The Ringer NFL Show - NFL Hot Seat Check-in! Which Coaches are in Trouble?

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

Sheil is joined by Pat Daugherty from NBC Sports to talk about some of the head coaches around the NFL who may be on the verge of looking for new franchises to helm this offseason. (00:00) NFL hot seat check-in(1:21) Hot seat category #1: They’re gone(10:17) Hot seat category #2: On the fence(20:33) Hot seat category #3: The wild cards(25:12) The Hurry Up: Things Get Worse for the Giants Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit ⁠www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Sheil KapadiaGuest: Pat DaughertyProducer: Chris SuttonSocial: Kiera Givens and Brian WatersProduction Supervision: Conor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm your host, Shield Capadia. We are doing a little hot seat check-in. What teams are going to be looking for head coaches this offseason? Who is coaching for a job in the final five weeks here? Could there be some surprises that people aren't thinking about to break it all down? We've got Pat Dardy from NBC Sports. He's been on with us before. Always fun talking about this stuff with him, especially coaches with Pat. I love talking coaches with Pat. So let's take a break a break, we come back and we talk NFL hot seats. This episode of The Ringer NFL show is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting the leadership of a team captain on the football field, but getting a C captain? Sure, they're both captains, but who is going to run your offense? You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team, so don't settle for just any insurance.

When it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, we are back here with Pat Dardy. We are talking NFL coaches, a little hot seat talk, Pat, and we're going to start with this first category. Okay, the first category is they're gone. And by that, I mean, like, I would legitimately be surprised if these guys are back. And I actually only have two guys in this category.

You know, we already have the Titans job open. We have the Giants job open. And I think we're almost definitely going to, get two more. Kevin Stafansky and Pete Carroll are the two guys I have in this category. So I'll give you the case real quick. You tell me if you agree or disagree. Stafansky is, I mean, six and 23 over the last two seasons, even if a guy has been well respected and, you know, he's won what, coach of the year twice? Six and 23 is hard to get over where I just feel like they're going to look at it and be like, okay, we're just going to go in a different direction and try to figure this thing out.

So that's DeFansky. And then Pete Carroll, I mean, they're two and ten. I know we talked about him last time you were on. Most surprisingly, maybe they've got the worst vibes in the NFL. It just feels hopeless every time you watch them. And so I don't think Pete Carroll is going to be back here. So agree or disagree with those two selections. A hundred percent agree on Carol.

Because the problem for Carol is that the thesis of the hire was immediately disproven where he's at least going to establish a baseline. where at least not going to be a laughing stock anymore. The vibes will be good. Like, say which will of Pete Carroll. Like, he's been one of the ultimate vibes coach, not to, like, undersell him as a coach, much more than a vibes coach.

But you just took it for granted. You were getting, like, a positive atmosphere, positive energy with Pete Carroll and said, Neal, not only has that not happened, not only did the baseline not get raised, not only were they not pulled out of the doldrums? Like, have they ever been this big of a laughing stock? Like, during their laughing stock era?

Because, like, this is their laughing, stock era and it somehow has fell even further and I'm a little surprised it happened to be honest with Pete I thought like even if Pete was like past his prime you know like there's one thing Pete Carroll can do it's get any team to nine and eight

and yeah or at least seven and ten you know even seven and ten would have been good that's true for Pete Carroll and so yeah the fact that the immediate like the reason you hired Pete Carroll was to prevent this from happening and then it did happen and you know the Raiders I think a special no one wants to be one

and done with the coach. A team that's had the Raiders coaching drama, I'm sure it is particularly not wanting to go down this road again. So how do you watch the 2025 Las Vegas Raiders, though, and think someone else should not be leading his team? It's also kind of their thing, Pat, you know, branding your lane, like we're the one and

done team, you know, we just, we make a bad decision and then we, uh, you know, we're not going to fall for the sunk cost. We're just, all right, it was a bad decision. Let's move on. They don't really have another lane. So maybe that can be their lane. Yeah, I was thinking about Carol and, Have you ever edited a Wikipedia page in your life?

I've tried once or twice. You have? This world is, I'm a Wikipedia devotee. Like, love Wikipedia. But that world, talk about an insular world. Like, I was just like, I was going to call Pete Carroll's coaching staff, insular to his own sons. Wikipedia editing is a very insular world that I did not feel like I could crack.

Because I was going to suggest, like, I do feel, I think you and I are both Pete Carroll fans. We're fans of his career. We think he's been a great coach. We need to just erase this year from the Pete Carroll legacy. like so I was going to ask you because I don't even know how to do it. Go into Wikipedia. Maybe we contact someone to pro football reference and just be like, just don't include this season on his resume there.

So yeah, all right. So we're both on the same page with Pete Carroll. We'll see what Tom Brady decides. You know, there were reports out there that, hey, he wanted Ben Johnson or whatever. So let's see if he gets another shot at this and finds his favorite offensive coach. Where are you with Stefanski? You sound like you might be a little less sure about Stefanski belonging in this category. Final thought on Pete, by the way.

The final year erasing itself, that'll take care of itself. No one remembers Babe Ruth on the Boston Braves. That's true. So Pete will be fine. Stefansky, I am a little more on the fence because I will say this is a very long time for an organization as dysfunctional as the Cleveland Browns, you know, not to make a firing. I'm sure they're itching to do it. I just sort of think, you know, they're looking for anything positive. And I bet if they did like an organizational audit, they would find they still have.

But the one positive thing we still have is we believe in the coach. Even though we're 6 and 23, you know, this isn't his fault. Like one of the guys making the roster decisions, he was so bad, he now works for the Colorado Rockies. And so like, let's not blame that on Kevin Stifansky. It's good, Kevin. He was blaming Stifansky. Didn't Deep Padesta do that in his introductory press conference? He said he wasn't calling the plays or something.

Yeah. And Kevin must have been one of them. Okay. But Kevin's problem when it comes to not being fired is that, you know, a lot of the Hail Mary's have already been thrown. Someone's been fired from the front office. They've, you know, untold number of quarterback changes. He's fired himself as play caller twice. Right.

And it's hard to stay one step ahead of the law for that long as he's been doing. So that is working against him. I also will say, you said, you told me we could discuss trades. I could see almost Kevin Stefanski being a guy like the league might be interested in trading it. Like this isn't his fault. Like this is this what happens in Cleveland. We, two-time coach of the year, like you said. So I don't think he's done coaching next year for sure. I'm just not sure if it's in Cleveland or not.

Yeah, I was looking at some of these available head coaching lists. I think there was one on NFL.com. I don't know that I've seen a more uninspiring list, like, since I've been in the, you know, covering this where I'm just like, oh my gosh, these are the top candidates that are available to be a head coach. So I'm with you. I actually think if Defansky were fired that he might be the top candidate on the market. For him and, you know, his agent and whatever, this might be a great time to actually go ahead and get fired. And I think what happens sometimes is like an ownership gets, you know, wind of that where Jimmy Hasol will be like, wait, other people like him. Maybe we should just keep him.

So that's not out of the question. I was thinking about this though, Pat. All right, to rank these possibilities for Stefanski. Because I do think he's well respected. I think it's a bad situation. I'm not telling you he's done a good job at 6 and 23, but I can see him having a good second act somewhere. in a more competent organization. So here are the four things I wrote down.

Giants head coach, Titans head coach, Raiders head coach, or Eagles offensive coordinator. I had to throw that in because he's got roots to Philadelphia. And if it's one of the, you know, Philadelphia, that organization is a good place to kind of rehab your image. And then all of a sudden a year later, everybody wants you. If you had to rank those Giants, Titans, Raiders, head coach, and Eagles OC from most likely to least likely,

if Stefansky is no longer with the Browns, what would your ranking be? I think I might eliminate Raiders and Titans right off the back because Kevin's fancies were like, dude, like, I've been with the Browns. Like, I don't need to get back on this kind of train and like, I want to be a head coach,

but I need to be in a competent organization. Titans aren't a little intriguing? Yeah, they're a little intriguing. No expectations, young quarterback. They're more intriguing in the Raiders. Yeah, I agree with that. But I think he'll be most intrigued by the New York Giants, and they would maybe be intrigued by him too

because whenever you have a young franchise quarterback, back, good organizations tend to revolve the entire franchise around about, you know, we want to be a good overall team, a good overall organization, but nothing is more important than developing this quarterback. Who would be better in the NFL who's available right now to do that

than Kevin Stefansky? I think there'd be mutual interest there. And then I do think, yeah, the head coaching job that he wants doesn't become available. He might almost view it as a better gamble to go to Eagles rehab school and be the sacrificial lamb for the Raiders or the Titans. And be like, listen, I'll

there the year the Eagles are good. As you know, what the Eagles, they're on the every other year plan somehow. Talk about vibes. How are the Eagles always eight and four with like the worst possible vibes? Yeah. It's very strange. It's hard to deal. I can see him opting for that. The Eagles rehab plan over what he views is like a too flawed of a head coaching job.

I think it's a great point because you can get the second head coaching job. The third head coaching job if the second one doesn't work out, that's a lot harder. So I think you're right. And he's a young, you know, he's a younger guy on the scale of NFL head coaches. So I think he would be wise to pick the right spot. Giants could intrigue him. I think the Titans maybe could intrigue him. You know, I'm with you.

It has not been a good organization. It has not been stable. It probably would just depend on, you know, what does he think of Cam Ward? What does he think of their GM, Borgesi? Like, would this be a good situation or not? So yeah, I'll go Giants. I think you're right.

Giants, then Eagles O.C., then Titans head coach, then Raiders head coach in that order. All right. So those are the two guys I have in the They're Gone category. Next category, Pat, on the fence. These are guys who might be coaching for their jobs here over the last five weeks. As stupid as that sounds, you know, sometimes you go into Week 18 and the insiders like, this guy's coaching for their job. And I'm like, that seems really stupid to make a decision on if this team wins or loses.

But the more you get to know, like owners and decision makers in the NFL, you're like, no, I could actually see that guy making a decision based on how this goes. So I've got Mike McDaniel, the day. Dolphins, Rahim Morris of the Falcons, and Jonathan Gannon of the Cardinals in this category. Do you feel like any of them belong in the first category of they're gone? Or are you on the fence with these three guys as well? I think I'm going to put Rahim and Gannon in the first category. Wow. And for them, it boils down to one pretty simple reason.

I feel like, for one thing, I feel like defensive-minded guys don't get as much leeway, don't get as much grace. because like an offensive-minded head coach like Brian Dable could just, he could blame it on the quarterback for almost four years. Like you have an easier out, an easier alibi. If you're a defensive-minded head coach and you know, you don't have at least like a top 16, top half of the league defense,

you get a lot less grace, I feel like. I'm not just from ownership, but from the media. There's just a lot less patience. Like we saw it like Robert Sala with the Jets. There's a lot less patience in general. I feel like for defensive-minded head coaches. And Rahim Morris, he's got the real bad problem. if it's a second year, this should be the year, you know, where at least his defense is hitting at stride.

And, you know, the exact opposite is happening. And, of course, all the problems on offense, still the problems with game management. But if you're a defensive-minded guy in year two, you don't have the defense on the up and up. You know, you don't have to be Mike McDonald with the Seahawks, but you've got to be better than what the Falcons have been. And it's the same with the Cardinals. He's a defensive-minded guy. He's four years now, I believe. He doesn't have a defensive bully and the quarterback plateaued.

I could just see the front office is relatively new still. I could see them wanting to get another shot at the head coaching thing. And I feel like both of them are probably, I think it's going to be a big year for coaches being out. All right. So that's interesting because we landed, I think, a little differently where I came away from this exercise going, I think there might be fewer openings than I think. And a part of that is just looking at the candidate.

The low-hanging fruit has already been picked too. Yeah, you're right. And I feel like some of these teams are going to be spooked and be like, I don't really see someone out there who I love. Let's give this guy one more chance. but you make a strong case. I mean, Rahim Morris, 33 and 55 as a head coach. I was looking at every head coach that has coached 50 games.

He ranks 177th at a 204 in winning percentage. The game management's horrendous. They're four and eight. Now, I will say this. If I'm Rahim Morris's agent and I'm like, you know, doing my leaks to the insiders being like, hey, put it out, maybe you want to throw this out there. There are two things I would put out there, Pat, tell me if either of these sell you. One is great coaches vouch for Rahim Morris, like Tomlin,

at one point did an interview and it's like, Rahe Morris is the best coach I've ever coached with. And I was like, wow, that's interesting. McVeigh. He obviously coached there with McVeigh. I think Shanahan in the past has said, so that has some meaning at least where great coaches are like, no, this guy is a great coach.

That's one. And he can also play what I like to call their Terry Fontenow card here, Pat, where, you know, sometimes I don't advocate for backstabbing, you know, if you're listening in your industry or your profession, I'm not saying I would do this. But if you're in the NFL, you could maybe just whisper that, hey, man, come on. Terry Fontenow has had six first round picks, including four in the top 10. He paid a free agent quarterback, 100 million guaranteed money.

He already traded away our first round pick next year, which, by the way, is going to be a top 10 pick. The organization has been under 500, regardless of the coach, five straight seasons with him. I mean, this really isn't my fault, Mr. Blank. You know, you've got to go, Mr. Blank, as the coaches do. Yeah, Mr. Blank, this isn't my fault. it's more the GM. Like, maybe you get another GM in here and I'm telling you I can turn

this thing around. What do you think? Would those things sway you on Rahim Morris? A little bit because to Terry Fontono, sorry if this is like two insular internet, but you know the meme where it says no one and then it says so and so-and-so, it's so-and-so time. Terry Fontonau is kind of the ultimate. It's Terry Fontenotno time. Like even though no one was

asking for that. That is a persuasive argument. And Rahim, it's not just great coaches who vouch for him. It's also great players. The Ram, defense, I remember, like, they were pounding the table for Rahim Morris to get another head coaching job. So he does have a lot of people in the league who believe in him working in his favor. Yeah, I agree with that. And with Gannon, I mean, his winning, I don't think people realize how bad his winning percentage is worth than Rahim Morris. He's 15 and 31 in three seasons. So he

doesn't qualify for 50 games yet. If he did, that would rank 191st out of 204 coaches all time. And by the way, it's not just the winning. You know, we talked, Rahim Morris doesn't have any other, like, weird stuff on his resume, other than, you know, they lose a lot of games and the defense is bad and his game management's bad. But the weird stuff I'm talking about, remember, Jonathan Gannon cost his team a pick swap because he couldn't even take the job correctly. They got hit with the tampering thing when he took the job. Then he got fined $100,000 for what I don't even know what to call it anymore.

What did he do to Emery DeMercado? Like, can we say, struck him, punch him, made contact? He did, so whatever it was. He did it. It was striking adjacent. That was for sure. It was striking adjacent. And he got fined $100,000 for that.

So I know they lost a bunch of one score games, but he was supposed to come in and it's like, all right, get Kyler Murray on track, a new era, get this defense going. And they're in like the exact same place, if not worse, than when he got there. So I would put him like ahead of Rahim Morris in terms of guys I think would get fired.

The only thing I would say, too, to your point with Rahim, with Gannon, And if you want to blame someone else, Kyler Murray looks like a pretty convenient scapego. All right. And how am I supposed to win with Kyler Murray? Yeah. That's true.

He can play that game. Yeah, this is part of coaching. You know, find someone else. Politics is part of coaching for sure. Yeah. All right. So Mike McDaniel, you didn't. You think he belongs here.

Where are you with Mike McDaniel? Are you on the fence like I am where I'm actually not sure if he's going to get fired or not? I'm very on the fence. And so, you know, sometimes teams develop a reputation of like, they kick the field goal when they should go for it. or then they go for it when they should kick the field goal. The dolphins kind of feel like that to me in their front office

where certain people have been kept way too long. Other people have been let go too quickly. A lot of players don't get second contracts with the dolphins. Then they go on and have a successful rest of career elsewhere where it just seems like they can't self-scout well either. I feel like they're like a very sensitive organization. Or I'd be like one thing maybe helping Mike and Daniel. I think something you alluded to earlier was a different team.

but I think the dolphins could maybe not fire Mike McDaniels. They'd be spooked. He would get hired immediately elsewhere. Or I could just see them keeping him. And I'm not even saying keeping him, it would be the wrong decision, but I could see them keeping him for the wrong reasons. I'm genuinely confused, too, like, if keeping him is the right decision. Like, should he be viewed as someone.

I agree with that? Like, should he be viewed as someone who absolutely maximized, like, an inadequate quarterback into a Tunga Voloa? Or should be viewed as someone who, like, maxed out immediately? Like, he's a very tough. guy to figure, I feel like in the coaching case. I'm with you because if you look at it, you're like, another coach with Tuotung of Iloa,

the last four years and the injuries he's had and the rest of the roster, Mike McDaniel has gone 33 and 30 with two playoff appearances. That kind of feels like it's not bad, you know? Like, I don't know. Sure, the great coaches, maybe they would have done better, but not. I think if you took all the coaches in the NFL and you're like, would they have done better than that over the last four years, I think more would not have done better than that.

then actually would have done better than that. So yeah, in some ways, it's kind of like, well, that's not bad. Now, on the other hand, he hasn't shown an ability to do any of the other stuff. You know, it just has been weird vibes and the leadership. He loses Vic Fangio after one year where it's like, all right, what kind of what happened there? There's stuff with the discipline and accountability. So I'm not sweeping that stuff under the rug that hasn't been good. At the same time, a month ago it felt like they might be in line for the number one pitch.

And that hasn't happened. You know, they've won four or five here. They seem to still be playing hard. When they fired Chris Greer, the GM, I kind of took that as a, hey, maybe they are going to stick with Mike McDaniel here. So yeah, right now I'm saying keep him. I do kind of feel like of all the people who are coaching for their jobs, he might be the one where it's sort of like these last five weeks, if they're getting blown out and

guys look disinterested and it's embarrassing, he might be out of there. Whereas even if they don't make the playoffs, but it's like, all right, it's a respectable team. they might say, hey, let's change some of the other stuff, but keep the head coach. You made the most important point of Mike McDaniel probably, too, where, listen, we already fired someone. We fired the GM. Right. It's like now we're moving on.

We want stability. Two, I think a certain, some dysfunctional organizations fire too quickly. Then there's some other dysfunctional organizations like the Cowboys who they view like stability as synonymous with competency, which is, of course, not always the case. Sometimes you actually do need to make a change. I think the giants are like that, by the way. They're like obsessed with not being an unstable organization and they don't make changes. And you're like, this guy kind of sucks.

Like I probably would have made a change earlier there. All right. Let's take a break. We come back and I got a couple wild cards for Pat. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move quickly like a blitz to save the game. That's where Prime comes in with fast, free delivery. You know, my kids put together these presentations for what they want for Christmas.

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All right, let's finish with this, Pat. I'm trying to find a wild card, and it's hard. I was, you know, I was scouring the coaching list for a while being like, can I throw someone at him that he's not going to expect? And the two names I kept coming back to, and again, I don't think they're going to be gone. But if you told me, hey, there's a surprise, they're playing each other this weekend. And that's John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin, where it's just two guys who have been with their organizations for a long time, widely respected, have had great careers,

have been two of the better coaches of what, the last 20 years here, at the same time, is it time for a change? And is there a team like the Giants that says, we don't really love the candidates out there. Let's take a swing with the trade

on one of these guys. So where are you on those two, John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin, or is there another wild card that I'm missing here? See, I must admit, Tomlin or Harbaugh are much more like viable trade candidates than Kevin Stefanski.

The rare coach trades do evolve, like involve established brands like Tomlin or Harbaugh. And Tomlin, I really do think, is at his, he's at his like Andy Reed at the Eagles juncture with the Steelers where I think everyone agrees Mike Tomlin should be coaching an NFL team.

But like, sometimes you just have to shake it up. Like the Eagles are a great organization and knowing when to shake him. Not just with Andy Reed, but then with Doug Peterson. Sometimes it just has to be done. Might have even be done with Nick Siriani soon. And the Steelers have,

blown past that juncture, like three or four different times where they probably could have used the reset. And again, you don't want to fire someone or part ways to someone that you know was going to get another job. But I think Tomlin kind of wants out. I mean, you can't ever ascribe too much meaning to one game. When you watch the Steelers and Bills,

like did that not just feel like watching an era end in real time? I thought that last year with the Steelers. That's true. I thought it's several years. Yeah. But Sunday it was kind of like, how did we ever think this plan was going to work, Aaron Rogers' plan?

And like, I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan. We kept John Moseilock, we, sorry, the Cardinals, kept John Moseilac three or four years too long, because he had had a lot of success. The Cardinals valued stability. Change is scary. I think the Steelers are at the point where even if it ends up a downgrade, they need to try something different.

And it's not even Mike Tomlin's fault. I think both sides would greatly benefit from trying something different in Pittsburgh. I think that's the difference between these two coaches, where I think John Harbaugh, if you asked him, he's probably like, I got Lamar Jackson. I don't want to go start over somewhere else. Like, let's get him healthy. We've been in the mix here. He probably would be less interested in that.

I actually wrote down the Andy Reid comp for him, though, because, you know, Andy Reid was his mentor in Philadelphia. And it's just like John Harbaugh has had this long run. They've won a lot of games. They haven't won the big one. Is there a second chapter for him somewhere where it's different? So I'm a little intrigued. That one I feel like would almost mean. be more Ravens ownership and management being like, listen, we've got offered this trade.

It's time for a change, whatever. Tomlin, I'm with you. If I'm him, and it's easy for me to say, like I know he's got roots in Pittsburgh and change is not easy, but I might, I feel like, if I were him, I'd be a little fatigued and just be like, all right, this has been great. This is a great organization to work for. I know I'm taking a risk, but I'm at the stage of my career where I'm willing to take that risk. This isn't working for either side. We have no path going forward. Let's go ahead and work something out here. I think the Ravens too, by the way, the Ravens just lost a great coach in Mike McDonald's. They might be a little more philosophical about like, we love John Harbaugh. John Harbaugh is

synonymous with Ravens football, but like there's always another coach. Like there's always another era where that could almost have them more open-minded to like maybe moving on or like a mutual parting of ways. That's true. John Harbaugh. Because Harbaugh, I don't know if it's bad luck. Has any team had more bad luck than the Ravens? And like they might just want to shake up their mojo. I was saying yesterday, it's like if you took the 2024 or 2023 Ravens and put them in this year, we'd be like, man, I think they're going to win the Super Bowl. But that timing, yeah, it hasn't worked out for them. So we'll see that there's some. I do think the Giants having an opening in a year where there aren't great candidates and in a stretch where they haven't been able to get this right since Tom Coughlin at least leads to some intrigue that maybe will get something spicy depending on how the.

last five weeks play out here. All right. His name is Pat Dardy. Love talking football with him. Love talking coaches with him. You can check him out on NBC Sports. I will be right back with the hurry up. The hurry up is our closing segment where I give you a take on news in the NFL.

And things seem to somehow be getting even worse in New York for the Giants. We talked about them a little bit earlier. But this week, man, they get blown out by the Patriots on Monday night. Jackson Dart makes his return, but makes. no changes to his play style. So he's getting rocked all game long. I mean, Troy Aikman was just like in disbelief watching the hits that Jackson Dart was taking. And afterwards, Dart tells reporters, he's going to keep being aggressive.

He tells them, watch my high school tape and you won't be shocked about how I play. But man, this is not high school. And it is just hard to envision a scenario where he's going to be able to get through an entire NFL season, taking these hits and playing this way. So you got that. Meanwhile, rookie Abdul Carter is benched for me. missing a special teams meeting according to the athletic the second time in three weeks. He's been disciplined.

And then GM Joe Shane holds a press conference. I guess he does this at the by week every year talking to reporters. It doesn't have a lot of answers. And for me, it was just a reminder that this organization has bad leadership. I mean, we're talking about the second fewest wins in the entire NFL over a 10-year span. And I'm not confident that they're going to have a smart path going forward. So I just want to go on the record and say, keeping Joe Shane is a massive mistake.

I mean, this is the perfect time for an organizational reset. This team needs direction, leadership, stability, and instead, now they're looking for a coach that can work with Joe Shane. Why are you doing this Giants? It does not make sense to me. It is unnecessary. So maybe it'll work out, but I just hate the process, and I am not confident that the Giants are going to make wise decisions this offseason.

Maybe I'll be wrong. We'll see. All right. Thanks to everyone for listening. Thank you to Pat Dardy. Thanks to Christopher Sutton for producing Kira Givens on social and additional production supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopal. I'm Sheila Kapadia.

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