stuff, but obviously that does. I bumped him. I'm a little concerned here, Pat. Okay, you kept him there.

It does change things because, like, what's something you don't want as, like, a leader? It's kind of getting, like, your aura of invincibility pierced. And I would say that's happened with Mike Rable where he always kind of just carried himself, and I think was regarded as a big, tough guy, kind of like an invincible guy, a guy who was just always tough in all the biggest moments,

like very canny and smart, too, not just a tough guy. Like, he's a rulebook maestro. He's the ultimate, he always gets the whole greater than the sum of its parts. I just worry if he, I don't know if he's like a wounded, is like a wounded asset right now. And just, but he's an ultimate players coach on top of everything I just said to. The players typically love him. You know, if he can rebound from a pretty ugly episode here,

I think he can still be an elite head coach. A guy whose team's always overachieved to the point where, what do you have to do to have an ugly loss in the Super Bowl? You have to make the Super Bowl. the team probably had no business being in the Super Bowl, but they got there because of how good of it, as a coach. I still believe in Mike Rable if he can get past the speed bump.

This is one where, again, the projection is different than the resume. I'm with you. If you looked at the resume, there's no doubt he's been a very good head coach. He was a very good head coach last year. I'm just, there's so much uncertainty. I'm the owner, Pat. I got to look out for all aspects of the organization. Okay, we got the PR team.

We got this. There's a lot. And cameras are following this guy around. And I don't know when it's going to end. It's the ultimate distraction this year. It's the ultimate distraction. I don't know what else is going to come out about it. I don't feel like we have the full story still.

So it's not just, you know, and this is all speculative, but it's not just like, oh, I can't have a head coach who is, you know, disloyal to his family. We have, you know, you and I have followed the league for a long time where we have looked at NFL head coaches who might be great at their jobs and might not, you know, you probably wouldn't be like, oh, that's who I want my kids to grow up as. I would actually say most.

the majority of head coaches we would probably put it. You have to usually have a screw or too loose to be an NFL head coach. Yeah. So it's just the spotlight on him now has me very concerned. Like how long is this thing going to actually follow him? And is his value as a head coach does it significantly outweigh the distraction that it's going to have with him as the head coach? Obviously there are levels to this.

If it was, you know, Sean McVeigh, I would be pretty inclined to say like, all right, it's worth it. Brable, I think, is a good head coach. I don't think he's at that level. It's not like he's giving you a big edge schematically. To your point, his whole thing is leadership, CEO type head coach, players coach. We're going to play hard.

And he's done a good job with all that stuff. But I had him all the way down to 17 because I'm a little nervous about maybe what the next three to five years could look like for Mike. To your point, you say, how long could this follow him? It could easily be the rest of his career. It could be. It too. He almost seemed like he's lost belief in himself.

You know, kind of understandably so. I mean, horrible lapse, ongoing lapse in judgment. Yeah. We'll see. It could be a career that ended sooner than it should have. It could be. It very well could be. All right.

When you said Harbaugh before, I wasn't sure which Harbaugh you're going to go with that because I had them right next to each other. You know, they were 9 and 10 on my list. I'm going with John Harbaugh here. Now, Jim Harbaugh, by the way, 62 years old, which I'm like, oh, I thought it was younger, you know, and John Harbaugh is 63, but 18 years. and I know people say, all right, well, they were about to fire him before he got Lamar Jackson,

which I understand that, but still, if you look at the whole resume, he did have a career before Lamar Jackson, and it did it, it was going in the wrong direction, but there was still, they won a Super Bowl, you know, before that era. So 18 years, 12 playoff births, a Super Bowl for championship game appearances. I really like his ability to identify coaching talent. You know, you've hit on that theme quite a bit here, but Mike McDonald's bringing him in to the Ravens, even the Todd Munkin move, like, that was kind of an unorthodox move at the time where I was like, this guy's been around for a while. Is this really the right coach? And they put up unbelievable numbers

the first year there with Todd Munkin. He's been willing to play a different way when they first had Lamar. And it was like, we are going to run the quarterback a lot. And not every, a lot of teams were doing that in the NFL at that time. Defensively, he's been willing to evolve with different coaches there. So we'll see what this chapter looks like with the Giants. I feel like the Giants media. is in love with the guy. But I understand why they're very excited because they haven't had a head coach that has looked this competent in a very long time.

So yeah, I've got him here at 12, I guess overall it is, with my pick. I had him at 11. As you may remember, the last time we talked, I dabbled a little bit in questioning the start he had gotten off to with the Giants. I thought he was a little too focused on, like, creating Ravens North. And especially with the coaching staff, I thought he's kind of like bringing in his buddies,

which is like you said... That makes me a little nervous. Yes. Didn't used to be who he was. And I didn't... He literally signed the fullback and the punter from the Ravens. I'm like, John, you know, like, I know you want to have some familiar faces around,

but like one of your things has always been, you're the guy comfortable with the new, because he's always been on the cutting edge of analytics. But I think they aced the draft. I really liked the Giants draft. I think he's getting more comfortable there. To your point on Lamar, by the way, but he's about to get fired,

got Lamar. One thing I always respond to that point when people make it you know how many coaches don't win when they have elite players? Like it's still a skill to have an elite quarterback and win. Not everyone does it. Harbaugh has always done it. And I think yeah, his draft of the Giants

made me more comfortable. I thought I was worried they were telegraphing they were going to force skill player picks to me which I thought it was kind of like a get rich quick scheme where this roster was. So I was very impressed they take the linebacker. They they take the guard and just kind of back to like methodical team building.

I'm feeling pretty good about John Harbaugh at the Giants, right. I like your coaching staff point though because I am nervous. Matt Nagy, Brian Callahan and Roman, I'm kind of like, wait a minute. Again, for what I just said, he's in the past, he's thought outside the box. It doesn't feel like he's doing that here. But let's give him, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt after 18 years. Now maybe, you know, six weeks into the season, might I be ripping him? Yes, it's entirely possible.

but for now in the off season, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. All right, let's take one more break. We'll come back. We'll zoom through some of these, but we'll... This episode is brought to you by Activia. You might already be eating yogurt, but not all yogurts are created equal.

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with AI embedded at its core, working across every system, and it's ready to go from day one, so you can hit the ground running. Bring it with SAP Grow, AI Cloud ERP for any size business. We'll see where we disagree with the rest of our draft team. All right, we're back here on the Ringer NFL show. All right, Pat, you're up. I think we're at the 13th overall pick. Who do you got? Who I had 13, Liam Cohen.

And you could argue he should be more in the Ben Johnson period, a very, very similar year to Ben Johnson last year. Actually, won more games than Ben Johnson did. I'm just, we have a little bit longer track record to go on to Ben Johnson. We have those Lions years, his play caller, which is only a few seasons. We got a good play calling year out of Liam Cohen, of course. in Tampa Bay.

It'd be a little more comfortable, fully believing in Ben Johnson, but Liam Cohen, I mean, passed every test as a first-year head coach with the Jaguars where it might sound silly to call this a micro-goal, but I feel like he aced his micro-goal

of fixing Trevor Lawrence, at least for a year, and then the macro goal, of course, always win divisions, make the playoffs, maybe make the Super Bowl. And I don't think anyone was expecting that in year one. So he achieved the first objective,

have to get the quarterback's career back, contract. And then I think to everyone's surprise you, greatly overachieve. They win 13 games. He kind of emerges as a leader too. Similar to Ben Johnson in that regard, we're kind of like a hardo in public and like creating like an

us against the world type atmosphere for the Jaguar. Or him against Trevor Lawrence was a fun early. You know, he's just yelling at it. He's just like making, you know, yelling at him. Like in between plays he's yelling at him. So yes, that edge, I don't think we were at least I wasn't that familiar with it. And so yeah, just another guy

where you view all like elite play callers kind of like analytics guy. He's like, no, he's also like a tough guy. And off to a great start, I would not be surprised at Liam Cohen that quickly ascends this list. I had him 13th on my board as well. Listen, his last two stops, he's gotten the most out of Baker Mayfield. We can't forget that, that, you know, Baker has had some ups and downs. That was his best year with Liam Cohen. And then he gets the most out of Trevor Lawrence here.

So again, that seems like it could be a special skill there for Liam Cohen. I do think he's got some volatility to him, you know, just some of the episodes. Oh, yeah. Maybe a little to Sihani to him who we haven't talked about yet. Yeah, which will, let's see, where are we going to get to him? But yeah, the thing with Sala, the stuff with Lawrence, but maybe that is just an edge. It just made me a little bit nervous and it's only been one year. I kind of want to see it a little bit longer.

But you're right. There's a chance if we did this next year, he would be way higher. So I had him at 13. Guy at 11, this is going to be my next pick here. Demico Ryan's is next on my list here, Pat. Three seasons made the playoffs every year with the Texans, has won a playoff game every year, but lost. Every year is kind of the same.

They make the playoffs, they win the wild card round, and they lose in the divisional round. Now, it's either that he hasn't been able to figure out the OC hire, or it's that CJ Stroud is just not going to be the guy we thought he was going to be after his rookie year. And I don't know which one of those it is. We'll see what it looks like this year, but D'Amico Ryans is going to give you a high-level defense that can compete against the best quarterbacks and the best offenses in the NFL.

It is kind of that Mike McDonald mold that we talked about very early in this episode. We've seen that consistently with Domeko Ryans in the playoffs against good quarterbacks. They seem to always give those guys a hard time. So I thought Domech O'Reynes is giving me a good floor. If we can figure out the quarterback OC situation, we actually have a chance to compete for Super Bowls with him as my head coach. He was my next guy to extremely high floor. It's just what's the ceiling. He's kind of like a mirror image to Kevin O'Connell,

where he's the defensive version of Kevin O'Connell. Unlike Kevin O'Connell, he hasn't found the right lieutenant yet on the other side of the ball. And maybe there is no right lieutenant with C.J. Stroud. Maybe he's just too volatile, and the project's going to fail. So they get another quarterback, but he's got to figure out his stuff on offense, because he's got to figure it out on the leadership front, and he's got to figure it out on the defensive coordinating front.

All right. 15th overall pick, Pat, who do you get this? This is the last guy. I guess we got two more here in the top half. Who else is in the top half of the NFL coaching ranks for our expansion team? Shane Steichen, where I feel like I'm kind of going out on a limb. That's who I have. 14th on my big board.

All right. Make the case for Shane Steichen. I feel like I can never decide, like, are we giving him too much credit for just keeping a dysfunctional franchise? on the tracks or does he deserve blame for just staying mired at 500. I really think it's the former

or this is such a tough situation. And then you have the change in ownership. But to be at 500 after what, three or four years, I forget if it's three or four, with that level of dysfunction and this poor of quarterback play,

I just think clearly he's a good leader. He's keeping the locker room reasonably together where the team's never falling apart. And to be at 500, where they're just not getting anything from the quarterback position. It's so impressive. It just seems like it's screaming out or if they can get anything at quarterback.

The Colts, they found their guy and are finally going to be back on the right track. But there's so many variables to play with Shane Steak and he's difficult to rank, kind of no matter what the parameters are of your head coaching exercise. The record's not good. 25 and 26.

No playoffs. Eight and nine wins every single year. Yet I'm with you. He got the most out of Daniel Jones for whatever, eight to 10 weeks last year, before that he got the most out of jail in Hertz when he was his OC. And I don't look at these Colts teams. I'm with you and think like, oh my gosh, they're underperforming their talent.

I'm kind of like, oh, my, last year, I'm just like, how is this happening? What is happening here? Yeah, with Daniel Jones. So I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If they have a down year here and he's fired and I'm another team, he's absolutely on my list of guys. I would say, let's bring him in. We can give him better infrastructure here and really give him a chance to succeed because

I do like the things he does. offensively. So I think that's a good pick there. All right. The 16th overall pick, Pat, I think it's time. Nick Siriani, which Eagles fans are going to be mad at me about. Half of them might be mad at me because you have him way too low. How can you have these other Schmohawks above him? Give me a break. Look at his resume. And half of them are going to go, how can you have him that high? He sticks. They doesn't have to do anything there. But the resume is kind of laughable, you know, that when you go to the pro football reference page and five seasons, five playoff births, two Super Bowl appearances, one championship,

a winning record all five seasons, the fifth best winning percentage in NFL history. Wow. And yet, I don't have any regrets about having him at 15. When I look at it, what's he bringing to the table schematically? Very little. They're scrambling to find a new OC every single year. I don't believe that he puts the coaching staff together. It's not like he went out and recruited Vic FNGO,

who has been a big reason for the team's success. That is done for him. His game management is okay, but I don't think it's anything that gives them like a huge edge in terms of culture. They're trading their best wide receiver. And he also didn't seem to see eye to eye with the legendary offensive line coach who left the team in the offseason. So I look at all those things.

And I'm just trying to be honest. I'm legitimately trying to be an owner and say, if I had my choice of any of these guys, would I choose him above these other guys? And I don't actually think I would. What do you think? No, he's just the classic, what does he do? And there's only one way we're going to find out.

And that's when he inevitably gets fired because I think even Howie Roseman has kind of bought into perception. I always make the comparison, the Eagles are so much more like a baseball organization than a football organization, where they're an outlier in the NFL where the single most important person in the franchise is the GM. is usually the coach or the quarterback, of course.

The Eagles are the rare team where it's unquestionably the GM. At least we think it is. Howie Roseman really benefits from this perception because if something goes wrong, then it's like, well, it's clearly to Siriani. You know, it's not the roster. And I just feel like we're not going to get an answer on Siriani until he's gone.

And then maybe like, oh, wow, we maybe it's like a Mike Tomlin thing. Like, we had no idea what Nick Siriani was doing to keep this locker room together to prevent it from getting even worse. You know, and I agree with you. he's got the kind of stuff where it's either intangible or it's just not visible to the public because he's not calling plays. Like, what is he really doing?

That's when you watch the Eagles games, like, what does he do? He's yelling at the crowd right now. I can see that. I'm not really sure what else I can see that he's doing. And we're not going to find out, I feel like until he's gone. And that might not be fair,

but that is life in the NFL. That's it. Listen, you can't really make the argument that another coach would have done better with the Eagles over the last five years because they won a Super Bowl and have been to two and they've been in the playoffs every year. But again, at the same time, like you said,

we won't know until he's with a different GM, a different, you know, he has to assemble the coaching staff, he has to find his own defensive coordinator. What does it look like? And I'm not confident he would have the same type of success at all with those other things. So that's why I've got him down here with the 16th pick. All right, 17. Pat, who do you got?

Kevin Stefanski, some people could say he could be way higher. Really? Wow, I have him way lower. Okay. So you're buying this to Bateski PR. Give me the cell here. I was hoping I was going to be low on him, to be honest. Because he gets so much credit as a QB whisperer. Is he actually a QB whisperer?

Because Baker Mayfield had success without him. Joe Flacco had success without him. To me, I was viewed as like he didn't solve QB in Cleveland. And maybe he didn't deserve the blame for the Deshaun Watson fiasco. But one way I look at that is he didn't have a forceful enough personality to convince ownership, to convince the front office not to do it. And I don't know that he felt strongly that they shouldn't do it. Yes, I agree.

And if he's really so good, why does he keep stripping himself of play calling duties? But then all those negative things aside, he did do things in Cleveland and quite literally had not been done since they were reincarnated as a franchise where they had never won 11 games. He did it twice. It's always so hard to know with these guys who are graded on a curve. like what was luck or what was like sheer force of skill in an impossible situation.

I am open the possibility that I had begun to underrate just how difficult it is to do what he did in Cleveland. So I think he was a worthy second chance guy. Like let's see what he can do and a slightly more competent organization. You know the Falcons are kind of dysfunctional

themselves. But I'd begun to sour on him by trying to maintain an open mind. Like listen, you go do that in Cleveland. You know, basically he did that in Cleveland. I'm interested to see how he does with a second chance. I thought he might have been the hardest guy on this list to rank, honestly, because I'm with you. I'm like, I kind of like him.

I kind of feel like his second act is going to be better than his first act, but one playoff win in six seasons, again, it was, you know, we always have to say it was Cleveland. He gives up on Baker Mayfield. They chase Deshawn Watson. I think he wanted Watson. I think everyone's going to try to separate themselves from that decision, but I think he thought, Watson was a, you know, off-field stuff aside.

Watson had been a excellent quarterback to that point in the NFL. He was a superstar. He clearly thought he was upgrading a quarterback. And then he gets the worst version of Deshaun Watson there. The offense, the last two years, has been 32nd in DVOA back-to-back seasons. I know the quarterback situation's bad, but can you get me to like 27th if you're a great, you know, offensive coach? He couldn't do that. So I think he has a chance, but I do think his reputation probably outpaces his actual accomplishments.

this point in his career. So let's see what it looks like for Stefanski. I had him outside my top 20 just when I was looking at kind of ranking these guys on my board. All right. 18th overall pick. Our first guy who is a first time head coach. So I'm going out on a limb here. I think Jesse Minter is going to be pretty good.

Let's see if this looks stupid a year from now, three years from now, five years from now. We've never seen him be a head coach in the NFL. I like that he worked his way up. You know, he goes Indiana State, Georgia State. and he's a defensive assistant. It's not like he was just somebody's. Now, he was somebody's son because his dad was an assistant coach

for those Chip Kelly teams. So it goes, of course. Listen, that's how the NFL works. Whatever. You know, he's worked with both the Harbaas who we've already had on this list to have very different personnel, different way of doing things,

but I think that's a pretty good coaching tree. And it was very good with his job with the Chargers the last two years. So I think Minter has a chance to be very good, and I'm going to go out on a limb and take him over some of these other guys who already have resumes. I had him, quote, only 20th,

but I had him in the same range. And just very bullish on too. Like the other brothers Harbaugh, disciple, if you want to call him that, he's just been like McDonald's just been lights out everywhere he's gone. And I know he's young, but he's been a quick riser for reasons

because everywhere he's gone, he's had success. And he's really well positioned hit the ground running with the talent base they have with the Ravens. And to me, he's the archetype of what you look for in a first-time head coach.

I know he's not an offensive play caller, but you know he's handling his side of the ball. He seems to have some of that innovative energy we've talked about where the Chargers defense was really, really good the past two years. And he just seems like kind of the right guy at the right time for the Baltimore Ravens. I love the Jesse Mentor hire.

I think he could be skyrocketing up this list if we did it again next year. All right, number 19. Who do you got, Pat? Kellyn Moore, and he was one of last year. Oh, we disagree on this one, too. I have him. I have been my bottom five here, Pat.

make the sell on Kellynmore. I could see why you'd have him in your bottom five. I don't know if he's a one-trick pony. His thing is, let's play fast on offense. Like, is that his one trick? I don't know. But he was one of last year's biggest overachievers. He has kind of quietly had success everywhere he's gone.

Maybe with the exception of the Cowboys, maybe they should have been better near the end. But who knows what's real there with the meddling you get from the ownership and the front office. And that's just what I want to know about Kellyn Moore because he's being great on our curve because they had truly non-existent expectations for the Saints last year,

and he did clear them. Does he have a second act? Because now there are expectations. Okay, yeah, you're doing your play fast thing. Are you going to be able to adjust and the league adjusts? But he did much better than I was expecting as a first-time head coach for the Saints.

And he's another guy where I'm open to seeing what the second act is for Kellyn Moore. I'm open to it. Now we're at the area of the list where these guys, a lot of them, don't have lengthy resumes. So you're kind of just, again, it's just projecting. Who do I kind of like here?

I feel like everywhere he's been, there are two sides. Like you actually don't know whether he did a good job or not. Like the Cowboys, it's like, did he do a good job? They kind of let him go. The Chargers is like, did he do a good job? Everybody kind of got fired after that. The Eagles, it's like, did he do a good job? They won the Super Bowl, but everyone hated the offense for like 15 weeks.

I know. It's complicated. Did he do a good job coach? He has that title. And we still don't know. I'm with you. Maybe he will be good. They were 6 and 11 last year.

But you're right. The vibes now are better with the Saints than I thought they were going to be. Maybe they got something in Tyler Shuck. Maybe he can develop him. And let's see, I just didn't feel as confident with him over some of these other guys. But I like the swing there. But we are on opposite sides of maybe the belief in Kellyn Moore here going forward. I took another coach who, listen, the resume is not great. But I went with Dave Canales.

It's sort of my version of Kellyn Moore, probably Pat, where I'm like, all right, it kind of hasn't happened for him yet. but I feel like they're a little morsels that there's something there. You know, they made the playoffs last year. I know it was the NFC South. I get it. He's 13 and 21 in two years. I feel like that roster has just like, look at the depth chart these last two years. And you're just like, how is anyone winning any games with this depth chart?

So it feels like he can do some things offensively. I don't know how much he's limited by, you know, some of Bryce Young's shortcomings. He seems like a reasonable guy. I just wrote I want to see more, I think he has a chance. It's not the strongest endorsement, but that's kind of where we are on this list. That's the only place you can be with him, but I'm in the same spot as you where I feel like it's notable

that the bottom hasn't fallen out with the Carolina Panthers. Like you said, the talent just hasn't been there. I know they made the playoffs with a losing record. The defense did get a lot better last year. We have seen incremental improvement from Rice Young. It's possible it's a hopeless situation because Dave Tepper seems to be one of the more meddlesome owners in like all of North Americans.

sports. But I don't want to sound like I'm damning with faint praise, but I think it is noteworthy that he's had any success whatsoever with Dave Conallis. And I'm interested to see, like, you know, he can maybe continue to gain cachet with ownership. I'm like, guys, just trust me, let me do this my way. We're going to have success. And he's a guy, maybe the right track doesn't even exist in Carolina, but I think he's maybe found it. And I am very fascinated to see where Dave Conallis's career goes from here. All right. Who you got? Who's next? What are we on 22, I want to say? Thereabouts.

I should add Clint Kubiak probably ahead of Kellanmore. Or 21, sorry, go ahead. Is that too? Yeah. Clint Kubiak, who's never coached a game. Clint Kubiak, you don't really have to wonder how he got a head coaching job. His last name helps. But like nepotism.

If we threw out the Nepo baby, this would have been a 25-minute podcast. So we mentioned them. I like mentioning them. You like mentioning them. But what are we going to do? We don't make the hires around the end of the job. We do not. Nepotism in the NFL, it gets you.

you in the door. Success is usually required to sustain him. Maybe not in Brian Sean. I don't know. But the best system in the NFL, what is it? It's the Mike Shanahan system. There's so many different variations of at this point. There's the Kyle Shanahan variations. There's the Gary Kubiak

variations. He's the latest, greatest version of this offense. He has all the best offensive mentors. He clearly knows how to put it into practice if he's winning a Super Bowl with Sam Darnold. And again, like I said, in a league where the cycles, I feel like it's been condensed from five to 10 years to two to three years.

He's running maybe the best version of the best offense in the league right now. And maybe that will go awry as a head coach. Maybe it'll go awry for this tortured franchise and the Raiders. I thought he was by the book higher by the Raiders, though. And I have very fascinated to see where Clint Cooby-at goes in Vegas. I had him a few spots lower, but again, we're at the point where we're going off just, I'm not sure. Let's see what this guy has.

So I'm not saying he's going to stink. you know, like he did a great job last year with the Seahawks with Donald. And maybe it'll work with the Raiders. Maybe, you know, does he have kind of that, you know, second pitch, that third pitch? I think those are some of the things we have to see with Mendoza. Can he develop a rookie quarterback? Can he be successful in that culture and environment, which is going to be very different than Seattle? Maybe. I'm with you.

I was a good hire. I would be excited if I were a Raiders fan. I just had him a few spots slower because with the 22nd overall pick, I had the guy, you just took a shot at Pat. I'm going to make the case that Brian Schottnheimer did a good job last year and might actually be a decent. I'm not going to say great. We're at this point in the draft, but might actually be a decent head coach specifically

in the environment that he's in. So he goes 7-9 and 1 last year. Now, the offense was very good last year. Very good. He brought in the Clayton Adams from the Cardinals and Schottenheimer's designing the offense. I like that offense. I thought that offense worked well. George Pickens. If you told me George Pickens was going to go from Mike Tomlin to Brian Schottenheimer and have a career year, I would have been like, give me a break. I don't think that that's going to happen. That is what happened last year with George Pickens. He screwed up the defensive coordinator hire with Matt Iber Fluse. However, to the point you've made with some other coaches recently, they made it change. They're not sticking with it another year just to keep his buddy around. They hired Christian Parker from the Eagles, which I thought was an inspired hire. The guy who's worked with Vic Vanjee.

at various stops. So I like what they did, a defensive coordinator. It's not his, it's not Brian Schenheimer's fault. They traded Michael Parsons before the season. Like if they just didn't make that Michael Parsons trade last year, they might have been a playoff team last year. Like that's a big thing to have happened right before the season starts. So by the way, one of the five best non-quarterbacks in the NFL is not going to be

on our team this year, have fun with it. So I feel like he's got a little bit of the old school approach of his dad, mixed with some of the Pete Carroll energy from Seattle. Like it kind of seems like the players genuinely do like him. And he's not just kind of this, you know, hardheaded like his dad. Like he has that part of him, but he's also got this other part of him. I'm kind of bullish on, again, in this situation, in Dallas, where it's very unique.

You've got Jerry Jones. You've got a lot of loud voices, a lot of attention. In that situation, I'm changing my tune from a year ago when I thought it was a terrible hire. I actually think he might be okay and a decent head coach in that environment. Am I crazy? That is, that's just the only thing with Schaenheimer is I feel like very clearly he's being graded on a curve

because I think all of us expected him to probably be the worst coach in the NFL. And he very clearly was not even close to the worst coach in the NFL last year. I just couldn't decide when I was doing my rankings. Like is that the only reason I'm feeling good about him because like he cleared the lowest possible bar.

He's someone or I really need to see him do it again. But he's also somewhat that proved the value of experience. I think 25 years as an NFL assistant, you could tell that last year where he was kind of emptying his book of tricks. Now, did he do it all in year one? Like, is he, will there be a second act? I'm using that phrasing him, but can there be a second act of Brian Schottenheimer?

Because kind of like Helen Moore, the expectations, I guess the expectations are always kind of high in Dallas. But, you know, amongst people like us who fancy ourselves, like complex NFL thinkers, I had very low expectations for Brian Schottenheimer. he blew by those. He's kind of the ultimate. All right, let's see you do that again. And what has now become

one of the hardest places to coach, the Dallas Cowboys, because you're just an extension of the owner. It's a good point, and it's actually a reminder to me that this is an expansion team, so I'm not, it's not Jerry, it's not, but still, I don't know.

I feel like there's a profile there that maybe could work. Maybe I'll look very stupid at the end of next season. All right, 23. We're at the bottom 10 here. Pat, let's see. Who do you got?

Who's the 23rd overall pick? Who do I have next? tier. I think it was Dan Quinn, which I think that's what I've got. I was looking at my real ranking. Sorry, not Dan Quinn. My next guy that I ranked was Robert Sala actually. I'm wishing I had ranked

ahead of Kevin Stafansky now. Stafancy is the first one where I regretted it off the bat. I'm like, why did I have Stafansky there? Sala was a retread who didn't get nearly as much of attention as John Harbaugh and Kevin Stafansky. And I think maybe he deserved it where he's not

the first guy to get broken by the New Jets. He absolutely will not be the last. Adam Gase literally just got back into coaching after getting fired by the Jets. That's how long it took him to process what happened with the Jets. This is the second time Adam Gase has come up in a podcast I've done this week, Pat, because someone said Carl Anthony Towns took smelling salts, you know, before the Nick Sixers game yesterday. And anytime I hear that, I'm thinking of the Adam Gase cryptos. What an upset.

Adam Gage is getting a lot of pub. on the Ringer podcast network here, but sorry, go ahead. No, Adam Gay, he'll be a legend forever for a variety of different reasons. But Sala, he gets fired by the Jets, he goes back to the 49ers, immediately kind of puts his coaching career back together, duct taped and glued together a defense that was ravaged by injury. I think no one really questions his leadership ability. I think he's a really great defensive coordinator.

He made the right offensive coordinator higher in Brian Dable, at least for short-term purposes. Maybe. I'm not on board with that. It could be a short-term solution. But Sala was a guy I thought deserved better in New York. You don't ever get better, though, when you're the head coach of the Jets. I'm very interested to see Robert Sala take two in Tennessee.

I was thinking the best version of Sala would be like a poor man's version of Domeco Riance, I think. Yeah, that's not that level of defensive coach. I don't think he's nearly as good as D'Amico Rines, but he has been a good, very good defensive coach, even with the Jets. Like you mentioned, with the Jets, with the Niners. He's done it at multiple stops there. So I think that there's a chance that this works. I mean, it all depends on whether they develop Cam Ward.

If he's really good, then again, now that Texan's comparison might be apt. If they can build up that defense and now you have a young quarterback who's pretty good. So I had him a little bit lower, but not that much lower. I'm not that bullish on Sala, but I see a scenario where it potentially could work out. He can maybe be the poor man's Dan Campbell. Maybe let's aim for that with Robert Sala. I know his defensive mind, Campbell's offensive. Some similar qualities, I feel like for Dan.

I'm going to go with another bald defensive coach, which you had, I think, in your article, you said, but you bumped him. I'm going to go with Dan Quinn. It doesn't feel great. I'm not going to tell you it feels great. It's just, you feel like you're limited with the ceiling with Dan Quinn, but eight seasons, six in Atlanta, two in Washington, three playoff berths.

It's been to the championship game twice in eight seasons. Like, that's pretty good. has been in the Super Bowl. Once I just see a solid, competent coach. I wrote down, Pat, the modern day version of Ron Rivera. That's kind of how I feel.

Yeah, he is very similar to Ron Rivera. Everybody likes, people like him. They're kind of like, oh, this guy's such a nice guy. He's such a great guy. But you're like,

okay, but is he actually a good coach? I'm not sure he really gives you a big edge anywhere, but I think he'll set a certain floor. And I do think this is an interesting season for him. They change both their coordinators. They're going and kind of,

drastically different directions. Do these moves pay off? Or is he out of a job next season? I think that's the question with Dan Quinn. It is kind of the opposite, though, of like, you know, Kyle Shanahan. We're, hey, DQ, you want to go play around a golf? Yeah, he's like, cool, man, I'm in. Hey, you want to go get a beer?

DQ? Yeah, he's probably a great hang. And so maybe if you're at this point in the draft and you're an owner, you're like, I might as well get someone who I like hanging out with. To your point, he's universally loved. He got an A plus, I believe, in the NFLPAs. survey. He's a genuine players coach. I copied something I had from my article, though, where I feel like last year, Dan Quinn, it was just a reminder of kind of the limits of

personality-based coaching and a league where it comes down to personnel, of course, but it also really comes down to play calling. But to your point, I just, he doesn't give you an edge in those departments. But there is something to be said for being a coach that players actually want to play for. And even as the Cowboys defensive coordinator, where he may be overachieved, players love playing for him. So yeah, yeah, if you've got like the 20, fifth pick, you can maybe do worse than Dan Quinn. All right. Who do you got, Pat? Who is next on

your list? We're down to the final eight here. No one's going to be happy with it, but Mike McCarthy and you're starting an expansion team. Maybe you're not really thinking that long term. You're just thinking someone make us respectable. That's what Mike McCart. He won 61.8

percent of his games in Green Bay. He won nearly 60 percent of his games in Dallas. He won 13 games back in 2007. He's won 12 games at least three times this decade. Clearly he can coach. Clearly it burns out quickly where he's kind of like,

he's almost like an English soccer style coach where you're not bringing him in there for 10 to 12 years at this point. You're bringing him in like a three to four year job. Hopefully you can make a Super Bowl in that time period. Like he's not very inspiring. He'll wear out as welcome. But he should be an NFL head coach. He's down this low

because yeah, he's not really long term solution. Unbelievable description. I feel like, Pat, there's a case, and I agree with, you know, pretty much everything you said there. I do feel like there's a case where if a member of the McCarthy family is listening to this, they're like, screw you guys. Like, there is a case that he belongs significantly higher, much higher. And over some of these other guys. You made the point. 18 seasons in the NFL.

He's made the playoffs 12 times. He's got a Super Bowl win. He's been in the championship game four times. in his career. There is a case. I don't want to make it. I'm not going to make it because I don't believe it. You don't want to make it.

You don't believe it. There is a case that Mike McCarthy is actually underrated. Now, I don't know if you saw when John Harbaugh got hired, there was kind of a graphic going around that like, is there really a difference between John Harbaugh and Mike McCarthy? Look at these resumes. I would argue that Mike McCarthy has been blessed with great quarterback play throughout the entirety of his career.

Brett Farr, Aaron Rogers, and Dak Prescott, and that now he is not going to have that luxury with the Pittsburgh Steelers. And to his credit, he won a lot of regular season games with those guys. To your point, it didn't always last a long time, but he won a lot of regular season games, winning percentage over 600 for his career. I don't think it's going to go well here in his next tenure. And so if I'm an expansion team, or if you're the Pittsburgh Steelers,

and you have an uncertain quarterback situation. 62-year-old Mike McCarthy, who I don't think is going to be an innovator or have a lot of new ideas, that's not the guy I want. So I did have him actually next on my big board, so I would have taken him where you took him there because I think the resume is strong enough,

but I don't think either of us would be that excited about it. No, he's a resume-based start throw. Yes. Maybe actually is good, you know. Maybe I should consider the possibility Mike McCarthy's a great head coach. Let's see. If he doesn't,

in Pittsburgh with that quarterback situation, I'm willing to change my tune if we do this exercise again. We'd have to maybe be talking in the Hall of Fame for Mike McCarthy. If he goes like 11 and 6 this year. Settle down. I know it's laid into the podcast. I know we've been talking for a while, but settle down over there.

Thank you. I've got, this next guy is also kind of polarizing. Zach Taylor of the Bengals. He was my next two. He was? Okay. All right. So this is my next pick. And again, if you're a member of the Taylor family and you're listening to this, like, come on, he's done a lot more than some of those other guys, seven seasons.

Now, he's only been in the playoffs twice, but he's been to the championship game both those years and to the Super Bowl one. So he's five and two in the playoffs, Zach Taylor, which is that a Joe Burroughs stat? Is that a Zach Taylor stat? Is that a Jamar Chase stat? Is that a Louana Rumo stat? You know, we can certainly have that conversation, which I think is the reason why we have him at this spot. They've now gone three straight seasons without making the playoffs. Now, the for Zach Taylor would be the offense is pretty much good whenever Joe Burrow is healthy. I know some people are like, I don't like the scheme. They just let Joe Burrow sit in shotgun and take shots on the outside. It's like, that's actually worked very well for them. That hasn't been the problem.

The problem has been that their defense has stunk and that Joe Burrow hasn't been healthy. So the case against Taylor would be he's getting carried just by the talent of Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase, and T. Higgins, and he doesn't really give them an edge anywhere. So I would have been a a hurry to hire him. I don't think he like stinks. I just think he's kind of clumped in with a lot of these middle tier coaches that we've talked about here. You hit the most important point with Zach Taylor.

I think we would know like if a second gear was coming, like he's never going to be a special head coach. But you just don't take it for granted that you will have success, even with elite players. And when those guys are healthy, he knows to basically just get out of the way and let them score a million points. And anytime Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase are healthy, they score a million points. So he's not holding back the offense. And maybe he's not propping up anything else,

but maybe it's not his fault. It's a dysfunctional front office and ownership group. Zach Taylor, I think, is certifiably not a special coach. But certifiably, they score a million points when they're healthy. And some people, you cannot take that for granted. Like, that doesn't just happen. And he does deserve really some credit for the offense stays on time when it's healthy.

Like, think about this. If he had Howie Orozman as his GM, and the organization got him Vic Fangio as his defensive coordinator. I mean, we might be talking about his pro football reference page. They might have a couple Super Bowls already. So again, the infrastructure, what each coach is being asked to do,

where he's given help or he's not given help, matters a lot in this exercise. All right, we're down to the final six, the audience wondering, who's going to be last in this draft? Is it going to be my coach? No, I think it should be my coach. All right, Pat, who do you have here next?

Next I have Todd Bowls, and I make a comparison for Todd Bulls that a lot of times people make to quarterbacks where he's not going to be the reason you ever win a Super Bowl. But I think I've seen enough that with a talented enough roster, you could win a Super Bowl with Todd Bowls. And I think he's kind of allowed himself to evolve on offense. I know he's a defensive-minded head coach, but he had a reputation as like the most stodgy, conservative guy you could ever have.

And when he had Tom Brady, I think maybe it opened his eye, to the way modern offensive football needs to be played where he's a pretty solid defensive coordinator. Despite people's belief, he never held the offense back. Is he a special head coach? It doesn't really seem like it. But in the right situation,

I think you could win a Super Bowl with Todd Bowles. Maybe that's damning with faint praise. But a solid coach, never going to be anyone's first choice. But yeah, if you're down to, like, say, your 25th choice, you might be pretty happy with Todd Bowles as your head coach. Yeah, I couldn't decide. I'm like, do I

have him too low? He's a hard one to rank always. I'm not sure that the guys we've picked over him are definitely better choice. Yeah, this is just a lot of these guys are clumped together. He's got a 452 winning percentage for his career. But to your point, four of those seasons where with the New York Jats, where literally nobody has won.

So I can't count that really against him. He's had three playoff appearances in four seasons with the Tampa Bay Bucks. Now, only one playoff win, Pat, in eight seasons. as a headcoat. So that's not great. I do feel like he can fluster a certain level of quarterback and offensive coordinator. Like we've seen that in Philadelphia when the Eagles playing them.

However, I don't know that I trust him against the, it's kind of the opposite that we mentioned with McVeigh where I'm like, McVeigh, I think him against Fangio, him against Mike McDonald's. He's going to have something for him. It's going to be a fair fight. I feel like Bowles gets exposed a little bit when he goes up against that level of offense sometimes, whether it's in the playoffs or the regular season. Now, there's a case that he's got kind of a good eye for offensive coordinator,

tell it when you look at Dave Canales and then Liam Cohen. But is that true or not? Because they had Josh Grisard last year. They let him go. And now they're bringing in Zach Robinson, who I don't know about you. I didn't watch that Falcons offense last year. I was like, oh, who's scheming this bad boy up? Go get me that guy.

So I'm a little concerned. I don't think the arrow is pointing up for Todd Boy. He's 62 years old. I would take him as my defensive coordinator, if that's kind of what happens with him, you know, after he's done in Tampa. But I would kind of shoot higher if I were an expansion team. I would as well.

I would as well. But that's the point of the draft that we're in here. All right. My next one. A first time head coach. Todd Monkin here. Pat, 11 years as an NFL assistant, seven as an OC.

I was thinking about what, how does this work for Todd Monkin? We're like, oh, good hire, Cleveland. Is there a Bruce Ariens case for Todd Munkin, Pat? Is that how you wrote down? I wrote down Bruce Ariens for Todd Munkin. Like, this could be the great outcome here is that you get a lifetime of experience coming together for a first-time head coach and their 60s. And a guy who's always been pretty successful in whatever his role was,

even as like the Southern Mississippi head coach. And it will a lifetime of experience come together. he's been winning the off season. I really liked his quotes. You know, like he seems like he's ready to lead. We know we can call an offense. We know there's a reason he was available. It's like no one else was really beaten down the door to hire this guy.

So it's a long shot bet by the Browns, but in terms of long shot bets is maybe one worth taking. Where interesting resume has had recent success calling plays. And yeah, I actually liked the Todd Munkin-hire, despite it being kind of strange on its face. Yeah. He's been good at the job, like you said, he's been good at the jobs he's been asked to do.

He just hasn't been asked to do this job. Bruce Ariens was 61 when he got his first head coaching job, and he ended up having a 624 winning percentage with two different franchises and won a Super Bowl. So at least Monkin brings something to the table. You feel like whatever juice there is to be squeezed with the offensive talent with the Cleveland Browns, you feel like he will be able to get that out of him.

I'm not bullish that he's going to be Bruce Ariens, but that would be the case where this works out. All right, we're down to the final four here. And I will tell you that the guys we have left here, we're on the same page because the guys we have left on my personal big board, they rank 28, 30, 31, and 32. So the only guy that's been picked so far, I had Kellyn Moore in my bottom four,

but I didn't feel that strongly about it. But we have a very similar, it feels like, bottom four on our big boards. Who do you have next here, Pat? By the, I had Shottie 32. How dare you? Unbelievable. Yeah, who's going to do that?

Who would do this out there in the Dallas Cowboys? But as we discussed, he's... That's true. That's true. He's not the worst coach in the NFL. I believe in you. We have established that. The beginning of my bottom four was Joe Brady.

He's a Kingsbarian hire to me where I know he was Josh Allen's offensive coordinator. I kind of just feel like this is happening still because of what he's, did in college. Like, remember what he did with Joe Burrow and LSU. And it's kind of this never-ending belief that this guy oversaw an historic offense. So there's got to be something there, right? And I'm not saying there's nothing there, but who saw Joe Brady's work as an NFL assistant and

thought this guy's got to be a head coach. And maybe they'll be like Zach Taylor. A good, outcome for him probably would be Zach Taylor 2.0. The offense scores a million points. Hopefully someone else takes care of the defense. Maybe they get to a Super Bowl. He just didn't strike me as someone, especially in like a win or else situation that the Buffalo Bills are in, the kind of hire he wanted to be making. But it seems like he's been coasting on his reputation

for a long time. Maybe he can have some success with it. But I kind of think that's the situation with Joe Brady. It's like if your claim to fame is that the offenses were good when you had two of the best five quarterbacks walking the planet, I kind of need to see more, you know?

Yes. All right. Yes. Joe Burrow in college with a loaded LSU team, you did a great job. All right, yeah, Josh Allen, literally every offensive coordinator that has coached Josh Allen has produced the top five offense with the bills. Ken Dorsey got fired, but he did. Brian Dave all left to be a head coach and didn't look like he was up to the challenge

with the Giants as an offensive coach. But you know what? He looked great with Josh Allen. So just why would it be any different with Joe Brady? Now, having said that, Joe Brady and the bills could win the Super Bowl this year like that, you They're on probably anyone's list of like five to eight teams that could actually win the Super Bowl. So I'm not telling you he's going to be a train wreck and drag him down. It's kind of like, where is he going to give them an edge?

You know, because I know the offense is going to be good. It's got Josh Allen. It's the same scheme. It's got a good offensive line. And the weapons are better than they were last year. I know the offense is probably going to be top five. And if your offense is top five, you're probably going to win 11 plus games, which is what happens when Josh Allen's your quarterback.

And maybe I will give him this, the hipsters love Jim, Jim Leonard, Pat, as the defensive coordinator. I don't know if you've been listening to him or if you have a view on Jim Leonard, but at least it's like, all right, this seems like it could stink. I don't know, but it seems like there's at least some optimism by the hipsters that this guy's going to be a difference-making defensive coordinator. If that's the case, and maybe Joe Brady's pretty good at the game management or whatever, then I could be like, all right, there was more to you, Joe Brady than I gave you credit for.

As someone used to be hipster adjacent, I like to hear, the hipsters are approving the Jim Leonard higher. And I think Joe Brady, to put a fine point on it, it could work. I feel like the bills should have aimed higher and could have aimed much higher and come away

with the more impressive. Why aren't the bills? Why isn't Jesse Mentor the head coach the Buffalo bills right now? But it's not, it wasn't so bad of a move that we could sit here today and say this has no chance of working. It should be, we should have something better to say about who's coaching the Buffalo Bills. And I feel like that's

there is to say about Joe Brady. There are some amazing quotes that like the team social media accounts would not put out, but I personally am appreciating them, you know, from, from you, Pat, as we get to this point in the draft. All right, we're down to three. We got Aaron Glenn, Mike LaFleur, and Jeff Halfley. We have the same guy. I have Jeff Halfley here with the 30th overall pick. 22 and 26 at BC. Two years is the Packers defensive coordinator. One was good. One was mediocre. Hired Bobby Sloick as his OC. Eh, you know, I'm just kind of like, like maybe it'll work out,

but I'm not convinced it's going to work out for Jeff Hathley. His signature achievement as a head coach, I say this is a laugh line. But, I mean, he won the 2023 Wasabi Bowl at Fenway Park. And I don't really, I don't get the thought. He was fine as the Packers defense coordinator, but he was just fine. He's clearly someone where this is like, like a league circles reputation kind of higher where there's a reason he was bandied about as a head coaching candidate. He's impressing the right people.

Maybe he has intangible qualities that are hard for me as like an outside observer to pick up, you know, here sitting in my computer, where it could be in 10 years from now, like, wow, yeah, the league insiders were really right about Jeff Halfley. But I just don't see what the league insiders. It could be that Stephen Ross just read one NFL.com article about the best candidates in the head coaching candidates. and went with him. All right, here we go. Big decision. It's up to Pat.

We are down to 31 and 32. We have Aaron Glenn and we have Mike LaFleur. It's Pat's pick. Whoever he doesn't pick, I get with the 32nd overall pick. Who is, here, do it this way. Who is the least attractive? Sorry, this feels mean, but we got to do it this way. Who is the least appealing head coaching candidate for an expansion team right now?

Pat, this would be the 32nd pick. Who would you have? My line on Aaron Glenn is this, where you could very easily say, what was he supposed to do with that team last year? And my only answer would be not that. Just anything other than that. Like, I know it's the New York Jets. I know this roster was talent Marin.

I know they traded away. There are two defensive players. What was he supposed to do? He wasn't supposed to do that. He wasn't supposed to be a defensive-minded head coach where the defense collapses. He wasn't supposed to create a viral stat or the first defense not to intercept the past

since the 1930s, since Franklin Roosevelt was president. And it was a hopeless situation where he did not rise above his hopeless circumstances. And he's got to fail to every test, you know, like it didn't seem to be the world's best leader, definitely failed schematically, seemed to have no savvy with the media,

which you might say, why does that matter? But it definitely does matter because perception very quickly becomes reality. The media is not going to play nice with him. They're basically frothing at the mouth for him to fail in the Jets media. And maybe he learned a lot, talking about a trial by fire. I saw nothing in Aaron Glenn's 2025, though, that suggests he'll be a head coach this time next year.

And I would not be starting my expansion team with him. So you're going Mike LaFleur over Aaron Glenn. That's right. All right. His official pick there. I actually had him reverse. So there you go, Jets fans. You know,

puff your chest out a little bit. Not everyone had him 32nd. I had him 31st there. Aaron Glenn, yeah, you laid it out well. And not only how that season went, Pat,

but this off season with like, all right, are we firing our OC? Yes. Wait, do we have a plan for replacing him? Yes, it's Frank Wright, who we kind of thought

his days of coaching in the NFL, we're going to be over. Okay, well, what are you doing a defensive coordinator? All right, Wink Martindale. We're going to go. He plays the kind of defense I want to play.

And McMartin-Dill's like, wait, I thought I was going to call the place. And Aaron Glenn's like, nope, that's my superpower. I'm going to call the place. So that ended up being a mess. The game management. I mean, I have the vivid memory. And I can't remember anything that happened last year. But Garrett Wilson yelling at him during that London game that I was for some reason watching live here on a Sunday morning.

And Kurt Warner's like, what are they doing with this clock game management at the end of the half? So special teams was very good, Pat. So if you're, you know, feathering his cap, special teams was excellent last year. I will say the defense that he left in Detroit was good when he left them. I'm not saying it was great the whole time, but he was doing a good job at the end there. He did rank very highly in that NFLPA survey when he was a coordinator that players really liked him. I think that's why you saw him as a candidate and you're like, maybe this could work out for him. It would be a great story if he rebounded and it was like it was a terrible first,

and maybe this little Dan Campbell arc. I don't know. I feel like we felt better about Dan Campbell after year one, but maybe not. He didn't have a great first year in Detroit. Maybe he'll learn a little bit on the fly. There'll be a little frisky here. But if I were a betting man,

I would say by the time we're sitting down for Thanksgiving, I don't know that he's going to be the New York Jets head coach. So I had him 31. 32. Listen, maybe Michael Flore is going to be a good offensive coach. He's a complete unknown. but when you're hiring Nathaniel Hackett to be your O.C. I'm putting you 32 on my list. I think if he hired anyone else,

that would have been enough for him to jump Aaron Glenn for me. But when he hired Nathaniel Hackett, I'm like, all right, I don't think this is going to end well. So I have Lafleur 32. You had Glenn 32. I guess in our official draft, it ends up being Aaron Glenn with the 32nd pick. All right, Pat.

That was amazing. We got through that. Yeah, I thought it was going to go much longer. felt like we hit a good pace. We did. We hit a good groove. We were on the same page with a lot of the guys, but not all the guys. I have a lot of stock now invested in Brian Schottenheimer. You now have a lot

of stock invested in Kellyn Moore. Maybe we do a little some type of friendly wager see how those teams performed compared to expectations next season. But good exercise to get ready for the 2020s season, Pat. Well, it was truly exhilarating. Like, that flew by. And yeah,

I mean, I probably could have gone three hours if he had wanted to. And so, Yeah. We'll have to do this again. We'll have to make this an annual thing. Annual. I like to invite myself back on your show. No, I love it. Listen, your column is an annual column that I read every single year. So why not make this, you know, kind of do a little jumping off point, a little synergy between NBC Sports and the ringer. So check out all of Pat Dardy's work. And NBC Sports love talking, not just coaching. One day I'll have him on to talk about something other than coaching, but I love talking coaching with him. So that's what we did today. Check out all of his work. Thank you to Christopher Sutton for producing Stefano Sanchez on video and additional production supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopal. I'm Shio Coppao. We will talk to you next time on the Ringer NFL show.

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