The Ringer NFL Show - NFLPA Drama, Preseason Watchability Draft, and More

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Steven and Diante start the pod by discussing the relationship status between Dolphins teammates Tua Tagovailoa and Tyreek Hill, before diving into highly publicized resignations within NFLPA leadership. They then go around the league and touch on some of the hot-button news, including updates on TJ Watt, Micah Parsons, and Trey Hendrickson, before diving in to the Tyrann Mathieu and Philip Rivers retirements. Finally, they employ the draft method to analyze and debate which NFL teams they are most excited to see play in the preseason. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.rg-help.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Steven Ruiz and Diante LeeProducer: Chris SuttonSocial: Kiera GivensProduction Supervision: Conor Nevins and Arjuna Ramgopowell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, Hey, Deanie Hafez here from The Ringer Fantasy Football Show. We're coming to you multiple times per week to tell you who to draft, who not to draft. Honestly, that's kind of most of it. The Ringer Fantasy Football Show, YouTube, Spotify, wherever get your podcast, The Ringer Fantasy Football Show. Oh, and welcome to another episode of the Ringer NFL show. We are getting out of context one-on-one clips from the practice field.

We are getting pick-sixes from rookie quarterbacks that are being overreacted to. It is officially training camp season, Deontay. I don't know if your timeline has been inundated with the same report. that mine have, just the most useless analysis on practice that I've ever seen. And I feel like it's increasing every year. How are you feeling on the first couple days of NFL training camp? Hey, I hate like out of just like coming out the box, I just hate like every training camp clip.

Like if you're not there to witness it, none of it means anything, honestly. And then be like the stuff that actually gets a lot of circulation, like the one-on-ones and stuff like that. I'm like, come on, guys. Like this is literally just like the most. It's like, you know, taping free throw practice after, you know, after NBA training camp, you know, like, oh my gosh, look at this guy shooting for. You know, it means absolutely nothing. But I will say what it is great for, if you're a fan with the gripe against one of your rivals, if you've got old training camp footage that you want to use to weaponize for a narrative, it is very easy to do that because you have no idea when any of this stuff is taped.

It's not like it's timestamp. So if you just see green and white jerseys out on the field, this is. looks just like in 2021, a 2021 Eagles practice just as much as it looks like a 2025 Eagles practice. So what do you have some evil plots cooking in your mind? Are you, are you planning something? Are you going to address some misinformation on the

timeline? I'm just saying, man, as somebody who has been on the front lines of this whole cam versus Jalen Hertz thing, like if I wanted to drop in some old, you know, some old training camp clips because Jalen Hurts wasn't the best practice player for a while, I might be able to get that off and people won't really know the difference. We can't get into the camp, Jalen Hertz. That

would be a three-hour podcast. I mean, There have been some interesting things, and we're going to get to some other stuff. We have the NFLPA drama going on. We have Tyron Matthew retired. We have T.J. Watt signing an extension. We have Jerry Jones and Mike Brown commenting on their disgruntled star pass rushers wanting contracts. We have a lot to get to. But there were some interesting things from the first couple of days.

One that stuck out to me was Tua Tarekawaiq Hill. obviously if you go back to last year after the week 18 game Tyreek basically says I'm out I think he tweeted that out with the little piece on he said I'm out he was hinting at it in the post game press conference that he didn't really want to be around and like Miami was a team a work in progress as a team and he didn't want to be a part of that he wanted to compete for a championship but he seems to be back in the good graces of Miami he wants to stay but Tuwa was asked about that and about his relationship with Tyreek and I feel like we got a

complicated answer from Tua and To his credit, I feel like isn't the politician quarterback. He is willing to say stuff and willing to air grievances out in public. And he said about Tyree, he said, when you say something like that, and he's referring to the I'm out tweet or whatever it was, when you say something like that, you don't just come back with my bad. You got to work that relationship up. He's working on himself. And I feel like this is a very key update to the Miami Culture Watch. Like, that's been the talk in Miami and Mike McDaniel has been wanting to change the culture.

I don't know what kind of changes he wants. He wants them to be tougher, I guess. But it seems like they're starting on the wrong foot with Tua and Tyree, kind of having not an icy relationship, but there is, there seems to be some tension there. What did you make of these comments from Tua? Well, I wanted to start with the same thing that you noted, right? Like, if the culture thing is real,

it actually is going to be really interesting to look at it through the lens of Tua. Because like you said, he's not going to, everybody's having a good time in this thing. I will say for the most part, whether it's been talking about, injuries or just injuries in general with him. He's usually pretty revelatory about just like what that's been like for him emotionally, physically, and the whole thing.

And in this Tyreek situation, just coming out and saying it, like, yeah, dude, when you said that, you fucked up everybody's mood in here. Like, nobody feels good about losing and you making this about you was not a good look. And I also think that it's confirmation of the fact that I think that was Tua specifically, he looked at some of the veterans that are maybe not around anymore and probably identified all that stuff as a problem just as much as those veterans. wanted to get out of the building. So I will give him credit.

Like I can have my issues with play style or talent level or whatever the case may be, but he clearly seems to have his thumb on the pulse of the things that are actually a problem in that building. And I think that the quarterback going out and not just allowing Tyreek to say like, hey, yeah, man, I was just in a bad mood after we lost the game. And forcing that to continue to be a conversation piece, both in the locker room and publicly, I think it's a great way to try to play defense against people getting, you know, giving out those placations.

and in just being, you know, kind of dismissing this and just acting like everything's cool. Because the truth of the matter is that if this team wants to get to where it wants to get to, this is going to be a tumultuous road to try to make another playoff road. And if they have another cold streak or if Tua has to miss time or if Tarek really is hitting the age cliff and he's not as productive as he used to be, it's going to be an uncomfortable space for everybody to be in. And I like the fact that he's at least pointing it out. The more interesting for me is like, what kind of Tyreek are you going to get in training camp, right? Like, are you going to get the guy who's approaching.

his age clip and is busting his ass to try to have another career year or be a you know a driver of culture or is this a guy who says all the right things and then if he gets you know if he has a game really has three targets you're going to start seeing them open like this is a very interesting nexus in career for tyree kill to me yeah and one thing that too a note it was like it wasn't just him and too it was like Tyreek in the whole locker room like you mentioned like you kind of you know harsh the vibes in the locker room but it's july 23rd if you had a guess right now Because I feel like there is some intert turmoil, and if the season goes like it did last year, we're going to see a lot of division.

We're going to see some public comments. We're going to see maybe some trades and people leaving the team. If you had a guess on July 23rd, will Tyreek be playing for this team in November, in December? What would you pick? Yes or no? I mean, right now, it's hard to say, it's hard to say yes confidently. Right. And I'm just looking at the list of things that have happened in Miami, right?

You think about all the veterans that have left. You bring in a guy like Mika Fitzpatrick who was just leaving a situation where he kind of felt, it seemed like he kind of felt similarly to the way that Tyreek did at the end of the dolphin season. Or it's like, you know, this place isn't good enough for me. I just look at the mixture of voices. You look at Mike McDaniel.

You can only imagine how much pressure he must feel. Even if his job is not necessarily on the line, he can't possibly feel that strongly about the way things are going. You look at Tua's contract. And you think about Chris Gehr's stability, he can move on from a guy like to a after this season and it might not affect his job security. So I think there's a lot of tension in the building and all that informs are that's kind

like the lens I'm looking at the Tyreek thing through. And I would not be surprised at all if they come out and they have a rough start or it looks like they're not going to be in contention in the AOC East at all. If this team gets to the midseason point and they're looking at whether or not this is going to be just more deadcap, they've got to eat in order to turn this roster around deeper on into the future. So I'm going to say yes, but probably about as tepidly as you could give a yes in the situation. Yeah, it's, what are you? Like, a week out from preseason games, like the predictions

right now don't matter. There are no stakes. No one's going to remember these. So I'm going to say he's going to get traded. And I'm going to call my shot like Babe Ruth. He's going to get traded back to the Chiefs. I'm calling it right now. I don't know if you've heard Patrick Malm's, he's talking about the deep ball again. I keep bringing this stuff. He's so in his head about this deep ball thing that I feel like it's mental at this point. Like I know we blame the the wide-s super situation, but like he's even talking about he's like, yeah, man, I just got to give these guys a chance and like he can't do it for some reason like he's saying it but he can't do it so like that's another thing that kind of stuck out there have been clips of him pushing the ball down field

in training camp i don't know if like people are making a point to like posted every time they complete on the deep ball right but it seems like that's another emphasis so i wouldn't be surprised if you know if i'm brett vich i'm calling up miami after these comments and being like hey you want me to you know take this problem off your hand like like uh the steelers did with jaylon ransy and exploring that. A couple other notes from the first couple days of practice. Jackson Dart threw a pick six. I don't know if you saw the video.

And I don't care. I'm not going to overreact him throwing a pick six. Like it's the first day of camp or whatever. But the crowd reaction. I implore everyone to go watch that clip and hear how the crowd reacts. It's just like goes completely silent as the guy is running back. The interception, that was a funny one. And then this was like the weirdest thing that came out of the first couple of days.

Matt Schneidman, like Packers Beat reporter, reported that Tucker Kraft, who is a tight end, by the way, took a rep at kickoff for Turner in Packers practice, which I don't have a comment on it. I don't know how to analyze that, but interesting. That's my response. Do you have any response to that? I think if I know football teams,

the way that I used to know football teams and I was a part of them and being on the coaching side, what that sounds like to me is a tight end who was talking to a special teams coach like, hey, man, I can return a kick. I used to return kicks at high school, you know? And it's like, all right, dude, it's training camp. We're going to put you back there.

In the moment that you drop a kick, we're going to make the entire special teams unit run gassers. So that's what that sounds like to me more than anything. This just reminded me, just brought back a bad memory. One of my most embarrassing moments as like a Madden player. My brother, at one point, I forget what year was like 2004, 2005. He put Brian Erlacker at kickoff return hurt. You could do that back then. And he returned the kick for a touchdown on me.

First time. It wasn't like he got extra reps at it. It wasn't like Brian Urlackard's like 15th time returning. Like first time you returned a kickoff return on it. I'm still thinking about that years later, 20 years later. But like we'll have a month to overreact to training camp nonsense. We actually have some real news. We have like some very important news.

The NFL Players Association has just imploded over the last couple of weeks. I think it started with the Pablo Torre and Mike Florio reporting. Don Manada and Kaelan Kaler came out with another report, kind of on the meltdown and Lloyd Howell, who led the players, associated in his resignation, we kind of took people by surprise. J.C. Tredder, like the player, leader of the union. He also resigned after all this fallout. It really started with the collusion news where, like, an arbiter kind of ruled in favor of the

league that there wasn't sufficient evidence that there was collusion among the owners, but he did find that the league management council did encourage owners to kind of suppress guaranteed money in contracts. It goes back to like Lamar Jackson contract negotiation and trade request. It goes back to Russell Wilson's negotiations with the Broncos. So we have a lot of fallout from that,

but Lloyd Howell has officially resigned leaving the Players Association leadership essentially, our leader lists essentially. And I mean, I think there are a lot of important ramifications, but I mostly wanted to joke about this because the details are just

insane. I think the news that caught a lot of people's attention, the headline at least, was that Howell charged the union $738 for transportation to a Miami strip club, and then $2,400 for an Atlanta strip club, while I guess entertaining two employees during a union retreat back in February. And I feel like that's the news that finally got people paying attention to this, because like no one cares what really cares about player association and the drama. they usually side with the owners for some reason. But I do think that how this news coming out

kind of paints him as the bad guy in the situation. And yeah, like, what did you make of this? What is your reading on the Players Association? And do you think, like, we'll get actual change from this going forward that will get, like, someone leading this association that has, like, the, I don't know, the courage to actually stand up to the league and get something dumbed for the players?

I mean, once you get past the humor of it, right, and like, I don't make any mistakes about this. Because I'm not in this union, I would love nothing more than to laugh at just some of the hilarity of allowing bad actors into leadership positions in spots like this. And then just watching them unravel. Like, I can't pretend like I'm surprised at a guy that was, you know, part of a financial former consulting firm that I think had like a quarter billion dollar

bankruptcy or, you know, kind of financial misgivings issue in his career comes into another leadership position and immediately starts, you know, I'm replicating some of the same practices or, you know, things that have ethical issues and pushing those boundaries in that way. I think that, and the more you're around the league, and this was before I even started covering the game in 2021, I just think about all these CBA negotiations when DeMor Smith was at the head of things. And they had issues then, right? Like the lockouts almost always, you know, more punitively affected the players and it ever affected the owners. And they've always been kind of on the losing in the negotiations. but at least then it felt like having somebody who had more of a litigation background allowed

them to battle these things out a little bit better. I felt like their public messaging was a lot better a decade ago behind some of these contractual issues, CBA negotiations and things like that. And you read the reporting on them wanting to get a business guy in. And I think that maybe Danny Hyphus made the point, you know, so I'll kind of summarize it. It's kind of like that the face-eating leopards meme, right? Like I elected this guy. I never thought it would be my face that the leopard was eating said person who brought in someone from the face eating leperts party.

I'm like, dude, Lloyd Howell was never going to be your friend. This is a guy that has a history of being a union buster. That does not mean that he's going to be friendly to unions. That is the opposite. That was his pitch. His pitch was like, I was on the other side of this. I know what it takes to dismantle a union. And that's why you want me because I know all the tricks.

And like you said, like, no, I'm a leopard that's going to eat your face. And that's exactly what happened. Like, one of the problems with how. going back to the collusion case was he agreed that they were going to keep this confidential. Him in the league, and I think they only told a couple of representatives

from the association about it, but like the players didn't know about it. There's literally no incentive to do that for anybody but ownership. Exactly. Exactly. That serves no purpose for the players at all. This is the thing that stood out to me from the Venada report. One player said membership like how, because

he got them to think of the union as a cooperative business with the NFL instead of a thorn in the side of ownership, which that's the opposite of what a unions for. Fundamental misunderstanding of a union. We're not here to be partners. I mean, and Hal himself basically said that. He said, like, he pitched the players, like, I'm going to be able to help you make the money work for you, and we're going to work as a business.

And, like, you can forget about, like, the actual grievances you have, like, with marijuana, the extra games, the schedule, and all that stuff. Like, we're going to try to make money. And he also ran on. on a platform, or not ran, but because the process was kind of secretive, the electric process, and players didn't really know what was going on. But he said he was going to be transparent, and obviously he wasn't transparent, and I think it's so easy to blame the players for not being engaged, not, like, staying up to date on these

topics, but, like, that was the strategy. And how allowed the league to do that? They allowed the league to not hand over this information that, yes, ownership was trying to drive down guaranteed money in contracts. And then the players don't know about that. Don't find out about it. I just poor form on the part of Howe and the union. But like there were so many red flags along the way that J.C. Treader kind of ignored

and the executive council ignored. They were adamant that Lloyd stayed or Howell stayed a part of the Players Association. Even after the collusion news came out, even after the strip club stuff came out. And how was the Carlisle group is another thing. like you said, he was employed by this investment firm that was looking to invest in the NFL. Invest in the league. Yeah. Which, so that's going to be on the side of the owners.

Like, you want the league to make money. You want the owners to make money, which is not in the best interest. You don't understand. He's on one side of the business. That side of the business doesn't have anything to do with the investment side of the business. He's just here for the legal things. We're never speaking across these two channels about the money we're spending in the NFL. like if people could just back,

like if anybody on the executive committee could just take one step back and stop listening to J.C. Treter telling you that everything's going to be okay, none of this stuff would have added up. Even if, even if I'm to grant that like, hey,

the vetting process was what it was. There's really nothing you could do about that. I do, I have some questions about why they were so concerned about people's names as candidacies being public news would have been such an issue. That doesn't really, that doesn't really square with me.

I've never really viewed the NFL PA is needing that level of confidentiality to conduct its business. But even if I was to grant that, once you're in the building, everything that you have brought up since then, oh, you work for the Carlisle group that's looking to invest in NFL teams, disqualifying. Oh, you used to be a union buster, disqualifying. You've had problems with federal court working at other, you know, financial consulting firms. That should be disqualifying, right? Like, all these things have been like kind of telltale issues.

You sued for sexual discrimination and retaliation by someone who. worked under him at Booz Allen, and like you were referring to the case, he failed to act on a whistleblower telling him, like, we have a problem. We are overbuilding the government and we should not be doing this. And then they eventually had to pay the government. $377 million is one of the biggest payouts for a fraud case in the history of the country. This was all known information. This was all known information before they made this guy the head of the Players' Association. And I just don't understand. You know what? And that's before we even get to the fact that this is a massive OJ Simpson lover.

Okay. That's a detail we cannot skip over. Okay. This was in the ESPN report that just came out on Wednesday morning. So how ordered the union facilities department to merge two parking spots because he didn't want his Porsche getting, I guess he was worried that other car doors were going to hit his Porsche. But he wanted the parking space number to be 32 as an homage to OJ.

And this is like 2024, okay? It wasn't like 1992 before we found out what OJ was up to. But I don't, I'm at a loss for words. I don't know why an OJ Simpson stand is running the Players Association, among those other things he did. This might be like the most egregious red flag with them all. Listen, bro, there's nowhere in the Bay Area where he was born that is honoring OJ Simpson.

USC not honoring the man, the Buffalo Bills, not honoring the man. There's one thing you never have to do, and that's publicly embrace your love for OJ Simpson, buddy. You just don't have to do it. Nobody was going to ask you about it until you said something about it. My favorite part of this is like the spaces that he had merged were 10 and 11. Those were the numbers, and he wanted to change to 32.

So we have like 7, 8, 9, 32, 12. He wanted them to like disrupt the whole parking lot system just so he could pay homage to a guy who was charged. it's murder. There's some poor person that has terrible OCD that goes into that parking lot every day and just has an anxiety attack out of the sequence being broken because this guy needed you to know that he loved OJ, big OJ guy. Yeah. So the follow-out from this, I mean, the Players Association obviously needs another leader. I'm hoping Dominic Foxworth, you know, he's been on the SPN. He has, you know, experience leading the Players Association on the player side. But I thought he made the best

point about this. And he was saying, like, this was embarrassing for the players, but I think that is almost a good thing. I feel sorry for the players, but I do think the embarrassment of all this coming out may lead to them being more engaged and being more on top of these issues. We have Patrick Mahomes. He was on the Zoom call with player representatives saying, like, we need to get the leadership thing right. I think they're embarrassed by this. And I think they're embarrassed that this kind of exposes how out of tune they were with what was going on behind the scenes and how they were kind of taking advantage of. I feel like there's a clear pattern of obfuscation of just not being clear to the players on what was actually going on. And that has to change. And I'm hoping like a guy like

Foxworth who obviously was on the player side and, you know, can empathize with the players and wants what's best for a player can kind of make the changes that are necessary. Because this, it can't be what it was last in the last iteration of it. 1,000%. All right. Before we get into other news and notes around the league, we're going to take a break. And then we're going to come back and talk about T. T.J. Watts extension, among other things. All right, welcome back. TJ Watt last week signed an extension for three years, $123 million, $108 million guaranteed. That's $41 million per year, which is the biggest non-quarterback deal of the offseason.

Before we kind of talk about the implications for the other pass rushers who are looking to get paid, what are your thoughts on this deal? Good deal for the Steelers. Good deal for Watt. Who won the deal here? I think T.J. Watt wins the deal, right? Because you get three years. And I think it's like 88% of that contract is guaranteed, right?

If you do the math on it. That's great for T. It allows him to have a spot where he knows he's going to retire probably at the end of this deal. And you have that all worked out. I think also for the Steelers, this is not the most punitive thing for their cap, right? Because if you look at what their books are after 2025, it's relatively clear. Like Jalen Ramsey, prior to this contract, Gailen Ramsey would have been the only long-term money they still had tied to guys.

After moving on from Mika Fitzpatrick, with all the players they have on rookie deals. This is actually a relatively young team when you look at contract timelines outside of guys like, Watt and Ramsey. So it makes sense, right? Like, pay the guy, right? There's no reason. And if you weren't going to pay him, you may as well trade them and then really signal very clearly, hey, if you're not down to just kind of ride out the end of your deal, then we'll move on for you and we'll just try to do what we can with 2025. I'm not mad at it. I think that we'll probably have to have some conversations about the Steelers throughout the season. Unfortunately, because of where their position, every week now feels like it's going to be a reflection on

every decision that they have made in acquiring talent and the talent that's left and what their timeline is going to be over not just this season, but the next two to three years. But as far as this contract alone, I think that everybody should walk away from the table happy because Watt has been a big time producer for them, even if he's not that

defensive player of the year candidate guy that he was, I would say, between like 2018 and 2021. Not only will the team direction be a weekly conversation, it will be discussed on the Pat McAfee show every Tuesday afternoon by the quarterback, which is going to be very interesting to watch. I feel like indirectly, the big winner here is the Raiders who got Max Crosby for $35 million per year.

I would take Max Crosby. It'll get better every year. Yeah, I know there's a debate to be had between Crosby and Watt and like the impact plays that Watt makes, but I feel like there's been separation between those two over the last couple years. And Crosby is just one of the best defenders, one of the most disrupted defenders,

every down defender in the NFL. Another disruptive force on the defensive line is Michael Parsons, who is still looking for a deal. The latest update from Parsons, at least, is that his age try to call the Cowboys, he isn't getting any responses from Jerry and company. And then Jerry had a very interesting press conference this week. It's interesting in the fact that he was willing to say these things, but I guess it wasn't surprising because this is what Jerry does.

But Jerry pointed out that one of the hangups with like kind of signing Michael Parsons and why you don't just pay him whatever he wants, even though it should be one of those deals where you're like, yeah, you just pay the guy whatever he wants, like the Steelers did with what, is that Michael Parsons missed six games. And I'm putting that in square quotes because he actually missed four games last year. And he was like, the guy might not be available. So why would we pay him? Which is a concern with every football player who has ever signed a contract in the history of the NFL.

But we had JJ Watt tweet about that and kind of point out, this guy is like fighting for you every week and you're going to kind of hold it against him that he got hurt doing that. Like, why would you do that? Why would you alienate the player? And then Michael Parsons retweeted that. So I feel like we're not in a good spot. I do think this deal ultimately gets done. But there is some turmoil here.

I feel like this is just another example of Jerry Jones nonsense where he overcomplicates something that doesn't need to be complicated. Like, there is no complication about paying Michael Parsons. He's the best player on your team. One of the best defenders in the NFL, just pay him market value before that market value goes up. Like, you're going to get to a point like you did with that Preston where you're paying him more than Miles Garrett is like significantly more than Miles Garrett is making significantly more than T. And for what?

For what? Just so you can portray or portray. herself as this like shrewd businessman who doesn't take you know does he's going to be a hardball negotiation negotiator but it always blows back in his face it's never worked out yeah it's never worked out ezekiel elliott got the better of their negotiations back the next an overweight zeke elliott as i always pointed out this was not zeke the best running back in the NFL this was like zeke where we were like questioned whether what his shelf life was going for exactly and now maybe a guy that's more talented to both of those players are at their respect

in their respective peaks is looking for a deal. Even Tramon Diggs, right? Like I think that the Trouin digs might be the most Cowboys-friendly deal of the ones that I've listed, but even his for a guy who has had health issues, got a relatively hefty at the time, you know, amount of guarantees and annual value. So I think that, like you said,

this deal will ultimately get done. I think that Jerry Jones likes all the bluster. I do appreciate from Michael Parsons' perspective, and this is where it really gets funny, that he's not afraid to do this publicly either. Not at all, right? So the fact that he was able to kind of have this kind of impromptu gathering with media and he kind of got to speak on what the

contract situation is and revealed like, hey, you know, my agent, David Mulligeta, he's been trying to reach out to the Cowboys. The Cowboys don't want to speak to him. They only want to speak with me. Very funny. Also, the Jerry Jones thinks that right now is the time that you can have this pissing contest with David Mulligetta of all agents. I don't know if that's going to work out for you. And I'm just waiting for the update. Like you said, at some point now, between now and September, but we're going to get that update that he's going to get this four or five year deal, you know, that's going to pay him 42, $42 million per year. It's going to be like 90% guaranteed.

It's going to be like that Prescott where you've got this basically like no trade clause. I can never be franchised tag. Like, Malikana's going to rake you over the polls for this just so that way you can come out and say, see, I've got this really expensive shiny edge rusher that I'm paying at the top of the market. This is what it means to be a cowboy. And we would have, we've wasted all this time up to that point because you could just get the deal done now. I remember last year I wrote a story about Dak Prescott and the negotiations

and the history of Jerry Jones negotiating with star players. I spent a lot of time writing about this, and this was like a couple days before the season, I think. But like you said, like you just laid out, Dak Prescott signs like a couple days before the season. He gets all the money he wanted and maybe even more money. That's how it's going to work out. And then we have another owner talking about a Star Passrrrrrrrrrisher

who wants some money, and that's Mike Brown, the Bengals owner, came out talking about Trey Hendrickson. who did not show up to Bengals, scamp the Bengals reported this week, but Trey Hendrickson was in North Florida. And he was basically saying that, I think the deal is going to get done. It's just a matter of time.

But now that T.J. Watts has been signed, and he's been signed for $41 million, and we saw Miles Garrett could sign. We saw these past rushes are making a lot of money right now. And I don't know if the deal is going to get done necessarily. We had Man Tides, Hayo, who is on Good Morning Football, who also played with Hendrickson in New Orleans. Orleans, apparently talked to Hendrickson and he and Hendrickson said the offer was

egregiously low, like extremely low, which I, like reading the T lease, I'm assuming like it's somewhere in the 20 millions, maybe high 20 million, which is about 15 million below market value at this point after all these guys signed. So I'm wondering, what do you think? How do you think this deal is going to play out? And if you were the Bengals, would you jump at the chance to sign Trey Hendrickson at the top of the market deal? Or would you continue to play hardball like they are? I mean, to me, if I'm the Bengals, if you've walked, it out this far. You can't bend now. You can't. You can't be in now, right? Like, and if I'm Trey Hendrickson and I, you know, I've tweeted about it. Obviously, I've written about it with

training camp storylines and the whole deal. But like, I already did my solid for this organization. Yes. I basically, I played on a prove-it deal basically for the last two years, not just last season. It's when I played without guaranteed money for basically the last two years. It was just my game checks. And not only did I play, I produced, at least on sack production alone, as well or better than everybody else in the NFL. Now, does that make him the best edge rusher? No, right? A lot of this is kind of him just tearing off up the field.

He's stopping the run, quote, unquote, on the way to the quarterback, right? Like, definitely not the best edge setter in the league. But he's getting after the QB and he produced at a high level. And he's basically the only cornerstone player left from those early runs with the Bengals from that 2021 team that got some deep. Right, on the defensive end, I should say. So yeah, if I'm Trey Hendrickson, I've played nice. with you guys on the assumption that you would make due on the back end.

And now, as the Bengals, this is what happens when you ask guys to play on Prove It deals. After two years of putting together 35 combined sacks, you got to pay me. You got to pay me like a guy who got 35 sacks over two years. Yeah. And that means it. Yeah. And that means that when T.J.

Watt gets $41 million, even if I'm not making $41 million, you got to pay me more. You got to pay me 35 plus. And you've got to really guarantee money. Right. And I kind of detailed this in the training camp storyline thing, but if I'm the Bengals, not only based on my public posturing, can I not bend?

At this point, they've structured all their guaranteed money to be done after the 2026 season. If you're Trey Hendrickson, three years of guaranteed money is the ask. I'm not playing on your timeline anymore. You're going to retire me as a Bengal and pay me what you're supposed to pay me.

$40 million over three years. You're going to have guarantees into the third year. And if that's where the sticking point is, then I just don't know how you possibly get this resolved. And now if you're trained Hendrickson, because an older edge rusher just got paid, you cannot show up to training camp without a new deal. Right? You have to make the Bengals hurt for this.

The Bengals have leverage, though. They drafted a guy in the first round, you know, to play. What's going on with that guy? I think the last time when it was on Instagram, that's all that he's in college station, you know, he's going to an indoor practice facility. Yeah, Shamar Stewart also unsigned and Mike Brown was talking about him. And like, I guess the hang up is how his money would be affected if he got in trouble off the field, which, like, I don't know.

Like, they're trying to set a precedent that's not there, and we have precedent around the league that the sort of deal just doesn't get done. Like, this is not usually included. So I'm on Stewart's side on this part, on this thing. I'm on Hendrickson side. Like, I don't know if the Bengals are in a position to kind of play hardball with these guys when we know about their defensive problems and how reliant on their pass rush, they're going to be this season.

I don't know how they're a viable contender without these two players. Well, really without Hendrickson, because I, you know, you know, Stewart's a rookie, and we don't know how he's going to contribute. And obviously his offseason has been derailed by the contract negotiations. But without Hendrickson, like, I don't know if this is a playoff team, to be honest. It's not a playoff team as it currently stands just based on the defense. If we're projecting that it's going to be anything like what it was the last couple of years without X-R Hendrickton available.

And then you bring in a Shamar Stewart, like you said, who you need, not just because Henderson's going through his contract issues, but Sam Hubbard retired this all season. And like, you don't have the edge depth right now. You don't have a number two guy you can rely on. Joseph Osai, I think, was a good idea a couple of years ago since he's been injured. We just haven't seen the kind of production that I think that some of his advanced metrics kind of suggested early in his career that he might be a breakout guy. He hasn't been that player. So you need a Shamar Stewart there.

Obviously, you need Trey Hendrickson. And unfortunately, the owner of the team is putting out quotes like, we're not going to pay a guy to sit in jail. And I'm looking around like, does Shamar Stewart have a warrant that nobody else knows about? Like, what kind of quote is this? Like, if Baltimore said that about Mike Green, okay, I get it, right? There's a murky enough history to where if that was a sticking point in contract talks, even though I don't like it from a player's perspective, I understand the teams and their angle on this. The same thing was like the bills of Max Hirsten, right?

Cloudy history when you were younger, if we want to protect ourselves or if that's the argument between their contract situation, I get that. I don't understand what the issue is for Shamar Stewart. It would be one thing if you said, we don't want to get it. guarantee a contract for a guy who have four and a half sacks out of college. That would be funny for me. If you said, I'm in jail because of his sack told him.

Exactly. That would be funny for me. But hey, man, you drafted this guy, what? 17th overall. You got to pay what you pay 17th overall picks. You don't get to try to make a new precedent for this guy. And I'm glad that he left. Again, the only way to change the behavior for these owners is you have to threaten to

withdraw labor. Hendrickson and Stewart, I think ultimately will end up showing up and it's going to be on their terms because the Bengals just don't have much many other options. And I don't know if anybody in that building wants to continue to show up and look a Joe Burrow in the face who's in the middle of maybe a career renaissance right now, the best years of his career, and say,

we're not giving you a chance to win a Super Bowl after we paid you because these defensive guys are getting a little too uppity about how much money they want to make. Yeah, it's another situation where I think it shouldn't be complicated, but the Bengals are making it more complicated. And I think to their detriment. We also had some other extension signed recently, George Garloftus signed four years 88 million.

Zach Tom got the same exact deal. Four years, 88 million. The Packers Offense Blindman. Sauce Gardner signs four years for 120 million. That's 30.1 million per year, which is 0.1 million more than Stingley got earlier in the offseason. I feel like that was very notable and very designed. And then Garrett Wilson gets four years, 130 million.

That's 32.5 million per year. A couple more million than Higgins got, but a few less than... Where are you at with him as a player? I have a hard time with Garrett Wilson. Garrett Wilson, like, clearly very talented. Yes, he's very talented. I think he's a high end number two.

I don't know if I would feel confident. And if I had him as my number one, I don't know if I'd feel confident in us being like a championship offense. I don't know. That might be harsh because we haven't seen him with good quarterback play. The tape checks out. He gets open. He catches the ball.

He's dangerous after the catch. I think maybe it's a little prejudice on my part, like the body type. He just looks like a skinny guy. He wears those big ass sleeves, too, which makes him look a little skinnier. Maybe that's the issue, is his aesthetic, but I think this is a good deal. Like, he got paid less than D.K. Metcalf, and I've made my feelings on D.K. Betcalf very clear.

That's fair. I think he's a better player than D.K. That's fair. And I think maybe, and this is where it's like, all right, I don't want to be the guy that's just, you know, holding up a spreadsheet. Like, oh, this is a couple million too much, right? Like, there does come a point where even if I think that I would rather he'd be making Jalen Wattle money, you know, which he got paid, you know, he got paid about 84

million, I believe, 85 million over three years. But I mean, it's what? The difference of $4.5 million, like I guess you can live with that. I do think that his ceiling is much higher than a guy like Waddles, or at least, you know,

to do this point in their career, given off how they produced throughout their first, you know, a few years in their career. I do struggle with what Garrett Wilson as a lead receiver looks like, right? Like, I don't know if Garrett Wilson lead receiver is enough for an offense.

And I guess that this year is going to be a great test case and how much you can get out of Garrett Wilson being an elevator for a flawed for a limited quarterback, especially when you know you're going to be paying a big money in the future. So it'll be fascinating to see. I think he is a high-end number two. I think it's high-end number two with really no ceiling as a number one, which is fine. I just struggle with what $30 million for that kind of player is going to mean for building

out the rest of your offense. Yeah, but I feel like when you're the Jets, you're kind of being a hard place just because you need office of talent. And being good players. Like if Malik neighbors doesn't improve on his rookie season and it's kind of the same guy over the next couple of years, the Giants still have to pay him because they don't have any choice without him. So I think it's one of those situations. The Soss Gardner deal, I mean, I'm willing to overlook last year, but last year was an issue.

Like, I would be very concerned. I know I think he was dealing with injuries, but like the tackling was bad. I don't think he was as good in coverage. So I do want to see him bounce back before I can fully judge that deal because I think last year could be a confound. I think that might have been, yeah. I think she was a little, little lactant motivation once things started going sideways. But he's not better than Stacey.

And Stigley got 0.1 million less than him per year. So I don't know. That's a good deal for the Texans, I guess. Another bit of news, Tyron Matthew retired. Philip Rivers also retired. I thought he was already retired, but he retired as a charger officially.

I don't know if that delays his Hall of Fame clock. But, yeah, just thoughts on Tyron Matthew. Like, I think Tyron Matthew is one of the best players of the 2010s. I think he's one of the more important players. Because, like, he made that Cardinal, secondary in the middle of the decade, which was one of the more important teams in the league over that span. And then I don't think he deserved enough credit for the chiefs kind of getting over that hump. I say it's a hump because they had the one year where they didn't win the championship when Mahon started.

But then they went in 2019, he really changed that defense and allowed Spags to kind of get into the two high stuff, the man coverage stuff. And like everything that Spags has been known for over the last couple of years. So Tyron Matthew, I just think is leaving behind a very good legacy in the NFL. What were your thoughts on Matthew as a player? you see him making the Hall of Fame eventually? To answer the second question first, I was literally just noodling on that as you were talking, right? Like, this guy is probably as much of as fringe of cases you can have in the modern era.

100% right. Like, I think that sometimes we throw our own the terminology of Holla very good, almost as a backhanded compliment. I don't want to use that terminology because I think of it almost like as a backhanded compliment of like, good but not good enough. Because this is a guy that, to me, is one of the defining players of his decade to me, right? You talk about the versatility, the tackling. You think about all the teams that have tried to get a Tyron Matthews-player-esque players, right?

Like, Jamal, people are trying to find a Jamal Adams player. Jamal Adams was brought into the league to be a Tyrant Matthew type of player, right? Like, he is his own archetype. Buda Baker, in a lot of ways, is in the Tyron Matthew archetype. The safety slot corner architect. A 1,000%. A guy who can blitz, a undersized guy who will show up and fit the run, who can go play the ball in the air. He's very versatile, very multidimensional as a player.

Like you said, when Spagnola got to Kansas City, the defense was basically like the Honey Badger defense. Because a lot of stuff that worked was stuff that worked because Tyrant Matthew could do all these different things, right? I will put together these reels when I was working at PFF, this guy running all these crazy cover two rotations because you can use Matthew as a backer basically from safety depth. He could use them as a half guy.

Right. He was able to paper over so many issues, not just in Kansas City, but in his time at Arizona as well, right? Like, you look at those old pictures and it's all those guys from that era of football, Tony Jefferson at his best. You get Patrick Peterson. You have Tyrant Matthew there.

And I think that Matthew was one of the lead guys when you think about impact play on the defensive end. And a guy that we all, you know, we always throw around being ahead of your time. You think about the way the slot defenders are being used in the league now. And like, he kind of set up what it is to be a modern slot or a kind of hybrid safety. in the modern context now. So, like, I can't say enough good things about him. I don't know if he makes the Hall of Fame, like you said. I mean, if you're talking about the 2010s, man,

you cannot have a conversation about the defensive side of the ball and not have Tymer Matthew's name come up pretty early. He's in my Hall of Fame. I'm going to say that. And I have a take. I feel like with guys like this who, like, we're successful in the NFL, I'm not talking about other guys, but, like, guys who were not only successful in the NFL to this degree,

but were also so impactful in college, I think that should be factored into the equation. That's what the basketball Hall of Fame has football beat is that they can honor the college career as part of your holistic, just the story of you as a player, a lot better than we do in the league. And I understand why it's different for the NFL, but man, it would be nice to have a guy like that to have his college career be just as much a part of what defines him as what we saw in the NFL. Yeah, I'm not saying like Tim Tebow should be in the Hall of Fame because of what he did in college. But I think like when that's an added layer to it, it should be considered. and I think one of the more interesting things was like how the defenses that he was on, when he went out with injury, especially with Arizona because he had a lot of injury problems,

they fell apart. Like I believe, I should have looked this up before the pod, but I'm pretty sure he got injured in that 2015 season, and their defense just got torn apart by the Panthers in the NFC championship game. And I think it's because Tyron Matthew wasn't out there. And the chief were one of the worst defenses in the NFL in 2018. He comes to the team. Obviously Spags has also added to the equation,

and replaced Bob Sutton as defensive coordinator. But the identity totally changes. They become a way better pass defense. And I think that ultimately got them over the hump where they won the championship the next year. I don't think he's the most important player on that defense. That was Chris Jones.

I don't think he's the most important player on the whole team. That was Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelsey and Tyree Kill. But you could make the argument that he was the fifth most important player on maybe the best team of that era for the championship. If we're saying this era, the Eagles domination kind of ended it.

So, yeah, I would put Tyrone Matthew in my Hall of Fame. And another guy I would put in my Hall of Fame is Philip Rivers, who retired as a charger. I don't know how you ranked the 20, I think it was 2004 draft class of quarterbacks. It's Ben Roths, Granger, and Eli Manning. But I think Philip Rivers is the best of all three of them. So I would put him in my Hall of Fame. I don't think he had the greatest career of all three of them because he didn't win a Super Bowl like the other two did.

But I judge the players based on what they did as individuals. And I think he's 100% of Hall of Fame. He's one of the five best quarterbacks for about a decade. I think that he should make the hall, right? Like this is where the QE wins stuff becomes as thorny as it can be. And one of the reasons why it's important that we don't get so hung up about how many wins you get in the playoffs. Like Philip Rivers was literally on and even playing field with Drew Brees at his best, with Peyton Manning at his best, with Tom Brady at his best. Like at least regular seats from week one to week 17 at the time, he was just as good as everyone.

one of those guys. And I think that being in the AFC, you know, and we talk about some of these other young quarterbacks when we were at the Super Bowl, we had that conversation about Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson, these guys in the AFC who, no matter what you do from September to December, you know you've got to go see 15 at some point, right? And there's nothing more dejecting than knowing that you could have an MVP caliber year and that you might not get there because you've got to go see the guy that's better than everybody else, right? So I think that Philip Burbers is a victim of that, but if you look at the counting stats, if you think about some of the most iconic moments

over his career in the 2000s, into the early 2010s, before the, you know, kind of the makeup of that team in San Diego started to change. I mean, he's right there with all those guys. And if he gets just one of the two Super Bowls that like an Eli Manning got, then it's not even a question, right?

Because he would be checking every other box. But the fact that he's the one guy from that era who ended his career without having a Super Bowl run, I think that that ultimately might be what keeps him out, but I would not be surprised at all. If people are able to appreciate what he was during that time and give him a Hall of Fame not. Yeah, I would call Eli Manning like a right place, right time, hall of fame guy.

And I think Philip Rivers is a wrong place, wrong time guy. Like being in that AFC, his best team, the 2007 chargers that lost to the Patriots that undefeated team in the AFC championship. And by the way, he played on a torn ACL in that game. Exactly. Like that should get you in the Hall of Fame, too. But yeah, I'm a big Philip Rivers guy. I think he should definitely be in the Hall of Fame.

We're going to take a break. And then after that, we're going to come back and do a watchability draft of teams, but not for the regular season. That's like a totally different exercise. Maybe we'll get to that in late August or early September. We're going to do a preseason watchability draft of teams, which I think is a totally different thing because we want mess, we want to see slot.

We want to see controversy. We want to see QB competitions, which don't happen on good teams. So after the break, we're going to do that. All right, welcome back. We are officially, I think we are a week away from the first preseason game, the Hall of Fame game is next Thursday. Right around the corner. Are you excited for you?

You've been studying film. You got any predictions on the game? I have never in my life been excited for a Hall of Fame game. I cannot imagine an NFL game with less interest, but from your boy, than the Hall of Fame game on a year-by-year basis. It's literally the worst football game played every year. It's the worst. Like, nobody plays in it. Like, none of the starters play.

It's bad. I don't even know who's in it. Exactly. I have two teams, and I would believe that they were in it. You can tell me it's a scrimmage between the start. the cowboy's offense and Cowboys defense, and I will believe you. But real Preseason game. Now, that's some football.

That's some real football that way. I can't wait to dig into. But, yeah, we're going to draft teams based on watchability. We're going to draft five teams each. Should we do Snake Draft or do you want to just go back and forth? I don't know. We can go back and forth. All right, let's just go back and forth.

I'm going to give you the honors. I'm going to let you make the first pick. Who you're going with? Who's the team that you are most excited to watch in preseason? And you could base this off of, you know, a young quarterback you're interested in seeing, a young rookie player you're interested in seeing, some competition that you're, you want to see play out.

Who is your first team that you're going to be seated for their first and second and maybe even third playoff game? You know, I usually don't just go with where the quarterback competition is because like you said, sometimes it can be a little deceptive, right, going off of the practice, whether it's the games or the joint practices, right? Because oftentimes it just comes down to which way is the coach leaning, right? It doesn't always have to do with how guys are actually performing in competition, but just how they feel about their comfort level with guys.

I think that for me, though, like the cults are probably number one. Like, I just have to see what kind of a wreck this year might be in Indianapolis. And I think that these guys are going to have to play in the preseason if you're trying to have an honest competition. Because Anthony Richardson, at least if he's available to go in training camp, that's a guy that no matter how many years he's got in the league, based off some of his issues on a week-by-week basis, this guy needs reps. You need live game reps. I need to know that you can throw a dig when you need to throw a dig. I need to know that you can put the ball in the seam when it's time to and actually give it to our guys. I need to know, you're not going to freak out under pressure, you know, and do something reckless or put the ball on the ground.

And I want to see when you're in a competition, which is something that's very new for him, right, opening the season with the competition. I want to know how you react to that. And I want to see how Shane Stuyck and manages all this, right? You think about the benching and all the messaging problems. I need to see how this team is going to manage what could be a really mess. S.C. quarterback competition between two guys that are, if we're being honest, they're probably having a mid-off on a day-by-day basis. I mean, I think that would be an improvement. I don't know if there were some clips going around. It was like their first throws of some like drill work and they

both just like totally missed the throw. They were throwing at the same time, which like added to the hilarity of it all. But I do think like Anthony Richardson, his performance of preseason will be informative just because his issues are just so blatant. Like can the guy completely a pass? Can he complete a short pass? And if he can, if he checks that box and like, I'm not saying he has to be Joe Burrow accurate, but if he's like, I don't know, the 25th most accurate quarterback. We can work with that.

That's something I can work with. So I think we will be able to tell based off that. And I'm not interested in watching Daniel Jones play preseason football. I'm not interested in watching and play regular season football, but I do think the competition will be interesting to watch. By the way, Chris Ballard, year 9 GM of the Colts is preaching patience. Patience. Patience.

Just a couple more years. What a job, man. The best job in sports, man. The GM, who's like, has it in with the owner. I know they're obviously changing owner, but he had it in with Ursa, best job in sports. Because you're never playing. You're just never playing. Him, Chris Greer, Terry Fontenow, like, you just get to hang out, right?

Like, at this point, you're just showing up to the office. Like, as long as I'm well-dressed and I keep a smile on my face, I don't think the owner really cares what I'm doing around here. No, it's like living the dream. Like, they're basically doing, I know they're doing actual drafts, but it's like, imagine, like, you got paid just to sit around and do mock drive. and make bad decisions and hand out and do what we do on Twitter and complain about contracts and stuff. All right, my pick, I'm looking at my board right now. The Colts

were the first off my board. I'm going to go with the Browns. I mean, this is the... Yeah, this is definitely watching a car accident. Yes, yes, I don't think the quarterback play is going to be good, but I will be watching from minute one to minute 60 every Browns game.

Just because of... I mean, you have Shador Sanders, who I guess is fourth on the depth chart, the most intriguing fourth-string quarterback we've ever seen in NFL history. You have Dylan Gabriel, whose name I almost just forgot, even though he was technically drafted, the head of Shador Sanders, and sits ahead of him in the depth chart.

We have Kenny Pickett trying to reprise his role, trying to get back to that first round magic that he added with the Steelers. Then you have Joe Flacco, who's still doing it. I thought Joe Flacco would retire 10 years ago, and he's still out there. He's not the oldest guy, but even compared to Aaron Rogers, I feel like he's the most ancient playing QB that we're going to have in the elite.

He doesn't move at all. Like, Aaron Rogers kind of plays like Joe Flacco played during his prime now. He just doesn't move. I remember the talking point in Baltimore when I was living there during like the heyday of the Flacco. His Flacco elite era was like, this guy actually like really care about football as much as these other quarterbacks. And somehow he's still playing. He's outlasted all these other quarterbacks. So yeah, I'm interested in seeing that.

I mean, the rest of it, I don't really care about the Browns, to be honest. I'm just, I guess I'm just most fascinated about like how do you even logistically put together? together an honest quarterback competition with this many guys that you want to get a look at, right? Like, do you give them each a quarter? Every game? That's what I'm like, rotate. Do you pull up? Do you actually play Joe Flacco into print? Like, are you actually going to glean anything interesting from a 38-year-old Joe Flacco in preseason action? Probably not, right? And now what you're going to see is, Kenny Pickett basically like trying to hold off these young guys from getting him cut, you know,

basically. Because I don't think, I mean, you're not going to keep all four of these guys. I don't think. Kenny Pickett, does you know good as a practice squad quarterback if you've got two rookies? You'd probably rather have those two guys if they can beat them out for the spot, right? And you're not going to have them as an emergency QB in that scenario either. So now it's like a Kenny, a desperate Kenny Pickett in preseason ball. We have an opportunity to see interceptions that we've never seen before. And I can't wait for it.

I really can't wait for it. No, no, it's going to be intriguing television. It's going to be like watching a car crash like you compared it to you. All right. So I got the Browns, you got the Colts, so who's your next pick? Next one I'm saying in the AFC, I'm going with the Raiders, and this is really like Chips Kelly specific, right? Like, I think about just what it was at the end of Philadelphia

where like every defense just knew. Oh, if you're in this formation, these are the two runs you've got. This is the one play action you've got, the three dropback passes. They had mesh, and then they had like the mesh where like the pivots, they run the pivots out. Exactly. Exactly.

I mean, he basically turned into like an old school air raid coach It's like, oh, we only run eight plays. But if we master these eight plays, no defense can stop him in the NFL very quickly reminded him that that's just not how this works at this level. Even in San Francisco, right? Like we saw a very bland, very stagnant version of his offense before he left for the college ranks. But if you watched him once he got to UCLA, certainly this year at Ohio State, I think

we saw a guy that really spent some time in the lab trying to figure out what the next iteration of the Chip Kelly offense needed to look like. And in that championship run last season, in Ohio, I saw a guy that had a better understanding of how to use personnel, right? Not just because Jeremiah Smith is like this prodigal talent at wide receiver, but even a son of Will Howard, right? Like, I think during the back half of the year, Michigan lost notwithstanding, for the most part, you got very efficient dropback passing Will Howard because he was

able to tee up the passing game in a way that really worked for his quarterback's limitations and strengths. I'm really fascinated to see what that's going to be like with the guy like Gino, which is a different profile of NFL quarter. back, then he had either in Philadelphia or San Francisco. This is a guy that if you design it up and you tell Gino, hey, if you want to throw the dig, we trust you to throw the dig, he'll let it rip. I'm really fascinated to see what that's like for Chip Kelly in a prove-it situation,

Pete Carroll's in a prove-it situation, Geno Smith's in a proven situation. So it might not necessarily be watching Smith in preseason games, but I want to see what Kelly is designing to be kind of like the bread and butter of this offense. And I think it will be, we'll be able to glean some really interesting information. from that throughout the preseason. Yeah, and I think because of how things went in like the last two years in Philadelphia and then obviously the one year in San Francisco, I think we forget like how that offense looked that one magical year where Nick Foles goes 27 touchdowns to interception.

That Washington game, that Washington game on Monday Night Football was like something like never seen in the, never ever seen in the NFL. Yeah, and like they never really got back to that. I remember like the swinging gate formation. They were busting that out. They were hurrying up. Like it just feels like he like had those ideas and then like stop using them. I don't know.

I don't know how it went. But like, when Nick Foles got in there later in the year, they were bombing the ball down field. I remember that Raiders game where I think Foles threw for seven touchdowns and like Riley Cooper was getting, Riley Cooper was catching touchdowns. I know what a guy's remembering dude. That's the name for guys.

That's a bad one. That's the only way to lose remembering guys is by Rayleigh Cooper. OJ Simpson. OJ Simpson. But no, they were bombing the ball down fields. I'm really interested in seeing how that looks and how Gino Smith kind of operates in that offense. I feel like they're going to be an interesting team to watch all year long.

They were also on my board here. But I'm going to have to pivot now because of that. I'm going to go with the bears. I'm going to go with the bears. And I just want to see what the offense looks like and how it compares to Ben Johnson's offense in Detroit. We're going to see under center. We're going to see more shotgun. I know we're not going to see the offense, obviously,

but we're going to see some base plays and maybe like the stuff that they kind of major in on first and second down. I'm really interested to see how that looks and how Caleb looks in year two is going to be more accurate on some of these throw. He's going to be missing throws downfield like he did last year. And how does he look on the under center drops, like the footwork? I know he's got some practice with that. And I thought he was pretty good with it. Like I thought he was very convincing with his play action fakes and like tension of detail was there. But I want to see how it looks in the Ben Johnson offense.

So yeah, that's really the only reason I want to watch. I don't really have interesting. No, I mean, it makes some sense. And like you said, he's given a lot of quotes. He gave a lot of quotes right when he was hired, right? Like don't expect a one-for-one copy of what you saw in Detroit. But then you look at the depth chart. And it's like, I mean, you went out and dropped Colson Loveland.

Cole Commet does merit getting a lot of playing time, even if you don't think he's an actual top tier tight end. Like, he is a functionally usable tight end, both in the passing game and as a blocker. And I think Loveland's going to need some time to learn what it's like to be an NFL tight in anyways, even though he has a pretty versatile skill set. You bring in all these veterans on the interior of offensive line, probably to do some run game stuff that you did in Detroit.

Like, yeah, it might not be as much like under center stuff. because that's just what Jared Goff's deal is a little bit more comfortably, is Undercenter runs to play action passes. But I think you're pretty clearly trying to build maybe a more spread version of that. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that either. To me, I understand why you don't necessarily want to set an expectation because Detroit's offense was just gangbusters, basically for the last few seasons. So you don't want to mention that and have people conflate the scheme of the offense

with the expectations of the performance of the offense. but to me the best way to use these guys is exactly what you had then. You want to use, I think, DJ more as your kind of movable chess piece, a guy that can run a bunch of option routes. You can get the ball to underneath. You can design touches for,

similar to what they did for Amonraa St. Brown. And to me, you want Romodendze to be a guy that you can go challenge on the perimeter, the way that I think they always hope that a Jameson Williams might turn into. And, you know, they ended up bringing in a host of other guys to be a true X in that way when they found out the JMO,

maybe just couldn't kind of handle that kind of use and a use and more is kind of like your design shot play player. So I'm really fascinated to see what that works out. Like you said, we're not going to get the full menu in the preseason, but the use of tight ends I'm really interested in. What you show me in the run game, is it more under center or is it more gun? What are you actually trusting Caleb Williams to go out and execute in the preseason context? That's the stuff that I think will be really important for us,

just to try to set the table for what the bears might be on that side of the ball this year. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And I want to see Caleb Williams. I feel like he was like one of the highlights of the preseason last year. He made a bunch of highlight real throws. And I think we're going to see something similar. So that will be exciting to watch.

Who is your third pick? My third pick here. I'm actually, I'm going to the NFC 2. And this one is less about the offensive side of the ball, right? Like, this is probably my only defensive pick. I'm going with the 49ers here. And to me, this is about the guys that are going to be playing in the preseason. With all these offenses and quarterbacks, a lot of this is kind of conditional on,

hey, we know we're only going to see this maybe for a quarter at a time per week. And the rest of what we're gleaning is going to be from these training camp practices. For San Francisco, for the young guys they're bringing in, for some of the fresher faces they're bringing in, for bringing back Robert Salah to be the defensive play caller, I want to see what that looks like, totally separate from the players that we know and trust. I don't need to see Diomador-Linor. I know what he is at the corner. I obviously don't need to see Fred Warner.

That's the best linebacker in football. You don't have to do anything. I want to see Michael Williams in every preseason game. Are you able to get after the passer now that your ankle is healthy, right? Presumably. I want to see Alfred Collins, right? Can you really take on double teams? Are you going to be an anchor point in the middle of this defense that's going to allow

Fred Warner to move more freely? And then some of the younger, less proven pieces, right? D Winters has been in and out of this lineup a bunch in this time in San Francisco. There's going to be a lot on your plate now, being the number, two linebacker now that Dre Greenlaw is gone. So I'm interested in that. You know, you've got your Malik Mustafa whenever he's able to go. If he is able to go in this

preseason, I haven't looked to see what any updates are on his health. Trey Brown is a new face plan in the nickel. So, you know, even Jaya Brown, he's flashed a lot. He's also had some health problems, but when he's been out there, you've seen a guy that would inspire enough confidence

to let you know that maybe you can move on from a Talanoa Humphunga, and it not totally cost your defense. So, yeah, a lot of question marks up on that side of the ball. Those guys are going to need to play. And I want to see if Talas still got it as a defense play caller. Right? Like, if you put the colors back on that you had when you were

at your best, are you able to summon that again? So that's really what I'm looking for more than anything. Yeah, I think the 49ers are always an interesting much. I think they're going to be one of the more fascinating teams in the regular season too. So looking forward to that. I'm going to go with my third pick. I guess I'm going to be the one that does it. I'm going to take the Giants. I'm going to take

maybe, I mean, if the Browns are the messiest quarterback situation, this is definitely the second one. And I don't know how much we're going to see of Jackson Dart, Russell Wilson, James Winston. I think it will be entertaining. I don't know. It's better than watching some no-name backup that you never like, Alex Magoo

or whatever his name was. Like, I don't want to say that. I want to see a quarterback I know that I can make fun of it. They suck, too. So I'm going to go with the Giants for that reason alone. And Belique Neighbors is exciting. So I want to see him play. Yeah, the Giants should be exciting to watch as well. And Abdul Carlson, too. Right, exactly.

So for me, number four, for me, this is my first rookie QV. I'm going with the Titans, right? And I feel like, and I said this in the training camp, so you said I put up on our website at the ringer. Like, I cannot, some people maybe brought up Baker Mayfield, and I think a lot of that was more just because his pick was more of a fate of complete than anything that he wasn't really discussed. I don't know if that's necessarily the case with Cam Ward,

as much as he just wasn't the biggest draw at the draft in terms of storylines. And I thought that maybe we'd hear a little bit more about it once he got to Tennessee, but honestly, it's been so quiet over there. You would forget that they just had the number. one overall pick and drafted a quarterback to be the new leader of the franchise. And after the news about Will Levis getting this surgery on his shoulder, there's really nothing but a clear runway for this guy to get as many reps as possible to learn what he can and can't get away with.

I don't know if we can expect a CJ Strout level rookie year. You certainly wouldn't expect just athletically for him to be as impactful as Jaden Daniels was this past season. But off play style, you know, I've made the comp to Jordan Love, even though he doesn't have as strong an arm. I've made the comp to Ben Rothesberger in terms of pocket movement and kind of the risk he's willing to take at least a young Ben Rothersberger as a comp in that regard. I want to see that style of play in a Brian Callahan offense because that's a lot of what made Joe Burrow works so well in Cincinnati, right? And if Callahan is going to try to replicate that in Tennessee with this quarterback, I want to see Cam Ward in the gun.

You know you're going to get a bunch of dropbacks. You're going to have to take some chances to make this stuff work. what can you get away with? What can't you get away with? And just how does that kind of play style coming from Miami articulate itself in the league when you know you're going to have a limited wide receiver core outside of Calvin Ridley

and you're probably going to have to score a lot of points if you want to be in the game based off this defense's limitations as well. Yeah, I'm hoping Cam Moore gets a lot of playing time because he's like one of the most exciting quarterbacks to watch. The film was just fun to watch, which made it surprising that he didn't get more taught before the draft and after the draft.

I think part of it was there wasn't a viable QB2. There was no debate there. There was no friction there, which is usually like when we get riled up. The Baker Mayfield draft, we were yelling at it. We were too busy yelling at each other

about Lamar and Josh Allen. Exactly. I guess to pay attention to Baker Mayfield. But I thought he got plenty of talk back then. It was really hyped up, especially by the analytics guys. So you took the Titans who, they were on my board a little bit lower on my board

just because their back of quarterbacks are Brandon Allen and Tim Boyle. I mean, I thought those guys were the same guy. The second that those guys strap up the chin strap, the channel is being. change. Please make no mistake about that.

Okay. He's not here for a long time. He's here for a good time. I'm going to take the Packers. And I think they are one of the more fascinating teams on offense because you have the offensive line questions and who's going to start there. The wide receiver rotation has just been a very fascinating thing for the last couple of years.

Obviously, to bring in Golden into the situation, I want to see how he's kind of used and where he fits in. And then Jordan Love, like seeing Jordan Love fully healthy, is the accuracy problem still there? Or was that a of the injuries, did that exacerbate the problem? I want to see how he's delivering the football, how the ball's coming out.

Maybe is he scrambling a little bit more? I know you've been advocating for something like that. You haven't really liked the way he's reacted to pressure and how he's handled it. So I think there's a lot to watch, especially on the offensive side of the ball for the Packers this preseason. I like that. I mean, I would say both sides of the ball, honestly. Like, this is a team that has all of the requisite pieces.

They just haven't had the breakout star. Right. And again, we're going to need over the course of the season to get. get some answers on that. But to me, preseason wise, offensively, like you said, I want to see what love looks like coming in healthy. They're not on my list. Maybe they're on your board.

Like I think about Jacksonville in a similar light, even though they haven't had nearly as much regular season success as Green Bay has had. As far as just like, I want to see your quarterback in training camp, healthy again. Can you deliver on what we think you're capable of? So this will be an informative piece from that perspective. This is another team similar to Chicago. You've got a lot of different moving. pieces in terms of your skill position group.

I want to see how you're deploying guys, right? I want to see what Tucker Kraft and Luke Musgrave can be because I haven't waiting for this. Right, exactly. Clearly, I haven't waiting for this to look like 2012 New England now, you know, since these guys are drafted, because that's been the athletic potential of these two guys. I want to see that finally be, you know, kind of walked out.

I want to see what they're doing in the run game because one thing that we can say is that Matt LaFleur is basically evolved the core of its run game, almost every single season, whether Aaron Rogers or Jordan Love was at quarterback or Malik Willis from time to time. So I think that there's going to be a lot of interesting things for us to find out. And hopefully this group can finally be healthy enough for them to land on an identity that we can easily identify early in the year. And I hope that we can do that as early as this preseason. Yeah. Actually, the Jags are my next pick. Just because you said it, I might as well just reveal my last pick. I'm going to go with the Jags for everything I said about Jordan Love.

I want to see Trevor more accurate. Does he look better as a thrower just because he's healthier? And then obviously there's the Travis Hunter and how they use him, how many snaps is going to play at receiver? Are we going to see him play both sides of the ball in preseason? I don't know if that would be something I would do looking ahead at a long, grueling season where you're planning on playing on both sides of the ball. So I think the tag is going to be fascinating to watch just for those two guys alone.

I'm with you. And then for my last pick, I'm going with the team that I have probably paid the least amount of respect to. since I've been working here, and it's the Cardinals, right? Like, they have been the most interesting and least impactful. The biggest combination of interesting without it being impactful in the league, right? They do have an interesting defense. They've not necessarily had a good defense. It's just been really fascinating.

They've had these really kind of wild splits between how they perform in obvious passing situations versus how they perform on neutral downs. And it's been improving, right? Their performance on neutral downs has improved. and they've been one of the best teams in the NFL at kind of finding who they are midway through the year, right, and then being able to really lean into their identity. So you'll find them get these hot streaks. I would say that probably exists on both sides of the ball for them.

But they brought in some really young, interesting guys defensively in terms of Walter Nolan. Right, I want to see what he looks like. That's a guy who, when he's locked in, can be as good as any defensive tackle that was drafted this year. Will Johnson has a strong pedigree. Obviously, a lot of health issues. so I want to see me like NFL. Exactly. And I want to see this guy finally show up and be the player that I think he can be based

off his best tape at Michigan. But there are a lot of questions about health, about top-tier athleticism, about how much you can run defensively if he's your number one corner. And then on the other side of the ball, I don't necessarily need to see anything from Kyler Murray. I think he's kind of a known quantity at quarterback. But again, this is a team that is really played in a lot of different worlds offensively.

In the run game, they want to put a bunch of tight ends on. and really manipulate what a defense can do so they can run this power spread game. And then in the passing game, it's kind of changed on a year by year, sometimes week by week basis of what they want to be. And I think that's because they've been waiting on a true outside receiver to be the guy. And Marvin Harrison Jr. has got to be that. I don't know how many reps we're going to see of him in actual preseason action, but I'm going to be tuned into everything that's going on with training camp with the Cardinals

because I need to see Kyler Murray. If he's going to be the quarterback that everybody tells me he can be, he needs a number one wide receiver, and a player like Marvin Harrison can be that, even if he's not Julio Jones, just having a guy that you can depend on. If he's nothing more than like a DK Metcalf-esque type of player, even that might be enough to get the most out of a guy like Kyler Murray.

So that's what I'm going to be looking at for them in the preseason. No, yeah, I think the Cardinals are always a good watching preseason. And they have that one like commentator with like the impossibly deep voice, you know? Yeah, I love that guy. I'm on the East Coast, obviously, Diatis on the West Coast. But I'm 12 midnight. I'm watching this guy talk about. I'll watch the second half just based on him alone, to be honest with you.

I should look up his name. But actually, I'm not going to me. He's the guy with the Deforce. That's his name. Just honorable mention, I'm going to throw one more team out there to the Saints. I really want to watch the quarterbacks. I want to watch Spencer Rattler versus Tyler Shuck. I think Spencer Rattler is going to win that competition.

I think Spencer Rattler is going to end up being the better of the two quarterbacks. I do wonder if they end up just going with Chuck because, you know, new regime and just give that guy a chance. And if he can't handle it, I mean, shit, you don't need to wait for a guy who's 25 years old to figure out the league, right? So just drop him in and see what he can do. I think that that's kind of where my mind is out with that. And then my honorable mention is going to be the Jets. We kind of talked about them briefly so I didn't want to pick them outright. But obviously, Justin Fields, new offensive system, you know, what are you going to put on Fields as plate as a passer?

Right. Pittsburgh, I think, had a really hard time trying to figure out how much they could trust him with. And if we're being honest, if you looked at the tape in the first two or three weeks of the season, the way he was working through progressions did not always look like a guy that you could put a lot on the plate of. So I'm fascinated to see what that's going to look like. But they have all the pieces to be kind of like Cardinals East, right? Yeah, yeah. The quarterback's not as good as Kyler Murray. Justin feels not as good as Kyler Murray.

You think about the run game. You think about this tricky defense trying to figure out how to attack. You think about the fact that they can be explosive if you look at how much athleticism is in their backfield. I'm really fascinated to see what they want to do offensively. And I think that we can get some good information out of them because they have

a lot of unproven commodities on that side of the ball. Yeah. It'll be interesting. They're another team where it's like how much gun are you running, how much under center are you running? Obviously, you know, they're dabbling in the Sean Peyton style of offense. So yeah, that's going to be interesting to see just how they align, basically. I don't want to watch them after the snap.

I'll watch them before the snap, but I don't need to see. have a hell of an athletic offensive line, right? Olufrey. Great athlete. Armand Mimbu, great athlete. Elijah Barrett Tucker, when he's healthy, can be a really strong guy in the interior. Even John Simpson, when he's been available, he's played at a pretty decent level. And Joe Tipman, I think they have a no weakness offensive line.

I want to see them really kind of let those guys loose and let them be the engine of this offense and see where that leads. The run game could be very interesting. I really want to, I'm really fascinated to see how they kind of weave the run threat of Justin Fields into this offense, which this offense typically hasn't had that style of quarterback in the past. And like, I don't think the Steelers really leveraged enough with Justin Fields when he was out there early on. So just to recap the draft, you have the Colts, Raiders, 49ers, Titans and Cardinals. I have the Browns, Bears, Giants, Packers, and Jags, all the other teams, the other 22 teams in the NFL.

We don't care. We're not watching. Sorry. I'm with you. All right. So that's going to do it for this episode. We will be back next week. I don't know what we're going to talk about. We're going to have actual, we're going to have an actual slate of games to look forward to the next time. I'm glad you said a slate of games and not football. I don't know how much football is actually going to be played,

but there will be games happening. It's almost that time when we can react to real football being played. I'm not counting the Hall of Fame game in that situation. That is not real football, but it's almost time. So next week, we will talk to you about something about preseason. Thanks to Christopher Sutton for producing. Thanks to Kiera Givens on socials. And thanks to Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ramkopol for additional production supervision.

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